The LoCo Experience EP 285 | Losing Your Big Brother on 9/11 - Craig Woodall's Journey of Grief

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Today, I'm here recording from the Fort Collins Food Truck Rally, where we've got the tank parked in a row of food trucks and trailers, because this episode comes out tomorrow, and we needed to use the just-in-time machine.

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For this week's episode, I sat down with Craig Woodall, retired educator, speaker, coach, and author of the new book, Overcome Rebuilding Hope After Losing My Brother on September 11th.

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Craig retired as the principal of Rocky Mountain High School in Fort Collins, where he'd served for 12 years.

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with plans to initiate a leadership coaching business, and perhaps write a book about leadership as part of the plan.

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But his mind had other plans, and after he retired, the first priority was a book that forced its way to the front of the line.

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Overcome was the result, and it's full of stories of grief and connection, and challenge and resilience, and ultimately, personal growth.

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It is a leadership book, but not in the common sense.

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And the book and Craig's focus focuses on the notion that the most important person for you to lead is yourself.

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Craig is a great conversationalist and a servant-hearted leader from the start.

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And I know you'll enjoy our time together in this episode.

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Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast.

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On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond.

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Our guests share their stories and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained.

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These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits.

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So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest.

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast.

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I'm here today with Craig Woodall, and he is a retired educator, a speaker, a coach, and author of a new book, you should hold it up, Overcome, Rebuilding Hope After Losing My Brother on 9-11.

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Yep.

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So there's only, I suppose there's 3,000 some victims and 2.2 average family size.

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So 4,000 people at the most are in that kind of place of having lost a sibling.

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A lot more lost children, of course.

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2,977 victims that day and only about 1,500 have even been identified.

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There's some that still haven't been identified.

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Oh, like officially?

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Like just there wasn't enough?

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And they're still working on that now, which is amazing.

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Yeah.

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Wild.

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Huh.

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I guess to set the stage a little bit, Craig, you kind of went through a season of challenge and then ultimately found really a passion for and a path into education, ultimately becoming where I recognize you from was a school principal from Rotary Club visits when you guys would have students of the month or teachers of the month and stuff like that.

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I guess, set the stage a little bit.

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You're recently retired, is that right?

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And have you been working on this book for years and years?

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So recently retired, been out a year, so completed my 30 years, all at the high school level, and it was time for me to go.

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I could see what made me, I think, effective in my job.

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I wasn't enjoying as much anymore, so it was time for me to go rather than become the

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kind of cynical guy waiting for retirement.

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Fair.

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Well, you're still young enough to do stuff.

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That's true.

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So that's nice.

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The plan was always write a leadership book.

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And so the last few years I'd been, you know, putting ideas in a folder and even built some chapters, and I thought I was going to do that.

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And then every time I'd sit down to actually write it, my mind would say, you've got another story to tell, and it's this story.

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And so...

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I literally sat down pretty close to retirement and just fired out about 100 pages of story, like the 9-11 story and all the unique things that happened afterward, 100 pages of stories.

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And I didn't know if it was a book or if it was just expressive writing to get through life.

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And I submitted it to a company and they thought it was pretty average.

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And they told me so.

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And they said, you just tell a story.

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You don't tell us anything about what you were thinking, what you were feeling.

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And so why don't you do that?

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And I was like, well, to do that, you got to know about my childhood.

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Well, okay, write that.

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Well, to know that, you got to know my dad.

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Okay, write about that.

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And so it turned into this memoir type thing.

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And I really had to make a decision.

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Is this even something I want to pursue anymore?

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Is this...

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Well, plus you were eyeing a second chapter as like a leadership coach and stuff, which is what you're doing.

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Right.

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Right.

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And that's why you were like trying to tell yourself, dude, write a leadership book.

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Right.

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Which would have made a lot more sense for trying to launch a leadership.

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Well, maybe, maybe not.

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There's a lot of leadership books out there.

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Yeah, that's true.

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There aren't that.

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There's only 3,000 plus siblings.

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That's really true.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and so the company I work with, Illumify Media, was great in helping me turn just 100 pages of mess into a book.

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And so it is much more memoir-y than I intended.

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It goes through childhood.

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It goes through a relationship with my parents.

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And it continues on, tells the 9-11 story, tells the years afterwards.

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And it goes into the passing of my dad, passing of my mom.

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It goes into all those things.

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And then it kind of finishes with,

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a few chapters on kind of just lessons I've learned and things about resilience and how to pick yourself up through difficult situations and

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And really, that's what's turned into more of my speaking nowadays.

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It's about resilience.

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And I still focus on the leadership end because I'm a big believer that as any human, we bring our baggage in.

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And so my baggage is heavy, but I've learned to carry it.

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Most, I mean, a whole bunch of my guests on this podcast who are business leaders predominantly, a huge number have had just terribly difficult chapters, you know, that I've not experienced anything like it.

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Well, it's interesting because I write about that in the book where I say it's something about authentic people, the most genuine, the most compassionate people.

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When you're in the room with them, you're just like, that is, I want to listen to that person.

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Yeah.

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Almost always have tremendous adversity or loss or something in their background because they've had to decide, am I getting back up or am I staying down?

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Am I, how do I get the answers to life's toughest questions about purpose and impact and all those things?

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Sorry to smile, but the reason I'm, uh.

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I put a picture of myself on my 52nd birthday on the Facebooks last week, and my aunt said, Miss you, squirt.

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And it's probably part of why I'm a fairly intuitive, sensitive kind of person is because I was Kurt the Squirt.

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I was 4'11 in 7th grade, and then 5'1 at the end of 10th grade.

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Wow, okay.

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So everybody else was growing like crazy, and I was not.

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Yeah.

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And it was a small school.

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All my classmates were kind of bullied significantly physically, and it didn't help that I was smarter than everybody, too, and knew it.

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Yeah.

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Anyway, I've reflected before on how much – that was probably one of the biggest seasons of adversity, not to mention, I guess, leaving banking and getting into business.

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That was adversity as well.

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Sure.

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But you had to develop skills.

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You had to develop how to talk to people, how to deal with conflict.

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Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

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So anyway, sorry to side drift there, but I think you're right, that consistent, I mean, even for kids in today's world, that ability to face a setback, be anti-fragile.

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And that's a struggle, and especially education, there's a big thing pushed now where trauma-informed education that if something happened in their childhood,

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That's just, you got to be aware of that.

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And I completely agree with that concept, but I don't agree with that it.

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That doesn't mean there's differential rules.

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Right.

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Or even just that now they're going to struggle with learning or anything for the rest of their life.

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Right.

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That's one of my favorite quotes that's in the book about, it's Carl Jung, the famous psychiatrist that says, I'm not what happened to me.

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I'm what I choose to become.

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And I was making bad choices early.

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So I was choosing to become lazy.

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I was choosing to become overweight, choosing to become, I was pursuing comfort.

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And it wasn't until I realized I got to choose differently.

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I got to make choices that I can build strength and,

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you know, capacity to carry this.

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Now are you talking about after 9-11 for you?

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And again, after my dad, after my mom, like you always have the choice.

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Like you had a choice.

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Am I just going to be the victim of these bullying things?

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Or am I going to find some internal strength?

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Am I going to find some skills?

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Well, then I got tall.

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Right.

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That helps.

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That helps too.

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You chose that.

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But I think today in today's world, not just, not just teenagers or kids, but even adults, it's just easier to say it's too much.

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I'm the victim.

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And,

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I just, I did that for too long and I just refuse to do it anymore.

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Do you have like certain kind of themes that you boil it down to on how you choose, I guess, the positivity?

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I don't know what that looks like.

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So for me, it was basically just shifting my entire morning routine instead of, you know, how late can I sleep to time it to get up, take a shower and hustle to work, which was what I used to do.

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And then on the weekends, lay on the couch and then overeat or drink.

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And so I completely shifted that.

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And I just got up an hour earlier and I would spend my first 10, 15 minutes in silence.

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For me, it was often prayer.

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you know, just thoughts that are in your head.

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Cause they say, you know, left unchecked, your thoughts are largely negative and recurring.

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So if you just listen to the thoughts in your head, especially after trauma or after difficulty or after a situation like you described, they are, they just echo nonstop in your head.

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And so I had to find a way to start combating those.

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So you did positive affirmations.

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Felt really strange to do, but they work.

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It's crazy.

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I do yoga at least three or four times.

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Yeah, yoga is a great example.

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And yoga with Adrienne.

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Adrienne is so nice.

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And when you do a move, she's like, okay, great.

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You're doing great.

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Yeah, and then I started reading.

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I would read Bible.

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I'd read books about faith.

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I'd read books about grief, books about leadership, inspirational books, just to learn what was going on in my head and the world around me.

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Was there a new faith moment for you in this, or was it a return to faith, kind of?

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I don't know if I ever lost my faith, but what was interesting with it is I didn't know how to connect grief and faith.

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And so I came to faith at about 15 years old and then almost immediately started experiencing loss.

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I lost a girl I just started dating.

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I lost two coaches.

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I lost an uncle.

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I lost a neighbor.

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Wow.

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And it just was one after the other.

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And three of those to drunk driving.

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Wow.

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And I just had to, I didn't know how to grieve.

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And I was a new believer.

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I'm like, I don't know how to combine faith and grief.

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And so I separated them.

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And so when 9-11 happened, all that kind of repressed, I don't know how to deal with grief came back up.

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And I did the same thing.

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And I said, well, God can be over there and I'll just deal with it over here.

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And it wasn't until like that, that's just not working.

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And I'm too much, I'm too independent.

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I try to do too many things on my own.

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And so once I realize I'm going to, I just keep falling on my face alone.

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I have to try something different.

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And that's when I think I merged it more with my faith.

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So it wasn't necessarily return to faith as much as, you know, put your money where your mouth is.

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Recognition of the actual usefulness of these principles kind of.

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Use the, you know.

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Lean on it when you're needed.

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Dig it.

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And I got amazing support out there that are willing to support that I just keep pushing away.

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And so I did those main two things and then, and then really committed to an exercise routine.

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That was the third thing I did each morning.

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And that,

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Just when I can feel the endorphins going, it just, I'm a different person.

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I'm more grateful.

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I'm more genuine.

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I'm more intentional.

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I'm more intentional.

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And it just, those three things in one day did nothing.

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In one week, hardly anything.

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But when you start to do them consistently and compounding impact over time, I became a completely different person.

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That's post-traumatic growth, right?

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That they talk about that you can emerge stronger from these things.

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I had no idea.

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I don't know when I got stronger, but eventually I became even a better version of myself.

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And that's when I knew I'm ready to move into leadership roles and,

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because I can handle that now.

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I'm a better version of myself.

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I'm ready to take on those stresses and struggles, and I have a completely different take on leadership now too.

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How long, so were you like a teacher for much of your career and then only later moved in?

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Does it make sense for you, especially in your story, to just jump in the time machine and go back to Little Craig?

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All the way back to Little Craig?

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I think so.

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I like to ask some of our guests, what's your first memories?

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Hmm.

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Like, do you have specific?

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That's a good question.

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I remember strawberries when I was around five, kind of, and school, first interactions there.

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So my dad worked for IBM, and we got moved around a lot because he kept getting promoted.

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And so I was born in Hawaii.

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Oh, wow.

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Okay.

226
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And my mom says I'd never wore shoes for, like, the first few years.

227
00:13:17.421 --> 00:13:18.182
I was just on the beach.

228
00:13:18.202 --> 00:13:18.442
Yeah, yeah.

229
00:13:18.462 --> 00:13:18.582
Yeah.

230
00:13:18.902 --> 00:13:24.386
And then we moved to Orange County when I was maybe two or three for like a year and a half.

231
00:13:24.446 --> 00:13:25.707
And then we moved to Austin.

232
00:13:25.727 --> 00:13:28.088
And I think that's maybe where my first memories are.

233
00:13:28.108 --> 00:13:33.672
I remember we had a pool and we had like a forest, what felt like a forest behind it.

234
00:13:33.692 --> 00:13:33.812
Yeah.

235
00:13:34.372 --> 00:13:36.153
And we would just go explore in there.

236
00:13:36.173 --> 00:13:37.394
Way before Austin was trendy.

237
00:13:37.554 --> 00:13:38.295
Yeah, exactly.

238
00:13:39.035 --> 00:13:39.776
We set the trend.

239
00:13:40.356 --> 00:13:42.298
So I was probably four and a half, five, I guess.

240
00:13:42.558 --> 00:13:43.078
Okay.

241
00:13:43.339 --> 00:13:44.159
Those kind of memories.

242
00:13:44.239 --> 00:13:47.222
But I was the youngest of three, older sister, older brother.

243
00:13:48.803 --> 00:13:50.444
Mom was a homemaker, dad a career.

244
00:13:50.484 --> 00:13:57.190
Mom was an elementary teacher until kids were born and then stayed at home for a little while.

245
00:13:57.470 --> 00:14:01.693
We then moved from Austin to New Jersey, actually, for almost two years.

246
00:14:01.733 --> 00:14:03.455
My dad commuted in and out of Manhattan.

247
00:14:03.715 --> 00:14:06.357
You were like in mid-elementary school, third, fourth grade.

248
00:14:06.377 --> 00:14:07.038
No, not quite yet.

249
00:14:07.058 --> 00:14:07.578
Not even yet.

250
00:14:07.598 --> 00:14:08.279
Second, third grade.

251
00:14:08.319 --> 00:14:09.320
No, preschool.

252
00:14:09.380 --> 00:14:09.820
Oh, damn.

253
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:10.921
Yeah, it was that quick.

254
00:14:10.941 --> 00:14:11.281
Oh, short stance.

255
00:14:11.301 --> 00:14:14.583
And so when we moved to San Diego, I started first grade.

256
00:14:14.903 --> 00:14:15.123
Wow.

257
00:14:15.163 --> 00:14:19.385
So I did all that moving before first grade, which was actually really nice for me.

258
00:14:19.405 --> 00:14:20.746
It was harder for my older siblings.

259
00:14:20.766 --> 00:14:21.046
Right.

260
00:14:21.066 --> 00:14:22.407
Because they were older and had friends.

261
00:14:22.467 --> 00:14:24.188
I had, you know, what are you in preschool?

262
00:14:24.208 --> 00:14:25.429
You don't know how you're in kindergarten.

263
00:14:25.449 --> 00:14:25.729
Right.

264
00:14:25.749 --> 00:14:28.090
Johnny, the guy from preschool, it's three years old also.

265
00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:29.411
You don't have a whole lot in common.

266
00:14:29.471 --> 00:14:30.592
Yeah, we're not in touch anymore.

267
00:14:30.612 --> 00:14:32.152
You both wanted to train sometimes.

268
00:14:32.172 --> 00:14:32.373
Yeah.

269
00:14:33.433 --> 00:14:40.179
So then I, yeah, I started first grade in San Diego and, and stayed there until I was shoot 25, 26 years old.

270
00:14:40.199 --> 00:14:40.499
Oh, wow.

271
00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:41.100
Okay.

272
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:42.501
Uh, went through.

273
00:14:42.521 --> 00:14:44.883
Talk to me about like early young, young Craig.

274
00:14:44.903 --> 00:14:46.124
Were you a good student?

275
00:14:46.264 --> 00:14:48.066
Were you, were you big always?

276
00:14:48.086 --> 00:14:49.767
I was tall.

277
00:14:49.827 --> 00:14:50.728
I was tall and thin.

278
00:14:50.748 --> 00:14:50.848
Okay.

279
00:14:51.128 --> 00:14:53.190
Uh, my brother was tall and big.

280
00:14:53.530 --> 00:14:55.372
Like he had, my dad is a big man.

281
00:14:55.432 --> 00:14:58.014
And so my dad, my brother had that build and I have my mom.

282
00:14:58.034 --> 00:14:59.075
So my mom was tall and thin.

283
00:14:59.997 --> 00:15:02.819
My mom was the shortest person in our family at 5'10".

284
00:15:02.959 --> 00:15:04.740
My sister was almost 6'1".

285
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:07.121
I'm 6'5 and change.

286
00:15:07.161 --> 00:15:08.001
My brother was 6'4".

287
00:15:08.061 --> 00:15:09.022
My dad's 6'3".

288
00:15:09.322 --> 00:15:11.563
I just thought everyone was big.

289
00:15:12.564 --> 00:15:13.584
But I was real thin.

290
00:15:13.704 --> 00:15:19.407
And so I was pretty athletic, good student, and had success in high school sports.

