SHORTS 17 | Andrew (AJ) Lyle, Owner/Partner of Solar Sandbox

Let's have some fun. Welcome to the LocoShortz podcast created by LocoThinkTank. In this podcast series, Loco Experience Coordinator Deb Piles will unfold bite-sized business learnings through conversational interviews with successful small business owners, topical experts, and community leaders. Together, they'll take listeners through the often crazy experience of founding and growing an enterprise or an idea. So listen in and listen up, because these small business stories may just have the secret ingredient you've been missing for your recipe for small business success. Welcome everybody to the LocoThinkTankShortz podcast, this is your host Deb Piles, and I'm excited to announce that I have AJ Lyell with us from Sandbox Solar. He moved to Colorado or to Fort Collins area in 2003 and has two engineering degrees at Colorado State University and actually stayed. So I'm super excited to introduce him because this guy is wicked smart. So AJ, if you'd give us a little bit of your background and how you got started with Sandbox Solar, that would be great. Sure, AJ Lyell, so actually one engineering degree in the story behind that was like a lot of people, you know, I wanted to get out of the Midwest and toured a couple schools out West and without ever really knowing what CSU was about, I visited it and I said, oh, that's where I want to go. So I got my mechanical engineering degree in 2009 and wasn't sure, you know, I hadn't picked, oh, this is the industry I want to work in or, you know, much less what business I wanted to go, so it's kind of more or less going to see what the market had to offer and I wasn't even sure if I was going to stay in Colorado or what, but 2009 was a horrible job for a recent graduate to start looking for jobs. So I was looking and then all my other peers were kind of, they were getting jobs, most of them, some of them weren't, you know, the caliber of job that they would have gotten a year or two prior. And so it was really just, you know, kind of, it was really upsetting and depressing. I mean, I went to a career fair, I actually thought I was going to get into wind when I flew up to Chicago for a wind conference and the year prior, somebody who had had the same internship I had had gotten a job just at that conference, you know, it was a different world in 2008, 2009, I saw people, you know, that looked a lot more professional than me with a lot more years of experience lining up to sort of apply for the same job and it just seemed like such a, it was tough, it was really, really depressing to be honest. And so I said, you know, what happened? I think I took that summer off and then, you know, I wasn't sure what I was going to do, wasn't sure what I wasn't going to do, I ended up doing two things, one got a job at a bar and then two got accepted and went to business grad school at CSU, they called it the Master of Management Practice and what it was is an MBA for recent graduates without any corporate experience. And I did that and that's been really, really helpful, you know, it exposed me to a lot of topics that I would not have known, you know, to search for and really set up, you know, gave you enough sort of tools as entrepreneurs. So, you know, I go, going back with, I guess, being an entrepreneur, you know, you can't outsource everything, you have to do so much on your own and getting that degree has really, really helped because, you gave me those tools to be dangerous, you know, not great in those fields, but dangerous enough, where you don't have to outsource a lot of bookkeeping, you know, when you set up pricing, you can understand economics, you know, it took a supply chain class and that has huge impacts on what we do as far as, you know, when do you purchase everything in bulk and one of it is it finds, you know, just in time or whatever, you know, and so all those concepts, you know, not going to see, we wanted so much in depth and it was so much, but for an entrepreneur, it's everything, you know, you can search for it all online or do whatever that's fine, but to have it brought to you and told why it's important, by people who have done it has been so, so helpful. How did you get started in solar? Well, so then what happened? Got that business masters and right before I was getting out still, I had the same problem, like, okay, I'm about, you know, to graduate or graduating, what do I do now? You know, and I think I decided, I think, I decided at that point that, you know, probably not wind, I think I had to interview maybe a couple of when jobs by a friend. He was working for this solar company here in Fort Collins, they have their US office in Fort Collins at the NSFIR, they're called Beer Soul and it was the US office of this German solar company and there's about eight people in the US office who said, hey, we're doing big things, you know, you're going to want to get in now, we're going to take over everything, this is great, I said, okay, I don't know much about solar, you know, kind of like wind, let's do this. So got in, you know, and I'm tired right away and this company, so Germany had, there are like five or 10 years ahead of the rest of the world where solar is crazy. What they used to say is, it's a country that's rising Montana with the sunshine of Oregon, but they had more solar installed than like the rest of the world combined at some point, you know, so it was just really crazy what they were doing with solar and what they did as a country was in the early teens, it's sort of like all those companies, you know, the country's built out more or less, stretched out over the world, started taking