The LoCo Experience EP 288 | Life is Better Here! - Ben Smith & Lindsey Phillips

0:00 In today's episode of the Loco Experience Podcast, I sat down with Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips, the owners and therapists at Evolve Counseling. They shared abundantly about their inspiration to begin a private practice in the journey, first by Lindsay and then drawing in Ben toward leaving corporate roles to become self-employed. We talked about the business of mental health, what drew each of them into the field in the first place, and some of the plans they have to expand the practice in the seasons ahead. I also put some of my own quirks on display and asked some nutty questions. And we wondered together why more and more young people have been seeking mental health counseling and if the trends will reverse once Trump leaves office. Good people, great stories and inspiring business journeys are all to be found in this episode.

0:44 So please join me in enjoying my conversation with Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips. Welcome to the local experience podcast on this show. You'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off-limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience. My guests today are Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips, and they are the owners and therapists at Evolve Counseling here in Fort Collins. Right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I haven't been to your office. I've been to most of them. Yeah. Like a lot of therapists. I'm a frequenter.

1:25 I'm a dabbler. You've sampled. Yeah. Kurt, thank you for having us on. We've been excited to do this. How many visits before you know somebody isn't going to work out for your practice? Because I've been kicked out of a lot. Is that right? Is this a vetting meeting here? Yes, it actually is. We should have some screening questions. No, I mean, that is a serious question, though, is like how, like, one of the beautiful things about Loco Think Tank is I get to kind of pick who's in the club or whatever. And if people are weirdos or whatnot, potentially dangerous, I don't have to let them in. Right. Yes. And I guess the potentially dangerous is probably a qualifier. But do you refuse clients regularly?

2:07 And what's that look and feel like? Yeah. You want me to take a swing at this one or... Yeah, go for it. I'll fill in. Yeah. We've done a good job over the years just kind of defining like who we work with, who we're comfortable with. And that comes through in our website and our advertising. We mostly serve people with anxiety and depression, a lot of college students going through that transition, major life transitions for people of all ages. So that in and of itself does a lot of just self-selecting and narrowing. They've looked you up a bit before they're coming. Yes. Now, that being said, right, one gets past the goalie once in a while and it's like, well, what do you do? And it really is when you speak to specialization, it's actually a very easy and kind conversation.

2:48 It's just like, hey, this is so important to you that you get the help you need with this, that you get this right. Right. I would hate for you to establish a relationship with a therapist. Then me have to say like, well, we get along great, but I, I'm really not qualified to help you with that. Yeah. Um, and, and, and you kind of just say, Hey, let me, let me put you in touch with, with someone that I think could help you out. And we just try to be like a positive, like redirection in their experience. And, um, and you have a list of therapists that you try to send those people to. Um, Our enemies. Yeah. No. No, but you're right, though. I mean, sometimes, like, their difficulty isn't because of a specialty. So it's really a dramatic personality disorder thing or major substance abuse problem or something like that.

3:32 Precisely. You aren't the right people, really, to fix it. Exactly. Yeah. I liken it to specialization within doctors. If you have a heart problem, you want to see a cardiologist. You don't want to go see an oncologist. And sometimes... we're not the person so yeah we usually catch this during screening so before they're established and seeing us regularly we usually have back and forth whether that's phone or email tell me what brings you in what do you want to work on so we can usually filter people out that aren't a good fit that you know our our training doesn't really help support um before they even get established so yeah And you said, I think, kind of a bit of a specialty or at least a concentration in life transitions, but especially younger people, depression, anxiety, probably a pretty big pool.

4:18 It feels like that pool has grown. Like, it used to feel like old married people problems and stuff, usually, you know, except for kids whose parents beat them up or, you know, obviously... That kind of thing. But counseling among teenagers, I would suspect, has tripled over the last 20 years. Skyrocketed. And COVID had a lot to do with that. We saw numbers just hit the ceiling throughout that. A lot of anxiety. A lot of difficulties connecting socially. Yeah, we're definitely seeing an increase in young people. Is it still? Like, is it a resilient increase? It's shot up during COVID and then it's kind of hung out.

4:58 We see influences from social media as well and people just not functioning as well or as independently as previous generations. So that plays into the anxiety as well. There's not a lot of self-efficacy. There's not a lot of belief in the self that they can. go and do yeah and so yeah people generally feel anxious when they're in that state right well and there's a lot of i imagine like keeping up with the joneses like comparative stuff you know i'm not as cool or as smart as mark zuckerberg so i guess i'm a big failure yeah exactly it's amazing um how many college age students i've had say to me they're like i mean i'm 22 now so i'm i'm a For what? Yeah, yeah.

5:38 And it's just this relative thing, right? Of like, I can remember feeling that way too. And they're comparing to their peers and all of this. And yeah, it's just that they haven't had that season perspective. It just comes with being around a little longer. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I suppose because you guys are relatively young, or at least probably for your trade and young looking besides, you're somewhat safe to approach, safer than like an old stodgy person. person or well well thank you first off i didn't know it was gonna be like just yeah kurt pours you a nice drink and and compliments um uh no appreciate it i think that's played to our benefit a little bit we probably are both a little younger than we look um we're in our early 40s just for the record i think you're older than you're actually older than you look Sorry.

6:28 Perhaps did I phrase that poorly? That's what you meant to say. Yes, your wife is looking at you like, excuse me. Yeah, this is our 17th year of practice for each of us. Wow. We've been therapists since 2009, 2010. So we've been at this a while. We're in our early 40s. We're not spring chickens, but I think we don't quite look like their parents. But we're like, you know, an old, wise, older sibling. Yeah. So there's some relatability there. Cool uncle or something. Yeah, exactly. And so let's get into your practice a little bit beyond that. So is it just the two of you? Do you have other counselors and therapists in your office as well?

7:10 Right now, it's just the two of us. You mean to keep it that way? Yeah. Yeah? Well, maybe not. Okay. All right. You'll hear it here first. We're actually looking to hire a couples therapist. Okay. And maybe looking to get going on that later this year, early 2027. Yeah. Right? Kind of doing our due diligence to be ready for that. I remember that from our Zoom call a couple months ago, Ben. Yes. Was that even though you guys are married, you don't really do couples stuff. Right. Right. And I was like, well, that's got to be a big gap in the game for a practice because most people are part of a couple. So if you help them through some other stuff and then they got some couple stuff, you're like, now, you know.

7:51 Right. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So looking to expand. But we've kept it small and we've really enjoyed that. We both came from working for other mental health agencies and things previously. Maybe we'll touch on that. We sure will. Yeah. But yeah, there's just been a purity about it. Like when there's not a whole agency and politics and outside stakeholders, the mission is really clear. It's like attract and satisfy customers. That's it. And if something isn't speaking towards that, then it's noise. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we've got that feedback from clients that have come to us. They've sought out a small practice specifically because they feel like they can get lost in the shuffle of a bigger organization.

8:33 Well, if you're in a big one, the hiring is so tough in the industry that it's almost like you have to become a training organization. Yes. And that means all of your clients are meeting with early career therapists. Yeah. Right. And that's challenging too, right? To ensure that you're giving really sound counsel. Yeah. There's just a learning curve that comes with the years that you spent doing this. Ooh. Let's talk about... Ooh, learning curve. Uh-oh. I'm just kidding. I was tempted to say, like, what's the worst advice you ever gave somebody? What was the result? Yeah. It's never happened. We've never given that advice. Just like a politician. You're a second-guess of thing I said. The government official has never made a mistake.

9:16 No, actually, let's dive into – we'll come back to probably the growth plans and the decision around adding, but let's dive into the start. Let's set the stage on what was the season of life six months before, three months before your private practice started. Sure. I think you were first. Yeah. So it came on kind of out of nowhere. I was working at a hospital on an inpatient psychiatric unit. So just working with. Oh, so you've worked with the real nutty ones before too. The most severe, the most severe people. They're involuntarily committed essentially because they're so mentally ill. And I had a friend who had started a private practice.

9:58 She was working at the hospital with me and she started a private practice on the side and she was dabbling in it. And I was kind of keeping an eye on, well, how's that going? Um, I'm not a risk taker, so I'm like, okay, she can be the guinea pig. Let's see how this goes. And she, you know, just kind of talked to me about it and I started to learn more. And then I started listening to other podcasts and entrepreneurial advice for therapists. And that was early stage in the podcast world. Yeah. This was what, circa 2018. And, um, just started to get additional information. And through that process, I was like, you know, I think I can do this, but that, um, taking the risk to leave a stable paycheck with benefits and just go off on your own and your little venture that you want to be sustainable.

10:48 Um, it just, it was scary. None of your existing clients are really the kind of clients you want for your future practice. No, no, no. They needed higher levels of care than what we currently do. Like straps for the tables and stuff. I mean, it's just not appropriate for outpatient. It wouldn't be safe for them. Yeah. Understood. So eventually, you know, after talking to Ben, he was instrumental in the sense of he was like, OK, well, I'll hold down my job. That can be our stability. You know, you can go try this thing. Take a risk. Go for it. What, Ben? Where were you at at the time? Kind of similar. I was managing a residential treatment center in Greeley. Okay. And I spent kind of the first, I don't know, nine years of my career there. Okay.

11:28 And, yeah, similar, like more severe population. If it's inpatient, you know, that's kind of implied. And this is drug and alcohol kind of inpatient or not at all? Not that? More mental illness stuff or both? It's a specialization you couldn't see coming. Yeah. So I worked with – so most of the kids in the program – they were kids. They were under 18. Actually like up to like 21 but here or there. They were in youth corrections. So in the state of Colorado, they do this interesting thing, which I think is largely a good thing. It's just like, hey, you're very young. You found yourself in significant legal trouble. We mean significant, not like you were out partying but like – yeah. And we're going to allow you to defer your treatment into a treatment program, right?