291
00:15:19.747 --> 00:15:21.228
My brother had more.

292
00:15:21.488 --> 00:15:25.430
He was more honored in that and...

293
00:15:26.771 --> 00:15:28.513
But yeah, sports were a big deal.

294
00:15:28.573 --> 00:15:33.278
My house was a lot about sports, which was tough on my sister because she was the artist and the musician.

295
00:15:34.419 --> 00:15:37.202
She didn't play music as much as she loved music.

296
00:15:37.242 --> 00:15:37.983
That was her jam.

297
00:15:38.023 --> 00:15:40.385
And so we didn't quite understand that.

298
00:15:40.826 --> 00:15:44.389
We just wanted to compete and go eat each other up in the backyard.

299
00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:45.571
Yeah, she was all into sports.

300
00:15:45.651 --> 00:15:46.091
Okay.

301
00:15:46.492 --> 00:15:47.653
So it was tough on my sister.

302
00:15:47.693 --> 00:15:48.093
Yeah.

303
00:15:49.121 --> 00:15:53.582
Yeah, so I loved my high school experience, and I remember thinking, I could do this.

304
00:15:53.682 --> 00:16:02.265
I could come back and do this, and got really involved in our youth group and thought, okay, now I see how people influence me.

305
00:16:02.325 --> 00:16:04.226
People are pouring into my life.

306
00:16:04.266 --> 00:16:06.247
How can I pour into other people's lives?

307
00:16:06.287 --> 00:16:08.627
It was kind of the origin of that.

308
00:16:08.667 --> 00:16:15.349
I ended up going to UCLA, played a little bit of football, a little bit of baseball there, but didn't really pan out, got injured.

309
00:16:15.369 --> 00:16:16.930
What was your position in baseball?

310
00:16:17.318 --> 00:16:17.898
I was a pitcher.

311
00:16:18.339 --> 00:16:18.459
Oh.

312
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:19.099
Yeah.

313
00:16:19.119 --> 00:16:24.081
And I was a quarterback and then moved to tight end because I got bigger and they have a ton of quarterbacks.

314
00:16:24.101 --> 00:16:24.981
They moved me to tight end.

315
00:16:25.121 --> 00:16:26.082
I got hurt pretty quick.

316
00:16:26.242 --> 00:16:26.942
Yeah.

317
00:16:26.982 --> 00:16:27.783
Never really panned out.

318
00:16:27.823 --> 00:16:29.844
You're like, I like the quarterback role a lot better.

319
00:16:30.104 --> 00:16:30.424
I know.

320
00:16:30.444 --> 00:16:34.045
I tried to move back and they were like, normally we don't go that direction.

321
00:16:34.286 --> 00:16:36.466
It was before the tall quarterbacks was really a thing.

322
00:16:36.486 --> 00:16:36.927
I know.

323
00:16:37.587 --> 00:16:37.867
I know.

324
00:16:37.947 --> 00:16:38.788
I missed my time.

325
00:16:38.808 --> 00:16:39.228
Yeah.

326
00:16:40.068 --> 00:16:45.874
But then I remember getting out of school and, and my brother and dad, both my dad worked for IBM forever.

327
00:16:45.894 --> 00:16:51.460
And my brother worked on, you know, wall street and they both were saying, you should go into the private sector.

328
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:52.081
You would crush it.

329
00:16:52.101 --> 00:16:53.782
You'd make so much money doing this and that.

330
00:16:53.803 --> 00:16:55.664
I'm like, no, I want to pour into people's lives.

331
00:16:55.684 --> 00:16:56.005
Yeah.

332
00:16:56.245 --> 00:16:56.485
Yeah.

333
00:16:56.625 --> 00:16:59.609
And there's a difference between, you know, making a living and making a difference.

334
00:16:59.629 --> 00:17:02.051
And we'd argue all the time and they would just give me a

335
00:17:03.513 --> 00:17:23.892
you're the young socialist in the family yeah so i ended up going in education and yeah started teaching out in san diego for a few years then we moved just uh like grade school education or what were you teaching who were you teaching everything at high school level high school social studies government u.s history civics and geography that were the main with some psychology in there too and

336
00:17:25.035 --> 00:17:28.937
Yeah, my wife wanted to get a degree through CSU.

337
00:17:29.038 --> 00:17:30.739
Where'd you find her?

338
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:31.579
Same high school.

339
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.440
Okay, so high school sweethearts?

340
00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:34.321
No, no.

341
00:17:34.681 --> 00:17:38.063
We became good friends in college, really.

342
00:17:38.103 --> 00:17:40.445
And then it was like, we were just really good friends.

343
00:17:40.525 --> 00:17:42.046
I kind of turned into best friends.

344
00:17:42.086 --> 00:17:45.628
And it's like, hmm, this could probably work.

345
00:17:46.569 --> 00:17:47.930
Which I think is a great way to do it.

346
00:17:47.950 --> 00:17:48.310
Yeah, for sure.

347
00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:50.111
Because you have that friendship first.

348
00:17:50.131 --> 00:17:51.492
She's just an amazing woman.

349
00:17:51.512 --> 00:17:51.612
Yeah.

350
00:17:53.046 --> 00:17:55.308
Yeah, and so we moved out here in 98.

351
00:17:55.668 --> 00:17:55.908
Okay.

352
00:17:55.928 --> 00:18:00.012
Got a job teaching social studies and coaching football and baseball.

353
00:18:00.032 --> 00:18:00.593
I was doing the same.

354
00:18:00.613 --> 00:18:03.956
I was coaching football and baseball in San Diego as well.

355
00:18:03.976 --> 00:18:08.180
Kind of a lever into getting good positions if you're willing to do the extra little bit.

356
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:09.382
And really, that's what I knew I wanted to do.

357
00:18:09.422 --> 00:18:10.343
And you wanted to.

358
00:18:10.363 --> 00:18:11.684
I knew I wanted to coach.

359
00:18:12.024 --> 00:18:13.686
I wasn't sure I wanted to teach.

360
00:18:13.706 --> 00:18:16.188
I knew I wanted to coach, and I was like, well, I guess I teach then.

361
00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:19.331
Yeah, and that's what I was doing.

362
00:18:19.771 --> 00:18:28.938
That's where on 9-11 I was literally sitting in my classroom helping facilitate a department meeting with other social studies teachers and we're watching everything play out on TV.

363
00:18:28.958 --> 00:18:29.399
Oh, yeah.

364
00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:31.120
So, yeah, I was teaching at the moment.

365
00:18:32.841 --> 00:18:33.542
It's terrible.

366
00:18:33.982 --> 00:18:44.530
But I'm guessing the first thing you thought when you saw the planes hit there and what was going down wasn't, oh, how's Wall Street now or anything like that.

367
00:18:44.871 --> 00:18:45.171
Clearly.

368
00:18:45.191 --> 00:18:45.291
Yeah.

369
00:18:45.592 --> 00:18:49.914
My first thought was it's got to be an accident.

370
00:18:49.954 --> 00:18:51.915
Somebody crashed their CISN into the side of the building.

371
00:18:52.315 --> 00:18:53.456
That was what I thought.

372
00:18:53.596 --> 00:18:56.437
And then I was like, but it's the clearest day I've ever seen in New York.

373
00:18:57.298 --> 00:19:01.840
And by the time you could even process that, the second tower was 17 minutes later.

374
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:05.362
And then you know like, oh, this is legit.

375
00:19:05.422 --> 00:19:07.443
This is an attack, not accidental.

376
00:19:08.563 --> 00:19:12.365
It's interesting though because I'm literally watching on TV.

377
00:19:12.385 --> 00:19:13.446
How old a guy are you about this, Twain?

378
00:19:14.154 --> 00:19:14.274
28.

379
00:19:14.475 --> 00:19:14.635
Okay.

380
00:19:14.655 --> 00:19:17.243
Yeah, I'm still pretty young in a career.

381
00:19:17.464 --> 00:19:17.765
I'm a...

382
00:19:18.509 --> 00:19:18.889
Oh, gosh.

383
00:19:19.349 --> 00:19:20.650
How old are you now?

384
00:19:20.710 --> 00:19:20.890
53.

385
00:19:21.270 --> 00:19:21.510
Yeah.

386
00:19:21.610 --> 00:19:22.611
So I'm 52.

387
00:19:22.651 --> 00:19:23.431
Just turned 52.

388
00:19:23.491 --> 00:19:28.873
So we were about the same age as always reflecting because I was early in my banking career at the bank.

389
00:19:29.033 --> 00:19:31.214
One of our ladies at the bank was from New York.

390
00:19:32.395 --> 00:19:35.876
And she was more freaked out.

391
00:19:36.576 --> 00:19:39.077
For me, I was like, I'm a North Dakota farm kid.

392
00:19:39.097 --> 00:19:41.398
I just kind of moved to town not long ago.

393
00:19:41.518 --> 00:19:42.559
I'm like, I don't know.

394
00:19:42.579 --> 00:19:43.219
Something happened.

395
00:19:43.239 --> 00:19:45.500
Somebody says Natalia is sticking out of the side of the building.

396
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:46.180
Yeah.

397
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.861
And then, yeah, when that second one went down, it was like.

398
00:19:49.181 --> 00:19:50.881
Yeah, it was.

399
00:19:50.901 --> 00:19:53.242
Was your brother always there in the buildings?

400
00:19:53.342 --> 00:19:54.202
That was where he worked?

401
00:19:54.322 --> 00:19:56.543
So he worked in the South Tower on the 89th floor.

402
00:19:56.583 --> 00:20:00.864
So the North Tower was at first, and he called out saying, hey, that's the other tower.

403
00:20:00.904 --> 00:20:01.484
It's not mine.

404
00:20:01.504 --> 00:20:02.104
I'm fine.

405
00:20:02.564 --> 00:20:06.445
But he was talking to my dad about I'm seeing people jump or fall.

406
00:20:06.485 --> 00:20:08.266
Like, this is crazy what I'm seeing.

407
00:20:08.306 --> 00:20:08.746
Wow.

408
00:20:09.366 --> 00:20:14.829
And then when the second one hit, he called out again, this time left a voicemail just saying, okay, that was my tower.

409
00:20:14.849 --> 00:20:15.589
I don't know what's going on.

410
00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:16.770
I got to get the heck out of here.

411
00:20:16.830 --> 00:20:17.931
It is chaos in here.

412
00:20:17.971 --> 00:20:18.951
It's really bad.

413
00:20:19.852 --> 00:20:21.833
And we never heard from him again after that.

414
00:20:21.853 --> 00:20:25.015
But we know just kind of piecing together the story that he went up.

415
00:20:25.455 --> 00:20:29.537
Or he tried to go down, but he couldn't get down, tried to go up, couldn't get out, came back down.

416
00:20:29.577 --> 00:20:31.098
He actually called 911.

417
00:20:31.618 --> 00:20:34.560
There's a recording of that where he was asking, do I break a window?

418
00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:35.960
And they're like, don't do that.

419
00:20:35.981 --> 00:20:36.281
And then...

420
00:20:37.001 --> 00:20:37.682
They're like, you know what?

421
00:20:38.122 --> 00:20:38.742
Maybe you should.

422
00:20:39.123 --> 00:20:40.144
Just go ahead and break it.

423
00:20:40.184 --> 00:20:41.044
What the hell?

424
00:20:41.064 --> 00:20:41.705
Yeah.

425
00:20:43.306 --> 00:20:44.947
And so we know that.

426
00:20:44.987 --> 00:20:48.490
And then he's like trying to break this window that's made to not be broken, basically.

427
00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:50.532
Knowing him, though, he probably broke it.

428
00:20:50.552 --> 00:20:51.753
He's a big guy, I guess.

429
00:20:51.853 --> 00:20:53.374
Well, and that's what I was going to say earlier.

430
00:20:53.814 --> 00:20:56.697
Seeing all this play out, people are like, why are we sitting in a meeting?

431
00:20:56.717 --> 00:20:57.377
Like, go home.

432
00:20:57.397 --> 00:20:59.459
And I'm like, he's going to be fine.

433
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:00.980
Like he is a, he's my brother.

434
00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:02.361
He's he's yeah.

435
00:21:02.682 --> 00:21:03.282
Bigger than life.

436
00:21:03.302 --> 00:21:05.744
Cause he's just my big brother, but he's a large man.

437
00:21:05.784 --> 00:21:06.845
He's an intense dude.

438
00:21:06.865 --> 00:21:07.646
He's a competitor.

439
00:21:08.567 --> 00:21:09.067
He's fine.

440
00:21:09.388 --> 00:21:13.111
Like they're going to pan down in a minute and he's going to be running out, carrying someone on his shoulder.

441
00:21:13.131 --> 00:21:14.092
Like just relax.

442
00:21:14.132 --> 00:21:14.372
Right.

443
00:21:14.732 --> 00:21:16.494
And then when it fell, that changed things.

444
00:21:16.554 --> 00:21:18.996
And I thought, that's a bigger deal.

445
00:21:19.296 --> 00:21:23.540
So that's when I went home and kind of took a different approach to the day.

446
00:21:23.887 --> 00:21:39.165
I want to take a moment here because I wolfed down this kind of fake old-fashioned, but shout-out to Matt over at 477 Distilling who gifted me a bottle of Orange Barrel bourbon.

447
00:21:39.946 --> 00:21:40.166
Nice.

448
00:21:40.186 --> 00:21:43.210
Bourbon with orange peel, and so I used that along with some...

449
00:21:43.830 --> 00:21:46.391
Cherry Spindrift and... Well done.

450
00:21:46.451 --> 00:21:47.711
What do they call those fancy cherries?

451
00:21:48.691 --> 00:21:49.611
I don't know.

452
00:21:49.871 --> 00:21:50.251
Something.

453
00:21:51.012 --> 00:21:52.432
They have a special name.

454
00:21:52.472 --> 00:21:53.072
Marciano.

455
00:21:53.972 --> 00:21:56.333
Or Marciano or something fancy like that.

456
00:21:56.813 --> 00:22:00.554
So I thought I would give you a chance to take a sip because I'm way ahead of you.

457
00:22:00.654 --> 00:22:01.754
Those are good.

458
00:22:01.794 --> 00:22:02.154
I like it.

459
00:22:02.974 --> 00:22:11.956
So you are like everybody else is freaking out more than you are until the buildings start coming down.

460
00:22:12.187 --> 00:22:15.148
And I think some of that's probably just a defense mechanism that your brain has.

461
00:22:15.208 --> 00:22:18.948
And also I had learned, my brother and dad were very intense individuals.

462
00:22:19.488 --> 00:22:21.909
And so they were zero to a hundred right away.

463
00:22:21.969 --> 00:22:23.489
And I had to learn to be calm.

464
00:22:24.069 --> 00:22:26.489
And so they would get, I separated.

465
00:22:26.529 --> 00:22:30.290
I don't know how many fights between them and other people in public.

466
00:22:30.330 --> 00:22:35.051
And so I've learned to, when things hit the fan, to go calm.

467
00:22:35.551 --> 00:22:37.411
And so that's a coping mechanism.

468
00:22:37.451 --> 00:22:38.612
And then I was like, he's fine.

469
00:22:39.392 --> 00:22:41.332
Yeah, but when it went down, I was like, I'm going home.

470
00:22:41.772 --> 00:22:46.496
and I positioned myself in front of the TV, and it wasn't like, oh, I need to learn what's going on.

471
00:22:46.856 --> 00:22:48.457
I was looking for him.

472
00:22:48.477 --> 00:22:54.362
I was thinking, I'll see him walk by or wheeled by in a wheelchair or a stretcher or something, and I could say, oh, I saw him.

473
00:22:54.422 --> 00:22:54.903
He's fine.

474
00:22:54.923 --> 00:22:56.704
You were watching CNN every hour.

475
00:22:56.904 --> 00:22:57.285
I did.

476
00:22:57.425 --> 00:23:06.372
I stood in front of the TV just watching for the next couple days, just thinking I'll hopefully be the one that sees him walking by, and obviously never did.

477
00:23:06.412 --> 00:23:06.472
And

478
00:23:06.951 --> 00:23:09.936
They grounded the flights, so there was nowhere really to go.

479
00:23:09.956 --> 00:23:15.364
We were going to drive to San Diego, and by the time we get there, the flights will be open.

480
00:23:15.624 --> 00:23:18.969
So we waited for the flights and then headed out to San Diego.

481
00:23:19.249 --> 00:23:19.490
Okay.

482
00:23:20.451 --> 00:23:21.533
Your dad was there?

