LoCo Experience Ep 278| Kelly Sage, President & CEO of the Longmont Economic Development Partnership

I had a ton of fun in today's podcast, kind of a get-to-know-truly, somebody you've known for 25 years and appreciated, Kelly Sage, formerly known as Kelly Jones, formerly known as Kelly Peters when we first met circa 2001. Kelly worked in economic development since I first moved to Fort Collins in 1999 and was instrumental in the launch of both the Rocky Mountain Innosphere and the Warehouse Business Accelerator and she's served on more boards than I can count on both hands, and she's currently the president and CEO of the Longmont Economic Development Partnership. Kelly and I share so many characteristics that I teased during our conversation that we were siblings separated by birth. We sang the Star-Spangled Banner together in this one, a cappella, and our personal values are much like mirrors. But our journeys couldn't be much more different. Her hippie mom left the family in Waterloo, Iowa when Kelly was 12, and she effectively became the responsible adult to her two siblings. Her dad was a rock and roll star locally and traveled and opened for big names. And he ran a successful home supply business until it wasn't and it went bankrupt and they moved to a trailer park. A few years later, Kelly moved in with her mostly estranged mother to northern Colorado and began her pursuit of building economic prosperity and security. through a philosophy she learned early in her career, economic gardening. Too many stories to share in this intro, but you have my promise that you will very much enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Kelly Sage. Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories. And through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guest today is Kelly Sajay. Kelly Sage of the Longmont Economic Development Partnership. Yes, nice to be here. Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast. This is awesome. Thank you. Let's set the stage a little bit with, like, what is the Economic Development Partnership in Longmont? What's that look like? Is it part of the city? Is it part of the county? Who's the funders? Is it friends with the chamber? Is it enemies with the chamber? Yeah, no, great question because it's very unique compared to everywhere else in northern Colorado. The Longmont Economic Development Partnership has had several names since 1981, and it's always been mostly funded by the city. So the city gives $400,000 a year. A nice chunk of change to help us. Pays your salary and a few expenses. Yeah, I wish. Yeah, we have three staff, so we're huge. Anyway, it's a nonprofit and traditional economic development-based, primary employment-focused, not on Main Street. More of the primary. Could be two people in a garage building satellites. Sure. More of the... Seagate is in our town. But bringing money in from outside of this region. That's right. So traditional economic development attraction retention. We have about 60 private funders, a lot of banks, and a lot of attorneys and service providers and primary employers that pay in and believe in the purpose. And the city stays with it and funds really are staff fees. And then the private funds everything else. And then are you guys, do you have like, we can give you tax breaks and stuff like that. Do you have a good toolkit in that regard as far as attracting companies? I would say. Or it's usually in Colorado, it's kind of a medium. Yeah, we're not so granted incentives. Yeah, yeah, look how beautiful it is. Right. Kind of works. Smart workforce. Yeah. It's the same old tagline, you really know economic development, so it's going to be easy to explain this. It's interesting because this is one of the last cities that hasn't taken economic development completely inside. So they only have a couple of staff working on urban revitalization, which is great, but they rely on us to bring incentive projects through the city and through their processes. So it is, there's a benefit to being outside of the city in that. We can run a little more lean. Our procurement is lean. If we want to hire you guys to do something, we can do that without going through a huge RFP. I don't know what you would hire a local thing for. I don't know, but we may. You could pay me to start a local thing. I know, but we could talk about that. We'd be subsidized. We need it in Longmont. But I guess the thing I don't like about being outside of the city is that I can't walk down the hall now and talk to the city manager when I need him immediately. Yeah. Like I used to in these other cities or the attorneys, if I need a little legal advice, you know, it's, it's emailing and calling. And so there's a, there's a little bit of a three person staff can only be so smart. Yeah. Even if each of you is really smart. Right. Right. So we're lean and mean compared to other budgets up in Northern Colorado, but Longmont's fun. It's popular and it's been really fun to explore it. Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's a heartland, right? That agrarian background is kind of a bit of a superpower in that kind of country. I'm a farm kid, you know. I am too. I'm from Iowa. So I always have to cheer for that kind of thing, and you grow things, right? That's right. And that kind of mentality and ethos still kind of carries through in Longmont in a lot of ways. I'll tell a quick story, and I don't know if I'm running us down the wrong direction right away. But at one time, Northern Colorado was ranked really high for the amount of startups we were seeing. And I can't remember who tracks that. But somehow, Northern Colorado, Fort Collins, Loveland area really ranked high quite a few years. And they probably still do because of this ethos you're talking about. But Northern Denver, I think it was Broomfield who called me down because I was in the Innisfere at the time. And they called me down to say, what's in the water up there? Like, why is it so unique and why are we lacking that same amount of startups? And I spent so much time on that presentation because I went, oh, we're close to all my traditional speeches to sell a company here. We're close to all the universities. We have this agricultural background. Well, they do too. Well, they're closer to some universities outside of St. Hugh. Brookfield doesn't have a town, though. Right. Like there isn't like a downtown, there isn't like a center. That's true. That is part of it, I think. I don't know. Well, but what I came down to, and it might have been Westminster, but basically it was like Denver to me, North Denver asking about Northern Colorado's unique sauce, sweet sauce. I went through everything that I sell and they had everything, the same things. And the only thing I could come up with was, and I wrote an article way back when on the Goldilocks. We're not too big. We're not too small. You bump into each other in coffee shops. You might meet the president's children of CSU at their soccer game. You're connected much quicker than you can be in the metropolis of Denver. So I don't know. That's my story. So I don't know that Longmont has more of an agrarian background than anywhere up here. Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I think Fort Collins never really had that much agriculture. It was Greeley. And then it kind of looped down through Weld County to Longmont and that's kind of where it stopped a little bit. Yes. Horse Farms and stuff. I love riding motorcycle through there. Yeah, it's a great city. What was that point you just closed on? Oh, it was the Goldilocks size. Yeah, I believe that up here. That's actually my theory with Loco Think Tank is that, so we're a local community think tank, and there's that size between like 50,000 people and 250,000 people that have a true community feel. Yes. It's like a special place to be and to live where you can... I have goosebumps. Have enough, you know, there's good bands and good restaurants. And you can, you know, there's four high schools and you can be a fan of one of them, but really not all of them or whatever. And it just has that community feel. And once it grows beyond 300,000, you know, once you get to Colorado Springs... It's like five different cities that are adjacent to each other. That's right. And you go 15 minutes and it's a different cultural. I mean, you don't really know the vibe that you're getting. And Northern Colorado still has it. You're in Fort Collins. When you're in Longmont, you're in Longmont. Yeah. That's right. So it's been fun to explore. And there's an advantage in that for sure. For sure. I agree. And especially as, you know, people trying to do great things, right? That's what primary employers are. And Longmont's got such a great heritage of like aerospace as well as manufacturing and kind of more tech oriented stuff, right? Yes. It's interesting because I always, being in Loveland a long time next to Fort Collins, I worked in Fort Collins as well. Sure. But we're sort of the stepsister to the big city. Right, right. And where the university is and a lot of the action is. We're the cool kids here, yeah. And I always said in the last 10 years, Loveland's starting to be cool. Yeah. And I don't mean any shade on Loveland and its history, but it's just grown enough where we have money to invest in the downtown. Yeah, yeah. Longmont is similar with its sister, Boulder. They're right next to each other. Right. I showed up in Longmont. Yeah, Boulder was cool 20 years ago, almost to the point of where she's kind of old now. Yeah. Sorry, I'm in Boulder, but in Longmont we say don't Boulderize our Longmont. Kind of, yeah. Well, and we don't need those kind of rents to keep a startup from being able to launch or a primary employer thinking about moving over from another state. That's right. It's an advantage and a disadvantage. People know Boulder, so we can use that. And people know Fort Collins, we could use that for Loveland. But we have some certain unique pieces that are an advantage. Truly cost is one of them. Let's talk a little bit about the current... zone of economic development stuff? Like what's the news in the market? There was a season when I was pretty involved in those conversations as a banker and stuff, but like, is it harder than it was? Is it easier? Is Colorado becoming more or less competitive? I think it's harder. It's harder because, um, economic developers, I don't know who to blame, but it is for a lot of reasons. We were ranked so much lower than, We were always one of the top three states in almost everything. I mean, cost and doing business and popularity. I mean, just all of those. Well, we had a very free workforce and things like that, right? Yeah. I just had somebody from the state of Colorado book time with me from the treasurer's office or some, I don't forget, I could look at my calendar, to discuss the new requirements of the Colorado mandated employee savings accounts for something, something. And they need my help to get the word out. Oh, OK. It wasn't coming after you to regulate you. No, not yet. OK. But even just that they want to connect with people that are connected to the business community so that we don't have to fine you or something because of all this new regulation we're putting in place. Oh, scary spot to be. And it's like most small businesses that are doing the best they can, they'd love to offer retirement accounts and stuff. Don't find them. No. I'm not going to help you find them. No, no, no. I should probably just tell them that. I'm not a watering hole. Really, no one comes to me. No one does. Nobody trusts me. By the way, what's the best way to avoid getting caught for not complying with your new regulations, I still have bosses that are related to the state, so I have to be good. I know you do. When I retire, I'll come back. Okay. We'll tell the stories. We'll tell some of the real stories. I have no idea of your politics, honestly. We've never talked about it. I always keep it really. You won't know until I retire. You're a ghost. Yeah, I have to be. I have to be. But you probably can tell as you talk to me more. I just ordered some. So I subbed at B&I for Marzanne from Sportabout. And she's been doing my logo stuff for years. Nice, yeah. And I subbed for her a couple months ago. And she said, I want to make you a hat, a local Think Tank hat. And I was like, I don't know what I want. Yeah. But this morning I saw her and I ordered bright red visors with the Loco in white and then the Think Tank in blue. Cool. So I have like a red, white, and blue visor. So you're American. But at first glance, people will be like, is that a Trump hat? Right, that's true. Maybe I hate that guy. Oh, wait, no, it's just some random logo. You're 50-50 basically. So you're good one way, you're bad the other. It's okay to be red, and blue. And I'm not. I voted for Kanye. Of course you did. That's awesome. I stand by it. But where are we going? Best practices. Best practices. What's the scene? You said it's pretty hard. Okay. Well, and I don't like to sound victimized, wimpy or victim, because economic development is such a great crime. It's so fun. You get to schmooze with people and get paid. I've had so much fun doing this job my whole career. But it's harder because everything's digital now. So the site consultants and all the businesses that used to call us, we were the concierge to the community or the region. And we were the experts. Now they can just Google Earth and be like... That's what I want. I like that. I can look for my own real estate. I can look for my own workforce stats. I can find everything we used to do as a service. And that coupled with, which is fine. I mean, it just narrows the- What value do you add? Well, right. The value is still, we have pocket listings. We know all the community we have. But it's become an incentive call instead of a, research call and sell in the ability to sell because we're all good at selling. It kind of goes down to, we've already chosen two sites and you're one of 20 cities and what do you have for me? And so it's become harder in that. I'm not a huge fan of incentives, never have been. And yet we have to play that game and they do, they fill a gap and they play a purpose if you vet them well. Sure. That's how it's changed. Well, and all jobs are not created equal to, right? Like there's, It's fascinating. I have engaged recently with a young man, well, younger than me. Jonathan Irvin is his name. And he's got a new company, Rocketsoft. And it's an AI kind of company, AI software kind of operations. But in his past company, which was like a promotional products with licenses like NFL things and colleges. And it was a lot of print on demand and ship direct. And he grew the company a ton. while cutting his workforce in half. And he was talking about that with me, how it was sometimes uncomfortable talking with people, because a lot of times, like government offices, even small businesses kind of compare each other by the size of their staffs. Not so bad as government offices where it's like, ooh, let's see how big I can grow my team. That's true. Grow, grow, grow. We need more, we need more. Usually in small businesses, it's so I can grow the business. Right. But he was actually shrinking his team while he was growing his business. Kind of somewhere at like 30% to 50% a year on both counts. Because of lack of graphic designers and role. Yeah, well, automations and things. He just built things to kick the human error out of things. And this was, no, this was before. It was like in the early