over all the other markets and the US is one where a lot of German companies have actually come to America and Denver and stuff and built a lot of huge, huge facilities. So anyways, this was a, the US branch of that German company and that German company had built the biggest solar system in the world at one point that gets surpassed every time, so he built something, but they're a pretty big player and started in as an engineer with them. And then there were other higher level issues, let's say, and within four months, so I went in as an engineer and because there's such a small group and it's one of the most smart, sort of people have ever worked with, it's helping with doing these multi-million dollar bids and doing just all this other crazy, crazy stuff, they really, really enjoy it, you know, we're, we're spying the bids and figuring out all the other nuances and it was really just creative and, you know, it seemed important and there's a lot of, I don't know if it's just a trust or like, you know, a new guy, he was a skill figure out kind of thing and we don't know the answer and he's going to hold your hand kind of thing and I loved it, I loved that, but that lasted four months. The German headquarters had to close down a bunch of worldwide offices and we were put on the chopping block and, you know, and then so I went through, it was my first, you know, part of the failed business and I learned a lot about like, oh, we tried to get a couple of us from that company started there, our own different company, solar company, we went through all those negotiations about, okay, who gets to keep the existing deals and do we get a loan from the company and all these other, you know, sort of like, sunsetting, you know, all those other activities that I had no experience with and I hadn't heard about most of it, you know, it was pretty eye-opening, you know, I was coming from that naive like, oh, there's some things down, okay, now what, you know, one of these other people a little more creative in that sense that said, no, we can, if they still value our activities, we can get some funds out of them for this and, you know, just some of the more, I guess, behind the scene things that I just had no experience with, so we started that solar company with a group of the people there and timing just wasn't right, I think time wasn't right on a lot of levels I suppose, and we got did a couple jobs, so that just wasn't going to, going to work, so that folded and one of my old colleagues, I was also, so many part of that solar company I think, he had an interest in, you know, some people call them exotic cars or vintage cars or, you know, a more higher priced cars and he had purchased a car restoration company in Berthid that was known for pre-war French cars and the mark that people recognize the most as boot gaudy, you know, because they just got bought back recently, yeah, so, you know, why is this in Berthid? Well, that sort of geographically, Colorado sort of situated between both coasts, you know, and so usually these car repair places are either West Coast or East Coast, and he had trained, so the person I knew bought it from this 80-year-old gentleman who had then trained under somebody 40 years prior, you know, so this guy was sort of the keeper of the knowledge because this stuff, it's the boot gaudy knowledge cars are made by artists and their hand-built, and so, you know, it's not like, okay, I can look in the factory manual how to do it, it's one of those things where these experts in it hold this like, this information is totally like passed down just, you know, through a spoken word, you know, there's not really great repair manuals or, you know, it's one of those things, and then the economics for these cars like, for you to drive your car to jiffywood to get your oil changed is about the same percentage of cars value, you know, and cost as these people having, you know, a car shipped out from California, New York to Colorado, you know, so it's just a different value of car, they had worked on a car that won Pebble Beach, which is a big deal, so the car sold for millions after that, and stuff like that, so I'm working there, you know, because I've been handy, on cars, you know, I was worked on my own and stuff, and so that experience, I'm probably wouldn't want to work in a car shop ever again in my life, it was interesting, it was interesting being exposed to those cars, where I've seen them in magazines and stuff a lot, but I guess I never maybe felt like, yeah, this is something I'm gonna make it creative, I saw it more as well, I guess so, let me go back to stuff, what was going on at that time, so we shut down the first old company, orc for this guy, you know, was experienced on these cars, I always thought was cool and, you know, kind of once in a lifetime in that aspect, I was trying, you know, the economy's still kind of getting back up, and I'd interviewed for more traditional jobs, and after my first couple of experiences with this group of people, you know, being able to give input in the financial decisions and being part of these big bits, and really feeling like, you know, I had a lot of value in some, you know, freedom decision making and stuff, I started interviewing for some entry-level solar jobs, which as an engineer all the times is just doing drafting, and I am simply, I said, there's no way, I mean, some of this is hubris, but I said, you know, after this other experience, there's no way for me to go back, and just start out as a drafter, like I would not find that interesting, I think I value somewhere else, and I kind of realized the only way I can do the things I think is more interesting