483
00:23:21.553 --> 00:23:21.653
Yeah.

484
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.341
Both my parents, my sister was in the LA area.

485
00:23:25.381 --> 00:23:26.641
And so she was down there too.

486
00:23:26.701 --> 00:23:29.242
And just a lot of family and friends in the area.

487
00:23:29.742 --> 00:23:39.165
You know, it was, it was odd to say, but I missed that time because it was so, uh, I don't remember being so supported.

488
00:23:39.985 --> 00:23:45.069
I walked in that house and there's 30 to 40 people there every day that are there just to invest in you.

489
00:23:45.129 --> 00:23:48.291
And the conversations that usually are superficial got real deep.

490
00:23:48.371 --> 00:23:52.374
And you'd mix in some humor and then someone would get upset and start crying.

491
00:23:52.414 --> 00:23:54.796
And then it was such a unique time.

492
00:23:54.816 --> 00:23:57.058
But I miss it because we don't have that anymore.

493
00:23:57.078 --> 00:23:59.459
We don't connect like that all the time.

494
00:23:59.499 --> 00:24:02.622
But it certainly was an interesting time to connect.

495
00:24:02.682 --> 00:24:04.243
You should come to Rotary Club sometime.

496
00:24:05.183 --> 00:24:28.715
I've been I didn't feel the same connection did you come to my club apparently you said you saw me oh okay maybe so anyway but it is not that you could have that kind of intention ever like where it's but you didn't know anything right probably for a long time you didn't hear it from him but

497
00:24:29.395 --> 00:24:52.343
that's the hardest thing because all those other losses i expressed earlier i was told there was a car accident and she's dead yeah i mean he's in the moment boom right now you know yeah with him we didn't officially know till the following april so he was one of the ones that was identified okay but we didn't hear till april and so we had a service for him in october and

498
00:24:53.337 --> 00:24:56.179
And I remember sitting there and like, are we sure?

499
00:24:56.219 --> 00:24:57.420
What if he shows up?

500
00:24:58.080 --> 00:24:59.541
I'm like, maybe he has amnesia.

501
00:25:00.322 --> 00:25:01.603
Or maybe he's in Europe.

502
00:25:01.723 --> 00:25:02.163
I don't know.

503
00:25:02.703 --> 00:25:03.964
And so your brain just goes.

504
00:25:03.984 --> 00:25:04.925
Sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

505
00:25:04.965 --> 00:25:05.705
No, it's okay.

506
00:25:05.725 --> 00:25:08.027
And your brain goes to some crazy places.

507
00:25:08.147 --> 00:25:10.428
And it hit me at different times.

508
00:25:10.468 --> 00:25:13.230
I remember being at my parents, like maybe a week later.

509
00:25:13.731 --> 00:25:15.772
And I just went and sat back in his old room.

510
00:25:15.812 --> 00:25:20.215
And I think that was when I kind of came to peace with, he's not coming back.

511
00:25:20.674 --> 00:25:24.960
And then at the service was probably the next time because I'm sitting there and bagpipes are going.

512
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:25.741
I'm like, what?

513
00:25:26.782 --> 00:25:27.263
Oh, my gosh.

514
00:25:27.303 --> 00:25:28.845
I'm here because my brother died?

515
00:25:29.005 --> 00:25:30.687
Like I'm saying bye to my brother today?

516
00:25:30.807 --> 00:25:37.596
I hadn't been preparing because there is that weird piece of doubt.

517
00:25:38.480 --> 00:26:03.528
you know until you finally get it you know what's interesting is um the the podcast intro that I just recorded was with a couple of the principals at Vought Frye Larson architecture VFLA here in town um it's not no longer Vought Frye Larson but it's VFLA uh in part because Justin Larson uh the former principal and CEO died in a motorcycle crash back in 2019 and uh

518
00:26:06.349 --> 00:26:12.235
Justin was my ride motorcycles way too fast in Canyon's riding companion.

519
00:26:12.475 --> 00:26:12.776
Okay.

520
00:26:12.916 --> 00:26:18.121
Like, I had a lot of motorcycling friends, but nobody else that wanted to ride too fast all the time.

521
00:26:18.441 --> 00:26:19.102
Yeah.

522
00:26:19.242 --> 00:26:22.725
And he ultimately paid for it in a crash in Mexico.

523
00:26:22.745 --> 00:26:22.966
Wow.

524
00:26:22.986 --> 00:26:23.126
Wow.

525
00:26:24.766 --> 00:26:28.007
And I've really not connected with that firm since then.

526
00:26:28.727 --> 00:26:37.789
And interestingly, Justin recruited one of the principals to join the firm only three days before he passed.

527
00:26:37.869 --> 00:26:38.490
He rejoined.

528
00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:47.312
And the other one, the CEO of the firm now, Chris Aronson, he was interviewing with both Justin Larson,

529
00:26:48.892 --> 00:26:57.998
JCL Architecture and Vought Fry Architecture, trying to move to Northern Colorado back in his earlier days of architecture.

530
00:26:58.659 --> 00:27:03.402
And when he came in for a second interview, the principals of both firms were there to share that they were merging.

531
00:27:03.722 --> 00:27:04.262
Okay.

532
00:27:04.302 --> 00:27:05.743
With Justin being kind of the heir apparent.

533
00:27:06.124 --> 00:27:14.169
Anyway, all this to say, I've realized how... We spent a little bit of time there, but some of that just...

534
00:27:15.810 --> 00:27:27.840
Hearing from their side of the curtain, you know, that Justin I knew was the guy that I rode motorcycles faster than my wife would prefer with occasionally for a lot of years.

535
00:27:28.801 --> 00:27:38.790
And for them, it was, you know, their co-worker and really a mentor of sorts for Chris, especially in somebody that helped advance his career into leadership and...

536
00:27:39.430 --> 00:27:41.391
When I wonder how many stories, I don't know.

537
00:27:42.052 --> 00:27:45.093
Because I didn't know the people he knew in New York.

538
00:27:45.714 --> 00:27:46.894
They tell us some stories.

539
00:27:46.914 --> 00:27:50.156
They say they think he broke the record for the most broken phones.

540
00:27:51.157 --> 00:27:56.440
Because when he'd get a bad, market would go down, bad decisions, something didn't pan out.

541
00:27:56.460 --> 00:28:00.022
He would just slam it down and break the phone and just, I need another phone.

542
00:28:00.042 --> 00:28:01.202
So what was his role?

543
00:28:01.242 --> 00:28:02.383
Was he an investment banker?

544
00:28:02.403 --> 00:28:03.344
He was an equities trader.

545
00:28:03.404 --> 00:28:03.884
Oh, a trader.

546
00:28:03.904 --> 00:28:04.004
Yeah.

547
00:28:04.124 --> 00:28:07.907
Yeah, not as relationship-driven, it's just making bets all the time, basically.

548
00:28:07.927 --> 00:28:09.288
Yeah, and it was perfect for him.

549
00:28:09.328 --> 00:28:09.428
Yeah.

550
00:28:09.468 --> 00:28:10.729
He was driven, he was good at that.

551
00:28:10.749 --> 00:28:11.690
Trying to be right all the time.

552
00:28:11.710 --> 00:28:14.132
He was, you know, and I have another great story.

553
00:28:14.152 --> 00:28:17.715
He could have been a salesman because you could never afford the phone budget if you...

554
00:28:17.795 --> 00:28:19.396
I think he would have struggled being a salesman.

555
00:28:19.416 --> 00:28:19.977
I think you're right.

556
00:28:19.997 --> 00:28:21.458
Every no would have been a new phone.

557
00:28:21.478 --> 00:28:23.380
Because he would have, like, why are you telling me no?

558
00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:24.721
People don't tell me no.

559
00:28:24.741 --> 00:28:25.221
Right.

560
00:28:25.902 --> 00:28:26.942
He would have struggled, but...

561
00:28:27.803 --> 00:28:30.787
I ran into, gosh, I think it was the 10th anniversary.

562
00:28:30.827 --> 00:28:39.077
I was standing there kind of by his name at the memorial, and there was a man behind me, and he was just kind of awkwardly looking at me, and I was like, are we blocking something for you?

563
00:28:39.097 --> 00:28:39.738
Like, what's going on?

564
00:28:40.652 --> 00:28:42.793
And he's like, no, you must be Brent's brother.

565
00:28:42.813 --> 00:28:44.754
I'm like, yeah, how do you know that?

566
00:28:44.795 --> 00:28:48.177
Like, we're both big men, but we don't look that much alike, I didn't think.

567
00:28:49.077 --> 00:28:51.458
And he's like, you're big like him.

568
00:28:51.478 --> 00:28:52.299
You got to be.

569
00:28:52.379 --> 00:28:55.061
And my wife was a month away from retiring.

570
00:28:55.701 --> 00:29:04.486
And the plan was on her last day, Brent was going to carry her out on his shoulder and just walk her out like ceremonially.

571
00:29:04.786 --> 00:29:08.989
He's like, so when this was going down, I thought, it's fine because Brent's in there.

572
00:29:09.449 --> 00:29:11.613
And Brent will get her out and Brent will carry her out.

573
00:29:11.673 --> 00:29:13.076
And I was like, wow.

574
00:29:13.096 --> 00:29:14.418
I mean, what a beautiful story.

575
00:29:14.458 --> 00:29:17.343
That's the same image I had, basically.

576
00:29:18.225 --> 00:29:20.228
And I wonder how many stories I don't know.

577
00:29:20.529 --> 00:29:20.769
Sure.

578
00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:22.653
You know, of him impacting people.

579
00:29:23.110 --> 00:29:32.633
Is there like a, for your brother or even those other people that lost, is there like a consolidated place to know them, know their stories like that?

580
00:29:33.654 --> 00:29:36.275
So the museum tries to do that.

581
00:29:36.535 --> 00:29:37.195
Yeah.

582
00:29:37.275 --> 00:29:39.976
You can go into the museum and there's, have you been in the museum?

583
00:29:40.516 --> 00:29:40.936
It's beautiful.

584
00:29:40.956 --> 00:29:41.816
Have you been to Memorial?

585
00:29:42.016 --> 00:29:42.817
We have, yeah.

586
00:29:42.837 --> 00:29:44.257
Okay, so you got to get to the museum too.

587
00:29:44.477 --> 00:29:46.258
I'm trying to think of when that was, but it was.

588
00:29:46.478 --> 00:29:49.679
They have a whole area of just the faces.

589
00:29:50.340 --> 00:29:55.142
And you can go and type in a name, and it'll bring up some pictures and some stories.

590
00:29:55.322 --> 00:29:57.683
I have no idea who did the recording for my brother.

591
00:29:57.703 --> 00:29:58.543
It's not any of us.

592
00:29:58.643 --> 00:29:59.784
Yeah, okay.

593
00:29:59.864 --> 00:30:02.805
So I've wondered, like, can I...

594
00:30:03.345 --> 00:30:04.587
re-record that?

595
00:30:04.627 --> 00:30:08.171
I don't know what that is, but it's cool and you see family pictures and things.

596
00:30:08.191 --> 00:30:09.012
So they try.

597
00:30:09.592 --> 00:30:11.915
We were there only like two or three years after.

598
00:30:13.136 --> 00:30:15.619
Maybe four or five, but not very many years.

599
00:30:15.679 --> 00:30:16.480
A lot of stuff.

600
00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:17.461
Yeah, I don't think so.

601
00:30:18.362 --> 00:30:21.165
There was some stuff that you could check out.

602
00:30:21.726 --> 00:30:22.126
Like you could,

603
00:30:23.347 --> 00:30:28.136
Yeah, they had little side, almost mini-museums that popped up around the area.

604
00:30:28.156 --> 00:30:32.284
Yep, and there was little signages about this church that took this damage or things like that.

605
00:30:32.305 --> 00:30:33.086
Yeah, Trinity Church, I think.

606
00:30:33.106 --> 00:30:33.447
Yeah.

607
00:30:34.514 --> 00:30:35.975
So yeah, you're right though.

608
00:30:35.995 --> 00:30:39.816
There is a, so did your brother leave behind a family as well?

609
00:30:40.096 --> 00:30:41.037
Or what was his?

610
00:30:41.057 --> 00:30:43.838
So he was, he'd been married just over a year.

611
00:30:43.858 --> 00:30:49.680
And in fact, the last time I spoke to him, he called saying they were expecting their first.

612
00:30:50.501 --> 00:30:51.961
And so that was the week before.

613
00:30:52.742 --> 00:30:57.043
And so he, his, he never met his daughter.

614
00:30:57.124 --> 00:31:00.425
She was born the following April and that was their first.

615
00:31:00.485 --> 00:31:00.565
And

616
00:31:01.482 --> 00:31:06.710
His wife is a very strong woman, very similar to him, intense, kind of strong, driven.

617
00:31:07.491 --> 00:31:09.835
And it's an amazing story to me.

618
00:31:10.015 --> 00:31:13.921
In 2003, just two years after this, she starts a foundation for

619
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:16.241
Children with autism and their families.

620
00:31:17.042 --> 00:31:20.445
Names it after my brother, Brent Woodall Foundation for Exceptional Children.

621
00:31:21.125 --> 00:31:22.706
It's still going strong in 2026.

622
00:31:22.987 --> 00:31:23.947
Bigger than it's ever been.

623
00:31:23.967 --> 00:31:24.388
Wow.

624
00:31:24.408 --> 00:31:26.229
Like, that is the most amazing story.

625
00:31:26.249 --> 00:31:28.130
Some of those silver linings of things, right?

626
00:31:28.150 --> 00:31:30.012
Like, that obviously would have never happened.

627
00:31:30.032 --> 00:31:33.234
When she said, Brent was always encouraging her, like, hey, go do this.

628
00:31:33.294 --> 00:31:34.455
You have the education.

629
00:31:34.475 --> 00:31:35.416
You have the heart for it.

630
00:31:35.436 --> 00:31:36.016
You've got to do it.

631
00:31:36.056 --> 00:31:37.858
And she's like, I've got to do it.

632
00:31:38.138 --> 00:31:39.319
I've got to do it to honor him.

633
00:31:39.399 --> 00:31:41.300
And the daughter's gone on.

634
00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:42.661
She graduated from Columbia.

635
00:31:42.701 --> 00:31:43.122
She played...

636
00:31:43.942 --> 00:32:05.550
volleyball there she's got a couple masters already she's getting ready to start a doctorate i mean they've okay they're amazing it's just amazing what they've been able to accomplish godspeed yeah so what what does life look like like were you like on a leave of absence from your work then for a week a month uh what's what's that look like for you

637
00:32:06.757 --> 00:32:12.640
You know, I think I was gone about a week.

638
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:15.722
If I'm remembering correctly, because I think it was Tuesday.

639
00:32:15.742 --> 00:32:18.083
I think the flights opened up maybe Friday and we flew out.

640
00:32:18.123 --> 00:32:19.424
And then I think it was gone the next week.

641
00:32:19.804 --> 00:32:22.125
I know I returned on a Friday because it was game day.

642
00:32:22.305 --> 00:32:24.367
And I decided, do I need to go to the football game?

643
00:32:24.407 --> 00:32:25.167
Should I go or not?

644
00:32:25.987 --> 00:32:30.870
But I just am blessed that I work with amazing people who are like, don't worry at all.

645
00:32:30.890 --> 00:32:31.430
What school were you at?

646
00:32:31.450 --> 00:32:32.751
I was at Poudre High School at the time.

647
00:32:32.931 --> 00:32:33.171
Poudre High.

648
00:32:33.191 --> 00:32:34.352
Yeah, just on the street from my house.

649
00:32:34.570 --> 00:32:40.072
Yeah, and they were, I'll cover your classes, I'll write lesson plans, do take the time you need.

650
00:32:40.112 --> 00:32:44.034
I never felt pressured to get back.

651
00:32:44.054 --> 00:32:51.257
But I do recall coming back, and it was a Friday, and I thought, I want to go to the game, but I feel a little, I'm going to be a distraction.

652
00:32:52.278 --> 00:32:57.480
But it was kind of a beautiful moment of being at the game, and people finally saw me and came over and supported me.

653
00:32:57.500 --> 00:32:58.581
Because those are your people, right?

654
00:32:58.601 --> 00:33:01.102
Your athletes and your coaches that you spend the most time with.

655
00:33:01.122 --> 00:33:01.742
For sure.

656
00:33:02.121 --> 00:33:03.883
But then I would go to New York.