automation stage. It was where he got into the whole thing. Wow. Theme of that. He's ahead of the game. He's been living in that ahead of the game. Yeah. That's part of my interest in unfolding. I hate to not have people have jobs. I know. But stuff's got to happen too, right? Efficiencies will happen. I mean, I totally, I completely understand and see it coming. It's a cotton gin, hopefully. I hope so. And I always believe in the human spirit to find a way to find jobs for everybody and fulfill that. I'm not doomsday-ish about it. In fact, last week or the week before I was in Chicago. Most people have boring jobs. Yeah, maybe we work three days a week and finally, you know, and make as much money and who knows. Well, that would be even better, yeah. That's where I'm headed. But I went to Automate, the largest robotic automation conference. It was fascinating in Chicago. And I don't typically spend a lot of money on that, because I'm around there going, oh, we're from northern Colorado. Hey, you want to move your business? And they're just looking for customers, basically. But I got to meet all the robots from Taiwan and all over. It blew my mind. It was fantastic, actually. I loved every bit of it. I've had a couple of small experiences where I was like, oh, that's crazy. at a conference like that it had to be i was exhausted because i wanted to meet everybody and there's 15 000 vendors there it was you know chicago's huge right well and is that a success as an economic developer to bring in a big oh robot warehouse that loads a lot of trucks every day but only has 14 i want the r&d i want the people r&d there you go robots yes that's what i want engineers and yeah the people building them that's what i want in our area yeah Yeah, I think it makes sense. It has to be. We have to have efficient use of space, efficient use of water. Yep, yep. So the environment's challenging. Are you friendly? How do you play nice or happy with the other communities? I do. I do. It's been a... I've been... I'm almost 30 years. You've been a little around here and there, right? In a sphere. Should we... Soon we'll jump in the time machine and we'll go way back. Okay. Because that will actually lay out your journey a lot more. I'd love to do that. Precision. Yeah. But sometimes people say you jump jobs too much. But I love it now because I have all these experiences. Right. So I can tell that story. But yes, we play well. In fact, I was a part of the group way back when... The second to the burrito group. So if you knew Jacob and Josh and all the Fort Collins crew really jump-started it. But to try to get Weld and Larimer and all the economic developers and city managers who were involved in bringing business and retaining business. to come together. So like 31 communities all coming together. So David May was part of that original group. And so I jumped in there and we helped build NOCO Ready Regional Economic Development. So now it's a going concern. In fact, they meet tomorrow in Fort Collins and they come together and it's kind of morphed to best practices. from the old guard to the smaller communities and how to develop programs and not make the same mistakes. You're not going to show them your hot list necessarily, but still have some community, have some camaraderie. Help, yeah, because... Help each other. We've always, for years and years and years, tried to get I-25 to stop being the divide between Weld and Lerm. We need both of them to sell it. Well, and if somebody doesn't quite choose Longmont, but they choose Greeley... Absolutely awesome. That's actually a win for Northern Colorado. Yes. Right? That's a great win because there's probably a... There was going to be whatever, X number of people commuting even from Longmont to go staff this new Greeley operation. Yeah. It used to be 35%, 33, 33, 33 from Fort Collins, Loveland, Greeley. We just swapped people. Is that right? They just all drive around all over? It was all one happy family. Oh, we called it Triangle Train. Well, they say golden triangle. What's the triangle train? Well, if that's the triangle, we might as well have a train that just goes that little triangle. I love it. We can let Denver screw around with bustangs and all that. We can just have the triangle train. Let's do it. Let's do it. You just invented something. There's a Simpsons episode. A monorail! Woo! I'm seeing South Park, but you went right to Simpsons. You're more G-rated. Well, there's like this schmoozy sales guy that sells the whole town on it. If we have a monorail here, then everybody will come to Springfield. Well, you're sounding a lot like a developer that I know that sells the triangle already. It'll stop at Scascadia for sure. You know who I'm talking about. Got a dream. I think... Just because it'll add so much more context to this conversation, we're going to zoom not just back to your start in economic development, but like, oh, I've been asking a few people lately. First, memories. Oh, gosh. What was the youngest age from which you can pluck a few? Oh, I got it. Okay. But for me, I had a lot of trauma in my childhood, which is okay, because I talk very openly about it. No fear to talk about it. I think my memories are later because of some of that. And I can talk about it very openly. But my first memory is a flood. I'm from northern Iowa and Waterloo, Iowa. And I remember a huge flood. And I remember the basement was all the way filled up. And we're musicians in our family. So all of our albums, historic albums, and all this music was down there floating. And I probably was three. Three or four. Yeah. And I remember my mom saying, my dad's got to go down and shut off the breakers and stuff so we don't get electrocuted. Right. And I remember watching, we all stood at the top of the stairs and watching dad go down into the water and just thinking he would. So it was sad and scary at the time, but that's my first memory. Wow. It's interesting. The reason I was reflecting was because when I was like five, my parents' house burned down. So a trauma, sort of a scary thing. Our furnace spun a bearing and it put into my dad's, he reloaded gun shells or whatever. So it sparked this huge fire. They had to get out in like moments and left all the stuff behind kind of. But you all, everybody's okay. Everybody made it out. Yep. And I have like vivid memories though of my mom carrying my baby sister and stuff. So yeah. Anyway, kinship over. Over trauma. Young trauma. Yeah. I don't really think about it very much. No, I don't think it affected me. Although who knows? Yeah. I think at that age you just kind of. Roll with it. Like, oh, that happened. Move on. Yeah. And then we lived in a trailer house on the same property. Exactly. Which sucked kind of, but whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Similar story. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And where were you? Like set the stage. What was your family up to? You're in what part of Iowa? How many siblings? So I have three siblings. I'm the oldest. And let's see, mom and dad had me at 21. So too young probably. Well, I don't know if it's too young, too young for them knowing them. Dad is a workaholic, alcoholic, recovered now. Thank goodness. But then, workaholic, alcoholic, entrepreneur, always owned businesses, and he was a rock and roller. He was actually in a rock band from just a music savant. And so I either went to bed to rock and roll or to classical piano every single night of my life. So we're all musicians. But my mom left when our house overnight when I was 12. So we have a 12, a 10-year-old, and an 8-year-old in the house. And dad just comes home and says, mom's not coming back. So that's also a very early, awful memory. Was there like years of fighting and stuff along the way? Always a party. I mean, I'm a 60s hippie, raised by 60s hippies. What town was this, did you say? Oh, yeah. So Waterloo, Iowa. Waterloo. So that's like John Deere factories and stuff. Yes, that's exactly. So pretty big town-ish. Not really that big. 70, 60, 70,000 back then. So big for Iowa. Yeah. But not a huge city. No. And exactly. John Deere Engineering was our primary employer that... And wrap food packing. So a little bit of Greeley, right, with Swift and a little bit of the engineer of HP are similar. Anyway, so left overnight. And so we all just went, okay. And my dad's, you know, Iowa farmer kid. Did you become mom? I was mom. You became mom at 12. Yes. Were you already like a high achiever, grade A student, all that kind of stuff? Yeah, disgusting. Athlete, too? Cheerleader, gymnast, kind of individual weird sports like that. But I wish I could have done more different sports. Well, it wasn't really as popular to be a girl that did stuff in those days. True, I always said that. It was like there was kind of some social pressure probably to be just a cheerleader or just a gymnast or whatever, not the volleyball team. That's a little too... to rough forever. Yeah, right. Very true. And I played violin. And so I was very invested in the orchestra and that, so I was in the popular crowd and I was in the nerds, you know, I loved it. Anyway, growing up, so became mom, um, didn't know any better, although we all probably our organs are terrible because I raised my family on SpaghettiOs and things I could cook at 12 and dad was never around. So the total definition of latchkey kids. Wow. Detasseled early. Remember detasseling corn? Yeah, my wife talks about that. She grew up in Iowa, too. Yes. So every summer, raised money to help my kids, my kids' sister and brother pay for school fees. So I really became the parent. Wow. And dad just worked by day as an entrepreneur in his business. Yeah. And then went rock and roll. It's like a home supply store, a big home supply store. So think Lowe's or Ace back then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he was successful until he wasn't. And then overnight, he went bankrupt in a business. I don't remember what phase of economics it was. But then we went overnight to a trailer court. So we lived in a trailer court. Wow. And you're now 16 or something? I think I was 15. Wow. And then dad remarried and moved to Phoenix and took my brother and sister. And I said, I'm going to stay back by myself. When you're how old? I was 17. Okay. Okay. Sorry, this isn't a laughing matter. No, it's... It explains a lot about the powerful woman you've become, frankly. Oh, thank you. I just didn't know any different, you know? I was like, okay, well, we go to the next thing. Right. Well, and it's true, moving to Florida with dad and his stupid new girlfriend. Oh, I mean wife already. Right. She was the drummer in the band and very beautiful at that... But, you know, her son... Sounds like your dad is a character. Very charismatic, obviously. He's very involved in my life. He's been sober for a while, it sounds like. He's been sober for 30 years. Awesome. Good for him. And we have a great... He lives in Loveland. Shout him out by name if you'd like to. Luke Colheed. Hey, Luke. And he sings in the church, and he's very involved. He's still very musical. Redemption is possible. Redemption is possible. Yes, yes it is, yes it is. He's been a wonderful force in my life for business and for overcoming. Oh, your instincts for business, I'm sure, were sharpened. You're an observer kind of person. Yes, I called him for every major move I made, yeah. So moving on, I'm trying to think. I don't know where you, what you, there's a lot going on. So you're this 17-year-old, do you live in the trailer? No, so I moved in with a friend, family. And dad and everybody moved off. My mom had already moved. So you're an informal foster kid, basically. I guess they count us as couch surfers in high school. I was in the homeless count in that high school, which I didn't know that at the time. So it wasn't a family, you were just another family. I was in the family, but they treated me very different. I mean, I was the kid who lived in a room up there. You were a semi-unwelcome. Yes. Yes, you can stay here, but don't. Don't use too much toilet paper. I was actually told that. You're using, you know, whatever. I mean, I was careful. So I worked the third shift at a happy shift. So I'd go to high school, you know, participate, 4.0 student, whatever. I did good. Play the violin. Played the violin, did all these great things. And then I would go home to this house and then go at 9 p.m. to 3 a.m. and work at a diner. Wow. Downtown in a sketchy part of town, and people would pull me on their laps and go, are you on the menu? I mean, all these things that I had to grow up really fast and say, I'm going to slap your ass if you pull me on your lap. Right. Well, and before you were 15, your dad was... At least from an outside world, like this hugely successful business person and stuff. Rock band. I mean, he played with the Hollies and the Yardbirds. Crosby stills in Nash. He was a starter band. I mean, he was big 60s national band. From the outside world's perspective, he was this amazing guy. Yeah. And then it all came crumbling around. And then you came out of that, Ash. Yeah. Pretty wild. Yeah. So I left the day. So I worked that third shift all every weekend through high school somehow and got good grades. And then the day after graduation, I got in my little Subaru, which was fitting. And I said, I'm going to either move back to Colorado or my mom or to Colorado where my mom was, Loveland, Colorado. Or I'm going to go to Phoenix where my dad was because I wanted to be back by family, my siblings. And I chose Loveland just like I didn't know. Had you been? Yeah, I had been. I'd ski and been. My aunt had an aunt in Fort Collins. Yeah. And I was like, well, what the heck? So I get in my car, drive out here with $1,000, walk up to CSU and go, and no parent help. I'm like, can I get in here? I literally walked up to financial aid and go, can I get into CSU? I have pretty good grades. I had like a 4.0. Did you take the SAT or ACT? Yeah, I did the ACT. I had good grades. They were like, okay, of course you can come here and here's some Pell Grant information. And they go, do you have any hobbies or expertise? I go, I play the violin. Walked over to the music hall in the Oval and I saw signs that said scholarships tomorrow, literally like that next day. And somehow I got in, performed and got a scholarship. So I limped my way through CSU with three jobs and... That's so cool. Yeah. Well, and you felt, so I moved here on a Friday night. I went down to old Chicago's. Yeah. I had a job that started Monday morning, but no place to live and no friends. And I met up with a group that was celebrating somebody's birthday. And they're like, oh, you just moved here? You've got to come pub crawl with us for Katie's birthday or whatever. They just welcomed you. Yeah, they just welcomed me. It's just like you just walk up to the window and you're like, can I go to college here? Yeah. And anyway, I'm just noticing a couple of parallels in our stories. That feeling of huge welcoming and appreciation. Saved my life, really. Yeah, that's for sure. What would you have done? I don't know. I don't know. Were you living with your mom, I guess? I moved back in with my mom. I hadn't seen my mom much since I was 12. Right. And so we're strangers. Did you talk on the phone with her? Yeah, a little bit. Wrote letters back then. But not very close. So we bonded. Long distance calling was expensive back then. Yeah, I didn't really... I think I saw her four times in that amount of time. Wow. So basically I was a roommate there until I could then get fine friends and move back out. Wow. