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Jan. 23, 2023

EXPERIENCE 99 | Dr. Heidi Golding, Traditional Medicine, Modern Technology, Family Trauma, Ayahuasca & Magic Mushrooms

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Dr. Heidi Golding is the Founder and Practitioner at Living Well Chinese Medicine in Loveland, Colorado.  She’s an acupuncturist, an herbalist, and one of the most interesting health professionals I’ve become acquainted with. 

Heidi likes to describe her practice as a fusion of traditional wisdom and modern technology.  She is a student of both Japanese and Chinese herbs and acupuncture, with a strong background in tech.  

We did something new for this episode, in that Heidi and I both had a sturdy microdose of dark chocolate psilocybin just before starting this conversation.  We got a little giggly, Heidi barely drank her wine, we somehow lost about 30 minutes of conversation that didn’t get recorded, and we had more edits than normal in this episode.  It remains a deeply personal and enlightening conversation, with great conversation around trauma and recovery, having a bendable mind, and growing up and living as a Jewish family in a mostly-Christian oriented world.  

Heidi and I always have wonderful conversations, and this session was no different - so I hope you enjoy sharing time with us during this conversation with Dr. Heidi Golding. 

Learn about Living Well Chinese Medicine

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Music By: A Brother's Fountain


Dr. Heidi Gold is the founder and practitioner at Living Well Chinese Medicine in Loveland, Colorado. She's an acupuncturist, herbalist, and one of the most interesting health professionals that I become equated with. Heidi helped me through a stress-induced psoriasis flare up during parts of 2020 and 2021, and has recently become a member of Loco Think. Heidi likes to describe her practice as a fusion of traditional wisdom and modern technology. She's a student of both Japanese and Chinese herbs and acupuncture, and has a strong background in tech. Before her traditional medicine, fascination and education began, she was a marketing and sales executive for at and t and later Lucent Technologies during time in New Jersey and ca. We did something new for this episode in that Heidi and I both had a sturdy microdose of dark chocolate psilocybin. Just before starting the conversation, we got a little giggly. Heidi barely drank any of her wine, and we somehow lost about 30 minutes of conversation that didn't get recorded, and we had more edits than normal, but it remains a deeply personal and enlightening conversation with great conversation around trauma and recovery. Having a bendable mind and growing up and living as a Jewish family in mostly Christian oriented world. Heidi and I always have wonderful conversations, and this session was no different. So I hope you enjoy sharing time with us during this conversation with Heidi Golden. Welcome back to the Local Experience Podcast. I'm really happy today to be joined by Dr. Heidi Golding, the founder and practitioner at LivingWell Chinese Medicine. And I've known Heidi for a while actually, um, but really became a client in the last two years as you helped me through some, some psoriasis stuff. And, uh, so let's just start Heidi by like saying, uh, what, what does living Well Chinese medicine do? What do you do So, living Well, Chinese medicine works, um, in, we're in, I'm in Loveland. Yeah. And I work in conjunction with Living Well, whole Health with Dr. Sharon Montez. Mm-hmm. and Living Well Nutrition with, uh, Christie Hall. Okay. She's an epigenetic nutritionist. And so we all go by living. Well, you guys are co-branded but not co-owners. Yeah. Pretty much. So we kind of work Yeah. You know, side by side. Uh, cuz we wanted to kind of be in an integrative setting. I think that those models where you, you don't have all the same type of practitioners Right. But, you know, you work side by side. Others, if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail pretty much. Right. And I think it is, it allows us to be a little bit more open-minded. Yeah. When we see patients. Do you learn a lot from each other? Like We do. We, we, we are often discussing, um, you know, really cool. Um, Or, or different types of issues that come into the office and, um, and different approaches that we could take. And often we share patience. And so it's been really, really, it's been really nice. So talk to me about the kinds of patients that you serve and, and what you help them with. And, and I know it's, I'm gonna cover everything, but it's, it's, gimme a few examples. It's a wide variety. Um, so, uh, what I do though is, is, is a Japanese form of acupuncture. Oh, okay. And I have in, I got my license, but I thought you were Chinese medicine. Yeah, exactly. So so I know it was a little confusing, isn't it? But in, in California, where I got my, my, my, my, where I was board certified first, um, we actually have to be board certified with herbs as well. So it's not just acupuncture. Okay. Okay. But in Colorado you can get away with just doing acupuncture. Right. But in California you have to do both. Right. Okay. So I went a little bit farther and I got my diplomat of Oriental medicine, um, board license as well. And that's a national license to practice herbs. It's, it's a, it's quite an, an exam. It's a difficult exam. And if you pass that, then you can, you, you know, you, you, you will realize that that person has a lot more knowledge about Chinese herbs. About Chinese herbs. And that, is that a el where is the Japanese part come in? So the, just your particular teacher, you know, it's funny, um, in, in Asia that usually people would focus on either. Okay. Um, or acupuncture. Oh. But in California we were forced to do both. Oh. Um, so, um, I, there are many different types of acupuncture out there, and I did Chinese acupuncture. That's how we learn in school. But it didn't resonate with me. Hmm. Because what happened years and years ago, it was kind of washed out in China with Mao and all kinds of the ab So some of the knowledge was lost, a lot of the knowledge was lost. And so to get to some of the beau, the beauty of it and the art of it, you kind of have to go to classical Chinese medicine and you can find that it's still in Japan. Interesting. And so that's kind, so it's almost like a better record of the historic knowledge, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. And I think of acupuncture in some ways. You know, there's these wisdom books, right. The Bible and the Torah and different things. And acupuncture in a way, or even yoga, is like, almost like a book of knowledge that has a lot of different spinoffs and variants and, you know, nobody's really curating it. But gosh, there's a lot of deep juju in there. Yeah, it is. And, and that's, you know, our ancient texts are like, thank you for bringing that up. It is, it's like the Torah where you can study, you know, they, we study the Torah, we study the Bible because there's so much knowledge in heron in it. And it, you can never stop learning. You can never stop. Understanding the depth of it and the classics are the same. Fair. Okay. And so, yeah, it's one of my favorite. If I had another lifetime that's, I would just study the ancient text cuz it's so beautiful. But to apply it is something else. Yeah. And so, um, you know, I've only been doing it for a short time because I, um, I got my doctorate in 2015. Oh really? So even though I, I look really old Kurt you seem like such an expert. You would think that I'd be doing it forever time. Well then you had a, you had a lot of journeys ahead of this even. And I think that, you know, we'll unfold that we'll jump in the time machine and go back to your early years soon. Because I think to know your journey is to really know your why and to know your why is to know your how to a certain extent, right? Yeah. And so get back to that question a little bit about, so who do you serve? Like what problems do you solve for people? And like, how long do they engage with you? And I know, I know it's gonna be like, well I, there's like a thousand extremely unique cases, but Yeah. Like how does somebody identify whether what my mission in the question to a, to an extent would be how do we create more acupuncture fans in the world and people that see the value of herbs and Chinese medicine and Japanese, whatever, whatever the stuff you do in technology besides Right. Because you're a, a technologist, besides, in a way, you've invested in a lot of. Sophisticated equipment to help you understand the body better. Mm-hmm. I, I say I try to, to incorporate the best of the ancient and the best of the current. Yeah. And, um, so, you know, I use Japanese acupuncture. I use, um, definitely herbs in my practice, but I also use frequency specific microcurrent. Okay. And that's when I say that's the best of the current, well, frequency specific microcurrent has been a game changer for me. And so you ask like, who do I serve? I serve people that really haven't been served well, um, elsewhere. And so, uh, I really enjoy changing someone's life that has really struggled. Yeah. Um, with, so people that have lingering problems, whether it be with their skin or with their mood or with their, like digestion, their bodies, all their mind Yeah. Um, but really, yeah. People that have, um, you know, people that have scar tissue from, from post-op or um, scar tissue from a cesarean or, um, scars really disrupt the flow of chi. You know, you say, what is chi? Well chi is just electron flow through the body, but, but that is really disruptive. So with the frequency specific microcurrent Oh, interesting. You can literally break up scar tissue and allow for more flow. And when you have more flow, you, you actually balance the body. Things just kind of circulate better and whatever. Yeah. Interesting. probably get more personal than I should here, but I don't know if I ever told you, but I had a, like a hernia. I had a non descended testicle back when I was like 12, 13. Yeah. And I still have a scar there and the other day and, and once in a while, once a quarter or something, I'll just have this pain there and it's for a few moments. A few minutes. And you never hooked up the machine to that part of me or tried to fix it. But course you never shared that. I know we should next time now, now you're sharing it. Oh. But as you explained that, I was like freaking scar tissue probably. Right? Yeah. That would be really interesting to run on you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, so it's really a diverse, and that's one thing I guess I would, you know, as a banker, business kind of guru guy, it's like you're really talking about serving the hardest of the problems for the people that are out of, uh, time to spend on other routes or the western medicine has failed in a lot of ways, but it feels to me like it could be more of a preventative and intentional approach to life and health almost for, you know, catching problems before the really bad and three people have failed. Wow. Kurt, you're saying exactly the right thing. Yeah. That, so what they say is a good doctor in Chinese medicine, a good doctor, uh, prevents the illness from coming a bad doctor or someone that's not so skilled. Helps. Someone can fix it, it fixes a problem they can see. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. So can we, I guess before we, let's, I wanna come back to like the actual, like what's it look like to, to engage with an acupuncture practice and be healed from something and, and even talk through some examples if you're willing to just even anonymize some cases that you've seen and stuff, but Oh, absolutely. I wanna come back to that and, and go back to, you know, seven year old Heidi in second grade. Uh, where were you? What was your family dynamic? Um, I remember a lot of California background. Is that where you're from? From? No, I'm a Kansas. Kansas girl. I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. Okay. And we'll go back to when I was born, I was severely cross-eyed. Oh, okay. So I had to wear glasses. Okay. And I, I don't know if I could really see very well. Right. My eyes were definitely couldn't focus much No. My eyes were turned in and uh Wow. And I had seven eye surgeries to try to correct them. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And this was a long time ago. They didn't work on eyes as good back then. No. Obviously for why, that's why they needed seven. Right, exactly. I guess. And did they get there or did you have scar tissue from all of that? So look at me now. I'm still got some issues. I got, I could cross my eyes too. Yeah. But can you cross one. I don't know, So I think, um, that experience as a young child, yeah. Not being able to use my eyes the way other people could, I had to use other senses. How old were you through this progression of surgeries and stuff? Uh, it started at two. Okay. So I don't know what I was seeing before the age, right? Not much. Probably. I don't know. And what, um, what was your family dynamic? Were you a first and only child? Was there siblings around? I was, uh, four kids in my family. Okay. I was a second. Okay. Girl. One boy, three girls and uh, yeah. So it's from two to all the way to height high college. Oh, wow. My last surgery was in college. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, um, and were your Wichita's university town, were your folks professors or something or were you, were they farmers? Like tell me about your back. Their big, they really supported Wichita State University, but, um, my grandfather moved to Wichita, Kansas from Chicago. Okay. Uh, to start a meat packing company. Oh yeah. Well, that's cool. Yeah. So you've got entrepreneurism in your family tree. Yep. So, um, and what did your folks do? Uh, my dad worked for my grand, my uh, oh, for the family business. For the family business, and then for his brother in the meat packing. Okay. It ended up being a trading business and, um, my mom was pretty much a housewife. Yeah. She, yeah. Four of us. Right. That's plenty. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. Yeah. Um, so talk to me, take me back to seven year old Heidi then, like were you struggling to see still, like you said that you developed some of your other senses and things as a, because you didn't, like, was it, were you wore listening? I wore glasses attention. I didn't think, you know, I didn't think anything bad about it and Yeah. You know, and it was just, is just was. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. And like I always had a really, really big attention span. I can focus on things. School was, was easy for me. Yeah. Big, um, big school, little school. Oh, just public school. in Wichita, Kansas, whatever. Yeah. Um, yeah, I grew up with great people. Yeah. Such a great place to grow up. It's really the heartland in a lot of ways. Right. It really, oh my gosh. I still have friends. And so was you there all the way through high school then? Yeah, I was. And were you, school was easy the whole time. Good grades the whole time. Um, yeah, school was fun. I, I wasn't, it's funny I wasn't so focused on grades cuz it, you know, girls didn't have to worry about that Yeah. But yeah, I suppose right? Like, oh. But I was really driven and, and, uh, my, my sister got sick when I was young, so when I was. 12. She was 13. Oh. She actually came down with a, a sarcoma. So she got, she had a sarcoma on her left arm. And what it is, it's a cancer. Oh yeah. Cancer. A rare form of cancer. Right. So that was happening. Wow. Um, yeah. They didn't really know what to do with that in those days. Nearly as much as now. I mean, I'm not sure so much has changed, unfortunately. Really on sarcoma. It's pretty tough with ki with childhood sarcomas is the, there's not that much what happened that she should come? No. So, um, she went through a whole series of chemotherapy and, uh, and uh, didn't make it. So that was about four and a half years Oh my gosh. Of, uh, struggle. Yeah. So that had a big impact on you. Well, a financial spiral on your parents and stuff. Like even if you got good insurance Right. There's just no end to the bills in that situation. Yeah. And for us it was just, um, there wasn't a lot of, you know, discussion either. It's like, Hmm. That was really hard on me cuz I don't think I, I dealt with it. Yeah. You know, I don't think our family really dealt with it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, cuz that's a tough thing. It wasn't just, she was the oldest then after that. She was the oldest then. And then you were after she passed. Yes. And then I became the oldest when I really wasn't the oldest. That was kind of strange. Um, yeah. But also just the fact that, um, You know, she didn't want the chemo and they kept giving her the chemo. And my parents had to, because it's like child abuse, you know, But if you, my dad did some research I remember, and that chemo was given to the few cases. This was very rare, the few cases that had this type of cancer. Um, and they all were terminal, so, right. You know, why do that? And she didn't want it. So it's a little disturbing. Um, but knew what she did. You knew she didn't want it. Oh. And probably her doctors and everything, or, oh yeah. She was so angry about it. Really. She didn't want it. She lost her hair and then they found a chemo that wasn't gonna make her lose her hair. But she still didn't want it cuz it was horrible. Yeah. Cause these pills were like horse pills and it's pretty traumatic. Yeah. And then she was, she was just like, screw it, I'm gonna live my life. I'm gonna, you know, I'm just gonna go out and party. I'm gonna do what I want. Right. And, um, went out with a boyfriend and was drinking and driving. They were going 90 miles an hour. This was before DUIs. This is engaging myself. Right. No, I, I remember the days, right. It was the, the local sheriff used to be like, you know, go home and be really careful. You know, don't let me pull you over again. Right. Oh my God. Oh. So that was happening and they were driving, they going 90 miles an hour in a Camaro and hit a tree. Oh. And she was in the passengers, passengers seat. And, uh, my whole family was called to the scene. I didn't make it to the scene, but I did get to the hospital. Um, and they had to stop the chemo at that. and her face was smashed and her hips and, you know, it was pretty traumatic and her lungs collapsed and, uh, since she died nine months later. So it was really a traumatic Oh man. Experience. Like it would've been better if she just died that night. It would've, it really would've. Yeah. So, um, you know, but that was, that was in the 1983, quite a while ago. Wow. Yeah. And it had a huge impact on me. Yeah. Obviously. Um, and you've still turned out pretty well. Oh, well, thanks Kurt. You know, so took a while. Yeah. quite a while. Um, like, talk to me about those years right after that. Like, were you in a funk because of, you know, I was studying for SATs and, uh, during, when she was dying and I just remember studying and I had to go interview right after her death for colleges. Yeah. And they're like, so how was your summer? like, uh, the worst ever. That was a really bad summer. After a bunch of other bad summers kind of, my sister just passed away and, you know, and I ended up going to, to college after that. Yeah. I had a year and then I went to college. Um, and, uh, I was doing a, I was taking a, a test. You were looking for your RS degree or was that, I think that wasn't your attitude. I think my dad might have thought that that's what he was hoping for. probably. It wasn't really where my head was at, but, um, Yeah. So they, I was actually really focused on, well, what do I wanna do with my life? Yeah. Because my sister wanted to get married and have kids. Actually, speaking of rs, that was more, that was what she wanted. Yeah. And she played with the little kids in the hospital. Cause she was in the, the pediatric ward, you know, and it's like, I didn't wanna do what she wanted. I wanted do something else. I couldn't do that. This took me a while to actually get to that point where I could do what it was as she went, I had a lot of survivors skills. Mm. So I did something else. I just decided to focus on my studies. I was in the library at Tulane University, like, okay. That party school, I'm in the library, you know, I, and where's Tulane? Is that It's in New New Orleans. New Orleans. Okay. That's fine. Of all places. I'm not an expert on stuff like that. I just went, my parents were like, oh, you got into Tulane, that's where you're going. I just, I was a little brain