657
00:33:03.903 --> 00:33:07.227
I probably went to New York four times the first year, four or five times.

658
00:33:07.287 --> 00:33:08.669
And so I would miss some more stuff.

659
00:33:08.709 --> 00:33:11.993
And my school never batted an eye.

660
00:33:12.093 --> 00:33:13.435
They just stepped in and supported me.

661
00:33:13.595 --> 00:33:13.775
Yeah.

662
00:33:14.957 --> 00:33:18.261
How long after that did you start putting like the.

663
00:33:19.674 --> 00:33:22.176
I guess, point around on leadership further?

664
00:33:22.416 --> 00:33:29.042
Or was that like, I think that you kind of spun out a little bit career wise or maybe focus wise.

665
00:33:29.923 --> 00:33:39.531
So I had at that point around 2001 was considering starting like a master's in administration to move in that direction.

666
00:33:40.151 --> 00:33:42.013
When this happened, I just put it all on hold.

667
00:33:42.033 --> 00:33:43.294
Like, I'm not going to worry about that.

668
00:33:44.715 --> 00:33:47.797
We stayed here for a couple more years.

669
00:33:47.837 --> 00:33:50.419
And I remember thinking, we're hypocrites.

670
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:51.900
I'm saying it's all about family.

671
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.742
And we're the only one with, at the time, right away, we were the only one with a grandkid.

672
00:33:55.762 --> 00:33:57.903
We're 1,100 miles away from everyone.

673
00:33:58.504 --> 00:34:01.385
We got to get home is what I thought.

674
00:34:01.465 --> 00:34:04.808
So we moved back to San Diego in 2003.

675
00:34:06.185 --> 00:34:07.685
And I got a job in administration.

676
00:34:07.705 --> 00:34:09.046
I was trying to get a teaching job.

677
00:34:09.326 --> 00:34:11.666
And the school was like, we don't have that, but we have this.

678
00:34:11.726 --> 00:34:13.027
And we think you'd be great.

679
00:34:13.187 --> 00:34:15.527
We're increasing the number of administrators every year.

680
00:34:15.627 --> 00:34:20.508
Well, they'd lost their dean.

681
00:34:20.588 --> 00:34:23.529
And so I was doing attendance and discipline.

682
00:34:23.549 --> 00:34:24.349
It was not fun.

683
00:34:25.030 --> 00:34:26.250
An enormous school.

684
00:34:26.410 --> 00:34:26.910
Great school.

685
00:34:26.930 --> 00:34:29.531
You're like the bouncer at the trailhead.

686
00:34:29.571 --> 00:34:30.191
Yeah, pretty much.

687
00:34:30.371 --> 00:34:30.771
Ish.

688
00:34:31.031 --> 00:34:34.614
But I was just a fragment of myself.

689
00:34:34.774 --> 00:34:36.235
I was not who I was.

690
00:34:36.255 --> 00:34:37.856
You weren't ready to try to do that job.

691
00:34:38.537 --> 00:34:40.858
And so I just fizzled out and left education.

692
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.821
And I got into commercial real estate.

693
00:34:44.381 --> 00:34:47.524
And then looking back, I think I was trying to replace him.

694
00:34:47.884 --> 00:34:53.148
I was trying to fill that void of, well, they always said I should be in the private sector.

695
00:34:53.188 --> 00:34:54.249
He was doing this and...

696
00:34:54.929 --> 00:34:56.270
The first few months, I loved it.

697
00:34:56.290 --> 00:34:58.591
I'm making money for other people.

698
00:34:58.651 --> 00:35:00.752
But this is not hard.

699
00:35:00.893 --> 00:35:02.413
It's just about relationships.

700
00:35:02.453 --> 00:35:04.355
And I could do this all the time.

701
00:35:04.375 --> 00:35:04.915
And then it just...

702
00:35:05.798 --> 00:35:07.039
It didn't have any meaning for me.

703
00:35:07.059 --> 00:35:08.059
There was no purpose.

704
00:35:08.139 --> 00:35:10.280
And I'd forgotten my purpose of pouring into people.

705
00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:12.001
A big commission check doesn't really matter for you.

706
00:35:13.061 --> 00:35:17.123
And so I remember telling my wife, I don't think this is for me.

707
00:35:17.763 --> 00:35:21.085
And if I'm going to get out, we've got to go back to Colorado.

708
00:35:21.145 --> 00:35:22.786
Because we had two kids at the time.

709
00:35:23.186 --> 00:35:24.066
We wanted more.

710
00:35:24.086 --> 00:35:26.367
I'm like, there's no way we can do that in San Diego.

711
00:35:26.427 --> 00:35:27.648
It's too expensive.

712
00:35:27.988 --> 00:35:29.168
We're buried in our mortgage.

713
00:35:29.188 --> 00:35:31.850
We're in an interest-only payment and beautiful home.

714
00:35:31.910 --> 00:35:32.090
But...

715
00:35:33.271 --> 00:35:33.791
We got to go.

716
00:35:33.872 --> 00:35:45.487
And so came back to Colorado in 05, got back into the exact same classroom, still had stuff on the wall from when I left in the same room I was in on the morning of 9-11, which is just crazy to me.

717
00:35:46.169 --> 00:35:51.431
And I really felt like that's when I got back into my stride, my purpose.

718
00:35:51.732 --> 00:35:52.492
Yeah, back home.

719
00:35:52.712 --> 00:35:57.354
Because I thought home was San Diego, but we're like, all our friends are in Colorado.

720
00:35:57.954 --> 00:35:59.755
We've built our own life in Colorado.

721
00:35:59.775 --> 00:36:02.477
And your kids besides are like, yeah, our friends are in Colorado too.

722
00:36:02.557 --> 00:36:03.377
Or how old were your kids?

723
00:36:03.437 --> 00:36:04.938
They were pretty young.

724
00:36:05.018 --> 00:36:07.359
But yeah, you're right.

725
00:36:07.399 --> 00:36:09.160
Little friends, friend groups and...

726
00:36:10.040 --> 00:36:23.232
Yeah, so I taught for a few more years, but then because I'd gotten that job in California in administration, and I already had a master's in education, California says, well, you can just take the test because you have a master's and you're doing the job.

727
00:36:23.252 --> 00:36:25.775
So I took a test and got my administrative license.

728
00:36:25.795 --> 00:36:26.836
So I come back to Colorado.

729
00:36:26.876 --> 00:36:30.019
Well, Colorado's like, if you're smart enough for California, you're smart enough for us.

730
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.041
I was like, I don't want to take classes.

731
00:36:32.061 --> 00:36:32.761
I already have a...

732
00:36:34.443 --> 00:36:35.986
You know, I ever got a master's and I got this.

733
00:36:36.146 --> 00:36:37.608
And so they said, well, take our test.

734
00:36:37.628 --> 00:36:38.209
I'm like, okay.

735
00:36:38.449 --> 00:36:41.254
So I took Colorado's test and got the administrator.

736
00:36:41.274 --> 00:36:47.122
So I guess I can admit now on this podcast, I've never took a principal class.

737
00:36:48.352 --> 00:36:48.552
Right.

738
00:36:48.612 --> 00:36:49.393
I never did anything.

739
00:36:49.413 --> 00:36:49.513
Yeah.

740
00:36:49.794 --> 00:36:54.438
Which is part of the motivation why later I ended up getting my doctorate in educational leadership.

741
00:36:54.458 --> 00:36:56.500
Because you weren't really qualified for your job when you first got it.

742
00:36:56.520 --> 00:37:01.184
Well, I was like, you know, in case anyone digs or, you know, that matters to some people.

743
00:37:01.244 --> 00:37:01.525
Yeah.

744
00:37:01.605 --> 00:37:03.507
You know, that I have the degrees.

745
00:37:03.547 --> 00:37:03.747
For sure.

746
00:37:03.767 --> 00:37:04.047
For sure.

747
00:37:04.067 --> 00:37:05.749
So I got that later, but.

748
00:37:06.569 --> 00:37:23.481
I taught a few more years and then at Poudre High School they had an opening and I pursued it and became an assistant principal and did you know all the AD activities everything and then 2013 got the principal job at Rocky for the last 12 years of my career.

749
00:37:24.062 --> 00:37:28.285
What's that job look like like from a practical basis is it

750
00:37:29.957 --> 00:37:51.220
head fire put her outer is it like are you you're leading the leaders i assume for the most part and like how many people report to you when you're the principal is it is it like the city manager you know what's your relationship like with the students i have so many questions yeah it's it's an it's really interesting job i'm not gonna lie to you and it's challenging

751
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:53.924
And I was always a connector with students.

752
00:37:54.725 --> 00:37:58.250
And when you become principal, that's the last group you connect with.

753
00:37:58.310 --> 00:38:03.838
And that was the hardest part for me because I didn't have – there were strong relationships with students that I was used to having.

754
00:38:04.632 --> 00:38:06.212
So yeah, you put out a lot of fires.

755
00:38:06.492 --> 00:38:08.253
I see it as a culture builder.

756
00:38:08.393 --> 00:38:09.793
You're the main culture driver.

757
00:38:09.853 --> 00:38:11.254
You set the stage.

758
00:38:11.314 --> 00:38:12.854
You are intentional about things.

759
00:38:12.874 --> 00:38:13.914
You've got to be consistent.

760
00:38:14.695 --> 00:38:20.596
Are you allowing things outside of your culture, or are you steering the ship along with the culture?

761
00:38:21.996 --> 00:38:27.758
I had an incredible group of assistant principals and deans and support staff in the front office that –

762
00:38:28.378 --> 00:38:30.020
We were just all on the same page.

763
00:38:30.380 --> 00:38:31.841
We saw things similarly.

764
00:38:31.901 --> 00:38:34.684
We cared about kids the same way and education the same way.

765
00:38:35.384 --> 00:38:37.026
And it took a little bit of time.

766
00:38:37.046 --> 00:38:40.469
I walked into a school that was already great, and that's such a blessing.

767
00:38:41.329 --> 00:38:44.692
They'd been around for a long time and they did good things, but I'm like, we can always get better.

768
00:38:44.892 --> 00:38:46.214
Let's not be complacent.

769
00:38:46.254 --> 00:38:53.700
And so some of my ideas about how to teach and how to treat kids frustrated some people, especially those that have been there a while.

770
00:38:53.720 --> 00:38:56.383
Like, no, I do it this way and it's effective.

771
00:38:56.563 --> 00:38:57.123
And you're right.

772
00:38:57.524 --> 00:39:00.907
It is effective, but we're going to build relationships and we're going to do these things.

773
00:39:00.967 --> 00:39:05.190
And so by the time I left, I felt like we were in a really good place as far as,

774
00:39:06.151 --> 00:39:07.432
School was clicking.

775
00:39:07.452 --> 00:39:10.293
We were out of COVID, and that was behind us.

776
00:39:10.953 --> 00:39:12.254
We were building relationships.

777
00:39:12.274 --> 00:39:15.976
We were caring for kids.

778
00:39:16.696 --> 00:39:17.656
Every day is different.

779
00:39:17.816 --> 00:39:18.817
One day, you're a counselor.

780
00:39:18.837 --> 00:39:21.638
The next day, you're running a business.

781
00:39:21.658 --> 00:39:24.980
The next day, you're pushing back on parents.

782
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.721
The next day, you're pushing back on the district.

783
00:39:26.881 --> 00:39:28.561
Then, you're dealing with your own staff.

784
00:39:28.761 --> 00:39:29.142
Then, it's...

785
00:39:30.142 --> 00:39:30.923
start over again.

786
00:39:30.963 --> 00:39:31.923
Now it's a staff meeting.

787
00:39:31.943 --> 00:39:32.964
Now it's a game.

788
00:39:33.964 --> 00:39:35.265
Every day is new.

789
00:39:35.425 --> 00:39:44.970
And to be completely honest, I have no idea how I did that job for 12 years and was a parent, was a husband, was a friend.

790
00:39:45.390 --> 00:39:47.551
Because now... You're kind of a public figure too, right?

791
00:39:47.571 --> 00:39:47.811
True.

792
00:39:48.011 --> 00:39:48.491
Everywhere you go.

793
00:39:48.511 --> 00:39:50.372
All these sports games and you can't miss too many.

794
00:39:50.392 --> 00:39:53.094
You can't walk into Target anymore.

795
00:39:53.534 --> 00:39:53.754
Right.

796
00:39:53.854 --> 00:39:55.075
So it was...

797
00:39:56.135 --> 00:40:01.501
I have such respect for the people that are still in that field because they're in the thick of it.

798
00:40:01.521 --> 00:40:05.746
And I meet with some of them and they're in it.

799
00:40:06.126 --> 00:40:10.491
They are locked in and I care about kids and I'm working hard and it's a beautiful thing.

800
00:40:10.511 --> 00:40:12.152
And I just don't have it anymore.

801
00:40:13.053 --> 00:40:14.535
You know, I knew it was time.

802
00:40:15.460 --> 00:40:17.781
This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank.

803
00:40:18.142 --> 00:40:21.203
Loco Think Tank provides peer collaboration for business owners.

804
00:40:21.523 --> 00:40:28.107
We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with.

805
00:40:28.627 --> 00:40:40.694
Our model features gift-back-minded business veterans in the role of Loco facilitators, and we're always looking for abundance-minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, local community, or to feature on this podcast.

806
00:40:40.994 --> 00:40:46.500
Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free.

807
00:40:46.720 --> 00:40:49.723
Just mention the Loco Experience podcast on your application.

808
00:40:50.584 --> 00:40:53.748
To learn more, visit our website at locothinktank.com.

809
00:40:53.988 --> 00:40:56.611
That's L-O-C-O thinktank.com.

810
00:40:58.647 --> 00:41:08.892
And so you make the decision to retire with this kind of book basically bursting out of you now that we've kind of come back around to where the conversation started.

811
00:41:08.912 --> 00:41:13.095
Had you, like how long did you think about retirement?

812
00:41:13.195 --> 00:41:18.558
And then do you think about commercial real estate again or other things?

813
00:41:18.598 --> 00:41:20.499
Like what do I do next chapter?

814
00:41:21.624 --> 00:41:33.167
Yeah, I'd thought about it for the last few years, and I knew I wanted to hit that 30-year mark, and then I had the opportunity to hit that, and then… That's like the full retirement for the teacher's pension kind of thing.

815
00:41:33.187 --> 00:41:39.949
Yeah, 75%, and was able to do the additional year, and so I knew it was coming in.

816
00:41:39.969 --> 00:41:41.009
Oh, so you get like 75% of your income?

817
00:41:42.744 --> 00:41:45.487
I took a little bit less because it goes for the rest of my wife's life.

818
00:41:45.748 --> 00:41:46.128
Okay.

819
00:41:46.288 --> 00:41:46.969
Instead of just mine.

820
00:41:46.989 --> 00:41:48.411
But still, that's pretty nice.

821
00:41:48.431 --> 00:41:51.455
I don't know what principles make, but not a bad paycheck.

822
00:41:51.555 --> 00:41:53.257
Yeah, we're not living large.

823
00:41:53.297 --> 00:41:56.641
We're hurting a little bit to try to balance, but...

824
00:41:57.068 --> 00:41:59.390
comparatively for the rest of our lives, I'll take it.

825
00:41:59.410 --> 00:42:05.655
Well, it turns out possibly you could make some money doing other things, like selling books or keynote speeches or who knows what.

826
00:42:05.875 --> 00:42:07.977
And I did think about real estate again.

827
00:42:07.997 --> 00:42:09.158
Yeah.

828
00:42:09.378 --> 00:42:17.145
And I didn't want to be at everyone else's beck and call, which is what real estate felt like to me.

829
00:42:17.225 --> 00:42:19.167
Like, hey, I want to go see this house right now.

830
00:42:19.187 --> 00:42:20.528
You've got to come show me –

831
00:42:21.392 --> 00:42:25.476
That's why I thought commercial again, but I don't know anyone in that industry out here.

832
00:42:25.496 --> 00:42:27.298
Where San Diego, I knew everyone in the industry.

833
00:42:27.358 --> 00:42:28.078
It was easier.

834
00:42:28.098 --> 00:42:30.241
Now you're just the old guy trying to get into real estate.

835
00:42:30.421 --> 00:42:31.462
Yeah, like everyone else.

836
00:42:31.502 --> 00:42:32.663
Like everybody else, yeah.

837
00:42:33.242 --> 00:42:34.323
But yeah, I thought about that.

838
00:42:34.343 --> 00:42:36.804
I thought about just getting a job at Home Depot and just calling it good.