12:10 Defer your sentence. Yeah, exactly. OK. So that's who we worked with. And yeah, they were kids that committed serious crimes. Some of them were gang involved. We were most known for like serving kids that had committed sexual offenses. So, yeah. Okay. I know that can be a tough. So like 16-year-olds with their 11-year-old cousin or stuff like that, whatever. Yep. A lot of times it was like incestuous. Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know, and just kids that came from like just rough, horrible situations. They had no guidance on what it was like to be a normal person or a responsible person. Just no boundaries in that household. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, not to draw focus from Lindsay getting underway here, but it's like I'm still in that line of work. Well, your job was pretty hard too. She's at the hospital. Yeah. You're like, okay, buck on, little soldier.

12:52 Right. Sounds good. I'm out of here. Yeah. I'll stay in the trench a moment longer. And did you jump the coop or did you dabble on the side like your friend? Yeah. So I went to part-time at the hospital and got things underway and, yeah, basically launched it. And as I saw, okay, yep, I can get clients. I think I'm understanding the business side of this. Right. Let's do this. Here's how you send bills. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Was that you or was that Ben behind the scenes? I did it all. You did all the stuff. I did all the things. He was just doing his regular day job. He was the income at that point. So, yeah, I was getting my measly little paychecks coming in. But, yeah, launched it.

13:32 And about a year in, I started to kind of talk to him seriously about, you know, the water's warm over here. Do you think you might want to come do this or at least see what it's like? And then Ben started dabbling. I think he had just a couple clients to start. Right. I'd see two or three people on Monday nights. That was it. That was your gap in your schedule. Just moonlighting. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. Just help. It helped warm me up to the idea. Both of you guys hadn't really worked with kind of the general population much, right? So did you specialize right away in anything or was kind of whoever? And then kind of the depression and anxiety ended up being, especially with COVID Nation in 2020, it's like, oh, 70% of new clients are depression and anxiety.

14:22 Yeah. No, and that's really astute. I think we had a little bit of like our walls are up a little too high in terms of who we would see. It's like, oh, this cannot be like a residential treatment level. Yeah, you're a little scared of getting close to that. Clientele, and it turns out that's just rarely the case with the general public. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think when I started it, I was kind of getting a sense. I was getting the lay of the land and I was taking people that I was qualified to work with. But as I spent time with this diagnosis or that diagnosis, it was kind of like, you know, I think I think depression and anxiety is there's a need for it. And it's where I want to be. So, yeah, initially started broad and then kind of whittled into depression.

15:03 Anxiety is what you want to do. How did they find you? Like, what did that look like for you? You know, is it Facebook ads? Is it therapy today? You know, like, how does... We had like one of those car wash signs. Yeah, we hired a guy. It was Ben. We didn't pay him at all. Right. It was Ben. In the early days, we took insurance. I took insurance. That's how I started. Okay. Because going the insurance route is very safe. Like willingness to take insurance is... Because you always have a steady stream of referrals. Yeah. There's no effort that needs to be put into marketing because the insurance companies... know that you have openings so they just send people to you so we started i started with insurance and basically it's a nightmare taking insurance as a clinician is a nightmare um i had to hire somebody to kind of fill that role of dealing with the insurance companies and doing collections and it's that's income out of your pocket.

16:00 I mean, it's just... And it's super slow. You never know when you're going to get paid. The mistakes that the insurance company would make and then not pay you. One half of what they should have, but it's going to take 90 days and three hours on the phone to get the other $23. Swish, that's exactly it. Yeah, that's exactly it. And after they would pay you correctly like eight times in a row, then there'd just be this mistake and nothing changed. Nothing changed in your codes. So setting up systems to figure that out a little bit was probably part of it. Or you just get out. You don't take insurance anymore. So then, yeah, basically at one point I was like, this is affecting clients. You know, instead of me being able to concentrate on their treatment plans and what to do – I'm spending time hunting down payments and correcting mistakes that these insurance companies made.

16:42 So it didn't really align with our values as a company. Can you kind of say you can do your insurance? It's cash pay and you can get reimbursement from your insurance provider? Is that an option? It's an option. Most people are like, fuck it. There's some of that. They don't want to navigate it, but the insurance only pays a portion of it. I have a more intriguing question that the economist brain in me came up with. So you've served both of those marketplaces. My theory is that people that are paying it out of their own pocket might try harder and get better faster than people whose insurance companies are paying for it. It's a well-observed phenomenon. When you have more skin in the game, you tend to invest more of yourself in the process.

17:25 So yeah, I would say that that's true to a degree. That's surprising. One of the coolest things they taught us, and I mean this was like the thimble of economics they taught us in counseling graduate school, was they were saying like you can see someone on a sliding scale, right, which you would ethically do, right? Yeah. If someone really needs to. You want to be a barrier. Yeah. But they go, you never charge nothing. Because even if it's just a dollar, right, that might be a real amount of money that it helps them invest in the process. When I first wanted to start Loco Think Tank, I just wanted to pull it together. My buddy was like, dude, your attendance is going to be terrible if nobody's paying anything to be public. Right. Yes. Yeah. And your quality control. That too. Yeah. Yeah. And same goes, I imagine, when they're invested in their own pursuit.

18:06 Otherwise, I'm sure some people with the most voluptuous insurance plans, like they're just lazy. Like they show up. Yeah. And that's it. They don't really, because it takes work, right? Right. Whatever you're facing. So can we like do some practical like anxiety? Oh, wait, well, we'll come back to the story with, with Ben joining the firm, but like some practical anxiety, depression things, you know, I know that I've had anxiety seasons, maybe not some depression perhaps over time, but not as much of that, but definitely anxiety where I just like anxious and, and whatever, like what are like, Do you have to like dig into root problems and my childhood stories and stuff to get that?

18:50 Yeah. How long is this podcast? Yeah. We have more time, yeah? Yeah. No, you're talking to the right folks. Like for me, I do yoga, for example, like at least three times a week. And for me, that's one way of kind of getting out of my rat brain and into Zen brain for a little while, right? Yeah. Yeah. Let's, I mean, since we're here for a while, I'll give you the semi-long answer. And I'm not trying to have you drive yourself away from future business so everybody can just fix themselves. But even recognizing when it's time to pick up the phone and call instead of, you know, kind of just working to chill a little bit more and taking a little time off. Yeah, like versus to struggle on.

19:31 Right. Yeah. So practically speaking – and we'll introduce a little bit of what we do here. So Lindsay and I both work from a cognitive behavioral therapy basis, CBT. And like I have – this is one of the funnest parts of my job. I should have brought the handout. But I have just a simple handout with two diagrams on it. that we go through with, with all of our new clients and, you know, not like day one new, but just like, okay, we're getting underway with our goals here because the ability to see these patterns is, is everything. You cannot interrupt a pattern that you don't understand. And I think it was, it was younger. One of the early folks was like, you know, Until you understand, you know, until – what did he say? Until you make the unconscious conscious, you know, it will dictate to you and you will call it fate.

20:12 Yeah, yeah. Right? So we're trying to work that process a little bit. But one of the simple principles on the CBT diagram, it's just a triangle. And at each point of the triangle, it says, you know, respectively, thoughts, feelings, behavior. It's like, okay. And what we're trying to take away is everything on this triangle influences each other equally. Right? So how you think influences how you feel, but how you feel also influences how you think. And it's like, don't take my word for it. This just, this works out in real life. Yeah, and act. We study a thing called Hallows relational intelligence, and it's kind of built on that triangle of think, feel, act. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Logical intelligence, emotional intelligence, and relational. Totally. It's funny. So much of this is like borrowed out of philosophy and things like that.

20:58 But the big takeaway here is like, okay, so you're describing at the start of this, like, okay, I want to, you know, I'm feeling a little anxious and I want to feel differently. The curious thing about people is we don't just directly modulate how we feel. Yeah. Right. If I'm like, Kurt, just turn down the anxiety. Just make it 10% less. Right. Right. It's like, yeah, Ben, I would have done that some time ago. Like, yeah, yeah. Thank you. So, but so, so what we're trying to figure out here, it's like, okay, how do we change how we feel? And what's implied in that triangle diagram is what we do control the other two elements of it. Right. I can control what I think and I can control what I do. What we think is somewhat spontaneous, but we can totally control it as well. So that's where it becomes cognitive behavioral therapy. And that's kind of part of evolving a bit is intentionally controlling what you think.

21:40 And part of that is putting different things inside your head. Yes. Yes. So everything funnels down between one of those two methodologies, right? You're either going to act or do something differently, yoga, right? Or you're going to change your thinking. And the thinking part is usually the pretty untapped part to people. Most people know like, oh, I need to get it together. Or if I need to get up early and go for a run and all that's behavior change, you can get great things from that. We have almost no public discourse on like, what does the thinking mean? How do we do that? How do we do that better? Yeah. Yeah. And there's patterns and thought that get established with anxiety. So like people will catastrophize. They go to the worst case scenario. They do probability over estimation where the worst thing is 100% going to happen. Totally right.

22:21 They do tunnel vision where other possibilities. Nope, that's not going to be a thing. We work with those patterns to challenge them and get people to relate to these situations differently so that way the anxiety decreases. Almost, I've been taught some stuff. Gosh, it was a guy with a group forever ago. But it wasn't like the ninja selling, but it was like getting up in the balcony and kind of... trying to be an observer of your own self a little bit in the situation at hand. And so I imagine that sounds a little bit like what you're trying to encourage, is trying to take an outsider's perspective on some of the things they're doing.

