The LoCo Experience EP 285 | Losing Your Big Brother on 9/11 - Craig Woodall's Journey of Grief

0:00 Today, I'm here recording from the Fort Collins Food Truck Rally, where we've got the tank parked in a row of food trucks and trailers, because this episode comes out tomorrow, and we needed to use the just-in-time machine. For this week's episode, I sat down with Craig Woodall, retired educator, speaker, coach, and author of the new book, Overcome Rebuilding Hope After Losing My Brother on September 11th. Craig retired as the principal of Rocky Mountain High School in Fort Collins, where he'd served for 12 years. with plans to initiate a leadership coaching business, and perhaps write a book about leadership as part of the plan. But his mind had other plans, and after he retired, the first priority was a book that forced its way to the front of the line.

0:41 Overcome was the result, and it's full of stories of grief and connection, and challenge and resilience, and ultimately, personal growth. It is a leadership book, but not in the common sense. And the book and Craig's focus focuses on the notion that the most important person for you to lead is yourself. Craig is a great conversationalist and a servant-hearted leader from the start. And I know you'll enjoy our time together in this episode. Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits.

1:24 So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm here today with Craig Woodall, and he is a retired educator, a speaker, a coach, and author of a new book, you should hold it up, Overcome, Rebuilding Hope After Losing My Brother on 9-11. Yep. So there's only, I suppose there's 3,000 some victims and 2.2 average family size. So 4,000 people at the most are in that kind of place of having lost a sibling. A lot more lost children, of course. 2,977 victims that day and only about 1,500 have even been identified.

2:11 There's some that still haven't been identified. Oh, like officially? Like just there wasn't enough? And they're still working on that now, which is amazing. Yeah. Wild. Huh. I guess to set the stage a little bit, Craig, you kind of went through a season of challenge and then ultimately found really a passion for and a path into education, ultimately becoming where I recognize you from was a school principal from Rotary Club visits when you guys would have students of the month or teachers of the month and stuff like that. I guess, set the stage a little bit. You're recently retired, is that right? And have you been working on this book for years and years?

2:53 So recently retired, been out a year, so completed my 30 years, all at the high school level, and it was time for me to go. I could see what made me, I think, effective in my job. I wasn't enjoying as much anymore, so it was time for me to go rather than become the kind of cynical guy waiting for retirement. Fair. Well, you're still young enough to do stuff. That's true. So that's nice. The plan was always write a leadership book. And so the last few years I'd been, you know, putting ideas in a folder and even built some chapters, and I thought I was going to do that. And then every time I'd sit down to actually write it, my mind would say, you've got another story to tell, and it's this story.

3:36 And so... I literally sat down pretty close to retirement and just fired out about 100 pages of story, like the 9-11 story and all the unique things that happened afterward, 100 pages of stories. And I didn't know if it was a book or if it was just expressive writing to get through life. And I submitted it to a company and they thought it was pretty average. And they told me so. And they said, you just tell a story. You don't tell us anything about what you were thinking, what you were feeling. And so why don't you do that? And I was like, well, to do that, you got to know about my childhood. Well, okay, write that. Well, to know that, you got to know my dad. Okay, write about that. And so it turned into this memoir type thing.

4:19 And I really had to make a decision. Is this even something I want to pursue anymore? Is this... Well, plus you were eyeing a second chapter as like a leadership coach and stuff, which is what you're doing. Right. Right. And that's why you were like trying to tell yourself, dude, write a leadership book. Right. Which would have made a lot more sense for trying to launch a leadership. Well, maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of leadership books out there. Yeah, that's true. There aren't that. There's only 3,000 plus siblings. That's really true. Yeah. Yeah, and so the company I work with, Illumify Media, was great in helping me turn just 100 pages of mess into a book. And so it is much more memoir-y than I intended. It goes through childhood.

4:59 It goes through a relationship with my parents. And it continues on, tells the 9-11 story, tells the years afterwards. And it goes into the passing of my dad, passing of my mom. It goes into all those things. And then it kind of finishes with, a few chapters on kind of just lessons I've learned and things about resilience and how to pick yourself up through difficult situations and And really, that's what's turned into more of my speaking nowadays. It's about resilience. And I still focus on the leadership end because I'm a big believer that as any human, we bring our baggage in. And so my baggage is heavy, but I've learned to carry it. Most, I mean, a whole bunch of my guests on this podcast who are business leaders predominantly, a huge number have had just terribly difficult chapters, you know, that I've not experienced anything like it.

5:48 Well, it's interesting because I write about that in the book where I say it's something about authentic people, the most genuine, the most compassionate people. When you're in the room with them, you're just like, that is, I want to listen to that person. Yeah. Almost always have tremendous adversity or loss or something in their background because they've had to decide, am I getting back up or am I staying down? Am I, how do I get the answers to life's toughest questions about purpose and impact and all those things? Sorry to smile, but the reason I'm, uh. I put a picture of myself on my 52nd birthday on the Facebooks last week, and my aunt said, Miss you, squirt. And it's probably part of why I'm a fairly intuitive, sensitive kind of person is because I was Kurt the Squirt.

6:36 I was 4'11 in 7th grade, and then 5'1 at the end of 10th grade. Wow, okay. So everybody else was growing like crazy, and I was not. Yeah. And it was a small school. All my classmates were kind of bullied significantly physically, and it didn't help that I was smarter than everybody, too, and knew it. Yeah. Anyway, I've reflected before on how much – that was probably one of the biggest seasons of adversity, not to mention, I guess, leaving banking and getting into business. That was adversity as well. Sure. But you had to develop skills. You had to develop how to talk to people, how to deal with conflict. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

7:16 So anyway, sorry to side drift there, but I think you're right, that consistent, I mean, even for kids in today's world, that ability to face a setback, be anti-fragile. And that's a struggle, and especially education, there's a big thing pushed now where trauma-informed education that if something happened in their childhood, That's just, you got to be aware of that. And I completely agree with that concept, but I don't agree with that it. That doesn't mean there's differential rules. Right. Or even just that now they're going to struggle with learning or anything for the rest of their life. Right. That's one of my favorite quotes that's in the book about, it's Carl Jung, the famous psychiatrist that says, I'm not what happened to me.

8:02 I'm what I choose to become. And I was making bad choices early. So I was choosing to become lazy. I was choosing to become overweight, choosing to become, I was pursuing comfort. And it wasn't until I realized I got to choose differently. I got to make choices that I can build strength and, you know, capacity to carry this. Now are you talking about after 9-11 for you? And again, after my dad, after my mom, like you always have the choice. Like you had a choice. Am I just going to be the victim of these bullying things? Or am I going to find some internal strength? Am I going to find some skills? Well, then I got tall. Right. That helps. That helps too. You chose that. But I think today in today's world, not just, not just teenagers or kids, but even adults, it's just easier to say it's too much.

8:46 I'm the victim. And, I just, I did that for too long and I just refuse to do it anymore. Do you have like certain kind of themes that you boil it down to on how you choose, I guess, the positivity? I don't know what that looks like. So for me, it was basically just shifting my entire morning routine instead of, you know, how late can I sleep to time it to get up, take a shower and hustle to work, which was what I used to do. And then on the weekends, lay on the couch and then overeat or drink. And so I completely shifted that. And I just got up an hour earlier and I would spend my first 10, 15 minutes in silence.