839
00:42:36.824 --> 00:42:44.227
But I'm going to see where this book goes and see if it can turn into some speaking or coaching opportunities.

840
00:42:44.307 --> 00:42:44.527
Yeah.

841
00:42:44.908 --> 00:42:48.189
So do you have a target client?

842
00:42:48.209 --> 00:42:55.453
Are you looking for, on the coaching side, are you looking for misdirected youth to engage with you?

843
00:42:55.473 --> 00:42:56.233
Are you looking for CEOs?

844
00:42:56.393 --> 00:42:59.735
Are you looking for would-be high school principals to engage with you?

845
00:43:00.455 --> 00:43:05.518
I would say in the immediacy, it's been principals.

846
00:43:06.198 --> 00:43:06.519
Okay.

847
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:07.959
Or aspiring principals.

848
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:09.520
Yeah.

849
00:43:09.921 --> 00:43:11.842
Aspiring leaders in the education space.

850
00:43:12.462 --> 00:43:13.042
For now.

851
00:43:13.122 --> 00:43:15.644
What I see in the future is expanding that.

852
00:43:15.884 --> 00:43:16.484
Yeah.

853
00:43:16.544 --> 00:43:18.105
To me, leadership is leadership.

854
00:43:19.606 --> 00:43:25.171
And I would often say, look, I was never in the business world except for that one year.

855
00:43:25.491 --> 00:43:31.856
Well, I did run an $11 million business for 12 years with 200 employees.

856
00:43:31.896 --> 00:43:34.638
I mean, there's a lot of people around here in the business world that can't say that.

857
00:43:34.778 --> 00:43:34.978
True.

858
00:43:35.899 --> 00:43:38.120
So I would like to expand.

859
00:43:38.160 --> 00:43:45.222
I think I have a lot to offer people just about leadership and resilience and connection into the private sector some.

860
00:43:45.962 --> 00:43:52.884
But I know I will always keep a foot in the education, principal, aspiring leader world just because –

861
00:43:53.664 --> 00:43:54.885
My wife says it all the time.

862
00:43:54.926 --> 00:43:56.287
You can't just give that up.

863
00:43:57.608 --> 00:43:59.670
What you've learned over the years, you've got to use it.

864
00:43:59.690 --> 00:44:04.835
Well, and the leveraged impact, I think, is where the rubber meets the road there.

865
00:44:04.975 --> 00:44:09.179
If you can help an aspiring leader that...

866
00:44:10.520 --> 00:44:16.125
creates that many more leaders or self-leaders or resilient students and stuff.

867
00:44:16.385 --> 00:44:17.546
There's a lot of impact there.

868
00:44:17.646 --> 00:44:22.790
And probably it's a good place to cultivate at least some of your pursuits.

869
00:44:22.850 --> 00:44:28.474
Do schools pay speakers to come and talk to them or things?

870
00:44:28.514 --> 00:44:32.857
So districts will pay speakers to come in to speak at like a district event.

871
00:44:32.957 --> 00:44:33.197
Yeah.

872
00:44:33.377 --> 00:44:34.959
But there's not a lot of money for –

873
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:38.662
coaching or any of those kind of things.

874
00:44:38.782 --> 00:44:39.563
Yeah, that kind of thing.

875
00:44:39.583 --> 00:44:43.347
So the people I'm working with now, I'm just doing it because I know them.

876
00:44:43.648 --> 00:44:43.868
Yeah.

877
00:44:43.988 --> 00:44:46.230
And I just reached out and I think I can help people.

878
00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:47.952
And I also wanted to see, am I any good at it?

879
00:44:48.413 --> 00:44:48.793
Yeah, right.

880
00:44:48.813 --> 00:44:51.676
Can I even offer, can I offer anyone anything?

881
00:44:51.716 --> 00:44:52.237
Yeah, yeah.

882
00:44:52.577 --> 00:44:53.558
And I think I can.

883
00:44:53.818 --> 00:44:57.541
And so I don't quite know yet how to turn it into a business.

884
00:44:57.601 --> 00:45:05.448
Well, honestly, for what it's worth, we started kind of here with like, if you want to be a leadership coach, you should write a book about leadership because then you'll get a lot more clients.

885
00:45:06.048 --> 00:45:18.258
I think that this book that you've described and some of these stories and journeys that you've had just both in self-reflection and along the journey of your career has

886
00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:25.244
That's to me probably, you know, you talked about how real leaders start with Authentism.

887
00:45:25.504 --> 00:45:25.664
Yeah.

888
00:45:26.144 --> 00:45:29.367
Well, that was a memoir as your card.

889
00:45:29.867 --> 00:45:32.890
How many pages did you end up?

890
00:45:32.910 --> 00:45:34.231
It's like 230, 240.

891
00:45:34.411 --> 00:45:37.133
So more than doubled from that first blush.

892
00:45:37.394 --> 00:45:37.814
That's true.

893
00:45:37.934 --> 00:45:39.135
Most of those stories come through.

894
00:45:39.939 --> 00:45:40.159
Yeah.

895
00:45:40.819 --> 00:45:43.460
And I've got a hundred more that aren't in it.

896
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.561
And I kept telling him, Oh, you know, I just remembered.

897
00:45:45.581 --> 00:45:46.582
She's like, I think you're good.

898
00:45:47.282 --> 00:45:48.482
You can keep some of those.

899
00:45:48.562 --> 00:45:58.446
And you know, I was, I was talking to a guy the other day on a podcast and we had a very similar conversation and he said, tell me how you don't think this is a leadership book.

900
00:45:59.166 --> 00:46:00.947
And I was like, well, it's, it's not about leadership.

901
00:46:00.987 --> 00:46:01.347
It's about it.

902
00:46:01.367 --> 00:46:06.309
He's like, yeah, it kind of is like you're saying it like, it's about being an authentic human.

903
00:46:06.329 --> 00:46:08.550
I got a whole chapter on finding my purpose again and, um,

904
00:46:09.298 --> 00:46:20.843
applying for principal jobs, knowing how I wanted to do it now because it completely shifted me from being a pretty self-centered leader and it's all about me into, no, it's all about the people you serve.

905
00:46:21.483 --> 00:46:22.503
I don't think I'd have gotten there.

906
00:46:22.664 --> 00:46:31.887
Even your motivations as a coach and stuff, that kind of shifted from I want to be the guy that leads the best team to I want to be the guy that gets the best out of this team.

907
00:46:32.528 --> 00:46:33.148
Exactly.

908
00:46:33.168 --> 00:46:34.809
And I talk about there's two kinds of leaders.

909
00:46:34.829 --> 00:46:37.710
You're either a here-I-am leader or a there-you-are.

910
00:46:38.370 --> 00:46:39.430
I was a here I am guy.

911
00:46:39.450 --> 00:46:40.471
That's how I was raised.

912
00:46:40.611 --> 00:46:42.591
My brother and dad are here I am people.

913
00:46:42.731 --> 00:46:44.432
You own the room when you walk in.

914
00:46:44.472 --> 00:46:45.352
It's your room.

915
00:46:45.432 --> 00:46:46.352
It's your team.

916
00:46:46.412 --> 00:46:47.312
It's your classroom.

917
00:46:47.852 --> 00:46:49.333
So I was the sage on the stage.

918
00:46:49.393 --> 00:46:50.033
Listen to me.

919
00:46:50.153 --> 00:46:50.993
I have the wisdom.

920
00:46:51.033 --> 00:46:52.614
And you listen to me as the coach.

921
00:46:53.374 --> 00:46:54.294
All this stuff happened.

922
00:46:54.314 --> 00:46:56.114
I realized everyone's carrying something.

923
00:46:56.535 --> 00:46:59.295
Everyone's got something going on deeper than that.

924
00:47:00.095 --> 00:47:02.116
Focus on them, not on yourself.

925
00:47:02.156 --> 00:47:05.077
And it completely changed my coaching, my teaching, my leadership.

926
00:47:05.777 --> 00:47:05.857
180.

927
00:47:06.798 --> 00:47:10.882
Well, it seems like a solid transition to our Purpose Driven Questions segment.

928
00:47:11.082 --> 00:47:12.904
Thanks to Purpose Driven Wealth for sponsoring.

929
00:47:13.485 --> 00:47:18.351
Thank you to Purpose Driven Wealth of Thriven for sponsoring our Purpose Driven Questions segment.

930
00:47:19.172 --> 00:47:23.957
At Purpose Driven Wealth, they believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose.

931
00:47:24.918 --> 00:47:32.459
Their mission is to help guide clients using a values-driven, stewardship-based approach focused on provision, contentment, and enjoyment.

932
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:44.401
With more than a century of experience, Thriven helps individuals and families navigate life and business transitions and prepare for the future while creating space to live generously and give back in meaningful ways.

933
00:47:45.441 --> 00:47:50.002
To learn more about Purpose Driven Wealth, please call 970-330-7411 for a complimentary initial consultation.

934
00:47:54.783 --> 00:47:55.984
And now, on to the questions.

935
00:47:56.365 --> 00:47:59.107
I've got a handful of questions I'd like to...

936
00:48:00.028 --> 00:48:18.246
I guess we've brushed on faith a little bit, but I'd love to hear a little bit more of an expansion on kind of what faith means to you in today's world, how it kind of has imparted wisdom to your journey even in some of these junctures.

937
00:48:19.090 --> 00:48:19.850
I appreciate that.

938
00:48:19.970 --> 00:48:26.212
So I was raised Catholic, and what that meant was we went on Christmas and Easter, maybe.

939
00:48:26.992 --> 00:48:28.793
And it was an argument to do that.

940
00:48:28.833 --> 00:48:29.213
Yeah, yeah.

941
00:48:29.613 --> 00:48:33.234
And it wasn't, by the grace of God... You didn't really know what the good news was.

942
00:48:33.294 --> 00:48:33.534
No.

943
00:48:34.034 --> 00:48:39.976
I had, you know, Catholicism and relationships don't really link.

944
00:48:40.176 --> 00:48:42.077
And so I was lucky that we had a guy...

945
00:48:42.877 --> 00:49:03.552
move in with a catholic background who wanted to run more of a young life type youth group that's actually who i just stayed with when i was out in san diego cool still uh friends with him and he just basically talked about relationship with god and relationship with jesus i'm like wait what now relationship like that doesn't come up on christmas yeah like

946
00:49:04.782 --> 00:49:07.445
I hear about confession and penances and stuff.

947
00:49:07.505 --> 00:49:09.728
Right, Hail Marys and whatnot.

948
00:49:09.828 --> 00:49:15.474
And so it really opened my eyes to there's more to this life than what I thought there was.

949
00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:22.964
It was a long journey, and now it's foundational to me and my family.

950
00:49:23.044 --> 00:49:30.230
And I'm actually lucky enough I'm going to preach at our church at Timberline this weekend.

951
00:49:30.550 --> 00:49:34.312
I told him, I said, I'm happy to do an interview or a video, and I'm like, I'll take the weekend.

952
00:49:34.553 --> 00:49:36.074
I'm like, okay.

953
00:49:36.114 --> 00:49:41.438
But I'm basically going to talk about how Jesus can meet you in your struggles.

954
00:49:41.458 --> 00:49:43.799
And you can come to him in the middle of those...

955
00:49:45.341 --> 00:50:00.343
adverse situations where you feel alone like i always did and uh and just how i learned to to have that just it's really a relationship driven faith relationship driven and and it really just it's a it's a support for me and my family big time

956
00:50:03.873 --> 00:50:08.034
Talk to me about where your sense of purpose was developed.

957
00:50:08.094 --> 00:50:10.115
Is there a relationship in your past?

958
00:50:10.135 --> 00:50:20.117
It doesn't sound like it was necessarily your father or your brother that were encouraging that kind of servant-hearted leadership and teaching kind of evolution.

959
00:50:20.177 --> 00:50:22.557
But who or what inspired that?

960
00:50:22.577 --> 00:50:23.297
A couple of people.

961
00:50:23.357 --> 00:50:31.599
I remember a coach, a basketball coach, telling us at the end of the season, even when you leave, I'll always be your coach.

962
00:50:32.590 --> 00:50:35.111
And I thought, whoa, that's deep.

963
00:50:35.131 --> 00:50:37.631
Like you want to pour into me even when I'm gone from here?

964
00:50:37.691 --> 00:50:38.872
Like what?

965
00:50:39.512 --> 00:50:47.614
And I remember this guy, I mentioned the youth group guy, Bob, he, he, you know, taught me a lot about God, but also relationships.

966
00:50:47.754 --> 00:50:59.057
And, and, and those two people probably had a pretty instrumental, helped me shift my purpose and my focus away from what I was raised to be, which is make money and,

967
00:50:59.597 --> 00:51:01.940
make a living and buy the big house and the cars.

968
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:04.382
But you somehow drifted into teaching even despite that.

969
00:51:04.402 --> 00:51:06.624
Right, because... Because that was one of their influence.

970
00:51:06.644 --> 00:51:11.209
Yeah, because I started seeing, no, I want to pour into people the same way those people poured into me.

971
00:51:12.230 --> 00:51:17.075
And that's really what shifted my purpose, I think, in that direction was...

972
00:51:17.695 --> 00:51:20.235
was knowing people poured into me that didn't have to.

973
00:51:21.296 --> 00:51:23.556
And now I know the influence I can have on people.

974
00:51:23.576 --> 00:51:25.816
Cause I was one of those guys that everyone thought was fine.

975
00:51:26.477 --> 00:51:26.997
I had friends.

976
00:51:27.037 --> 00:51:28.577
I was pretty good athlete, good student.

977
00:51:28.597 --> 00:51:29.037
You're good.

978
00:51:29.057 --> 00:51:29.637
You're fine.

979
00:51:29.657 --> 00:51:30.497
Like I'm not good.

980
00:51:30.737 --> 00:51:30.957
Right.

981
00:51:31.017 --> 00:51:35.378
Like every, if you want to talk about at risk youth, it's called a teenager.

982
00:51:35.678 --> 00:51:43.159
Every single teenager is at risk, but no one would ask me until I started building these relationships with some mentors who would pour into me.

983
00:51:43.179 --> 00:51:46.040
I'm like, okay, that's what I want to do.

984
00:51:46.140 --> 00:51:47.140
I want to be that person.

985
00:51:47.484 --> 00:51:48.789
for teenagers as well.

986
00:51:48.849 --> 00:51:50.334
And so that's really where it started.

987
00:51:50.930 --> 00:51:52.771
Dig it.

988
00:51:53.131 --> 00:51:55.491
Can we talk about your family a little bit?

989
00:51:55.511 --> 00:51:55.711
Sure.

990
00:51:55.991 --> 00:51:58.572
You said at one point we had two kids and we wanted more.

991
00:52:00.193 --> 00:52:00.893
Did you get more?

992
00:52:01.133 --> 00:52:01.473
We did.

993
00:52:01.753 --> 00:52:02.033
Good.

994
00:52:02.493 --> 00:52:03.394
We got four kids.

995
00:52:04.314 --> 00:52:06.454
They are 25 down to 16.

996
00:52:06.995 --> 00:52:18.458
I sometimes do the one-word description challenge if you would like to share them, maybe in descending order, a name and a one-word description with a little color to follow.

997
00:52:19.617 --> 00:52:19.837
Wow.

998
00:52:20.198 --> 00:52:20.558
Okay.

999
00:52:21.499 --> 00:52:23.520
I guess I'll start with our oldest, Jordan.

1000
00:52:23.780 --> 00:52:24.861
I will say driven.

1001
00:52:26.202 --> 00:52:26.603
Hey, Jordan.

1002
00:52:27.543 --> 00:52:29.225
Ryan is my oldest daughter.

1003
00:52:29.265 --> 00:52:30.866
And then my second daughter is Ryan.

1004
00:52:31.747 --> 00:52:35.650
I will say, I'm going to use two words, the glue.

1005
00:52:35.670 --> 00:52:36.511
Okay.

1006
00:52:36.531 --> 00:52:37.431
She's our connector.

1007
00:52:37.451 --> 00:52:37.812
Yeah, yeah.

1008
00:52:38.052 --> 00:52:38.352
You know?

1009
00:52:38.412 --> 00:52:38.652
Yeah.

1010
00:52:40.133 --> 00:52:41.715
My son is Nathan.

1011
00:52:42.035 --> 00:52:44.637
He's now 20 up at Boise State, I would say.

1012
00:52:44.657 --> 00:52:44.757
Okay.