23:02 Because it manifests in... actions that are like, that's how they recognize the need to come to counseling. A lot of times it's because they're doing things or maybe, maybe it's just not sleeping or whatever, but probably more likely they're doing things like snapping at their roommate or their husband or whatever. And avoidance, too, especially with anxiety. When we look at that pattern of how you think, feel, and behave, with anxiety, our reflexive action is to avoid. And that gets people into trouble and messes with their functioning. Yeah. We have a phrase or a theme here at Local Think Tank because we're getting into – I call what we do basically like two-parts board meeting and one-part support group.

23:43 Yeah. And one of our kind of values is confront the dragon. Mm-hmm. Like, if you leave that dragon there, he's just going to keep getting bigger and bigger, you know? And so be brave and confront it. We make real boogeymen out of things we refuse to look at. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Circle back. So you're like, so you talk to Ben. He's starting to pick up two, three shifts a week on Mondays, if I recall. Yeah. And you're like, oh, this is actually pretty fun. Yeah. Or. Yeah. It was something I had to get back in touch with a little bit. Um, cause I was in a management role and you know, there's, I'm, you weren't even working with clients much anymore.

24:24 Yeah. Or you were supervising and. Precisely. Yeah. I was supervising a lot of our direct care staff and, you know, it required some disciplinary things with, with patients in the program, but, um, it was like, yeah, I got to like, okay, do you forget how to ride the bike? No. Okay. Uh, we're, we're, we're good. So it was just, you know, it was a muscle I had to dust off a little bit. Yeah. And I think it was the end of 2019. I was like, okay, this is a good place to just call it. You know, just the years winding down. I think some things were wearing on me at that job. And there was just something about – Your new boss sucked. What's that? Your new boss sucked. The new boss sucked. That's what we believe. Yeah. I mean I think at the old job in particular, it was just – holding people accountable was exhausting.

25:09 It wasn't the relationship I wanted to be having. I wanted to be having just generally positive friendships. you know, experiences and interactions with people. So it was time for something else. And we made the leap not knowing. Right. Massive uptick in demand for services. Yeah. So were you like six months later, you're both full just about. Oh yeah. Or I guess talk to me about, do you guys have kids too? Yeah. No, no. No kids. No kids. Well, that's why I was selling Ben on International Exchange students. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't mention that. So we can talk about that more later. Yes. So you guys are like, let's set the stage for you. Were you private practice in your home? Did you rent an office that you were meeting patients in and stuff?

25:52 Yeah. Always had an office space. Yes. Okay. Yep. We started off- Even from the start. Even from the start. Yeah. My office was so tiny. It was, you know, a broom closet essentially. And then when you started seeing people, you were kind of taking over slots where I wasn't working. Yep. And then in 2019, I transitioned to a lovely office, a lot more space. And then you came in full time and were able to get a office in that same office suite and Um, but yeah, by about the time you were coming in, I, I was, I was full cause I had been at it for a while. Yeah. And then with Ben, we did this weird thing where we were like, no, let's not have you take insurance. Cause we were trying to go that route. Oh, cause you were still taking insurance. Yep. And I was seeing how terrible it was and I was like, let's save you from that.

26:33 But then Ben wasn't filling up all that quickly, even though it was COVID. And so then we kind of freaked out and we're like, no, you should be on insurance. So we did this like in out thing. And then ultimately like the second you got paneled with a couple of insurance people, companies, we were like, no, let's end those. So we did the hokey pokey. We put our right foot in. We took it out. Well, you know, that's part of like small failures that you can afford financially with business as part of the learning process. Yeah. It's a good point. Like how else would we have known any of this? You just have to venture out there and see if it's for you. Yeah. Try it. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. COVID was interesting. And I might have a little different memory than you. It was like, um, yeah.

27:15 Things actually got really quiet around March when things were locking down and all that. Things were really quiet. And then it was like, uh-oh, it's the new guy at the practice. I'm like, is this – Well, you couldn't even meet with people. You had to Zoom right away and stuff, I imagine, right? We were one of the ordained businesses to stay open. Oh, you were? Okay. Essential. I was grateful for just getting out of my house if nothing else. Yeah. And a lot of our clients were too. They're like, I can see you in office. Yeah, yeah, I'll see you in office. Yeah. Yeah. I'll see you in office. Yeah. So it was kind of quiet for a little bit. And then we even see the seasonality today. And I think it was just like an unholy intersection of things then. When the days start getting shorter and it starts getting dark, people don't feel good.

27:57 And now people have just been like inside with their families. Well, that summer there was like Black Lives Matter riots. Yeah. And... A lot of political unrest. A lot of political unrest. It was pretty dicey. Yeah. There was a lot for people to process. Right. And I just – a lot of it was relational. It was kids just totally losing their footing in school. And I think some of the best relationship I ever – Well, the fear. Yeah. You know, the fear pushing on the media was – But it's like, if you're not vaccinated, we're going to face a winter of death. People were watching the death counters. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And there was a bit of like, it wasn't exactly falsifiable then.

28:39 People didn't know what to expect. People were dying. Yeah. Yeah. And it was. And I was on the Leonard County website with my friends going, look. 85, 79, 87, 91. Like trying to drop the fear level a little bit. It's like, dude, yes, it's dangerous, it's scary, but look at the numbers of the age. Because they had an age for every person that died. Right. Yeah. And that was probably a disservice to the public, right? They did not publicly, right, just underline. It's like, you know, a lot of the people passing away were older than life expectancy. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. So it goes. Yeah. So it goes. But that didn't peddle fear nearly as much. Yeah.

29:20 Anyway. Yeah. Who knows? I, you know, I think it was just a PSYOP to test our... willingness to resist. We'll see what happens next. But that's just me. I'm a tinfoil hat guy. Look, regardless how this happened, it was not good for people's mental health. No, exactly. Good for your business, though. Eventually. Yeah, yeah. It's not how you want, why you want the business to be good. But yeah, you know. There was a demand. It was accelerating a rapid rate by that time. Like by the fall of 2020. Oh my gosh, yeah. Through the fall of 2020. And then... It seemed like things were getting better in the spring of 2021 for quite a while. And then, oh, just kidding. Yeah. It was a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it, it, um, I think it's why we go, geez, was that six years ago?

30:04 And it's like, yeah, but the whole thing played out over a handful of years. Yeah. Yeah, it really did. Yeah. A couple anyway, nearly. So I guess you said it kind of like climbed steeply demand for services in general and in your practice. And then it just kind of stayed heavy. Are you taking new clients now? I guess hopefully some people get better. Yeah. And so you have to keep adding new ones anyway eventually. Yeah. Yeah, it was something of a blessing in disguise, right? For someone who was newly established and fledgling, right, to get new business was a blessing. Yeah, no, business has been steady. We are taking new clients. We do fix people sometimes, so we have fresh openings. We do.

30:44 What is an average engagement? Like is it a month? Or is it three months? Like is it once a week? Before we answer that, here's the other thing that happened. So we stopped taking insurance fully at some point. Please. And so the good thing about that is people then are in charge of their own treatment. So when you're taking insurance, the insurance company is saying what they think is an appropriate length of treatment for your person who's never met the client. They haven't had an assessment yet. So when somebody is just paying out of pocket, they have a lot of say in how long they stick around. And so Ben and I have very long-term clients that are seeing us for years. And it's not because they didn't get better. They just like the maintenance aspect. They like to do it proactively.

31:26 And they don't have an insurance company saying, well, you don't meet medical necessity, so we're not going to pay for this. So I've had clients for years. We have a shorter stints where people come in. They want to just hit it hard and get out and go live their life and then maybe pop back in for a session every once in a while. So it varies quite a bit. Well, I want to go back to Kurt's point a little bit too. Like it is a therapist's job to put themselves out of a job. Yeah. Like people should be getting better. They should be moving on. And, you know, we have people that see us for an acute period of time and they've resolved what they want to work on. And then we have our maintenance people too. But even our maintenance people, it's like your need to see us should be a whole lot less, a whole lot less. And just a good educational thing for the public, right?

32:06 Well, really just having a trusting conversation. Yes. You know, and seeing if there is anything there. Because sometimes one thing I'd like to say about Loco Think Tank, even years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, that you can kind of sometimes see yourself more clearly through the eyes of others. Like if you're willing to be around people and be honest in their presence, then they can see things that you just can't see. Right. Yes. That's so well said. And there's a thousand subtle little ways that therapy works that can be profound too. And it's like, yeah, just being – like having someone else bear witness to your experience that doesn't know your story. Yeah. Who's objective to you. It can be so illuminated. And hold that mirror up for them to see themselves.

32:47 Yes. That's one of our – Even for the positive side. Yeah, exactly. Like do you – like yes, you might be depressed. You know what I've seen in you? Your ability to relay people and events, your memory, your enthusiasm when you talk about animals, whatever those things are, when you can kind of just be real and honest with them in a way that can lift them up. Yeah, exactly. In a very objective way. Without fluffing their skirt. Right, right. Right. You can't really, that isn't the job. Right. Right, you're not a cheerleader. Yes, exactly. Well said. You kind of are, I suppose, right? I believe in you. You can do this work. I feel able to say that, but you have to be able to cite the evidence for it.

33:30 It isn't me just, what did you say, fluffing your skirt? Yeah. I mean, you want to be honest with people always. I often try to frame it through, you know, I want to say something positive I've noticed about you, but I'm not saying it to... be a cheerleader or to over inflate your ego. It's the, if I'm noticing it, other people probably notice it as well. And that's the bigger thing. Like, like who cares if your therapist likes you, right? Like, like you need to feel better about society in that. Most people do care. Well, probably to some degree. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to guess here that a lot of your maintenance clients were heavier duty right away.

