Sept. 23, 2026

The LoCo Experience EP 288 | Life is Better Here! - Ben Smith & Lindsey Phillips

Life is Better Here! - Ben Smith & Lindsey Phillips - Owners & Therapists at Evolve Counseling

In today's episode of the LoCo Experience podcast, I sat down with Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips, the owners and therapists at Evolve Counseling. They shared abundantly about their inspiration to begin a private practice and the journey - first by Lindsay and then drawing in Ben - toward leaving corporate roles to become self-employed.

We talked about the business of mental health, what drew each of them into the field in the first place, and some of the plans they have to expand the practice in the seasons ahead. I also put some of my own quirks on display and asked some nutty questions, and we wondered together why more and more young people have been seeking mental health counseling - and if the trends will reverse when Trump leaves office.

Good people, great stories, and inspiring business journeys are all to be found in this episode, so please join me in enjoying my conversation with Ben Smith and Lindsey Phillips.

Transcript

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In today's episode of the Loco Experience Podcast, I sat down with Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips, the owners and therapists at Evolve Counseling.

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They shared abundantly about their inspiration to begin a private practice in the journey, first by Lindsay and then drawing in Ben toward leaving corporate roles to become self-employed.

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We talked about the business of mental health, what drew each of them into the field in the first place, and some of the plans they have to expand the practice in the seasons ahead.

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I also put some of my own quirks on display and asked some nutty questions.

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And we wondered together why more and more young people have been seeking mental health counseling and if the trends will reverse once Trump leaves office.

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Good people, great stories and inspiring business journeys are all to be found in this episode.

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So please join me in enjoying my conversation with Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips.

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Welcome to the local experience podcast on this show.

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You'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond.

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Our guests share their stories, and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained.

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These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off-limits.

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So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest.

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience.

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My guests today are Ben Smith and Lindsay Phillips, and they are the owners and therapists at Evolve Counseling here in Fort Collins.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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I haven't been to your office.

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I've been to most of them.

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Yeah.

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Like a lot of therapists.

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I'm a frequenter.

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I'm a dabbler.

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You've sampled.

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Yeah.

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Kurt, thank you for having us on.

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We've been excited to do this.

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How many visits before you know somebody isn't going to work out for your practice?

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Because I've been kicked out of a lot.

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Is that right?

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Is this a vetting meeting here?

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Yes, it actually is.

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We should have some screening questions.

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No, I mean, that is a serious question, though, is like how, like, one of the beautiful things about Loco Think Tank is I get to kind of pick who's in the club or whatever.

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And if people are weirdos or whatnot, potentially dangerous, I don't have to let them in.

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Right.

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Yes.

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And I guess the potentially dangerous is probably a qualifier.

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But do you refuse clients regularly?

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And what's that look and feel like?

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Yeah.

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You want me to take a swing at this one or...

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Yeah, go for it.

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I'll fill in.

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Yeah.

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We've done a good job over the years just kind of defining like who we work with, who we're comfortable with.

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And that comes through in our website and our advertising.

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We mostly serve people with anxiety and depression, a lot of college students going through that transition, major life transitions for people of all ages.

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So that in and of itself does a lot of just self-selecting and narrowing.

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They've looked you up a bit before they're coming.

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Yes.

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Now, that being said, right, one gets past the goalie once in a while and it's like, well, what do you do?

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And it really is when you speak to specialization, it's actually a very easy and kind conversation.

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It's just like, hey, this is so important to you that you get the help you need with this, that you get this right.

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Right.

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I would hate for you to establish a relationship with a therapist.

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Then me have to say like, well, we get along great, but I, I'm really not qualified to help you with that.

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Yeah.

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Um, and, and, and you kind of just say, Hey, let me, let me put you in touch with, with someone that I think could help you out.

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And we just try to be like a positive, like redirection in their experience.

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And, um, and you have a list of therapists that you try to send those people to.

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Um,

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Our enemies.

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Yeah.

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No.

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No, but you're right, though.

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I mean, sometimes, like, their difficulty isn't because of a specialty.

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So it's really a dramatic personality disorder thing or major substance abuse problem or something like that.

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Precisely.

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You aren't the right people, really, to fix it.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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I liken it to specialization within doctors.

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If you have a heart problem, you want to see a cardiologist.

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You don't want to go see an oncologist.

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And sometimes...

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we're not the person so yeah we usually catch this during screening so before they're established and seeing us regularly we usually have back and forth whether that's phone or email tell me what brings you in what do you want to work on so we can usually filter people out that aren't a good fit that you know our our training doesn't really help support um before they even get established so yeah

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And you said, I think, kind of a bit of a specialty or at least a concentration in life transitions, but especially younger people, depression, anxiety, probably a pretty big pool.

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It feels like that pool has grown.

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Like, it used to feel like old married people problems and stuff, usually, you know, except for kids whose parents beat them up or, you know, obviously...

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That kind of thing.

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But counseling among teenagers, I would suspect, has tripled over the last 20 years.

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Skyrocketed.

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And COVID had a lot to do with that.

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We saw numbers just hit the ceiling throughout that.

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A lot of anxiety.

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A lot of difficulties connecting socially.

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Yeah, we're definitely seeing an increase in young people.

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Is it still?

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Like, is it a resilient increase?

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It's shot up during COVID and then it's kind of hung out.

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We see influences from social media as well and people just not functioning as well or as independently as previous generations.

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So that plays into the anxiety as well.

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There's not a lot of self-efficacy.

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There's not a lot of belief in the self that they can.

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go and do yeah and so yeah people generally feel anxious when they're in that state right well and there's a lot of i imagine like keeping up with the joneses like comparative stuff you know i'm not as cool or as smart as mark zuckerberg so i guess i'm a big failure yeah exactly it's amazing um how many college age students i've had say to me they're like i mean i'm 22 now so i'm i'm a

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For what?

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it's just this relative thing, right?

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Of like, I can remember feeling that way too.

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And they're comparing to their peers and all of this.

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And yeah, it's just that they haven't had that season perspective.

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It just comes with being around a little longer.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And I suppose because you guys are relatively young, or at least probably for your trade and young looking besides, you're somewhat safe to approach, safer than like an old stodgy person.

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person or well well thank you first off i didn't know it was gonna be like just yeah kurt pours you a nice drink and and compliments um uh no appreciate it i think that's played to our benefit a little bit we probably are both a little younger than we look um we're in our early 40s just for the record i think you're older than you're actually older than you look

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Sorry.

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Perhaps did I phrase that poorly?

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That's what you meant to say.

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Yes, your wife is looking at you like, excuse me.

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Yeah, this is our 17th year of practice for each of us.

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Wow.

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We've been therapists since 2009, 2010.

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So we've been at this a while.

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We're in our early 40s.

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We're not spring chickens, but I think we don't quite look like their parents.

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But we're like, you know, an old, wise, older sibling.

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Yeah.

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So there's some relatability there.

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Cool uncle or something.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And so let's get into your practice a little bit beyond that.

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So is it just the two of you?

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Do you have other counselors and therapists in your office as well?

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Right now, it's just the two of us.

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You mean to keep it that way?

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Yeah.

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Yeah?

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Well, maybe not.

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Okay.

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All right.

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You'll hear it here first.

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We're actually looking to hire a couples therapist.

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Okay.

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And maybe looking to get going on that later this year, early 2027.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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Kind of doing our due diligence to be ready for that.

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I remember that from our Zoom call a couple months ago, Ben.

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Yes.

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Was that even though you guys are married, you don't really do couples stuff.

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Right.

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Right.

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And I was like, well, that's got to be a big gap in the game for a practice because most people are part of a couple.

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So if you help them through some other stuff and then they got some couple stuff, you're like, now, you know.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So looking to expand.

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But we've kept it small and we've really enjoyed that.

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We both came from working for other mental health agencies and things previously.

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Maybe we'll touch on that.

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We sure will.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, there's just been a purity about it.

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Like when there's not a whole agency and politics and outside stakeholders, the mission is really clear.

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It's like attract and satisfy customers.

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That's it.

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And if something isn't speaking towards that, then it's noise.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And we've got that feedback from clients that have come to us.

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They've sought out a small practice specifically because they feel like they can get lost in the shuffle of a bigger organization.

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Well, if you're in a big one, the hiring is so tough in the industry that it's almost like you have to become a training organization.

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Yes.

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And that means all of your clients are meeting with early career therapists.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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And that's challenging too, right?

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To ensure that you're giving really sound counsel.

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Yeah.

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There's just a learning curve that comes with the years that you spent doing this.

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Ooh.

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Let's talk about... Ooh, learning curve.

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Uh-oh.

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I'm just kidding.

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I was tempted to say, like, what's the worst advice you ever gave somebody?

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What was the result?

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Yeah.

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It's never happened.

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We've never given that advice.

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Just like a politician.

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You're a second-guess of thing I said.

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The government official has never made a mistake.

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No, actually, let's dive into – we'll come back to probably the growth plans and the decision around adding, but let's dive into the start.

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Let's set the stage on what was the season of life six months before, three months before your private practice started.

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Sure.

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I think you were first.

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Yeah.

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So it came on kind of out of nowhere.

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I was working at a hospital on an inpatient psychiatric unit.

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So just working with.

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Oh, so you've worked with the real nutty ones before too.

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The most severe, the most severe people.

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They're involuntarily committed essentially because they're so mentally ill. And I had a friend who had started a private practice.

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She was working at the hospital with me and she started a private practice on the side and she was dabbling in it.

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And I was kind of keeping an eye on, well, how's that going?

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Um, I'm not a risk taker, so I'm like, okay, she can be the guinea pig.

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Let's see how this goes.

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And she, you know, just kind of talked to me about it and I started to learn more.

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And then I started listening to other podcasts and entrepreneurial advice for therapists.

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And that was early stage in the podcast world.

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Yeah.

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This was what, circa 2018.

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And, um, just started to get additional information.

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And through that process, I was like, you know, I think I can do this, but that, um,

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taking the risk to leave a stable paycheck with benefits and just go off on your own and your little venture that you want to be sustainable.

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Um, it just, it was scary.

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None of your existing clients are really the kind of clients you want for your future practice.

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No, no, no.

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They needed higher levels of care than what we currently do.

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Like straps for the tables and stuff.

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I mean, it's just not appropriate for outpatient.

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It wouldn't be safe for them.

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Yeah.

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Understood.

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So eventually, you know, after talking to Ben, he was instrumental in the sense of he was like, OK, well, I'll hold down my job.

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That can be our stability.

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You know, you can go try this thing.

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Take a risk.

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Go for it.

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What, Ben?

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Where were you at at the time?

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Kind of similar.

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I was managing a residential treatment center in Greeley.

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Okay.

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And I spent kind of the first, I don't know, nine years of my career there.

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Okay.

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And, yeah, similar, like more severe population.

233
00:11:30.298 --> 00:11:31.980
If it's inpatient, you know, that's kind of implied.

234
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.483
And this is drug and alcohol kind of inpatient or not at all?

235
00:11:35.543 --> 00:11:35.983
Not that?

236
00:11:36.043 --> 00:11:37.565
More mental illness stuff or both?

237
00:11:37.825 --> 00:11:39.647
It's a specialization you couldn't see coming.

238
00:11:39.667 --> 00:11:40.107
Yeah.

239
00:11:40.828 --> 00:11:46.373
So I worked with – so most of the kids in the program – they were kids.

240
00:11:46.393 --> 00:11:47.253
They were under 18.

241
00:11:48.294 --> 00:11:50.536
Actually like up to like 21 but here or there.

242
00:11:51.557 --> 00:11:52.918
They were in youth corrections.

243
00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:58.203
So in the state of Colorado, they do this interesting thing, which I think is largely a good thing.

244
00:11:58.283 --> 00:12:00.225
It's just like, hey, you're very young.

245
00:12:00.425 --> 00:12:02.707
You found yourself in significant legal trouble.

246
00:12:02.747 --> 00:12:05.730
We mean significant, not like you were out partying but like – yeah.

247
00:12:06.711 --> 00:12:10.616
And we're going to allow you to defer your treatment into a treatment program, right?

248
00:12:10.636 --> 00:12:11.277
Defer your sentence.

249
00:12:11.317 --> 00:12:12.219
Yeah, exactly.

250
00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:13.040
OK.

251
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:14.402
So that's who we worked with.

252
00:12:14.502 --> 00:12:16.625
And yeah, they were kids that committed serious crimes.

253
00:12:16.645 --> 00:12:17.746
Some of them were gang involved.

254
00:12:18.067 --> 00:12:21.812
We were most known for like serving kids that had committed sexual offenses.

255
00:12:22.553 --> 00:12:23.434
So, yeah.

256
00:12:23.494 --> 00:12:23.994
Okay.

257
00:12:24.054 --> 00:12:24.675
I know that can be a tough.

258
00:12:24.695 --> 00:12:29.719
So like 16-year-olds with their 11-year-old cousin or stuff like that, whatever.

259
00:12:29.959 --> 00:12:30.099
Yep.

260
00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:31.500
A lot of times it was like incestuous.

261
00:12:31.881 --> 00:12:32.141
Yeah.

262
00:12:32.241 --> 00:12:32.381
Yeah.

263
00:12:32.401 --> 00:12:35.543
It was, you know, and just kids that came from like just rough, horrible situations.

264
00:12:35.563 --> 00:12:40.407
They had no guidance on what it was like to be a normal person or a responsible person.

265
00:12:40.427 --> 00:12:41.808
Just no boundaries in that household.

266
00:12:42.109 --> 00:12:42.309
Yeah.

267
00:12:42.409 --> 00:12:42.649
Wow.

268
00:12:42.729 --> 00:12:42.989
Yeah.

269
00:12:43.129 --> 00:12:43.330
Yeah.

270
00:12:43.350 --> 00:12:47.773
So, you know, not to draw focus from Lindsay getting underway here, but it's like I'm still in that line of work.

271
00:12:47.793 --> 00:12:48.754
Well, your job was pretty hard too.

272
00:12:48.794 --> 00:12:49.695
She's at the hospital.

273
00:12:50.035 --> 00:12:50.155
Yeah.

274
00:12:50.535 --> 00:12:52.257
You're like, okay, buck on, little soldier.

275
00:12:52.437 --> 00:12:53.057
Right.

276
00:12:53.077 --> 00:12:53.758
Sounds good.

277
00:12:54.058 --> 00:12:54.799
I'm out of here.

278
00:12:54.819 --> 00:12:56.420
Yeah.

279
00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:57.881
I'll stay in the trench a moment longer.

280
00:12:57.901 --> 00:13:01.705
And did you jump the coop or did you dabble on the side like your friend?

281
00:13:01.805 --> 00:13:02.145
Yeah.

282
00:13:02.245 --> 00:13:10.292
So I went to part-time at the hospital and got things underway and, yeah, basically launched it.

283
00:13:10.432 --> 00:13:13.454
And as I saw, okay, yep, I can get clients.

284
00:13:13.755 --> 00:13:15.616
I think I'm understanding the business side of this.

285
00:13:15.636 --> 00:13:15.756
Right.

286
00:13:15.776 --> 00:13:16.437
Let's do this.

287
00:13:16.457 --> 00:13:17.378
Here's how you send bills.

288
00:13:17.698 --> 00:13:18.499
Yeah, exactly.

289
00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:18.619
Yeah.

290
00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.041
Was that you or was that Ben behind the scenes?

291
00:13:22.261 --> 00:13:22.941
I did it all.

292
00:13:23.001 --> 00:13:23.742
You did all the stuff.

293
00:13:23.782 --> 00:13:24.342
I did all the things.

294
00:13:24.362 --> 00:13:26.443
He was just doing his regular day job.

295
00:13:26.563 --> 00:13:28.044
He was the income at that point.

296
00:13:28.164 --> 00:13:31.146
So, yeah, I was getting my measly little paychecks coming in.

297
00:13:31.206 --> 00:13:32.726
But, yeah, launched it.

298
00:13:32.926 --> 00:13:39.290
And about a year in, I started to kind of talk to him seriously about,

299
00:13:39.650 --> 00:13:41.372
you know, the water's warm over here.

300
00:13:41.392 --> 00:13:46.718
Do you think you might want to come do this or at least see what it's like?

301
00:13:46.778 --> 00:13:48.500
And then Ben started dabbling.

302
00:13:48.520 --> 00:13:51.083
I think he had just a couple clients to start.

303
00:13:51.403 --> 00:13:51.703
Right.

304
00:13:51.823 --> 00:13:53.425
I'd see two or three people on Monday nights.

305
00:13:53.505 --> 00:13:53.986
That was it.

306
00:13:54.126 --> 00:13:55.808
That was your gap in your schedule.

307
00:13:55.828 --> 00:13:56.609
Just moonlighting.

308
00:13:56.649 --> 00:13:56.989
Yeah.

309
00:13:57.009 --> 00:13:57.409
Yeah.

310
00:13:58.030 --> 00:13:58.871
But yeah, yeah.

311
00:13:59.011 --> 00:13:59.552
Just help.

312
00:13:59.932 --> 00:14:01.634
It helped warm me up to the idea.

313
00:14:02.194 --> 00:14:06.819
Both of you guys hadn't really worked with kind of the general population much, right?

314
00:14:06.839 --> 00:14:12.345
So did you specialize right away in anything or was kind of whoever?

315
00:14:12.445 --> 00:14:20.373
And then kind of the depression and anxiety ended up being, especially with COVID Nation in 2020, it's like, oh, 70% of new clients are depression and anxiety.

316
00:14:22.375 --> 00:14:22.795
Yeah.

317
00:14:23.096 --> 00:14:24.456
No, and that's really astute.

318
00:14:24.476 --> 00:14:29.159
I think we had a little bit of like our walls are up a little too high in terms of who we would see.

319
00:14:29.219 --> 00:14:32.001
It's like, oh, this cannot be like a residential treatment level.

320
00:14:32.121 --> 00:14:34.243
Yeah, you're a little scared of getting close to that.

321
00:14:34.283 --> 00:14:38.445
Clientele, and it turns out that's just rarely the case with the general public.

322
00:14:38.485 --> 00:14:38.845
Right.

323
00:14:39.266 --> 00:14:39.466
Yeah.

324
00:14:39.966 --> 00:14:43.989
Yeah, I think when I started it, I was kind of getting a sense.

325
00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:47.872
I was getting the lay of the land and I was taking people that I was qualified to work with.

326
00:14:47.932 --> 00:14:56.078
But as I spent time with this diagnosis or that diagnosis, it was kind of like, you know, I think I think depression and anxiety is there's a need for it.

327
00:14:56.298 --> 00:14:57.719
And it's where I want to be.

328
00:14:57.999 --> 00:15:03.423
So, yeah, initially started broad and then kind of whittled into depression.

329
00:15:03.443 --> 00:15:04.684
Anxiety is what you want to do.

330
00:15:04.884 --> 00:15:06.125
How did they find you?

331
00:15:06.525 --> 00:15:08.646
Like, what did that look like for you?

332
00:15:08.666 --> 00:15:12.028
You know, is it Facebook ads?

333
00:15:12.088 --> 00:15:13.529
Is it therapy today?

334
00:15:13.549 --> 00:15:17.891
You know, like, how does... We had like one of those car wash signs.

335
00:15:18.071 --> 00:15:19.131
Yeah, we hired a guy.

336
00:15:20.652 --> 00:15:21.613
It was Ben.

337
00:15:23.054 --> 00:15:23.734
We didn't pay him at all.

338
00:15:23.894 --> 00:15:24.294
Right.

339
00:15:24.394 --> 00:15:25.135
It was Ben.

340
00:15:26.035 --> 00:15:27.917
In the early days, we took insurance.

341
00:15:27.978 --> 00:15:28.658
I took insurance.

342
00:15:28.939 --> 00:15:29.900
That's how I started.

343
00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:30.140
Okay.

344
00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:31.622
Because going the insurance route is very safe.

345
00:15:31.642 --> 00:15:35.126
Like willingness to take insurance is... Because you always have a steady stream of referrals.

346
00:15:35.226 --> 00:15:35.366
Yeah.

347
00:15:35.427 --> 00:15:39.431
There's no effort that needs to be put into marketing because the insurance companies...

348
00:15:40.589 --> 00:15:58.408
know that you have openings so they just send people to you so we started i started with insurance and basically it's a nightmare taking insurance as a clinician is a nightmare um i had to hire somebody to kind of fill that role of dealing with the insurance companies and doing collections and it's

349
00:15:59.148 --> 00:16:00.710
that's income out of your pocket.

350
00:16:00.790 --> 00:16:02.432
I mean, it's just... And it's super slow.

351
00:16:02.452 --> 00:16:03.654
You never know when you're going to get paid.

352
00:16:03.754 --> 00:16:07.018
The mistakes that the insurance company would make and then not pay you.

353
00:16:07.058 --> 00:16:12.224
One half of what they should have, but it's going to take 90 days and three hours on the phone to get the other $23.

354
00:16:12.244 --> 00:16:13.486
Swish, that's exactly it.

355
00:16:13.586 --> 00:16:14.767
Yeah, that's exactly it.

356
00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:22.193
And after they would pay you correctly like eight times in a row, then there'd just be this mistake and nothing changed.

357
00:16:22.213 --> 00:16:23.294
Nothing changed in your codes.

358
00:16:23.374 --> 00:16:27.056
So setting up systems to figure that out a little bit was probably part of it.

359
00:16:27.196 --> 00:16:28.277
Or you just get out.

360
00:16:28.337 --> 00:16:29.658
You don't take insurance anymore.

361
00:16:29.938 --> 00:16:33.280
So then, yeah, basically at one point I was like, this is affecting clients.

362
00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:37.183
You know, instead of me being able to concentrate on their treatment plans and what to do –

363
00:16:37.683 --> 00:16:42.089
I'm spending time hunting down payments and correcting mistakes that these insurance companies made.

364
00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:45.594
So it didn't really align with our values as a company.

365
00:16:45.614 --> 00:16:48.117
Can you kind of say you can do your insurance?

366
00:16:48.177 --> 00:16:51.822
It's cash pay and you can get reimbursement from your insurance provider?

367
00:16:51.882 --> 00:16:52.603
Is that an option?

368
00:16:52.843 --> 00:16:53.745
It's an option.

369
00:16:53.945 --> 00:16:55.107
Most people are like, fuck it.

370
00:16:56.548 --> 00:16:57.708
There's some of that.

371
00:16:58.228 --> 00:17:02.110
They don't want to navigate it, but the insurance only pays a portion of it.

372
00:17:02.130 --> 00:17:06.292
I have a more intriguing question that the economist brain in me came up with.

373
00:17:07.192 --> 00:17:09.213
So you've served both of those marketplaces.

374
00:17:09.974 --> 00:17:18.998
My theory is that people that are paying it out of their own pocket might try harder and get better faster than people whose insurance companies are paying for it.

375
00:17:19.458 --> 00:17:21.019
It's a well-observed phenomenon.

376
00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.200
When you have more skin in the game, you tend to invest more of yourself in the process.

377
00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:27.361
So yeah, I would say that that's true to a degree.

378
00:17:27.381 --> 00:17:27.801
That's surprising.

379
00:17:28.621 --> 00:17:39.244
One of the coolest things they taught us, and I mean this was like the thimble of economics they taught us in counseling graduate school, was they were saying like you can see someone on a sliding scale, right, which you would ethically do, right?

380
00:17:39.284 --> 00:17:39.625
Yeah.