1013
00:52:48.391 --> 00:53:05.862
joy he just finds the positive in everything love it he always has and i don't and so i don't know right um avery is our youngest 16 i would say um she's

1014
00:53:07.750 --> 00:53:10.131
She's almost the hardest for me to come up with one word.

1015
00:53:10.272 --> 00:53:18.396
I would say unique in that she has so many different passion areas that don't necessarily connect.

1016
00:53:18.456 --> 00:53:20.157
She loves missions trips.

1017
00:53:20.197 --> 00:53:21.718
She loves serving at our church.

1018
00:53:21.738 --> 00:53:22.759
She loves sports.

1019
00:53:22.799 --> 00:53:26.961
She loves – most of our kids landed in one area.

1020
00:53:27.061 --> 00:53:27.461
Eclectic.

1021
00:53:27.501 --> 00:53:28.962
I'm going to change her word to eclectic.

1022
00:53:29.002 --> 00:53:29.442
I like it.

1023
00:53:29.663 --> 00:53:30.123
I like it.

1024
00:53:30.343 --> 00:53:33.585
Just because she has so many strengths and so many skills.

1025
00:53:34.045 --> 00:53:34.265
Yeah.

1026
00:53:34.485 --> 00:53:35.506
In so many different areas.

1027
00:53:36.147 --> 00:53:37.888
A renaissance young woman of sorts.

1028
00:53:37.908 --> 00:53:40.390
Right, and I can't – I'm not going to choose for it.

1029
00:53:40.470 --> 00:53:41.771
I'm going to start making wine.

1030
00:53:41.791 --> 00:53:41.951
Yeah.

1031
00:53:41.971 --> 00:53:42.672
You're not even 21.

1032
00:53:42.692 --> 00:53:44.653
Well, that's my second time I did that during COVID.

1033
00:53:44.673 --> 00:53:45.614
I'm going to start a business.

1034
00:53:45.694 --> 00:53:45.934
What?

1035
00:53:46.394 --> 00:53:49.577
And she just started – yeah, it's crazy what kids do.

1036
00:53:50.195 --> 00:53:50.495
Awesome.

1037
00:53:50.595 --> 00:53:57.860
So you've got like three more years or so of the youngest around or whatever.

1038
00:53:57.900 --> 00:53:58.341
Who knows?

1039
00:53:58.361 --> 00:53:59.141
She's a junior.

1040
00:53:59.161 --> 00:53:59.541
These days.

1041
00:54:00.182 --> 00:54:04.425
But do you guys have a different plan for after the nest is empty?

1042
00:54:04.765 --> 00:54:05.906
And what's your wife's name, by the way?

1043
00:54:05.966 --> 00:54:06.366
Renee.

1044
00:54:06.386 --> 00:54:08.327
Hi, Renee.

1045
00:54:08.347 --> 00:54:12.230
Renee is a psychologist here in town, and she's been doing that for years.

1046
00:54:12.270 --> 00:54:14.191
She's very good at it, and she has...

1047
00:54:15.492 --> 00:54:18.474
started to transition into like a retirement coaching model.

1048
00:54:19.034 --> 00:54:23.716
She's building like retirement coaching classes for people and going to build intensives.

1049
00:54:23.816 --> 00:54:29.519
And my perfect world would be she has the flexibility to do that from anywhere.

1050
00:54:29.739 --> 00:54:29.939
Yeah.

1051
00:54:30.439 --> 00:54:33.441
You know, where there's a lot of restrictions around therapists.

1052
00:54:33.461 --> 00:54:37.583
They don't want you, you know, your license in a state for a reason.

1053
00:54:38.123 --> 00:54:40.224
And so with the coaching thing, maybe that'll open that up.

1054
00:54:41.383 --> 00:54:43.344
I was just in San Diego for a few days.

1055
00:54:43.504 --> 00:54:44.724
I can't get enough of that place.

1056
00:54:44.884 --> 00:54:49.786
My dream is I would be able to ride in a golf cart to the beach.

1057
00:54:51.387 --> 00:54:52.607
I do not have enough money for that.

1058
00:54:53.167 --> 00:54:56.008
And so that probably will never happen.

1059
00:54:56.028 --> 00:54:56.769
And so it'll be.

1060
00:54:56.829 --> 00:55:00.050
Well, not from San Diego, but there's places.

1061
00:55:00.070 --> 00:55:01.350
I don't know where else I'd want to do it.

1062
00:55:01.370 --> 00:55:02.351
I've been to Florida.

1063
00:55:02.551 --> 00:55:02.731
Yeah.

1064
00:55:02.751 --> 00:55:03.791
I don't need to go back.

1065
00:55:03.991 --> 00:55:04.211
Yeah.

1066
00:55:04.432 --> 00:55:04.912
Okay.

1067
00:55:05.392 --> 00:55:06.932
We're just San Diego people.

1068
00:55:06.952 --> 00:55:08.053
We go to Mexico a lot.

1069
00:55:08.753 --> 00:55:09.233
And I love it.

1070
00:55:09.253 --> 00:55:10.134
And every time I'm down there.

1071
00:55:10.154 --> 00:55:10.974
Cabo is pretty sweet.

1072
00:55:10.994 --> 00:55:11.754
I was just in Cabo.

1073
00:55:11.774 --> 00:55:16.336
You can ride a golf cart to the beach in a pretty affordable-ish place.

1074
00:55:16.436 --> 00:55:18.697
I've thought, we've thought of Costa Rica.

1075
00:55:18.957 --> 00:55:20.678
Yeah, Costa Rica, Panama, that kind of stuff.

1076
00:55:20.698 --> 00:55:22.158
We've thought about all those things.

1077
00:55:22.198 --> 00:55:23.619
So we'll see.

1078
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:31.882
I think what probably is more realistic is down the road, we will downsize, stay here in northern Colorado because that's where our connections are.

1079
00:55:31.962 --> 00:55:33.923
And then that will free us up to, you know, go.

1080
00:55:34.163 --> 00:55:38.569
do an Airbnb in Costa Rica for two weeks and go to San Diego for a little while.

1081
00:55:38.749 --> 00:55:39.130
Yeah.

1082
00:55:39.270 --> 00:55:42.914
Go where our kids, my wife is wherever our kids end up is where we're going.

1083
00:55:42.934 --> 00:55:43.335
Right.

1084
00:55:43.435 --> 00:55:46.058
Well, or we end up somewhere they want to visit.

1085
00:55:46.879 --> 00:55:47.320
Even better.

1086
00:55:47.520 --> 00:55:48.962
So as long as you pick, right.

1087
00:55:49.002 --> 00:55:49.182
Yeah.

1088
00:55:49.202 --> 00:55:50.164
We'll probably do both those things.

1089
00:55:50.244 --> 00:55:50.464
Yeah.

1090
00:55:51.445 --> 00:55:52.346
Dig it.

1091
00:55:52.686 --> 00:55:57.269
I think it's a good time to get set up for the loco experience.

1092
00:55:57.829 --> 00:56:03.633
So this is our crazy ginger hot sauce from Matador Mexican Grill.

1093
00:56:03.833 --> 00:56:06.695
You can get this retail from those guys.

1094
00:56:06.795 --> 00:56:07.455
Good burritos.

1095
00:56:07.495 --> 00:56:08.796
We get it custom ordered here.

1096
00:56:10.417 --> 00:56:22.143
It's a peach bell pepper carrot base with an absurd amount of habanero and a sprinkle of ghost and some fresh garlic and fresh ginger.

1097
00:56:22.463 --> 00:56:23.683
So you're wanting me to eat one of those?

1098
00:56:23.803 --> 00:56:24.024
Yeah.

1099
00:56:24.664 --> 00:56:25.244
Two if you want.

1100
00:56:25.264 --> 00:56:25.784
You probably will.

1101
00:56:26.945 --> 00:56:28.065
Here, I can pass the door closer.

1102
00:56:35.229 --> 00:56:37.970
Now some tasting notes for our listeners when you're ready.

1103
00:56:47.247 --> 00:56:54.270
So for someone that grew up in San Diego, and I feel like probably three-quarters of my meals have been Mexican food.

1104
00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:54.811
Okay.

1105
00:56:55.051 --> 00:56:56.451
I'm not a big salsa guy.

1106
00:56:56.711 --> 00:56:56.931
Okay.

1107
00:56:57.192 --> 00:56:59.052
But that's really good.

1108
00:56:59.573 --> 00:57:01.013
It's got a little kick to it.

1109
00:57:01.053 --> 00:57:01.233
Yep.

1110
00:57:01.434 --> 00:57:02.374
But not too much.

1111
00:57:02.394 --> 00:57:03.635
It keeps crawling a little bit after.

1112
00:57:03.655 --> 00:57:04.575
Even for someone like me.

1113
00:57:04.755 --> 00:57:04.995
Awesome.

1114
00:57:05.656 --> 00:57:06.156
Like that's...

1115
00:57:06.856 --> 00:57:07.957
I'll be using that for sure.

1116
00:57:07.997 --> 00:57:09.739
My youngest will love it.

1117
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:13.042
Because she puts ourselves on everything.

1118
00:57:13.202 --> 00:57:13.503
Avery?

1119
00:57:13.683 --> 00:57:14.043
Avery.

1120
00:57:14.123 --> 00:57:14.624
Hi, Avery.

1121
00:57:15.224 --> 00:57:15.825
Hope you like it.

1122
00:57:15.945 --> 00:57:17.787
Hope you like this conversation with your dad.

1123
00:57:18.507 --> 00:57:22.151
I don't hope you forgive him for whatever he tells us in this.

1124
00:57:22.291 --> 00:57:22.591
Oh, wait.

1125
00:57:22.932 --> 00:57:24.593
We're not ready for the local experience yet.

1126
00:57:25.358 --> 00:57:30.100
So tell us a small story while I go get us the WhizCal shots.

1127
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:30.600
Okay.

1128
00:57:30.660 --> 00:57:34.041
Because that has to precede the local experience sharing.

1129
00:57:34.482 --> 00:57:34.682
All right.

1130
00:57:34.702 --> 00:57:36.342
Do you want to give me a little direction on this story?

1131
00:57:36.362 --> 00:57:39.063
Just any story from the book, perhaps.

1132
00:57:39.083 --> 00:57:44.686
You said you've got 100 more 9-11 stories in addition to the 100 that we didn't share here.

1133
00:57:45.486 --> 00:57:48.387
But I left my WhizCal over there, and I don't want to pause the podcast.

1134
00:57:48.427 --> 00:57:48.887
All right.

1135
00:57:48.907 --> 00:57:50.048
So I've got a great story for you.

1136
00:57:50.088 --> 00:57:50.248
Okay.

1137
00:57:52.432 --> 00:57:55.853
My dad and I, at the first anniversary, were given these posters.

1138
00:57:56.313 --> 00:58:02.354
And they were posters of the faces of everyone that died on 9-11 that made a photo mosaic of towers.

1139
00:58:04.054 --> 00:58:07.275
And so they put them in these poster tubes for us.

1140
00:58:08.035 --> 00:58:14.096
My dad and I are both thinking we don't want to fly home with all these new regulations of these huge poster tubes.

1141
00:58:15.236 --> 00:58:18.557
So first anniversary, we go, we do all this stuff.

1142
00:58:18.597 --> 00:58:19.557
It's the afternoon.

1143
00:58:20.017 --> 00:58:21.317
He's like, let's go mail these things.

1144
00:58:22.540 --> 00:58:35.807
So we step out of our hotel, and the bellman instantly puts his hands right on my dad's chest and pushes my dad in and says, You cannot be out here right now.

1145
00:58:36.408 --> 00:58:39.109
Now, if you know anything about my dad, you don't do that to my dad.

1146
00:58:39.509 --> 00:58:40.710
That's the best way to...

1147
00:58:40.883 --> 00:58:42.123
So it is on.

1148
00:58:42.163 --> 00:58:45.964
He is yelling and screaming, and I grab both of them and separate them.

1149
00:58:46.804 --> 00:58:50.625
And I said, Dad, look, there is no one out here.

1150
00:58:51.465 --> 00:58:52.245
It's a ghost town.

1151
00:58:52.265 --> 00:58:53.986
We're in the middle of Manhattan.

1152
00:58:54.026 --> 00:58:55.066
It is a ghost town.

1153
00:58:55.186 --> 00:58:56.046
What happened?

1154
00:58:56.146 --> 00:58:57.766
Honestly, I'm not going to lie to you.

1155
00:58:57.946 --> 00:59:00.147
I thought something like a terrorist attack happened again.

1156
00:59:00.847 --> 00:59:02.147
Like, why is no one out here?

1157
00:59:03.567 --> 00:59:06.348
Instantly around the corner comes these black suburbans.

1158
00:59:07.402 --> 00:59:10.783
And they jump out with their machine guns, and they are on my dad and I.

1159
00:59:10.803 --> 00:59:11.963
Because the bellman took off.

1160
00:59:12.083 --> 00:59:12.743
He went inside.

1161
00:59:13.003 --> 00:59:16.844
So the only two people on the entire block are my dad and I with these poster tubes.

1162
00:59:17.805 --> 00:59:21.286
And so they are out there on the ground with their machine guns pointed at us.

1163
00:59:21.346 --> 00:59:22.626
And I didn't know what to do.

1164
00:59:22.666 --> 00:59:23.666
Do I put my hands up?

1165
00:59:23.686 --> 00:59:24.966
Do I drop the poster tube?

1166
00:59:24.986 --> 00:59:26.067
Do I go on the ground?

1167
00:59:26.107 --> 00:59:26.447
Do I...

1168
00:59:27.427 --> 00:59:28.008
I just froze.

1169
00:59:28.048 --> 00:59:29.369
I just stood there like, I'm not moving.

1170
00:59:29.429 --> 00:59:29.929
I'm not moving.

1171
00:59:30.910 --> 00:59:40.419
And like the third suburban pulls around and Hamid Karzai, who was the newly placed leader of Afghanistan, was staying in the hotel across the street.

1172
00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:41.019
Okay.

1173
00:59:41.160 --> 00:59:42.961
And so they had to escort him in.

1174
00:59:43.001 --> 00:59:47.325
He just addressed the UN and they brought him in.

1175
00:59:47.846 --> 00:59:52.189
So they walk him in, jump back into the thing, pull guns off us and take off.

1176
00:59:53.911 --> 00:59:57.392
I was like, let's go mail these things and be done.

1177
00:59:57.472 --> 00:59:59.073
It was the craziest thing.

1178
01:00:00.074 --> 01:00:04.096
We walked in silence for about two minutes, and then we both just started laughing.

1179
01:00:04.456 --> 01:00:04.636
Right.

1180
01:00:04.896 --> 01:00:06.617
Like, this has been the most intense day.

1181
01:00:07.037 --> 01:00:15.262
We heard my brother or his son's name read off as a victim of a terrorist attack, and then a couple hours later, a machine gun pulled on us in the middle of Manhattan.

1182
01:00:16.643 --> 01:00:20.146
Luckily, that was the worst of it, and then we got them mailed off.

1183
01:00:20.707 --> 01:00:21.328
Well, good.

1184
01:00:21.528 --> 01:00:25.933
And then my poster got ruined in a house flood years later.

1185
01:00:26.093 --> 01:00:26.473
Bummer.

1186
01:00:27.554 --> 01:00:31.258
The only experience I have that contrasts at all with that is...

1187
01:00:32.379 --> 01:00:37.322
My brother-in-law was on a nuclear sub for a while and was stationed in Silverton.

1188
01:00:38.262 --> 01:00:47.767
And when their sub was leaving port one time, we went to wherever the subs crossed through to leave the protected port over there.

1189
01:00:49.008 --> 01:00:51.389
And my father-in-law was like, hey, check it out.

1190
01:00:51.509 --> 01:00:57.773
There's this gate that leads all the way down to right by the shore that somebody apparently left unlocked.

1191
01:00:58.953 --> 01:01:00.935
And so we're on this like...

1192
01:01:02.098 --> 01:01:12.186
basically a dock, like at the edge of the thing, in a place that clearly had signs that said, don't go here, but the gate was open and no one was there.

1193
01:01:12.506 --> 01:01:13.707
And so we're all like...

1194
01:01:14.463 --> 01:01:25.694
waving from the shore as this sub goes through, and then we get noticed, and they roll up with, like, three official cars and dudes with guns, and they're like, WTF, are you doing here?

1195
01:01:25.734 --> 01:01:29.177
That was, like, 2004 or something, so people were pretty excited about stuff.