34:11 Yes. I'm remembering it was relationship counseling during my early entrepreneurial years when I went from $90,000 income to zero income for business. longer than i would like to confess in this forum well i mean it's just the three of us right yeah just us um but there was some real problems with my self-confidence and stuff and you know kudos to jill for walking by me but like for quite a while we were at least every two weeks and maybe for a while like once a week you know and then after a couple few months it was like how about just once a month, you know, or that better and, you know, give us more time to work on the stuff, work between sessions and stuff.

34:55 You started talking a lot about the cognitive behavioral therapy. Is that what you said? Yes. It seemed like my understanding of that was like a little bit, helping people recognize even both the actions and that triangle that you were talking about. And in this case, like, hey, I've noticed this. And because I'm noticing this, other people will too. You're allowed to exercise that. Yeah. You're allowed to see yourself when you're getting defensive right away the first time anybody says anything close to a whisper of criticism. Like it would be better for you if you kept your ears open longer and your mouth closed and listen more because then you could actually learn more.

35:38 Right. And CBT actually goes a layer deeper and is like, well, what's your belief about that criticism? So if you're interpreting that criticism as I'm no good, they're just being a jerk, that's going to dictate how you feel. But if we can then objectively shift that belief to something more neutral, like, well, this person cares about me and they want us to be better. Well, then your reactivity is much less. So yeah. Yeah, it's also about like, what are these underlying beliefs fueling the negative emotions? Well said, yeah. I will leave my own examples on the table for the moment for fear of my life. Email us. Well, you also had a great observation, Kurt, about just being like an observer.

36:23 And I think that's a lot of what CBT is teaching people to do. It's like if you notice you're having a thought, you're noticing you're having a feeling, they don't dictate to you in the same way. It's like, I'm just feeling this right now. It doesn't require anything of me. It's just an experience. I'm told I get away with saying things that most people can't in a variety of ways. But one of my defenses is that just because I say something doesn't mean I think it. Right. I'm just floating it out there for some conversation items and seeing what other people think about me saying that thing. People struggle to understand that, right? Like we have to have a bad thought sometimes, right? Oh, yeah. To make sense, to get to what a good one is. Yes.

37:03 Well, and some of those thoughts are just, they're true. They're just not. Politically correct or whatever. Sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess we jumped off the train a little bit on the timeline, but really it's been kind of steady as she goes once you went full time and practice. And now let's get back to, and you've been thinking- maybe we should add somebody to the team. We got a harebrained scheme going now. We've been aware that in Fort Collins, one of the most, if not the most Googled term when it comes to searching for therapy is couples counseling or marital therapy.

37:46 So there is obviously a need for this. And since we both do individual, we thought, well, maybe it would be a good thing. we can diversify the services that we offer and add somebody with that specific skill set i'm going to ask a question i suspect uh so you you work with a lot of students and things like that and i suspect sometimes they're talking about their parents who are paying the bills in most cases and their marital troubles and stuff too is that is that an evidentiary element to this Yeah, they definitely bring it up. Divorces, just bad relationships. It's generally not, at least in my experience, it's not usually a focus of treatment, but it certainly can be.

38:27 But yeah, there's reference to those things for sure. Well, I'm sure that's like any... any reduction in stability is a risk factor, I would imagine, for that world, right? And so even if you're a 19- or 20-year-old college student and your folks are splitting up, that's an anxious thing. Yes. It's the stability and... Also kind of the template for what you're used to seeing in a relationship. This is where it does come up. We'll see patterns kind of repeated in the kids. You know, they never really saw what a healthy conflict resolution looks like. And so they just yell and scream at their partner. And then there's distress in that relationship. So people tend to kind of mimic what they've seen.

39:10 And so in my clients, that's more what we're working on. Or have no conflict at all. Yeah, or just avoid it. Conflict avoidance is all I've ever seen. Yep. Fair. Well, let's do, I guess, unless there's anything else you want to share about the future of Evolve, would there be like a next specialty that you would add down the road after relationships? I've got some ideas. Is that the way you would build your greater practice would be to kind of like have the core and then add more specialty focused people? Yeah, yeah. I think so. I think we're trying not to grow too fast. And, you know, we've had this ability to have utter quality control right now. And I think we're a little anxious to let go of that, which I think a lot of small business owners are.

39:53 But yeah, it's like, you know, can we can we start by adding one person that feels a lot like what we can offer, right? It's cut from the same cloth and just go from there. You know, gold not to be too big. And would they have to do all their own paperwork and administrative and stuff then? Or would you add an admin staff to the team soon after? Or how does that model work for a small firm? We could probably get away without. Yeah, Ben and I would do some of the admin staff. But yeah, there wouldn't be much for them. There's not that much for that role. A lot of things are you write your notes, you get paid. Exactly, that's it. We get paid, you get paid. Yep. Done and done. No one's writing my notes either. Right. Fair enough. Okay, well, if you guys are game, I'd like to zoom back to, like, Time Machine Land, five years old.

40:39 Who's older between the two of you? Oh, Kurt, you brought up a very sensitive topic. My birthday is August 12th. I was born in 1984. His birthday. August 31st, 1984. So I'm what? Not even three weeks older. I like it. Oh, but during those three weeks. But you're a Leo, and he's a- So different. Yes. You're a Virgo. Virgo, whatever that is. We don't really follow up astrology, but- I'm also a Leo. So, yes. Happy belated birthday. Thank you, thank you. Both of you as well. And so where were you, Lindsay? So I. Since you were born first chronologically. I grew up in Colorado Springs.

41:19 Okay. Born and raised. Yeah. Five years old. Just hanging out in the Springs, doing my thing. Family doing what? Yeah. So I grew up in a household. Parents, younger brother. Um, my parents are both engineers. They got their degrees here at CSU in civil engineering. Um, so how I turned out to be a therapist is just weird, but. Resistance against the mold. I was my defiance. Engineers like at the Air Force or engineers at like, uh, well, there was a number of different kind of tech forward companies down there. My dad is geotechnical. So he's a soils engineer. So you build a building, you need to make sure the soil isn't slipping around. So the building collapses. Yeah. My mom got her start in like water engineering. Hers is complicated.

42:00 I'm not great at explaining it, but yeah, civil stuff. So nerds, they were nerds. We give them shit that they were ingenierds. Don't learn that. But they, no, they're, they're very socially skilled and hilarious people. So it doesn't really fit that. And did you say a younger brother? Younger brother, yeah. Okay. Yeah, so he's three years younger than I. And then you're fairly tall. Yeah. Were you tall early, it seems possible? No, I didn't hit my growth spurt until high school. Oh, is that right? So pretty average. Interesting. But yeah, very athletic family. Okay. So grew up playing sports and super competitive with soccer and swimming. Good grades. Very good grades. My parents, they're smart cookies. They never put a ton of pressure. It was more self-induced for me.

42:41 And so, yes, very academically required. oriented and um getting those good grades that was important to me so yeah and then let's go to ben before we consider the college uh maybe you came up here i don't know i was in the far-off land of the mid-atlantic um yeah families from southwestern pennsylvania originally um i didn't live there very western that's like oil country and stuff right Yeah, coal. Yeah, coal in oil. Yeah, yeah, outside of Pittsburgh. Okay, yeah, yeah. Let's go Steelers. And yeah, my family moved to – what's that? I said I like the Steelers too. No. Just saying. We're just now figuring this out. Oh. My brother's a big Steelers fan.

43:22 I'm an adjacent. I'm going to go. Like, for me, it's the Vikings, Broncos, Patriots, kind of. What? I just like them. Very eclectic. And the Steelers. And the Steelers. You're from North Dakota? Correct. Yeah. So it's like, you know, Vikings are a likely leap. But then I guess you guys can kind of adopt. Yeah. Well, I've been living here for 20 years, 25 years almost. So Broncos are kind of adopted. I even like the Packers. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone but the Cowboys, man. Yeah, for sure. Anyway. Anyways. So, steal the country. So glad we got on that. Yeah. Yeah. Just working class family. Like, kind of different than Lindsay in that way. Like, you know, my dad was a general contractor for a living, but swung a hammer.

44:04 For a company, not his own firm. For his own firm. Oh, for his own firm. Yeah. So you had an entrepreneurial background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And again, models and templates you grow up around definitely had an influence. Like doing remodels and stuff or building whole houses or kind of whatever? He did at least one of everything. Yeah, but he had whole home builds at points. But yeah, a lot of remodels, additions, but it could be – Everything from just a painting job or putting on a deck or I can go on. Jack of all trades. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And your mom worked or stayed watching you guys? Yeah, mom watched us initially and then would work later. Yeah, and she always found her way into jobs kind of just like adjacent like hospital support staff and things like that.

44:49 She was a phlebotomist. Uh, for a while. And it's so funny. Everyone goes, oh, how long did she have to go to school to do that? And you're like, two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Or something. Yeah. And even to this day, if, if, if you're in the, uh, uh, Prescott Valley hospital and you need a blood draw, you want Lori to do it. All right. She's the best stick. She finds the vein. Yeah. The Matthews House way back in the day had a phlebotomy training program after we merged with Education Life Training Center. Yeah. And so I don't know. It's a good game. It was probably more than two weeks. But to do it good is different. But here's a real skill, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You don't need tons of investment or time in college. Yep. Yep. And it's necessary.

45:30 Yeah. Needed. And my mom would later go back to school when I was in graduate school to become an RN. Oh, wow. Good for her. Yeah. Cheers, mom. And siblings for you? Yeah, one younger brother as well. Two years younger. Okay. But yeah, just – Also academically driven, athletic? Yeah. Yes. No, we definitely had like, you know, you need to get good grades, A's and B's. And, you know, that's generally what happened. Yeah. Athletic background as well. Started playing soccer and then found our way into hockey as we got older. Okay. You're talking about you and your brother? Yep. Yep. And if anyone knows my brother, he's a mountain of a man. He's like 6'5 and, you know, well over 200.