381
00:17:39.825 --> 00:17:40.565
If someone really needs to.

382
00:17:40.585 --> 00:17:41.125
You want to be a barrier.

383
00:17:41.145 --> 00:17:41.285
Yeah.

384
00:17:41.325 --> 00:17:43.886
But they go, you never charge nothing.

385
00:17:43.926 --> 00:17:46.947
Because even if it's just a dollar, right, that might be a real amount of money that

386
00:17:47.327 --> 00:17:49.189
it helps them invest in the process.

387
00:17:49.409 --> 00:17:53.472
When I first wanted to start Loco Think Tank, I just wanted to pull it together.

388
00:17:53.512 --> 00:17:57.796
My buddy was like, dude, your attendance is going to be terrible if nobody's paying anything to be public.

389
00:17:57.816 --> 00:17:57.956
Right.

390
00:17:58.176 --> 00:17:58.436
Yes.

391
00:17:59.297 --> 00:17:59.417
Yeah.

392
00:17:59.437 --> 00:18:00.278
And your quality control.

393
00:18:01.239 --> 00:18:01.939
That too.

394
00:18:01.959 --> 00:18:02.900
Yeah.

395
00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:03.140
Yeah.

396
00:18:03.220 --> 00:18:06.843
And same goes, I imagine, when they're invested in their own pursuit.

397
00:18:06.863 --> 00:18:12.428
Otherwise, I'm sure some people with the most voluptuous insurance plans, like they're just lazy.

398
00:18:12.468 --> 00:18:13.209
Like they show up.

399
00:18:13.769 --> 00:18:14.109
Yeah.

400
00:18:14.329 --> 00:18:14.789
And that's it.

401
00:18:14.809 --> 00:18:16.470
They don't really, because it takes work, right?

402
00:18:16.550 --> 00:18:16.690
Right.

403
00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:18.031
Whatever you're facing.

404
00:18:19.671 --> 00:18:23.433
So can we like do some practical like anxiety?

405
00:18:23.453 --> 00:18:42.901
Oh, wait, well, we'll come back to the story with, with Ben joining the firm, but like some practical anxiety, depression things, you know, I know that I've had anxiety seasons, maybe not some depression perhaps over time, but not as much of that, but definitely anxiety where I just like anxious and, and whatever, like what are like,

406
00:18:44.495 --> 00:18:50.338
Do you have to like dig into root problems and my childhood stories and stuff to get that?

407
00:18:50.418 --> 00:18:51.058
Yeah.

408
00:18:51.339 --> 00:18:52.319
How long is this podcast?

409
00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:52.759
Yeah.

410
00:18:52.819 --> 00:18:54.160
We have more time, yeah?

411
00:18:55.801 --> 00:18:56.101
Yeah.

412
00:18:56.521 --> 00:18:59.042
No, you're talking to the right folks.

413
00:18:59.082 --> 00:19:03.425
Like for me, I do yoga, for example, like at least three times a week.

414
00:19:03.465 --> 00:19:09.728
And for me, that's one way of kind of getting out of my rat brain and into Zen brain for a little while, right?

415
00:19:09.748 --> 00:19:10.008
Yeah.

416
00:19:10.188 --> 00:19:10.969
Yeah.

417
00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:15.274
Let's, I mean, since we're here for a while, I'll give you the semi-long answer.

418
00:19:15.314 --> 00:19:20.279
And I'm not trying to have you drive yourself away from future business so everybody can just fix themselves.

419
00:19:20.299 --> 00:19:29.069
But even recognizing when it's time to pick up the phone and call instead of, you know, kind of just working to chill a little bit more and taking a little time off.

420
00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:30.651
Yeah, like versus to struggle on.

421
00:19:31.191 --> 00:19:31.451
Right.

422
00:19:31.532 --> 00:19:31.752
Yeah.

423
00:19:32.392 --> 00:19:36.073
So practically speaking – and we'll introduce a little bit of what we do here.

424
00:19:36.113 --> 00:19:40.015
So Lindsay and I both work from a cognitive behavioral therapy basis, CBT.

425
00:19:40.675 --> 00:19:44.997
And like I have – this is one of the funnest parts of my job.

426
00:19:45.017 --> 00:19:46.057
I should have brought the handout.

427
00:19:46.097 --> 00:19:48.678
But I have just a simple handout with two diagrams on it.

428
00:19:49.078 --> 00:19:58.429
that we go through with, with all of our new clients and, you know, not like day one new, but just like, okay, we're getting underway with our goals here because the ability to see these patterns is, is everything.

429
00:19:59.130 --> 00:20:01.292
You cannot interrupt a pattern that you don't understand.

430
00:20:01.913 --> 00:20:03.595
And I think it was, it was younger.

431
00:20:03.635 --> 00:20:05.137
One of the early folks was like, you know,

432
00:20:05.457 --> 00:20:08.038
Until you understand, you know, until – what did he say?

433
00:20:08.058 --> 00:20:12.819
Until you make the unconscious conscious, you know, it will dictate to you and you will call it fate.

434
00:20:12.999 --> 00:20:13.379
Yeah, yeah.

435
00:20:13.399 --> 00:20:13.720
Right?

436
00:20:13.840 --> 00:20:15.520
So we're trying to work that process a little bit.

437
00:20:15.540 --> 00:20:18.981
But one of the simple principles on the CBT diagram, it's just a triangle.

438
00:20:19.341 --> 00:20:25.123
And at each point of the triangle, it says, you know, respectively, thoughts, feelings, behavior.

439
00:20:25.143 --> 00:20:26.443
It's like, okay.

440
00:20:26.844 --> 00:20:31.005
And what we're trying to take away is everything on this triangle influences each other equally.

441
00:20:31.025 --> 00:20:31.305
Right?

442
00:20:31.945 --> 00:20:35.726
So how you think influences how you feel, but how you feel also influences how you think.

443
00:20:36.467 --> 00:20:38.027
And it's like, don't take my word for it.

444
00:20:38.047 --> 00:20:39.608
This just, this works out in real life.

445
00:20:39.628 --> 00:20:41.048
Yeah, and act.

446
00:20:41.708 --> 00:20:47.290
We study a thing called Hallows relational intelligence, and it's kind of built on that triangle of think, feel, act.

447
00:20:47.470 --> 00:20:48.031
Yes.

448
00:20:48.191 --> 00:20:48.531
Yeah, yeah.

449
00:20:48.551 --> 00:20:51.152
Logical intelligence, emotional intelligence, and relational.

450
00:20:51.692 --> 00:20:52.372
Totally.

451
00:20:52.472 --> 00:20:52.752
It's funny.

452
00:20:52.772 --> 00:20:56.574
So much of this is like borrowed out of philosophy and things like that.

453
00:20:58.255 --> 00:21:05.127
But the big takeaway here is like, okay, so you're describing at the start of this, like, okay, I want to, you know, I'm feeling a little anxious and I want to feel differently.

454
00:21:05.628 --> 00:21:09.254
The curious thing about people is we don't just directly modulate how we feel.

455
00:21:09.833 --> 00:21:09.993
Yeah.

456
00:21:10.293 --> 00:21:10.474
Right.

457
00:21:10.534 --> 00:21:12.335
If I'm like, Kurt, just turn down the anxiety.

458
00:21:12.395 --> 00:21:13.576
Just make it 10% less.

459
00:21:13.596 --> 00:21:13.996
Right.

460
00:21:14.036 --> 00:21:14.237
Right.

461
00:21:14.737 --> 00:21:17.379
It's like, yeah, Ben, I would have done that some time ago.

462
00:21:17.399 --> 00:21:18.420
Like, yeah, yeah.

463
00:21:18.460 --> 00:21:18.780
Thank you.

464
00:21:19.161 --> 00:21:23.124
So, but so, so what we're trying to figure out here, it's like, okay, how do we change how we feel?

465
00:21:23.484 --> 00:21:27.568
And what's implied in that triangle diagram is what we do control the other two elements of it.

466
00:21:27.948 --> 00:21:28.088
Right.

467
00:21:28.128 --> 00:21:30.510
I can control what I think and I can control what I do.

468
00:21:31.070 --> 00:21:34.233
What we think is somewhat spontaneous, but we can totally control it as well.

469
00:21:34.793 --> 00:21:36.494
So that's where it becomes cognitive behavioral therapy.

470
00:21:36.514 --> 00:21:40.696
And that's kind of part of evolving a bit is intentionally controlling what you think.

471
00:21:40.756 --> 00:21:43.637
And part of that is putting different things inside your head.

472
00:21:43.997 --> 00:21:44.277
Yes.

473
00:21:44.758 --> 00:21:44.978
Yes.

474
00:21:45.478 --> 00:21:48.959
So everything funnels down between one of those two methodologies, right?

475
00:21:48.979 --> 00:21:52.441
You're either going to act or do something differently, yoga, right?

476
00:21:52.681 --> 00:21:53.942
Or you're going to change your thinking.

477
00:21:54.382 --> 00:21:57.123
And the thinking part is usually the pretty untapped part to people.

478
00:21:57.403 --> 00:21:59.264
Most people know like, oh, I need to get it together.

479
00:21:59.284 --> 00:22:03.526
Or if I need to get up early and go for a run and all that's behavior change, you can get great things from that.

480
00:22:03.926 --> 00:22:07.007
We have almost no public discourse on like, what does the thinking mean?

481
00:22:07.327 --> 00:22:07.947
How do we do that?

482
00:22:07.987 --> 00:22:08.807
How do we do that better?

483
00:22:09.267 --> 00:22:09.447
Yeah.

484
00:22:09.667 --> 00:22:09.848
Yeah.

485
00:22:10.248 --> 00:22:12.688
And there's patterns and thought that get established with anxiety.

486
00:22:12.708 --> 00:22:14.269
So like people will catastrophize.

487
00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:15.889
They go to the worst case scenario.

488
00:22:15.929 --> 00:22:20.110
They do probability over estimation where the worst thing is 100% going to happen.

489
00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:21.911
Totally right.

490
00:22:21.931 --> 00:22:25.932
They do tunnel vision where other possibilities.

491
00:22:25.992 --> 00:22:27.352
Nope, that's not going to be a thing.

492
00:22:28.092 --> 00:22:36.574
We work with those patterns to challenge them and get people to relate to these situations differently so that way the anxiety decreases.

493
00:22:37.394 --> 00:22:40.695
Almost, I've been taught some stuff.

494
00:22:40.735 --> 00:22:43.316
Gosh, it was a guy with a group forever ago.

495
00:22:43.856 --> 00:22:48.237
But it wasn't like the ninja selling, but it was like getting up in the balcony and kind of...

496
00:22:49.077 --> 00:22:54.461
trying to be an observer of your own self a little bit in the situation at hand.

497
00:22:55.662 --> 00:23:02.427
And so I imagine that sounds a little bit like what you're trying to encourage, is trying to take an outsider's perspective on some of the things they're doing.

498
00:23:02.447 --> 00:23:03.647
Because it manifests in...

499
00:23:04.808 --> 00:23:08.231
actions that are like, that's how they recognize the need to come to counseling.

500
00:23:08.251 --> 00:23:19.582
A lot of times it's because they're doing things or maybe, maybe it's just not sleeping or whatever, but probably more likely they're doing things like snapping at their roommate or their husband or whatever.

501
00:23:20.242 --> 00:23:22.243
And avoidance, too, especially with anxiety.

502
00:23:22.503 --> 00:23:29.385
When we look at that pattern of how you think, feel, and behave, with anxiety, our reflexive action is to avoid.

503
00:23:30.265 --> 00:23:33.266
And that gets people into trouble and messes with their functioning.

504
00:23:33.386 --> 00:23:33.926
Yeah.

505
00:23:33.946 --> 00:23:43.288
We have a phrase or a theme here at Local Think Tank because we're getting into – I call what we do basically like two-parts board meeting and one-part support group.

506
00:23:43.388 --> 00:23:44.349
Yeah.

507
00:23:44.649 --> 00:23:48.110
And one of our kind of values is confront the dragon.

508
00:23:48.290 --> 00:23:48.570
Mm-hmm.

509
00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:54.595
Like, if you leave that dragon there, he's just going to keep getting bigger and bigger, you know?

510
00:23:54.655 --> 00:23:56.777
And so be brave and confront it.

511
00:23:57.257 --> 00:23:59.839
We make real boogeymen out of things we refuse to look at.

512
00:24:00.300 --> 00:24:00.540
Yeah.

513
00:24:01.501 --> 00:24:01.701
Yeah.

514
00:24:01.741 --> 00:24:02.141
Interesting.

515
00:24:02.461 --> 00:24:02.722
Okay.

516
00:24:03.102 --> 00:24:03.462
Circle back.

517
00:24:04.223 --> 00:24:05.524
So you're like, so you talk to Ben.

518
00:24:05.544 --> 00:24:10.568
He's starting to pick up two, three shifts a week on Mondays, if I recall.

519
00:24:10.908 --> 00:24:11.409
Yeah.

520
00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:15.132
And you're like, oh, this is actually pretty fun.

521
00:24:15.772 --> 00:24:16.072
Yeah.

522
00:24:16.333 --> 00:24:16.513
Or.

523
00:24:16.753 --> 00:24:16.933
Yeah.

524
00:24:17.093 --> 00:24:19.295
It was something I had to get back in touch with a little bit.

525
00:24:19.315 --> 00:24:24.338
Um, cause I was in a management role and you know, there's, I'm, you weren't even working with clients much anymore.

526
00:24:24.358 --> 00:24:24.458
Yeah.

527
00:24:24.919 --> 00:24:26.580
Or you were supervising and.

528
00:24:27.340 --> 00:24:27.881
Precisely.

529
00:24:27.921 --> 00:24:28.281
Yeah.

530
00:24:28.341 --> 00:24:37.847
I was supervising a lot of our direct care staff and, you know, it required some disciplinary things with, with patients in the program, but, um, it was like, yeah, I got to like, okay, do you forget how to ride the bike?

531
00:24:38.088 --> 00:24:38.248
No.

532
00:24:38.448 --> 00:24:38.728
Okay.

533
00:24:39.388 --> 00:24:41.250
Uh, we're, we're, we're good.

534
00:24:41.330 --> 00:24:43.651
So it was just, you know, it was a muscle I had to dust off a little bit.

535
00:24:45.037 --> 00:24:45.237
Yeah.

536
00:24:45.537 --> 00:24:46.698
And I think it was the end of 2019.

537
00:24:46.798 --> 00:24:49.560
I was like, okay, this is a good place to just call it.

538
00:24:50.601 --> 00:24:52.403
You know, just the years winding down.

539
00:24:52.423 --> 00:24:54.604
I think some things were wearing on me at that job.

540
00:24:54.965 --> 00:24:57.046
And there was just something about – Your new boss sucked.

541
00:24:57.947 --> 00:24:58.307
What's that?

542
00:24:58.367 --> 00:24:59.348
Your new boss sucked.

543
00:24:59.368 --> 00:25:00.249
The new boss sucked.

544
00:25:00.409 --> 00:25:01.590
That's what we believe.

545
00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:02.470
Yeah.

546
00:25:03.231 --> 00:25:09.335
I mean I think at the old job in particular, it was just – holding people accountable was exhausting.

547
00:25:09.436 --> 00:25:11.117
It wasn't the relationship I wanted to be having.

548
00:25:11.137 --> 00:25:12.618
I wanted to be having just generally positive friendships.

549
00:25:12.818 --> 00:25:14.800
you know, experiences and interactions with people.

550
00:25:14.861 --> 00:25:16.382
So it was time for something else.

551
00:25:16.462 --> 00:25:18.425
And we made the leap not knowing.

552
00:25:19.025 --> 00:25:19.285
Right.

553
00:25:20.347 --> 00:25:22.669
Massive uptick in demand for services.

554
00:25:22.689 --> 00:25:24.011
Yeah.

555
00:25:24.051 --> 00:25:27.615
So were you like six months later, you're both full just about.

556
00:25:28.175 --> 00:25:28.836
Oh yeah.

557
00:25:28.976 --> 00:25:31.940
Or I guess talk to me about, do you guys have kids too?

558
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:32.180
Yeah.

559
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:32.901
No, no.

560
00:25:33.001 --> 00:25:33.481
No kids.

561
00:25:33.501 --> 00:25:33.922
No kids.

562
00:25:34.042 --> 00:25:37.486
Well, that's why I was selling Ben on International Exchange students.

563
00:25:37.726 --> 00:25:38.247
Oh, that's right.

564
00:25:38.267 --> 00:25:38.667
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

565
00:25:38.687 --> 00:25:39.468
I didn't mention that.

566
00:25:39.488 --> 00:25:40.909
So we can talk about that more later.

567
00:25:40.929 --> 00:25:42.711
Yes.

568
00:25:42.731 --> 00:25:45.594
So you guys are like, let's set the stage for you.

569
00:25:45.635 --> 00:25:48.197
Were you private practice in your home?

570
00:25:48.237 --> 00:25:52.041
Did you rent an office that you were meeting patients in and stuff?

571
00:25:52.061 --> 00:25:52.222
Yeah.

572
00:25:52.702 --> 00:25:53.763
Always had an office space.

573
00:25:53.783 --> 00:25:54.123
Yes.

574
00:25:54.143 --> 00:25:54.324
Okay.

575
00:25:54.464 --> 00:25:54.584
Yep.

576
00:25:54.664 --> 00:25:56.265
We started off- Even from the start.

577
00:25:56.566 --> 00:25:57.446
Even from the start.

578
00:25:57.466 --> 00:25:57.666
Yeah.

579
00:25:57.907 --> 00:25:59.148
My office was so tiny.

580
00:25:59.228 --> 00:26:01.510
It was, you know, a broom closet essentially.

581
00:26:02.090 --> 00:26:06.995
And then when you started seeing people, you were kind of taking over slots where I wasn't working.

582
00:26:07.015 --> 00:26:07.755
Yep.

583
00:26:07.775 --> 00:26:11.499
And then in 2019, I transitioned to a lovely office, a lot more space.

584
00:26:11.959 --> 00:26:16.323
And then you came in full time and were able to get a office in that same office suite and

585
00:26:16.943 --> 00:26:21.564
Um, but yeah, by about the time you were coming in, I, I was, I was full cause I had been at it for a while.

586
00:26:21.624 --> 00:26:21.824
Yeah.

587
00:26:22.084 --> 00:26:26.545
And then with Ben, we did this weird thing where we were like, no, let's not have you take insurance.

588
00:26:26.565 --> 00:26:28.205
Cause we were trying to go that route.

589
00:26:28.225 --> 00:26:29.565
Oh, cause you were still taking insurance.

590
00:26:29.605 --> 00:26:29.845
Yep.

591
00:26:30.185 --> 00:26:33.006
And I was seeing how terrible it was and I was like, let's save you from that.

592
00:26:33.346 --> 00:26:36.626
But then Ben wasn't filling up all that quickly, even though it was COVID.

593
00:26:36.666 --> 00:26:40.787
And so then we kind of freaked out and we're like, no, you should be on insurance.

594
00:26:40.807 --> 00:26:42.687
So we did this like in out thing.

595
00:26:42.747 --> 00:26:46.308
And then ultimately like the second you got paneled with a couple of insurance people,

596
00:26:46.648 --> 00:26:49.210
companies, we were like, no, let's end those.

597
00:26:49.250 --> 00:26:51.791
So we did the hokey pokey.

598
00:26:51.851 --> 00:26:53.512
We put our right foot in.

599
00:26:53.532 --> 00:26:53.993
We took it out.

600
00:26:54.033 --> 00:27:02.137
Well, you know, that's part of like small failures that you can afford financially with business as part of the learning process.

601
00:27:02.558 --> 00:27:02.758
Yeah.

602
00:27:02.898 --> 00:27:03.378
It's a good point.

603
00:27:03.398 --> 00:27:04.819
Like how else would we have known any of this?

604
00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:07.601
You just have to venture out there and see if it's for you.

605
00:27:07.661 --> 00:27:07.881
Yeah.

606
00:27:07.901 --> 00:27:08.241
Try it.

607
00:27:08.281 --> 00:27:09.402
Yeah.

608
00:27:09.422 --> 00:27:09.742
For sure.

609
00:27:10.142 --> 00:27:10.282
Yeah.

610
00:27:10.302 --> 00:27:10.923
COVID was interesting.

611
00:27:10.943 --> 00:27:12.744
And I might have a little different memory than you.

612
00:27:13.144 --> 00:27:14.265
It was like, um, yeah.

613
00:27:15.405 --> 00:27:19.707
Things actually got really quiet around March when things were locking down and all that.

614
00:27:19.787 --> 00:27:20.767
Things were really quiet.

615
00:27:20.787 --> 00:27:22.808
And then it was like, uh-oh, it's the new guy at the practice.

616
00:27:22.868 --> 00:27:25.909
I'm like, is this – Well, you couldn't even meet with people.

617
00:27:25.929 --> 00:27:28.350
You had to Zoom right away and stuff, I imagine, right?

618
00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:31.771
We were one of the ordained businesses to stay open.

619
00:27:31.891 --> 00:27:32.471
Oh, you were?

620
00:27:32.611 --> 00:27:33.092
Okay.

621
00:27:33.152 --> 00:27:33.532
Essential.

622
00:27:33.812 --> 00:27:36.453
I was grateful for just getting out of my house if nothing else.

623
00:27:36.473 --> 00:27:37.773
Yeah.

624
00:27:37.813 --> 00:27:38.694
And a lot of our clients were too.

625
00:27:38.714 --> 00:27:39.674
They're like, I can see you in office.

626
00:27:39.694 --> 00:27:40.614
Yeah, yeah, I'll see you in office.

627
00:27:40.654 --> 00:27:40.774
Yeah.

628
00:27:40.794 --> 00:27:40.934
Yeah.

629
00:27:40.954 --> 00:27:41.435
I'll see you in office.

630
00:27:42.095 --> 00:27:42.355
Yeah.

631
00:27:42.955 --> 00:27:46.056
So it was kind of quiet for a little bit.

632
00:27:46.176 --> 00:27:48.457
And then we even see the seasonality today.

633
00:27:48.637 --> 00:27:52.538
And I think it was just like an unholy intersection of things then.

634
00:27:53.178 --> 00:27:57.440
When the days start getting shorter and it starts getting dark, people don't feel good.

635
00:27:57.580 --> 00:28:00.101
And now people have just been like inside with their families.

636
00:28:00.141 --> 00:28:03.742
Well, that summer there was like Black Lives Matter riots.

637
00:28:03.982 --> 00:28:04.242
Yeah.

638
00:28:04.262 --> 00:28:04.522
And...

639
00:28:04.742 --> 00:28:05.863
A lot of political unrest.

640
00:28:05.883 --> 00:28:07.265
A lot of political unrest.

641
00:28:07.345 --> 00:28:08.366
It was pretty dicey.

642
00:28:08.466 --> 00:28:08.767
Yeah.

643
00:28:09.167 --> 00:28:10.929
There was a lot for people to process.

644
00:28:11.109 --> 00:28:12.571
Right.

645
00:28:12.611 --> 00:28:16.195
And I just – a lot of it was relational.

646
00:28:16.235 --> 00:28:18.417
It was kids just totally losing their footing in school.

647
00:28:18.498 --> 00:28:21.441
And I think some of the best relationship I ever – Well, the fear.

648
00:28:22.162 --> 00:28:22.562
Yeah.