1196
01:01:29.197 --> 01:01:30.699
Yeah, this was September 11, 2002.

1197
01:01:30.799 --> 01:01:34.623
I mean, it was at the height of all that for us, but...

1198
01:01:35.023 --> 01:01:35.223
Anyway.

1199
01:01:35.483 --> 01:01:36.023
We survived.

1200
01:01:36.123 --> 01:01:36.603
I digress.

1201
01:01:36.964 --> 01:01:37.424
Yeah.

1202
01:01:38.164 --> 01:01:43.865
And it's now time, and I sprinkled some more chips there if you feel like you want some more.

1203
01:01:43.885 --> 01:01:44.425
Go get Avery.

1204
01:01:44.505 --> 01:01:48.266
First, I want to say thanks to Seed and Spirit Distilling.

1205
01:01:48.807 --> 01:01:51.787
I was over there today and picked up some fresh WizCal.

1206
01:01:52.387 --> 01:01:53.008
Thank you, guys.

1207
01:01:54.008 --> 01:02:01.290
And so we like to go into our local experience by sampling a little shooter of WizCal before we go.

1208
01:02:01.750 --> 01:02:02.410
Thanks for being here.

1209
01:02:05.408 --> 01:02:08.029
Also tasty notes for the WizCal.

1210
01:02:09.089 --> 01:02:11.570
You said you were more of a tequila guy than a Mezcal guy.

1211
01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:14.031
Yeah, Mezcal's a little smokier for me.

1212
01:02:14.311 --> 01:02:14.531
Yeah.

1213
01:02:14.851 --> 01:02:15.411
Than tequila.

1214
01:02:15.531 --> 01:02:16.512
That's not really your thing.

1215
01:02:17.172 --> 01:02:18.312
Not as much, but... Fair.

1216
01:02:18.792 --> 01:02:19.212
Yeah.

1217
01:02:19.232 --> 01:02:21.993
I like that with the whiskey mixed in more than straight Mezcal.

1218
01:02:22.053 --> 01:02:23.954
It actually makes a really good old-fashioned, too.

1219
01:02:24.314 --> 01:02:24.554
Oh.

1220
01:02:24.734 --> 01:02:24.994
Yeah.

1221
01:02:25.074 --> 01:02:25.334
Okay.

1222
01:02:25.914 --> 01:02:26.875
Maybe next time we'll do that.

1223
01:02:26.995 --> 01:02:28.375
Yeah, or in a couple minutes.

1224
01:02:29.135 --> 01:02:29.616
Perhaps.

1225
01:02:29.676 --> 01:02:30.176
Perhaps.

1226
01:02:31.116 --> 01:02:36.699
Um, let's, uh, let's get into the, the local experience story.

1227
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:39.481
That, that one, that last story wasn't even your crazy experience.

1228
01:02:39.541 --> 01:02:39.681
No.

1229
01:02:39.841 --> 01:02:40.802
Not the craziest one.

1230
01:02:41.522 --> 01:02:46.565
Uh, sounds like there's more than a couple of crazies, but Cuba, something Guantanamo Bay.

1231
01:02:47.946 --> 01:02:48.186
Right.

1232
01:02:48.246 --> 01:02:55.690
So there's an organization that flies down 9-11 families to sit in the courtrooms to watch the proceedings of, of the.

1233
01:02:56.483 --> 01:02:59.365
prisoners that are held on Guantanamo Bay for 9-11.

1234
01:02:59.945 --> 01:03:02.907
I've been able to go down twice and sit in the courtroom.

1235
01:03:02.927 --> 01:03:04.728
These are like cool conspirators of it.

1236
01:03:04.908 --> 01:03:07.350
Well, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the main one that's down there.

1237
01:03:07.710 --> 01:03:09.711
And he thought of everything.

1238
01:03:09.731 --> 01:03:11.172
He brought it all to Osama bin Laden.

1239
01:03:11.232 --> 01:03:13.074
Osama bin Laden just said, yes, go for it.

1240
01:03:13.094 --> 01:03:13.674
I got the money.

1241
01:03:13.994 --> 01:03:14.334
Gotcha.

1242
01:03:14.635 --> 01:03:16.976
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed himself has beheaded people.

1243
01:03:17.016 --> 01:03:17.797
I mean, he is.

1244
01:03:18.077 --> 01:03:19.137
He's a real bad guy.

1245
01:03:19.638 --> 01:03:25.041
And to be honest, I can't even remember the names of some of the other ones right now that are down there.

1246
01:03:25.061 --> 01:03:26.302
But him, I remember.

1247
01:03:26.700 --> 01:03:28.704
And I remember when he was captured, I remember all that.

1248
01:03:28.764 --> 01:03:29.105
And so.

1249
01:03:30.148 --> 01:03:35.950
To be able to be down there, to be in the same courtroom, behind glass, but be in the same courtroom with them.

1250
01:03:35.970 --> 01:03:36.530
What an honor, kind of.

1251
01:03:36.550 --> 01:03:44.092
That's actually pretty, like, was anybody that was impacted like that, like, able to kind of try to get a ticket for this or whatever?

1252
01:03:44.112 --> 01:03:45.432
So it's only family members.

1253
01:03:45.532 --> 01:03:45.812
Yeah.

1254
01:03:46.072 --> 01:03:47.572
But I can bring someone.

1255
01:03:47.633 --> 01:03:48.773
Like, you can bring a support person.

1256
01:03:48.793 --> 01:03:49.433
Or powerless or something.

1257
01:03:49.493 --> 01:03:50.753
And they keep it really small.

1258
01:03:50.773 --> 01:03:54.754
And the USS Cole, if you remember, that was 2000, the ship.

1259
01:03:55.314 --> 01:03:56.415
That's also going on.

1260
01:03:56.655 --> 01:03:56.735
Hmm.

1261
01:03:56.755 --> 01:03:56.835
Hmm.

1262
01:03:57.570 --> 01:04:01.394
And so when I first went, most of the people were for the USS Cole.

1263
01:04:01.414 --> 01:04:05.498
There were two people that served on the Cole and a dad who lost his daughter on the Cole.

1264
01:04:05.919 --> 01:04:07.540
They were down to sit in that courtroom.

1265
01:04:08.161 --> 01:04:11.725
And the second time, it was all 9-11 families that had gone down.

1266
01:04:13.075 --> 01:04:14.696
I get sweaty from hot sauce sometimes.

1267
01:04:14.736 --> 01:04:16.038
That's what's happening to me right now.

1268
01:04:16.078 --> 01:04:16.498
That's all right.

1269
01:04:16.518 --> 01:04:17.098
It's not tears.

1270
01:04:18.319 --> 01:04:30.530
Before we get to the story itself, people hear Guantanamo Bay and stuff, but I don't know if anybody really has barely an understanding from the layman's terms.

1271
01:04:30.770 --> 01:04:31.691
What are we talking about here?

1272
01:04:31.731 --> 01:04:39.497
It's like the end of Cuba almost, and the U.S. owns it, I guess, or we took it a long time ago, so it's ours now.

1273
01:04:40.338 --> 01:04:41.559
How big a base is it?

1274
01:04:41.659 --> 01:04:47.642
Is it comparable to like the – I've been to San Diego to the naval base kind of thing there.

1275
01:04:47.702 --> 01:04:50.203
Is it a naval facility mostly, first and foremost?

1276
01:04:50.223 --> 01:04:53.185
But they can house a ton of prisoners there, so it must not be that.

1277
01:04:53.285 --> 01:04:55.106
So it's southeast Cuba.

1278
01:04:55.786 --> 01:04:56.066
Okay.

1279
01:04:56.186 --> 01:04:58.807
And we got it in the Spanish-American War, 1898.

1280
01:05:00.288 --> 01:05:01.849
And we've held it since.

1281
01:05:02.149 --> 01:05:03.610
It's been contentious since.

1282
01:05:04.430 --> 01:05:15.139
And they actually rent it from Cuba, and they claim Cuba has only cashed one check over the years, and that person probably did not go well for them because they just refused to.

1283
01:05:16.580 --> 01:05:19.363
It's a pretty big base.

1284
01:05:19.463 --> 01:05:23.906
It's more like Camp Pendleton in San Diego that sprawls over a lot of places so they can do training.

1285
01:05:25.288 --> 01:05:26.849
It's the most unique place because...

1286
01:05:28.146 --> 01:05:31.410
There are dilapidated buildings right there, condemned.

1287
01:05:31.651 --> 01:05:38.820
You can't walk in it next to the most modern technology you'll ever see right next to each other.

1288
01:05:39.340 --> 01:05:44.507
And then like the courtrooms are not – it looks like a high school annex building.

1289
01:05:46.069 --> 01:05:46.349
Yeah.

1290
01:05:46.429 --> 01:05:47.790
Like, what is happening here?

1291
01:05:47.850 --> 01:05:52.453
And then it is a very unique experience.

1292
01:05:52.713 --> 01:05:53.634
It is pretty big.

1293
01:05:53.674 --> 01:05:56.156
So you're flying in and out on a military transport, basically.

1294
01:05:56.176 --> 01:05:56.736
No, you don't.

1295
01:05:56.996 --> 01:06:04.441
And the last thing I'll say, though, about the base is it's got all, what is it called when it's all four of them?

1296
01:06:04.921 --> 01:06:07.923
Joint base or joint task force or something like that.

1297
01:06:08.964 --> 01:06:13.408
So there's Marines in one area, there's Army in another area, so they're all there mixed in.

1298
01:06:13.548 --> 01:06:13.828
Got it.

1299
01:06:13.888 --> 01:06:14.829
And they all have different roles.

1300
01:06:14.849 --> 01:06:19.053
So you fly in and out of Andrews Air Force Base.

1301
01:06:19.293 --> 01:06:28.961
So you've got to get to D.C., and then they never know what company is going to supply the plane, but it's a normal civilian plane.

1302
01:06:29.041 --> 01:06:30.402
It's not a military plane.

1303
01:06:30.422 --> 01:06:31.343
But it's not going to Havana.

1304
01:06:31.363 --> 01:06:31.483
Yeah.

1305
01:06:31.863 --> 01:06:32.043
No.

1306
01:06:32.123 --> 01:06:34.745
And you take an Uber.

1307
01:06:35.345 --> 01:06:36.806
It goes straight to Guantanamo.

1308
01:06:37.066 --> 01:06:47.372
It lands, and then it picks up the group that was there the week before, and it flies back, and it sits on Andrews, or it goes and does whatever, and then it comes back and picks us up the next week.

1309
01:06:47.412 --> 01:06:47.652
Right.

1310
01:06:48.232 --> 01:06:50.094
Okay, thanks for setting that stage for me a little bit.

1311
01:06:50.114 --> 01:06:55.037
Because I think maybe I'm the ignorant one, but it's like a kind of a mysterious place.

1312
01:06:55.057 --> 01:06:56.218
I didn't know anything about it.

1313
01:06:56.258 --> 01:06:56.518
Right.

1314
01:06:56.718 --> 01:06:57.419
You hear about it.

1315
01:06:57.439 --> 01:06:58.980
I heard the name a thousand times.

1316
01:06:59.661 --> 01:07:02.002
The prison, it's not very big.

1317
01:07:02.983 --> 01:07:05.825
And they've had different versions of it.

1318
01:07:05.845 --> 01:07:08.407
They said, oh, it used to be over there, but it was really run down.

1319
01:07:09.428 --> 01:07:14.752
And it looks like if you were to take a local middle school or a local elementary school,

1320
01:07:15.568 --> 01:07:22.274
And just put four to five layers of barbed wire fence at 15, 20 feet high.

1321
01:07:22.314 --> 01:07:23.776
That's what it looks like.

1322
01:07:23.816 --> 01:07:25.978
It does not look like what you'd think of a prison.

1323
01:07:26.138 --> 01:07:26.738
Yeah.

1324
01:07:26.798 --> 01:07:28.300
And we can't tour it.

1325
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:29.060
We can't go in.

1326
01:07:29.100 --> 01:07:30.722
But they do drive you past it.

1327
01:07:31.342 --> 01:07:32.564
They're like, we're not supposed to stop.

1328
01:07:32.584 --> 01:07:33.504
So they go real slow.

1329
01:07:34.165 --> 01:07:35.046
And then you can see it.

1330
01:07:35.086 --> 01:07:36.507
I was like, whoa, that's crazy.

1331
01:07:36.527 --> 01:07:36.667
And...

1332
01:07:38.008 --> 01:07:40.370
But, yeah, you're in the courtroom, and there they go.

1333
01:07:40.410 --> 01:07:43.613
They walk in, and there's Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right there.

1334
01:07:43.773 --> 01:07:46.855
Yeah.

1335
01:07:46.935 --> 01:07:48.557
It's a pretty rundown.

1336
01:07:49.558 --> 01:07:54.581
No, I shouldn't say rundown as much as they built a bunch of housing for people.

1337
01:07:54.601 --> 01:07:56.123
It's utilitarian.

1338
01:07:56.183 --> 01:07:56.903
But then it got...

1339
01:07:57.944 --> 01:08:01.306
They found some mold, so they condemned them all.

1340
01:08:01.406 --> 01:08:02.686
And so they're just sitting there.

1341
01:08:02.706 --> 01:08:03.907
I'm like, well, tear them down.

1342
01:08:03.927 --> 01:08:04.367
Right.

1343
01:08:04.748 --> 01:08:08.469
Like, well, we got to justify the money to tear it down if we're going to build something else.

1344
01:08:08.489 --> 01:08:09.210
I'm like, okay.

1345
01:08:09.450 --> 01:08:10.010
Or clean it up.

1346
01:08:10.450 --> 01:08:12.571
But it's just sitting there with – Something, yeah.

1347
01:08:12.591 --> 01:08:15.213
And it literally has the furniture inside covered in plastic.

1348
01:08:15.833 --> 01:08:18.936
It's the most, it's like going back, you ever watch MASH?

1349
01:08:19.176 --> 01:08:19.817
Yeah.

1350
01:08:19.837 --> 01:08:27.564
I feel like, and I didn't really, but it's like you go back to the 60s and you're in the middle of Vietnam or Korea.

1351
01:08:27.965 --> 01:08:28.185
Right.

1352
01:08:28.685 --> 01:08:29.546
That's what it feels like.

1353
01:08:29.826 --> 01:08:30.647
Yeah.

1354
01:08:30.767 --> 01:08:36.072
And you eat at these old, they call it the only Irish bar on communist soil.

1355
01:08:37.113 --> 01:08:39.575
They have like three restaurants.

1356
01:08:39.595 --> 01:08:40.815
You eat at them every night.

1357
01:08:40.916 --> 01:08:43.097
And these are provided by the military?

1358
01:08:43.117 --> 01:08:44.698
They're civilian contractors probably?

1359
01:08:44.778 --> 01:08:45.058
Both.

1360
01:08:45.518 --> 01:08:47.760
The civilian contractors run the restaurants.

1361
01:08:47.780 --> 01:08:48.000
Right.

1362
01:08:48.440 --> 01:08:49.501
And they work everything.

1363
01:08:49.561 --> 01:08:51.682
But yeah.

1364
01:08:51.722 --> 01:08:57.126
So you go and you sit in court all day and you see the judge, you see the lawyers, and then you go eat dinner.

1365
01:08:58.106 --> 01:09:01.388
And there's the judge and there's the lawyers all eating at the same place.

1366
01:09:01.468 --> 01:09:02.389
And is it you and...

1367
01:09:04.170 --> 01:09:06.471
50 or 100 or something, other family members?

1368
01:09:06.891 --> 01:09:08.072
So they cap it at 10.

1369
01:09:08.392 --> 01:09:10.072
Oh, 10 per shot.

1370
01:09:10.152 --> 01:09:13.614
They cap it at 10, and you're able to bring one person.

1371
01:09:14.614 --> 01:09:17.755
And so it could be five people plus another.

1372
01:09:17.775 --> 01:09:19.336
So I brought my second daughter, Ryan.

1373
01:09:19.356 --> 01:09:23.098
She was the only one available in December, and I brought my son in May.

1374
01:09:23.718 --> 01:09:25.819
They let you meet with the prosecution team.

1375
01:09:25.839 --> 01:09:28.640
They let you meet with the defense team and question whatever you want.

1376
01:09:29.540 --> 01:09:35.946
And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's lawyer is Ted Kaczynski's former defense lawyer, Gary Sowers, who's a great dude.

1377
01:09:35.986 --> 01:09:37.347
Like, we've emailed a few times.