46:11 Really? If this guy puts you in the glass, like I was so glad we were just on the scene. How old were you when he passed you size-wise? That's the question. A long time ago. A long time ago. Like when he was 11. Way before. Way before. So we were probably about the same height when I was like seven or eight. And then it was just, you know. And that's so hard when you're young. It's like your little brother is bigger than you. And you can't take it. You can't take it. Was that troublesome to you? Like anxiety-inducing, depression? I mean, you know, I got by. Okay. You had enough other attributes. When you have the ego of a child, right? No, it's an interesting thing, I'm sure. Yeah, you tie like, well, I'm supposed to be better in all ways because I'm older and more knowledgeable.

46:55 Right. You know, you get down the road and two years doesn't mean anything to anybody. For sure. Interesting. So let's go back to you, Lindsay, to the, am I going to college? Where am I going? Like, what was your setting at the time? Yeah. At the end of high school? I always knew I was going to college. That was pretty important to my parents. Sure. And there was never really a discussion of, like, you're just going to go work after high school. No. College was always the thing. My journey is maybe a little different. So growing up, very much participating in competitive soccer. And so I was actually recruited. So I decided to go to the University of Northern Colorado on a scholarship. Well, it was actually, yeah, it was academic and athletic scholarship.

47:37 So that's how I ended up there. And we're going to go to the University of Northern Colorado. played soccer for a mighty three games into my freshman year tore my acl for the first time so um but yeah that's how i decided college it was more athletic based than anything yeah And did you stay there for your full education? Yeah, finished out my undergraduate degree at UNC, and then they had a really well-renowned clinical counseling program at the time, and so just hung out there. And did you move up there, lived on campus? What was that, like, I'm kind of Fort Collins famous, but really less so. Tell me about arriving on campus, and what was the...

48:18 The scene, like, so I'm a North Dakota State graduate. So back in my college days, we were actually rivals with UNC in Division II football. Yeah, UNC, just being a little bit smaller, I didn't find it to be particularly overwhelming, but... Yeah, pretty typical in terms of the academics, the campus, the house parties. I mean, I don't think there's anything necessarily too remarkable. Not that much different than my experience in Fargo or somebody else's in Fort Collins. And I spent a ton of time here in Fort Collins. A lot of my high school friends went to CSU. So I was up here in Fort Collins a lot. Fair. I consider myself an honorary man. You might have slept on some dorm floors and stuff like that here and there. Maybe every once in a while.

48:58 Fair. And how about you, Ben? What was that setting or stage for you at the moment? Yeah, yeah. No, there was definitely an expectation from my family that I'd go to college and there was like, you know, hey, we didn't have the college experience. We want that for you. Yeah. I chose it was a little private school and like kind of. Appalachia, Virginia. Okay. It's called Bridgewater College. It's like 1,500 students. Oh, I've heard of it actually. No kidding. Yeah. And yeah, just – and definitely a big part of my decision to go to a school that size, it really was the size. Like I was a pretty socially anxious kid, just kind of shy and I was like, how am I going to do – Because your little brother was bigger than you all those years. Oh my god. What did you want me to do? Yeah.

49:40 So it was like that felt way more approachable than like, yeah, I'm going to go to some 30,000 student body. So that helped. And I grew a lot there. And it's funny. I talk to people all day long now. Right. Despite being reserved in my youth. Yeah. And what turn of events led to you guys finding each other? I guess you came out to Colorado was the most important thing, huh, Ben? That's true. Yeah. We knew each other in graduate school but weren't romantically involved then. Okay, so you came out here for graduate school to UNC? Yep. Yeah. Do I tell the whole story or do I? Sure. Yeah, okay. Scandalous. Yeah. I had a long-term college girlfriend. Oh.

50:20 Yeah, spoiler alert, didn't work out. But nice person. Because you found this beautiful blonde. It was nothing scandalous like that. Okay. But the galley dating. Long-term relationship are hard. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And just like you're evolving and becoming another person into your mid-20s. It's like, OK, I think this is real adult me and some of that social anxiety is going away and this stuff is sorting itself out. So – but she studied Southwest archaeology. So if it weren't for that, I was following her. Down to Arizona or New Mexico or something. Or Colorado. Yeah. So those were basically the three places we could have ended up. Fair. Yeah. So if it weren't for that, I wouldn't live here.

51:01 And yeah, funny enough, like it didn't work out. She went back east and I'm still here. And then? Yeah. Yeah. So in grad school, I was actually with somebody else as well. But Ben and I had some group projects together. We were always, you know, fond of each other, knew each other, but never hung out. But after we had both graduated, maybe a year after that, my mom was telling me, Lindsay, you need to try online dating. You need to give this a go. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not doing it. You're like, let's build your profile. Exactly. I was like, oh, it's happening. Okay.

51:41 And this is, you know, not in its infancy, but not as prolific as it is now. Have you ever seen that video where it shows, like, how people met their spouse? Like, over time? Yeah. Yeah. And, like, online dating is, like, this little thing, and then it's like, boo. And nobody barely meets them through family or at bars or other ways anymore. See, we were pioneers. Yeah, you were pioneers. We got my profile built, and my friend's like, let's look at the local talent in Fort Collins. So we just start perusing these profiles, and Ben's picture pops out. And she was in our graduate program, too. And so we're like, is that Ben? Ben? Is that Ben? And so we're staring at it, and we're like, no, that's definitely Ben.

52:22 You swipe right? Yeah. Oh, it wasn't Tinger yet. Just kidding. I sent him an email a couple of days later. I was like, hey, man, what's, how, how, how's life treating you? What are you doing after school? It sounds like you broke up with your longtime, long-term sister, man. It must not have worked out. I should send her a fruit basket for dragging you out here. It's, it's one of those karmic things, right? I probably would have just stayed somewhere nearby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we went on a date. I thought we were just like catching up. I wasn't really intended to be anything romantic, but we got along great. Well, what is a first date, right? I mean, we're just catching up, right? Yeah. Well, if you're looking for a long-term relationship, you're probably hoping not to get lucky.

53:05 On the first date. Right. And it wasn't really those kind of profiles available at the time. Yeah, yeah. So it introduced you to someone I already knew. Yeah. Very cool. Uh-huh. And how long before it was, like, confirmed a serious relationship headed somewhere? Yeah. Geez. We were dating about four years when I proposed. Oh, wow. We took our sweet time. Yeah. Just because you were scared she was going to say no. Yeah, and she might find out my brother's taller than me. It's totally it. That's awesome. Well, I, for what, am glad that you found each other. And how long, when did you get married? 2015. Okay.

53:45 So you just passed 10. You're coming up on 11 shortly. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank. Loco Think Tank provides peer collaboration for business owners. We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with. Our model features gift-back-minded business veterans in the role of Loco facilitators, And we're always looking for abundance-minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, local community, or to feature on this podcast. Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free. Just mention the Loco Experience podcast on your application.

54:27 To learn more, visit our website at locothinktank.com. That's L-O-C-O thinktank.com. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of trends in... Like therapy counseling and stuff about like ketamine stuff and Ibogaine and mushroom trips and journeys. Yes. Especially for very, very traumatic stuff it seems like is where that's really at. But what's your counseling professional's perspective on that kind of engagement? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's moving – it's on the move as we're understanding it, right? We're practicing it.

55:09 The jury is very – Being defined as we talk, as we speak. And we're not prescribers of any sorts, so it's here nor there. But we've definitely had clients that are like, yeah, I want to do something psychedelic-assisted. And we usually have them do that with someone that facilitates that. Like, again, we believe in specialization. You encourage them to – Yeah. Yeah. I got this guy, Joe, that grows mushrooms. So cool. They are it. But yeah, there's kind of this idea of these experiences can help just separate from the ego a little bit. You know, an ego quickly defined as anything you say, I dot, dot, dot, which can be a positive or a negative sentiment. But of course for – For matters of trauma and things like that, of course, it tends to be a more negative belief about the self.

55:53 So it's like, yeah, we can get a little distance from that. And we were talking earlier about like you want to have that view. You want to observe things, right? And sometimes the wound is so deep it's hard to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The research is still very new on this as it stands now. as far as I'm aware, the FDA has only approved ketamine for really, really severe depression and suicidality. Okay. Everything else is not FDA approved. There's clinical trials and there's research emerging, but what's actually FDA approved is very, very limited. Gotcha. So there are these clinics popping up right and left, and there's a lot of interest in this, but the research backing...

56:35 juries out there's some preliminary stuff that looks promising but anecdotally i i've had clients that have used psilocybin or they've done ketamine and they've had really negative experiences so i think i think it's mixed results and we need to we need to know more yeah yeah not to generalize that but right you know yeah it's not always like i was kind of surprised uh former texas governor rick perry was on somebody's podcast like rogan or lex friedman or something talking about I want to say it was the Ibogaine stuff. Yeah. And getting that some level of like federal approval for that kind of thing. I was like, wow, that's wild. Because he was like kind of a right winger back in the day. Sure. Right? And that has become the party of we don't do weird shit.

57:17 Right. Since Nixon. Right. Yeah. Right, right. Very, very buttoned down. Right, right. Exactly. Traditionally. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think Trump just signed something on psilocybin to study it further. I mean, it's interesting in the sense of becoming more mainstream and kind of like a, well, if this is medicinal and helpful, then cool, let's look into it. And even Cheech and Chong were like, man, I know some people that took too many asses, man, and they, you know, it ain't good. Right. I don't remember the exact one. They didn't come back. They didn't come back. Yeah, they stayed there. Yeah, yeah. No, so it's probably like a lot of substances, right? It can be used at a therapeutic level, can be overused. Yeah. How about something else on the technology front, like AI counselors?