9:26 For me, it was often prayer. you know, just thoughts that are in your head. Cause they say, you know, left unchecked, your thoughts are largely negative and recurring. So if you just listen to the thoughts in your head, especially after trauma or after difficulty or after a situation like you described, they are, they just echo nonstop in your head. And so I had to find a way to start combating those. So you did positive affirmations. Felt really strange to do, but they work. It's crazy. I do yoga at least three or four times. Yeah, yoga is a great example. And yoga with Adrienne. Adrienne is so nice. And when you do a move, she's like, okay, great. You're doing great. Yeah, and then I started reading.

10:08 I would read Bible. I'd read books about faith. I'd read books about grief, books about leadership, inspirational books, just to learn what was going on in my head and the world around me. Was there a new faith moment for you in this, or was it a return to faith, kind of? I don't know if I ever lost my faith, but what was interesting with it is I didn't know how to connect grief and faith. And so I came to faith at about 15 years old and then almost immediately started experiencing loss. I lost a girl I just started dating. I lost two coaches. I lost an uncle. I lost a neighbor. Wow. And it just was one after the other.

10:50 And three of those to drunk driving. Wow. And I just had to, I didn't know how to grieve. And I was a new believer. I'm like, I don't know how to combine faith and grief. And so I separated them. And so when 9-11 happened, all that kind of repressed, I don't know how to deal with grief came back up. And I did the same thing. And I said, well, God can be over there and I'll just deal with it over here. And it wasn't until like that, that's just not working. And I'm too much, I'm too independent. I try to do too many things on my own. And so once I realize I'm going to, I just keep falling on my face alone. I have to try something different. And that's when I think I merged it more with my faith. So it wasn't necessarily return to faith as much as, you know, put your money where your mouth is.

11:35 Recognition of the actual usefulness of these principles kind of. Use the, you know. Lean on it when you're needed. Dig it. And I got amazing support out there that are willing to support that I just keep pushing away. And so I did those main two things and then, and then really committed to an exercise routine. That was the third thing I did each morning. And that, Just when I can feel the endorphins going, it just, I'm a different person. I'm more grateful. I'm more genuine. I'm more intentional. I'm more intentional. And it just, those three things in one day did nothing. In one week, hardly anything. But when you start to do them consistently and compounding impact over time, I became a completely different person. That's post-traumatic growth, right?

12:16 That they talk about that you can emerge stronger from these things. I had no idea. I don't know when I got stronger, but eventually I became even a better version of myself. And that's when I knew I'm ready to move into leadership roles and, because I can handle that now. I'm a better version of myself. I'm ready to take on those stresses and struggles, and I have a completely different take on leadership now too. How long, so were you like a teacher for much of your career and then only later moved in? Does it make sense for you, especially in your story, to just jump in the time machine and go back to Little Craig? All the way back to Little Craig? I think so. I like to ask some of our guests, what's your first memories?

12:59 Hmm. Like, do you have specific? That's a good question. I remember strawberries when I was around five, kind of, and school, first interactions there. So my dad worked for IBM, and we got moved around a lot because he kept getting promoted. And so I was born in Hawaii. Oh, wow. Okay. And my mom says I'd never wore shoes for, like, the first few years. I was just on the beach. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then we moved to Orange County when I was maybe two or three for like a year and a half. And then we moved to Austin. And I think that's maybe where my first memories are. I remember we had a pool and we had like a forest, what felt like a forest behind it. Yeah. And we would just go explore in there. Way before Austin was trendy. Yeah, exactly. We set the trend.

13:40 So I was probably four and a half, five, I guess. Okay. Those kind of memories. But I was the youngest of three, older sister, older brother. Mom was a homemaker, dad a career. Mom was an elementary teacher until kids were born and then stayed at home for a little while. We then moved from Austin to New Jersey, actually, for almost two years. My dad commuted in and out of Manhattan. You were like in mid-elementary school, third, fourth grade. No, not quite yet. Not even yet. Second, third grade. No, preschool. Oh, damn. Yeah, it was that quick. Oh, short stance. And so when we moved to San Diego, I started first grade. Wow. So I did all that moving before first grade, which was actually really nice for me. It was harder for my older siblings.

14:20 Right. Because they were older and had friends. I had, you know, what are you in preschool? You don't know how you're in kindergarten. Right. Johnny, the guy from preschool, it's three years old also. You don't have a whole lot in common. Yeah, we're not in touch anymore. You both wanted to train sometimes. Yeah. So then I, yeah, I started first grade in San Diego and, and stayed there until I was shoot 25, 26 years old. Oh, wow. Okay. Uh, went through. Talk to me about like early young, young Craig. Were you a good student? Were you, were you big always? I was tall. I was tall and thin. Okay. Uh, my brother was tall and big. Like he had, my dad is a big man. And so my dad, my brother had that build and I have my mom. So my mom was tall and thin. My mom was the shortest person in our family at 5'10".

15:02 My sister was almost 6'1". I'm 6'5 and change. My brother was 6'4". My dad's 6'3". I just thought everyone was big. But I was real thin. And so I was pretty athletic, good student, and had success in high school sports. My brother had more. He was more honored in that and... But yeah, sports were a big deal. My house was a lot about sports, which was tough on my sister because she was the artist and the musician. She didn't play music as much as she loved music. That was her jam. And so we didn't quite understand that. We just wanted to compete and go eat each other up in the backyard.

15:44 Yeah, she was all into sports. Okay. So it was tough on my sister. Yeah. Yeah, so I loved my high school experience, and I remember thinking, I could do this. I could come back and do this, and got really involved in our youth group and thought, okay, now I see how people influence me. People are pouring into my life. How can I pour into other people's lives? It was kind of the origin of that. I ended up going to UCLA, played a little bit of football, a little bit of baseball there, but didn't really pan out, got injured. What was your position in baseball? I was a pitcher. Oh. Yeah. And I was a quarterback and then moved to tight end because I got bigger and they have a ton of quarterbacks. They moved me to tight end.

16:25 I got hurt pretty quick. Yeah. Never really panned out. You're like, I like the quarterback role a lot better. I know. I tried to move back and they were like, normally we don't go that direction. It was before the tall quarterbacks was really a thing. I know. I know. I missed my time. Yeah. But then I remember getting out of school and, and my brother and dad, both my dad worked for IBM forever. And my brother worked on, you know, wall street and they both were saying, you should go into the private sector. You would crush it. You'd make so much money doing this and that. I'm like, no, I want to pour into people's lives. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a difference between, you know, making a living and making a difference. And we'd argue all the time and they would just give me a you're the young socialist in the family yeah so i ended up going in education and yeah started teaching out in san diego for a few years then we moved just uh like grade school education or what were you teaching who were you teaching everything at high school level high school social studies government u.s history civics and geography that were the main with some psychology in there too and Yeah, my wife wanted to get a degree through CSU.

17:29 Where'd you find her? Same high school. Okay, so high school sweethearts? No, no. We became good friends in college, really. And then it was like, we were just really good friends. I kind of turned into best friends. And it's like, hmm, this could probably work. Which I think is a great way to do it. Yeah, for sure. Because you have that friendship first. She's just an amazing woman. Yeah. Yeah, and so we moved out here in 98. Okay. Got a job teaching social studies and coaching football and baseball. I was doing the same. I was coaching football and baseball in San Diego as well. Kind of a lever into getting good positions if you're willing to do the extra little bit. And really, that's what I knew I wanted to do.

18:09 And you wanted to. I knew I wanted to coach. I wasn't sure I wanted to teach. I knew I wanted to coach, and I was like, well, I guess I teach then. Yeah, and that's what I was doing. That's where on 9-11 I was literally sitting in my classroom helping facilitate a department meeting with other social studies teachers and we're watching everything play out on TV. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I was teaching at the moment. It's terrible. But I'm guessing the first thing you thought when you saw the planes hit there and what was going down wasn't, oh, how's Wall Street now or anything like that. Clearly. Yeah. My first thought was it's got to be an accident.