1378
01:09:37.367 --> 01:09:40.129
Ted Kaczynski is a whole story on his own, right?

1379
01:09:40.149 --> 01:09:41.731
You get into that rabbit hole.

1380
01:09:41.751 --> 01:09:42.551
But just to sit there.

1381
01:09:42.611 --> 01:09:43.612
You guys go do your own research.

1382
01:09:43.933 --> 01:09:45.774
We become a podcast junkie like me.

1383
01:09:46.695 --> 01:09:51.359
Yeah, it's – What did Ted Kaczynski and Charles Manson have in common?

1384
01:09:52.374 --> 01:09:53.215
They both have hands?

1385
01:09:53.495 --> 01:09:56.057
No, they were both experimented on by the CIA.

1386
01:09:56.277 --> 01:09:57.038
Oh, great.

1387
01:09:57.118 --> 01:09:58.258
With drug programs.

1388
01:09:58.398 --> 01:10:06.084
So that's an interesting segue right there because lawyers on both sides would say if these men, when they were captured –

1389
01:10:07.845 --> 01:10:14.888
They were in those CIA black sites overseas, and they were so worried about another attack, they were torturing them.

1390
01:10:15.248 --> 01:10:16.069
They were waterboarding.

1391
01:10:16.369 --> 01:10:16.549
Sure.

1392
01:10:16.609 --> 01:10:21.111
And all of them say, if that didn't happen, if you just arrested them and brought them here, it would have been over.

1393
01:10:22.172 --> 01:10:23.632
But none of that's admissible.

1394
01:10:23.652 --> 01:10:27.474
Anything they admitted is not admissible because you were torturing them.

1395
01:10:27.634 --> 01:10:27.854
Sure, sure.

1396
01:10:28.194 --> 01:10:33.897
Even though they've written documents praising Allah for what they did, not admissible.

1397
01:10:33.917 --> 01:10:34.337
Right.

1398
01:10:34.477 --> 01:10:41.078
And even when they arrived on Guantanamo, they said, that's not admissible because they didn't know where they were.

1399
01:10:41.198 --> 01:10:41.879
Like, why would you?

1400
01:10:42.019 --> 01:10:43.339
Because now they feel safe.

1401
01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:44.699
They're going to speak freely.

1402
01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:50.080
So it's been 20 plus years of hearings.

1403
01:10:50.360 --> 01:10:52.201
So there's still, when was this that you went?

1404
01:10:52.941 --> 01:10:53.401
Recently.

1405
01:10:53.581 --> 01:10:54.441
Just this past?

1406
01:10:54.581 --> 01:10:54.821
Yes.

1407
01:10:55.041 --> 01:10:56.381
February and May?

1408
01:10:56.401 --> 01:10:59.502
So I went December of 25 and May of 26.

1409
01:10:59.922 --> 01:11:00.422
Oh, wow.

1410
01:11:01.022 --> 01:11:01.182
Okay.

1411
01:11:01.202 --> 01:11:02.903
They haven't even set a trial date.

1412
01:11:05.063 --> 01:11:05.403
Wow.

1413
01:11:05.463 --> 01:11:09.025
The USS Cole just set a trial date, so they just started.

1414
01:11:09.345 --> 01:11:09.745
That was 2000.

1415
01:11:09.785 --> 01:11:10.185
Wow.

1416
01:11:12.706 --> 01:11:17.148
If most of the US, like most citizens knew this, I just don't think they know.

1417
01:11:17.208 --> 01:11:17.628
I didn't know.

1418
01:11:17.808 --> 01:11:18.068
Right.

1419
01:11:18.688 --> 01:11:19.608
I thought it was all done.

1420
01:11:19.848 --> 01:11:19.989
Yeah.

1421
01:11:20.109 --> 01:11:20.409
Something.

1422
01:11:20.569 --> 01:11:23.910
And I knew like Zacharias Moussaoui, who's actually in prison in Colorado.

1423
01:11:24.050 --> 01:11:24.270
Yeah.

1424
01:11:24.350 --> 01:11:25.931
He is supposedly the 20th hijacker.

1425
01:11:25.991 --> 01:11:26.671
I knew all that.

1426
01:11:27.428 --> 01:11:29.609
And I knew Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was down in Guantanamo.

1427
01:11:29.629 --> 01:11:31.169
That's about the extent of my knowledge.

1428
01:11:32.030 --> 01:11:33.850
But it's unreal.

1429
01:11:33.930 --> 01:11:42.033
And the first time I went, they take breaks aligned with the prayer time because they're trying to honor them.

1430
01:11:44.514 --> 01:11:50.698
And so I stepped outside and it was super hot because it's Cuba and I'm in my nice clothes and I'm sweating.

1431
01:11:50.718 --> 01:11:51.799
I'm like, I'm going back inside.

1432
01:11:51.979 --> 01:11:52.979
Like, you can't go inside.

1433
01:11:52.999 --> 01:11:53.580
It's break time.

1434
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:54.901
I'm like, I'm going to go inside.

1435
01:11:54.981 --> 01:11:55.201
Right.

1436
01:11:55.441 --> 01:12:03.406
So I go inside and they are literally doing, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is out in front of the other Muslim men up and down praying to Allah.

1437
01:12:03.426 --> 01:12:08.509
I was like, I can't believe I just saw what a, what amazing thing to see.

1438
01:12:09.049 --> 01:12:10.791
People are like, we've never seen that.

1439
01:12:10.871 --> 01:12:12.752
Like we're not usually allowed to see that.

1440
01:12:12.772 --> 01:12:12.852
Hmm.

1441
01:12:13.700 --> 01:12:20.462
The second time I went, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed one time stood up, and he kind of turned back towards the back.

1442
01:12:20.482 --> 01:12:21.702
I'm like, oh, we can see him now.

1443
01:12:21.763 --> 01:12:24.123
And so I was up against the glass, which you're not supposed to do.

1444
01:12:24.143 --> 01:12:25.924
And they're like, sir, you got to move.

1445
01:12:25.964 --> 01:12:26.644
I'm like, ah.

1446
01:12:27.264 --> 01:12:29.265
So I walk away, and my sister was there.

1447
01:12:29.325 --> 01:12:36.167
And she said, I need you to know that when you walked away, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed tracked you out.

1448
01:12:36.207 --> 01:12:37.407
He watched you walk out.

1449
01:12:37.427 --> 01:12:39.248
I'm like, that's all I needed.

1450
01:12:39.688 --> 01:12:44.052
And so the next break, he stands up again, and I stood up too.

1451
01:12:44.092 --> 01:12:46.174
I'm like, I won't move for the rest of my life.

1452
01:12:46.214 --> 01:12:47.175
Let's just lock eyes.

1453
01:12:47.215 --> 01:12:48.796
And we literally locked eyes.

1454
01:12:48.936 --> 01:12:54.561
Me and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed locked eyes for 10 seconds, 15 seconds.

1455
01:12:54.901 --> 01:12:55.121
Wow.

1456
01:12:55.281 --> 01:12:58.184
And then his lawyer was kind of like, hey, we got to go, and pulled him out of there.

1457
01:12:59.205 --> 01:13:00.266
Unbelievable.

1458
01:13:00.326 --> 01:13:02.888
I'm looking at one of the most evil men on the planet.

1459
01:13:02.908 --> 01:13:03.008
Wow.

1460
01:13:05.710 --> 01:13:15.342
So they're trying to basically convict him without the benefit of his own testimony during uncertain times or whatever?

1461
01:13:15.462 --> 01:13:17.124
I think it's down to sentencing.

1462
01:13:18.045 --> 01:13:19.707
Both sides will say it's not about guilt.

1463
01:13:20.548 --> 01:13:20.989
They did it.

1464
01:13:21.950 --> 01:13:22.910
It's about sentencing.

1465
01:13:23.050 --> 01:13:23.290
Okay.

1466
01:13:23.310 --> 01:13:25.391
And the defense will say, I'm an absolutist.

1467
01:13:25.531 --> 01:13:26.171
I am not.

1468
01:13:26.471 --> 01:13:29.072
I'm anti-death penalty.

1469
01:13:29.092 --> 01:13:31.453
That's why I'm representing these men.

1470
01:13:31.593 --> 01:13:31.833
Yeah.

1471
01:13:32.213 --> 01:13:33.013
That's their stance.

1472
01:13:33.193 --> 01:13:33.393
Right.

1473
01:13:33.453 --> 01:13:35.014
And they are great dudes.

1474
01:13:35.134 --> 01:13:38.895
They talked with us for hours combined over the two trips.

1475
01:13:39.970 --> 01:13:41.291
Answered all of our questions.

1476
01:13:41.311 --> 01:13:42.352
We're very patient.

1477
01:13:42.392 --> 01:13:43.132
We're great.

1478
01:13:43.152 --> 01:13:44.673
Heard our frustrations.

1479
01:13:44.913 --> 01:13:47.575
So you believe that they know that he's the mastermind.

1480
01:13:47.595 --> 01:13:48.176
There's everything known.

1481
01:13:48.196 --> 01:13:49.236
No question.

1482
01:13:50.217 --> 01:13:51.117
That's all good.

1483
01:13:51.198 --> 01:13:53.079
My sister asked, do you think they'd do it again?

1484
01:13:53.899 --> 01:13:54.560
For sure they would.

1485
01:13:55.460 --> 01:13:58.142
And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's lawyer said, probably.

1486
01:13:58.763 --> 01:13:58.983
Yeah.

1487
01:13:59.063 --> 01:14:00.444
The other lawyer said, no.

1488
01:14:00.944 --> 01:14:01.144
Really?

1489
01:14:01.164 --> 01:14:02.685
Because they had a smaller role.

1490
01:14:02.885 --> 01:14:05.187
And when they saw what has happened to them since, they

1491
01:14:06.107 --> 01:14:07.771
But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he's like, probably.

1492
01:14:09.855 --> 01:14:13.844
And so just to experience that, it's one of the most unique.

1493
01:14:13.924 --> 01:14:14.946
I'll go back again.

1494
01:14:14.986 --> 01:14:16.790
I've offered to, I'll get on the stand.

1495
01:14:17.484 --> 01:14:19.185
Because they want you to go.

1496
01:14:19.205 --> 01:14:21.986
Well, I don't know how many people have offered to do that.

1497
01:14:22.006 --> 01:14:25.008
It could be 700 and I'll never get called.

1498
01:14:25.668 --> 01:14:31.951
Or you can write a witness testimony or something, a victim statement or something, and they'll read it in court.

1499
01:14:32.411 --> 01:14:33.712
I said, I'll do whatever you want.

1500
01:14:34.032 --> 01:14:35.853
I would love to be on stand, though.

1501
01:14:36.573 --> 01:14:37.814
And then I can look right at them.

1502
01:14:37.874 --> 01:14:40.695
But I just can't believe.

1503
01:14:41.055 --> 01:14:42.916
So I told the prosecution this.

1504
01:14:43.256 --> 01:14:44.497
It's like 25 years ago, right?

1505
01:14:44.855 --> 01:14:45.055
Yeah.

1506
01:14:45.315 --> 01:14:48.757
And so the main prosecutor got on the case in 2006.

1507
01:14:48.837 --> 01:14:49.037
Okay.

1508
01:14:49.057 --> 01:14:51.619
And he's still on it.

1509
01:14:52.299 --> 01:14:53.760
And he's telling us all this stuff.

1510
01:14:53.800 --> 01:14:55.381
And I said, I need you to understand something.

1511
01:14:56.601 --> 01:14:59.063
Everyone talks about never forget 9-11.

1512
01:15:00.690 --> 01:15:05.211
But everyone forgets 9-11 until September 4th to like the 15th.

1513
01:15:05.511 --> 01:15:07.052
Then they think about September 11th.

1514
01:15:07.132 --> 01:15:07.552
Or the 8th.

1515
01:15:07.672 --> 01:15:11.633
I said, you are the best example of never forget I've ever seen.

1516
01:15:12.753 --> 01:15:14.433
You have truly never forgotten.

1517
01:15:14.473 --> 01:15:17.114
All the people you're working with have never forgotten.

1518
01:15:17.134 --> 01:15:19.755
And you are working hard to bring these men to justice.

1519
01:15:20.035 --> 01:15:20.955
That's what I put in the book.

1520
01:15:21.635 --> 01:15:22.656
It's called Guantanamo.

1521
01:15:22.836 --> 01:15:29.100
Never forget because of those people, men and women, that have committed their lives to this.

1522
01:15:29.500 --> 01:15:31.822
And you got to – I mean, they don't live in Cuba.

1523
01:15:32.662 --> 01:15:34.584
So they got to fly all the way down there.

1524
01:15:34.644 --> 01:15:35.424
It's judges.

1525
01:15:35.504 --> 01:15:36.405
It's attorneys.

1526
01:15:36.465 --> 01:15:37.185
It's media.

1527
01:15:37.245 --> 01:15:38.066
It's family.

1528
01:15:38.446 --> 01:15:39.407
All on the same plane.

1529
01:15:39.787 --> 01:15:40.047
Right.

1530
01:15:40.087 --> 01:15:42.049
You get off and you ferry across.

1531
01:15:42.069 --> 01:15:44.110
It is the most unique thing.

1532
01:15:45.451 --> 01:15:48.693
And just talking about it, I really do want to go back.

1533
01:15:48.713 --> 01:15:48.873
Yeah.

1534
01:15:49.602 --> 01:15:59.406
I bet it has benefited you to have further closure and even informed parts of your book, having those experiences.

1535
01:15:59.946 --> 01:16:01.486
Informed parts of the book, yes.

1536
01:16:01.627 --> 01:16:02.467
Closure, no.

1537
01:16:02.487 --> 01:16:03.807
I'm not interested in closure.

1538
01:16:03.827 --> 01:16:04.528
Not until it's done?

1539
01:16:04.548 --> 01:16:05.448
I don't want closure.

1540
01:16:06.208 --> 01:16:08.249
Closure means I forget, in my mind.

1541
01:16:09.269 --> 01:16:10.130
And I don't want to forget.

1542
01:16:10.390 --> 01:16:13.071
That's one of the biggest learns I've figured out with grief.

1543
01:16:13.311 --> 01:16:14.231
Grief is not forgetting.

1544
01:16:15.191 --> 01:16:16.272
Grief is honoring.

1545
01:16:17.072 --> 01:16:19.173
And you don't have to stop, really.

1546
01:16:19.193 --> 01:16:21.174
You develop the strength to carry.

1547
01:16:21.254 --> 01:16:22.295
It's what his wife is doing.

1548
01:16:22.315 --> 01:16:28.778
Yeah, and make honoring a strength, not a failure or a fault point.

1549
01:16:28.798 --> 01:16:31.600
So most of this book is me falling on my face.

1550
01:16:31.860 --> 01:16:32.040
Yeah.

1551
01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:35.742
And I messed this up, and then I messed this up, and when I thought it was better, I messed it up.

1552
01:16:36.602 --> 01:16:43.346
And then at the end, I kind of start figuring it out, and I think that's honoring to my brother in a way that I'm –

1553
01:16:44.923 --> 01:16:47.485
you know, 25 years later, still telling his story.

1554
01:16:47.505 --> 01:16:51.148
I'm picking myself up off the couch, which is what I talk about a lot in the book.

1555
01:16:51.628 --> 01:16:53.970
And I'm trying to work hard and honor him.

1556
01:16:54.971 --> 01:16:56.492
You know, that's what I'm trying to do.

1557
01:16:56.612 --> 01:17:01.416
Well, you talked about her kids and career and stuff.

1558
01:17:01.576 --> 01:17:02.036
What an honor.

1559
01:17:02.837 --> 01:17:03.197
Unbelievable.

1560
01:17:04.438 --> 01:17:04.878
Thanks, Craig.

1561
01:17:05.259 --> 01:17:06.199
It's been a fun conversation.

1562
01:17:07.020 --> 01:17:07.500
It's been great.

1563
01:17:08.101 --> 01:17:08.861
Cheers till next time.

1564
01:17:09.282 --> 01:17:09.662
Thanks, man.

1565
01:17:10.402 --> 01:17:14.505
Hi, this is Kurt Baer, host of the Loco Experience podcast and founder of Loco Think Tank.

1566
01:17:14.986 --> 01:17:18.828
Every week, I explore intimate conversations with business founders and leaders.

1567
01:17:19.369 --> 01:17:24.433
And so I hope you'll join us this week and every week for the new episode of the Loco Experience.