57:58 Like my AI therapist said I shouldn't even meet with you guys. Well, fire, not AI therapist. I mean, I have to think it's a little bit of a threat for your industry, kind of. Because they can read every note that's ever been taken and published in any kind of not appropriate way because HIPAA should prevent all of that. Right, right. Open eye, don't give a shit about no confidentiality anyway. Should is a funny word. Right. Right. All the copyrighted books that they've been feeding through it and destroying as masterpieces. Yeah. I digress. It's a good – we'll get it recorded here. We'll see how well this ages. It's like I definitely feel less worried than other industries because the foundation of a relationship – excuse me, of counseling is that relationship.

58:41 You were just saying like the person you visited with for so long, it was hard to just be like – I can't see you anymore. I want to keep coming in. At least talk out a few things with you. Right. My counselor is yoga with Adrienne now. She's so interesting. Perfect. Yes. And so, you know, I think there's always going to be that niche for it. But, yeah, there very well could be just kind of AI counselors or bots in the future that could be very helpful for just screening or, you know, basic reflective statements. Sure. Yes, and. But the basis of AI. Sometimes they hallucinate, too. It's like worse than a mushroom trip. Yes. there's a lot of like agreeance built into AI. Oh, right. They always fluff your skirt. They are skirt fluffer extraordinaires. And so if you're really wanting to do real therapy, just having a robot agree with you, I don't know how helpful that's actually going to be.

59:28 Yeah. No, you should have another bump. It'll help you prepare for this date better. This will be the one. Right. Just one more. Yeah. Thank you, Lindsay. Yeah. So I don't think the way they're set up is... Who knows where it goes in the future, but... We're probably all screwed in the long run anyway. That's a really good point because you have this problem of like, to what extent do we want AI to be disagreeable? Right. And it's like in general, you don't. Right, right. But in therapy, that's very helpful. Right, right. Speaking the truth is not always easy, but it does have to be trained, I imagine. Is that one of the harder things to learn? Like it's how to confront people with their lies to themselves?

1:00:10 do you maybe initially yeah now i'm so blunt i'm just losing friendships the skill of it you can learn it's just you know how do you address something with tact but like the emotional piece of it of like oh i'm gonna challenge what they say and this might not go well like that i think think is harder to deal with. Well, they're doing it in such a way that they actually receive it well. Exactly. That's the real skill, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that your experience of it? Like there's maybe that reflexive like, oh, this might be weird. I think you and I are a little different that way. I don't, it's, it's, I think I've just done it to the point I've desensitized myself and, and I have my little run up things.

1:00:55 This is one of my best little therapist skills that anyone can borrow. But if you need to ask someone a hard question, ask them if you can ask them a hard question. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. You know, Kurt, can I ask you something personal? Well, and not to like say things that are inappropriate, but Ben, you talked already about having kind of some social anxiety stuff. Yeah. You've got a little bit of a, like Elon Musk just says whatever he, things kind of way about you a little bit like people kind of maybe expect that kind of frashness from your personality a little more forward maybe yeah a little more direct well and i think your your background too i mean you were saying all i did for nine years was hold people accountable right yes yes i'm still unlearning yeah but but that's what i'm learning yeah but but that's it's not a bad thing.

1:01:36 Well, it's a good thing. Yeah. Cause not every counselor is the best for every person. Well, this isn't me doing, people need somebody to just like, be like, Hey dude, it's time for you to quit being a sissy or whatever. No, no, no. It's just clear. Right. This isn't me doing therapy right now. Right. This is me hanging out with you guys. Right. But it's, but yeah, no, it's, it's just, I, I don't, I don't feel, I don't think I feel it the same way you do. Yeah. Maybe because I've had so much more exposure to it. I use a lot of tact when I'm I'm sure you do. Yeah. And, you know, I suspect that your style is a little more direct sometimes, perhaps, than Lindsay's. Could be. On average, if I had a guess. Not night and day, but yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you want to jump into the purpose-driven questions?

1:02:19 Thank you to Purpose Driven Wealth of Thriven for sponsoring our purpose-driven questions segment. At Purpose Driven Wealth, they believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose. Their mission is to help guide clients using a values-driven, stewardship-based approach focused on provision, contentment, and enjoyment. With more than a century of experience, Thriven helps individuals and families navigate life and business transitions and prepare for the future while creating space to live generously and give back in meaningful ways. To learn more about Purpose Driven Wealth, please call 970-330-7411 for a complimentary initial consultation.

1:03:00 And now, on to the questions. Ooh, let's do it. These are provided in part with the support from Purpose Driven Wealth Management in Windsor, one of our longtime local think tank members. Well, I like this one for you because we haven't really gotten too much in the background, but what's the source of your internal compass when it comes to ethical decision making? Like ethics is thick in your industry and what are your, what are your anchor points? Uh-huh. I mean, there's the actual training that you get on ethics and counseling. Yeah, the compliance handbook stuff. Yeah, exactly. And then it's kind of great. Like, there's a lot of wiggle room in there in terms of, like, well, how do you interpret this?

1:03:45 And is this always wrong or is this okay? Overall, I would say you and I are fairly conservative when it comes to ethics and we don't like to push the envelope. And I think that's just a temperament thing. I mean, that might be what drives our compass is just not being risk averse. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it could be part of it. But I think for me, it's kind of a gut felt sense. Like, yeah. Yeah. Like, what is that for you? the gut piece of it yeah if it feels icky yeah right check yourself yeah and the cool thing that we can do too is communicate about ethical issues with each other so it's nice to have a sounding board to be like hey am i off base on this so like we we end up consulting a lot on that and uh kind of checking it out with each other and other therapists.

1:04:35 Like, obviously, within Confidentially Confines and stuff, but do you guys ever talk to each other about, hey, I'm struggling with this particular case and stuff? Because it's hard to live in a vacuum, right? Right, exactly. Yep, we can consult with each other. We each have friends that are therapists, so I think that... ethical piece kind of comes from community as well when you're talking to other therapists across each other exactly yeah it's important to have someone in my off base here you know yeah yeah fair enough yeah so yeah therapists can do that What, uh, talk to me about like a major challenge that you've had or a major positive thing, a life event, but what, what do you find the, the thing you'd lean on?

1:05:21 Is it, is it relationships? Is it spirituality? Is it finances? Is it your intelligence? Like what's your, your real foundation for strength in a hard time? Yeah. I think I'll let you think because I have an idea. For me, I just have this ability and I kind of phrase it in my head when I'm going through something hard as just keep going, just keep marching forward, just keep one foot in front of the other, just one more day. Like I have this very perseverance, resolve. I don't know what exactly to call it, but You know, there were times at the hospital that I was working at and I was just like, this is a lot. Do I want to do this? And it's like, well, just do another day.

1:06:03 And when you kind of march forward with that, then other things start to illuminate themselves. Yeah, if you show up every day. Exactly. Life is easier. And at the beginning of this practice, it was like, just keep doing it. Just keep going. Let's see where this goes. So that's what I rely on for me is just march ahead. Keep going. Yeah, it's similar. I think it's something I've even learned just through the process of our work is like, like be grateful for the struggle, right? This is here to teach you something and do your best to internalize that and see what it is. Yeah, and I don't know, I think I rely a lot on just my routines, you know, things that support me. I use a lot of exercise, like this is how I constitute myself before work.

1:06:46 It's like, hey, I got to be, you know, yeah, yeah, so. Leaning into those things, just the things that you know that work. For sure. Do that. Talk to me about legacy a little bit. My wife and I are similar in that we're a long time married, no children. You know, you got your business. I got local think tank and stuff. But like when you think about 10 years, 20 years down the road, what does legacy mean for you? Is that even part of growing the practice so that it would live on? Yeah. Or yeah. Talk to me about your notions there. Yeah. All those clients that you've helped over the years, is that like feed your legacy bucket? Yeah, I think so.

1:07:26 I think we really want to just offer like the best experience to people when they come in for therapy. And so all of the lives that we've, you know, touched or been instrumental in, like we really do. get satisfaction from that. I don't know about you, but I've been kind of reflecting on this lately. And now that, you know, the practice is good. It's stable. I've been starting to think about, okay, so now that I've got a little more bandwidth these days, what else do I want to do with myself? Is that getting involved more with the community? Is that volunteer work? Is that, some other avenue to pursue a board member somewhere yeah exactly yeah so i'm just now starting to really give that serious consideration so i would say i'm kind of in the infancy of well feel welcome i enjoy those kind of conversations if you want to have an hour with me we can talk a little bit about where your skills and abilities might be best utilized yeah yeah do you have thoughts about legacy yeah Yeah, probably not as many as I need to.

1:08:24 Yeah. Just think about tomorrow, baby. Exactly. Sorry. No, no. What's for dinner? I really do. I try to think of like what just what makes life meaningful to me in general. And then it's like do – Do as much of that as you can. And that is meaningful conversations. So I might be in the right job. And the fact that I get to have all these relationships with people and have a formative influence on their life, it's huge. Yeah. And that's plenty. I think if that's all I ever did, that would be enough. You know, I have a podcast idea for you guys. Yeah.

1:09:05 There's probably some ethical fraughtness, but if you just had like live counseling sessions with people, they would have to sign like it's okay. Yeah. I might start doing it actually just – I've actually been doing it this whole time. No, just kidding. This is a pilot. This is a pilot right here. No, but – Like, it might be kind of intriguing where it would be, like, for all those, like, for all the uptick in demand, what percentage of Americans or maybe northern Coloradoans have never been a counseling at all? That's a great question. Yeah. Don't have the hard math on that, but it's still a number. Or someone went once and they had a negative experience.