18:49 Somebody crashed their CISN into the side of the building. That was what I thought. And then I was like, but it's the clearest day I've ever seen in New York. And by the time you could even process that, the second tower was 17 minutes later. And then you know like, oh, this is legit. This is an attack, not accidental. It's interesting though because I'm literally watching on TV. How old a guy are you about this, Twain? 28. Okay. Yeah, I'm still pretty young in a career. I'm a... Oh, gosh. How old are you now? 53. Yeah. So I'm 52. Just turned 52. So we were about the same age as always reflecting because I was early in my banking career at the bank. One of our ladies at the bank was from New York.

19:32 And she was more freaked out. For me, I was like, I'm a North Dakota farm kid. I just kind of moved to town not long ago. I'm like, I don't know. Something happened. Somebody says Natalia is sticking out of the side of the building. Yeah. And then, yeah, when that second one went down, it was like. Yeah, it was. Was your brother always there in the buildings? That was where he worked? So he worked in the South Tower on the 89th floor. So the North Tower was at first, and he called out saying, hey, that's the other tower. It's not mine. I'm fine. But he was talking to my dad about I'm seeing people jump or fall. Like, this is crazy what I'm seeing. Wow. And then when the second one hit, he called out again, this time left a voicemail just saying, okay, that was my tower.

20:14 I don't know what's going on. I got to get the heck out of here. It is chaos in here. It's really bad. And we never heard from him again after that. But we know just kind of piecing together the story that he went up. Or he tried to go down, but he couldn't get down, tried to go up, couldn't get out, came back down. He actually called 911. There's a recording of that where he was asking, do I break a window? And they're like, don't do that. And then... They're like, you know what? Maybe you should. Just go ahead and break it. What the hell? Yeah. And so we know that. And then he's like trying to break this window that's made to not be broken, basically. Knowing him, though, he probably broke it. He's a big guy, I guess. Well, and that's what I was going to say earlier. Seeing all this play out, people are like, why are we sitting in a meeting?

20:56 Like, go home. And I'm like, he's going to be fine. Like he is a, he's my brother. He's he's yeah. Bigger than life. Cause he's just my big brother, but he's a large man. He's an intense dude. He's a competitor. He's fine. Like they're going to pan down in a minute and he's going to be running out, carrying someone on his shoulder. Like just relax. Right. And then when it fell, that changed things. And I thought, that's a bigger deal. So that's when I went home and kind of took a different approach to the day. I want to take a moment here because I wolfed down this kind of fake old-fashioned, but shout-out to Matt over at 477 Distilling who gifted me a bottle of Orange Barrel bourbon.

21:39 Nice. Bourbon with orange peel, and so I used that along with some... Cherry Spindrift and... Well done. What do they call those fancy cherries? I don't know. Something. They have a special name. Marciano. Or Marciano or something fancy like that. So I thought I would give you a chance to take a sip because I'm way ahead of you. Those are good. I like it. So you are like everybody else is freaking out more than you are until the buildings start coming down. And I think some of that's probably just a defense mechanism that your brain has. And also I had learned, my brother and dad were very intense individuals. And so they were zero to a hundred right away.

22:21 And I had to learn to be calm. And so they would get, I separated. I don't know how many fights between them and other people in public. And so I've learned to, when things hit the fan, to go calm. And so that's a coping mechanism. And then I was like, he's fine. Yeah, but when it went down, I was like, I'm going home. and I positioned myself in front of the TV, and it wasn't like, oh, I need to learn what's going on. I was looking for him. I was thinking, I'll see him walk by or wheeled by in a wheelchair or a stretcher or something, and I could say, oh, I saw him. He's fine. You were watching CNN every hour. I did. I stood in front of the TV just watching for the next couple days, just thinking I'll hopefully be the one that sees him walking by, and obviously never did.

23:06 And They grounded the flights, so there was nowhere really to go. We were going to drive to San Diego, and by the time we get there, the flights will be open. So we waited for the flights and then headed out to San Diego. Okay. Your dad was there? Yeah. Both my parents, my sister was in the LA area. And so she was down there too. And just a lot of family and friends in the area. You know, it was, it was odd to say, but I missed that time because it was so, uh, I don't remember being so supported. I walked in that house and there's 30 to 40 people there every day that are there just to invest in you. And the conversations that usually are superficial got real deep.

23:48 And you'd mix in some humor and then someone would get upset and start crying. And then it was such a unique time. But I miss it because we don't have that anymore. We don't connect like that all the time. But it certainly was an interesting time to connect. You should come to Rotary Club sometime. I've been I didn't feel the same connection did you come to my club apparently you said you saw me oh okay maybe so anyway but it is not that you could have that kind of intention ever like where it's but you didn't know anything right probably for a long time you didn't hear it from him but that's the hardest thing because all those other losses i expressed earlier i was told there was a car accident and she's dead yeah i mean he's in the moment boom right now you know yeah with him we didn't officially know till the following april so he was one of the ones that was identified okay but we didn't hear till april and so we had a service for him in october and And I remember sitting there and like, are we sure?

24:56 What if he shows up? I'm like, maybe he has amnesia. Or maybe he's in Europe. I don't know. And so your brain just goes. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh. No, it's okay. And your brain goes to some crazy places. And it hit me at different times. I remember being at my parents, like maybe a week later. And I just went and sat back in his old room. And I think that was when I kind of came to peace with, he's not coming back. And then at the service was probably the next time because I'm sitting there and bagpipes are going. I'm like, what? Oh, my gosh. I'm here because my brother died? Like I'm saying bye to my brother today? I hadn't been preparing because there is that weird piece of doubt.

25:38 you know until you finally get it you know what's interesting is um the the podcast intro that I just recorded was with a couple of the principals at Vought Frye Larson architecture VFLA here in town um it's not no longer Vought Frye Larson but it's VFLA uh in part because Justin Larson uh the former principal and CEO died in a motorcycle crash back in 2019 and uh Justin was my ride motorcycles way too fast in Canyon's riding companion. Okay. Like, I had a lot of motorcycling friends, but nobody else that wanted to ride too fast all the time. Yeah.

26:19 And he ultimately paid for it in a crash in Mexico. Wow. Wow. And I've really not connected with that firm since then. And interestingly, Justin recruited one of the principals to join the firm only three days before he passed. He rejoined. And the other one, the CEO of the firm now, Chris Aronson, he was interviewing with both Justin Larson, JCL Architecture and Vought Fry Architecture, trying to move to Northern Colorado back in his earlier days of architecture. And when he came in for a second interview, the principals of both firms were there to share that they were merging.

27:03 Okay. With Justin being kind of the heir apparent. Anyway, all this to say, I've realized how... We spent a little bit of time there, but some of that just... Hearing from their side of the curtain, you know, that Justin I knew was the guy that I rode motorcycles faster than my wife would prefer with occasionally for a lot of years. And for them, it was, you know, their co-worker and really a mentor of sorts for Chris, especially in somebody that helped advance his career into leadership and... When I wonder how many stories, I don't know. Because I didn't know the people he knew in New York.

27:45 They tell us some stories. They say they think he broke the record for the most broken phones. Because when he'd get a bad, market would go down, bad decisions, something didn't pan out. He would just slam it down and break the phone and just, I need another phone. So what was his role? Was he an investment banker? He was an equities trader. Oh, a trader. Yeah. Yeah, not as relationship-driven, it's just making bets all the time, basically. Yeah, and it was perfect for him. Yeah. He was driven, he was good at that. Trying to be right all the time. He was, you know, and I have another great story. He could have been a salesman because you could never afford the phone budget if you... I think he would have struggled being a salesman. I think you're right. Every no would have been a new phone. Because he would have, like, why are you telling me no? People don't tell me no. Right.