dead. Yeah. Um, but it was a, a beautiful school and I, I majored in political economy and was, it was a pretty good experience. What's it like politics and economics together kind of thing? Yeah. Kind of. Huh. Fair. Kind of interesting. What, why did you choose that? Because it's a really good, um, It was a really good major at that school. Dr. Tyrer was, was head of that department. Yeah. And he was brilliant. Pretty good general understanding of the world. Right? It was a liberal arts degree, you know what can I say? Sure. Um, but I was taking that cuz really, uh, an exam to find out what am I interested in cuz they allowed that at the school. And so I just wanted to take it to see, well, where am I head in the right direction and where this was freshman year. And they said, uh, I didn't even know they were testing me for a depression but they're like, you are severely depressed. Oh gosh. And I was like, oh, That's what that heavy feeling is, you know? And, um, thank goodness I, I actually got therapy, uh, all through college and it was a really good thing, like based on the exam feedback in some fashion, the career exam, somehow there was a tester there that was tested for that. Life is meaningless. I don't want any job pretty much, I dunno how they came to that conclusion, but, but yeah. Interesting. So, and so did you stay with the same counselor the whole time? Oh, he was so wonderful. Yeah. Interesting. So wonderful. Well what an early experience for that, right? Like, cuz it was pretty taboo. Like, I'm a little younger than you. Not, not very much Um, as okay ish, you know. Okay. I don't know how much, but, um, a little bit. I was, uh, we'll never know. Yeah. We don't have to talk about it in this podcast, but we might. Um, so, but the, the question was, I mean, it was very like, especially in the Midwest and and stuff, and I don't know if it's any different in New Orleans or whatever, but like, were you open about that with your friends and stuff and like No. No, it wasn't. You're right. But, but you know what I just experienced, but it didn't matter. I had just experienced my sister's death. Right. A traumatic death. Yeah. So it was like, I needed this, you had a, I really needed to, you got a like an excuse button, right? Like, I think that's what the taboo, taboo, especially back then was like, if it's just regular life, you should be able to figure it out, you know? And I'm, I've had, I was just telling you a story that's about my most recent counselor and his, what we talked about on his podcast and stuff like that. And so I'm a big fan, you know, people, people are fragile, you know, both physically and mentally, emotionally, and sometimes it just takes another voice to help us shift our stuff back into where it's supposed to go, so. Well, I'm glad that, that experience was good. Was you, so you just stayed at the library the whole time. You didn't take advantage of the party school stuff at all? I think, I think I did a little bit later. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And did you, like, do you feel like you were out of depression within a while or did you, did it really take a while? I think it took a while, like even passed there even, and possibly because my family system wasn't, Ready to even address that. Like, we didn't discuss my sister, her name was Carrie. We didn't talk about Carrie. Wow. So I think that was really difficult. And how much younger were your two remaining siblings? Um, you know, 14 months and, or 18 months and, gosh, whatever, three or four years, whatever. Yeah. A year. We're all, like, my mom had five, four kids in like five years. Yeah. we're all pretty close. So was it girl, girl, boy, girl. Uh, younger brother, and then a younger sister. I, but the, what brother was older than the sister? Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Okay. Mm-hmm. So, um, like to get back to that school experience, where did you go from there? Like, what were you involved in? What was that experience like overall? Oh, it was, it was, it was a really nice experience. I, a lot of growth. Yeah. You know? Um, but then after that, It was the, I'm, now, I'm aging myself, but there was, the economy was not good when I graduated. So late eighties, kind of. Yeah, pretty much There was, yeah. So there was that, and it was so, I, I couldn't get a great job. There was like nothing. And I moved to New York City, I'm like, you know what? I'm done with little Town Wichita. I'm gonna move to a lot of people from Tulane. Were from the New York area. Oh. So, oh, okay. I literally moved to New York City and you were just intrigued by their stories of this huge city that you can kind of really imagine. I just figured, you know, if I'm gonna make it, I gotta make it there. That evidence is a pretty adventurous spirit though. I mean, I just wanted out of where I was. Yeah. I wanted, out of the small mindedness, I wanted, I wanted to experience life. Yeah, fair. Um, so how was New York? It was okay. I, I got a really crappy job. right. To barely pay the rent. Oh yeah. It was really Met a bunch of douche bag boys. Yeah. I was, we're too aggressive for your case. Where is that coming from? Girl? I don't know. I'm just asking the questions. Geez. I'm just imagining New York and the late eighties with a pretty young thing from Kansas there, It was, it was interesting. But I did not, you know, I was managing a, uh, a small group of people at a. Gosh, what was it? Ray Block Productions. It was a production company that did this traveling trade show thing for hotels. Okay. It was so random In, in bizarre. Yeah. And so I was like, this is not getting me anywhere. And I, um, was able to then go to business school. So I went to Rutgers cuz it was so close. Rutgers Business school in New Jersey. Is that right? I just said, you know what, let me get a little more, the, the economy's horrible. There's no great jobs. Right. Let just go get into code Cool. And take a, yeah. And because I had majored in political economy, uh, you know, I looked at the, a lot of people become attorneys or Yeah. And I looked at the phone book. Oh, I didn't tell you. I did a, a semester in DC my junior year at American University and I looked at the phone book, I'm like, there are so many attorneys. I just don't wanna be one of those. Right. It just didn't feel good to me. I agree. So I kind of needed to switch gears. So I went to business school Yeah. At Rutgers. And how was Rutgers? It was great. That was great. Better? It was, it was, it was only two years, you know, business school's two years. And I cut, um, an internship with Panasonic. Okay. And I was like, whoa, I really like new technology. What was an American tech, uh, technology company, right? Or were they not American They were Japanese first. They were Japanese. Yeah. Okay. It was just small. Rca was RCA the last of the survivors of the American companies? Maybe. I'm trying to, because that was about the time when all the TV companies and stuff decided to die in American relaunch in Japan or whatever. Anyway, I digress. Yes. It was just, um, a small little internship, we think, and just having that on my resume Yeah. Allowed me to get a job at at and t. Oh. So from the business school, I got a job and it was, well, the front of his network. Right. Like you met this person here or whatever. It was not easy though. Yeah. I'll be honest with you because I did an internship then over the summer with at and t in between schools. In between years of Yeah. Yep. Um, school. And, uh, that internship helped me get a job at at and t and then they hired me and then they said, you know what? We don't have the funding. Hmm. So we can only hire a consultant. So my last name was Marcus. Okay. And, uh, I became MCI Marcus Consulting Incorporated. Oh. So basically they hired you as a contractor instead of as a real employee. Yeah. Which was kind of funny to play on words. You know, at and t had their competition at the time was Yeah. MCI at the time. Interesting. I betcha people on this, you know, podcast. Don't even know. But anyway, yes. So, um, I had to be a consultant and then they finally hired me. So it wasn't so easy. The economy was really bad Yeah. Back then. Yeah. Uh, how was like, Woman in business, like were you one of 20 or one of five or like, what was that like? There were plenty of us. There was, and we were strong. Yeah, we were all pretty strong. One of my friends, so at and t at the time, um, you're not gonna believe this, but we had to wear skirts. You had to at back then we couldn't wear pants. Not above the knee though. Probably, probably not I honestly, or, or no, we probably could. That's what they wanted to see. Right? I mean they wanted to see her high as you want. Oh my gosh. And so there was a friend of mine, she just said she stood her ground. She's like, I am wearing pants. And she Oh, I like it. She got let go and then they were like, wait, wait, we can't, she changed the rules. It was kind of amazing to watch. She was amazing. So she changed the rules. Did she come back? I guess not. Oh yeah. Oh she did? Yeah. Cuz we got to wear pants. I experienced the transformation of the at t's pant policy. Oh, there you go. Girl power. Yeah. Um, so how was at and t like that's pretty big corporate. What were you doing? This was kind of a first always for real job. I was always working with, with uh, cellular technology. Okay. So so you were like leading edge on that. It was so cool. Suitcase phones and stuff like that. Put it in your car, you know, take the center console out. Yeah, absolutely. And that's exactly what, what we were working on. And like what was your, like were project manager. Were you like marketing? Yeah, I was a product manager. Okay. Yep. Okay. The product manager. And we did all kinds of things. I managed an ad agency. Oh. Back then they did all the work. You just had to sit. and say yes or no. Right? Yeah. So like they're going through the different magazine ads that you should do and, and were you also like talking to the developers and the designers and So this was the time where getting and whatever there was, I don't know if you know Craig Mac, there was all these, um, CB radio companies, Mac Mcca Cellular was formed and at and t was then, um, consolidating all of that to make Yeah. A oh gosh, a long distance portion for cellular telephony. They were trying to