1:09:45 50%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've done, let's see, three consultations in the last week. One of them had never been in contact with a therapist or done therapy. I think that's pretty normal. Maybe like a third to a half of people have ever. Yeah. Just guessing. So there's still significant untapped marketplace out there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had that thought too. And of course, yeah, there's, you gotta have your, your paperwork tidy. HIPAA would freak out. Yeah. But these things have kind of been done. Like, I don't know if you ever caught like a love line back in the day. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Adam Crowley, Dr. Drew. So, uh, what's it, uh, what's it? Dr. Phil. Yeah. That was basically a counseling.

1:10:25 Yeah. So, yeah, I mean. A little more in the fringe. Right. That's fair. Yeah, you know, it's more like yelling at people in six-minute segments between commercials. But I... I like that idea because I think it would serve as a model to so many people. And I've had so many just excellent conversations with clients. It's like, if I could just bottle it and let other people see this. Yeah. That one seven-minute snippet especially. Yeah. People would just go – They just really found that nugget that unlocked all the future stuff a lot easier. Yes. So many conversations I have that just pertain to so many people. It's intriguing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we'll do... I don't know. Are we going to bring back like late night call-in?

1:11:05 Kind of show. Have like your favorite... Actually, maybe that's it. Maybe it's Evolve Live. Hello, caller. Evolve After Dark. With Lindsay and Vin. Is this just Frasier? Or are we just doing Frasier? Oh, it might be, yeah. Well... You know, this is Northern Colorado's version, though. Yeah. Or Frasier. Or Frasier. Actually, I guess that new building that's going up downtown there, the old Lyric? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Is going to be headquarters to the KRFC. Okay. So the community radio station's got some fat new digs. Interesting. Courtesy a la Pat Stryker and the Bohemian Foundation, I presume. Oh, yeah. But yeah, that could be like a KRFC late night for community health.

1:11:46 That'd be great. interesting. Right, is actually to have that kind of stuff. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Call in, there's a level of anonymity. Yeah, exactly. You can only use fake names and stuff. Yeah, what are we doing between 9 and 11? Yeah, 9 and 11. Maybe it's just once a week. Right. Are you ready to try the crazy ginger hot sauce? Let's do it. Okay, these chips are preloaded with the crazy ginger. Okay. Feel brave. And then you guys get those. I'll be right back after getting this set up for the Whizcal samples.

1:12:29 Okay. I think I made a mistake by sprinkling the hot sauce like three minutes ago because it kind of settled into the chips. Oh, it's still there. It's still there. That's nice, Kurt. That's Paul. Paul at Matador Mexican Grill. Thank you, Paul. Yeah, that's great. Well done. That's pretty light. Here, wait. I got a little scoop. All right. Okay. Got those ones right there. The freshies on it.

1:13:09 Yeah. Ooh. That'll be fine. That's chomping into the mic. No, you can make it chomp. It's fine. Is it ASMR? Mm-hmm. I'm doing a version of that, like an aggressive version. Are you guys into that kind of techie stuff? No. ASMR. No. Yeah. It's interesting. It really is just like a mindfulness practice. Yeah. I get why people like it. Yeah. Yeah. Best way to be mindful is just through your senses. So it's like here's me tapping on the microphone cover right now. Please never do that again. No? You don't like my NPR? Here's me breathing heavy into your ear. That's right. It's not weird at all. I'm acting like I just climbed a steep peak at 10,000 elevation.

1:13:56 That's right. Very heavy for you. To your goodness. It must be the lack of oxygen. Yeah. All right. And this is the WizCal? This is the WizCal. Thank you. Thank you to Seed and Spirit Distilling. Soon, maybe less than a month away, they will be opening their new tasting room and oyster bar at the former Funkworks location. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. And they have the most local best stuff. I don't really recommend shooting it. It's too tasty for that. Yeah, I got to save it. We'll just do a salute from distance. Cheers, guys. And the tasting notes on that would be fine as well. So this is whiskey and tequila.

1:14:38 Mezcal. Mezcal. And whiskey, kind of a hybrid spirit. Interesting. With those two core ingredients. Smoky. I'm starting to get sweaty from the hot sauce. Uh-oh. You're glowing. Ben might be getting a little... Oh, I was feeling it too. Kurt's pressure cooker. Right. Oh, just wait. We're not even loco yet. Any tasting notes that you'd like to share? You like the smoky? Smoky. Yeah. You're not really a straight spirit scale except for like vodka tonics. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I can't talk about this in a sophisticated way, but it tastes a bit like barbecue. Yeah.

1:15:18 The mezcal is very forward. Oh, yes. Yeah. I get that. Mezcal forward. Mezcal forward. Yeah. Yeah. Most prominent. Yeah. I think that's a good compliment. It tastes like a barbecue. Yeah. Like barbecue is good. Yes. Well, it's supposed to be. It's smoked, right? Yeah. Very tasty. So I'm thinking because there's two of you and you've both got chapters before each other, his, hers, and theirs on the loco experience. Do you have that many crazy stories? Do you have a his story, her story, and a together story? Or do you just have one crazy story together? I got one for the theirs. Oh, okay. Good, because I got nothing. You're both risk averse.

1:16:00 Yeah. We had to think of it just for that reason. We were like, yeah, let's... This one time we said yes to appearing on the Local Experience podcast. This is our craziest experience. And WizCal. Right. No. I don't think that's the craziest story of your life. No, probably not. We did have to think a little bit. We're like, okay. Ooh, can I go back to... Let's go back to work. I want to... So you have a theirs. I want to... And we've got individual ones. I want a hers and his. Yeah. But I want specifically from your work. Like you were inpatient hospital with the crazies. You were teen. Is it forbidden? Like you can tell a generic story, right? You can tell generic. We've got to keep it really generic.

1:16:41 Yeah. Worst we can say is no, but for confidentiality purposes. I mean, it's been a long time to write, like over 10 years. It doesn't matter. Really? Yeah. But none of these records are even public. It doesn't matter. If I say something identifiable to something, they don't need to get outed. This guy came into the hospital and he had shoved a pumpkin up his butt? Yep. That, mm-hmm. That. So if that made the news, then you could never share that. Exactly. Or whatever if it was – okay. Well, we don't have to do that. I'm trying to think in generalities. I can talk in generalities about my work and that gives you some time. Yeah, if you've got some time. Yeah, because I worked with a lot of kids that had committed sexual offenses. Right. You know, kind of like not – Boys mostly, right? It was all boys facility.

1:17:22 All. Okay, sure. All boys. All boys. So – and – you know, it may not surprise you. It's like just their boundaries around sexuality and their bodies and all that. We're just kind of different. Not, not, not like the three of us would have. And, uh, there was a lot of like, I would get late night calls for like, so-and-so's doing something where he shouldn't. So-and-so's put his business where it doesn't belong. I did moon the entire trailhead one time. The bar. Yeah. The bar. Yeah. Yeah, my buddy was like, dude, I didn't realize your left testicle hung so much lower than your right one. So that was, you know, the closest thing I've had to a sexual misconduct crime.

1:18:05 Yeah. I suppose. Well, this tricky thing of like teenage boys, especially like we're just savages. So it's like what part of that is like you continuing to perpetrate more of this behavior that's illegal and like just being a teenager. Yeah. Pretty scary, I suppose. I think one of the stories I can share is there was more than one occasion where the Secret Service showed up at – the inpatient unit because folks were so unwell. Oh, they were like making death threats against the president. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they were all very mentally unwell and delusional, but like these threats were serious enough that on more than one occasion, the secret service is making an appearance and hello.

1:18:47 It was, um, it was a little intense. So it's pretty wild. Like in Jamestown, North Dakota is where the state hospital is. Yeah. Like he used to be a big provider of jobs. And like my, actually my mom's older brother spent a lot of his lifetime there. Yeah. He was like going way back. He was kind of psychotic and sketchy. And like they're, they still have some clients and stuff, but across the nation, like we don't lock people up for being crazy anymore. Right. Like we lock them in jail when they get crazy enough and we let them live on the streets when they're not quite crazy enough to hurt somebody. Yeah. Yeah, there was a big push.

1:19:28 What was it, the 80s that deinstitutionalization happened? And then there was this thought that you could serve people with these needs in the community. And I think there was some short-sightedness in terms of how compliant they would be. Some people should just be locked up. Like, they can't manage their own medication. They don't have any support. They're not going to come to their therapy appointment. Right. Versus if they were... And as families have broken up over the years and stuff, there aren't a... Yeah. Like, actually, for a long time... My uncle was living with my grandparents and, you know, he was just a little bit dangerous, you know, but they made sure he took his pills and stuff like that. And, you know, eventually he became too much for them to handle. Yeah. And now there's nowhere to send these folks.

1:20:10 And so it's... Yeah, and I remember playing pool with Uncle Lyle when Dad got a pool table, and he was a bang-up pool player, and he was excited. Me and him beat Grandpa and my dad at pool, and he was so enthusiastic. It was one of the few really joyful memories I have from him. And so, like... You do want them to interact with the community as well, especially if they've got family or safe people. For sure. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I digress. That would – it's so hard to figure it out because it's like the institutions shut down because they were corrupt and abusive. Right. Right.

1:20:50 So it's like, okay, that's a problem. But then the people have too little supervision in some cases. And what do you do about that? I mean, you go to Skid Row. That's basically – Yeah. It's a lot of what's going on there. The state hospital population of – like at least six states. Yeah. They just moved to Skid Row over the last 20 years and populate that area. Yeah. So it's tricky. I'm all for supporting services who, you know, we really don't have an answer for this. Like people that have severe chronic mental illness and psychosis, if you don't have a family member that can keep an eye on you all the time, somebody needs to. Right. And that's the only way these people do something resembling functioning. Yeah. Did I let you tell enough of your...