28:25 He would have struggled, but... I ran into, gosh, I think it was the 10th anniversary. I was standing there kind of by his name at the memorial, and there was a man behind me, and he was just kind of awkwardly looking at me, and I was like, are we blocking something for you? Like, what's going on? And he's like, no, you must be Brent's brother. I'm like, yeah, how do you know that? Like, we're both big men, but we don't look that much alike, I didn't think. And he's like, you're big like him. You got to be. And my wife was a month away from retiring. And the plan was on her last day, Brent was going to carry her out on his shoulder and just walk her out like ceremonially. He's like, so when this was going down, I thought, it's fine because Brent's in there.

29:09 And Brent will get her out and Brent will carry her out. And I was like, wow. I mean, what a beautiful story. That's the same image I had, basically. And I wonder how many stories I don't know. Sure. You know, of him impacting people. Is there like a, for your brother or even those other people that lost, is there like a consolidated place to know them, know their stories like that? So the museum tries to do that. Yeah. You can go into the museum and there's, have you been in the museum? It's beautiful. Have you been to Memorial? We have, yeah. Okay, so you got to get to the museum too. I'm trying to think of when that was, but it was. They have a whole area of just the faces.

29:50 And you can go and type in a name, and it'll bring up some pictures and some stories. I have no idea who did the recording for my brother. It's not any of us. Yeah, okay. So I've wondered, like, can I... re-record that? I don't know what that is, but it's cool and you see family pictures and things. So they try. We were there only like two or three years after. Maybe four or five, but not very many years. A lot of stuff. Yeah, I don't think so. There was some stuff that you could check out. Like you could, Yeah, they had little side, almost mini-museums that popped up around the area. Yep, and there was little signages about this church that took this damage or things like that.

30:32 Yeah, Trinity Church, I think. Yeah. So yeah, you're right though. There is a, so did your brother leave behind a family as well? Or what was his? So he was, he'd been married just over a year. And in fact, the last time I spoke to him, he called saying they were expecting their first. And so that was the week before. And so he, his, he never met his daughter. She was born the following April and that was their first. And His wife is a very strong woman, very similar to him, intense, kind of strong, driven. And it's an amazing story to me. In 2003, just two years after this, she starts a foundation for Children with autism and their families.

31:17 Names it after my brother, Brent Woodall Foundation for Exceptional Children. It's still going strong in 2026. Bigger than it's ever been. Wow. Like, that is the most amazing story. Some of those silver linings of things, right? Like, that obviously would have never happened. When she said, Brent was always encouraging her, like, hey, go do this. You have the education. You have the heart for it. You've got to do it. And she's like, I've got to do it. I've got to do it to honor him. And the daughter's gone on. She graduated from Columbia. She played... volleyball there she's got a couple masters already she's getting ready to start a doctorate i mean they've okay they're amazing it's just amazing what they've been able to accomplish godspeed yeah so what what does life look like like were you like on a leave of absence from your work then for a week a month uh what's what's that look like for you You know, I think I was gone about a week.

32:12 If I'm remembering correctly, because I think it was Tuesday. I think the flights opened up maybe Friday and we flew out. And then I think it was gone the next week. I know I returned on a Friday because it was game day. And I decided, do I need to go to the football game? Should I go or not? But I just am blessed that I work with amazing people who are like, don't worry at all. What school were you at? I was at Poudre High School at the time. Poudre High. Yeah, just on the street from my house. Yeah, and they were, I'll cover your classes, I'll write lesson plans, do take the time you need. I never felt pressured to get back. But I do recall coming back, and it was a Friday, and I thought, I want to go to the game, but I feel a little, I'm going to be a distraction. But it was kind of a beautiful moment of being at the game, and people finally saw me and came over and supported me.

32:57 Because those are your people, right? Your athletes and your coaches that you spend the most time with. For sure. But then I would go to New York. I probably went to New York four times the first year, four or five times. And so I would miss some more stuff. And my school never batted an eye. They just stepped in and supported me. Yeah. How long after that did you start putting like the. I guess, point around on leadership further? Or was that like, I think that you kind of spun out a little bit career wise or maybe focus wise. So I had at that point around 2001 was considering starting like a master's in administration to move in that direction.

33:40 When this happened, I just put it all on hold. Like, I'm not going to worry about that. We stayed here for a couple more years. And I remember thinking, we're hypocrites. I'm saying it's all about family. And we're the only one with, at the time, right away, we were the only one with a grandkid. We're 1,100 miles away from everyone. We got to get home is what I thought. So we moved back to San Diego in 2003. And I got a job in administration. I was trying to get a teaching job. And the school was like, we don't have that, but we have this. And we think you'd be great. We're increasing the number of administrators every year. Well, they'd lost their dean.

34:20 And so I was doing attendance and discipline. It was not fun. An enormous school. Great school. You're like the bouncer at the trailhead. Yeah, pretty much. Ish. But I was just a fragment of myself. I was not who I was. You weren't ready to try to do that job. And so I just fizzled out and left education. And I got into commercial real estate. And then looking back, I think I was trying to replace him. I was trying to fill that void of, well, they always said I should be in the private sector. He was doing this and... The first few months, I loved it. I'm making money for other people. But this is not hard.

35:00 It's just about relationships. And I could do this all the time. And then it just... It didn't have any meaning for me. There was no purpose. And I'd forgotten my purpose of pouring into people. A big commission check doesn't really matter for you. And so I remember telling my wife, I don't think this is for me. And if I'm going to get out, we've got to go back to Colorado. Because we had two kids at the time. We wanted more. I'm like, there's no way we can do that in San Diego. It's too expensive. We're buried in our mortgage. We're in an interest-only payment and beautiful home. But... We got to go. And so came back to Colorado in 05, got back into the exact same classroom, still had stuff on the wall from when I left in the same room I was in on the morning of 9-11, which is just crazy to me.

35:46 And I really felt like that's when I got back into my stride, my purpose. Yeah, back home. Because I thought home was San Diego, but we're like, all our friends are in Colorado. We've built our own life in Colorado. And your kids besides are like, yeah, our friends are in Colorado too. Or how old were your kids? They were pretty young. But yeah, you're right. Little friends, friend groups and... Yeah, so I taught for a few more years, but then because I'd gotten that job in California in administration, and I already had a master's in education, California says, well, you can just take the test because you have a master's and you're doing the job. So I took a test and got my administrative license. So I come back to Colorado.

36:26 Well, Colorado's like, if you're smart enough for California, you're smart enough for us. I was like, I don't want to take classes. I already have a... You know, I ever got a master's and I got this. And so they said, well, take our test. I'm like, okay. So I took Colorado's test and got the administrator. So I guess I can admit now on this podcast, I've never took a principal class. Right. I never did anything. Yeah. Which is part of the motivation why later I ended up getting my doctorate in educational leadership. Because you weren't really qualified for your job when you first got it. Well, I was like, you know, in case anyone digs or, you know, that matters to some people. Yeah. You know, that I have the degrees. For sure. For sure. So I got that later, but. I taught a few more years and then at Poudre High School they had an opening and I pursued it and became an assistant principal and did you know all the AD activities everything and then 2013 got the principal job at Rocky for the last 12 years of my career.