649
00:28:22.602 --> 00:28:25.305
You know, the fear pushing on the media was –

650
00:28:26.286 --> 00:28:30.588
But it's like, if you're not vaccinated, we're going to face a winter of death.

651
00:28:30.608 --> 00:28:33.509
People were watching the death counters.

652
00:28:33.609 --> 00:28:33.969
Right.

653
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:34.370
Yeah.

654
00:28:34.530 --> 00:28:34.750
Yeah.

655
00:28:35.230 --> 00:28:36.070
Oh, yeah.

656
00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:38.991
And there was a bit of like, it wasn't exactly falsifiable then.

657
00:28:39.032 --> 00:28:40.752
People didn't know what to expect.

658
00:28:40.772 --> 00:28:41.373
People were dying.

659
00:28:41.533 --> 00:28:41.813
Yeah.

660
00:28:42.473 --> 00:28:42.953
Yeah.

661
00:28:43.033 --> 00:28:43.373
And it was.

662
00:28:43.393 --> 00:28:46.435
And I was on the Leonard County website with my friends going, look.

663
00:28:47.655 --> 00:28:49.016
85, 79, 87, 91.

664
00:28:49.616 --> 00:28:54.318
Like trying to drop the fear level a little bit.

665
00:28:54.498 --> 00:28:59.180
It's like, dude, yes, it's dangerous, it's scary, but look at the numbers of the age.

666
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.081
Because they had an age for every person that died.

667
00:29:02.121 --> 00:29:02.442
Right.

668
00:29:03.642 --> 00:29:04.142
Yeah.

669
00:29:04.222 --> 00:29:06.283
And that was probably a disservice to the public, right?

670
00:29:06.303 --> 00:29:08.484
They did not publicly, right, just underline.

671
00:29:08.524 --> 00:29:12.386
It's like, you know, a lot of the people passing away were older than life expectancy.

672
00:29:12.406 --> 00:29:12.746
For sure.

673
00:29:12.906 --> 00:29:13.126
Yeah.

674
00:29:13.306 --> 00:29:13.486
Yeah.

675
00:29:13.686 --> 00:29:13.886
Yeah.

676
00:29:14.207 --> 00:29:14.407
So.

677
00:29:14.887 --> 00:29:15.307
So it goes.

678
00:29:15.607 --> 00:29:15.767
Yeah.

679
00:29:15.887 --> 00:29:16.407
So it goes.

680
00:29:16.427 --> 00:29:18.128
But that didn't peddle fear nearly as much.

681
00:29:18.828 --> 00:29:19.629
Yeah.

682
00:29:20.009 --> 00:29:20.249
Anyway.

683
00:29:20.489 --> 00:29:20.689
Yeah.

684
00:29:20.709 --> 00:29:21.470
Who knows?

685
00:29:21.610 --> 00:29:24.351
I, you know, I think it was just a PSYOP to test our...

686
00:29:25.768 --> 00:29:27.008
willingness to resist.

687
00:29:27.048 --> 00:29:28.929
We'll see what happens next.

688
00:29:28.949 --> 00:29:29.589
But that's just me.

689
00:29:29.629 --> 00:29:30.749
I'm a tinfoil hat guy.

690
00:29:30.909 --> 00:29:34.110
Look, regardless how this happened, it was not good for people's mental health.

691
00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:35.330
No, exactly.

692
00:29:35.350 --> 00:29:36.750
Good for your business, though.

693
00:29:36.770 --> 00:29:37.950
Eventually.

694
00:29:38.251 --> 00:29:38.971
Yeah, yeah.

695
00:29:39.011 --> 00:29:41.391
It's not how you want, why you want the business to be good.

696
00:29:41.511 --> 00:29:42.951
But yeah, you know.

697
00:29:42.971 --> 00:29:43.832
There was a demand.

698
00:29:43.952 --> 00:29:46.112
It was accelerating a rapid rate by that time.

699
00:29:46.132 --> 00:29:47.292
Like by the fall of 2020.

700
00:29:47.372 --> 00:29:48.493
Oh my gosh, yeah.

701
00:29:48.813 --> 00:29:49.673
Through the fall of 2020.

702
00:29:49.713 --> 00:29:50.133
And then...

703
00:29:51.013 --> 00:29:54.597
It seemed like things were getting better in the spring of 2021 for quite a while.

704
00:29:54.658 --> 00:29:56.099
And then, oh, just kidding.

705
00:29:56.320 --> 00:29:56.740
Yeah.

706
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:57.942
It was a long time.

707
00:29:57.982 --> 00:29:58.342
Yeah.

708
00:29:58.362 --> 00:29:58.642
Yeah.

709
00:29:58.883 --> 00:29:59.083
Yeah.

710
00:30:00.004 --> 00:30:04.009
No, it, it, um, I think it's why we go, geez, was that six years ago?

711
00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:06.432
And it's like, yeah, but the whole thing played out over a handful of years.

712
00:30:06.452 --> 00:30:06.652
Yeah.

713
00:30:06.712 --> 00:30:07.573
Yeah, it really did.

714
00:30:07.613 --> 00:30:08.414
Yeah.

715
00:30:08.434 --> 00:30:09.554
A couple anyway, nearly.

716
00:30:10.175 --> 00:30:17.161
So I guess you said it kind of like climbed steeply demand for services in general and in your practice.

717
00:30:17.201 --> 00:30:18.682
And then it just kind of stayed heavy.

718
00:30:18.822 --> 00:30:20.204
Are you taking new clients now?

719
00:30:20.224 --> 00:30:22.706
I guess hopefully some people get better.

720
00:30:23.286 --> 00:30:23.446
Yeah.

721
00:30:23.466 --> 00:30:26.029
And so you have to keep adding new ones anyway eventually.

722
00:30:26.049 --> 00:30:26.149
Yeah.

723
00:30:26.689 --> 00:30:29.252
Yeah, it was something of a blessing in disguise, right?

724
00:30:29.512 --> 00:30:35.338
For someone who was newly established and fledgling, right, to get new business was a blessing.

725
00:30:36.560 --> 00:30:37.841
Yeah, no, business has been steady.

726
00:30:37.861 --> 00:30:38.862
We are taking new clients.

727
00:30:39.383 --> 00:30:42.766
We do fix people sometimes, so we have fresh openings.

728
00:30:42.866 --> 00:30:43.967
We do.

729
00:30:44.688 --> 00:30:45.709
What is an average engagement?

730
00:30:46.630 --> 00:30:48.831
Like is it a month?

731
00:30:49.251 --> 00:30:50.612
Or is it three months?

732
00:30:50.632 --> 00:30:51.392
Like is it once a week?

733
00:30:51.412 --> 00:30:53.713
Before we answer that, here's the other thing that happened.

734
00:30:53.733 --> 00:30:55.774
So we stopped taking insurance fully at some point.

735
00:30:55.794 --> 00:30:55.994
Please.

736
00:30:56.375 --> 00:31:00.757
And so the good thing about that is people then are in charge of their own treatment.

737
00:31:00.817 --> 00:31:08.840
So when you're taking insurance, the insurance company is saying what they think is an appropriate length of treatment for your person who's never met the client.

738
00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:10.141
They haven't had an assessment yet.

739
00:31:10.461 --> 00:31:16.705
So when somebody is just paying out of pocket, they have a lot of say in how long they stick around.

740
00:31:16.745 --> 00:31:21.448
And so Ben and I have very long-term clients that are seeing us for years.

741
00:31:21.488 --> 00:31:22.809
And it's not because they didn't get better.

742
00:31:22.949 --> 00:31:24.591
They just like the maintenance aspect.

743
00:31:24.611 --> 00:31:26.032
They like to do it proactively.

744
00:31:26.072 --> 00:31:30.995
And they don't have an insurance company saying, well, you don't meet medical necessity, so we're not going to pay for this.

745
00:31:31.375 --> 00:31:33.736
So I've had clients for years.

746
00:31:34.277 --> 00:31:36.638
We have a shorter stints where people come in.

747
00:31:36.658 --> 00:31:41.961
They want to just hit it hard and get out and go live their life and then maybe pop back in for a session every once in a while.

748
00:31:42.101 --> 00:31:43.882
So it varies quite a bit.

749
00:31:43.902 --> 00:31:47.343
Well, I want to go back to Kurt's point a little bit too.

750
00:31:47.383 --> 00:31:50.345
Like it is a therapist's job to put themselves out of a job.

751
00:31:50.785 --> 00:31:51.626
Yeah.

752
00:31:51.646 --> 00:31:52.787
Like people should be getting better.

753
00:31:52.807 --> 00:31:53.708
They should be moving on.

754
00:31:53.728 --> 00:31:58.011
And, you know, we have people that see us for an acute period of time and they've resolved what they want to work on.

755
00:31:58.031 --> 00:31:59.332
And then we have our maintenance people too.

756
00:31:59.352 --> 00:32:03.516
But even our maintenance people, it's like your need to see us should be a whole lot less, a whole lot less.

757
00:32:03.916 --> 00:32:06.519
And just a good educational thing for the public, right?

758
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.581
Well, really just having a trusting conversation.

759
00:32:09.861 --> 00:32:10.862
Yes.

760
00:32:10.962 --> 00:32:12.764
You know, and seeing if there is anything there.

761
00:32:12.984 --> 00:32:23.187
Because sometimes one thing I'd like to say about Loco Think Tank, even years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, that you can kind of sometimes see yourself more clearly through the eyes of others.

762
00:32:24.067 --> 00:32:29.909
Like if you're willing to be around people and be honest in their presence, then they can see things that you just can't see.

763
00:32:30.149 --> 00:32:30.429
Right.

764
00:32:30.689 --> 00:32:30.929
Yes.

765
00:32:31.849 --> 00:32:32.669
That's so well said.

766
00:32:32.689 --> 00:32:37.572
And there's a thousand subtle little ways that therapy works that can be profound too.

767
00:32:37.652 --> 00:32:42.174
And it's like, yeah, just being – like having someone else bear witness to your experience that doesn't know your story.

768
00:32:42.414 --> 00:32:42.674
Yeah.

769
00:32:42.694 --> 00:32:43.734
Who's objective to you.

770
00:32:43.955 --> 00:32:45.115
It can be so illuminated.

771
00:32:45.215 --> 00:32:47.976
And hold that mirror up for them to see themselves.

772
00:32:47.996 --> 00:32:48.317
Yes.

773
00:32:48.357 --> 00:32:50.137
That's one of our – Even for the positive side.

774
00:32:50.157 --> 00:32:50.958
Yeah, exactly.

775
00:32:51.058 --> 00:32:53.199
Like do you – like yes, you might be depressed.

776
00:32:53.939 --> 00:32:56.102
You know what I've seen in you?

777
00:32:56.142 --> 00:33:09.076
Your ability to relay people and events, your memory, your enthusiasm when you talk about animals, whatever those things are, when you can kind of just be real and honest with them in a way that can lift them up.

778
00:33:09.396 --> 00:33:10.237
Yeah, exactly.

779
00:33:10.417 --> 00:33:11.137
In a very objective way.

780
00:33:11.197 --> 00:33:12.598
Without fluffing their skirt.

781
00:33:12.738 --> 00:33:13.439
Right, right.

782
00:33:13.479 --> 00:33:13.739
Right.

783
00:33:13.779 --> 00:33:16.801
You can't really, that isn't the job.

784
00:33:17.142 --> 00:33:17.482
Right.

785
00:33:17.982 --> 00:33:18.963
Right, you're not a cheerleader.

786
00:33:19.243 --> 00:33:20.124
Yes, exactly.

787
00:33:20.144 --> 00:33:20.864
Well said.

788
00:33:20.884 --> 00:33:22.485
You kind of are, I suppose, right?

789
00:33:22.625 --> 00:33:23.206
I believe in you.

790
00:33:23.506 --> 00:33:24.587
You can do this work.

791
00:33:26.133 --> 00:33:29.275
I feel able to say that, but you have to be able to cite the evidence for it.

792
00:33:30.556 --> 00:33:35.460
It isn't me just, what did you say, fluffing your skirt?

793
00:33:35.780 --> 00:33:36.020
Yeah.

794
00:33:36.100 --> 00:33:38.542
I mean, you want to be honest with people always.

795
00:33:39.262 --> 00:33:45.307
I often try to frame it through, you know, I want to say something positive I've noticed about you, but I'm not saying it to...

796
00:33:46.062 --> 00:33:47.844
be a cheerleader or to over inflate your ego.

797
00:33:47.904 --> 00:33:51.128
It's the, if I'm noticing it, other people probably notice it as well.

798
00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:52.430
And that's the bigger thing.

799
00:33:52.450 --> 00:33:54.973
Like, like who cares if your therapist likes you, right?

800
00:33:54.993 --> 00:33:57.436
Like, like you need to feel better about society in that.

801
00:33:57.636 --> 00:33:58.737
Most people do care.

802
00:33:58.757 --> 00:34:01.881
Well, probably to some degree.

803
00:34:01.961 --> 00:34:02.462
Probably.

804
00:34:02.482 --> 00:34:02.642
Yeah.

805
00:34:02.662 --> 00:34:02.802
Yeah.

806
00:34:03.663 --> 00:34:11.225
I'm going to guess here that a lot of your maintenance clients were heavier duty right away.

807
00:34:11.325 --> 00:34:12.145
Yes.

808
00:34:12.165 --> 00:34:21.008
I'm remembering it was relationship counseling during my early entrepreneurial years when I went from $90,000 income to zero income for business.

809
00:34:22.828 --> 00:34:47.048
longer than i would like to confess in this forum well i mean it's just the three of us right yeah just us um but there was some real problems with my self-confidence and stuff and you know kudos to jill for walking by me but like for quite a while we were at least every two weeks and maybe for a while like once a week you know and then after a couple few months it was like

810
00:34:47.288 --> 00:34:54.453
how about just once a month, you know, or that better and, you know, give us more time to work on the stuff, work between sessions and stuff.

811
00:34:55.253 --> 00:34:58.155
You started talking a lot about the cognitive behavioral therapy.

812
00:34:58.215 --> 00:34:58.856
Is that what you said?

813
00:34:59.016 --> 00:34:59.216
Yes.

814
00:35:00.116 --> 00:35:02.478
It seemed like my understanding of that was like a little bit,

815
00:35:04.461 --> 00:35:11.904
helping people recognize even both the actions and that triangle that you were talking about.

816
00:35:12.144 --> 00:35:14.765
And in this case, like, hey, I've noticed this.

817
00:35:15.265 --> 00:35:17.226
And because I'm noticing this, other people will too.

818
00:35:17.846 --> 00:35:20.247
You're allowed to exercise that.

819
00:35:20.647 --> 00:35:21.328
Yeah.

820
00:35:21.348 --> 00:35:29.934
You're allowed to see yourself when you're getting defensive right away the first time anybody says anything close to a whisper of criticism.

821
00:35:30.875 --> 00:35:38.561
Like it would be better for you if you kept your ears open longer and your mouth closed and listen more because then you could actually learn more.

822
00:35:38.882 --> 00:35:39.322
Right.

823
00:35:39.703 --> 00:35:44.747
And CBT actually goes a layer deeper and is like, well, what's your belief about that criticism?

824
00:35:45.407 --> 00:35:52.212
So if you're interpreting that criticism as I'm no good, they're just being a jerk, that's going to dictate how you feel.

825
00:35:52.413 --> 00:36:00.179
But if we can then objectively shift that belief to something more neutral, like, well, this person cares about me and they want us to be better.

826
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.361
Well, then your reactivity is much less.

827
00:36:03.802 --> 00:36:04.082
So yeah.

828
00:36:04.562 --> 00:36:08.871
Yeah, it's also about like, what are these underlying beliefs fueling the negative emotions?

829
00:36:08.891 --> 00:36:09.492
Well said, yeah.

830
00:36:11.316 --> 00:36:16.919
I will leave my own examples on the table for the moment for fear of my life.

831
00:36:17.319 --> 00:36:18.680
Email us.

832
00:36:18.700 --> 00:36:23.583
Well, you also had a great observation, Kurt, about just being like an observer.

833
00:36:23.863 --> 00:36:26.004
And I think that's a lot of what CBT is teaching people to do.

834
00:36:26.044 --> 00:36:30.946
It's like if you notice you're having a thought, you're noticing you're having a feeling, they don't dictate to you in the same way.

835
00:36:30.966 --> 00:36:32.487
It's like, I'm just feeling this right now.

836
00:36:32.507 --> 00:36:33.868
It doesn't require anything of me.

837
00:36:33.888 --> 00:36:34.949
It's just an experience.

838
00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:41.491
I'm told I get away with saying things that most people can't in a variety of ways.

839
00:36:41.591 --> 00:36:47.194
But one of my defenses is that just because I say something doesn't mean I think it.

840
00:36:47.434 --> 00:36:49.174
Right.

841
00:36:49.215 --> 00:36:55.017
I'm just floating it out there for some conversation items and seeing what other people think about me saying that thing.

842
00:36:55.437 --> 00:36:57.059
People struggle to understand that, right?

843
00:36:57.099 --> 00:36:59.381
Like we have to have a bad thought sometimes, right?

844
00:36:59.461 --> 00:36:59.761
Oh, yeah.

845
00:36:59.781 --> 00:37:03.044
To make sense, to get to what a good one is.

846
00:37:03.304 --> 00:37:03.805
Yes.

847
00:37:03.985 --> 00:37:06.828
Well, and some of those thoughts are just, they're true.

848
00:37:06.868 --> 00:37:07.488
They're just not.

849
00:37:08.617 --> 00:37:09.979
Politically correct or whatever.

850
00:37:10.419 --> 00:37:10.760
Sure.

851
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:11.060
Yes.

852
00:37:11.160 --> 00:37:11.621
Yeah.

853
00:37:11.681 --> 00:37:11.881
Yeah.

854
00:37:12.281 --> 00:37:23.835
So I guess we jumped off the train a little bit on the timeline, but really it's been kind of steady as she goes once you went full time and practice.

855
00:37:23.995 --> 00:37:28.260
And now let's get back to, and you've been thinking-

856
00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:32.382
maybe we should add somebody to the team.

857
00:37:33.042 --> 00:37:35.183
We got a harebrained scheme going now.

858
00:37:35.564 --> 00:37:46.470
We've been aware that in Fort Collins, one of the most, if not the most Googled term when it comes to searching for therapy is couples counseling or marital therapy.

859
00:37:46.570 --> 00:37:48.771
So there is obviously a need for this.

860
00:37:49.252 --> 00:37:51.373
And since we both do individual, we thought, well, maybe it would be a good thing.

861
00:37:51.473 --> 00:38:15.897
we can diversify the services that we offer and add somebody with that specific skill set i'm going to ask a question i suspect uh so you you work with a lot of students and things like that and i suspect sometimes they're talking about their parents who are paying the bills in most cases and their marital troubles and stuff too is that is that an evidentiary element to this

862
00:38:16.897 --> 00:38:18.920
Yeah, they definitely bring it up.

863
00:38:19.361 --> 00:38:21.784
Divorces, just bad relationships.

864
00:38:22.105 --> 00:38:27.713
It's generally not, at least in my experience, it's not usually a focus of treatment, but it certainly can be.

865
00:38:27.833 --> 00:38:30.136
But yeah, there's reference to those things for sure.

866
00:38:30.156 --> 00:38:31.318
Well, I'm sure that's like any...

867
00:38:32.968 --> 00:38:38.935
any reduction in stability is a risk factor, I would imagine, for that world, right?

868
00:38:38.995 --> 00:38:47.364
And so even if you're a 19- or 20-year-old college student and your folks are splitting up, that's an anxious thing.

869
00:38:47.504 --> 00:38:47.905
Yes.

870
00:38:48.225 --> 00:38:49.366
It's the stability and...

871
00:38:49.847 --> 00:38:53.169
Also kind of the template for what you're used to seeing in a relationship.

872
00:38:53.209 --> 00:38:54.330
This is where it does come up.

873
00:38:54.830 --> 00:38:58.813
We'll see patterns kind of repeated in the kids.

874
00:38:59.293 --> 00:39:03.235
You know, they never really saw what a healthy conflict resolution looks like.

875
00:39:03.275 --> 00:39:05.236
And so they just yell and scream at their partner.

876
00:39:05.276 --> 00:39:07.038
And then there's distress in that relationship.

877
00:39:07.098 --> 00:39:10.480
So people tend to kind of mimic what they've seen.

878
00:39:10.680 --> 00:39:14.002
And so in my clients, that's more what we're working on.

879
00:39:14.382 --> 00:39:15.522
Or have no conflict at all.

880
00:39:15.642 --> 00:39:17.643
Yeah, or just avoid it.

881
00:39:17.743 --> 00:39:19.563
Conflict avoidance is all I've ever seen.

882
00:39:20.283 --> 00:39:20.703
Yep.

883
00:39:20.783 --> 00:39:21.004
Fair.

884
00:39:22.464 --> 00:39:32.426
Well, let's do, I guess, unless there's anything else you want to share about the future of Evolve, would there be like a next specialty that you would add down the road after relationships?

885
00:39:32.886 --> 00:39:33.326
I've got some ideas.

886
00:39:33.346 --> 00:39:40.148
Is that the way you would build your greater practice would be to kind of like have the core and then add more specialty focused people?

887
00:39:40.168 --> 00:39:41.028
Yeah, yeah.

888
00:39:41.718 --> 00:39:42.178
I think so.

889
00:39:42.198 --> 00:39:43.880
I think we're trying not to grow too fast.

890
00:39:44.120 --> 00:39:48.704
And, you know, we've had this ability to have utter quality control right now.

891
00:39:48.864 --> 00:39:52.166
And I think we're a little anxious to let go of that, which I think a lot of small business owners are.

892
00:39:53.127 --> 00:39:58.371
But yeah, it's like, you know, can we can we start by adding one person that feels a lot like what we can offer, right?

893
00:39:58.411 --> 00:40:01.154
It's cut from the same cloth and just go from there.

894
00:40:01.174 --> 00:40:02.755
You know, gold not to be too big.

895
00:40:02.915 --> 00:40:07.036
And would they have to do all their own paperwork and administrative and stuff then?

896
00:40:07.096 --> 00:40:10.097
Or would you add an admin staff to the team soon after?

897
00:40:10.258 --> 00:40:12.298
Or how does that model work for a small firm?

898
00:40:12.318 --> 00:40:14.139
We could probably get away without.

899
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.500
Yeah, Ben and I would do some of the admin staff.

900
00:40:17.580 --> 00:40:20.001
But yeah, there wouldn't be much for them.

901
00:40:20.021 --> 00:40:21.141
There's not that much for that role.

902
00:40:21.681 --> 00:40:23.962
A lot of things are you write your notes, you get paid.

903
00:40:23.982 --> 00:40:25.063
Exactly, that's it.

904
00:40:25.083 --> 00:40:26.043
We get paid, you get paid.

905
00:40:26.283 --> 00:40:26.443
Yep.

906
00:40:26.863 --> 00:40:27.343
Done and done.

907
00:40:27.383 --> 00:40:28.464
No one's writing my notes either.

908
00:40:29.184 --> 00:40:29.984
Right.

909
00:40:30.544 --> 00:40:30.904
Fair enough.

910
00:40:31.644 --> 00:40:38.966
Okay, well, if you guys are game, I'd like to zoom back to, like, Time Machine Land, five years old.

911
00:40:39.006 --> 00:40:40.527
Who's older between the two of you?