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's just... So contrast, like we've got these parallels, but also, you know, my family was very just stable. Oh, yeah. No stability in my house. Yeah. Like the town where my dad grew up is basically the same town as it is now. Oh. And that existence in North Dakota was, you know, just a stable kind of thing. Yeah. Lovely. It's a lovely memory, but not. It's tainted for a little, you know. Yeah, for sure. So you go to study what? Business. Yeah. I think that sounds good. Just because Dad was a business guy, kind of. What do I know? Did you pick up the fiddle, too, so you could actually play with bands here locally? I never did. I still want to do that if they'll take this old lady. Really? I'm going to fiddle, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know some people I could introduce you to. Okay. Yeah, I know some fiddle bands that need somebody once in a while. Okay, yeah. I'm down. Like, obviously, it's a far different kind of play, right? People think the violin is different than the fiddle. No, it's the same instrument. You know that. So it's the same instrument. Right. But it's very different style. But could you read fiddle music and just play it? I could. If you show me music. Give me a little practice. Yeah, I need to practice. It's been a while. You can do what the music says. But I was raised, I taught Suzuki violin. I was always a classical violinist. I have to have music. The bad thing about just doing a fiddle from early is that you could play without any music. You could just do it. Right. But I have to have music. Right, right. And then I can play. So if you're a fiddle band operator out there and you need somebody, look up Kelly. She's on LinkedIn. Kelly Sajay. Sajay. And I prefer to sing, even over violin now. Okay. That's awesome. I didn't know you did that. Yeah. I also enjoy singing. Okay. We'll do it after this. Do you have like a 4,000 song inventory that if... If you give me the words, I'll sing anything. Yeah. Well, a lot of them you can kind of sing along if you get a little bit of words here and there. Absolutely. Yeah. We are twins. Yes. You probably are cousin. We kind of look alike. Okay. So you're studying business. You're still getting good grades. Yeah. You're working on the side, too. You said you had three jobs in college, too? Yeah. I did all the books for the clubs at CSU. Okay. So I worked at the student center, did all the record keeping. So I had a natural finance tendency. So I did that. And then I was a Seagram's girl on the side. So I went to the liquor stores and grocery stores and pushed Seagram's back then. And I didn't have to wear scantily. I wasn't scantily dressed. You didn't have to. Well, I did a little bit. No, I didn't. Anyway, but I did that. They just bought more. They bought more when I was there. Let's see. What was my third job? Oh, I waited tables all the way through. All the way through college. Any favorite places that you waited tables? In Loveland, the Summit. The Summit. It was a fancy crab and steak place in the day. Oh, okay. Yeah. Where was that? It's up 34 on the way to the canyon, very west of town. It's now like a dental office. I never experienced the Summit. You're too young. It was old. I mean, I was there. I got here in 99. This was 86 to 90-ish, 92, 91. I'm 58. Oh, dang, girl. I thought I was probably just a little older than you. No, I'm old. Well, that's not too old, but it's kind of... I feel like I'm 29. You're approaching middle age. I'm definitely approaching middle age. I'm definitely very immature for my age, and I'm glad you are as well, despite your years of quasi-government service. Yes. They took a lot of age. They aged me quite well. Well, you've resisted well. Thanks. Tell me about, like, what's next? Mm-hmm. Like, was school fun, easy? You know, what was that college experience for you? You were couch surfing until you could get, or you were with your mom couch surfing? And then what was that move out? What was that? Oh, just easy as soon as I could. I mean, I. Like three months of saving money and I'm out of here. Yeah. I mean, remember, mom left us at 12. So I have this heartburn, even though I've forgiven her. But how do you do that? How do you leave three little kids? sweet kids you know i never would have do that so she had her story will it's another video you know telling her story so hard hardest life of any could be a book i'm sorry so i understood stood now i understand but then i was like okay thank you for helping me but i'll be moving on Yeah. So it wasn't just your dad's fault that she left. She also had her own challenges. Oh, she had so, I mean, again, her story is horrendous. The worst I've ever heard in my 58 years of anyone's story. Oh my goodness. So I had two broken people a little bit that were beautiful, wonderful people, but weren't capable of being parenting. They just weren't. You have a lot of grace for them in that, it seems. I do. Which is cool. Like it's not always easy to come around to that. No, I always had it. I always forgave really easily, unlike my brother and sister. That's a whole different story, too. So, no, I think that's a best practice I could impart. Like, don't hold on to shit. Yeah, leave the past in the pasture is what I like to say. That's right. Let it go. So, anyway. You have a first job to come around to. Yes. What were you aiming at? Where did you land? I landed. I have a great first interview out of CSU story where it was a military man, but he was hiring. I remember him telling me he's from the military, and he acted like it. But he hired me. They set you up at a business school with interviews. And so I interviewed back then, it would have been 90, a lot of oil and gas business companies hiring at a CSU. But I interviewed with a telecom business because it was also after Ma Bell broke up. So they split all these thousands of little companies. It's so hard for me to relate to somebody a little older than me. I had you stuck a few, anyway. Yeah, no, no, it's probably a decade earlier. So about everything. Well, I'm 51. Okay, okay. So, you know, five years, six years, whatever. But a little different, right? Like, like. Totally. Yeah. As soon as I got into my first job, I had an email and I had, you know, a cell phone shortly thereafter or whatever. But you actually entered the workforce before all that stuff. Right. Yeah. Before all of it. Yeah. In fact. Yeah. Anyway. I digress. So no, interviewed with this guy and he said, what do you know about sales? And he was really hard on me and. I'm like, well, I'm coming out of college, so I don't have a lot of background in sales, but who are you to say I can't do something? And I got up and walked out. And they hired me. That's awesome. And he said it was a test. Yeah. The person who wouldn't stand for that abuse was the one I wanted to hire. That's pretty cool. And so somehow I had more confidence then than I do now, but I just got up and went, you know, screw you, dude. I'm going to do the right things. I know. I probably had lived more life than him, even though he's a military man. Right, right. But that's what he was looking for. He was trying to abuse people to the point of not breaking. I'll show you. Right. And so then he wanted me for sales. He was trying to build a chip on people's shoulders. Yeah. So he's like, this girl can deal with any kind of rejection in sales. Yeah. I like it. So what was that like? Sold telecom. So you were going door to door or telephoning people and saying, hey, do you want to switch this up? Thousands of calls for every CEO would finally listen to me, and I'd go to his place and her place or whoever and sell them telecom services. It was crazy. hated that job. It was kind of the Wild Wild West though, right? Because Ma Bell had been split up. Yeah, all the entrepreneurs in the world were looking for a cheaper system, finally. And so since then, I did that for about 10 years. And I went down to Phoenix and Every few years, someone would come in and go, well, MCI bought us now. Remember MCI WorldCom? So everybody we'd walk through, and 10 of you have made it into our job, and everybody else has got canned. And so now you've made the cut, and I did that like three times, and they started to oligopoly again. They started becoming big, and all the little guys got bought up. Right, trying to turn back into MobL. Yeah, so did that for a while and then met my husband down in Phoenix and we moved up to, I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to go back to CSU, I wanted to get my master's. I didn't think I need a PhD to teach college, but I did. So I met you as a Peters. Yes, this was my original husband, Scott Peters. Okay, so that wasn't even your maiden name. No. I didn't realize, okay. I have a very Danish maiden name, Kjeldie, Kolheid. Kjeldie? K-J-O-L-W-O-N-W-O-N-W-O-N-W-O-N. I just wrote, no, the Danish is different than the Dutch. Yes. I just wrote about the Dutch Revolution. Reflections on Liberty was my blog last month. Oh, I'll have to read it. And my great-grandma was a Swanson. Okay. See, we are probably related somewhere up there. Well, you're Danes, we're Dutch, so you've got the cooler country. We just had those lowland marshes with windmills. Well, that's true. You're a little more, we're more Viking-like. You're Vikings, yeah. Like, kill everybody. Right, exactly. We're like the, hey, we just want to be Calvinist and be left alone. That's awesome. But we did build a Dutch East India Company, which was kind of a banger of a business back in the day. That is a banger of a business. A little more organized than the Danes. Yeah, I know. Pillaging. I digress. So, okay, I didn't realize you had a first, yeah. So husband, yeah. A husband. Married Scott here in Colorado and had two beautiful kids. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. And so this is circa me now. What does that mean? Where, what, what are we, 2000? Oh, so that was 96. Okay. So, yeah. Yep. And then did you come, or what was the next stop for you from a career standpoint? Yeah, so I had a great job leaving Phoenix, the optical shop of Aspen in Asian, well, it's an American company, but all the really high-end optics. In Aspen? They have a shop in Aspen. Okay. Okay. So that was my way. I was the head of marketing for this firm and doing the trade shows in New York and L.A. Gotcha. I left telecom. Yeah, that was your way of transitioning into another kind of a ladybanger kind of a career path. Such a fun job. But anyway, but then I'm like, I'm going to be a teacher. I've always wanted to do this. I'm going back to Colorado, and I'm going to get my master's at CSU. And I just had this vision. And so I went to Aspen because I could get a job with this company selling glasses. And just to get my year residency to be cheaper to go back for my master's. Then, as I discovered, you really need a PhD to teach in college. college. Okay. That's my naivety of just charging ahead without really doing money research. Just moved to Aspen. And lived in Aspen for a while, and Scott cooked for Don Johnson, the crazy movie star at the time. Yeah. Like as a private chef? Private chef. Oh, wow. So we had some great stories from that time of life. So tell me about Scott a little bit, because... I don't know that I ever met him. Yeah. No, not a healthy relationship, but had a lot of fun. Two great kids. Reflections of your father in some respects or something. Yeah, you do that, don't you? Yeah, you marry your father. Very charismatic, had some mental issues. So not a healthy 18 years, but stuck it out until I realized it wasn't going to be great. But we had some good times, and we really do have two amazing children out of that. But I finally found my way out of that unhealthiness. And that's when I... Probably about the time you and I met the first time. And then we were starting Inosphere. Yeah. So that brings us right up to that. Yeah, because I didn't realize you were a divorcee. I just thought that I realized you were a single woman at the time. Yes. Yeah. And so, anyway, I digress. Yes. I didn't realize you weren't Kelly Peters. No, I was Kelly Peters at the beginning of it. Of our relationship, but not at the beginning of all of it. You were Keltheis? What did you say? My maiden name? Yeah. Kolheed. Kolheed. Kolheed. Kjog. Kolheed. Oh. Yes, I love that name, but it's long gone. So you stumbled, like you, like, tell me about that transition. You said you needed more than a master's to get there. Did you just kind of stumble into the inner sphere and you're like, I want to be a part of this? Oh, there's a lot of story between then and then. Yeah, I jumped in. So you're Aspen. No, I was asking you about Don Johnson and your husband and stuff. There's so many stories. Right. That's why we go two hours, because otherwise it's just too short. Yeah, everybody's life has to be so packed. Kind of, right? Great stories. Well, and living in Aspen, it's got to be so cool. It was a spectacular place, very expensive. I think then we paid $900 for a basement apartment in El Jebel. So for those who know that whole canyon area, we couldn't afford Aspen, of course. I mean, I'm working selling eyeglasses now from my big corporate job down to that. And I think Scott at first had a job at Planet Hollywood waiting tables so we could just get our residency in. And we lived in the basement of this guy who was a chef for whatever the big, heavy private club is there for all the wealthy stars. I would have no idea. So we're in this guy's basement. And my husband's is, we weren't married then, but he's the, like a very fine chef. He had always been, he had country clubs and great training. And he's like, why don't you just try out Don Johnson and Melanie Griffith just divorced and they need a chef. Melanie's taking the chef. So he's like, I'll go try out. He got it. So now he's the private chef for a major movie star, and this is early 90s. And you're like there, and he's inviting friends over regularly and stuff. What was nice about that job is caviar would make its way home or Dom Perignon. Oh, so you didn't get invited to the parties. Oh, I did. Yes, there's one prominent Fourth of July party where Dakota Johnson, who's now famous, was like 10 or whatever. It's like Don's son, I guess. Kurt, ask your wife. I'm bad at the trivia. She's famous now. Most trivia I'm really good at. Not that. Well, she's famous. So she was sitting on my lap. High Dakota, sorry. No slight intended. She's beautiful. Anyway, back then she was a kid. And who's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Oh, I do know that one. This is my age showing. He was there. Yep. Crazy. Cool guy. With like a 10-foot bong and Dakota Johnson and all these. I mean, he was divorced, Don Johnson. So there was a lot of crazy porn stars from LA being flown in. I have great stories from this. So if you weren't like a quasi-government official. Yes. No, you already told me actually before the show that you wouldn't smoke marijuana anyway. No, I don't smoke pot. But if we had other party drugs here, you might. Maybe. Yeah, I could tell you some stories. About back in those days. But I knew Don Johnson, and he was a very fine, nice individual. Yeah. was he yeah he was he was nice we met a lot of really cool stars and fun times i was actually thinking this is terrible i hate to confess it jill if you watch this please forgive me but i was thinking if i'm don johnson and i'm recently divorced like i wouldn't hire a dude to be