37:24 What's that job look like like from a practical basis is it head fire put her outer is it like are you you're leading the leaders i assume for the most part and like how many people report to you when you're the principal is it is it like the city manager you know what's your relationship like with the students i have so many questions yeah it's it's an it's really interesting job i'm not gonna lie to you and it's challenging And I was always a connector with students. And when you become principal, that's the last group you connect with. And that was the hardest part for me because I didn't have – there were strong relationships with students that I was used to having.

38:04 So yeah, you put out a lot of fires. I see it as a culture builder. You're the main culture driver. You set the stage. You are intentional about things. You've got to be consistent. Are you allowing things outside of your culture, or are you steering the ship along with the culture? I had an incredible group of assistant principals and deans and support staff in the front office that – We were just all on the same page. We saw things similarly. We cared about kids the same way and education the same way. And it took a little bit of time. I walked into a school that was already great, and that's such a blessing. They'd been around for a long time and they did good things, but I'm like, we can always get better.

38:44 Let's not be complacent. And so some of my ideas about how to teach and how to treat kids frustrated some people, especially those that have been there a while. Like, no, I do it this way and it's effective. And you're right. It is effective, but we're going to build relationships and we're going to do these things. And so by the time I left, I felt like we were in a really good place as far as, School was clicking. We were out of COVID, and that was behind us. We were building relationships. We were caring for kids. Every day is different. One day, you're a counselor. The next day, you're running a business. The next day, you're pushing back on parents.

39:25 The next day, you're pushing back on the district. Then, you're dealing with your own staff. Then, it's... start over again. Now it's a staff meeting. Now it's a game. Every day is new. And to be completely honest, I have no idea how I did that job for 12 years and was a parent, was a husband, was a friend. Because now... You're kind of a public figure too, right? True. Everywhere you go. All these sports games and you can't miss too many. You can't walk into Target anymore. Right. So it was... I have such respect for the people that are still in that field because they're in the thick of it. And I meet with some of them and they're in it.

40:06 They are locked in and I care about kids and I'm working hard and it's a beautiful thing. And I just don't have it anymore. You know, I knew it was time. This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank. Loco Think Tank provides peer collaboration for business owners. We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with. Our model features gift-back-minded business veterans in the role of Loco facilitators, and we're always looking for abundance-minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, local community, or to feature on this podcast. Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free.

40:46 Just mention the Loco Experience podcast on your application. To learn more, visit our website at locothinktank.com. That's L-O-C-O thinktank.com. And so you make the decision to retire with this kind of book basically bursting out of you now that we've kind of come back around to where the conversation started. Had you, like how long did you think about retirement? And then do you think about commercial real estate again or other things? Like what do I do next chapter? Yeah, I'd thought about it for the last few years, and I knew I wanted to hit that 30-year mark, and then I had the opportunity to hit that, and then… That's like the full retirement for the teacher's pension kind of thing.

41:33 Yeah, 75%, and was able to do the additional year, and so I knew it was coming in. Oh, so you get like 75% of your income? I took a little bit less because it goes for the rest of my wife's life. Okay. Instead of just mine. But still, that's pretty nice. I don't know what principles make, but not a bad paycheck. Yeah, we're not living large. We're hurting a little bit to try to balance, but... comparatively for the rest of our lives, I'll take it. Well, it turns out possibly you could make some money doing other things, like selling books or keynote speeches or who knows what. And I did think about real estate again. Yeah. And I didn't want to be at everyone else's beck and call, which is what real estate felt like to me.

42:17 Like, hey, I want to go see this house right now. You've got to come show me – That's why I thought commercial again, but I don't know anyone in that industry out here. Where San Diego, I knew everyone in the industry. It was easier. Now you're just the old guy trying to get into real estate. Yeah, like everyone else. Like everybody else, yeah. But yeah, I thought about that. I thought about just getting a job at Home Depot and just calling it good. But I'm going to see where this book goes and see if it can turn into some speaking or coaching opportunities. Yeah. So do you have a target client? Are you looking for, on the coaching side, are you looking for misdirected youth to engage with you? Are you looking for CEOs? Are you looking for would-be high school principals to engage with you?

43:00 I would say in the immediacy, it's been principals. Okay. Or aspiring principals. Yeah. Aspiring leaders in the education space. For now. What I see in the future is expanding that. Yeah. To me, leadership is leadership. And I would often say, look, I was never in the business world except for that one year. Well, I did run an $11 million business for 12 years with 200 employees. I mean, there's a lot of people around here in the business world that can't say that. True. So I would like to expand. I think I have a lot to offer people just about leadership and resilience and connection into the private sector some.

43:45 But I know I will always keep a foot in the education, principal, aspiring leader world just because – My wife says it all the time. You can't just give that up. What you've learned over the years, you've got to use it. Well, and the leveraged impact, I think, is where the rubber meets the road there. If you can help an aspiring leader that... creates that many more leaders or self-leaders or resilient students and stuff. There's a lot of impact there. And probably it's a good place to cultivate at least some of your pursuits. Do schools pay speakers to come and talk to them or things?

44:28 So districts will pay speakers to come in to speak at like a district event. Yeah. But there's not a lot of money for – coaching or any of those kind of things. Yeah, that kind of thing. So the people I'm working with now, I'm just doing it because I know them. Yeah. And I just reached out and I think I can help people. And I also wanted to see, am I any good at it? Yeah, right. Can I even offer, can I offer anyone anything? Yeah, yeah. And I think I can. And so I don't quite know yet how to turn it into a business. Well, honestly, for what it's worth, we started kind of here with like, if you want to be a leadership coach, you should write a book about leadership because then you'll get a lot more clients. I think that this book that you've described and some of these stories and journeys that you've had just both in self-reflection and along the journey of your career has That's to me probably, you know, you talked about how real leaders start with Authentism.

45:25 Yeah. Well, that was a memoir as your card. How many pages did you end up? It's like 230, 240. So more than doubled from that first blush. That's true. Most of those stories come through. Yeah. And I've got a hundred more that aren't in it. And I kept telling him, Oh, you know, I just remembered. She's like, I think you're good. You can keep some of those. And you know, I was, I was talking to a guy the other day on a podcast and we had a very similar conversation and he said, tell me how you don't think this is a leadership book. And I was like, well, it's, it's not about leadership. It's about it. He's like, yeah, it kind of is like you're saying it like, it's about being an authentic human.

46:06 I got a whole chapter on finding my purpose again and, um, applying for principal jobs, knowing how I wanted to do it now because it completely shifted me from being a pretty self-centered leader and it's all about me into, no, it's all about the people you serve. I don't think I'd have gotten there. Even your motivations as a coach and stuff, that kind of shifted from I want to be the guy that leads the best team to I want to be the guy that gets the best out of this team. Exactly. And I talk about there's two kinds of leaders. You're either a here-I-am leader or a there-you-are. I was a here I am guy. That's how I was raised. My brother and dad are here I am people. You own the room when you walk in. It's your room. It's your team.

46:46 It's your classroom. So I was the sage on the stage. Listen to me. I have the wisdom. And you listen to me as the coach. All this stuff happened. I realized everyone's carrying something. Everyone's got something going on deeper than that. Focus on them, not on yourself. And it completely changed my coaching, my teaching, my leadership. 180. Well, it seems like a solid transition to our Purpose Driven Questions segment. Thanks to Purpose Driven Wealth for sponsoring. Thank you to Purpose Driven Wealth of Thriven for sponsoring our Purpose Driven Questions segment. At Purpose Driven Wealth, they believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose. Their mission is to help guide clients using a values-driven, stewardship-based approach focused on provision, contentment, and enjoyment.