keep the same bell model. Right. And so, um, I don't know if you remember the regional Bell Operating Company Oh yeah. As all, oh yeah, my bell. So, my bell, right. Yeah. So there were, they were trying to, to compete with MCI i's long distance and was it, I don't One other. Yeah. And so we were trying to win every. There was, uh, they, they, they actually had a choice of long distance on your cell phones. Oh. So that was the product I was working with. It was interesting. Kind of crazy, right. Which basically one of the things that cell phones did was like destroyed the long distance, the notion of long distance quality, the notion of long distance. That's right. Yeah. And then the roaming came in and all of that, so, right, right. So that was crazy. But then they split off, um, Lucent Technologies and Lucent Technology was the infrastructure division of at and t and it became its own company. Okay. Yeah. And it was, and you stayed with Lucent? I moved over to, with, uh, Lucent or whatever. Yeah. That was a lot more fun, cuz that was selling big wireless infrastructure to, um, all the different companies, sprint and Verizon and Oh, so they're starting to invest in their people having cell phones and stuff and whatever. Right. So no, to the big, not to the people. Yeah. So, so we were the, the, the commercial piece, the wholesaler almost the wholesaler of the infrastructure. Yeah. And then I was in the small little group that I was in was having, helping the integration of cell phones with all those different networks. Right. So I'm trying to develop markets basically for this new technology in a way. Yeah. It was like, here's all these ways you can use our stuff. And we paid royalties to Qualcomm, but we also had our own. Royalties for, it was called C Dmma Technology Code Division, multiple access. And then we sold something called T Dmma two, and then there was the European gsm, which everything's now converged into one. Is that right? But back then there were all these different technologies. It was almost like the VHS beta fight. It was, uh, yeah, kind of, yeah. The gsm, you know, was the European standard, but of course we, we had to have many standards. So yeah, there was a TMA and interesting cma. So how long did you stay with in the phone realm? Oh, many years. Yeah. Yeah. Um, gosh, I'm not gonna tell you the years but it was like, I mean, we could figure it out anyway. Like, I don't know. You're like five years older than me, or four years older than me. No, you'll never know. I'm 48 A woman. Never Soli age. There you go. Um, so, I don't know, like 10, 12 years. Okay. Enough to almost get pension. And you were in, where were you? Well, at the end. Okay, so then they, were you in New York still in the beginning of this all? Oh gosh, good question. I was in New, did you move around? New Jersey. Okay. Their headquarters was in New Jersey. All right. I was in New Jersey, and then I was, um, I, I actually, and you, can I, yeah. Interject. Are you like a single g I met your husband and we had you over for dinner and everything some time ago, but that. Have you been with him that long or were you single through these years here? I can't remember how Oh. When he came along. Oh, you're gonna ask me these questions? Yeah. And what kind of boys did you date back in your jersey days? I know, I, you don't have to answer that one. Thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah. There was a, there was a, yeah, there was, um, there was some people in my life, um, but I was really focused on my job. Yeah. Fair. I was really focused on my job. You were a killer career woman. Remember? I told, like I really, that wasn't my thing. It was library. As I went to the library, I was, I was really a nerd. Yeah. I was a, a techno geek nerd. I loved a technology piece, you know, interesting. Even though I was, I was marketing it, I was like the sound, it was exciting to you to help expand the opportunities for people to engage with this technology that Yes, I was able to take, take the tech technical piece and convert it to, you know, an understanding the actual utility. Exactly. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, so I did, I left a couple relationships behind, um, when I got the opportunity to move to San Diego to Okay. Um, manage headquarters to be the, um, account executive for Cricket Wireless. Oh yeah. And so I worked with this man, a crazy dude. He was pretty funny. Um, me and him were in charge of, um, selling the infrastructure. In San Diego to, um, to cricket. I don't know if you knew him, but Cricket. You know cricket. Yeah. Yeah, I remember cricket. Yeah. So that was, that was a lot of fun. And there was very different job. It was sales. I, it wasn't really my thing, but, um, I was one of the few females I think that knew enough about it. Just, just, just doing that kind of job. It was, it was interesting. Wasn't really What happened was Cricket ended up, um, going to Huawei, which is a Chinese Oh yeah. The, the CCP stuff. They, they, you know, they were undercut us in price. And, um, I got a call from the attorneys and they said, you know what? Please don't go to cricket. They're not paying their bills. Oh. Anymore. They stopped paying us and Oh, interesting. And then I literally was like, what am I gonna do? I, I don't, I have, I'm getting paid, but I don't really have a job. Right. So I went and got Pilates certified and started teaching Pilates outta my garage. Okay, cool. I still, you know, little side hustle. Yeah. Like, was there just nobody looking over your shoulder asking you how many people you called upon or anything like that? Well, there wasn't, I had one customer, Right. And then, and you weren't supposed to talk to them? I wasn't supposed or talk to them. They, so I ended up doing some other stuff with, um, services, but it was really boring for me, you know? And you're like a high paid executive. Yeah. And they're just like, you're just fucking around basically. Well, no, I was doing some other things. But they moved you well, teaching Pilates in your garage? Well, they moved me, they moved me to this other position, and then they pay these people to come down and interview me and my knowledge of this new position a week later. Okay. and that's where they were able to lay me off. Oh right. Because I had really good reviews and so it was a little crapp. Yeah. But it's hard for them, you know, big companies when they're like, yeah, shrinking and modifying. But I'm sure they could have found a place for it. But I'm glad they didn't. They didn't wanna move you back. Cause I got a really big package to move out there, so Well otherwise you'd be baby, still a cell phones. Infrastructure sales lady gal, and how fun would that be? Right? Now I gotta do this. Right. Whatever. It's true. Life is interesting. The way it has is twisted turns. So, uh, you're in San Diego, like verging on unemployed. Yeah. And, but you've built some skills. You've got this small group of Pilates classes meeting in your garage. I really enjoyed that. And then I ended up getting, um, a massage degree in Encinitas, you know? Okay. Oh yeah. Encinitas people. I was really into the body. I was really, I was doing yoga this whole time. Okay. So I really knew that. Like, I, I really wanted to understand the body more. Like where did yoga come from in all, in that whole notion? Well, you know, was it going back to your sister even like that interest in hell body? No, I, I didn't mention, but I was a really serious gymnast when I was young. Oh no. Yeah, I was really serious. Um, was second all around in my state actually. Oh wow. In high school. Um, and, you know, had all American high school status. Interesting. So that was a big part of my life. So you're a high performance person. Like you're really competitive even though you pretend like it's all love and hugs and whatever. Do I pretend you're still competitive? I don't think it's a pretends anymore. I think I was Kurt. Okay. But I changed quite a bit. All right. Well you still. Do things excellent though. Yeah, I do. I I give it my all. And if you happen to win and kick somebody's ass Yeah. While you're doing things. Excellent. Well that's good too. I give it my all fair. So, so you get this massage training, you got the Pilate stuff going on, and you're just like, still getting paid, carving a fresh path and I'm like, still getting paid. What that heck? And then they were like, okay, you need to go, but they you off, you need a severance, probably good package. You know? Um, and then I was like, what do I wanna do? Yeah. And I literally was like, and this is what, probably like mid nineties or something by this point. Something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And how old were you then? So we're not gonna answer that question way, you know, it just, I'll, I'll work you down. I'm just letting you know right now I'm working into my mid nineties, so it doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Yeah. So, um, anyway. Yeah. So, so you're like figuring out what's next. Yeah. And I'm just like, I literally. I was so driven in the past and it didn't always work out well with, with my relationships so. Sure. So I was like, I need to chill out. I need to slow down. You left a lot of record just, it just wasn't working out for me. Kurt and I just, um, what's that? Hollow mani? No, no, no, no, no. You weren't that. Oh, okay. Okay. Please. Doesn't really seem like your style honestly. No, no. But you were pretty busy, pretty focused on your career and you know, if a man couldn't pretty much take care of him damn himself, then you didn't really need a part of him in some ways. And most boys are looking for somebody to take care of him, like their mommy. And so it's hard to find that Is that not accurate? I don't know. Heidi, get all this. Wow. I just come up with this shit on the fly, Heidi. Oh my gosh, you're so wide. Should we do our disclaimer now? Okay. Are we, no, no. let's not. It's just not, we'll leave that, we'll leave that alone. So, so anyway, where was I? So, yeah. Um, I was like, what am I gonna do? I did have an opportunity to move to the competitor from like the head of Lucent. Oh, okay. They were really supportive of me moving over to Qualcomm. Oh yeah. And I was gonna do that. Yeah. But had nice fat salary. Were you a great benefits package and it blah? It would've