is I have to create those opportunities for myself, that I didn't think the jobs that I would be interviewing for in this is the hubris part, my competitors would play a five years, which is a lot in the solar industry at that point, five years experience, and you know, and I say, what was your experience? Well, you know, I worked for five months as one company, then one year trying to start this other company, you know, and it just didn't translate well on paper, so I realized I get to do this on my own, so it's trying to do an energy efficiency thing with one other individual that didn't work out, so I was doing the car thing, and I did that for a couple of years, and I think at that point, you know, I realized this is not, while this is fun, you know, I kind of got everything out of it, I could, I need to find a different, different angles, then I worked with the local beverage distribution software company that kind of does, just management of all sales deliveries, inventory, et cetera, for beverage distribution companies to bet for a year, not really super excited about that, was laid off, and then I said, okay, now what? Well, the HR person who laid me off of that company calls me like two weeks later and said, hey, I knew he used to be in solar, of course, he laid me off, so he said, no, you are looking for a job, I was at some random networking event, and I met somebody who's also in the solar, you know, it's pretty young, I don't know what he wants to do, and I don't know what you didn't want to do, but why don't you two meet, that's a sure, so we met and he had, he was also an engineer, and he had just been laid off from, he was like one of the original solar companies in America, you know, they've been around the 70s, which is unheard of, they had an office in Louisville or Lafayette or something, anyways, they had laid him off, and so he was looking for something new, and I think, you know, he too wanted to be in solar, but didn't want, just to be stuck as a drafter all day, you know, that's not a very interesting way, you know, way to make a living is just drafting all day, and we don't have our people do that either, if we learn from that, that's not very interesting, and so we started that, and so, you know, so this was 2015, and I'd started with the German solar company in 2009, and even in, it was hard in 2015, you know, we're starting from early to residential customers, you know, it's okay, how long have you been around and stuff? Well, not very long, but we both, you know, have this other history to draw from, but the funny thing about solar is it's not been around for 20 or 30 years, you know, you're not, like, compared like a window company, where this window company says on five years old, you're saying, oh, you're pretty new, in solar, in 2015, there only a couple competitors that were five years old, you know, in America, it was just, it's not something that had been around for so long, so that kind of, our timing on that was probably pretty good, just because it was a little bit easier, I think, to start out without a lot of, you know, business back history then, so we started out then, yeah? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm curious as to where you came up with the name Sandbox Solar. I, well, that came with my business partner, so he had, I think it was like a week or two before we had been introduced in that, he had put that name in with the Santa Colorado, you know, in form of the LLC, you know, $100 and 30 minutes and you have your LLC, so he had put that in, and I think he has said that, well, a couple things, so solar is silicon wafers, you know, and so it goes, it's looking sand, so it plays in there, and then originally we had an idea that we're still kind of pursuing is, there's this idea of community solar, where instead of having a solar panel on your roof, you and a thousand people get together and you own a solar panel in the field, so it's playing in the sandbox, you know, and it's the way to lower barriers of entry to access to renewable energy. I love it. But it is helpful when everybody in the industry is sun this and so that, you know, I can run together for myself, so definitely having a different name and sticks out in the industry has been helpful. So what would you say are some of your biggest challenges that you've encountered? Man, your one through three is cash flow and forecasting, and after about three to four, we got a little more stable, I mean, I could have been the nights of like, you know, waking up in the like, like, is this, am I delusional? Is this ever going to work, or is this going to be, you know, a failed venture? I think nowadays are, so it depends when you ask me. So from the point of reference of today, what are our biggest issues? It's been, and it continually is trying to, without setting the timeline too far out, trying to take a point of, you know, six months or a year, what do we want the company to look like? So sort of structure and culture and responsibilities so that we know how to work to getting there. For the first few years, we grew through times year over year, and so the people we've had with us have totally been flexible and they have to because, you know, just because it's a classic case, just because we did yesterday, it's definitely not going to work tomorrow. And so we've been making a little bit more constantly, and as far as this one task is going to be a full-time person. Let's start planning for it. When do we think it's going to happen? Let's get that in place, not, not overhiring. I think the pandemic has scared a lot of people from overhiring, but we also have been really, you know, we can't afford