47:33 With more than a century of experience, Thriven helps individuals and families navigate life and business transitions and prepare for the future while creating space to live generously and give back in meaningful ways. To learn more about Purpose Driven Wealth, please call 970-330-7411 for a complimentary initial consultation. And now, on to the questions. I've got a handful of questions I'd like to... I guess we've brushed on faith a little bit, but I'd love to hear a little bit more of an expansion on kind of what faith means to you in today's world, how it kind of has imparted wisdom to your journey even in some of these junctures.

48:19 I appreciate that. So I was raised Catholic, and what that meant was we went on Christmas and Easter, maybe. And it was an argument to do that. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't, by the grace of God... You didn't really know what the good news was. No. I had, you know, Catholicism and relationships don't really link. And so I was lucky that we had a guy... move in with a catholic background who wanted to run more of a young life type youth group that's actually who i just stayed with when i was out in san diego cool still uh friends with him and he just basically talked about relationship with god and relationship with jesus i'm like wait what now relationship like that doesn't come up on christmas yeah like I hear about confession and penances and stuff.

49:07 Right, Hail Marys and whatnot. And so it really opened my eyes to there's more to this life than what I thought there was. It was a long journey, and now it's foundational to me and my family. And I'm actually lucky enough I'm going to preach at our church at Timberline this weekend. I told him, I said, I'm happy to do an interview or a video, and I'm like, I'll take the weekend. I'm like, okay. But I'm basically going to talk about how Jesus can meet you in your struggles. And you can come to him in the middle of those... adverse situations where you feel alone like i always did and uh and just how i learned to to have that just it's really a relationship driven faith relationship driven and and it really just it's a it's a support for me and my family big time Talk to me about where your sense of purpose was developed.

50:08 Is there a relationship in your past? It doesn't sound like it was necessarily your father or your brother that were encouraging that kind of servant-hearted leadership and teaching kind of evolution. But who or what inspired that? A couple of people. I remember a coach, a basketball coach, telling us at the end of the season, even when you leave, I'll always be your coach. And I thought, whoa, that's deep. Like you want to pour into me even when I'm gone from here? Like what? And I remember this guy, I mentioned the youth group guy, Bob, he, he, you know, taught me a lot about God, but also relationships. And, and, and those two people probably had a pretty instrumental, helped me shift my purpose and my focus away from what I was raised to be, which is make money and, make a living and buy the big house and the cars.

51:02 But you somehow drifted into teaching even despite that. Right, because... Because that was one of their influence. Yeah, because I started seeing, no, I want to pour into people the same way those people poured into me. And that's really what shifted my purpose, I think, in that direction was... was knowing people poured into me that didn't have to. And now I know the influence I can have on people. Cause I was one of those guys that everyone thought was fine. I had friends. I was pretty good athlete, good student. You're good. You're fine. Like I'm not good. Right. Like every, if you want to talk about at risk youth, it's called a teenager. Every single teenager is at risk, but no one would ask me until I started building these relationships with some mentors who would pour into me.

51:43 I'm like, okay, that's what I want to do. I want to be that person. for teenagers as well. And so that's really where it started. Dig it. Can we talk about your family a little bit? Sure. You said at one point we had two kids and we wanted more. Did you get more? We did. Good. We got four kids. They are 25 down to 16. I sometimes do the one-word description challenge if you would like to share them, maybe in descending order, a name and a one-word description with a little color to follow. Wow. Okay. I guess I'll start with our oldest, Jordan.

52:23 I will say driven. Hey, Jordan. Ryan is my oldest daughter. And then my second daughter is Ryan. I will say, I'm going to use two words, the glue. Okay. She's our connector. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. My son is Nathan. He's now 20 up at Boise State, I would say. Okay. joy he just finds the positive in everything love it he always has and i don't and so i don't know right um avery is our youngest 16 i would say um she's She's almost the hardest for me to come up with one word.

53:10 I would say unique in that she has so many different passion areas that don't necessarily connect. She loves missions trips. She loves serving at our church. She loves sports. She loves – most of our kids landed in one area. Eclectic. I'm going to change her word to eclectic. I like it. I like it. Just because she has so many strengths and so many skills. Yeah. In so many different areas. A renaissance young woman of sorts. Right, and I can't – I'm not going to choose for it. I'm going to start making wine. Yeah. You're not even 21. Well, that's my second time I did that during COVID. I'm going to start a business. What? And she just started – yeah, it's crazy what kids do. Awesome.

53:50 So you've got like three more years or so of the youngest around or whatever. Who knows? She's a junior. These days. But do you guys have a different plan for after the nest is empty? And what's your wife's name, by the way? Renee. Hi, Renee. Renee is a psychologist here in town, and she's been doing that for years. She's very good at it, and she has... started to transition into like a retirement coaching model. She's building like retirement coaching classes for people and going to build intensives. And my perfect world would be she has the flexibility to do that from anywhere. Yeah. You know, where there's a lot of restrictions around therapists.

54:33 They don't want you, you know, your license in a state for a reason. And so with the coaching thing, maybe that'll open that up. I was just in San Diego for a few days. I can't get enough of that place. My dream is I would be able to ride in a golf cart to the beach. I do not have enough money for that. And so that probably will never happen. And so it'll be. Well, not from San Diego, but there's places. I don't know where else I'd want to do it. I've been to Florida. Yeah. I don't need to go back. Yeah. Okay. We're just San Diego people. We go to Mexico a lot. And I love it. And every time I'm down there. Cabo is pretty sweet. I was just in Cabo. You can ride a golf cart to the beach in a pretty affordable-ish place.

55:16 I've thought, we've thought of Costa Rica. Yeah, Costa Rica, Panama, that kind of stuff. We've thought about all those things. So we'll see. I think what probably is more realistic is down the road, we will downsize, stay here in northern Colorado because that's where our connections are. And then that will free us up to, you know, go. do an Airbnb in Costa Rica for two weeks and go to San Diego for a little while. Yeah. Go where our kids, my wife is wherever our kids end up is where we're going. Right. Well, or we end up somewhere they want to visit. Even better. So as long as you pick, right. Yeah. We'll probably do both those things. Yeah. Dig it. I think it's a good time to get set up for the loco experience.

55:57 So this is our crazy ginger hot sauce from Matador Mexican Grill. You can get this retail from those guys. Good burritos. We get it custom ordered here. It's a peach bell pepper carrot base with an absurd amount of habanero and a sprinkle of ghost and some fresh garlic and fresh ginger. So you're wanting me to eat one of those? Yeah. Two if you want. You probably will. Here, I can pass the door closer. Now some tasting notes for our listeners when you're ready.

56:47 So for someone that grew up in San Diego, and I feel like probably three-quarters of my meals have been Mexican food. Okay. I'm not a big salsa guy. Okay. But that's really good. It's got a little kick to it. Yep. But not too much. It keeps crawling a little bit after. Even for someone like me. Awesome. Like that's... I'll be using that for sure. My youngest will love it. Because she puts ourselves on everything. Avery? Avery. Hi, Avery. Hope you like it. Hope you like this conversation with your dad. I don't hope you forgive him for whatever he tells us in this. Oh, wait. We're not ready for the local experience yet. So tell us a small story while I go get us the WhizCal shots.

57:30 Okay. Because that has to precede the local experience sharing. All right. Do you want to give me a little direction on this story? Just any story from the book, perhaps. You said you've got 100 more 9-11 stories in addition to the 100 that we didn't share here. But I left my WhizCal over there, and I don't want to pause the podcast. All right. So I've got a great story for you. Okay. My dad and I, at the first anniversary, were given these posters. And they were posters of the faces of everyone that died on 9-11 that made a photo mosaic of towers. And so they put them in these poster tubes for us. My dad and I are both thinking we don't want to fly home with all these new regulations of these huge poster tubes.