1:21:31 Oh, yeah. No, that covers it. Just for general. Yeah. Did we really want to know more? Family history kind of stuff. But it's part of my intrigue about mental health. And I've, you know, there's been times way back, 07, 08, especially 06, 07, that I was Slip it. Sure. A little bit. Yeah. Like, you know, and I think I'm better now. Yeah. I feel like I am. But it's an intriguing thing to understand more deeply once you observe it closely. Yeah. Yeah. And there's more closeness than that I won't go into right now. Sure. Yeah. And thank you for sharing about your uncle. Like, I'm sorry to hear about him. That had to be hard for your family. And yeah, you just, you want him to have the best version of the life he can have.

1:22:15 Yeah. I mean, it was the life he had, so. Yeah. Yeah. Shared their local experience. You got something? Yeah. So we're newly married. And we're on our honeymoon, Waikiki area. Okay. And we go, let's rent some stand-up paddle boards for the day. Oh, yeah. And we've both never done this before. So we're both getting out from shore there. We're both getting our bearings falling in a number of times. At some point falling in, you hit some coral. I cut my foot pretty bad. You cut the top of your foot open. But anyways, we start getting the hang of it. And we're paddling a good half a mile out from shore.

1:22:55 And then I see just under my paddleboard the biggest fucking shark you've ever seen in your life. I mean, it was like tip to tail longer than this room. Like gigantic. And there's something that just comes over you. Like Lindsay's blood trail? Probably. It was like, ooh, there's lunch. Yep. And I was like, we cannot fall in anymore. We're done. You were like... get down and sit sit on the pad you didn't want me falling like if you kneel yeah yeah yeah so yeah we paddled in and it took us a while to get back to the beach and we're like where did that shark go i didn't see it you saw it but he just kind of like went under us and kept going but we get back to the beach and we tell the lifeguard and we're like huge shark there's a big shark like you know do you need to alert anyone he's just like righteous man and like Well, they see them all the time.

1:23:43 It wasn't right underneath his circle. I didn't do a thing with it. We were like, okay, well, we've told someone and let's go far away from the speech. What was your blood pressure that... I can only imagine. Definitely elevated. Definitely. And you're like, okay, I trust you. Let's get out of here. Hopefully he's not just being crazy right now. Nope. Nope. I'm sticking to it. And yeah, it was one of those things, just the way like the light came down through the water. I could only see him like right immediately under me and then he was gone. And I think like they say on the nature documentaries or whatever, they generally don't have an interest in people. I think he just went about his way, but we were plenty scared. So I'm sure. Lindsay, do you have a different story of mine? Not for a shared experience.

1:24:24 Oh, you got a crazy one. I mean, it's moderately crazy. Maybe you go first. Frat party days from CSU Ventures. Yeah. Your story is better than mine, and then I'll go. Okay, personal loco story. Sure. Yeah. I survived being hit by a car. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. You want to set the stage a little bit? Yeah, I was on my way into the studio today. And Lindsay said, you asshole. I was like, it's time. Might have been your producer. We love you, Ben. And no, I was 14 years old and I was on my way to the skate park. And it was a beautiful Friday afternoon.

1:25:05 And yeah, I was just trying to cross a busy thoroughfare. And I was like, waiting, waiting, waiting. Wasn't it a crosswalk? Okay. On your bike or on foot? Yeah. Let's see. I was going to the skate park. So I was – Oh, that's fun. Skate park. Yeah. And I did like rollerblading at the skate park. So like shout out to aggressive inline skaters. Yes, I like it. Who are all old millennials now. You like to stand with the skates up high. Totally. Those sunset photos. Just a little separate. On the beach. Right. That kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, and I was just trying to make my way over there. I was 14 years old and I was like plenty patient just trying to wait for an opening. And someone in the like right-hand turn lane nearest me kind of waved me across.

1:25:45 I was like, okay, I think I'm good. And it was like just like precluded from my sight. But like in comes this – it's just one of the things you remember. It's like it's a gray Ford Taurus. And, you know, the long and the short of it is like I was – pretty miraculously okay. Like it swept my legs out, like kind of swept me at the knee and both my feet or knees rather hit the concrete. And that was really the injury. It wasn't the car hitting me and I didn't go under the car at all. So then I like kind of limped my way to the rest of the way at the skate park and I had to go find a pay phone and very calmly tell my mother to pick me up. Because she was probably going to run over three more people in a panic if she knew what happened to me. Wild.

1:26:27 Yeah. My dog got hit by a car a couple years ago. One of my friends left the gate open and, like, we found him out there. And, like, it was crazy. Like, he was just all... you know, concussed, not concussed. Yeah. Concussed. Yeah. Yeah. We knocked out of him and, you know, and, uh, he made it, he made it. Oh yeah. They charged me 600 bucks for, to look at him. Right. And they were like, we recommend these $4,000 of additional tests. And I was like, I'm like, Let me see him first. And then I looked at him and I was like, eh. He looks good. I think he's going to make it. So we'll pass. See how tonight goes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But you got hurt pretty good.

1:27:09 Yeah. So your mom shows up. Yeah. Mom shows up at the skate park. What happened? Yeah. Yeah. So, so finally I'm, I'm just dragging my butt in the car and she's like, what, what's wrong? What's wrong? And she, she knows something, you know, I'm not calling to come home 20 minutes after I left usually, you know? Um, and I was just like, I gotta buy a car and she's, you know, she's actually very measured in her reaction. I was like, okay. You know, she worked at the hospital, all that, as we discussed. So she knew where to take me and just like took me for an x-ray and everything was negative in my legs. So you just got some heavy bruises. Yep. My knee was pretty swollen. It might have been like a bad sprain. I crutched around for a little bit, but it was, yeah. And, you know, one of those little divine lessons. Like I was such a cynical teenager of like, oh whatever man this is all so lame let's kill myself you know and it's like i was never seriously suicidal or anything but like i learned to quit talking and thinking that way it's like i actually want to be here right when when it actually got scary i want to live yep that's cool yeah wow so and how do you follow that up Well, I too had a near-death experience.

1:28:11 Oh. This is more like just a fun fact about me. Fun fact. Fun fact. In graduate school, I don't know why my friends and I got the bright idea in our heads. We were like, you know, I wonder how many chicken McNuggets we can eat. And so long story short, I put down 50 chicken McNuggets and a small fry in one sitting, one Super Bowl. Damn. I know. Did you go to the doctor? I think I died. I flatlined at least once. I probably saw God that day. It's an impressive number. I gave myself a little pat on the back. And then it definitely took, what, seven and a half years off my life? But at least I can say I took down 50 chicken McNugs.

1:28:53 With sauce? Yeah, I think I had barbecue and a little bit of ranch, too. You'd have to. One of my favorite YouTube shows to watch while eating dinner is Beard Meets Food. Have you seen that show? Oh, my gosh. I think we have. He's got the long brown beard. Yeah, John Beard, English accent. We've seen a couple of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Now it's clicking. It makes me feel better about. You watch that during dinner? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's weird. It's weird. I think I have like, what is it? Just like phantom pains watching him do what he's doing. Right. Like my stomach starts to hurt. I can't even imagine a lot of it. Oh, my gosh. It's just so nutty. Yeah.

1:29:33 So if people are feeling a little crazy but not too crazy to be qualified for Evolve counseling, do you want to have a website or anything you want to send them to? Yeah, absolutely. If you like Chicken McNuggets, too. Yeah, if you're a big fan of Chicken McNuggets and you would like to have a contest with Lindsay. I'm down. Yeah, first-time clients get a free 20-pack. Yeah, there we go. We'll just warm up. Yeah. In all seriousness, you know, we like to do well at our work and we like to have fun, too. So you can find us at evolvecounselingnoco.com. Best way to reach out. Yeah. We are accepting new clients, too. Yeah. Do you guys have any questions of me?

1:30:16 The podcast, I think you said you really like getting to know people, but how did the podcast come into fruition? Why did we start this? Yeah. I was actually just sharing this with somebody today. So I kind of self-cancelled myself from all social media in the summer of 2020 because... I was saying dumb things like Black Lives Matter might not be the best thing for black communities thriving and stuff like that, which got me labeled a racist and canceled and all kinds of terrible things. And I was saying, like, maybe shut down all the businesses. Hey, look, it's only old people dying from COVID. Chillax, everybody. And so I was like persona non grata.

1:30:57 They kicked you out. Well, I kicked myself out. Okay. I was like, everybody hates me. I kind of don't thrive on thinking everybody hates me. Yeah, of course. And so I self-cancelled myself. And then a few months later, I was like, Fuck that, man. I'm starting a podcast. I can say what I want on a podcast. And yeah, it's just been fun. I just really enjoy it. And I've always been the kind of person that likes to learn from and converse with people from all different... walks of life and angles and try a little bit to understand their perspective sure and so i just think it kind of suits me yeah you're kind of like a therapist oh yeah yeah if i was licensed i wouldn't have to have all these tickets for non-licensed practicing of a profession Good for you, man.

1:31:44 Just being honest, confronting difficult truths. And Kurt will not be muted. No, he will not. You're having our record right here. Ask me to do something. Yes, I will probably. Tell me to do something. Check you later, douchebag. All right. Thanks, you guys. Thank you. Thanks, Kurt. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Hi, this is Kurt Baer, host of the Loco Experience podcast and founder of Loco Think Tank. Every week, I explore intimate conversations with business founders and leaders. And so I hope you'll join us this week and every week for a new episode of the Loco Experience.