to hire too soon and have, you know, lost productivity, but so we do a lot of cross-training and people wearing multiple hats, but that's been our goal is to try to figure out and convey to those employees, hey, this is where we want to get. Here's a time frame. This is what it's going to look like, and this is kind of our overall organization. What's going to be at that point and try to really convey that to our employees, let everybody know kind of where we're trying to go and also, you know, for us to figure out where we're going to go. Funny enough, in the first week of March 2020, we had rented a room at the Rio upstairs. We had got all the management together, had some margs, got those big easels and plans, and this we're going to do in 2020, and it's going to be great. This is a change is okay, everybody's on board, and then like three leaks later, you know, I want to, you know, crap just because it's a pandemic, and, you know, like everybody else plans, it will just switch to survival mode, it seemed, but that's where we're at now is just trying to add some organization and also sort of strategic planning to everything. Going back, I mean, in the first three years was just scramble and hardstrabble, and, you know, we need to get projects to keep this going so we can pay rent both, you know, personally and as a company. So how did you pivot with COVID? Um, you know, specifically the first couple of weeks, I think for a week or two, we, man, it all runs together. The PPP was coming, and so we kept everybody on board, we kept paying them all 40 hours a week, and we tried online learning. There's a lot of online classes for solar, so we had everybody take those and lieu of, you know, installing and going to work for pay, and so the PPP really helped to keep everybody on the payroll and paid then. Initially, we were doing, having everybody work in the field half time, and they would all drive their own vehicles versus getting in one truck, and I think around later last year, we, we still just try to keep everybody, you know, in one group. We had a lot of times where one person years trying to be a firefighter and then need to find out a couple days later, oh, I was in this firefighter class, and so he got COVID, for instance, and, uh, well, it was just like, okay, so we shut down that team. Anybody goes in contact with them until everybody got a negative, had to call the ex homeowners, you know, and say, hey, we'll keep you updated. So it was just, you know, we tried to do the nature of work, we tried to really stay as far away from the homeowners as we can, you know, we do have to, like, it's wiring, and it's, so there is some interior part when they're going walking into their house to go up in the attic. So we just try to be as safe as possible, at me time, we got any scares, we shut down, and, you know, told, kept everybody up to date, but thankfully, only a couple of guys have got it, and it was contained, it came from outside, the company had contained to them. So yeah, you know, it was, we were, we were being in energy, we were labeled critical or whatever, or whatever term I forget now, early on, essential, right, you know, so we were able to do it. So we kept on, you know, and actually our sales guy, you know, of course, pivoted to a lot more online web meetings like everybody has, you know, we've always been able to evaluate sites remotely, the software for solar had been there for a long time, where we can, we pay for super high resolution images, where we can see up to three inch details on roofs, and so we don't even get up on the roofs anymore pre-coded, and so we can do everything remotely, it's great. That's amazing, you know, yeah. I guess the one thing it did highlight, and I've heard this another from other companies was that we really relied a lot too much on like the calling over to the other side of the office type of communication, where we didn't really have like a good way of putting information in the central place for everybody to see it, and that weakness was super highlighted in COVID when for a couple weeks, we all worked remotely, and you're like, oh, I need to know this one thing, I need to call that person, and then I have to call it, you know, and it wasn't all this information should be out and open for everybody to see, and so I really made a push for us to streamline kind of operations, where it was less relying on those like being able to, you know, turn to your desk chair and ask some of your question kind of thing, we really, it did highlight the need for a better operation software. Nice, now that you guys design it, or did you bring in a consultant to do that? We're about 50% done of doing it ourselves. The problem with solar is the supporting software and systems are just not mature because, you know, it just hasn't been around a lot, you know, if you own an electrical company or a roofing company, there's, there's stuff for you industry for solar, it's just not mature enough, where people are trying, but it's just not all there, you know, out of the box, there's a lot of tweaking needed. Now, can you tell me a little bit more about your culture? Sounded to me like your cognizant of making sure that your engineers aren't just doing drafting 100% of the time, and I'd like to hear more about what what you're doing or what culture's like. So culture was really hard to, I saw the nurture during COVID because you couldn't, COVID just made it so hard to do anything, there's just resistance on every level, we're kind of getting out of that, but you know what we stress is none of this, you know, so in the hierarchy, none of this is worth dying over, and it can be, you know, dangerous