58:15 So first anniversary, we go, we do all this stuff. It's the afternoon. He's like, let's go mail these things. So we step out of our hotel, and the bellman instantly puts his hands right on my dad's chest and pushes my dad in and says, You cannot be out here right now. Now, if you know anything about my dad, you don't do that to my dad. That's the best way to... So it is on. He is yelling and screaming, and I grab both of them and separate them. And I said, Dad, look, there is no one out here. It's a ghost town. We're in the middle of Manhattan. It is a ghost town. What happened?

58:56 Honestly, I'm not going to lie to you. I thought something like a terrorist attack happened again. Like, why is no one out here? Instantly around the corner comes these black suburbans. And they jump out with their machine guns, and they are on my dad and I. Because the bellman took off. He went inside. So the only two people on the entire block are my dad and I with these poster tubes. And so they are out there on the ground with their machine guns pointed at us. And I didn't know what to do. Do I put my hands up? Do I drop the poster tube? Do I go on the ground? Do I... I just froze. I just stood there like, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. And like the third suburban pulls around and Hamid Karzai, who was the newly placed leader of Afghanistan, was staying in the hotel across the street.

59:40 Okay. And so they had to escort him in. He just addressed the UN and they brought him in. So they walk him in, jump back into the thing, pull guns off us and take off. I was like, let's go mail these things and be done. It was the craziest thing. We walked in silence for about two minutes, and then we both just started laughing. Right. Like, this has been the most intense day. We heard my brother or his son's name read off as a victim of a terrorist attack, and then a couple hours later, a machine gun pulled on us in the middle of Manhattan. Luckily, that was the worst of it, and then we got them mailed off.

1:00:20 Well, good. And then my poster got ruined in a house flood years later. Bummer. The only experience I have that contrasts at all with that is... My brother-in-law was on a nuclear sub for a while and was stationed in Silverton. And when their sub was leaving port one time, we went to wherever the subs crossed through to leave the protected port over there. And my father-in-law was like, hey, check it out. There's this gate that leads all the way down to right by the shore that somebody apparently left unlocked. And so we're on this like...

1:01:02 basically a dock, like at the edge of the thing, in a place that clearly had signs that said, don't go here, but the gate was open and no one was there. And so we're all like... waving from the shore as this sub goes through, and then we get noticed, and they roll up with, like, three official cars and dudes with guns, and they're like, WTF, are you doing here? That was, like, 2004 or something, so people were pretty excited about stuff. Yeah, this was September 11, 2002. I mean, it was at the height of all that for us, but... Anyway. We survived. I digress. Yeah. And it's now time, and I sprinkled some more chips there if you feel like you want some more.

1:01:43 Go get Avery. First, I want to say thanks to Seed and Spirit Distilling. I was over there today and picked up some fresh WizCal. Thank you, guys. And so we like to go into our local experience by sampling a little shooter of WizCal before we go. Thanks for being here. Also tasty notes for the WizCal. You said you were more of a tequila guy than a Mezcal guy. Yeah, Mezcal's a little smokier for me. Yeah. Than tequila. That's not really your thing. Not as much, but... Fair. Yeah. I like that with the whiskey mixed in more than straight Mezcal. It actually makes a really good old-fashioned, too.

1:02:24 Oh. Yeah. Okay. Maybe next time we'll do that. Yeah, or in a couple minutes. Perhaps. Perhaps. Um, let's, uh, let's get into the, the local experience story. That, that one, that last story wasn't even your crazy experience. No. Not the craziest one. Uh, sounds like there's more than a couple of crazies, but Cuba, something Guantanamo Bay. Right. So there's an organization that flies down 9-11 families to sit in the courtrooms to watch the proceedings of, of the. prisoners that are held on Guantanamo Bay for 9-11. I've been able to go down twice and sit in the courtroom. These are like cool conspirators of it.

1:03:04 Well, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the main one that's down there. And he thought of everything. He brought it all to Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden just said, yes, go for it. I got the money. Gotcha. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed himself has beheaded people. I mean, he is. He's a real bad guy. And to be honest, I can't even remember the names of some of the other ones right now that are down there. But him, I remember. And I remember when he was captured, I remember all that. And so. To be able to be down there, to be in the same courtroom, behind glass, but be in the same courtroom with them. What an honor, kind of. That's actually pretty, like, was anybody that was impacted like that, like, able to kind of try to get a ticket for this or whatever? So it's only family members.

1:03:45 Yeah. But I can bring someone. Like, you can bring a support person. Or powerless or something. And they keep it really small. And the USS Cole, if you remember, that was 2000, the ship. That's also going on. Hmm. Hmm. And so when I first went, most of the people were for the USS Cole. There were two people that served on the Cole and a dad who lost his daughter on the Cole. They were down to sit in that courtroom. And the second time, it was all 9-11 families that had gone down. I get sweaty from hot sauce sometimes. That's what's happening to me right now. That's all right. It's not tears. Before we get to the story itself, people hear Guantanamo Bay and stuff, but I don't know if anybody really has barely an understanding from the layman's terms.

1:04:30 What are we talking about here? It's like the end of Cuba almost, and the U.S. owns it, I guess, or we took it a long time ago, so it's ours now. How big a base is it? Is it comparable to like the – I've been to San Diego to the naval base kind of thing there. Is it a naval facility mostly, first and foremost? But they can house a ton of prisoners there, so it must not be that. So it's southeast Cuba. Okay. And we got it in the Spanish-American War, 1898. And we've held it since. It's been contentious since. And they actually rent it from Cuba, and they claim Cuba has only cashed one check over the years, and that person probably did not go well for them because they just refused to.

1:05:16 It's a pretty big base. It's more like Camp Pendleton in San Diego that sprawls over a lot of places so they can do training. It's the most unique place because... There are dilapidated buildings right there, condemned. You can't walk in it next to the most modern technology you'll ever see right next to each other. And then like the courtrooms are not – it looks like a high school annex building. Yeah. Like, what is happening here? And then it is a very unique experience. It is pretty big. So you're flying in and out on a military transport, basically. No, you don't.

1:05:56 And the last thing I'll say, though, about the base is it's got all, what is it called when it's all four of them? Joint base or joint task force or something like that. So there's Marines in one area, there's Army in another area, so they're all there mixed in. Got it. And they all have different roles. So you fly in and out of Andrews Air Force Base. So you've got to get to D.C., and then they never know what company is going to supply the plane, but it's a normal civilian plane. It's not a military plane. But it's not going to Havana. Yeah. No. And you take an Uber. It goes straight to Guantanamo.

1:06:37 It lands, and then it picks up the group that was there the week before, and it flies back, and it sits on Andrews, or it goes and does whatever, and then it comes back and picks us up the next week. Right. Okay, thanks for setting that stage for me a little bit. Because I think maybe I'm the ignorant one, but it's like a kind of a mysterious place. I didn't know anything about it. Right. You hear about it. I heard the name a thousand times. The prison, it's not very big. And they've had different versions of it. They said, oh, it used to be over there, but it was really run down. And it looks like if you were to take a local middle school or a local elementary school, And just put four to five layers of barbed wire fence at 15, 20 feet high.

1:07:22 That's what it looks like. It does not look like what you'd think of a prison. Yeah. And we can't tour it. We can't go in. But they do drive you past it. They're like, we're not supposed to stop. So they go real slow. And then you can see it. I was like, whoa, that's crazy. And... But, yeah, you're in the courtroom, and there they go. They walk in, and there's Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right there. Yeah. It's a pretty rundown. No, I shouldn't say rundown as much as they built a bunch of housing for people. It's utilitarian. But then it got... They found some mold, so they condemned them all. And so they're just sitting there.