my chef oh true totally hire a hot chick um no he flew in on the plane the butler would call and say scott Anyway. We've got eight women coming in from the guest house. He had no shortage of chicks anyway. I guess that makes sense. No, there was a different person on his own. I've always had just 23 years married or whatever. You'd think that way. If I had one woman, that was in abundance. Yes. So I've never had access to her. No, he was a playboy for sure at that time. So you're living this Aspen world. Yeah. What's chapter next? Next chapter, I came up to Fort Collins and had a hard time finding a job. It was 95. And why? I think that I don't remember the climate. Well, think about it. I've only had, I guess by then I had a pretty good resume. I was still with Scott. And I realized I wasn't going to get my PhD. I didn't, I want to make money. I was like, I'm the breadwinner. I'm going to make some money and start my career. And so I got on with the Marriott and quickly became like head of sales and catering at the Marriott full service hotel and did hospitality for a few years and. That was fun too. Yeah. But still didn't, for me, didn't completely scratch my... Was Craig Campbell there at the time? That sounds familiar. Yeah. He ended up being a State Farm guy, but I know he was at the Marriott before that. He's in my Rodin Club. It would have been Aspen, 95 to 99. Yeah, anyway. And then worked at Parmigan for a while. But at Parmigan Country Club, doing marketing and sales. Which was young at the time, right? Yeah. It was pretty brand new. Yeah. And I was, I don't know how old, 98. I don't know how old I was at that, 30, almost 30, 29. a gal named Carol Garten who ran the Loveland Economic Development. Okay. I had worked with her a lot for events, and she said, you have a business theory, you have a sales background, you understand marketing, you do marketing here, you are great consulting. She saw in me something and said, the Loveland Small Business Development Center is hiring a director. Oh, wow. I'm like, well, I've only run my own little marketing business. I can't coach entrepreneurs yet. She's like, oh, come on. So I applied, and I got the job. It would be great. And I remember people walking in much more sophisticated than me going, talk about cash flow projections. And I had to learn on the job. I mean, I had to literally go, let me get back to you. I'm a professional. I know what I'm doing, but I didn't. Right. And she gave me a chance. So this was my entree into economic development. Well, and you were back into mom mode. Oh, yeah. I was having babies. I had a two-year-old and a... Well, yeah, but also, like, you were in that mom mode, but also, like, when your mom left and you became the mom of the house, you became kind of the mom of these small businesses that were looking for help. I took it so seriously. You're like, shit, I don't know anything about cash flow projections, but I guess I'm not going to have to learn. No, and I knew finance by my, you know, I got A's in finance and accounting. Right. I just was intuitive. And the internet was around by then, so you could learn stuff a little better, right, than you had been able to. That's right. Fascinating. And so I just put an ad in Love Lame Paper. You know what's funny? Yeah. So who was the gal that ran that place for a lot of years and retired maybe five years ago? Yeah, she went on to the industry. I followed her path. No, but just a few years ago, somebody left that had been at the SBDC for a long time. It's Kathy. Well, Kathy Start was the founder of it. No, but later, later, later. Robin? No, after, after. Anyway. Cat. Probably Cat. Before Cat. So before Cat. Anyway, the gal I read before Cat, she asked me if I might want to become the director of the Loveland SBDC at one point. Interesting. When I was running a local think tank and I was a few years in and I was- You would be great at it. Well, but I was like, I'm trying to grow this business. I'm sorry. Yeah. Right, you had dreams to do your entrepreneurial things and a coach. Yeah, exactly. I was a few years in, you know, and whatever. It was probably, I don't know, it was years later. Interesting. But anyway, that's another Twinskies thing. Yeah, we do have a lot. I think I knew that from you before. We both got approached by somebody about being in that space. Well, I jumped at it, and I loved it. Yeah, it seemed like a great opportunity. I loved it. I love that job so much. And I mean, I did it seven and a half years. My resume is like the longest job I've had. Gotcha. Yeah, I loved it. I served like four people a day at the end of my career. So it was thousands of people, mostly startups with ideas. And I just got at that point so good. I could spot them walking in. I'm like, you're going to make it. You're not. Yeah. I'm sorry, but I could tell. I always say my special talent is identifying special talent. And as a banker, it was fun. When banking was still fun, I could bet the bank's money that somebody was going to make it. And I didn't screw up very often, which is cool. Good intuition. Another twin season. Oh, my gosh. I digress. This is a fan fest here. This is gross. Now that I know you're old, though, there's no word. Just kidding. So you did that for a long time. That had to have led to the atmosphere. Well, the next was Greeley. I did economic gardening. I followed the god of economic gardening was in Littleton, Colorado, for the world. And I'm a huge fan of economic gardening. I drink. This is like a concept. It's a concept for entrepreneurs. Okay. And it. It took off all over the world. He had followers, but he was in Littleton. So I became friends with him, Chris Gibbons. He's my true life mentor. Chris Gibbons, economic gardening. Yeah. So he had this idea of. Is he of other books as well? Probably. I feel like I've read something that's not that. I was looking at my bookshelf to see if maybe I had it. I don't think so. I don't even know if he wrote a book. But he definitely invented this concept of it's anti-incentive. It's grow your own. Economic gardening. Grow your businesses that you have in your community. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't poach others from outside. Let's just spend time on the ones we have. Right. That was his concept. I fell in love with him and his concept. Yeah. And so I studied. I became a master, and eventually we were consultants on the side for all of his companies, the states that would hire him to try to do more of that there. Do more of that heavy-duty research. Mark, research. You can't blame me for that. Yeah. Well, anyway, so that got me to Greeley because Greeley said, we want economic gardening, we want an expert. I was at the point of I could tell people walking in the door whether they'd make it or not, which is not – I was cynical. Yeah. And you can't coach entrepreneurs if you don't have it in your heart to really let them flourish. And I was trying to save some from not – I was at the point of like, please don't start that business. Yeah. You're going to go bankrupt. Please don't start that bad. So I became cynical and I knew it was time to go. Yeah. Get someone in here with the love of it and more uplifting. And I was too, I'd seen too many failures at that point. Yeah, it's hard. And positives. So I moved on to Greeley. I was only there a year and a half because you had a hard time. The head of the upstate Colorado. Do you know Rich Werner, who's the head of upstate Colorado? A bit. Okay. Well, the gentleman at the time saw me and said, what are you doing hiring her? She knows as much about economic development as I do about rebuilding motors, and I know nothing about cars. So that fired me up. This was the predecessor of Rich. Yeah, Rich is wonderful. Okay, good. But that was the first city. The cities at that time, it was 2006, all hired their first economic development people inside the city. Oh, interesting. Okay. So Mike was in Fort Collins. Mike Freeman. Fort Collins. Betsy Hale in Loveland. Boulder had Francis Draper. All right, rest in peace, Francis. And I was in Greeley. And we all got together and said, what are we going to do in these cities? They've never had economic development programs. So we built them. Interesting. So I went to Greeley, but didn't get accepted in Greeley. I was not a Greeleyite, had not been raised there. Your Iowa roots didn't help? I thought it would, but they looked at me like this little cheerleader. Bring her back just a little closer for me. Okay, but they looked at me and just like, what does she know? And he kind of made it hard. So at the same time, the roots of Inisphere were starting. Well, and... Probably yet, Greeley wasn't ready for powerful women as much as Fort Collins and Loveland were. Probably not. I suspect. No. Just knowing what I know a little bit about just the government background and all the stuff, right? Right. I don't know. Who was the head of Hensel Phelps? I'm terrible with names this afternoon. Oh, I can't remember. Wonderful man. Yeah. But he at that time was... T-something. Yeah. Bob Twainton. Twainton, yep. So I was in board meetings and they would look down and say, you're taking minutes. And I'm like, I'm on this board. So it was that kind of uphill battle there that I realized it would take me years to get anywhere here. So Mike Freeman was courting me from Fort Collins to work for the city of Fort Collins. And I had this dream of I'd helped so many, I was unable to help so many technological entrepreneurs. So people at a CSU that had come to me from Loveland, HP, people laid off with... Oh, totally. Fort Collins has been blessed by layoffs from HP because they don't want to leave. They don't want to leave. The only way they can stay here is to start a business. That's right. So we garnered all of that. There were so many movements. Dozens of times. At that time, especially post-2000, the bubble burst. And, you know, what? You have a PhD and you have all these patents, but you know nothing about business. But you can't spin up a business, yeah. And so I saw so many of those that we weren't outfitted correctly for. So it used to be Rocky Mountain Innovation Initiative, RMI Squared. Yeah, I remember when it was on the other side of Mason Street there on Mountain. That's right. So we weren't even there. I mean, I guess Kathy had an office. It was just an idea. Yes, and Kathy Kregel is her name who deserves credit for that concept. But she only had three clients the whole time, great successful bio companies. But we scaled it. It was, I think, Mike's vision to scale it. And then they brought me in, and I was the operations person. But you were already thinking about it kind of. Yeah, we were already strategizing to make it a regional community thing. Yeah, yeah. So I formed the- We could probably have a whole conversation about the spinning up of that venture. That's my favorite thing to do is spin up nonprofits. I mean, scale them to the point they're going and then get out because I get bored. So scale that up, form the 501c6 and raised money, but helped Mike build the building, you know, got funding for the building. Now, in the meantime, we took all the buildings that we could downtown from the city. and plugged as many entrepreneurs as we could in there. I mean, I had them coming out of three. One of the buildings on Mountain. Every opening office they had. Yes, used to be a methadone clinic. So people would come in for their methadone. I'd be like, it's an entrepreneurial setup now. Right. Go somewhere else. So yeah, I have all these stories about doing that. Is there one entrepreneur or entrepreneurial story from that season that especially stands out that's become something memorable? Yeah. C-Zero. I love Guy Babbitt. Oh, yeah, Guy Babbitt. He was a member of Local for a while. I'd love to have him back, really. C-Zero. Mostly companies that scaled to the point and then either failed or – I mean – Yeah, I hate to even mention names. I'm thinking of ones that shouldn't have... Anyway, yeah. I better not go there. Yeah, it's all good. Mostly my memories are we poured a lot of energy into those companies and for a lot of reasons. I don't know that they really understood. You've got a $700 an hour CPA that drove from Colorado Springs to give you advice. We just like this cheap rent down here. Typical entrepreneurs, you just do one at all, but you don't want to pay. been coming around a bit uh you know in those since those early days uh it's always been an interesting i've always we've had local think tank chapters meeting at the inosphere since gosh probably 2015 thank you inosphere you're a great host yeah um and and what we do is kind of a lot different you know and the the sage advisors groups are oh yeah They're awesome. And they don't have, kind of like what you were just talking about, we don't really know how to help these tech startups and stuff. And just because you worked for HP for a while doesn't really mean you didn't know how to help a tech startup either. We learned a hard lesson. Because another thing we had to do at that time was garner the hundreds and hundreds, a database of hundreds and hundreds of former HP people who wanted to be a part of the three people that were going to make it. So it's like, I can't, buddy, you're calling me every week to consult, get a consulting gig, and I have nothing for you yet. So Doug, losing his last name, Johnson. There's a lot of Doug Johnsons, but Tech Doug was a great volunteer. Oh, not Finance Doug Johnson. Not Finance Doug. He came later with Mike. He's in the Mike posse. And he was around, and we tried to do efforts to raise funding for entrepreneurs back then. Finance, Doug Johnson, invited me to University Connections way back when, which was my first brush with... Smart people. Community smart people. Right, right. And I was like a senior vice president at a bank, at a small bank. I had really no business being in the room, but people thought that I added value to the conversation, which I was super honored by. I'm sure you did. But having been invited to that conversation was actually a really special time for me back in those days. The juices were flowing for sure in Fort Collins. Yeah, there was a lot going on. I was curious about it. I mean, it was great. Yeah, it was super fun. And they still are, and they've morphed and scaled and done wonderful things. But it isn't the same. It's not the same. Yeah. You had hundreds of people wanting to give something, and you just had to find all their special qualities in it. That's why Sage was great. But what we learned in the end, what I have learned now, is that you can't just come out of a firm in an upper mental management role and relate to entrepreneurs. It's very different. And back then, I thought it wasn't. So we took all that we could, all the advice we could, and lots of effort. But it's still a struggle around here to have enough critical mass. Your dad probably would have had better advice for some of those startup entrepreneurs. Very good point. It's a very good point. Even from a different total industry. Scrappy, a complete scrappy. Yeah. You know what's funny is that your name is Kelly Sage now. I know. I didn't know it back then. So this is circa, I guess this is mid-2000s? Now we're at 2010. Coming up to 2010 by the time the building's built and stuff like that. Yeah. Picked out the carpets, picked out the lights, did all that stuff. Yeah, you're kind of everything. No one knows me now. Mike wants it to happen. Yeah. Kelly's who makes it happen. No, Mike didn't. He was inside