912
00:40:41.607 --> 00:40:44.068
Oh, Kurt, you brought up a very sensitive topic.

913
00:40:44.930 --> 00:40:46.171
My birthday is August 12th.

914
00:40:46.731 --> 00:40:47.711
I was born in 1984.

915
00:40:48.652 --> 00:40:49.232
His birthday.

916
00:40:49.492 --> 00:40:51.393
August 31st, 1984.

917
00:40:51.433 --> 00:40:53.554
So I'm what?

918
00:40:53.574 --> 00:40:54.954
Not even three weeks older.

919
00:40:54.994 --> 00:40:55.915
I like it.

920
00:40:56.115 --> 00:40:57.375
Oh, but during those three weeks.

921
00:40:57.395 --> 00:40:59.996
But you're a Leo, and he's a- So different.

922
00:41:00.417 --> 00:41:00.577
Yes.

923
00:41:01.197 --> 00:41:01.997
You're a Virgo.

924
00:41:02.037 --> 00:41:03.598
Virgo, whatever that is.

925
00:41:04.638 --> 00:41:07.339
We don't really follow up astrology, but- I'm also a Leo.

926
00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:08.880
So, yes.

927
00:41:09.180 --> 00:41:10.041
Happy belated birthday.

928
00:41:10.381 --> 00:41:11.361
Thank you, thank you.

929
00:41:11.421 --> 00:41:12.281
Both of you as well.

930
00:41:13.842 --> 00:41:15.704
And so where were you, Lindsay?

931
00:41:16.164 --> 00:41:16.544
So I.

932
00:41:16.564 --> 00:41:18.286
Since you were born first chronologically.

933
00:41:18.626 --> 00:41:19.947
I grew up in Colorado Springs.

934
00:41:19.967 --> 00:41:20.208
Okay.

935
00:41:20.228 --> 00:41:20.888
Born and raised.

936
00:41:20.988 --> 00:41:21.288
Yeah.

937
00:41:21.328 --> 00:41:21.949
Five years old.

938
00:41:21.989 --> 00:41:24.111
Just hanging out in the Springs, doing my thing.

939
00:41:24.191 --> 00:41:25.632
Family doing what?

940
00:41:25.812 --> 00:41:26.273
Yeah.

941
00:41:26.333 --> 00:41:27.434
So I grew up in a household.

942
00:41:28.074 --> 00:41:28.995
Parents, younger brother.

943
00:41:29.635 --> 00:41:31.636
Um, my parents are both engineers.

944
00:41:31.716 --> 00:41:35.158
They got their degrees here at CSU in civil engineering.

945
00:41:35.378 --> 00:41:39.060
Um, so how I turned out to be a therapist is just weird, but.

946
00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:40.841
Resistance against the mold.

947
00:41:40.861 --> 00:41:41.841
I was my defiance.

948
00:41:41.861 --> 00:41:48.944
Engineers like at the Air Force or engineers at like, uh, well, there was a number of different kind of tech forward companies down there.

949
00:41:48.965 --> 00:41:50.285
My dad is geotechnical.

950
00:41:50.325 --> 00:41:51.886
So he's a soils engineer.

951
00:41:51.906 --> 00:41:54.667
So you build a building, you need to make sure the soil isn't slipping around.

952
00:41:54.687 --> 00:41:55.688
So the building collapses.

953
00:41:55.728 --> 00:41:56.028
Yeah.

954
00:41:56.588 --> 00:41:59.609
My mom got her start in like water engineering.

955
00:41:59.649 --> 00:42:00.709
Hers is complicated.

956
00:42:00.749 --> 00:42:03.770
I'm not great at explaining it, but yeah, civil stuff.

957
00:42:03.790 --> 00:42:05.430
So nerds, they were nerds.

958
00:42:05.570 --> 00:42:07.791
We give them shit that they were ingenierds.

959
00:42:07.811 --> 00:42:08.431
Don't learn that.

960
00:42:08.631 --> 00:42:12.432
But they, no, they're, they're very socially skilled and hilarious people.

961
00:42:12.492 --> 00:42:13.793
So it doesn't really fit that.

962
00:42:13.813 --> 00:42:15.013
And did you say a younger brother?

963
00:42:15.273 --> 00:42:16.114
Younger brother, yeah.

964
00:42:16.134 --> 00:42:16.234
Okay.

965
00:42:16.254 --> 00:42:18.075
Yeah, so he's three years younger than I.

966
00:42:18.155 --> 00:42:20.336
And then you're fairly tall.

967
00:42:20.536 --> 00:42:20.876
Yeah.

968
00:42:20.896 --> 00:42:22.817
Were you tall early, it seems possible?

969
00:42:22.978 --> 00:42:25.599
No, I didn't hit my growth spurt until high school.

970
00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:25.999
Oh, is that right?

971
00:42:26.019 --> 00:42:27.000
So pretty average.

972
00:42:27.020 --> 00:42:28.141
Interesting.

973
00:42:28.161 --> 00:42:29.721
But yeah, very athletic family.

974
00:42:29.862 --> 00:42:30.082
Okay.

975
00:42:30.102 --> 00:42:34.464
So grew up playing sports and super competitive with soccer and swimming.

976
00:42:34.504 --> 00:42:35.085
Good grades.

977
00:42:35.665 --> 00:42:36.245
Very good grades.

978
00:42:36.265 --> 00:42:38.146
My parents, they're smart cookies.

979
00:42:38.687 --> 00:42:40.108
They never put a ton of pressure.

980
00:42:40.128 --> 00:42:41.768
It was more self-induced for me.

981
00:42:41.909 --> 00:42:44.330
And so, yes, very academically required.

982
00:42:44.550 --> 00:43:04.773
oriented and um getting those good grades that was important to me so yeah and then let's go to ben before we consider the college uh maybe you came up here i don't know i was in the far-off land of the mid-atlantic um yeah families from southwestern pennsylvania originally um i didn't live there very western that's like oil country and stuff right

983
00:43:04.973 --> 00:43:05.975
Yeah, coal.

984
00:43:06.395 --> 00:43:07.036
Yeah, coal in oil.

985
00:43:07.056 --> 00:43:08.659
Yeah, yeah, outside of Pittsburgh.

986
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.121
Okay, yeah, yeah.

987
00:43:10.141 --> 00:43:11.924
Let's go Steelers.

988
00:43:12.265 --> 00:43:15.550
And yeah, my family moved to – what's that?

989
00:43:15.630 --> 00:43:16.772
I said I like the Steelers too.

990
00:43:16.872 --> 00:43:17.032
No.

991
00:43:17.052 --> 00:43:17.373
Just saying.

992
00:43:17.513 --> 00:43:19.055
We're just now figuring this out.

993
00:43:19.156 --> 00:43:19.496
Oh.

994
00:43:20.297 --> 00:43:21.737
My brother's a big Steelers fan.

995
00:43:22.097 --> 00:43:22.978
I'm an adjacent.

996
00:43:22.998 --> 00:43:23.378
I'm going to go.

997
00:43:23.818 --> 00:43:29.239
Like, for me, it's the Vikings, Broncos, Patriots, kind of.

998
00:43:29.279 --> 00:43:29.779
What?

999
00:43:29.919 --> 00:43:30.479
I just like them.

1000
00:43:30.499 --> 00:43:31.079
Very eclectic.

1001
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:31.639
And the Steelers.

1002
00:43:31.759 --> 00:43:32.559
And the Steelers.

1003
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:33.600
You're from North Dakota?

1004
00:43:33.860 --> 00:43:34.220
Correct.

1005
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:34.660
Yeah.

1006
00:43:34.700 --> 00:43:37.040
So it's like, you know, Vikings are a likely leap.

1007
00:43:37.060 --> 00:43:38.561
But then I guess you guys can kind of adopt.

1008
00:43:38.941 --> 00:43:39.221
Yeah.

1009
00:43:39.261 --> 00:43:42.001
Well, I've been living here for 20 years, 25 years almost.

1010
00:43:42.061 --> 00:43:44.062
So Broncos are kind of adopted.

1011
00:43:44.082 --> 00:43:45.582
I even like the Packers.

1012
00:43:45.882 --> 00:43:46.042
Huh.

1013
00:43:46.448 --> 00:43:46.608
Yeah.

1014
00:43:46.768 --> 00:43:46.948
Yeah.

1015
00:43:47.448 --> 00:43:48.589
Anyone but the Cowboys, man.

1016
00:43:48.689 --> 00:43:49.229
Yeah, for sure.

1017
00:43:50.470 --> 00:43:50.790
Anyway.

1018
00:43:51.430 --> 00:43:51.870
Anyways.

1019
00:43:51.890 --> 00:43:52.631
So, steal the country.

1020
00:43:52.651 --> 00:43:53.391
So glad we got on that.

1021
00:43:55.252 --> 00:43:55.592
Yeah.

1022
00:43:55.632 --> 00:43:56.212
Yeah.

1023
00:43:56.272 --> 00:43:57.933
Just working class family.

1024
00:43:58.013 --> 00:44:00.214
Like, kind of different than Lindsay in that way.

1025
00:44:00.254 --> 00:44:04.496
Like, you know, my dad was a general contractor for a living, but swung a hammer.

1026
00:44:04.656 --> 00:44:06.036
For a company, not his own firm.

1027
00:44:06.137 --> 00:44:06.697
For his own firm.

1028
00:44:06.717 --> 00:44:07.437
Oh, for his own firm.

1029
00:44:07.497 --> 00:44:07.637
Yeah.

1030
00:44:07.657 --> 00:44:09.058
So you had an entrepreneurial background.

1031
00:44:09.078 --> 00:44:09.258
Yeah.

1032
00:44:09.278 --> 00:44:09.498
Yeah.

1033
00:44:09.618 --> 00:44:10.638
Yeah, definitely.

1034
00:44:10.778 --> 00:44:15.499
And again, models and templates you grow up around definitely had an influence.

1035
00:44:15.579 --> 00:44:19.560
Like doing remodels and stuff or building whole houses or kind of whatever?

1036
00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:21.281
He did at least one of everything.

1037
00:44:22.541 --> 00:44:25.122
Yeah, but he had whole home builds at points.

1038
00:44:25.182 --> 00:44:29.583
But yeah, a lot of remodels, additions, but it could be –

1039
00:44:29.963 --> 00:44:34.386
Everything from just a painting job or putting on a deck or I can go on.

1040
00:44:34.546 --> 00:44:35.466
Jack of all trades.

1041
00:44:35.686 --> 00:44:37.007
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

1042
00:44:37.047 --> 00:44:39.689
And your mom worked or stayed watching you guys?

1043
00:44:39.769 --> 00:44:43.151
Yeah, mom watched us initially and then would work later.

1044
00:44:43.171 --> 00:44:49.674
Yeah, and she always found her way into jobs kind of just like adjacent like hospital support staff and things like that.

1045
00:44:49.714 --> 00:44:50.855
She was a phlebotomist.

1046
00:44:51.455 --> 00:44:52.035
Uh, for a while.

1047
00:44:52.075 --> 00:44:52.635
And it's so funny.

1048
00:44:52.655 --> 00:44:54.896
Everyone goes, oh, how long did she have to go to school to do that?

1049
00:44:54.916 --> 00:44:56.036
And you're like, two weeks.

1050
00:44:56.396 --> 00:44:56.797
Yeah.

1051
00:44:57.557 --> 00:44:57.877
Yeah.

1052
00:44:57.917 --> 00:44:58.397
Or something.

1053
00:44:58.417 --> 00:44:58.577
Yeah.

1054
00:44:58.777 --> 00:45:05.719
And even to this day, if, if, if you're in the, uh, uh, Prescott Valley hospital and you need a blood draw, you want Lori to do it.

1055
00:45:05.839 --> 00:45:06.059
All right.

1056
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:06.899
She's the best stick.

1057
00:45:06.919 --> 00:45:07.860
She finds the vein.

1058
00:45:08.260 --> 00:45:08.580
Yeah.

1059
00:45:09.940 --> 00:45:17.044
The Matthews House way back in the day had a phlebotomy training program after we merged with Education Life Training Center.

1060
00:45:17.324 --> 00:45:17.705
Yeah.

1061
00:45:17.965 --> 00:45:19.145
And so I don't know.

1062
00:45:19.245 --> 00:45:19.706
It's a good game.

1063
00:45:19.726 --> 00:45:20.706
It was probably more than two weeks.

1064
00:45:21.126 --> 00:45:23.688
But to do it good is different.

1065
00:45:23.848 --> 00:45:25.329
But here's a real skill, right?

1066
00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:26.069
Oh, yeah.

1067
00:45:26.109 --> 00:45:26.269
Yeah.

1068
00:45:26.570 --> 00:45:28.571
You don't need tons of investment or time in college.

1069
00:45:28.591 --> 00:45:28.851
Yep.

1070
00:45:28.991 --> 00:45:29.251
Yep.

1071
00:45:29.451 --> 00:45:30.612
And it's necessary.

1072
00:45:30.632 --> 00:45:30.812
Yeah.

1073
00:45:30.992 --> 00:45:31.172
Needed.

1074
00:45:31.452 --> 00:45:35.675
And my mom would later go back to school when I was in graduate school to become an RN.

1075
00:45:35.895 --> 00:45:36.235
Oh, wow.

1076
00:45:36.255 --> 00:45:36.755
Good for her.

1077
00:45:36.875 --> 00:45:37.476
Yeah.

1078
00:45:37.496 --> 00:45:37.976
Cheers, mom.

1079
00:45:38.076 --> 00:45:39.437
And siblings for you?

1080
00:45:39.744 --> 00:45:41.087
Yeah, one younger brother as well.

1081
00:45:41.587 --> 00:45:42.349
Two years younger.

1082
00:45:42.589 --> 00:45:43.591
Okay.

1083
00:45:43.731 --> 00:45:48.460
But yeah, just – Also academically driven, athletic?

1084
00:45:49.542 --> 00:45:49.783
Yeah.

1085
00:45:49.823 --> 00:45:49.923
Yes.

1086
00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:55.343
No, we definitely had like, you know, you need to get good grades, A's and B's.

1087
00:45:55.403 --> 00:45:57.064
And, you know, that's generally what happened.

1088
00:45:57.104 --> 00:45:58.205
Yeah.

1089
00:45:58.245 --> 00:45:59.586
Athletic background as well.

1090
00:46:00.087 --> 00:46:03.290
Started playing soccer and then found our way into hockey as we got older.

1091
00:46:03.310 --> 00:46:03.510
Okay.

1092
00:46:03.530 --> 00:46:04.851
You're talking about you and your brother?

1093
00:46:04.871 --> 00:46:04.951
Yep.

1094
00:46:05.151 --> 00:46:05.912
Yep.

1095
00:46:06.492 --> 00:46:08.814
And if anyone knows my brother, he's a mountain of a man.

1096
00:46:08.875 --> 00:46:11.477
He's like 6'5 and, you know, well over 200.

1097
00:46:11.677 --> 00:46:12.037
Really?

1098
00:46:12.097 --> 00:46:15.320
If this guy puts you in the glass, like I was so glad we were just on the scene.

1099
00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:18.443
How old were you when he passed you size-wise?

1100
00:46:18.563 --> 00:46:19.364
That's the question.

1101
00:46:19.884 --> 00:46:20.705
A long time ago.

1102
00:46:20.725 --> 00:46:22.848
A long time ago.

1103
00:46:22.868 --> 00:46:23.749
Like when he was 11.

1104
00:46:23.869 --> 00:46:25.992
Way before.

1105
00:46:26.032 --> 00:46:26.472
Way before.

1106
00:46:26.592 --> 00:46:29.436
So we were probably about the same height when I was like seven or eight.

1107
00:46:29.656 --> 00:46:30.938
And then it was just, you know.

1108
00:46:31.398 --> 00:46:32.620
And that's so hard when you're young.

1109
00:46:32.680 --> 00:46:35.023
It's like your little brother is bigger than you.

1110
00:46:35.043 --> 00:46:36.224
And you can't take it.

1111
00:46:36.264 --> 00:46:36.985
You can't take it.

1112
00:46:38.186 --> 00:46:39.506
Was that troublesome to you?

1113
00:46:39.566 --> 00:46:42.987
Like anxiety-inducing, depression?

1114
00:46:43.588 --> 00:46:44.828
I mean, you know, I got by.

1115
00:46:44.848 --> 00:46:45.128
Okay.

1116
00:46:46.108 --> 00:46:47.328
You had enough other attributes.

1117
00:46:47.409 --> 00:46:49.329
When you have the ego of a child, right?

1118
00:46:49.349 --> 00:46:51.009
No, it's an interesting thing, I'm sure.

1119
00:46:51.089 --> 00:46:55.351
Yeah, you tie like, well, I'm supposed to be better in all ways because I'm older and more knowledgeable.

1120
00:46:55.471 --> 00:46:55.771
Right.

1121
00:46:55.791 --> 00:46:58.912
You know, you get down the road and two years doesn't mean anything to anybody.

1122
00:46:59.012 --> 00:46:59.412
For sure.

1123
00:46:59.912 --> 00:47:00.372
Interesting.

1124
00:47:00.892 --> 00:47:05.455
So let's go back to you, Lindsay, to the, am I going to college?

1125
00:47:05.495 --> 00:47:06.295
Where am I going?

1126
00:47:06.375 --> 00:47:08.677
Like, what was your setting at the time?

1127
00:47:08.697 --> 00:47:08.797
Yeah.

1128
00:47:09.237 --> 00:47:10.318
At the end of high school?

1129
00:47:10.658 --> 00:47:12.739
I always knew I was going to college.

1130
00:47:12.919 --> 00:47:14.240
That was pretty important to my parents.

1131
00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:14.460
Sure.

1132
00:47:14.520 --> 00:47:19.023
And there was never really a discussion of, like, you're just going to go work after high school.

1133
00:47:19.063 --> 00:47:19.423
No.

1134
00:47:19.623 --> 00:47:20.704
College was always the thing.

1135
00:47:21.704 --> 00:47:23.225
My journey is maybe a little different.

1136
00:47:23.945 --> 00:47:27.347
So growing up, very much participating in competitive soccer.

1137
00:47:27.447 --> 00:47:29.448
And so I was actually recruited.

1138
00:47:29.688 --> 00:47:33.910
So I decided to go to the University of Northern Colorado on a scholarship.

1139
00:47:34.271 --> 00:47:37.812
Well, it was actually, yeah, it was academic and athletic scholarship.

1140
00:47:37.892 --> 00:47:39.493
So that's how I ended up there.

1141
00:47:39.533 --> 00:47:40.934
And we're going to go to the University of Northern Colorado.

1142
00:47:41.014 --> 00:47:52.542
played soccer for a mighty three games into my freshman year tore my acl for the first time so um but yeah that's how i decided college it was more athletic based than anything yeah

1143
00:47:53.502 --> 00:47:55.844
And did you stay there for your full education?

1144
00:47:55.864 --> 00:48:05.050
Yeah, finished out my undergraduate degree at UNC, and then they had a really well-renowned clinical counseling program at the time, and so just hung out there.

1145
00:48:05.610 --> 00:48:09.733
And did you move up there, lived on campus?

1146
00:48:09.813 --> 00:48:15.157
What was that, like, I'm kind of Fort Collins famous, but really less so.

1147
00:48:15.197 --> 00:48:18.099
Tell me about arriving on campus, and what was the...

1148
00:48:18.699 --> 00:48:22.462
The scene, like, so I'm a North Dakota State graduate.

1149
00:48:22.522 --> 00:48:27.307
So back in my college days, we were actually rivals with UNC in Division II football.

1150
00:48:27.347 --> 00:48:33.612
Yeah, UNC, just being a little bit smaller, I didn't find it to be particularly overwhelming, but...

1151
00:48:34.793 --> 00:48:38.934
Yeah, pretty typical in terms of the academics, the campus, the house parties.

1152
00:48:38.994 --> 00:48:41.575
I mean, I don't think there's anything necessarily too remarkable.

1153
00:48:41.595 --> 00:48:44.956
Not that much different than my experience in Fargo or somebody else's in Fort Collins.

1154
00:48:44.996 --> 00:48:47.337
And I spent a ton of time here in Fort Collins.

1155
00:48:47.377 --> 00:48:49.498
A lot of my high school friends went to CSU.

1156
00:48:49.558 --> 00:48:51.859
So I was up here in Fort Collins a lot.

1157
00:48:51.879 --> 00:48:51.979
Fair.

1158
00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:53.439
I consider myself an honorary man.

1159
00:48:53.459 --> 00:48:56.860
You might have slept on some dorm floors and stuff like that here and there.

1160
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:57.881
Maybe every once in a while.

1161
00:48:58.821 --> 00:48:59.562
Fair.

1162
00:49:00.302 --> 00:49:01.023
And how about you, Ben?

1163
00:49:01.063 --> 00:49:03.865
What was that setting or stage for you at the moment?

1164
00:49:03.985 --> 00:49:04.566
Yeah, yeah.

1165
00:49:04.606 --> 00:49:09.750
No, there was definitely an expectation from my family that I'd go to college and there was like, you know, hey, we didn't have the college experience.

1166
00:49:09.810 --> 00:49:10.710
We want that for you.

1167
00:49:10.911 --> 00:49:11.511
Yeah.

1168
00:49:11.631 --> 00:49:14.693
I chose it was a little private school and like kind of.

1169
00:49:15.654 --> 00:49:16.835
Appalachia, Virginia.

1170
00:49:16.855 --> 00:49:17.395
Okay.

1171
00:49:17.595 --> 00:49:18.736
It's called Bridgewater College.

1172
00:49:18.756 --> 00:49:19.316
It's like 1,500 students.

1173
00:49:19.336 --> 00:49:20.456
Oh, I've heard of it actually.

1174
00:49:20.516 --> 00:49:20.977
No kidding.

1175
00:49:20.997 --> 00:49:22.177
Yeah.

1176
00:49:22.838 --> 00:49:29.241
And yeah, just – and definitely a big part of my decision to go to a school that size, it really was the size.

1177
00:49:29.281 --> 00:49:37.045
Like I was a pretty socially anxious kid, just kind of shy and I was like, how am I going to do – Because your little brother was bigger than you all those years.

1178
00:49:37.065 --> 00:49:37.565
Oh my god.

1179
00:49:37.585 --> 00:49:38.405
What did you want me to do?

1180
00:49:38.425 --> 00:49:38.605
Yeah.

1181
00:49:40.046 --> 00:49:45.929
So it was like that felt way more approachable than like, yeah, I'm going to go to some 30,000 student body.

1182
00:49:46.229 --> 00:49:47.630
So that helped.

1183
00:49:47.650 --> 00:49:48.710
And I grew a lot there.

1184
00:49:48.750 --> 00:49:49.491
And it's funny.

1185
00:49:49.511 --> 00:49:50.851
I talk to people all day long now.

1186
00:49:51.392 --> 00:49:51.692
Right.

1187
00:49:51.712 --> 00:49:53.773
Despite being reserved in my youth.

1188
00:49:53.953 --> 00:49:56.854
Yeah.

1189
00:49:57.695 --> 00:50:00.936
And what turn of events led to you guys finding each other?

1190
00:50:00.956 --> 00:50:04.478
I guess you came out to Colorado was the most important thing, huh, Ben?

1191
00:50:04.558 --> 00:50:05.038
That's true.

1192
00:50:05.098 --> 00:50:05.418
Yeah.