1:08:02 I'm like, well, tear them down. Right. Like, well, we got to justify the money to tear it down if we're going to build something else. I'm like, okay. Or clean it up. But it's just sitting there with – Something, yeah. And it literally has the furniture inside covered in plastic. It's the most, it's like going back, you ever watch MASH? Yeah. I feel like, and I didn't really, but it's like you go back to the 60s and you're in the middle of Vietnam or Korea. Right. That's what it feels like. Yeah. And you eat at these old, they call it the only Irish bar on communist soil. They have like three restaurants. You eat at them every night. And these are provided by the military?

1:08:43 They're civilian contractors probably? Both. The civilian contractors run the restaurants. Right. And they work everything. But yeah. So you go and you sit in court all day and you see the judge, you see the lawyers, and then you go eat dinner. And there's the judge and there's the lawyers all eating at the same place. And is it you and... 50 or 100 or something, other family members? So they cap it at 10. Oh, 10 per shot. They cap it at 10, and you're able to bring one person. And so it could be five people plus another. So I brought my second daughter, Ryan. She was the only one available in December, and I brought my son in May.

1:09:23 They let you meet with the prosecution team. They let you meet with the defense team and question whatever you want. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's lawyer is Ted Kaczynski's former defense lawyer, Gary Sowers, who's a great dude. Like, we've emailed a few times. Ted Kaczynski is a whole story on his own, right? You get into that rabbit hole. But just to sit there. You guys go do your own research. We become a podcast junkie like me. Yeah, it's – What did Ted Kaczynski and Charles Manson have in common? They both have hands? No, they were both experimented on by the CIA. Oh, great. With drug programs. So that's an interesting segue right there because lawyers on both sides would say if these men, when they were captured – They were in those CIA black sites overseas, and they were so worried about another attack, they were torturing them.

1:10:15 They were waterboarding. Sure. And all of them say, if that didn't happen, if you just arrested them and brought them here, it would have been over. But none of that's admissible. Anything they admitted is not admissible because you were torturing them. Sure, sure. Even though they've written documents praising Allah for what they did, not admissible. Right. And even when they arrived on Guantanamo, they said, that's not admissible because they didn't know where they were. Like, why would you? Because now they feel safe. They're going to speak freely. So it's been 20 plus years of hearings. So there's still, when was this that you went? Recently. Just this past? Yes. February and May?

1:10:56 So I went December of 25 and May of 26. Oh, wow. Okay. They haven't even set a trial date. Wow. The USS Cole just set a trial date, so they just started. That was 2000. Wow. If most of the US, like most citizens knew this, I just don't think they know. I didn't know. Right. I thought it was all done. Yeah. Something. And I knew like Zacharias Moussaoui, who's actually in prison in Colorado. Yeah. He is supposedly the 20th hijacker. I knew all that. And I knew Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was down in Guantanamo. That's about the extent of my knowledge. But it's unreal. And the first time I went, they take breaks aligned with the prayer time because they're trying to honor them.

1:11:44 And so I stepped outside and it was super hot because it's Cuba and I'm in my nice clothes and I'm sweating. I'm like, I'm going back inside. Like, you can't go inside. It's break time. I'm like, I'm going to go inside. Right. So I go inside and they are literally doing, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is out in front of the other Muslim men up and down praying to Allah. I was like, I can't believe I just saw what a, what amazing thing to see. People are like, we've never seen that. Like we're not usually allowed to see that. Hmm. The second time I went, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed one time stood up, and he kind of turned back towards the back. I'm like, oh, we can see him now. And so I was up against the glass, which you're not supposed to do. And they're like, sir, you got to move.

1:12:25 I'm like, ah. So I walk away, and my sister was there. And she said, I need you to know that when you walked away, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed tracked you out. He watched you walk out. I'm like, that's all I needed. And so the next break, he stands up again, and I stood up too. I'm like, I won't move for the rest of my life. Let's just lock eyes. And we literally locked eyes. Me and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed locked eyes for 10 seconds, 15 seconds. Wow. And then his lawyer was kind of like, hey, we got to go, and pulled him out of there. Unbelievable. I'm looking at one of the most evil men on the planet. Wow. So they're trying to basically convict him without the benefit of his own testimony during uncertain times or whatever?

1:13:15 I think it's down to sentencing. Both sides will say it's not about guilt. They did it. It's about sentencing. Okay. And the defense will say, I'm an absolutist. I am not. I'm anti-death penalty. That's why I'm representing these men. Yeah. That's their stance. Right. And they are great dudes. They talked with us for hours combined over the two trips. Answered all of our questions. We're very patient. We're great. Heard our frustrations. So you believe that they know that he's the mastermind. There's everything known. No question. That's all good. My sister asked, do you think they'd do it again? For sure they would. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's lawyer said, probably.

1:13:58 Yeah. The other lawyer said, no. Really? Because they had a smaller role. And when they saw what has happened to them since, they But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he's like, probably. And so just to experience that, it's one of the most unique. I'll go back again. I've offered to, I'll get on the stand. Because they want you to go. Well, I don't know how many people have offered to do that. It could be 700 and I'll never get called. Or you can write a witness testimony or something, a victim statement or something, and they'll read it in court. I said, I'll do whatever you want. I would love to be on stand, though. And then I can look right at them. But I just can't believe.

1:14:41 So I told the prosecution this. It's like 25 years ago, right? Yeah. And so the main prosecutor got on the case in 2006. Okay. And he's still on it. And he's telling us all this stuff. And I said, I need you to understand something. Everyone talks about never forget 9-11. But everyone forgets 9-11 until September 4th to like the 15th. Then they think about September 11th. Or the 8th. I said, you are the best example of never forget I've ever seen. You have truly never forgotten. All the people you're working with have never forgotten. And you are working hard to bring these men to justice. That's what I put in the book.

1:15:21 It's called Guantanamo. Never forget because of those people, men and women, that have committed their lives to this. And you got to – I mean, they don't live in Cuba. So they got to fly all the way down there. It's judges. It's attorneys. It's media. It's family. All on the same plane. Right. You get off and you ferry across. It is the most unique thing. And just talking about it, I really do want to go back. Yeah. I bet it has benefited you to have further closure and even informed parts of your book, having those experiences. Informed parts of the book, yes. Closure, no.

1:16:02 I'm not interested in closure. Not until it's done? I don't want closure. Closure means I forget, in my mind. And I don't want to forget. That's one of the biggest learns I've figured out with grief. Grief is not forgetting. Grief is honoring. And you don't have to stop, really. You develop the strength to carry. It's what his wife is doing. Yeah, and make honoring a strength, not a failure or a fault point. So most of this book is me falling on my face. Yeah. And I messed this up, and then I messed this up, and when I thought it was better, I messed it up. And then at the end, I kind of start figuring it out, and I think that's honoring to my brother in a way that I'm – you know, 25 years later, still telling his story.

1:16:47 I'm picking myself up off the couch, which is what I talk about a lot in the book. And I'm trying to work hard and honor him. You know, that's what I'm trying to do. Well, you talked about her kids and career and stuff. What an honor. Unbelievable. Thanks, Craig. It's been a fun conversation. It's been great. Cheers till next time. Thanks, man. Hi, this is Kurt Baer, host of the Loco Experience podcast and founder of Loco Think Tank. Every week, I explore intimate conversations with business founders and leaders. And so I hope you'll join us this week and every week for the new episode of the Loco Experience.