City Hall as the CFO. He didn't even know what was happening. No, he was on the board helping finance it. Like, what do I know about entrepreneurs back then? Yeah, yeah. He really didn't. Got it. And he had to learn it, and he loved it, and now it's still there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. What a fascinating, like, you had a couple of those seasons where you get put into a place where you really have no idea how to do this job. I love that. All the way. I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. I love building things. Yeah. So, what was the chapter after Intersphere? They called me, I was having a hard time with some of the leadership direction, and I won't stop there. Can I just say a phrase? I won't say it out loud. There was an old boss I had. Somebody said of him, never heard a good idea that wasn't his. Yeah. And I felt that way a little bit around some of that leadership at times. For me, and I'm not a feminist, really, because I have men who have launched my Help Me. I mean, my best mentors are all men. Yeah. But it was an old guard in Fort Collins, worse than it was in Greeley. And I couldn't handle that. I had a man once tell me at the top that said... those women are never invited to meetings again, even though they were brilliant people. They're never invited again. They talk too much. And so this is the generation just right before, and it's changed a lot. I feel you. But I just said, screw you. Right. We're going to talk. I'm inviting those women to the conversation. I was a banker for 15 years. And in that journey, I had at least three female colleagues, mostly that were peers, that had fought through a ton of stuff to become lenders like me. Yeah. And I was made a lender in my second year of being a banker. Right. Went through a training program, now I'm a lender. But they were like, Kurt, you're such not a bigot, like mansplainer kind of asshole, like most of this culture and banking at that time was, you know, now 30 years ago, 25 years ago. Right. And I'm sure it was kind of the same. It was awful, frankly. I'm sorry to say. I mean, I went home. Yeah, it was an awful, probably the best time of my life because I loved what I did. And it's no one person. It's just a bro club, right? It's a bro club. It's still a bro club. Just a gross bro club. There's still a gross bro club up here. So I got out and I was recruited by a top banker in Loveland at the time to come back to Northern Colorado Economic Development and be the VP and help because I had seen now Loveland, Greeley, and Fort Collins and knew a lot of those businesses. The regional scope. The other thing I did while I did the Innosphere, I was hired part-time to be inside the city to do business retention. So I got to go to all the businesses I could and study the airport. So I did traditional economic development and built the Innosphere. part-time job of doing both. Yeah. Also got to start the GIS association and run the bioscience association. So now I'm in with all these business leaders. Your network was great back then for sure. It's changed. Yeah. Because as I get older and you become more of the leader of an organization, then you have staff doing all those, those conversations and yeah. Yeah. So somewhere along this journey, somewhere it felt like in your mid-30s, but I'm guessing it's more like in your early 40s or something, you fell in love again. Yes, I fell in love. And where were you and when? And he was at the Inosphere. He was at the Inosphere. He was a client of mine. Okay. And he was divorced and he brought me cookies every day and I was still going through a divorce and didn't even think of him as, you know, just we're buds. Yeah. And then as soon as I divorced, Bruce Beegey, do you remember Bruce Beegey? I don't. He was Greeley's economic development manager at the time, director. And he's like, oh, Kelly, you're divorced. It's been a while. Rick Jones would love to go out and date. With you and like Rick Jones. And we dated and was all on. I mean, it was so that happened. It was like in a few months it felt like you were married or whatever. Yeah, two and a half years. Well, but it was like your change in your person. Yeah, it was a love story. Like you all of a sudden became this... You weren't like this infatuated person, but you were like this driven, professional, single career woman when I met you. Yeah. And then pretty soon you're in love. And your smiles were bigger. And it was so cool to see. It was awesome. He's an amazing person. But he had esophageal cancer after we found out a year and a half after dating and in this great love story. Oh. And it was stage one. I didn't realize that. Okay. And they found it. He had a lot of- So you thought, we're going to be good. We're going to fight this. We're going to win. It was stage one, yeah. But it was a monster of a surgery to get it out, if you can imagine, in the middle of and between all your organs. Right. What I know now, I didn't know then. We were hopeful. And then he fought a valiant battle down in Denver with a specialist to get two major surgeries to get all that little teeny cancer out. And they said he's clear. He's great. You know, we got it all. All the margins are clear. You don't even need to see a doctor, a cancer doctor, for a year. So we got engaged, got married January 1, and four days later had his annual PET scan from all that. He was in the hospital, I don't know, 100-some days that year. I slept with him every night in the hospital. Right. And it was all over his body. So we just got engaged or got married four days later after our marriage. So the feet had just went in three months later or something. Four days after our wedding. Yeah, if he would have gone in. Right. Because they said, you don't even have to be looked at. We got the margins so clear. It's all good. Yeah. So got married, saw our future then, beat it. And he was only 49, 50, 50. And then 10 months later, he died. So that 10 months of marriage was... Another 100 days in the hospital and amazing doctors at UC Health. But they couldn't. It was too far gone. Flying all over the country trying to save through clinical trials. I mean, amazing. Wow. Awfulness. He was a champion, too. I mean, what a stud. You know, Nebraska wrestling state champion and just a beautiful singer. So we picked up the fiddle. Face the dragon. We used to sing all over in clubs. He got me singing and playing the violin. Oh. So it was a wonderful but sad experience as well. And I love to talk about it because he was amazing. Yeah. How did that, like, did you bounce back from it or did you go into a season or, like, how did that affect your work? You know me. I'm like, stiff upper lip. You're in my dad. What? You're going to bounce right back and work through it. His dying wish, he never really thought he was dying to the end. I'm like, you're dying, dude. You're dying. You know, you weigh 100 pounds. He never believed he was. So that was hard. But in the end, he ended up telling us that you better, Kelly, you got to continue to dance. That was what he always said. He's like, you're young. You have such a spirit. Whereas if I were dying, I'd be like, don't you ever go date another woman again. Really? I would be more jealous. But he's like, you've got to go. He was just that kind of a person. And so my daughter sat with me in Fort Collins in a restaurant and said, I'm putting you on dating apps. By then she's... In high school, graduating high school. Wow. Yeah. We had four kids between us. He had two and I had two. OK. OK. So you blended your family. Yeah. Anyway, so he just said that. And his brother even flew in from Wichita to like nine months later, a year later, and said, Kelly. You better get back out there. And I'm like, are you kidding me? I've done this twice now. And so my daughter put me on a dating app and dated off and on awfulness for a year. And finally I was done. And she's like, nope, you're going to try it again. And I met John. And so that was several years later. How long have you been married? So I've been married three. We've been together eight and a half years. Okay. Awesome. Well, congratulations on finding love again. I know from people I talk to, it's harder when you're older. It is harder. I mean, my gosh, trying to be pretty on a date for 50 is not good. Well, your history of finding easy grace for people probably helps, but also your discernment in picking winning horses and losers probably helped in the dating process along the way. Maybe there's a theme there. Thank you. You learned some stuff along the way. Yeah. I feel like it's a good time to take a little break. Okay. We'll come back into your career track after a little potty break. Sure. And then we'll get into some other interesting topics. Awesome. Thank you. Cool. This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank. Loco Think Tank provides peer collaboration for business owners. We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with. Our model features gift-back-minded business veterans in the role of Loco facilitators, And we're always looking for abundance-minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, local community, or to feature on this podcast. Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free. Just mention the Loco Experience podcast on your application. To learn more, visit our website at locothinktank.com. That's L-O-C-O thinktank.com. Should we sing a little bit? Yeah. We'll have to put the microphones away from us to keep it safe, but you don't want to? No, I'd love to sing. I just don't know words. Just swing it. Oh, I get the words. Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light. Now we have to swing the microphones away because we have to go full-throated to do it justice, and the microphones can't handle that. That's pretty high. That's a high start. Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night That our flag was still there. Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave. Yeah. Oh, the land of the free. Can't do it. Can't do it. Can't do it. And the home of the brave. Ben, standing ovation. I know you got that. I'm sure that sounded terrible, really, for our listeners. Octopus. We won't quit it. You can put part of it in. No, they're going to listen to it. It was cool. Like, how many people can beat us? Acapella? That was hard to do. It was amazing. Was that stressful? No, it was scary. The first time I did it, my palms were all sweaty. I wrote the words on my palm, and it all meshed. And I blanked even on this version. Thanks for doing that. That was fun. We're going to jump into the purpose-driven questions. Okay. Yes. Oh, wait. Before that, we missed a chapter of the warehouse. I know. Yes, we did. That's such another great startup story of not entrepreneurship, but an entrepreneur. Getting a nonprofit spun up. For entrepreneurs. Yeah. Okay. So that dream came when I was at Northern Colorado Economic Development, traditional economic development, helping Woodward expand. Yeah. Very... Missing my small business technology firms. Yep, yep, yep. And I saw out of the Innisfere everyone that we were helping was going to Denver or going to the coast once they got money. Right. They were leaving. And I'm like, oh, no, this is not the vision. We cannot lose this talent. Yet you don't blame them when you get millions of dollars in venture capital from the coasts. They require you to leave. They want you to be there. Or even Denver, it's outside of the market. Yeah, yeah. So the idea came to get a second stage set of advisors, people more sophisticated, not all the HP middle managers. Well, people invested with real estate to rent. Right, to want them to land here, yes, which was a little unrealistic now. Well, at that time it wasn't the truth. That's what really allowed the warehouse to rent. Flourish was having that home. Once we finally got into the forge, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still sit on that board. Awesome. But I was only there, let's see, it was probably two years. Jay Doctor and Dan Cameron asked- I was going to say it was the same two dudes that have been carrying through the whole time. Yep. We worked together even before for the vision and they said, we might like investing in some of these top companies. So they were interested in starting some sort of, virtual at first, advisory services for a second stage. So a whole different group of entrepreneurs and trying to find folks who are serial entrepreneurs. All already have to have customers. Yes, and more like 10 employees versus I have one employee or a technical CTO. Right, right. And what we, and Allison still struggles, we try to find, it's hard to find serial entrepreneurs around here who have done three companies and been sold for millions and are willing to just give advice. Right. They're off on a sailboat somewhere, you know. I actually have a referral for her. Awesome. Somebody that I just connected with today, and I won't drop any names because I want to check in with him first. Okay. But he's actually at that stage of life where he'd love it. We need, if you're out there and you have that sort of skill set, Allison and the warehouse needs you, it's hard to find. But when we can surround them with that kind of expertise, that's different than the startup phase. It's different finding money and getting your prototype that's at a different stage. So she's done a brilliant job. But I was there in the first two years, and that's when Rick was passing. So that I stopped because I knew I needed insurance and I needed to get out of the scale-up fund, not make a ton of money, but just for the heart of it. I needed to make money for the family at that point, more money. And so I went and tried for the City of Loveland job and did that for seven years as the Loveland's Director of Economic Development. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, we missed that whole chapter a little bit. It was on the way. And thank you. You gave me a referral or two along the way when I was first opening up my first Loveland chapter, which was cool. And you allowed me time. I think that's probably the first time about then that you actually learned about what I was up to with the think tanks. Because I was a banker and just kind of interested in stuff when we first met. Well, you're in that category of people that can help second stage businesses that we need and we need more of. But you're also running your own profitable company there to do that. Right. Whereas some of these second stagers are like, I can't afford to pay much. There's a disconnect, and there shouldn't be, because they all could use your services. They really should. I'm not doing this just to brown nose or plug you, but early on in my career, I realized some of the components and necessities of strong entrepreneurs were similar. And one of the components of businesses who had made it were the individuals who were members of groups like Local Think Tank or I'm forgetting all the names. Vistage or Tab or... Absolutely. The Entrepreneur's Organization. That was a theme through all the successful entrepreneurs that had made it. Looking back, they'd all been a member of these kind of organizations. It was a theme of my best customers when I was a banker. Okay. You know, the ones that took more awesome trips and coached their kids' little league games and made a higher profit margin, frankly, than their competitors. Yeah. Yeah. And had happier employees. Yeah. Why aren't you sitting getting advice from the people doing it and living it? Yeah. So smart. So anyway, thanks for that encouragement back in those days. So I didn't realize you were there for seven years in Lublin, too. A little over seven years. Yeah. I've ignored you quite a few of those years. I'm sorry. Well, my network has shrunk as I, again, move up the ladder and I have staff doing all these connections. The little people like me don't deserve it. No, no, it's just that now I'm dealing with big developments and don't get the fun part of going out and meeting all the businesses. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. And when did you make the transition? Did you leave from Loveland to go to Longmont? Was that true? No, the politics in Loveland were... They're still a little crazy. And are crazy. There's some crazy Karens out there in that town. And a lot of that town doesn't believe in... Just check Twitter. Yeah. I had really... For whatever reason, the mayor did not like me starting in. I mean, just as I went in, I was labeled as a huge pro developer person. Okay. And yet, if you knew... The mayor being... Jackie Marsh. Oh, yeah. So if you know me, if you know me and you know my history and did any research on me, I am a non-incentive heart of the community economic gardener. Right? If you know me. It's totally the contrary. But she pinned me as this person and it didn't work for seven years. I was on a panel discussion with Jackie one time that Sosama put together. Oh, yes. I don't know her well. She's a... a friend and she was before even the 2020 stuff, I think, or maybe shortly after it, she was trying to bring, bring the conflicts down, have like a wide variety. And Jackie was on a panel with me and she said something along the lines of, so it was a panel of like a few older people and then a couple of youngsters. And she said something along the lines of, well, I think somebody like this 21-year-old college student that's here on invitation to share their perspective would make a great city council representative. And I was like, Jackie, with due respect, I've been a student of history and economics and things. Even when I was 15, I was devouring magazines over and over. And with due respect, when I was 21 or even when I was 31, I would have added no value to a city council meeting. I had no experience. That's interesting. You challenged her, though. Oh, yeah. Not good, probably. She didn't really like it. But it's good for you to speak up and your opinion. Yeah. And I'm sure that YouTube video got like eight likes or something like that, or who knows. Nobody actually watched it, but it was a very... Interesting perspective to, so I can only imagine being under that kind of ideology a little bit. It was radical. And for me, I'm... Early radical. Like radical before radical was radical almost. She was, she had, and she gained a lot of followers because people were needing a passionate person to fight the man in that general way without really understanding. Without realizing that the man is the... In some cases, the man is the person that actually creates jobs and economic opportunity. Absolutely. And now I'm at this point in 30 years in my career where I really understand how to build an economy. I think that's our biggest problem in the world right now is that this culture, like we used to not worship business creators and job creators and stuff like that, but they were the heroes of communities, of these communities that we're talking about. That's right. These 50,000 to 200,000. 10,000. I mean, Little Iowa communities. Little Iowa communities, the cafe. You've got to have a primary employer. The guy that can keep the cafe open even, or an elevator, whatever. Yes, whatever's bringing in federal funding for farmers. That outside money has to keep a community. Something has to come in and make it grow. Yes, and for every one of those jobs, there is the coffee shop and the dry cleaner and the liquor store. But they have to have those primary ones. And that's why one of the blessings, one of the reasons our real estate's high-priced here is, when COVID happened and everybody can work from remote, we imported a bunch of quasi-primary employers. From outside. Which were companies that pay their employees that live here. That's right. And they import all these paychecks. They live here and they spend it at the Sprouts and the Safeway. It acts a lot more like a manufacturing company job. That's true. Than it does otherwise. I would love to study. It's hard to get that data. It is. The company's on that data. Anyway, we could go down a rabbit hole there, but I love data. Yeah, we could turn it out for a four-hour podcast if we wanted to. Yes. But we need to get into the purpose-driven questions because we have a purpose-driven segment sponsored by Purpose Driven Wealth. Thank you. Thank you, Clint Jaskerson and the Thrivent Financial Office in Loveland. Thank you to Purpose Driven Wealth of Thrivent for sponsoring our Purpose Driven Questions segment. At Purpose Driven Wealth, they believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose. Their mission is to help guide clients using a values-driven, stewardship-based approach focused on provision, contentment and enjoyment. With more than a century of experience, Thriven helps individuals and families navigate life and business transitions and prepare for the future while creating space to live generously and give back in meaningful ways. To learn more about Purpose Driven Wealth, please call 970-330-7411 for a complimentary initial consultation. And now, on to the questions. Yeah, when I quit food trucking, before I went full-time loco, I was doing Thriving for a couple of years. I thought so. I remember that. You and I were interacting almost most recently. Isn't that a Lutheran Christian-based organization? It was Lutherans, then it became All Christians. Okay. And now they're from Wisconsin, I understand they're getting kind of wokey. Oh, okay. It's changed. Freaking Wookiees. Okay. Take it over everywhere. Oh, shit. I don't know. Whatever. They wanted it to be for everybody. Yeah. So it goes. Hopefully, I don't get any shit from Clint. We'll like it, actually. Thrivent might have gas, but they probably won't be monitoring. I don't think their enforcement arm is too strong. Okay. Sorry, Thrivent. We still love you. Yeah. I do love you. I think you should get back to your roots in American values, entrepreneurship. Build well so that you can live generously. Yeah. That's right. I love that. I love the purpose. Yeah, it's a great purpose. What do you... So here's... When you've gone through a major life event, we've got some scripted questions. Yeah. What do you find the most important kind of capital? Is it relational? Is it spiritual? Is it financial? Is it... Like, what do you lean on? And you've shared a couple of times a real challenge. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to think of one. I have quite a few. I lean on the people, I think, more than anything. I'm a spiritual person, and I pray, and I- You haven't talked about faith at all. Would you like to? I don't mind. I'm somewhat, I struggle with my Christianity. Specific faith? I was raised Lutheran, very Lutheran, and always going to church, and I still believe in that, and I pray every morning, and I do my gratefulness every morning. But I still always struggle with that. And I have a great girlfriend, Minnie McLuhan, who's the president of the chamber in Loveland, who always gets me back to my faith and reminds me. So it's an area that I'm not an expert in, for sure. So I lean on that every morning, but also more so my friendships and my family and... And I'm a learner through conversation. And so I believe in this. I believe in great dialogue and thinking out loud and with errors and mistakes to get to a good solution. I like to say just because I say something doesn't mean I think it. No. I'm just testifying it. Yeah. Why did you believe I meant that? I'm just testing it. Exactly. Another parallel. Another parallel. So, yeah, I would say relationships. But I just have this... knack through trauma to compartmentalize it and put it over here so that I can get back to business and then come back to the grief or resolving the trauma in the times I have the space for it. Have you found silver linings in most of your griefs as well? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I am so proud of who I am, and I was not very proud of who I was growing up. I still lack confidence, but I'm proud of who I am based on what I'm hearing, how I've come through all these things. So, yes. So I'm, yeah, I'm proud of myself for forgiving or whatever you would say. The grace, you said it earlier. I haven't figured myself out yet. No, we're still works in progress. That's fine. Yeah. Talk to me about investing in other people. Oh, I need to do more of that. I did a lot more of that when I was younger and had more energy. And I found as I climbed the ladder and had more responsibility, especially in small nonprofits. Yeah. I didn't, I couldn't, I just couldn't be efficient and raise family, be the breadwinner. And that's, that's a lame excuse. And I find that's probably a very weak spot in my life. Yeah. Because I'm nearing retirement in the next three years, probably. That's my goal. I like it. And that is huge. I have to find the area to give because I can't wait to give in whatever area, whether it's people going through cancer, whether it's entrepreneurship, the themes in my life. Yeah, yeah. Whether it's women. I love to support women entrepreneurs. I don't know where it's going to be. Yeah, yeah. So if anybody's out there and needs a volunteer, I'm almost ready. One of the things I'm really proud of is when, so Allison Siebeck was, well, first on my podcast, she was episode 41, I believe. Okay. Told her story there. But then she became a facilitator for what we call the next level catalyst. So like for the number twos of our bigger company operators. Oh, yes. Okay. And she was so humble. I wanted her to become a facilitator. And she was like, well, but I never founded anything. You know, I just kind of stepped in from the founder and grew the business massively from there. Yeah, she's a good scaler. She's a great scaler. Amazing. But anyway, she had that chapter for a couple few years. But the revenue, she didn't even let me pay her. She made me pay the warehouse. Wow. She's wonderful. And the revenue that we paid her was what allowed her to buy. hire her first assistant, Christine. Christine, okay. Yeah, so, and that, in my mind, helped get some of the shit off of Allison so that she could focus on doing the growth things that let the warehouse really emerge, you know? That's right. The CEO can't do it all. Right. So look what you did. Having a teammate was a really big deal for her. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So. I love that. Anyway. I can't wait. The only thing that still scratches that itch is that when I do bring jobs in or help a company grow, whatever small way, my little fingerprints are there, I know that helps so many families. Right. As a civil servant, it just feeds me. Yeah, that's 10 paychecks. It feeds me. Although I want more direct. I'd love to see, like people at the Innisfere today don't know who I am. Right. But I formed the nonprofit. Right. And I picked the carpeting out. Right. But I go there now and I'm like, every project I need to put a little thumbprint so I can walk back with my grandkids. That's cool. And go, oh, I was here. That's part of why I do this podcast, right? Like, it won't be lost history that you picked out the carpet at Innsphere. Thank you. If nothing else, those grandkids, you can have them listen to this and be like, it was blue and this is why. Right, exactly. That big tree in the middle of the Innsphere, that was our avatar tree. Anyway, there's stories. But in that doesn't matter. It really, I'm humble enough to know it doesn't matter. But at some point, you want to blot that. What was that mark? Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for that. That's meaningful. And I'm... Not everybody is just purpose-driven. You know, especially in kind of quasi-government circles. Government, yes. Right? I'm sure you were a misfit. Like, when I quit being a banker, I was already a member of the Rotary Club for, gosh, maybe five or six years or something like that. So they knew me as this banker, and roughly half of the club was like, High fives, you're going to be fine. I had no certain future at all. And the other half of the club was like, you're a freaking idiot. You're screwed. You sacrificed all this security. Your wife should probably leave you now. to save herself the trouble. And it was such this crazy dichotomy of those that, I mean, it's the scarcity mindset versus the victim mindset, right? That's right. I love the abundant mindset. I mean, you have it. Ask of your needs and share of your abundance. That's right. That's been our motto. was my motto first, and then it's now a local Think Tank's motto because I donated it. I love that. Thanks. I love that. I love that you broke out, and it is the government. You see the government worker at eight to five. It's philosophy in nine words. And it's don't take of my abundance. Ask of your needs and share of your abundance. That's right. Don't take of my abundance. I'll share of my abundance if I want to. Yeah. But don't take it. And also don't ask of your wants. You know, ask of your needs, you know, because if you ask of your wants, then... You're draining. You're just sucking the life out of people. Well, and there's unlimited wants. Yeah. I've got so many wants. Yeah. Be pragmatic. Yeah, that's kind of the notion. That's awesome. Yeah, no, I'm proud of you for breaking out of that because it's a safe mindset oftentimes in government and in banking. And we need that in our- Those rebels like you and me kind of living in those worlds a little bit. Inside City Hall, we were known as the misfits. For sure. Everything. That's why the mayor probably didn't leave me. Which is why I got invited to the University Connections thing by Doug Finance back in the day. He saw you as the misfit that knew. He was a misfit banker, yeah. And he was. That's right. He was a former banker of wealth. He was a misfit banker, too. Yeah, wealthy individuals. Well, now he's got like two or three Tiger 21 chapters. I don't know. I haven't followed him since. Oh, Tiger21 is the investment group for enhanced returns. So it's like local think tank, but you have to have like 15 million liquid and be a first generation founder. And now you're an investor and a change maker. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you should connect with him. That's amazing. Because he's probably got some members in Longmont that could drip some dough on your juice. I'd love to help that. But he's a total influencer, awesome guy. He's been a great advocate over the years. Back in the day, he's had that in... Talk about purpose. He's had that in his heart from way back because we called every individual we knew that had some wealth and were givers. And it was a hard list because it's a private list into a room. And we tried to talk them into investing into entrepreneurship. And it didn't go well. And he's been always, he and Mike have worked at that for a long time. But because this area has only known well through real estate primarily. Yep, yep, yep. And land and selling land. But he's changing that a little bit. And he's changing that. And he's got members way down in Denver and stuff and whatever. And his experience, toolkit, and passions really, you know, lent to his being able to do this. That's awesome. And he's, you know, he's probably influenced more generosity, more generosity. than almost anybody because he's got that similar mindset and he's talking to actually wealthy people. That's wonderful. I've got a bunch of five and ten employee businesses people. Exactly. We've got the poor connections. Bring me your poor huddled masses of struggling to scale. Yes. And we will help you. We will. That's right. Or tell you, maybe don't do that anymore. Right. Go get a banking job for five years. Maybe you're not cut out for it. And then go back out. Yes, that was Scott Jennings. God bless you. The founder of Chiva Hut said, Bear, you need to park that fucking trailer in your backyard and go get a job. Did he really? Before you lose your mortgage and your marriage. And did you say, screw it, I'm not going to? Or did you do that? No, I did. You didn't go back and took his advice. I went to work for Thriving. All my chapter was like, dude, you don't even want to be where success on this. You want to be a manager of a three food truck operation, maybe a restaurant someday? Wow. That sounds like a miserable job for you. So they saw the vision beyond and tried to get you steered back to what you'd be better at. Right. They were like, if you can scale a local think tank, you'll be a much happier person. Or just go be a banker or something. Because you having three food trailers is not going to make you happy. It's going to make you miserable. It's so hard to change. And I was focused on not failing at all. At my restaurant thingy, right? Right. Like, I wasn't focused on doing what was best for Kurt necessarily. We don't know. Right. You know, a lot of us, I started studying school, engineering at school, because I was like, well, pretty good at math and building stuff. And then people were like, well, engineers sit in cubicles and they draw stuff all day. They don't talk to people. I was like, well... That sounds stupid, and calculus, too, is super hard. So let's shift. I want to say thanks to Seed and Spirit Distilling. And I've heard, we talked earlier, that you have come to really enjoy mezcal lately. I love mezcal. All this is local. They grow their own corn. I don't know if it's in this, but they... They bought an old combine so they could harvest their own corn and go literally seed to spirit. I can detassel people. I'm a mean detasseler. Actually, I suppose this is less corn, but otherwise. It's a whiskey and a mezcal hybrid. Makes great old fashions, honestly. I'm excited to try it. And would you like to salute or shalom or anything like that? A salute, yes. I wish I knew it in Danish or in our background. We should both learn our native language. Prost, that's German. We could have a Danish-Dutch. Well, Danish's are really nice, like the fruit pastry. What do Dutch have that's in comparison? Well, Dutch Brothers coffee. Tulips. Like really sugary coffee. They should crush tulips into something. Oh, tulips, yeah. We'll create something. It was a great tulip monopoly. What a crazy ass. That was like Bitcoin earlier. Maybe we shouldn't do this shot. Cheers. Appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you for having me. Yes. Woo! Okay. Wow. That's pretty smooth. Yeah. Not everybody's a shot person. No, I'm not really, but I'm going to be tonight. I am tonight. Yes. That was delicious. Good. You can drink that on ice. My sponsor likes it. Yes, you can drink that on ice. That's smooth enough for that. I do that for the podcast sometimes. Thank you. Yay. Okay, here's my address so you can drop off some bottles. I recommend Seed and Spirit Distilling. They're opening maybe in a month or two. Joel Gustafson is marrying my longtime member, Abby Stout, who operates the Edwards House Bed and Breakfast. That's awesome. Hospitality experts. Yeah, yeah. Actually, she saved us back during 2020. We got kicked out of the Innosphere. We got kicked out of the Economic Development Office. We got kicked out of all these spaces. Yeah. You were in the SBDC offices, weren't you? Yeah. Well, I had this. Yeah. So I had, and I had rented. So I had ended up finding like the best Western kudos to the gal there. I can't remember your name. And the mayor, the former mayor. And Abby, maybe, but before the manager let me have meetings there. Because we're a bunch of libertarians. We're like, we're going to have meetings. Yeah, we'll find a place. Right. So anyway, we started meeting at the Edwards House with one of their conference rooms way back in the day. So those two are getting married very soon, like maybe two weeks. And Whizcal is one of my favorite. Nobody else makes like a whiskey mezcal. I just heard about it literally yesterday. Really? For an old-fashioned, a mezcal in an old-fashioned. Yeah. They were promoting that at the Taco Man in Berthoud. Well, so now you know. So you should sell there. They should. Where at? The Taco Man by the TPC in Berthoud. Oh, okay. Well, by the TPC. So, Joel, if you're listening. Go hit him up. Go get him. Yeah. Before we get to your local experience, do you have any questions for me? I know you felt like a little bit of an interrogation most of this. Well, I've been dying to ask questions, but I never know how these work. One of my main questions right now is what could you use from the city of Longmont or the southern area of NOCO in the way to support your business and grow that? Thank you. So let's see, when was it? So 2021, the summer of 2021, I actually joined the Longmont Chamber for a season. Scott Cook. Yep, Scott's a great guy. Yeah. And I went down there probably 20 times and went to different meetings and networked. And I had... Kind of a core group of interested people. I remember Robin from Whibby Brewing was at least a little bit interested. And the gal that run the co-working space was super cool. I forget her name. I don't know that they're still going, the co-working space. Maybe not. And we were kind of getting close, but I never really found a good facilitator. And so I guess that would be my one thing. Like I couldn't really build a local think tank chapter because I didn't have a person solidly identified to build around. Right. You can't go down and do all that facilitation. That's right. Right. And so, well, and I don't know if you really know, our model really is I've never been the facilitator. Oh, I thought you were at the beginning. No, no. Well, I was of the second chapter for a short season before I fired myself because I sucked at it. Okay. I'm just the talent scout on that side, too. So I'm a supply-constrained business. Okay. So Andrea Grant was our first chapter facilitator. Love her. Yeah, so she had been Vistage. Yep. And when we started, she agreed that she would do the facilitation of the group for $500 a month. I charged $150 a month per member, so I needed four members to be able to pay Andrea. She recorded those one-on-ones with the members through the SBDC, so she got paid another $30 for meeting with the members. Right, that's true. They make money. And then soon, in a few years, the SBDC was like, We want you. Damn, all of our people that are meeting with Andrea are showing all these growth and revenue growth and hiring people and attracting capital. Well, she'd already been volunteering there. I was already aware of her. But I thought of her as a leader there, too. She was. That's how we got connected. I did volunteering as a banker there, and she otherwise was there. Oh, and the earliest roots... was Old Town Tuesdays. The bank I worked at every Tuesday, first Tuesday of each month, I had like, like all these libertarian tenants of business before I even heard of Ron Paul. But if you agree with all these tenants, then you can come and be part of this networking group that's not a networking group. We're going to play pool, and we're going to play ping pong, and we're going to drink beer and eat pizza and build relationships. And so like six out of the first 10 members of Loco were probably from that group, including Andrea and her husband that had hung around there. And he became my second facilitator. So what I'd really need is a facilitator. And if you go to the Loco Think Tank website, there's a list of 10 characteristics. acknowledges that they've been blessed in business. They've built something awesome, not just from Fortune. It's hard to find these people. But, yeah, I know. But they're there. They're out there. But this job is better than the job at the warehouse because it's a durable connection. They get to build relationships, and they build – they're the little hub. Yes. So they can have 10 people around them that – The facilitator's journey looks like a successful one. So whether you're in the big kids club or the middles or the littles, like Moses Horner is a facilitator for the littles group. He started his painting company when he was filling nail holes by himself. Right. And he had a young baby at home and a fresh bride. And then he was like... man, it would be, I could do more if I could hire somebody to fill some nail holes for me and just paint. Why are you paying me to do that? And then now he's got a 30-person company. He's been going for 26 years, and he loves the idea of helping. He's had painting company members. Wow. Like where he's like, hey, you've got a three-person painting business, and I can, you know, I want you to. We could do a painting incubator. Yeah. But any service company or any. It's a special person. It's just business is business. And so. But I think people. They are hard to find. I will say. But that's what I need in a long mind. But there's more out there that could do it if they didn't feel intimidated by it. Right. And I don't. That's, I think, the thing. Yes. I think they're out there. They're just intimidated. I don't need you to be an expert in everything. I don't need you to be an. You don't need to think that you should be a business consultant. That's the hurdle. You just need to love it. You need to love business, love community, love people. I can recruit somebody that's really good at finances if you're not. You know, Kurt, this is an aha. Maybe it's the WizCal. It could be the WizCal speaking, but thank you, WizCal. It's an aha for me that all these years I've tried to recruit this exact type of person for so many of these nonprofits to volunteer or get paid a small amount. And I think it's been too intimidating. I think there's genius all around. But perhaps we set the parameters and they think, well, I can't go coach. and name a business that's that you on you'll go oh that's intimidating they know more than me I think it's there so maybe it's a matter of not lowering our standards but just lower you don't have to be you know what I'm saying nobody's the smartest one no we all have just a little component and together right with a lot of conversation right if you are a person who can so that's one of the big things I coach my facilitators on is don't be the answer provider I'm talking yes and and that for me So my, one of the four, so Rotary Club, Vistage, I was a member of for a while. I was on the board of the Matthews House. Oh, Matthews House. So kind of a whole person approach to social services. Actually, I was the president of the board when I launched Loco Think Tank. And then the fourth one that went way back to like 2005 was, when I lived in Colorado Springs, I had joined Bible study fellowship and they asked me to be a discussion leader in like year two of me being a Christian. Oh, that's intimidating. And I was like, I don't know anything about the Bible. Yeah. And they were like, well, you don't have to. We'll teach you how to facilitate a conversation where you find truth together. And that's the thing that I coach my facilitators the most on, especially some of them have been retired for five, 10 years, right? They're not on the leading edge of AI and stuff. They don't necessarily know some of the latest SEO techniques and stuff, but they can open up a conversation that finds the truth. among 10 other people that know stuff. That's awesome. You just described the job description of someone that you need. Yes. And that really Northern Colorado needs. You don't need in Longmont would love to have, I'm sure. There are so many genius people. Now you've opened my mind to thinking about it. You did in the call about this. So some of that's a little bit bored. They don't have all their time sucked up. Usually it's... like six months after they sold something, but before they start something else, you know, and we can, for the wives out there, we can keep your husband or husbands from starting another new business. Right. Because they can live somewhat vicariously through 10 other journeys. And that's not their house is on the line then. Right. Yeah. Hopefully they're not even in that place. They shouldn't need my paycheck. They should want to almost volunteer for my job. That's right. But like kind of the same as you trying to recruit people for the sage advisors or for the warehouse or whatever. The sage advisors, they were lined up. But it's relational. What I offer is really a long, like Moses chapter is celebrating seven years. Five of the original members from seven years ago are still in the group. Which is super cool. Yeah, it's alumni. They've watched each other grow. Some have grown tremendously. Others haven't grown as much, and they can be satisfied. And that's okay. If you're happy, you've got the place where you want to be. That's cool. Exactly. You know, a couple of his businesses, business owners bought buildings last year, literally on the five-year anniversary of saying, well, for their office. Oh, for their own. Like five years ago in their chapter meetings, they were like, I don't want to, when my five-year lease comes up that I just signed, I want to buy something next time. They didn't. And so there was peer pressure to do that thing. Now they own their building. Wow. And it's just incremental, making a little bit more better, smarter people. Yeah. So yeah, that's why I love it. You know, this is maybe a vulnerable octopus moment. We'll see. But you tear up on stuff touches you. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to get a theme of when. I used to be kind of tough. Like when I was 20, 25, 30, I was tough. But I've seen so many things. I've just been in so many vulnerable situations where people confess their fears or hardships or shortcomings or whatever and then fixed it. I think it's amazing. When they succeed. Somebody could die. I don't care. Like if an old person with cancer dies, I'm like, whatever. We need less old people with cancer anyway. Those fuckers cost a lot. Yeah. Keep them alive. Oh, that's the libertarian in you. I mean, it's like the Norwegian or whatever. But a success story that can... Kill them when they're 90 and they're dying. Right, just whack them off. Yeah, walk out of the forest if you're going to cost us too much. Take that pill. I kind of have that same feeling. I mean, if I get to that point. Right. Anyway. Yeah, I like to say I'd like to die... At 90 miles an hour on my motorcycle hitting the side of a train. Oh, I'm not as brave as you. No, but I would take that pill, Kevorkian, and go, good night, or drink those three drinks. Yeah, whatever it takes. We should do more of that. I hope I'm still capable. Well, my brain would have to, like, I don't know, my body would have to be riddled and my brain's still good to really justify that. But then you have to be able to, like, do the shift of the motorcycle. Yeah, but I've been riding since I was 15. I'll be fine. Muscle memory. The train company would be like pissed when I smear myself on the side of their tanker, but whatever. Cost BNSF. They're rich anyway. That's Warren Buffett mostly, right? Well, back to Don Johnson. Yes. The guy that I can't think of the name of, Fear and Loathing. Oh, Ben. Ben's got to look this up for us. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Who wrote that? Henry S. Thompson. No. Thompson. Yes. It's something S. Thompson. Hunter S. Thompson is who I've partied with several millions of times. Oh, no shit. You've partied with Hunter S. Thompson? Yes. And he's a bong that's 10 feet tall and all the 14-year-olds around him. With Stephen Stills and all kinds. He shot VCRs off the deck of Don Johnson's house and shot them with shotguns. He's the one who blew his ashes out, right? And his death after suicide. That was what he wanted. So not that this is a sick, morbid turn. So you've partnered a bunch of times with Hunter S. Thompson. Yes. That's cool. Amanda, have you ever partied with Hunter S. Thompson? That's the name I blocked. Well, probably because I partied too much with Hunter S. Thompson. I blocked his name. Sorry, here's to Hunter. Cheers, Hunter. It feels like Hunter would want us to have another half shot of Whizcal. I can't drink all this wine if I do have another half shot. No, you don't have to. I do. I'd do another shot. Hell yeah. Yeah, okay, we'll just leave the rest of the wine behind. Here's to Hunter. I have great stories. Why don't you start a Hunter S. Thompson story while I pour the Whizcal? Well, the one I love the best, I just kind of told. But Hunter S. Thompson was at the house, Don Johnson's house, and he always would come over from the Woody Creek Tavern. That was his favorite hangout, right? He's known. Yeah, it's a great place. Oh, I have a great Hunter S. Thompson story. Actually, Hunter S. Thompson's at the bar. And this is not my story. This is a friend of mine story that was he was at the bar regularly at Woody Creek Tavern. And he he had this is a true story. It's going to sound non true. But he had some sort of smoke alarms or bombs set up to go off. If anybody trespassed or something? No, no, just that day at Woody Creek Cavern. Oh, okay. Okay, so the people were at the bar that didn't know that this was going on. He's telling a story, and he's sitting there, and they're talking to him. And he gets up and just out of the leaves. Well, he knew everything was about to go off. So all these... like explosions go off and smoke is everywhere and fills the place. And he just exit and he videotaped the whole thing because he just on a day, he was crazy. I mean, clearly just coming over one day while we were all there at Don's house to shoot off VC, throw VCRs in the air and shotgun. Right. And that's crazy. Steven Stills came over with his wife. He had this beautiful wife and child and Hunter S. Thompson was there. And Don's like, we got to get Hunter S. Thompson out of here because, He's crazy, and there's children now in the house. And we can't have him around those kids. No, who knows what he's going to say or do. Oh, so he was legitimately crazy. Legitimately crazy, but fun. I always liked him. I got along with him. I like the eccentrics, too. But I'm a 25-year-old, blonde-haired, down-to-ear little girl, so I'm sure he really liked me at that point. Right. Yeah. Do you think your husband got that job at all because you were cute? No, he did it on his own. That was good, okay. I didn't think I was cute at that point. Anyway, but I look back and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's probably why Hunter liked me. How awkward is that? I have no idea about that stuff. I'm just so blind to that. Yeah, nobody's ever manipulated against you or anything. It was just kind of observable. No, I never have thought I am. I've never had an awareness of that at all. I still don't believe it. No. I don't think I am at all. I'm uncomfortable sitting here being videoed. But thank you. Yeah. Especially knowing how old you are. Gosh. Let's do a shot. Okay. Here's to Hunter. Here's to Hunter. And you. Thank you. Yeah, fun times. Are you ready for the local experience? Do you know the story you're going to share? No, I don't know. I'm not prepared. So this is the craziest story from your life, not Hunter's life. I probably just told you one. No, that was Hunter's story kind of, but from your life that you're willing to share. And we may have touched on it before. I don't even know. Something. Gosh, I think I told you all my crazy stories. Really? I don't think so. You have more crazy stories. Well, I would say that time during Don Johnson and having... Living in Aspen and being in this celebrity lifestyle. And being this little Iowa girl. Living in a crazy-ass downstairs apartment and being this Iowa kiddo. Yes. And, I mean, we were so poor. Right. You know what I mean? We had nothing in... And yet the cocaine's always on the countertop. I've never tried cocaine. Really? You went to those parties and you just... I'm a square pig. Wow. I am the first child. But your husband was probably partying like crazy. Nicolette Sheridan. I mean, big stars were coming in and walking around naked. And he was just doing his job and who knows what else. I don't know. It was fine. And you're just living. At home and just, I'm going to be a teacher at CSU. I mean, I'm this weird mix of a raised by 60s parents, but very square. Yeah. Driven, gonna succeed, kick some ass. Yeah. Say it like it is. And just, I'm very proper. Yeah. Isn't that funny? It is. It's an unusual mixture. It is. I would say. I didn't go down the dark paths I very much could have in all those scenarios. Like, obviously, you just rejected more wine so that you could have another half shot of mescal because you liked it. Because you know your limits, your boundaries. Yeah. I've always been in control too much, right? I mean, I go crazy. You can talk to my girlfriends, but I'm very much... Even in those crazy moments in a safe place. Yeah. Like, you don't allow yourself to go... No. Like, I've... Never. I entered a karaoke contest at a bar where I worked at while I was working at the bank where the bar owner also worked... um, on acid. Oh yeah. And I made it to the finals. Oh my God. No, I'd, I'd never be brave enough to do any of that. That's my sister. Right. Right. Skydiving, deep sea diving. She's my crazy side, but I have it in me, but I'm, I'm just, I'm safe. You've kind of a high responsibility quotient. That's where part of our divergence is. I suppose. Yeah. I've seen a lot of, a lot of trauma and I've taken care of a lot of people. Yeah. And I kind of always have to be in somewhat control. Yeah. I've been kind of blessed to not have too much trauma. Yeah. Right? That's awesome. I've been kind of a little bit happy-go-lucky. Haven't had that many. Like Jill and I on a BMW touring motorcycle, I shared this story before, but one time we came around this corner down by Deckers outside of Woodland Park. Oh. And we had this fully loaded touring motor. And we went all the way sideways where I could literally look over to my right and my back... end of my motorcycle was trying to pass me. Wow. But I turned into that thing and I read the magazine. You found it right. Really? And we'd wiggle it out. Here we are. Nothing bad happened. Yeah. You know, I got into a fight with a literally four pound Samoan coke addict bartender guy in Keystone one time, and I knocked him down and broke his finger, and I came out unscathed. A Samoan? Like a huge man? Like his thigh was as big around as my chest. But you made it out and you, so you're blessed. Yeah. Somehow. Somehow I've kind of skated above the kind of fray and not been crushed by trauma stuff. No, not me. I mean, even right now, my mom's in moderate Alzheimer's at 78 and I'm our caregiver. Yeah. Yeah, your primary. I'm just, it's always in life. I have it in me to be that crazy. Yeah. I've got it in me, trust me. Yeah. Because it breaks out every now and again. But generally I can't because I'm taking care of somebody. Yeah. I went to a psychic recently with all my girlfriends just for fun. And she said they all had some title and I was the mother. And I'm like, I'm the mother? And I was like, oh, shoot, I am the mother. That's our big difference is like you're responsible. You're the responsible one. I have to be, yeah. You've always had to be kind of. Yeah. And I'm kind of like even part of the structure of Loco Think Tank is I set up people like Moses Horner and Drew Yancey and Pete Gasly. Drew Yancey. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that family. They're great. So they... They're the ones that are responsible. I find the smart kids and I put them with the responsible people. You're a brilliant connector. They can add the value because I don't want to be responsible for teaching you how to build a good, awesome business. We'll never be billionaires, but we've got our hearts filled. Yeah. That's always what I say. I'm not making the money, but we have our hearts filled. So I still don't feel like we've quite checked the local experience box. Okay. Oh, yeah. I don't. Is there anything even going back to, like you told me about your dad was rocking with Buddy Holly and crazy stuff. The Hollies, not Buddy Holly. Oh, different. He had records. He had records? Oh, he was the Hollies? Yeah, he has records. Was the Hollies? No. No. He played with those bands as they came through town. He was always the startup band, so we got to meet him and jam with him. Opener for a lot of cool bands. Yeah. But those are memories that are beautiful for me. Yeah. I think if I... What was the question again? Well, it's a crazy experience. So loco is kind of a play on words, right? So it could be a joyful experience. Or a... or a release of sorrows or who knows what like like your singing is amazing like you i love singing carried that throughout your life as well as making music i'm trying to think i honestly have a crazy experience that shaped your journey is what we're digging for Gosh, I wish I would have been prepared for this one. I might have to come back and record it. You're probably sending an email. Yeah, add it in. And I also have such a high level of – Well, you're so responsible. I'm like, these are all normal things. But I've had so many highs. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so proud of the Innisfere, even though people don't – I'm so proud of that work in my heart. And I just – And what the warehouse had become. Yes. But it – I got to start that and form it and do all the basic stuff so that someone could follow it and have the energy like Allison, like a perfect person to scale it and make it beautiful. So I have all, I've left a trail of things, jobs and places. And just today I drove by the Bass Pro, which is this big, huge, beautiful place on the highway they've been after for 30 years. And that was my deal. And I got to see it and I go, oh, there's the Bass Pro. It's finally built. There's going to be like a thousand jobs there. The Amazon facility is 3.2 million square feet. People hate it. but I love that they asked me for incentives four times, and I said no to them four times. Right, but they still put it there. And no one knows that, and they're like, we're coming anyway. So I don't have as many shocking highs. That's probably your local experience is just – how many fingerprints you have around Northern Colorado. All over. Mostly underground, mostly not really known about. Thousands of jobs and families, yes. Mostly not really appreciated. Yeah. And you didn't, it's kind of like me with local think tank. Like I didn't, I didn't make that business grow from 1 million to 3 million and then to 10 million. They did it. But we helped them. They couldn't have done it maybe with my little fingerprint. Yeah, maybe a little bit. Or maybe they would only be 700,000 by now. You did it faster. Right, you did it faster. We helped you. That's what I call our groups is distributed accelerators. Yeah. I love that. They're all independent. They're attached to each other. They're connected to each other kind of too in a network system. Yeah. But really this little unit, like try to make every business in that little distributed accelerator work better. That's right. That's your goal, Mr. Local Faciliter or Mrs. Local Faciliter. You have to be very humble in the work we both do. You don't have to, there's no ego in it. And there are people in my field who have lots of ego. Yeah. But you can't have an ego because no one really will know. And it doesn't really matter, but you know. Do you think you want to be a local facilitator in Longmont? Or Lovemont? Maybe someday. I don't know, when you retire? I mean, like you've never really built a business. No. You're not really qualified on paper, but you understand more about building businesses than most people that have businesses. Right. In some ways. I don't know. We'll have to talk about it more. You're not my normal candidate, but your heart is in the right place. Right. Yeah, I've got the heart for sure for that. And people still call me and go, we helped me start my business, we helped me start you. I still coach people. What do you think you'll do? In three years if you retire. I have to say, I am... You want to be grandma mostly? No. Oh, I'd love it. I have six kids now. Yeah. Six kids in our family. But they don't have any... You don't have any grandkids yet? None of them. 21. Oh. 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. They're all year apart. 27. Make some babies. That's the biggest thing Northern Colorado needs actually is the reproduction rate to increase. Do you hear that, children? Children. We're not importing kids like we used to. So we need to have the locals make more babies. Act like you're Baptists and Catholics from Texas back in the day. None of them are on that kind of a chart. A couple of you need to find better partners before you come forward. Thank you, Kurt. Thank you, Kurt. Thank you, Kurt. But anyway, our A partner would be really good. Well, it's way better. Come out of my basement. But anyway, yeah, I don't know what I'll do. It's the number one rule of retirement. You have to move towards something and not away from something. For sure. And so I have work to do there. Part of my motivation in Local Think Tank really is I saw – self-destructive behavior in business owners that would sell their business and then be like, hey, I got a Corvette and a girlfriend and a drinking problem. And now I'm going to die in five years. Now I'm dead early. Yeah. And instead, they could just have a chapter and help people prosper. Yes. You have to have a purpose. Number one thing in retirement. You have to have a purpose. You can't just get lazy and die. Yes. So I will not. I don't know what I'm going to do yet. All right. What else do we have? Do you want to do anything else? You covered it. We're over time already. I hope you've enjoyed it. It's just filled my heart today. Thank you so much for doing this for me and inviting me. Oh, of course. You're more than qualified for this podcast. Nice to see everybody. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, everybody. Cheers. Bye. Until next time. Hi, this is Kurt Baer, host of the Loco Experience podcast and founder of Loco Think Tank. Every week, I explore intimate conversations with business founders and leaders. And so I hope you'll join us this week and every week for a new episode of the Loco Experience.