1193
00:50:05.638 --> 00:50:08.760
We knew each other in graduate school but weren't romantically involved then.

1194
00:50:08.980 --> 00:50:11.561
Okay, so you came out here for graduate school to UNC?

1195
00:50:11.641 --> 00:50:11.801
Yep.

1196
00:50:12.742 --> 00:50:12.942
Yeah.

1197
00:50:13.242 --> 00:50:14.422
Do I tell the whole story or do I?

1198
00:50:14.703 --> 00:50:15.023
Sure.

1199
00:50:15.063 --> 00:50:15.883
Yeah, okay.

1200
00:50:16.623 --> 00:50:17.204
Scandalous.

1201
00:50:17.244 --> 00:50:17.704
Yeah.

1202
00:50:17.964 --> 00:50:19.565
I had a long-term college girlfriend.

1203
00:50:19.845 --> 00:50:19.985
Oh.

1204
00:50:20.065 --> 00:50:21.626
Yeah, spoiler alert, didn't work out.

1205
00:50:21.826 --> 00:50:23.546
But nice person.

1206
00:50:23.566 --> 00:50:25.107
Because you found this beautiful blonde.

1207
00:50:25.727 --> 00:50:27.168
It was nothing scandalous like that.

1208
00:50:27.248 --> 00:50:28.008
Okay.

1209
00:50:28.449 --> 00:50:30.189
But the galley dating.

1210
00:50:30.209 --> 00:50:31.330
Long-term relationship are hard.

1211
00:50:31.930 --> 00:50:32.931
Yeah.

1212
00:50:33.151 --> 00:50:33.351
Yeah.

1213
00:50:33.391 --> 00:50:33.911
No, totally.

1214
00:50:33.951 --> 00:50:37.273
And just like you're evolving and becoming another person into your mid-20s.

1215
00:50:37.353 --> 00:50:44.157
It's like, OK, I think this is real adult me and some of that social anxiety is going away and this stuff is sorting itself out.

1216
00:50:44.237 --> 00:50:47.618
So – but she studied Southwest archaeology.

1217
00:50:47.999 --> 00:50:50.120
So if it weren't for that, I was following her.

1218
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.182
Down to Arizona or New Mexico or something.

1219
00:50:53.322 --> 00:50:54.022
Or Colorado.

1220
00:50:54.142 --> 00:50:55.383
Yeah.

1221
00:50:55.403 --> 00:50:57.604
So those were basically the three places we could have ended up.

1222
00:50:58.064 --> 00:50:58.565
Fair.

1223
00:50:58.685 --> 00:50:58.925
Yeah.

1224
00:50:58.945 --> 00:51:00.726
So if it weren't for that, I wouldn't live here.

1225
00:51:01.066 --> 00:51:03.448
And yeah, funny enough, like it didn't work out.

1226
00:51:03.608 --> 00:51:05.909
She went back east and I'm still here.

1227
00:51:05.969 --> 00:51:06.330
And then?

1228
00:51:06.350 --> 00:51:06.870
Yeah.

1229
00:51:07.230 --> 00:51:07.710
Yeah.

1230
00:51:07.770 --> 00:51:10.971
So in grad school, I was actually with somebody else as well.

1231
00:51:11.031 --> 00:51:13.271
But Ben and I had some group projects together.

1232
00:51:13.291 --> 00:51:16.852
We were always, you know, fond of each other, knew each other, but never hung out.

1233
00:51:17.512 --> 00:51:27.975
But after we had both graduated, maybe a year after that, my mom was telling me, Lindsay, you need to try online dating.

1234
00:51:28.435 --> 00:51:29.635
You need to give this a go.

1235
00:51:29.655 --> 00:51:31.396
And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not doing it.

1236
00:51:37.237 --> 00:51:38.518
You're like, let's build your profile.

1237
00:51:38.538 --> 00:51:39.119
Exactly.

1238
00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:40.600
I was like, oh, it's happening.

1239
00:51:40.660 --> 00:51:41.080
Okay.

1240
00:51:41.321 --> 00:51:45.324
And this is, you know, not in its infancy, but not as prolific as it is now.

1241
00:51:45.364 --> 00:51:48.987
Have you ever seen that video where it shows, like, how people met their spouse?

1242
00:51:49.808 --> 00:51:50.488
Like, over time?

1243
00:51:50.788 --> 00:51:51.089
Yeah.

1244
00:51:51.149 --> 00:51:51.449
Yeah.

1245
00:51:51.789 --> 00:51:55.072
And, like, online dating is, like, this little thing, and then it's like, boo.

1246
00:51:57.174 --> 00:52:01.415
And nobody barely meets them through family or at bars or other ways anymore.

1247
00:52:01.435 --> 00:52:02.596
See, we were pioneers.

1248
00:52:02.636 --> 00:52:04.776
Yeah, you were pioneers.

1249
00:52:05.136 --> 00:52:09.558
We got my profile built, and my friend's like, let's look at the local talent in Fort Collins.

1250
00:52:09.578 --> 00:52:14.439
So we just start perusing these profiles, and Ben's picture pops out.

1251
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:16.840
And she was in our graduate program, too.

1252
00:52:16.900 --> 00:52:18.160
And so we're like, is that Ben?

1253
00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:18.880
Ben?

1254
00:52:19.060 --> 00:52:19.621
Is that Ben?

1255
00:52:19.661 --> 00:52:22.541
And so we're staring at it, and we're like, no, that's definitely Ben.

1256
00:52:22.561 --> 00:52:24.422
You swipe right?

1257
00:52:25.302 --> 00:52:25.483
Yeah.

1258
00:52:25.603 --> 00:52:27.644
Oh, it wasn't Tinger yet.

1259
00:52:27.925 --> 00:52:28.605
Just kidding.

1260
00:52:29.746 --> 00:52:31.368
I sent him an email a couple of days later.

1261
00:52:31.388 --> 00:52:34.270
I was like, hey, man, what's, how, how, how's life treating you?

1262
00:52:34.290 --> 00:52:35.711
What are you doing after school?

1263
00:52:35.731 --> 00:52:38.314
It sounds like you broke up with your longtime, long-term sister, man.

1264
00:52:38.374 --> 00:52:39.795
It must not have worked out.

1265
00:52:40.195 --> 00:52:42.958
I should send her a fruit basket for dragging you out here.

1266
00:52:43.938 --> 00:52:45.680
It's, it's one of those karmic things, right?

1267
00:52:45.700 --> 00:52:47.622
I probably would have just stayed somewhere nearby.

1268
00:52:47.642 --> 00:52:47.742
Yeah.

1269
00:52:48.362 --> 00:52:48.643
Yeah.

1270
00:52:48.803 --> 00:52:49.224
Yeah.

1271
00:52:49.284 --> 00:52:51.607
So we went on a date.

1272
00:52:51.927 --> 00:52:53.409
I thought we were just like catching up.

1273
00:52:53.489 --> 00:52:57.434
I wasn't really intended to be anything romantic, but we got along great.

1274
00:52:57.775 --> 00:52:59.237
Well, what is a first date, right?

1275
00:52:59.257 --> 00:53:00.679
I mean, we're just catching up, right?

1276
00:53:00.999 --> 00:53:01.239
Yeah.

1277
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:05.024
Well, if you're looking for a long-term relationship, you're probably hoping not to get lucky.

1278
00:53:05.745 --> 00:53:06.506
On the first date.

1279
00:53:06.566 --> 00:53:06.986
Right.

1280
00:53:07.206 --> 00:53:10.508
And it wasn't really those kind of profiles available at the time.

1281
00:53:10.568 --> 00:53:10.989
Yeah, yeah.

1282
00:53:11.009 --> 00:53:13.971
So it introduced you to someone I already knew.

1283
00:53:14.091 --> 00:53:14.351
Yeah.

1284
00:53:14.491 --> 00:53:15.132
Very cool.

1285
00:53:15.152 --> 00:53:15.692
Uh-huh.

1286
00:53:15.772 --> 00:53:21.636
And how long before it was, like, confirmed a serious relationship headed somewhere?

1287
00:53:21.816 --> 00:53:22.336
Yeah.

1288
00:53:22.997 --> 00:53:23.357
Geez.

1289
00:53:23.677 --> 00:53:26.319
We were dating about four years when I proposed.

1290
00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:27.400
Oh, wow.

1291
00:53:27.540 --> 00:53:28.521
We took our sweet time.

1292
00:53:28.541 --> 00:53:28.641
Yeah.

1293
00:53:29.241 --> 00:53:31.082
Just because you were scared she was going to say no.

1294
00:53:32.063 --> 00:53:34.344
Yeah, and she might find out my brother's taller than me.

1295
00:53:36.425 --> 00:53:37.245
It's totally it.

1296
00:53:37.265 --> 00:53:38.466
That's awesome.

1297
00:53:39.246 --> 00:53:41.447
Well, I, for what, am glad that you found each other.

1298
00:53:42.008 --> 00:53:44.269
And how long, when did you get married?

1299
00:53:44.449 --> 00:53:44.909
2015.

1300
00:53:45.209 --> 00:53:45.850
Okay.

1301
00:53:45.870 --> 00:53:47.190
So you just passed 10.

1302
00:53:47.250 --> 00:53:48.291
You're coming up on 11 shortly.

1303
00:53:48.471 --> 00:53:48.811
Yeah, yeah.

1304
00:53:48.831 --> 00:53:49.071
All right.

1305
00:53:49.091 --> 00:53:49.712
Well, congratulations.

1306
00:53:49.752 --> 00:53:50.332
Thank you.

1307
00:53:50.472 --> 00:53:50.892
Thank you.

1308
00:53:52.655 --> 00:53:54.978
This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank.

1309
00:53:55.319 --> 00:53:58.403
Loco Think Tank provides peer collaboration for business owners.

1310
00:53:58.723 --> 00:54:05.332
We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with.

1311
00:54:05.812 --> 00:54:10.038
Our model features gift-back-minded business veterans in the role of Loco facilitators,

1312
00:54:10.478 --> 00:54:17.860
And we're always looking for abundance-minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, local community, or to feature on this podcast.

1313
00:54:18.180 --> 00:54:23.702
Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free.

1314
00:54:23.922 --> 00:54:26.903
Just mention the Loco Experience podcast on your application.

1315
00:54:27.784 --> 00:54:30.925
To learn more, visit our website at locothinktank.com.

1316
00:54:31.165 --> 00:54:33.845
That's L-O-C-O thinktank.com.

1317
00:54:35.386 --> 00:54:35.666
Yeah.

1318
00:54:35.686 --> 00:54:38.007
Like, there's a lot of trends in...

1319
00:54:39.981 --> 00:54:47.347
Like therapy counseling and stuff about like ketamine stuff and Ibogaine and mushroom trips and journeys.

1320
00:54:47.448 --> 00:54:47.888
Yes.

1321
00:54:48.168 --> 00:54:53.673
Especially for very, very traumatic stuff it seems like is where that's really at.

1322
00:54:53.733 --> 00:54:59.918
But what's your counseling professional's perspective on that kind of engagement?

1323
00:55:00.258 --> 00:55:00.359
Yeah.

1324
00:55:00.379 --> 00:55:00.779
Yeah.

1325
00:55:01.935 --> 00:55:07.697
I mean, it's moving – it's on the move as we're understanding it, right?

1326
00:55:07.737 --> 00:55:08.557
We're practicing it.

1327
00:55:09.198 --> 00:55:12.319
The jury is very – Being defined as we talk, as we speak.

1328
00:55:12.459 --> 00:55:15.640
And we're not prescribers of any sorts, so it's here nor there.

1329
00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:19.321
But we've definitely had clients that are like, yeah, I want to do something psychedelic-assisted.

1330
00:55:19.341 --> 00:55:21.902
And we usually have them do that with someone that facilitates that.

1331
00:55:21.942 --> 00:55:23.883
Like, again, we believe in specialization.

1332
00:55:24.003 --> 00:55:24.663
You encourage them to – Yeah.

1333
00:55:24.683 --> 00:55:24.783
Yeah.

1334
00:55:25.683 --> 00:55:28.265
I got this guy, Joe, that grows mushrooms.

1335
00:55:28.365 --> 00:55:29.806
So cool.

1336
00:55:30.026 --> 00:55:30.607
They are it.

1337
00:55:32.808 --> 00:55:39.392
But yeah, there's kind of this idea of these experiences can help just separate from the ego a little bit.

1338
00:55:39.492 --> 00:55:47.197
You know, an ego quickly defined as anything you say, I dot, dot, dot, which can be a positive or a negative sentiment.

1339
00:55:47.237 --> 00:55:47.957
But of course for –

1340
00:55:49.278 --> 00:55:53.421
For matters of trauma and things like that, of course, it tends to be a more negative belief about the self.

1341
00:55:53.541 --> 00:55:55.622
So it's like, yeah, we can get a little distance from that.

1342
00:55:55.642 --> 00:55:58.624
And we were talking earlier about like you want to have that view.

1343
00:55:58.664 --> 00:56:00.145
You want to observe things, right?

1344
00:56:00.305 --> 00:56:03.306
And sometimes the wound is so deep it's hard to do that.

1345
00:56:03.907 --> 00:56:04.147
Yeah.

1346
00:56:04.387 --> 00:56:04.647
Yeah.

1347
00:56:05.308 --> 00:56:05.608
Yeah.

1348
00:56:05.688 --> 00:56:09.390
The research is still very new on this as it stands now.

1349
00:56:10.194 --> 00:56:17.375
as far as I'm aware, the FDA has only approved ketamine for really, really severe depression and suicidality.

1350
00:56:17.395 --> 00:56:17.636
Okay.

1351
00:56:17.816 --> 00:56:19.856
Everything else is not FDA approved.

1352
00:56:20.136 --> 00:56:26.737
There's clinical trials and there's research emerging, but what's actually FDA approved is very, very limited.

1353
00:56:26.757 --> 00:56:27.078
Gotcha.

1354
00:56:27.178 --> 00:56:33.679
So there are these clinics popping up right and left, and there's a lot of interest in this, but the research backing...

1355
00:56:35.919 --> 00:57:03.688
juries out there's some preliminary stuff that looks promising but anecdotally i i've had clients that have used psilocybin or they've done ketamine and they've had really negative experiences so i think i think it's mixed results and we need to we need to know more yeah yeah not to generalize that but right you know yeah it's not always like i was kind of surprised uh former texas governor rick perry was on somebody's podcast like rogan or lex friedman or something talking about

1356
00:57:04.268 --> 00:57:05.789
I want to say it was the Ibogaine stuff.

1357
00:57:06.089 --> 00:57:06.589
Yeah.

1358
00:57:06.649 --> 00:57:10.311
And getting that some level of like federal approval for that kind of thing.

1359
00:57:10.391 --> 00:57:11.371
I was like, wow, that's wild.

1360
00:57:11.391 --> 00:57:14.473
Because he was like kind of a right winger back in the day.

1361
00:57:14.493 --> 00:57:14.593
Sure.

1362
00:57:14.613 --> 00:57:14.773
Right?

1363
00:57:14.853 --> 00:57:17.754
And that has become the party of we don't do weird shit.

1364
00:57:17.774 --> 00:57:18.095
Right.

1365
00:57:18.115 --> 00:57:18.615
Since Nixon.

1366
00:57:18.635 --> 00:57:19.055
Right.

1367
00:57:19.155 --> 00:57:19.415
Yeah.

1368
00:57:19.475 --> 00:57:19.936
Right, right.

1369
00:57:19.956 --> 00:57:20.996
Very, very buttoned down.

1370
00:57:21.236 --> 00:57:21.777
Right, right.

1371
00:57:21.837 --> 00:57:22.177
Exactly.

1372
00:57:22.197 --> 00:57:22.717
Traditionally.

1373
00:57:22.877 --> 00:57:23.638
Yeah, yeah.

1374
00:57:23.658 --> 00:57:27.340
But yeah, I think Trump just signed something on psilocybin to study it further.

1375
00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:35.045
I mean, it's interesting in the sense of becoming more mainstream and kind of like a, well, if this is medicinal and helpful, then cool, let's look into it.

1376
00:57:35.785 --> 00:57:42.930
And even Cheech and Chong were like, man, I know some people that took too many asses, man, and they, you know, it ain't good.

1377
00:57:43.090 --> 00:57:43.450
Right.

1378
00:57:43.530 --> 00:57:44.791
I don't remember the exact one.

1379
00:57:44.811 --> 00:57:45.511
They didn't come back.

1380
00:57:45.531 --> 00:57:46.532
They didn't come back.

1381
00:57:46.552 --> 00:57:47.392
Yeah, they stayed there.

1382
00:57:47.432 --> 00:57:48.233
Yeah, yeah.

1383
00:57:48.933 --> 00:57:51.435
No, so it's probably like a lot of substances, right?

1384
00:57:51.456 --> 00:57:53.678
It can be used at a therapeutic level, can be overused.

1385
00:57:53.978 --> 00:57:54.158
Yeah.

1386
00:57:54.578 --> 00:57:58.342
How about something else on the technology front, like AI counselors?

1387
00:57:58.602 --> 00:58:02.385
Like my AI therapist said I shouldn't even meet with you guys.

1388
00:58:03.727 --> 00:58:05.989
Well, fire, not AI therapist.

1389
00:58:06.649 --> 00:58:09.612
I mean, I have to think it's a little bit of a threat for your industry, kind of.

1390
00:58:09.872 --> 00:58:17.059
Because they can read every note that's ever been taken and published in any kind of not appropriate way because HIPAA should prevent all of that.

1391
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:17.659
Right, right.

1392
00:58:17.739 --> 00:58:20.702
Open eye, don't give a shit about no confidentiality anyway.

1393
00:58:20.802 --> 00:58:21.763
Should is a funny word.

1394
00:58:22.063 --> 00:58:23.164
Right.

1395
00:58:23.204 --> 00:58:23.425
Right.

1396
00:58:23.765 --> 00:58:27.809
All the copyrighted books that they've been feeding through it and destroying as masterpieces.

1397
00:58:28.289 --> 00:58:28.509
Yeah.

1398
00:58:28.549 --> 00:58:28.950
I digress.

1399
00:58:29.550 --> 00:58:31.611
It's a good – we'll get it recorded here.

1400
00:58:31.651 --> 00:58:32.792
We'll see how well this ages.

1401
00:58:32.852 --> 00:58:41.295
It's like I definitely feel less worried than other industries because the foundation of a relationship – excuse me, of counseling is that relationship.

1402
00:58:41.435 --> 00:58:44.617
You were just saying like the person you visited with for so long, it was hard to just be like –

1403
00:58:44.897 --> 00:58:45.898
I can't see you anymore.

1404
00:58:45.918 --> 00:58:46.959
I want to keep coming in.

1405
00:58:47.359 --> 00:58:48.860
At least talk out a few things with you.

1406
00:58:49.020 --> 00:58:50.702
Right.

1407
00:58:50.762 --> 00:58:52.523
My counselor is yoga with Adrienne now.

1408
00:58:52.603 --> 00:58:53.684
She's so interesting.

1409
00:58:53.985 --> 00:58:54.325
Perfect.

1410
00:58:54.705 --> 00:58:56.006
Yes.

1411
00:58:56.547 --> 00:58:59.269
And so, you know, I think there's always going to be that niche for it.

1412
00:58:59.289 --> 00:59:07.476
But, yeah, there very well could be just kind of AI counselors or bots in the future that could be very helpful for just screening or, you know, basic reflective statements.

1413
00:59:07.636 --> 00:59:07.976
Sure.

1414
00:59:08.036 --> 00:59:09.197
Yes, and.

1415
00:59:09.377 --> 00:59:10.678
But the basis of AI.

1416
00:59:10.858 --> 00:59:12.039
Sometimes they hallucinate, too.

1417
00:59:12.099 --> 00:59:13.280
It's like worse than a mushroom trip.

1418
00:59:13.300 --> 00:59:13.561
Yes.

1419
00:59:14.721 --> 00:59:16.703
there's a lot of like agreeance built into AI.

1420
00:59:16.723 --> 00:59:17.223
Oh, right.

1421
00:59:17.263 --> 00:59:18.864
They always fluff your skirt.

1422
00:59:18.884 --> 00:59:21.266
They are skirt fluffer extraordinaires.

1423
00:59:21.346 --> 00:59:28.811
And so if you're really wanting to do real therapy, just having a robot agree with you, I don't know how helpful that's actually going to be.

1424
00:59:28.851 --> 00:59:29.011
Yeah.

1425
00:59:29.312 --> 00:59:30.773
No, you should have another bump.

1426
00:59:31.213 --> 00:59:33.154
It'll help you prepare for this date better.

1427
00:59:33.174 --> 00:59:34.375
This will be the one.

1428
00:59:34.415 --> 00:59:34.715
Right.

1429
00:59:35.296 --> 00:59:35.936
Just one more.

1430
00:59:36.096 --> 00:59:36.297
Yeah.

1431
00:59:36.477 --> 00:59:37.097
Thank you, Lindsay.

1432
00:59:37.457 --> 00:59:37.838
Yeah.

1433
00:59:37.918 --> 00:59:42.201
So I don't think the way they're set up is... Who knows where it goes in the future, but...

1434
00:59:43.081 --> 00:59:45.902
We're probably all screwed in the long run anyway.

1435
00:59:45.982 --> 00:59:50.324
That's a really good point because you have this problem of like, to what extent do we want AI to be disagreeable?

1436
00:59:50.865 --> 00:59:51.105
Right.

1437
00:59:51.125 --> 00:59:52.405
And it's like in general, you don't.

1438
00:59:52.585 --> 00:59:53.486
Right, right.

1439
00:59:53.526 --> 00:59:55.527
But in therapy, that's very helpful.

1440
00:59:55.667 --> 00:59:56.647
Right, right.

1441
00:59:56.707 --> 01:00:01.549
Speaking the truth is not always easy, but it does have to be trained, I imagine.

1442
01:00:01.629 --> 01:00:04.591
Is that one of the harder things to learn?

1443
01:00:05.311 --> 01:00:09.513
Like it's how to confront people with their lies to themselves?

1444
01:00:10.513 --> 01:00:34.047
do you maybe initially yeah now i'm so blunt i'm just losing friendships the skill of it you can learn it's just you know how do you address something with tact but like the emotional piece of it of like oh i'm gonna challenge what they say and this might not go well like that i think

1445
01:00:34.247 --> 01:00:36.568
think is harder to deal with.

1446
01:00:36.588 --> 01:00:39.250
Well, they're doing it in such a way that they actually receive it well.

1447
01:00:39.390 --> 01:00:39.770
Exactly.

1448
01:00:39.790 --> 01:00:41.231
That's the real skill, I think.

1449
01:00:41.251 --> 01:00:41.371
Yeah.

1450
01:00:41.551 --> 01:00:41.971
Yeah.

1451
01:00:42.972 --> 01:00:43.112
Yeah.

1452
01:00:43.152 --> 01:00:44.452
Is that your experience of it?

1453
01:00:44.472 --> 01:00:46.994
Like there's maybe that reflexive like, oh, this might be weird.

1454
01:00:47.054 --> 01:00:48.694
I think you and I are a little different that way.

1455
01:00:48.774 --> 01:00:55.138
I don't, it's, it's, I think I've just done it to the point I've desensitized myself and, and I have my little run up things.

1456
01:00:55.198 --> 01:00:57.699
This is one of my best little therapist skills that anyone can borrow.