work, you're dealing with life circuits, you're on roofs, sometimes very steep roofs, so, you know, it is safety, none of this is not worth trying to go a little bit faster, to save a little bit of time for anybody, and that's my biggest fear. And then it's about quality and accountability, and that can be hard, you know, but we do, it can be hard to create a culture where people are open enough to, you know, take criticism or to even admit, you know, when they did screw up, and to be accountable for that, and we really, you know, we can go back and edit, well, I mean, so the biggest thing is, it's hard to work towards, but we want working towards a culture of accountability where if somebody screws up, you know, they know that they're probably not going to lose their job for this, that we do make mistakes, but hey, everybody has a group we're going to learn from it, and we're going to talk about if we do anything, do things not to have that mistake happen again. You know, I think that is huge, because you know, for our customers, this is a pretty high dollar purchase, and it's going to be there for at least 25 years, you know, we only have one chance to do it right, you know, if we're in landscaping or something business, maybe you can say, okay, I'll leave it for next week, but for this, the ideal goal is we're there installing for two, three days, and then we're done, so you only have one chance to make it right, you know, so we do kind of want a culture of that detail I'm doing it right, and I think being in Colorado, we also have a culture of, you know, our guys like to have fun, and we've always had pretty good PTO benefits, you know, even for the new Colorado rules laid out, we're working towards this year, implementing more team goals to be able to do some fun team activities when we do reach reach those goals, you know, not really able to do that in 2020, you know, we do, we kind of, we've always started doing four 10 hour days for our installers, instead of, you know, five eighths, do I think a lot of our people really value that, like, yeah, work an extra two hours, you know, four days weeks, like at the whole, like a three day weekend, and so we've kind of, you know, we've had employees with that mentality, you know, and we've also kind of encouraged it with some of our stuff to, you know, cliche work hard, play hard, but they do, they like, you know, they like to, you know, totally trade in longer days, four days a week, for the ability to, to go camping and, and do whatever, you know, on a longer weekend. You bet, I'm surprised that more companies don't do that. So, what are your special sauces, what makes you different? Honestly, we, from materials wise, what we do is we, we, we have a little more attention to detail, higher offer, higher equipment, or the high equipment, you know, solar panels and inverters at at a medium cost, and we do it. We do, there's a couple extra things we do, usually, make it look a lot better than other systems. You know, in the way we're able to do that, I think comes down to our installers, where, I will gladly bet that our installers are some of the smartest group, you know, out there. We have just such a great group of people out on the roof and then helping out in the office. I mean, and so honestly, you know, not saying this is a business owner, but like the way we're able to do a lot of the odd projects and the price we do do, do a little bit better just because we do have like just really bright, really creative group of people, you know, that are willing to be challenged. They're willing to think a little bit different about solutions and how do we get there? And we've always been the underdog. We're getting a little bigger now, but we've been able to sort of punch above our weight class because of that because we were able to, you know, our guys can accomplish what two people of some other companies can just do to how bright and motivated they are. Nice. So they sound really invested. So what would you say your next milestone is what's your plans for growth? Oh, probably well, I haven't been to the milestones. Probably need to. I think what we, we just recently won. Well, let me go back and step in. In the end of 2020, we finished a project in Northeast Fort Collins. That was 10 times the size of our previous largest project. And a year from now, we'll have finished a project that is 10 times the size of the one we just finished, you know, so to get to that level is a milestone. We're kind of on our way there. You know, can't really do a quick blurb. But we have some internal milestones set where when we're working towards is just more sort of functional or less, less bar napkin organizational and more three-ring binder kind of smooth level that makes sense, you know. And I think, and that was kind of my, the reason I joined local and why the time was right, like I said, we were getting out of that like, you know, I got just fight, fight, fight to stay a life kind of level. And we're getting more into the level, which is always ongoing where, you know, let's think about this, think about it consciously. What, let's make the optimal decision, not just the quickest break decision, because we don't have time to really think about it kind of thing. And that's where I kind of see is, you know, moving to more of the mature company. And that's another goal for this year is just the, you know, it's, to some degree, you know, we avoid it, you know, but I think it's a part of any small company's lifestyle and any startup is, you know, when you get to that level where there's a little more, I want to say sanity, but like, it's more understood about roles and