1457
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:01.221
But if you need to ask someone a hard question, ask them if you can ask them a hard question.

1458
01:01:01.661 --> 01:01:01.861
Yeah.

1459
01:01:01.881 --> 01:01:02.863
That's fair.

1460
01:01:02.943 --> 01:01:03.143
Yeah.

1461
01:01:03.163 --> 01:01:04.605
You know, Kurt, can I ask you something personal?

1462
01:01:04.805 --> 01:01:13.315
Well, and not to like say things that are inappropriate, but Ben, you talked already about having kind of some social anxiety stuff.

1463
01:01:13.375 --> 01:01:13.676
Yeah.

1464
01:01:14.096 --> 01:01:18.081
You've got a little bit of a, like Elon Musk just says whatever he,

1465
01:01:18.601 --> 01:01:36.078
things kind of way about you a little bit like people kind of maybe expect that kind of frashness from your personality a little more forward maybe yeah a little more direct well and i think your your background too i mean you were saying all i did for nine years was hold people accountable right yes yes i'm still unlearning yeah but but that's what i'm learning yeah but but that's

1466
01:01:36.078 --> 01:01:36.758
it's not a bad thing.

1467
01:01:36.778 --> 01:01:37.699
Well, it's a good thing.

1468
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:38.299
Yeah.

1469
01:01:38.339 --> 01:01:41.141
Cause not every counselor is the best for every person.

1470
01:01:41.341 --> 01:01:47.965
Well, this isn't me doing, people need somebody to just like, be like, Hey dude, it's time for you to quit being a sissy or whatever.

1471
01:01:48.326 --> 01:01:48.686
No, no, no.

1472
01:01:48.726 --> 01:01:49.186
It's just clear.

1473
01:01:49.206 --> 01:01:49.346
Right.

1474
01:01:49.366 --> 01:01:50.827
This isn't me doing therapy right now.

1475
01:01:50.907 --> 01:01:51.047
Right.

1476
01:01:51.067 --> 01:01:52.588
This is me hanging out with you guys.

1477
01:01:52.668 --> 01:01:52.868
Right.

1478
01:01:52.888 --> 01:01:58.392
But it's, but yeah, no, it's, it's just, I, I don't, I don't feel, I don't think I feel it the same way you do.

1479
01:01:58.552 --> 01:01:58.652
Yeah.

1480
01:01:58.672 --> 01:02:00.413
Maybe because I've had so much more exposure to it.

1481
01:02:00.653 --> 01:02:01.594
I use a lot of tact when I'm

1482
01:02:03.735 --> 01:02:04.315
I'm sure you do.

1483
01:02:04.455 --> 01:02:04.655
Yeah.

1484
01:02:04.895 --> 01:02:10.537
And, you know, I suspect that your style is a little more direct sometimes, perhaps, than Lindsay's.

1485
01:02:10.817 --> 01:02:12.057
Could be.

1486
01:02:12.237 --> 01:02:13.758
On average, if I had a guess.

1487
01:02:13.998 --> 01:02:14.998
Not night and day, but yeah.

1488
01:02:15.058 --> 01:02:15.338
Oh, yeah.

1489
01:02:15.818 --> 01:02:19.079
Do you want to jump into the purpose-driven questions?

1490
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:24.521
Thank you to Purpose Driven Wealth of Thriven for sponsoring our purpose-driven questions segment.

1491
01:02:25.341 --> 01:02:30.205
At Purpose Driven Wealth, they believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose.

1492
01:02:31.126 --> 01:02:38.672
Their mission is to help guide clients using a values-driven, stewardship-based approach focused on provision, contentment, and enjoyment.

1493
01:02:39.733 --> 01:02:50.581
With more than a century of experience, Thriven helps individuals and families navigate life and business transitions and prepare for the future while creating space to live generously and give back in meaningful ways.

1494
01:02:51.642 --> 01:03:00.064
To learn more about Purpose Driven Wealth, please call 970-330-7411 for a complimentary initial consultation.

1495
01:03:00.984 --> 01:03:02.184
And now, on to the questions.

1496
01:03:02.745 --> 01:03:03.925
Ooh, let's do it.

1497
01:03:05.085 --> 01:03:13.227
These are provided in part with the support from Purpose Driven Wealth Management in Windsor, one of our longtime local think tank members.

1498
01:03:14.148 --> 01:03:23.340
Well, I like this one for you because we haven't really gotten too much in the background, but what's the source of your internal compass when it comes to ethical decision making?

1499
01:03:24.401 --> 01:03:29.388
Like ethics is thick in your industry and what are your, what are your anchor points?

1500
01:03:30.911 --> 01:03:32.892
Uh-huh.

1501
01:03:32.972 --> 01:03:36.853
I mean, there's the actual training that you get on ethics and counseling.

1502
01:03:36.873 --> 01:03:38.254
Yeah, the compliance handbook stuff.

1503
01:03:38.314 --> 01:03:39.094
Yeah, exactly.

1504
01:03:39.194 --> 01:03:40.815
And then it's kind of great.

1505
01:03:40.835 --> 01:03:45.536
Like, there's a lot of wiggle room in there in terms of, like, well, how do you interpret this?

1506
01:03:45.576 --> 01:03:48.357
And is this always wrong or is this okay?

1507
01:03:49.918 --> 01:03:56.043
Overall, I would say you and I are fairly conservative when it comes to ethics and we don't like to push the envelope.

1508
01:03:56.343 --> 01:03:58.185
And I think that's just a temperament thing.

1509
01:03:58.305 --> 01:04:02.408
I mean, that might be what drives our compass is just not being risk averse.

1510
01:04:02.488 --> 01:04:04.670
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1511
01:04:04.830 --> 01:04:05.911
Yeah, it could be part of it.

1512
01:04:05.951 --> 01:04:09.493
But I think for me, it's kind of a gut felt sense.

1513
01:04:10.354 --> 01:04:11.035
Like, yeah.

1514
01:04:11.315 --> 01:04:11.615
Yeah.

1515
01:04:11.635 --> 01:04:12.416
Like, what is that for you?

1516
01:04:13.818 --> 01:04:32.063
the gut piece of it yeah if it feels icky yeah right check yourself yeah and the cool thing that we can do too is communicate about ethical issues with each other so it's nice to have a sounding board to be like hey am i off base on this so like we we end up consulting a lot on that and uh

1517
01:04:32.823 --> 01:04:35.084
kind of checking it out with each other and other therapists.

1518
01:04:35.184 --> 01:04:43.306
Like, obviously, within Confidentially Confines and stuff, but do you guys ever talk to each other about, hey, I'm struggling with this particular case and stuff?

1519
01:04:43.326 --> 01:04:45.487
Because it's hard to live in a vacuum, right?

1520
01:04:45.507 --> 01:04:46.227
Right, exactly.

1521
01:04:46.247 --> 01:04:47.548
Yep, we can consult with each other.

1522
01:04:47.968 --> 01:04:51.289
We each have friends that are therapists, so I think that...

1523
01:04:51.709 --> 01:05:06.135
ethical piece kind of comes from community as well when you're talking to other therapists across each other exactly yeah it's important to have someone in my off base here you know yeah yeah fair enough yeah so yeah therapists can do that

1524
01:05:08.816 --> 01:05:21.249
What, uh, talk to me about like a major challenge that you've had or a major positive thing, a life event, but what, what do you find the, the thing you'd lean on?

1525
01:05:21.309 --> 01:05:22.911
Is it, is it relationships?

1526
01:05:22.971 --> 01:05:24.132
Is it spirituality?

1527
01:05:24.393 --> 01:05:25.674
Is it finances?

1528
01:05:25.694 --> 01:05:27.536
Is it your intelligence?

1529
01:05:27.716 --> 01:05:31.240
Like what's your, your real foundation for strength in a hard time?

1530
01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:31.940
Yeah.

1531
01:05:34.141 --> 01:05:36.843
I think I'll let you think because I have an idea.

1532
01:05:37.343 --> 01:05:49.809
For me, I just have this ability and I kind of phrase it in my head when I'm going through something hard as just keep going, just keep marching forward, just keep one foot in front of the other, just one more day.

1533
01:05:49.949 --> 01:05:53.111
Like I have this very perseverance, resolve.

1534
01:05:53.311 --> 01:05:55.192
I don't know what exactly to call it, but

1535
01:05:55.692 --> 01:06:00.253
You know, there were times at the hospital that I was working at and I was just like, this is a lot.

1536
01:06:00.293 --> 01:06:01.153
Do I want to do this?

1537
01:06:01.173 --> 01:06:02.934
And it's like, well, just do another day.

1538
01:06:03.814 --> 01:06:08.335
And when you kind of march forward with that, then other things start to illuminate themselves.

1539
01:06:08.355 --> 01:06:09.775
Yeah, if you show up every day.

1540
01:06:10.075 --> 01:06:10.615
Exactly.

1541
01:06:10.655 --> 01:06:11.336
Life is easier.

1542
01:06:11.396 --> 01:06:14.096
And at the beginning of this practice, it was like, just keep doing it.

1543
01:06:14.136 --> 01:06:14.836
Just keep going.

1544
01:06:14.856 --> 01:06:16.577
Let's see where this goes.

1545
01:06:16.637 --> 01:06:20.098
So that's what I rely on for me is just march ahead.

1546
01:06:20.178 --> 01:06:20.758
Keep going.

1547
01:06:23.300 --> 01:06:24.320
Yeah, it's similar.

1548
01:06:24.340 --> 01:06:30.882
I think it's something I've even learned just through the process of our work is like, like be grateful for the struggle, right?

1549
01:06:30.902 --> 01:06:35.363
This is here to teach you something and do your best to internalize that and see what it is.

1550
01:06:35.383 --> 01:06:42.664
Yeah, and I don't know, I think I rely a lot on just my routines, you know, things that support me.

1551
01:06:43.064 --> 01:06:46.705
I use a lot of exercise, like this is how I constitute myself before work.

1552
01:06:46.765 --> 01:06:49.926
It's like, hey, I got to be, you know, yeah, yeah, so.

1553
01:06:50.526 --> 01:06:53.248
Leaning into those things, just the things that you know that work.

1554
01:06:53.748 --> 01:06:54.108
For sure.

1555
01:06:54.668 --> 01:06:56.009
Do that.

1556
01:06:56.309 --> 01:06:58.431
Talk to me about legacy a little bit.

1557
01:07:00.352 --> 01:07:03.674
My wife and I are similar in that we're a long time married, no children.

1558
01:07:03.694 --> 01:07:05.935
You know, you got your business.

1559
01:07:06.375 --> 01:07:08.236
I got local think tank and stuff.

1560
01:07:08.256 --> 01:07:10.978
But like when you think about 10 years,

1561
01:07:11.978 --> 01:07:14.260
20 years down the road, what does legacy mean for you?

1562
01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:17.663
Is that even part of growing the practice so that it would live on?

1563
01:07:17.683 --> 01:07:18.804
Yeah.

1564
01:07:18.924 --> 01:07:19.545
Or yeah.

1565
01:07:19.565 --> 01:07:20.946
Talk to me about your notions there.

1566
01:07:21.106 --> 01:07:21.346
Yeah.

1567
01:07:21.386 --> 01:07:25.229
All those clients that you've helped over the years, is that like feed your legacy bucket?

1568
01:07:25.650 --> 01:07:26.891
Yeah, I think so.

1569
01:07:26.971 --> 01:07:34.457
I think we really want to just offer like the best experience to people when they come in for therapy.

1570
01:07:34.577 --> 01:07:39.962
And so all of the lives that we've, you know, touched or been instrumental in, like we really do.

1571
01:07:40.762 --> 01:07:42.204
get satisfaction from that.

1572
01:07:43.445 --> 01:07:46.188
I don't know about you, but I've been kind of reflecting on this lately.

1573
01:07:46.628 --> 01:07:48.651
And now that, you know, the practice is good.

1574
01:07:48.711 --> 01:07:49.411
It's stable.

1575
01:07:49.431 --> 01:07:55.898
I've been starting to think about, okay, so now that I've got a little more bandwidth these days, what else do I want to do with myself?

1576
01:07:55.978 --> 01:07:57.620
Is that getting involved more with the community?

1577
01:07:57.640 --> 01:07:58.641
Is that volunteer work?

1578
01:07:58.701 --> 01:07:59.022
Is that,

1579
01:07:59.522 --> 01:08:21.743
some other avenue to pursue a board member somewhere yeah exactly yeah so i'm just now starting to really give that serious consideration so i would say i'm kind of in the infancy of well feel welcome i enjoy those kind of conversations if you want to have an hour with me we can talk a little bit about where your skills and abilities might be best utilized yeah yeah do you have thoughts about legacy yeah

1580
01:08:22.542 --> 01:08:24.384
Yeah, probably not as many as I need to.

1581
01:08:24.604 --> 01:08:24.984
Yeah.

1582
01:08:25.985 --> 01:08:27.086
Just think about tomorrow, baby.

1583
01:08:27.146 --> 01:08:28.807
Exactly.

1584
01:08:30.629 --> 01:08:31.149
Sorry.

1585
01:08:31.209 --> 01:08:31.610
No, no.

1586
01:08:31.910 --> 01:08:34.312
What's for dinner?

1587
01:08:35.413 --> 01:08:36.033
I really do.

1588
01:08:36.053 --> 01:08:41.938
I try to think of like what just what makes life meaningful to me in general.

1589
01:08:41.958 --> 01:08:42.559
And then it's like do –

1590
01:08:42.859 --> 01:08:44.000
Do as much of that as you can.

1591
01:08:44.020 --> 01:08:45.781
And that is meaningful conversations.

1592
01:08:46.781 --> 01:08:48.702
So I might be in the right job.

1593
01:08:49.422 --> 01:08:56.326
And the fact that I get to have all these relationships with people and have a formative influence on their life, it's huge.

1594
01:08:57.186 --> 01:08:57.627
Yeah.

1595
01:08:57.667 --> 01:08:58.467
And that's plenty.

1596
01:08:58.487 --> 01:09:00.428
I think if that's all I ever did, that would be enough.

1597
01:09:01.180 --> 01:09:02.942
You know, I have a podcast idea for you guys.

1598
01:09:03.302 --> 01:09:03.962
Yeah.

1599
01:09:05.203 --> 01:09:13.730
There's probably some ethical fraughtness, but if you just had like live counseling sessions with people, they would have to sign like it's okay.

1600
01:09:13.770 --> 01:09:14.370
Yeah.

1601
01:09:14.871 --> 01:09:18.753
I might start doing it actually just – I've actually been doing it this whole time.

1602
01:09:19.214 --> 01:09:19.974
No, just kidding.

1603
01:09:20.475 --> 01:09:21.175
This is a pilot.

1604
01:09:21.395 --> 01:09:22.616
This is a pilot right here.

1605
01:09:23.117 --> 01:09:23.497
No, but –

1606
01:09:23.717 --> 01:09:37.323
Like, it might be kind of intriguing where it would be, like, for all those, like, for all the uptick in demand, what percentage of Americans or maybe northern Coloradoans have never been a counseling at all?

1607
01:09:38.906 --> 01:09:39.947
That's a great question.

1608
01:09:39.967 --> 01:09:40.067
Yeah.

1609
01:09:40.187 --> 01:09:42.469
Don't have the hard math on that, but it's still a number.

1610
01:09:42.629 --> 01:09:45.551
Or someone went once and they had a negative experience.

1611
01:09:45.591 --> 01:09:45.771
50%.

1612
01:09:45.791 --> 01:09:46.171
Yeah.

1613
01:09:46.311 --> 01:09:46.631
Yeah.

1614
01:09:46.992 --> 01:09:47.172
Yeah.

1615
01:09:47.332 --> 01:09:50.194
I mean, I've done, let's see, three consultations in the last week.

1616
01:09:50.334 --> 01:09:54.236
One of them had never been in contact with a therapist or done therapy.

1617
01:09:54.376 --> 01:09:55.337
I think that's pretty normal.

1618
01:09:55.377 --> 01:09:58.359
Maybe like a third to a half of people have ever.

1619
01:09:58.419 --> 01:09:58.699
Yeah.

1620
01:09:58.719 --> 01:09:59.180
Just guessing.

1621
01:09:59.380 --> 01:10:01.741
So there's still significant untapped marketplace out there, right?

1622
01:10:01.761 --> 01:10:02.041
Yeah.

1623
01:10:02.061 --> 01:10:02.242
Yeah.

1624
01:10:02.402 --> 01:10:02.682
Yeah.

1625
01:10:03.242 --> 01:10:04.244
I've had that thought too.

1626
01:10:04.284 --> 01:10:06.467
And of course, yeah, there's, you gotta have your, your paperwork tidy.

1627
01:10:06.587 --> 01:10:08.910
HIPAA would freak out.

1628
01:10:08.950 --> 01:10:10.031
Yeah.

1629
01:10:10.071 --> 01:10:11.413
But these things have kind of been done.

1630
01:10:11.433 --> 01:10:13.736
Like, I don't know if you ever caught like a love line back in the day.

1631
01:10:13.816 --> 01:10:14.197
Oh yeah.

1632
01:10:14.237 --> 01:10:15.338
Yeah, for sure.

1633
01:10:15.398 --> 01:10:16.259
Adam Crowley, Dr. Drew.

1634
01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:18.622
So, uh, what's it, uh, what's it?

1635
01:10:22.166 --> 01:10:22.787
Dr. Phil.

1636
01:10:23.148 --> 01:10:23.428
Yeah.

1637
01:10:23.648 --> 01:10:25.351
That was basically a counseling.

1638
01:10:25.832 --> 01:10:26.052
Yeah.

1639
01:10:26.473 --> 01:10:27.855
So, yeah, I mean.

1640
01:10:27.915 --> 01:10:29.818
A little more in the fringe.

1641
01:10:30.259 --> 01:10:30.499
Right.

1642
01:10:30.579 --> 01:10:31.080
That's fair.

1643
01:10:31.100 --> 01:10:35.267
Yeah, you know, it's more like yelling at people in six-minute segments between commercials.

1644
01:10:35.307 --> 01:10:36.048
But I...

1645
01:10:36.929 --> 01:10:40.772
I like that idea because I think it would serve as a model to so many people.

1646
01:10:41.513 --> 01:10:44.015
And I've had so many just excellent conversations with clients.

1647
01:10:44.035 --> 01:10:46.477
It's like, if I could just bottle it and let other people see this.

1648
01:10:46.537 --> 01:10:46.737
Yeah.

1649
01:10:47.238 --> 01:10:49.059
That one seven-minute snippet especially.

1650
01:10:49.139 --> 01:10:49.480
Yeah.

1651
01:10:49.540 --> 01:10:56.105
People would just go – They just really found that nugget that unlocked all the future stuff a lot easier.

1652
01:10:56.266 --> 01:10:56.506
Yes.

1653
01:10:56.946 --> 01:10:59.448
So many conversations I have that just pertain to so many people.

1654
01:11:00.609 --> 01:11:01.030
It's intriguing.

1655
01:11:01.050 --> 01:11:01.150
Yeah.

1656
01:11:01.550 --> 01:11:01.750
Yeah.

1657
01:11:01.770 --> 01:11:02.892
Yeah, so we'll do...

1658
01:11:02.912 --> 01:11:03.252
I don't know.

1659
01:11:03.272 --> 01:11:05.094
Are we going to bring back like late night call-in?

1660
01:11:05.915 --> 01:11:06.236
Kind of show.

1661
01:11:06.256 --> 01:11:08.338
Have like your favorite... Actually, maybe that's it.

1662
01:11:08.358 --> 01:11:10.260
Maybe it's Evolve Live.

1663
01:11:10.481 --> 01:11:11.261
Hello, caller.

1664
01:11:11.382 --> 01:11:12.182
Evolve After Dark.

1665
01:11:12.203 --> 01:11:13.284
With Lindsay and Vin.

1666
01:11:13.404 --> 01:11:14.245
Is this just Frasier?

1667
01:11:14.265 --> 01:11:15.687
Or are we just doing Frasier?

1668
01:11:15.707 --> 01:11:17.909
Oh, it might be, yeah.

1669
01:11:18.109 --> 01:11:18.370
Well...

1670
01:11:18.770 --> 01:11:20.531
You know, this is Northern Colorado's version, though.

1671
01:11:20.571 --> 01:11:20.731
Yeah.

1672
01:11:20.751 --> 01:11:21.211
Or Frasier.

1673
01:11:21.311 --> 01:11:22.031
Or Frasier.

1674
01:11:22.411 --> 01:11:26.832
Actually, I guess that new building that's going up downtown there, the old Lyric?

1675
01:11:27.012 --> 01:11:27.252
Yeah.

1676
01:11:27.272 --> 01:11:27.733
Oh, yeah.

1677
01:11:27.953 --> 01:11:30.573
Is going to be headquarters to the KRFC.

1678
01:11:31.094 --> 01:11:31.334
Okay.

1679
01:11:31.354 --> 01:11:33.814
So the community radio station's got some fat new digs.

1680
01:11:34.234 --> 01:11:34.815
Interesting.

1681
01:11:34.855 --> 01:11:39.736
Courtesy a la Pat Stryker and the Bohemian Foundation, I presume.

1682
01:11:40.616 --> 01:11:41.296
Oh, yeah.

1683
01:11:42.137 --> 01:11:46.158
But yeah, that could be like a KRFC late night for community health.

1684
01:11:46.218 --> 01:11:46.678
That'd be great.

1685
01:11:46.878 --> 01:11:47.158
interesting.

1686
01:11:47.178 --> 01:11:51.522
Right, is actually to have that kind of stuff.

1687
01:11:51.562 --> 01:11:51.682
Yeah.

1688
01:11:51.702 --> 01:11:52.403
I don't know.

1689
01:11:52.523 --> 01:11:53.004
Yeah.

1690
01:11:53.024 --> 01:11:54.465
Call in, there's a level of anonymity.

1691
01:11:54.785 --> 01:11:56.106
Yeah, exactly.

1692
01:11:56.126 --> 01:11:58.389
You can only use fake names and stuff.

1693
01:11:58.569 --> 01:12:00.591
Yeah, what are we doing between 9 and 11?

1694
01:12:00.611 --> 01:12:01.832
Yeah, 9 and 11.

1695
01:12:02.432 --> 01:12:03.373
Maybe it's just once a week.

1696
01:12:03.713 --> 01:12:04.094
Right.

1697
01:12:05.755 --> 01:12:08.918
Are you ready to try the crazy ginger hot sauce?

1698
01:12:08.938 --> 01:12:10.239
Let's do it.

1699
01:12:10.259 --> 01:12:13.941
Okay, these chips are preloaded with the crazy ginger.

1700
01:12:13.961 --> 01:12:14.902
Okay.

1701
01:12:15.222 --> 01:12:15.923
Feel brave.

1702
01:12:16.183 --> 01:12:18.345
And then you guys get those.

1703
01:12:25.050 --> 01:12:29.253
I'll be right back after getting this set up for the Whizcal samples.

1704
01:12:29.273 --> 01:12:29.513
Okay.

1705
01:12:31.962 --> 01:12:38.626
I think I made a mistake by sprinkling the hot sauce like three minutes ago because it kind of settled into the chips.

1706
01:12:39.106 --> 01:12:40.167
Oh, it's still there.

1707
01:12:40.287 --> 01:12:42.208
It's still there.

1708
01:12:48.031 --> 01:12:48.731
That's nice, Kurt.

1709
01:12:50.032 --> 01:12:50.852
That's Paul.

1710
01:12:51.232 --> 01:12:52.473
Paul at Matador Mexican Grill.

1711
01:12:54.014 --> 01:12:54.534
Thank you, Paul.

1712
01:12:55.174 --> 01:12:55.815
Yeah, that's great.

1713
01:12:55.855 --> 01:12:56.195
Well done.

1714
01:13:03.667 --> 01:13:04.548
That's pretty light.

1715
01:13:04.888 --> 01:13:05.188
Here, wait.

1716
01:13:05.208 --> 01:13:05.889
I got a little scoop.

1717
01:13:06.049 --> 01:13:06.369
All right.

1718
01:13:06.509 --> 01:13:06.689
Okay.

1719
01:13:07.249 --> 01:13:08.490
Got those ones right there.

1720
01:13:08.510 --> 01:13:09.411
The freshies on it.

1721
01:13:09.751 --> 01:13:10.192
Yeah.

1722
01:13:10.432 --> 01:13:11.132
Ooh.

1723
01:13:11.192 --> 01:13:12.373
That'll be fine.

1724
01:13:12.393 --> 01:13:13.554
That's chomping into the mic.

1725
01:13:13.574 --> 01:13:14.514
No, you can make it chomp.

1726
01:13:14.595 --> 01:13:16.736
It's fine.

1727
01:13:16.776 --> 01:13:17.677
Is it ASMR?

1728
01:13:18.017 --> 01:13:18.217
Mm-hmm.

1729
01:13:18.837 --> 01:13:20.959
I'm doing a version of that, like an aggressive version.

1730
01:13:22.060 --> 01:13:24.301
Are you guys into that kind of techie stuff?

1731
01:13:24.321 --> 01:13:24.481
No.

1732
01:13:24.501 --> 01:13:24.982
ASMR.

1733
01:13:25.002 --> 01:13:25.062
No.

1734
01:13:26.272 --> 01:13:26.432
Yeah.

1735
01:13:26.632 --> 01:13:27.173
It's interesting.

1736
01:13:27.213 --> 01:13:28.914
It really is just like a mindfulness practice.

1737
01:13:29.214 --> 01:13:30.035
Yeah.

1738
01:13:30.055 --> 01:13:30.955
I get why people like it.

1739
01:13:31.015 --> 01:13:31.216
Yeah.

1740
01:13:31.496 --> 01:13:32.697
Yeah.

1741
01:13:32.717 --> 01:13:34.298
Best way to be mindful is just through your senses.

1742
01:13:34.358 --> 01:13:37.880
So it's like here's me tapping on the microphone cover right now.

1743
01:13:39.261 --> 01:13:40.862
Please never do that again.

1744
01:13:41.363 --> 01:13:41.963
No?

1745
01:13:42.183 --> 01:13:43.144
You don't like my NPR?

1746
01:13:43.164 --> 01:13:45.025
Here's me breathing heavy into your ear.

1747
01:13:45.045 --> 01:13:45.466
That's right.

1748
01:13:46.026 --> 01:13:48.609
It's not weird at all.

1749
01:13:49.610 --> 01:13:56.197
I'm acting like I just climbed a steep peak at 10,000 elevation.

1750
01:13:56.498 --> 01:13:56.898
That's right.

1751
01:13:57.319 --> 01:13:58.280
Very heavy for you.

1752
01:13:58.460 --> 01:14:00.582
To your goodness.

1753
01:14:00.642 --> 01:14:01.864
It must be the lack of oxygen.

1754
01:14:01.924 --> 01:14:02.164
Yeah.

1755
01:14:04.790 --> 01:14:05.130
All right.

1756
01:14:05.410 --> 01:14:06.451
And this is the WizCal?

1757
01:14:06.851 --> 01:14:08.012
This is the WizCal.

1758
01:14:08.212 --> 01:14:08.612
Thank you.

1759
01:14:08.672 --> 01:14:10.593
Thank you to Seed and Spirit Distilling.

1760
01:14:11.553 --> 01:14:19.837
Soon, maybe less than a month away, they will be opening their new tasting room and oyster bar at the former Funkworks location.

1761
01:14:19.877 --> 01:14:20.918
Oh, fantastic.

1762
01:14:20.938 --> 01:14:21.098
Yeah.

1763
01:14:21.298 --> 01:14:22.899
And they have the most local best stuff.

1764
01:14:23.259 --> 01:14:24.419
I don't really recommend shooting it.

1765
01:14:24.499 --> 01:14:25.480
It's too tasty for that.

1766
01:14:25.540 --> 01:14:26.801
Yeah, I got to save it.

1767
01:14:27.161 --> 01:14:28.661
We'll just do a salute from distance.

1768
01:14:28.902 --> 01:14:29.682
Cheers, guys.

1769
01:14:29.742 --> 01:14:31.843
And the tasting notes on that would be fine as well.

1770
01:14:35.709 --> 01:14:38.371
So this is whiskey and tequila.

1771
01:14:38.711 --> 01:14:39.291
Mezcal.

1772
01:14:39.311 --> 01:14:39.872
Mezcal.

1773
01:14:39.932 --> 01:14:41.733
And whiskey, kind of a hybrid spirit.

1774
01:14:41.813 --> 01:14:42.373
Interesting.

1775
01:14:42.393 --> 01:14:43.974
With those two core ingredients.

1776
01:14:44.615 --> 01:14:45.095
Smoky.

1777
01:14:45.435 --> 01:14:47.737
I'm starting to get sweaty from the hot sauce.

1778
01:14:47.877 --> 01:14:50.319
Uh-oh.

1779
01:14:50.379 --> 01:14:51.219
You're glowing.

1780
01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:54.361
Ben might be getting a little... Oh, I was feeling it too.

1781
01:14:54.561 --> 01:14:55.482
Kurt's pressure cooker.

1782
01:14:56.723 --> 01:14:57.043
Right.

1783
01:14:57.463 --> 01:14:58.004
Oh, just wait.

1784
01:14:59.525 --> 01:15:01.146
We're not even loco yet.

1785
01:15:01.186 --> 01:15:03.147
Any tasting notes that you'd like to share?

1786
01:15:03.167 --> 01:15:04.008
You like the smoky?

1787
01:15:04.028 --> 01:15:04.408
Smoky.

1788
01:15:04.928 --> 01:15:05.248
Yeah.

1789
01:15:05.588 --> 01:15:09.469
You're not really a straight spirit scale except for like vodka tonics.

1790
01:15:09.529 --> 01:15:10.189
Yes.

1791
01:15:10.229 --> 01:15:10.549
Yes.

1792
01:15:11.129 --> 01:15:11.369
Yeah.

1793
01:15:11.469 --> 01:15:17.870
I can't talk about this in a sophisticated way, but it tastes a bit like barbecue.

1794
01:15:18.491 --> 01:15:18.931
Yeah.

1795
01:15:18.971 --> 01:15:20.211
The mezcal is very forward.

1796
01:15:21.151 --> 01:15:21.591
Oh, yes.

1797
01:15:21.671 --> 01:15:21.951
Yeah.

1798
01:15:22.351 --> 01:15:22.931
I get that.

1799
01:15:23.051 --> 01:15:24.132
Mezcal forward.

1800
01:15:24.172 --> 01:15:25.092
Mezcal forward.

1801
01:15:25.112 --> 01:15:25.312
Yeah.

1802
01:15:25.492 --> 01:15:25.812
Yeah.

1803
01:15:26.112 --> 01:15:26.732
Most prominent.

1804
01:15:26.752 --> 01:15:26.932
Yeah.

1805
01:15:27.112 --> 01:15:28.092
I think that's a good compliment.

1806
01:15:28.212 --> 01:15:29.253
It tastes like a barbecue.

1807
01:15:29.393 --> 01:15:29.753
Yeah.

1808
01:15:29.833 --> 01:15:31.493
Like barbecue is good.

1809
01:15:32.075 --> 01:15:32.335
Yes.

1810
01:15:32.355 --> 01:15:33.215
Well, it's supposed to be.

1811
01:15:33.255 --> 01:15:34.016
It's smoked, right?

1812
01:15:34.496 --> 01:15:34.736
Yeah.

1813
01:15:35.196 --> 01:15:35.976
Very tasty.

1814
01:15:36.357 --> 01:15:46.020
So I'm thinking because there's two of you and you've both got chapters before each other, his, hers, and theirs on the loco experience.

1815
01:15:46.040 --> 01:15:48.421
Do you have that many crazy stories?

1816
01:15:48.581 --> 01:15:51.762
Do you have a his story, her story, and a together story?

1817
01:15:51.782 --> 01:15:53.583
Or do you just have one crazy story together?

1818
01:15:54.643 --> 01:15:55.643
I got one for the theirs.

1819
01:15:56.283 --> 01:15:57.244
Oh, okay.

1820
01:15:57.444 --> 01:15:58.604
Good, because I got nothing.

1821
01:15:58.624 --> 01:16:00.824
You're both risk averse.

1822
01:16:00.884 --> 01:16:01.705
Yeah.

1823
01:16:01.845 --> 01:16:03.525
We had to think of it just for that reason.

1824
01:16:03.545 --> 01:16:04.165
We were like, yeah, let's...

1825
01:16:04.185 --> 01:16:06.886
This one time we said yes to appearing on the Local Experience podcast.

1826
01:16:07.026 --> 01:16:08.106
This is our craziest experience.

1827
01:16:09.066 --> 01:16:09.686
And WizCal.

1828
01:16:10.106 --> 01:16:10.886
Right.

1829
01:16:11.307 --> 01:16:11.527
No.

1830
01:16:12.287 --> 01:16:14.367
I don't think that's the craziest story of your life.

1831
01:16:14.527 --> 01:16:15.407
No, probably not.

1832
01:16:15.427 --> 01:16:16.748
We did have to think a little bit.

1833
01:16:16.768 --> 01:16:17.848
We're like, okay.

1834
01:16:18.268 --> 01:16:20.528
Ooh, can I go back to... Let's go back to work.

1835
01:16:20.688 --> 01:16:21.009
I want to...

1836
01:16:21.169 --> 01:16:22.029
So you have a theirs.

1837
01:16:22.389 --> 01:16:22.769
I want to...

1838
01:16:23.189 --> 01:16:24.450
And we've got individual ones.

1839
01:16:24.510 --> 01:16:25.370
I want a hers and his.

1840
01:16:25.390 --> 01:16:25.530
Yeah.

1841
01:16:26.170 --> 01:16:28.931
But I want specifically from your work.

1842
01:16:29.712 --> 01:16:32.393
Like you were inpatient hospital with the crazies.

1843
01:16:32.473 --> 01:16:33.794
You were teen.

1844
01:16:33.854 --> 01:16:34.674
Is it forbidden?

1845
01:16:34.834 --> 01:16:36.855
Like you can tell a generic story, right?

1846
01:16:36.955 --> 01:16:37.935
You can tell generic.

1847
01:16:37.955 --> 01:16:40.076
We've got to keep it really generic.

1848
01:16:41.377 --> 01:16:41.777
Yeah.

1849
01:16:42.252 --> 01:16:46.715
Worst we can say is no, but for confidentiality purposes.

1850
01:16:47.376 --> 01:16:49.737
I mean, it's been a long time to write, like over 10 years.

1851
01:16:50.098 --> 01:16:50.738
It doesn't matter.

1852
01:16:51.018 --> 01:16:51.379
Really?

1853
01:16:51.499 --> 01:16:51.899
Yeah.

1854
01:16:52.159 --> 01:16:54.121
But none of these records are even public.

1855
01:16:54.401 --> 01:16:55.061
It doesn't matter.

1856
01:16:55.542 --> 01:16:58.504
If I say something identifiable to something, they don't need to get outed.

1857
01:16:58.704 --> 01:17:01.506
This guy came into the hospital and he had shoved a pumpkin up his butt?

1858
01:17:01.706 --> 01:17:02.267
Yep.

1859
01:17:02.307 --> 01:17:03.408
That, mm-hmm.

1860
01:17:03.888 --> 01:17:04.008
That.

1861
01:17:04.348 --> 01:17:06.930
So if that made the news, then you could never share that.

1862
01:17:07.010 --> 01:17:07.370
Exactly.

1863
01:17:07.390 --> 01:17:08.772
Or whatever if it was – okay.

1864
01:17:08.892 --> 01:17:09.772
Well, we don't have to do that.

1865
01:17:09.792 --> 01:17:10.613
I'm trying to think in generalities.

1866
01:17:10.713 --> 01:17:14.156
I can talk in generalities about my work and that gives you some time.

1867
01:17:14.476 --> 01:17:15.617
Yeah, if you've got some time.

1868
01:17:15.637 --> 01:17:18.319
Yeah, because I worked with a lot of kids that had committed sexual offenses.

1869
01:17:18.339 --> 01:17:18.739
Right.

1870
01:17:19.259 --> 01:17:21.141
You know, kind of like not – Boys mostly, right?

1871
01:17:21.301 --> 01:17:22.742
It was all boys facility.

1872
01:17:22.862 --> 01:17:23.022
All.

1873
01:17:23.222 --> 01:17:23.583
Okay, sure.

1874
01:17:23.603 --> 01:17:23.803
All boys.

1875
01:17:23.983 --> 01:17:24.383
All boys.

1876
01:17:24.443 --> 01:17:25.164
So – and –

1877
01:17:27.429 --> 01:17:28.669
you know, it may not surprise you.

1878
01:17:28.689 --> 01:17:31.870
It's like just their boundaries around sexuality and their bodies and all that.

1879
01:17:31.890 --> 01:17:33.111
We're just kind of different.

1880
01:17:33.131 --> 01:17:35.391
Not, not, not like the three of us would have.

1881
01:17:35.431 --> 01:17:41.473
And, uh, there was a lot of like, I would get late night calls for like, so-and-so's doing something where he shouldn't.

1882
01:17:41.973 --> 01:17:45.014
So-and-so's put his business where it doesn't belong.

1883
01:17:47.455 --> 01:17:51.736
I did moon the entire trailhead one time.

1884
01:17:52.456 --> 01:17:52.857
The bar.

1885
01:17:53.217 --> 01:17:53.377
Yeah.

1886
01:17:53.397 --> 01:17:53.757
The bar.

1887
01:17:53.837 --> 01:17:53.977
Yeah.

1888
01:17:54.337 --> 01:17:58.878
Yeah, my buddy was like, dude, I didn't realize your left testicle hung so much lower than your right one.

1889
01:17:58.938 --> 01:18:04.579
So that was, you know, the closest thing I've had to a sexual misconduct crime.

1890
01:18:05.299 --> 01:18:05.539
Yeah.

1891
01:18:06.299 --> 01:18:06.759
I suppose.

1892
01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:11.080
Well, this tricky thing of like teenage boys, especially like we're just savages.

1893
01:18:11.360 --> 01:18:17.081
So it's like what part of that is like you continuing to perpetrate more of this behavior that's illegal and like just being a teenager.

1894
01:18:17.141 --> 01:18:17.441
Yeah.

1895
01:18:18.562 --> 01:18:19.862
Pretty scary, I suppose.

1896
01:18:20.362 --> 01:18:27.772
I think one of the stories I can share is there was more than one occasion where the Secret Service showed up at –

1897
01:18:28.294 --> 01:18:33.979
the inpatient unit because folks were so unwell.

1898
01:18:34.159 --> 01:18:36.821
Oh, they were like making death threats against the president.

1899
01:18:36.861 --> 01:18:37.702
Yeah.

1900
01:18:37.742 --> 01:18:38.022
Yeah.

1901
01:18:38.162 --> 01:18:38.302
Yeah.

1902
01:18:38.462 --> 01:18:47.750
And they were all very mentally unwell and delusional, but like these threats were serious enough that on more than one occasion, the secret service is making an appearance and hello.

1903
01:18:47.770 --> 01:18:50.672
It was, um, it was a little intense.

1904
01:18:51.093 --> 01:18:52.134
So it's pretty wild.

1905
01:18:52.154 --> 01:18:56.577
Like in Jamestown, North Dakota is where the state hospital is.

1906
01:18:56.717 --> 01:18:57.038
Yeah.

1907
01:18:57.838 --> 01:19:00.020
Like he used to be a big provider of jobs.

1908
01:19:00.220 --> 01:19:04.823
And like my, actually my mom's older brother spent a lot of his lifetime there.

1909
01:19:05.063 --> 01:19:05.463
Yeah.

1910
01:19:05.483 --> 01:19:07.124
He was like going way back.

1911
01:19:07.164 --> 01:19:10.206
He was kind of psychotic and sketchy.

1912
01:19:10.847 --> 01:19:17.671
And like they're, they still have some clients and stuff, but across the nation, like we don't lock people up for being crazy anymore.

1913
01:19:17.792 --> 01:19:18.072
Right.

1914
01:19:18.352 --> 01:19:25.076
Like we lock them in jail when they get crazy enough and we let them live on the streets when they're not quite crazy enough to hurt somebody.

1915
01:19:25.096 --> 01:19:25.797
Yeah.

1916
01:19:26.197 --> 01:19:28.078
Yeah, there was a big push.

1917
01:19:28.118 --> 01:19:31.821
What was it, the 80s that deinstitutionalization happened?

1918
01:19:31.841 --> 01:19:35.964
And then there was this thought that you could serve people with these needs in the community.

1919
01:19:37.125 --> 01:19:43.029
And I think there was some short-sightedness in terms of how compliant they would be.

1920
01:19:43.049 --> 01:19:43.990
Some people should just be locked up.

1921
01:19:44.010 --> 01:19:45.671
Like, they can't manage their own medication.

1922
01:19:45.771 --> 01:19:47.052
They don't have any support.

1923
01:19:47.072 --> 01:19:49.033
They're not going to come to their therapy appointment.

1924
01:19:49.153 --> 01:19:49.413
Right.

1925
01:19:49.734 --> 01:19:53.717
Versus if they were... And as families have broken up over the years and stuff, there aren't a... Yeah.

1926
01:19:53.737 --> 01:19:55.678
Like, actually, for a long time...

1927
01:19:56.181 --> 01:20:03.948
My uncle was living with my grandparents and, you know, he was just a little bit dangerous, you know, but they made sure he took his pills and stuff like that.

1928
01:20:04.208 --> 01:20:07.271
And, you know, eventually he became too much for them to handle.

1929
01:20:07.311 --> 01:20:07.591
Yeah.

1930
01:20:07.772 --> 01:20:10.494
And now there's nowhere to send these folks.

1931
01:20:10.574 --> 01:20:11.295
And so it's...

1932
01:20:11.963 --> 01:20:21.307
Yeah, and I remember playing pool with Uncle Lyle when Dad got a pool table, and he was a bang-up pool player, and he was excited.

1933
01:20:21.367 --> 01:20:25.989
Me and him beat Grandpa and my dad at pool, and he was so enthusiastic.

1934
01:20:26.649 --> 01:20:33.872
It was one of the few really joyful memories I have from him.

1935
01:20:34.052 --> 01:20:34.933
And so, like...

1936
01:20:36.153 --> 01:20:40.174
You do want them to interact with the community as well, especially if they've got family or safe people.

1937
01:20:40.394 --> 01:20:40.934
For sure.

1938
01:20:40.954 --> 01:20:41.735
I don't know.

1939
01:20:41.975 --> 01:20:42.275
Yeah.

1940
01:20:42.375 --> 01:20:42.575
Yeah.

1941
01:20:42.855 --> 01:20:43.435
No, I digress.

1942
01:20:44.055 --> 01:20:49.737
That would – it's so hard to figure it out because it's like the institutions shut down because they were corrupt and abusive.

1943
01:20:49.957 --> 01:20:50.177
Right.

1944
01:20:50.377 --> 01:20:50.597
Right.

1945
01:20:50.637 --> 01:20:52.257
So it's like, okay, that's a problem.

1946
01:20:52.277 --> 01:20:55.438
But then the people have too little supervision in some cases.

1947
01:20:55.458 --> 01:20:56.899
And what do you do about that?

1948
01:20:56.959 --> 01:20:57.959
I mean, you go to Skid Row.

1949
01:20:57.999 --> 01:20:59.239
That's basically – Yeah.

1950
01:20:59.439 --> 01:21:00.300
It's a lot of what's going on there.

1951
01:21:00.320 --> 01:21:01.380
The state hospital population of –

1952
01:21:02.080 --> 01:21:03.321
like at least six states.

1953
01:21:03.622 --> 01:21:04.542
Yeah.

1954
01:21:04.562 --> 01:21:07.745
They just moved to Skid Row over the last 20 years and populate that area.

1955
01:21:08.105 --> 01:21:08.766
Yeah.

1956
01:21:08.946 --> 01:21:10.187
So it's tricky.

1957
01:21:10.367 --> 01:21:14.130
I'm all for supporting services who, you know, we really don't have an answer for this.

1958
01:21:14.650 --> 01:21:22.597
Like people that have severe chronic mental illness and psychosis, if you don't have a family member that can keep an eye on you all the time, somebody needs to.

1959
01:21:22.697 --> 01:21:23.117
Right.

1960
01:21:23.478 --> 01:21:26.300
And that's the only way these people do something resembling functioning.

1961
01:21:27.321 --> 01:21:27.561
Yeah.

1962
01:21:28.181 --> 01:21:30.103
Did I let you tell enough of your...

1963
01:21:31.480 --> 01:21:32.060
Oh, yeah.

1964
01:21:32.080 --> 01:21:32.881
No, that covers it.

1965
01:21:32.901 --> 01:21:33.881
Just for general.

1966
01:21:33.921 --> 01:21:34.101
Yeah.

1967
01:21:34.461 --> 01:21:36.282
Did we really want to know more?

1968
01:21:37.703 --> 01:21:39.463
Family history kind of stuff.

1969
01:21:39.483 --> 01:21:42.065
But it's part of my intrigue about mental health.

1970
01:21:42.145 --> 01:21:49.468
And I've, you know, there's been times way back, 07, 08, especially 06, 07, that I was

1971
01:21:50.448 --> 01:21:50.748
Slip it.

1972
01:21:51.168 --> 01:21:51.449
Sure.

1973
01:21:51.469 --> 01:21:51.889
A little bit.

1974
01:21:51.909 --> 01:21:52.029
Yeah.

1975
01:21:52.269 --> 01:21:54.550
Like, you know, and I think I'm better now.

1976
01:21:54.850 --> 01:21:54.991
Yeah.

1977
01:21:55.011 --> 01:21:55.511
I feel like I am.

1978
01:21:56.031 --> 01:22:03.015
But it's an intriguing thing to understand more deeply once you observe it closely.

1979
01:22:03.095 --> 01:22:03.435
Yeah.

1980
01:22:03.515 --> 01:22:03.755
Yeah.

1981
01:22:04.015 --> 01:22:06.517
And there's more closeness than that I won't go into right now.

1982
01:22:06.557 --> 01:22:07.257
Sure.

1983
01:22:07.337 --> 01:22:07.537
Yeah.

1984
01:22:07.697 --> 01:22:09.038
And thank you for sharing about your uncle.

1985
01:22:09.058 --> 01:22:10.119
Like, I'm sorry to hear about him.

1986
01:22:10.139 --> 01:22:11.339
That had to be hard for your family.

1987
01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:15.201
And yeah, you just, you want him to have the best version of the life he can have.

1988
01:22:15.221 --> 01:22:15.421
Yeah.

1989
01:22:15.842 --> 01:22:17.383
I mean, it was the life he had, so.