responsibilities, who were just not at the level where everybody can take care of anything, everything anymore, you know. Right, right. So, do you have any advice or tips for other business owners? No, I'm here to, I join local to get advice, not to give it. No, no, no, it's too broad. I mean, my biggest, you know, my heart goes up to a lot of, my biggest question in all that is, what does starting a business look like in 2021 compared to, you know, when I did it or, which is, at hindsight, a really stable time, you know, hard enough, a lot of the service people and service, people in the service industry, businesses and retail, you know, yeah, I know, you know, and I was in a time of my life where I felt it was, I was able to take those chances so I can't really imagine, you know, my life has changed since then. So, no, no, no, no good advice at all, you know, because it's a crazy route. I mean, there was a lot on the line starting a business and I think it's a really, really risky endeavor, you know, I cannot imagine like trying to figure that out through COVID too, you know. Right, I don't know how businesses are doing it. So, what do you do that keeps you sharp? How do you stay sharp? Well, I have finally been in, I feel like a position to last year, two years or so, is trying to set a couple, a little more work life balance and be able to say, hey, you know, this is my hobby, this is my time, you know, you have your own side hobbies to feed yourself, because I think in the first few years, I felt like it's, you know, you make it your life and it was just so close to burning out, you know, and you do need to make time, you know, for yourself and for your hobbies so that the other parts of your life don't, don't suffer for it, right? You know, you do need to be well-rounded to degree. So, that's been my, my recent thing, you know, especially when we were working from home in April of last year, it was too easy to like always be a work, because you're, you know, your kitchen table is also your office, but I really found something, yeah, no, you can't, no, so I found some value of saying, hey, like, yeah, put up some firewalls, you know, between that, and you got to do that personal time, otherwise everything suffers. So I was looking at your LinkedIn profile and I see that you volunteered at grid alternatives. Yeah. I'm more curious about that. They are, so they're a great company that is providing a value, we're not company. They're great non-profit that they do a couple things and I hope to work with them more soon as they sort of, they deploy a lot of solar, so I was helping them install solar on the weekend at one of the city for columns buildings, what the city did was they turned around and they would use that energy at low-income people's homes to offset their energy bills, but what grid alternatives does in general is the, so you know, they install solar for one, you know, and promote that, and they also provide education to people so that they can go out and work for companies such as mine or other solar companies, you know, so they kind of provide that, because in solar, and we've seen this a lot, there's no great, like, tech school you can go to and then come out and be a great solar installer. It's just so new that a lot of it's just on the job training and it encompasses electricity and, you know, engineering and math and then the trades on building things and it's just such a wide range of stuff where, you know, and you have to learn for so many different things. Alternate is helping, you know, thinking about like a apprentice school is providing qualified people that can jump in to companies like mine or other companies and get a, you know, a well-paying job in the industry from their experience with them. So they've done, they've done several things in the area, several pretty big projects. So, AJ, I just absolutely love what you're doing and I would like to tell the listeners like how can they get up our whole to view and reach you and you know, the easiest way is you can go to our website, www.sandboxsolar.com. You know, we have our office phone number there. You can drop a line in the question box, you know, you can reach out as the world opens up a little bit more and more. I used to go to green drinks a lot, which is a pretty fun place. It's used to be a meet-up, you know, and you can check out local companies downtown and get a beer once a month, you know, and learn about what they're doing and meet with other people who are green-minded, you don't have to be in the industry or anything. And then also, I used to be a part of EndCrest when they had meetings in person. So Odels once a month too, there's some of the events I gave to you that can be seen at or you can come by the powerhouse right on a on college just south of the river by the new whitewater raft park. I'm gonna come by and check out our campus and see some solar, yeah. Beautiful. Well, AJ, I really appreciate your time and thank you for sharing and hopefully some of your insight can reach out to other business owners in the community. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Locoh Shorts Podcast. This is Kurt Baer, founder of the Locoh Think Tank and host of the Locoh Experience Podcast. If you or someone you know would be a great guest for our show, or if you'd like to know more about our small business owner, pure advisory chapters at Locoh Think Tank, please visit our website at Locoh Think Tank.com or email us at connect at locohsinktank.com. That's locohthinktank.com. If you've enjoyed this series, don't forget to subscribe. We love great reviews on Apple Podcasts for wherever you're listening. And until next time, stay look.