1990
01:22:17.423 --> 01:22:17.523
Yeah.

1991
01:22:17.543 --> 01:22:17.703
Yeah.

1992
01:22:18.543 --> 01:22:21.267
Shared their local experience.

1993
01:22:22.689 --> 01:22:23.309
You got something?

1994
01:22:23.870 --> 01:22:24.250
Yeah.

1995
01:22:24.331 --> 01:22:26.894
So we're newly married.

1996
01:22:28.636 --> 01:22:30.859
And we're on our honeymoon, Waikiki area.

1997
01:22:31.259 --> 01:22:31.519
Okay.

1998
01:22:32.340 --> 01:22:35.244
And we go, let's rent some stand-up paddle boards for the day.

1999
01:22:35.264 --> 01:22:35.765
Oh, yeah.

2000
01:22:36.388 --> 01:22:38.029
And we've both never done this before.

2001
01:22:38.229 --> 01:22:39.810
So we're both getting out from shore there.

2002
01:22:39.830 --> 01:22:41.911
We're both getting our bearings falling in a number of times.

2003
01:22:42.711 --> 01:22:45.312
At some point falling in, you hit some coral.

2004
01:22:45.592 --> 01:22:46.673
I cut my foot pretty bad.

2005
01:22:46.693 --> 01:22:49.134
You cut the top of your foot open.

2006
01:22:49.494 --> 01:22:50.955
But anyways, we start getting the hang of it.

2007
01:22:51.015 --> 01:22:54.557
And we're paddling a good half a mile out from shore.

2008
01:22:55.855 --> 01:23:00.980
And then I see just under my paddleboard the biggest fucking shark you've ever seen in your life.

2009
01:23:01.440 --> 01:23:03.962
I mean, it was like tip to tail longer than this room.

2010
01:23:04.443 --> 01:23:05.604
Like gigantic.

2011
01:23:05.644 --> 01:23:07.265
And there's something that just comes over you.

2012
01:23:07.305 --> 01:23:09.807
Like Lindsay's blood trail?

2013
01:23:09.967 --> 01:23:10.488
Probably.

2014
01:23:10.508 --> 01:23:12.149
It was like, ooh, there's lunch.

2015
01:23:12.169 --> 01:23:12.390
Yep.

2016
01:23:12.430 --> 01:23:13.931
And I was like, we cannot fall in anymore.

2017
01:23:13.951 --> 01:23:14.371
We're done.

2018
01:23:14.431 --> 01:23:14.892
You were like...

2019
01:23:15.452 --> 01:23:38.343
get down and sit sit on the pad you didn't want me falling like if you kneel yeah yeah yeah so yeah we paddled in and it took us a while to get back to the beach and we're like where did that shark go i didn't see it you saw it but he just kind of like went under us and kept going but we get back to the beach and we tell the lifeguard and we're like huge shark there's a big shark like you know do you need to alert anyone he's just like righteous man and like

2020
01:23:39.243 --> 01:23:40.545
Well, they see them all the time.

2021
01:23:43.067 --> 01:23:45.049
It wasn't right underneath his circle.

2022
01:23:45.070 --> 01:23:46.851
I didn't do a thing with it.

2023
01:23:46.891 --> 01:23:50.896
We were like, okay, well, we've told someone and let's go far away from the speech.

2024
01:23:52.317 --> 01:23:54.780
What was your blood pressure that...

2025
01:23:55.040 --> 01:23:55.760
I can only imagine.

2026
01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:56.760
Definitely elevated.

2027
01:23:56.820 --> 01:23:57.281
Definitely.

2028
01:23:57.301 --> 01:23:59.461
And you're like, okay, I trust you.

2029
01:23:59.901 --> 01:24:00.682
Let's get out of here.

2030
01:24:00.722 --> 01:24:02.562
Hopefully he's not just being crazy right now.

2031
01:24:02.782 --> 01:24:03.002
Nope.

2032
01:24:03.142 --> 01:24:03.342
Nope.

2033
01:24:03.442 --> 01:24:04.242
I'm sticking to it.

2034
01:24:04.342 --> 01:24:07.463
And yeah, it was one of those things, just the way like the light came down through the water.

2035
01:24:07.483 --> 01:24:10.304
I could only see him like right immediately under me and then he was gone.

2036
01:24:10.504 --> 01:24:15.345
And I think like they say on the nature documentaries or whatever, they generally don't have an interest in people.

2037
01:24:15.365 --> 01:24:18.246
I think he just went about his way, but we were plenty scared.

2038
01:24:18.286 --> 01:24:18.986
So I'm sure.

2039
01:24:19.987 --> 01:24:21.547
Lindsay, do you have a different story of mine?

2040
01:24:22.107 --> 01:24:24.429
Not for a shared experience.

2041
01:24:24.449 --> 01:24:25.510
Oh, you got a crazy one.

2042
01:24:26.071 --> 01:24:27.992
I mean, it's moderately crazy.

2043
01:24:28.052 --> 01:24:29.373
Maybe you go first.

2044
01:24:29.393 --> 01:24:32.756
Frat party days from CSU Ventures.

2045
01:24:33.016 --> 01:24:33.396
Yeah.

2046
01:24:34.737 --> 01:24:36.239
Your story is better than mine, and then I'll go.

2047
01:24:36.259 --> 01:24:37.460
Okay, personal loco story.

2048
01:24:37.480 --> 01:24:37.700
Sure.

2049
01:24:37.940 --> 01:24:39.321
Yeah.

2050
01:24:40.122 --> 01:24:41.283
I survived being hit by a car.

2051
01:24:41.763 --> 01:24:42.504
Oh, yeah.

2052
01:24:42.764 --> 01:24:43.024
Okay.

2053
01:24:43.184 --> 01:24:44.125
Yeah.

2054
01:24:44.305 --> 01:24:45.586
You want to set the stage a little bit?

2055
01:24:45.806 --> 01:24:47.687
Yeah, I was on my way into the studio today.

2056
01:24:49.648 --> 01:24:52.050
And Lindsay said, you asshole.

2057
01:24:52.150 --> 01:24:52.971
I was like, it's time.

2058
01:24:52.991 --> 01:24:53.891
Might have been your producer.

2059
01:24:55.912 --> 01:24:56.433
We love you, Ben.

2060
01:24:58.214 --> 01:25:02.237
And no, I was 14 years old and I was on my way to the skate park.

2061
01:25:03.017 --> 01:25:04.778
And it was a beautiful Friday afternoon.

2062
01:25:05.139 --> 01:25:07.720
And yeah, I was just trying to cross a busy thoroughfare.

2063
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:09.201
And I was like, waiting, waiting, waiting.

2064
01:25:09.341 --> 01:25:10.282
Wasn't it a crosswalk?

2065
01:25:10.522 --> 01:25:10.802
Okay.

2066
01:25:11.042 --> 01:25:12.623
On your bike or on foot?

2067
01:25:12.863 --> 01:25:13.203
Yeah.

2068
01:25:13.403 --> 01:25:13.984
Let's see.

2069
01:25:14.004 --> 01:25:14.904
I was going to the skate park.

2070
01:25:14.944 --> 01:25:16.064
So I was – Oh, that's fun.

2071
01:25:16.084 --> 01:25:16.345
Skate park.

2072
01:25:16.365 --> 01:25:16.685
Yeah.

2073
01:25:16.805 --> 01:25:18.806
And I did like rollerblading at the skate park.

2074
01:25:18.846 --> 01:25:21.187
So like shout out to aggressive inline skaters.

2075
01:25:22.007 --> 01:25:22.787
Yes, I like it.

2076
01:25:22.807 --> 01:25:23.968
Who are all old millennials now.

2077
01:25:24.388 --> 01:25:27.609
You like to stand with the skates up high.

2078
01:25:28.190 --> 01:25:28.650
Totally.

2079
01:25:28.690 --> 01:25:30.270
Those sunset photos.

2080
01:25:30.290 --> 01:25:33.312
Just a little separate.

2081
01:25:33.412 --> 01:25:33.812
On the beach.

2082
01:25:34.152 --> 01:25:34.352
Right.

2083
01:25:34.392 --> 01:25:35.073
That kind of thing.

2084
01:25:35.093 --> 01:25:35.333
Yeah.

2085
01:25:36.893 --> 01:25:38.554
Yeah, and I was just trying to make my way over there.

2086
01:25:38.594 --> 01:25:42.276
I was 14 years old and I was like plenty patient just trying to wait for an opening.

2087
01:25:42.616 --> 01:25:45.978
And someone in the like right-hand turn lane nearest me kind of waved me across.

2088
01:25:45.998 --> 01:25:47.138
I was like, okay, I think I'm good.

2089
01:25:47.958 --> 01:25:51.240
And it was like just like precluded from my sight.

2090
01:25:51.260 --> 01:25:53.521
But like in comes this – it's just one of the things you remember.

2091
01:25:53.541 --> 01:25:54.842
It's like it's a gray Ford Taurus.

2092
01:25:55.702 --> 01:25:59.264
And, you know, the long and the short of it is like I was –

2093
01:26:00.084 --> 01:26:01.385
pretty miraculously okay.

2094
01:26:01.445 --> 01:26:07.089
Like it swept my legs out, like kind of swept me at the knee and both my feet or knees rather hit the concrete.

2095
01:26:08.030 --> 01:26:09.130
And that was really the injury.

2096
01:26:09.150 --> 01:26:11.632
It wasn't the car hitting me and I didn't go under the car at all.

2097
01:26:13.033 --> 01:26:20.639
So then I like kind of limped my way to the rest of the way at the skate park and I had to go find a pay phone and very calmly tell my mother to pick me up.

2098
01:26:21.259 --> 01:26:25.805
Because she was probably going to run over three more people in a panic if she knew what happened to me.

2099
01:26:25.825 --> 01:26:27.306
Wild.

2100
01:26:27.647 --> 01:26:27.907
Yeah.

2101
01:26:28.067 --> 01:26:31.151
My dog got hit by a car a couple years ago.

2102
01:26:31.171 --> 01:26:34.956
One of my friends left the gate open and, like, we found him out there.

2103
01:26:34.976 --> 01:26:36.958
And, like, it was crazy.

2104
01:26:37.018 --> 01:26:37.819
Like, he was just all...

2105
01:26:38.680 --> 01:26:40.541
you know, concussed, not concussed.

2106
01:26:40.561 --> 01:26:40.761
Yeah.

2107
01:26:40.821 --> 01:26:41.261
Concussed.

2108
01:26:41.381 --> 01:26:41.601
Yeah.

2109
01:26:41.881 --> 01:26:42.241
Yeah.

2110
01:26:42.261 --> 01:26:46.923
We knocked out of him and, you know, and, uh, he made it, he made it.

2111
01:26:47.003 --> 01:26:47.943
Oh yeah.

2112
01:26:48.103 --> 01:26:50.324
They charged me 600 bucks for, to look at him.

2113
01:26:50.524 --> 01:26:50.744
Right.

2114
01:26:50.844 --> 01:26:54.106
And they were like, we recommend these $4,000 of additional tests.

2115
01:26:54.386 --> 01:26:55.446
And I was like, I'm like,

2116
01:26:55.646 --> 01:26:56.546
Let me see him first.

2117
01:26:56.566 --> 01:26:59.088
And then I looked at him and I was like, eh.

2118
01:26:59.428 --> 01:26:59.908
He looks good.

2119
01:26:59.968 --> 01:27:02.269
I think he's going to make it.

2120
01:27:02.289 --> 01:27:02.949
So we'll pass.

2121
01:27:03.149 --> 01:27:04.530
See how tonight goes.

2122
01:27:04.670 --> 01:27:05.250
Yeah.

2123
01:27:05.370 --> 01:27:05.931
Exactly.

2124
01:27:06.311 --> 01:27:07.371
Yeah.

2125
01:27:07.592 --> 01:27:08.912
But you got hurt pretty good.

2126
01:27:09.152 --> 01:27:09.492
Yeah.

2127
01:27:09.512 --> 01:27:10.693
So your mom shows up.

2128
01:27:11.073 --> 01:27:11.253
Yeah.

2129
01:27:11.314 --> 01:27:13.376
Mom shows up at the skate park.

2130
01:27:13.416 --> 01:27:13.957
What happened?

2131
01:27:14.117 --> 01:27:14.397
Yeah.

2132
01:27:14.457 --> 01:27:14.798
Yeah.

2133
01:27:14.818 --> 01:27:18.182
So, so finally I'm, I'm just dragging my butt in the car and she's like, what, what's wrong?

2134
01:27:18.202 --> 01:27:18.603
What's wrong?

2135
01:27:18.623 --> 01:27:22.888
And she, she knows something, you know, I'm not calling to come home 20 minutes after I left usually, you know?

2136
01:27:22.968 --> 01:27:26.052
Um, and I was just like, I gotta buy a car and she's,

2137
01:27:26.357 --> 01:27:28.259
you know, she's actually very measured in her reaction.

2138
01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:29.880
I was like, okay.

2139
01:27:30.100 --> 01:27:32.362
You know, she worked at the hospital, all that, as we discussed.

2140
01:27:32.442 --> 01:27:36.705
So she knew where to take me and just like took me for an x-ray and everything was negative in my legs.

2141
01:27:36.845 --> 01:27:38.727
So you just got some heavy bruises.

2142
01:27:38.747 --> 01:27:39.928
Yep.

2143
01:27:39.968 --> 01:27:40.988
My knee was pretty swollen.

2144
01:27:41.008 --> 01:27:42.209
It might have been like a bad sprain.

2145
01:27:42.269 --> 01:27:46.112
I crutched around for a little bit, but it was, yeah.

2146
01:27:46.553 --> 01:27:48.494
And, you know, one of those little divine lessons.

2147
01:27:48.514 --> 01:27:50.456
Like I was such a cynical teenager of like,

2148
01:27:51.016 --> 01:28:08.287
oh whatever man this is all so lame let's kill myself you know and it's like i was never seriously suicidal or anything but like i learned to quit talking and thinking that way it's like i actually want to be here right when when it actually got scary i want to live yep that's cool yeah wow so and how do you follow that up

2149
01:28:08.747 --> 01:28:10.768
Well, I too had a near-death experience.

2150
01:28:11.048 --> 01:28:11.168
Oh.

2151
01:28:11.188 --> 01:28:12.889
This is more like just a fun fact about me.

2152
01:28:12.909 --> 01:28:14.990
Fun fact.

2153
01:28:15.590 --> 01:28:16.851
Fun fact.

2154
01:28:17.111 --> 01:28:22.793
In graduate school, I don't know why my friends and I got the bright idea in our heads.

2155
01:28:22.873 --> 01:28:25.815
We were like, you know, I wonder how many chicken McNuggets we can eat.

2156
01:28:26.375 --> 01:28:33.618
And so long story short, I put down 50 chicken McNuggets and a small fry in one sitting, one Super Bowl.

2157
01:28:34.099 --> 01:28:34.399
Damn.

2158
01:28:34.579 --> 01:28:34.959
I know.

2159
01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:36.621
Did you go to the doctor?

2160
01:28:36.721 --> 01:28:37.362
I think I died.

2161
01:28:37.402 --> 01:28:38.824
I flatlined at least once.

2162
01:28:39.284 --> 01:28:40.566
I probably saw God that day.

2163
01:28:40.586 --> 01:28:42.348
It's an impressive number.

2164
01:28:43.269 --> 01:28:44.591
I gave myself a little pat on the back.

2165
01:28:44.911 --> 01:28:47.534
And then it definitely took, what, seven and a half years off my life?

2166
01:28:47.694 --> 01:28:51.499
But at least I can say I took down 50 chicken McNugs.

2167
01:28:53.061 --> 01:28:53.501
With sauce?

2168
01:28:54.202 --> 01:28:56.744
Yeah, I think I had barbecue and a little bit of ranch, too.

2169
01:28:57.144 --> 01:28:57.664
You'd have to.

2170
01:28:57.824 --> 01:29:05.069
One of my favorite YouTube shows to watch while eating dinner is Beard Meets Food.

2171
01:29:05.129 --> 01:29:05.809
Have you seen that show?

2172
01:29:06.010 --> 01:29:06.650
Oh, my gosh.

2173
01:29:06.710 --> 01:29:07.370
I think we have.

2174
01:29:07.410 --> 01:29:08.971
He's got the long brown beard.

2175
01:29:09.012 --> 01:29:10.292
Yeah, John Beard, English accent.

2176
01:29:10.312 --> 01:29:11.373
We've seen a couple of those.

2177
01:29:11.393 --> 01:29:12.734
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2178
01:29:12.794 --> 01:29:12.994
Yeah.

2179
01:29:13.254 --> 01:29:13.614
Oh, yeah.

2180
01:29:13.654 --> 01:29:14.215
Now it's clicking.

2181
01:29:14.375 --> 01:29:15.496
It makes me feel better about.

2182
01:29:15.816 --> 01:29:17.017
You watch that during dinner?

2183
01:29:17.357 --> 01:29:18.518
Yeah.

2184
01:29:18.658 --> 01:29:19.058
I don't know.

2185
01:29:19.098 --> 01:29:19.218
Yeah.

2186
01:29:19.672 --> 01:29:20.132
It's weird.

2187
01:29:20.352 --> 01:29:22.953
It's weird.

2188
01:29:23.213 --> 01:29:24.954
I think I have like, what is it?

2189
01:29:24.994 --> 01:29:28.555
Just like phantom pains watching him do what he's doing.

2190
01:29:28.755 --> 01:29:28.955
Right.

2191
01:29:28.975 --> 01:29:30.215
Like my stomach starts to hurt.

2192
01:29:30.235 --> 01:29:31.096
I can't even imagine a lot of it.

2193
01:29:31.116 --> 01:29:31.476
Oh, my gosh.

2194
01:29:31.496 --> 01:29:32.216
It's just so nutty.

2195
01:29:32.656 --> 01:29:32.956
Yeah.

2196
01:29:33.416 --> 01:29:44.400
So if people are feeling a little crazy but not too crazy to be qualified for Evolve counseling, do you want to have a website or anything you want to send them to?

2197
01:29:45.000 --> 01:29:45.700
Yeah, absolutely.

2198
01:29:45.880 --> 01:29:47.461
If you like Chicken McNuggets, too.

2199
01:29:47.501 --> 01:29:51.903
Yeah, if you're a big fan of Chicken McNuggets and you would like to have a contest with Lindsay.

2200
01:29:52.263 --> 01:29:52.664
I'm down.

2201
01:29:52.684 --> 01:29:55.605
Yeah, first-time clients get a free 20-pack.

2202
01:29:55.905 --> 01:29:56.666
Yeah, there we go.

2203
01:29:57.066 --> 01:29:57.766
We'll just warm up.

2204
01:29:58.066 --> 01:29:59.367
Yeah.

2205
01:29:59.447 --> 01:30:06.090
In all seriousness, you know, we like to do well at our work and we like to have fun, too.

2206
01:30:06.170 --> 01:30:08.871
So you can find us at evolvecounselingnoco.com.

2207
01:30:09.151 --> 01:30:10.132
Best way to reach out.

2208
01:30:10.232 --> 01:30:10.952
Yeah.

2209
01:30:10.972 --> 01:30:12.073
We are accepting new clients, too.

2210
01:30:12.293 --> 01:30:12.453
Yeah.

2211
01:30:12.933 --> 01:30:14.274
Do you guys have any questions of me?

2212
01:30:16.775 --> 01:30:24.622
The podcast, I think you said you really like getting to know people, but how did the podcast come into fruition?

2213
01:30:24.642 --> 01:30:25.603
Why did we start this?

2214
01:30:25.663 --> 01:30:26.284
Yeah.

2215
01:30:27.405 --> 01:30:30.567
I was actually just sharing this with somebody today.

2216
01:30:31.248 --> 01:30:35.932
So I kind of self-cancelled myself from all social media in the summer of 2020 because...

2217
01:30:37.473 --> 01:30:47.076
I was saying dumb things like Black Lives Matter might not be the best thing for black communities thriving and stuff like that, which got me labeled a racist and canceled and all kinds of terrible things.

2218
01:30:47.136 --> 01:30:50.357
And I was saying, like, maybe shut down all the businesses.

2219
01:30:50.797 --> 01:30:53.458
Hey, look, it's only old people dying from COVID.

2220
01:30:53.498 --> 01:30:54.378
Chillax, everybody.

2221
01:30:55.174 --> 01:30:57.477
And so I was like persona non grata.

2222
01:30:57.978 --> 01:30:58.698
They kicked you out.

2223
01:30:58.899 --> 01:31:00.280
Well, I kicked myself out.

2224
01:31:00.481 --> 01:31:00.701
Okay.

2225
01:31:00.721 --> 01:31:01.802
I was like, everybody hates me.

2226
01:31:02.523 --> 01:31:05.467
I kind of don't thrive on thinking everybody hates me.

2227
01:31:05.627 --> 01:31:06.308
Yeah, of course.

2228
01:31:06.328 --> 01:31:08.050
And so I self-cancelled myself.

2229
01:31:08.090 --> 01:31:09.452
And then a few months later, I was like,

2230
01:31:10.477 --> 01:31:11.358
Fuck that, man.

2231
01:31:11.398 --> 01:31:12.699
I'm starting a podcast.

2232
01:31:12.719 --> 01:31:14.440
I can say what I want on a podcast.

2233
01:31:15.060 --> 01:31:17.222
And yeah, it's just been fun.

2234
01:31:17.262 --> 01:31:18.743
I just really enjoy it.

2235
01:31:19.063 --> 01:31:25.368
And I've always been the kind of person that likes to learn from and converse with people from all different...

2236
01:31:26.028 --> 01:31:42.248
walks of life and angles and try a little bit to understand their perspective sure and so i just think it kind of suits me yeah you're kind of like a therapist oh yeah yeah if i was licensed i wouldn't have to have all these tickets for non-licensed practicing of a profession

2237
01:31:43.269 --> 01:31:44.310
Good for you, man.

2238
01:31:44.490 --> 01:31:46.672
Just being honest, confronting difficult truths.

2239
01:31:46.792 --> 01:31:49.194
And Kurt will not be muted.

2240
01:31:49.394 --> 01:31:50.515
No, he will not.

2241
01:31:50.535 --> 01:31:51.675
You're having our record right here.

2242
01:31:52.856 --> 01:31:53.997
Ask me to do something.

2243
01:31:54.237 --> 01:31:55.638
Yes, I will probably.

2244
01:31:55.718 --> 01:31:56.759
Tell me to do something.

2245
01:31:56.779 --> 01:31:59.982
Check you later, douchebag.

2246
01:32:00.462 --> 01:32:00.862
All right.

2247
01:32:01.022 --> 01:32:01.483
Thanks, you guys.

2248
01:32:01.823 --> 01:32:02.083
Thank you.

2249
01:32:02.103 --> 01:32:02.483
Thanks, Kurt.

2250
01:32:02.503 --> 01:32:03.604
Thanks for being here.

2251
01:32:03.744 --> 01:32:04.285
Thank you.

2252
01:32:05.216 --> 01:32:09.343
Hi, this is Kurt Baer, host of the Loco Experience podcast and founder of Loco Think Tank.

2253
01:32:09.784 --> 01:32:13.650
Every week, I explore intimate conversations with business founders and leaders.

2254
01:32:14.191 --> 01:32:19.260
And so I hope you'll join us this week and every week for a new episode of the Loco Experience.