been nice. Probably. Who knows? But I, I really sat and gave it some thought and I had a severance, so I had some time. Yeah. And I said, you know, I still have this pain from like my childhood, from my sister passing and I really wanna do something about that. I didn't wanna go cure cancer cuz I knew that wasn't really something I could do. But I did wanna do something in alternative medicine. They didn't wanna focus cuz I, I, I was thinking earlier of going into western medicine or, but that was too much of a burden. Cause I would've literally had to, well then you'd have to give somebody chemo that they didn't want someday or something. Well see that or whatever. Yeah. I didn't wanna change. I don't think I could change the system, but I wanted to work in it. And so I literally googled alternative medicine. I was in San Diego and their Pacific College Oriental Medicine came up I'm like, huh, acupuncture. And I literally went and got my first acupuncture. Oh yeah. And I was like, huh. And it was this Chinese woman that didn't speak English, and she put these needles in me and all of a sudden I just felt tears. Wow. And she didn't even, she couldn't really tell me why I was crying. And she just wiped my tears away and walked away. Right. She didn't have the words, she didn't tell me that you might have a big release. This is your body being balanced, you know? Right, right. It was really powerful though. And um, back then I was a vegan and she's like, here's some herbs. I'm like, is there, you know, meat in here? Is there any, and I was like, I'm not taking your herbs. You know, I was, I was horrible. So I didn't really understand that. You were like woke before woke was a thing and now you're. Just maybe, am I not? Huh? No, you're not good. Okay. I appreciate that. But not in the intolerant. Like, I'm better than you kind of way that I didn't mean that word. No, no. Yeah. Anyway. So anyway, I, but you were then, I mean, little bit like, you're like, is there must better not being a beat in this, you know, I'm being Yeah. I just, I was like, Hey, I don't, whatever, when I put him, how long had you been vegan? Like, we didn't talk about that yet. It was, well, remember my grandfather, I, I have the energy to succeed in all this business stuff. My grandfather started a slaughterhouse, right? He was one of the early CAFOs. All right. You know, that's like bad karma, but like, like Jersey like when did you go vegan and were you like, oh, I, I was sick. My, myself, I was, I had to eat meat from a very early age and it really made me ill. Mm-hmm. That was another piece of this. I mean, I was in, I would go to the doctor with so much pain, like stomach pain because I had to eat all this meat and for me and I, blood type A, I have no idea if that's part of it, but yeah, it didn't sit well with me. Yeah. And they would look at me and they'd say after they stuck that thing up me and looked in my stomach and everything seemed to be moving right. They would look at me and say, oh, honey, it's all in your head. Right? And I can tell you, Kurt, it wasn't in my head And if you'd have just had Mediterranean salads more regularly or something like that, you'd have felt a lot better. That's, I think that's the case or whatever, right? Yeah. So that, so I chose to not eat meat because it just made me feel better right at that time. Interesting. Yeah. And it was probably, I suspect it was almost like from over indulgence cuz you had the slaughterhouse. So like meat was on the menu. All what, what type of meat That was too. These cows are not very happy, you know? Right. But do you remember when you, like, stopped eating meat basically? Yeah. It was right after I moved out of the house. Oh really? Yeah. You were basically like forced to eat meat. Yeah. It was on the menu while you were at your house and then you went, you moved too late and you're like, I'm a vegan now. Well, and I don't think I was vegan. I just think I, I just played around with not eating a lot of meat and I felt better. Fair. Okay. I felt better. I still feel a little bit better. Yeah. But I, you know, I know you're a moderate, like you eat more fish than meat even still, right? Yeah. And a little chicken. But it, for me it depends on how was the meat raised, you know? Yeah. Was it raised in a, in a good environment because Yeah. because you're eating all that bad, you know? Yeah. You really are. You're eating their adrenaline and all the stuff that, all the, the hormones that come in there when they're, when they're killed. Like if, if you, like, if you could eat a raccoon that was killed with a happy death instead of with a violent death, would you be happier to Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But you wouldn't, like, you'd rather eat a happy because it wasn't raised a raccoon that was raised happily and died without too much trauma would be better than a chicken that was raised in a modern agricultural pen. Right? I don't know. I've never eaten raccoon. I don't either. I can't tell you. I'm just curious. So I, I don't want it dwell here because people will be like, these people are weird. ok. About this. Let's move on. Let's, let's, so we'll move on. Please. Well, but it was pretty, you're a free thinker. That's one of the things that, uh, I think we resonate on is that what we should think hasn't been prescribed to us by anybody else. Absolutely. Especially not any single person, but definitely not any even plank of the world. Yeah. And I think, you know, Kurt, I, I was raised in Wichita with, um, you know, my sister that was really sick, and then I. Have anybody to turn to from the time of 16 on you? How for a long time your best friend or anything like I'm saying parent par parental, of course my friends were, were wonderful, but I didn't have a lot of, you know, people dying me because they were, somebody checked out, they were just like, what the heck just happened? Reeling from that. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of, after I think the age of 16, they were there. Certainly had financial support and, but I didn't have a lot of, I didn't have a lot of structure. I didn't have a lot of people telling me, you need to believe this way or go this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, so I, fair enough. Yeah. That allowed me to, to be free. You start studying acupuncture is where we started chasing the squirrel. You took an acupuncture session with a Chinese lady that didn't say a word, but wiped away your tears, which was nice. Yes, it is really nice. Uh, and so then I started, I literally went and interviewed with the school and I was like, huh, this is really fascinating. Then I realized, wow, acupuncture is one of the only modalities out there where you literally touched somebody with your hands. You know, you touch somebody and you can heal them. And it just really resonated with me and I just started going to the classes and I'll tell you, I didn't really understand it for a couple years. Yeah, yeah. And it took me a long time and I was like, this is weird. Why do they speak so strangely? Why do they say blood deficiency? Why don't they just say anemic? An anemic? You know? Um, and I was like, why can't they rename it? But then I realized the art and the beauty in it, and, um, especially when I started understanding the Japanese. Way of, of understanding it or the classical pieces of it. And it just, uh, yeah. Kind of took off from there. And I, I, I spread it out. I was having my kids at the time. Okay. So I took a lot of time. And how did you start having children? Oh, cart. That wasn't spontaneous because of the veganism or anything. Was it dog cheesy? So we're, yeah. So I had met, I had met my husband right before my layoff. Okay. So, and remind me his name. I'm, yeah. Samuel. Samuel, yeah. Thank you. Yes. Hi. I met him. I know you're gonna listen to this one. Samuel. So, yeah, I met him like right before, and so he's, he was with me on this whole change. You, he's like, so this, so what is going on? This kind of, this corporate woman that I married, right? Yeah. Or that you, you were already married at this time? Well, we, we, Hmm? Were we married? Yeah, we were. Okay. Huh. Um, so like, what was that circumstance like? Were you, do you just met him and boom, I wanna marry this guy. Kind of. I had made a list of what, what I wanted. It didn't have any, it didn't have any, nothing to do with him being there had an impact in his career chase, or the acupuncture looks or anything like that. Well, remember I told you I was, I didn't have a lot of luck, so I wanted to do it Right. And so I didn't go headstrong into another corporate job. Right. I listened to him say, you know what, maybe we take a little, reflected him a little bit. That's why I had an opportunity. We're smarter together sometimes. Exactly. And Right. You know, I, I also could have gone, I think, I dunno if it was India or I had an opportunity with Lucid Right. To actually travel Right. For a year in another country or, and I'm like, I could have done all those things, but no, I needed to chill out and yeah. Stay home and, you know, and, and you met Samuel. I was older. He was sweet. And you were, and he was young enough to not have kids. Right. Which was beautiful. And, and just a, a beautiful soul. So, and what was he doing? Is he in a tech kind of guy? Yeah, he was a Qualcomm. Okay. So he was with a competitor and then he had just, uh, moved to Ericsson and then they had these massive layoffs. So he was also in a transit. Yeah. Erickson Transit was like a European company finished or something like that. Right. And they were losing market share terribly at that time. Yeah. Yeah. Swedish. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Nok was the finish one. Yes. Correct. Well, Nokia, um, ended up buying loosened, so Yeah, they are, I don't know. It was a mess. Incestuous stuff going on there. Yeah. So anyway, so yeah. So, so, so you, we were both in the telecom, so you at this time that you're basically becoming a, a married partnership and you're investing in your education and knocking out kids. Yep. And maybe not even working a whole lot for a while in terms of that, but really investing in yourself and your knowledge. Right. Yeah. So I wanted to be, be there for my kids and I think I was there physically, which was great. I, I know that it was, took a lot on me mentally to go through school. Cause it's a lot. It's four year degree. Well, and you still set out to figure out. How to fix your hurt from your sisters and cartoon and Exactly. Stuff. Were you still on that journey by this point? And were you still I was just beginning that journey. Yeah. Which is crazy because I was really trying to get rid of that pain. You know? I think kind of, I suspect that meeting Samuel and having him be there to help hold the tent pole of your life and stuff, like you were so focused on your career and just survival, survival and staying on that and, and, and succeeding and excellence and all these things. And then he is here and he is like, Hey, you've been like holding up this tent pole all by yourself for a long time. I could help hold that while you figure out you, even if he didn't say that. Yeah. It was quite generous of him actually. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Um, it allowed me that freedom to explore, and I guess it's California and so like people exploring things like Pilates and acupuncture. Like in Kansas, if your new wife like gets laid off and decides not to take a different job and goes to become an acupuncturist, you're like, oh, I'm not sure about this choice. But we were in California. But in California it's fine. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I, I suppose so. by the way, I'm way ahead on wine drinking. So far your wine is, needs attention. I can't, believe me, you don't want me drinking anymore, You're good. I'm really good. Okay. Alright. I think. Um, so like, take me through those years. Like what did you learn? What were some of the epiphanies? Like you said, it was kind of a couple years before you really even knew what was really going on. Yeah. I was like, what the heck? I just didn't get it. Yeah. And I was reading and you know, I was used to studying philosophy and all these stuff from political economy and my degree in at Tulane. And, but it just was like, whoa. It was just so deep. And they say it's kind of like a spiral. You have to go around many different times and then finally you go around again and you're like, oh, that's what that all meant because there's so much to put together. It's an art really. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it took me quite a while cause I didn't, I didn't, I I love the art of it. I don't, I'm not a process kind of gal. No, I'm not like the tech technical part of it. That didn't make sense to me. You can stick needles in someone and you, but it didn't work. Mm. I didn't find that it really worked when I did that. Yes. If you do it one inch above the ankle bone, that doesn't really work. If you do it like in the right feel place. That it does. Yeah. And they're just all these strategies and they just didn't seem to work for me. Yeah. You know, cuz every, the end of every channel has these element points. There's a fire, metal, water or wood, you know, and Yeah, but what does that really mean? Well, you really can't understand that until you really understand what do these elements really mean, you know, in general. Right. And how do they relate to nature and how do they relate to the body? And so it's just such a beautiful art. So I want to come back after a short break and, um, talk about that fire metal water wood a little bit. And like, I know we can't like, put years of education into a one hour podcast, but I do want to help people understand a little bit what, cause I think I understand a little bit about that stuff intuitively from listening to you and Diana, one of my other members. And like, it's really intriguing and not that, not as mysterious as, it seems more intuitive than it is. I don't know, maybe I'm lying. You, you don't think it's intuitive? Maybe to some It is, you know, I think, yeah. It's like a, it's like an unknowing, like we already know this, but yeah. To really understand it is, is quite complex. Totally. I, and I don't think I understand it. I think I intu like it feels intuitively correct and it's probably got a lot to do with trust. Frankly, like knowing that you've looked into it enough that I can trust your, you could be feeding my eyes meaningful of bologna. Right. And I just believe you That's fine. We'll come back. Okay. Okay, and we're back. Um, so when we left off, we were talking about the five elements and the, the fire, water, wood. Um, and we just had a technical glitch and missed a bunch of stuff, and it looks like it's still working, but, um, we had a wonderful conversation about it. No, we did. I wanna go back to the constitutions. Yeah. And kind of the, you started talking about water and how we kind of come from there and we eventually go to there, but then along the way we're wood or we're fire. You called yourself fire earlier. I think I'm fire. I think you're fire too. Um, yeah. So talk to me about those things a little bit for the, well, we can, relative to uninitiated, we kind of get stuck in that we've changed a squirrel in a certain constitution. We, we have a little bit of all of them in us. Okay. Just like, you know, in nature, you see all the, the, the different elements out there and they're all working together in coordination and you need one, it makes all of those to really make a good system. Absolutely. You need, you're right. You need the sun for everything. We need our heart. Yeah. The sun is, is our heart. Right? That's where power comes from, kind of. Yeah. Not quite that uh, joy. You know, there's certain emotions that go with, with each of the elements. Okay. Um, so the sun is connected to fire. The sun is connected to fire. The sun is life. Marines joy is, um, um, uh, the sun. It's, I don't wanna go here because I'm not a five element. Oh, okay. And so there, there's so many different ways of looking at it. I, I can talk about it in terms of how I use it in my practice. That's fair. Let's just go somewhere else. Yeah. Because it's, that's so simplistic and it's not, okay, I'm gonna come back. Okay. Appreciate that. And actually, the Jewish stuff was even way more interesting you think to, to people here. Yeah. Oh, why? So, um, we could talk about five elements if you like and we're back And so we just had a technical glitch and wasted like 20 minutes of conversation. But, um, we went to a few different places, but we, we jumped off of five elements. And then my really, my follow up question was about whether you've taken the time to, to learn Japanese or Chinese and get kind of the deeper understanding beyond the doctorate that you've already earned. Um, and we, we have to take a class in Chinese, like how it relates to the medicines. We, we all learn a little bit about it, but the people that have really studied it and can translate, cuz there's so much of the ancient text, remember it's not just Chinese. Yes. It's the ancient Chinese. Even before the current, even before the script that they have now. And so people have to actually translate that. And so the people that have done it and are doing it are. I mean, there's so much of it that needs to be translated. So much knowledge out there that we don't even know. There's some that hasn't even been translated yet. Absolutely. Yeah. And where is it? Like is it in the library? Yeah. Is somewhere in China. Like, you know, it's a good question. The digital world, they know, it's almost like well, so much was, was destroyed. Right. So they found, they found some of it, you know? Well, yeah. And you find pieces or things right. And there isn't like a cohesive place. Like one of the beautiful things about the Bible, uh, is, and even the Torah before it, is that like, it kind of both sucks and it's beautiful that there was a decider about what belongs in this book and we just keep it together bound in this little cover. Right, right, right. And the same, the, the same isn't necessarily true about Chinese medicine. Well, no, it, you know, Chinese medicine is so interesting because in these ancient texts, they believed that it was gonna destroy the medicine by putting it in a book. And so that, believe it or not, oh wow. It was only, it was so is it was a oral tradition. Yeah. It was disciple and it was disciple and teacher and conversation. And, and so it was, there was a lot of debate back then, thousands of years ago about putting it into text. So a lot of these texts are actual dialogue. Wow. Yeah. Their dialogue between, um, the emperor and like an antagonist and a protagonist type of a thing. Yeah, pretty much. And that's how we learn. We learn by debate, we learn by conversation. Oh, wow. And so they wrote the, the books like this. Oh. And so that's why when, you know, I'm a free speech, Liberty trumpet in whatever, you're easy to agree because you see the value of that discourse kind. I do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and this is another topic altogether. We could chase a squirrel, but take me back to your place in life. So you, you've gotten your doctorate, now you've got some littles that are now four and six or something like that. And before too long you're gonna move to Colorado. No. Or what was that circumstance? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, and was Samuel still like working in high tech while you're like bebopping around and having kids and doing stuff? Um, he actually had the opportunity to, uh, run a couple, uh, restaurants. Oh. So he was running, he was a restaurant. He was running, um, some restaurants in San Diego. And we realized, you know, we didn't own those buildings and the restaurant business could. You know, fall, like he was a restaurateur. Yeah. When he started restaurants? No, he, he or whatever. He, he was a franchise. He was running. Okay. So he had two of them. And really, and did you guys just jump into that? Like, I have to think that there was a lot of, there was a, a family connection, introspection. Okay. It was a family connection there and it was an opportunity that landed in our lap, so. Okay. Um, he took that opportunity, he was like, I'm kind of tired of working in tech two da da duh. The tech was going down. Yeah. Oh, right. They, he also ha was laid off from Ericsson and Okay. And yeah. And he didn't get that Qualcomm package that so many people did. Were Qualcomm stock. Um, he, he unfortunately went to the Erickson side, so Yeah. So he was kind of starting over. Um, we both were starting. And then what's the f. Um, and what was that like? Yeah, so no, it was tough. Oh, it was tough. It's amazing We stayed together It's really, really hard. Yeah. But you know, gave him the opportunity to be an amazing dad. Yeah. Gave him the opportunity to run. He ran, it was 50 people by the time we left and he managed it. Left two locations. Two locations. He managed it amazingly well. Like fast casual. You love it was, it was pizza. Okay. Yeah. Mountain Mike's Pizza Mountain. Mike's Pizza restaurant. Interesting. He, uh, he did a lot of the artwork for the whole franchise and, um, and he ran, and we were the first gluten free pizza. Oh, so you guys were like early stage, one of the first, first gluten free. Right. And, uh, yeah. But even, even with Mountain Mikes, like if he was designing some of the artwork from the franchise No, no, no. They just allowed him to change all of it, to update it a little bit. They'd been around for a while and, you know, yeah. They needed an update. Yeah. Um, so he, um, he managed those and we realized we didn't own the, the, the building. Right. And, uh, this could go down anytime. And so we ended up, he, he had an amazing opportunity to do some real estate development here. Fort Collins was Okay. Growing and, and, uh, you know, and so we took that opportunity four years ago, you kind of grabbed your chips and like, and sold the restaurants and moved out here right before Covid and, uh, bought some property and said the only thing that could go wrong is universities closed down. And that's exactly what happened. Oh, so you guys bought some like college rental properties and stuff like that? Yep. So we, we survived that. Um, and I was trying to, you know, build my practice right up here and it was a difficult time, but we've, we've gotten through it. Yeah. I didn't realize you never showed it on your face, how challenged you were. Um, it's not necessary. Why do people need it? Because we met at a Chamber of Commerce meeting early on. That's right. Yeah. and, uh, you were working for another practice at acupuncture practice here in town. Yeah. Yeah. I just decided cuz in California you can't actually have acupuncture as work for you. It was kinda interesting. So I was like, oh, cool. I could just tour practice. You have to be like a sole practice. Yeah. Oh yeah. So, um, yeah, I jumped on that opportunity, um, to work for someone else when I first moved here because we, you know, we were, I was just starting to get my kids settled. They were in middle school at that time. Right. So I, yeah. In that lesson not too long and then you kind of, you Yeah. You wanted to be your own. Yeah. There it wasn't, it it, um, there was so much process focus there and I wanted, you know, I went like the magic of the medicine and the art. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The process was, was great and all, all that interesting. This one Yeah. Where I was focused. Yeah. I appreciate that. And so that's when you met these other living wells. Yeah, I guess that were coming back, circling around, yeah. It's beautiful opportunity to jump in with an integrated practice. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, like, talk to me about those earliest, so when did you like put the, put the sign out on the door? Uh, that I'm in business for myself now. You know, it was, uh, I don't even remember the year but it was, uh, 20 19 3, yeah, 2019. Probably like September-ish. Really? Frame. Oh wow. So, so you only had a few months before Covid? Before Covid. Oh yeah. Oh wow. I didn't realize that. You were so new. So new. So you were only, I forget when did. I've come to see you first. I think it was 2021. Yeah. It was the fall of 20. Yeah. No, two years later even maybe. Yeah. Um, anyway, I didn't realize you were so new. You didn't present as a rookie because I, you know, I look old. It works, it kind works in this profession. You are kind of old, right? So am I I appreciate that. You look a lot younger than you are. Yeah. Wisdom. Correct. For what it's worth. Um, and so do I You can say that back. Absolutely. Thank you. You do. We have so much wisdom too. Yeah. So tell me about like, the earliest days and, and even what you've learned to now. Um, like about Well, I, I learned that I gotta keep on learning. Yeah. And I also am so, I feel so fortunate cuz in San Diego, um, one of my, someone that came to my door, um, was a trigger point therapist who, um, was paralyzed from an accident. Okay. And he said, you know, these Western docs can diagnose me pretty well. You know, they know it's a c2, c3 and a, you know, I have all these issues. Um, but they can't, they don't know how to help me. Yeah. And he had this weird machine around his neck. I'm like, okay, what are you wearing? And he's like, well, I'd like to keep this on during my treatment. I'm like, oh, okay. What is it? And he's like, oh, it's a men machine. I'm like, okay. It runs frequencies. And you know, he's like, I've been running it. And he's like, I was completely paralyzed. Now I'm, I'm not. I was like, okay. So. what it was, was a frequency specific microcurrent machine. Oh, wow. So I was introduced to it, um, back then. And I watched over a year's time this guy that was literally paralyzed from a, an accident, he, um, had a huge laceration on his head and has a neck injury and was paralyzed. Wow. And I watched this guy not only get back to the shape he was in prior to the accident, but actually be in even better shape. And, uh, he uses this technology in his practice and he dragged me to his teacher who happened to be an acupuncturist. Okay. Shannon Goen. And I'll never forget it. And I was still skeptical, like, what is this? You know? Right. We're Chinese for ancient medicine kind of people. We don't do frequency machines and, and stuff. Right. Like it's almost the opposite land. And I was like, well, I kind of know my modality. And you get stuck. You get stuck in your modality. Yeah. You know, even acupuncture be stuck in our five element, or I'm Japanese, or I'm this. And it just kind of opened up my world. And then I bought my first machine and then I started using it. And, and this is, I don't think I would've done that had I not seen what it did to What's the machine? What's the technology? So frequency specific Microcurrent, it's a technology that was used in the twenties, 1920s. Oh. And there this machine was, um, found, um, by a practice that Carol McMahon, Dr. Carol McMahon is kind of the. she's inspired this too. She kind of brought it back to fruition her because they found a list in this practice. Someone purchased it through someone she knew, and it's a whole history of, of how the practice came to her or how this machine came to her with this list. She started testing these frequencies. Oh. So it's been 35 years as she's been testing these frequencies. And, and they work. It was like it died because people weren't paying attention to it. And then they were, people were losing, you know, lists came along to her. Well, because the flex Flex, you know about the Flexner report. I mean, way back when, um, there was about a hundred homeopathic schools, they all got shut down. Oh, yes. Franklin Roosevelt like was a, wasn't it him? Uh, I honestly don't know. There were a whole bunch of people like Carnegie and more whole bunch of more, because they own a bunch of hospitals and stuff. Yeah. Yes. So they, that's where just learned about, and you can read about it. The, the flexor report was a big, uh, report that changed, um, medicine where they made medicine like be dominated by western medicine and kind and pharmaceuticals included in pharmaceuticals and everything that couldn't be proven by scientific model. The pharmaceutical, you know, the model Yeah, yeah. That you needed to get rid of because it wasn't science. Oh, yeah. And so that, um, though I think these were around back then, you know, but, so she's brought them back to life and she hasn't paired them with a, with a device. I think that's been very helpful. It creates these frequencies and these study. Yeah. She teaches the F frequencies and there's a bunch of different devices you can use them with and. And so yeah, I've been using that, studying that anyway for quite a while. Oh, and there's other, what's the, what's the German thing? It's got a funny little, the Healy? Yes. So the Healy is very interesting. So that's a bunch of frequencies, um, uh, that has been brought to light by a guy named Marcus Shiki. And it's more of a mood? No, um, or it's also physical? No, it's, it's the same. It's similar, but its similar technology. Mono frequencies. So Carol McMahons are dual. There's two, one is a frequency focused on an issue, and the other frequencies focused on a tissue with these Healy frequencies. They're just a single frequency that does a, a certain thing. And a guy in, um, Portugal, named Nino Nunez actually came up with these, these, these frequencies and, uh, Marcus Shiki brought them to light with the Healy. And I don't like the marketing of it, but it's quite, it's quite an interesting machine. Yeah. Has an oscillator in it. Does have a little bit of a, like, Healy is just a little too pretentious, almost even as a name for my taste. I think so. I don't know. It's like, it's an interesting device, your solution. So the, the, the Healy actually has this ability to like read your energy and then give you feedback. Right. That the frequencies that freaks me out a little bit. Yeah. Well, but you know me, I'm like a skeptic until you prove me otherwise. Kind of, and I've been proven otherwise by so many different experiences. Good for you. For being open to that. Yeah. You know, and it, and sometimes it's herbs, sometimes it's drugs, sometimes it's, you know, I drugs the start of my like, um, what do you wanna call it? Like we haven't gone there yet, but the start of my kind of insecurity about western medicine of sorts came when my vet wanted to put double knee replacement on my dog. Oh. Back in 2007. And then I got another friend was like, Hey, try these glucosamine, uh, supplements. Supplements and things. Andro and glucose. Yeah. And I like, instead of spending $6,000 on new dog knees, I spent $200 on a bunch of supplements and stuff. And four months later she was great. And she lived without needing knee replacement for six years, seven years. Yeah. That's where we were. We were talking about being stuck in our silos and I was so skeptical. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna spend $7,000 my dog, I'd rather shoot her, you know, I'm farm. That's how we are. We, we grow up. But you get pushed out of that. You get pushed into your what, you know. Right. And you don't know what you don't know. Right. And so what I've been so fortunate to, to, I think you get bumped outta your lane a little bit here and there. Yeah. And then to be open to, you know, these other modalities. And I think we all have to be, you know, there's a, there's a time and place for all of it. So do you think of kind of your high, your frequency. Healing stuff as being complimentary to Oh yeah. Acupuncture. But it's still like, in this almost, it could be in the same book if there was a book of acupuncture, or is it, you know, there's so many different ways to heal separate science, you know? Um, I think there's so many similarities. Uh, I, I think what we're trying to do for the body to heal, you can't be in that fight or flight mode. You can't be running from the tiger and your body's like, I need to get away from the tiger. So you're more of a healer than you are a practitioner in some ways. I feel like, like a better term of ex expression, whatever. I don't know. Yeah. You know, I, I don't know. Um, but I think the point is you have to be in that rest and relaxation mode for someone to heal in general. Hmm. And if you're not, you have to relax. That's, we, we do bedrest, right? That's why we take, eat the chicken soup. Right. I guess you have to rest to heal. And so my goal is to get someone in that relaxed state and in that relaxed state, the, so one of the things I do with every patient is I run something called the. The nervous system reboot. Oh, protocol. Okay. So kind of reboots your nervous system. It works on the brain, works on the body, and it kind of tells your system to chill out and relax. And it's okay, we can change now, we can heal. Hmm. So FSM has really helped me with that to get the body into that state. You can do it with acupuncture as well. It just some, I feel like this is a little bit faster. Mm-hmm. F sm is the frequency sound, the frequency specific. Microcurrent. Yeah. That, yeah. I knew what you were talking about. I just didn't know the, you know, insider talk. I don't know what f sm is. Sorry. It's okay. Um, so like we kind of deviated from that, the question like, how do you, you rent a space, you put your flag up, you start going to chamber meetings and stuff like that. Like what does, like turning all this knowledge into a sustainable practice look like in your, in your case? Yeah. I struggle. I still struggle with it. Yeah. Kurt, I'll be honest with you. I've told you to raise your prices and do different things and Well, I'm a turtle. Sometimes you spend 30 minutes more with me than you're supposed to I know. And I feel so well loved and with everyone it's part of the problem. Yeah. Um, and so I'm, I'm really working on, that's why I'm so happy to work with you. Um, but I'm really, Heidi's a new member of local Think Tank just joined. Yeah. Yeah. So happy. Um, because I do need to figure out how to. to be a little bit more efficient and effective, but Yeah. Well, I, I think I'm effective, but I'm not efficient. The more efficient you are, the more people you can help. Yeah. And so that's what I'm working towards, but I am kind of a turtle. I don't like to throw needles in and walk away. Yeah. I really feel like, you know, I need to be there a little bit. So, so I'm, I'm probably gonna, you know, I'm always gonna spend at least 20 to 30 minutes with my patients. Yeah. Or at least the people I work with are going to spend 20. It's part of what we do. Yeah. And, and I think that should be a limit, but I haven't quite gotten there yet. You're really, I think what your highest and best use is, is, is totally restricted by being a one-on-one prediction practitioner all the time. I think you've knitted together some really special knowledge that could help other people relay that to more. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. I see. There's an opportunity really as a teacher. Yeah. I wanna, that's what I wanna grow into, um, at some point soon. Yeah. I think you can. That's my goal. Um, and because I know I've had great experience. So let's, let's go back to, let's, let's have a few examples of like, healings that you've done. Yeah. You know, like they, one of I'll just seen talk about some recent stuff, um, because they heal themselves. Yeah. Right. Health, just a catalyst with your space. Exactly. Which just everyone's, everyone heals themselves. We're just catalysts. Yeah. Um, so there was a woman that had. A pretty bad car accident and had severe jaw damage. Okay. And she had, you don't mind if I keep drinking wine, by the way? No, go right ahead. go right ahead. Um, do you want me to drink another bottle? No, just, just limit it to that water. So tell me about the car accident. Uh, so she, She, uh, had several surgeries, you know, reconstructive surgery. They had to reconstruct her jaw and it was pretty bad. Yeah. But they were able to do a really good job. And she, she looked pretty good. She had this really, her tooth had come through her lip and, um, her, the left side of her jaw had to be complete. It was a new jaw. Oh, it wasn't even her, her jaw. Um, and she had some limitations to her tongue movement. So she had a whole bunch of scar tissue, you know, and this was, and so I worked on her. She had came in with fibromyalgia actually. Oh. Focused a little bit on her jaw, but she didn't think there was much, that wasn't a big deal. She wasn't where she was focused, she was focused on her fibromyalgia. And we were able to clear that up pretty quickly. Which is like nerve pain kind of stuff, is that right? It's joint pain. Joint pain. More, yeah, like, like bi bilateral joint pain, hips and knees. Her knees were swollen. She came in with horrible, swollen legs and we were able to, to, to, to work with that. I'd say in the, a matter of six weeks or so, that was kind of, um, pretty dope. Taken care of. It was taken care of. It really wasn't as much of an issue. She walked without pain. Yeah. And, you know, she was kind of surprised. And, and so then she was like, well, can I do anything with this, with my jaw? And I was like, well, let's talk about it. So we started focusing on the jaw and um, uh, you know, the frequencies can. when you, let's think, let me explain how this works, right, please. Yeah. If someone sings, you know, a certain note and it can, um, resonate with a glass, not that note, it's more high. Oh, you know, I can do it. There you go. Sometimes you can break a glass if you get the right resonance. Right. We've all seen how that can happen. And you can, and, and, um, you know, you have a remote control, it only opens up your car. Right, right, right. So with that, that certain frequency opens up that door, but not another door. So there's certain frequencies that once you, you know, you can, you can you apply it to the problem. Right. And it can materially make a change, huh? Right. Okay. Because it's oscillating. I'm, because everything, this is all in the quantum. Right, right. And so this is stuff we don't really quite, you know, we don't learn or we don't really understand. Yeah. It's not really science cuz we can't like recreate it, but we start to see trends. Right. Because our presence in it changes it. Right. So how does that science, you know Right. When you can't really replicate it. Right. And if you're as the practitioner in like a funky mood because you got in a fight with your kid this morning, like you could totally impact the way that you treat patient. That's right. You have to be super clear when you're treating people. Yeah. And separate yourself a little bit, I imagine. Well you don't separate, which isn't easy, easy for you. Oh. You can't separate cause you're there. You really are clear. You really become clear. You literally have to empty all that out and get really good at that. To be a good practitioner, I believe. Yeah. Um, but anyway, back to the, yeah, sorry, the resonance. Um, so, so yeah. So you started working on her. Yeah. So it started, so one of the things that I was able to do, you run a certain hertz, okay. Cause our body is really oscillating in the hertz. Yeah. So 13 hertz, for example, seems to, um, disrupt scar tissue. Okay. So we could run 13 hertz on the different tissues in her jaw. Mm. And we were able to get her tongue to move again. Mm-hmm. Her tongue was able to, and really let her body allow for that new jaw that was, and that opening and, and feel her, her, she could never even move her tongue to the left and feel her cheek. So she was ob she was so excited about that. That was the biggest thing. And then she was, we were able to, like, as she was moving her tongue on her lip where she had put the tooth had went through her lip uhhuh, there was a huge mass there. Mm-hmm. She was able to move her tongue and let it, and feel it literally diminish and become less, less dense. So she's massaged the scar tissue in her lip while we were running the frequency in it within, you know, a few minutes it started to be less fat and, and feel more normal. And so, you know, so this was something that we, we just, I just did the other day and it was just, she woke, she walked outta there. So happy. You know, her like a new, like a changed woman and she'll come back probably she Yeah. For a while. Right? Yeah. These things don't just happen overnight. Um, well yeah, cuz well, I don't know. I, when, when something like that happens, you know, we we're kind of done with that part and so, right. A lot of times people will then start to just come from a inance, so they'll come every two weeks or, and then we'll spread it out to maybe once a month. Yeah, yeah. Or I have some, I have a lot of people coming just once a month and you hook 'em up to some of these frequency tester machines and see what they need and then zap 'em in the right spot with the right juice or No, these things, it's a little more intuitive than that. Like I've got No, actually, you know, I, I actually give most of my patients that have been with me for a while, they usually get a pad, they get a frequency, A Beamer. No, don't use Beamers. Youre so funny. Beamers are really cool. Um, but that, that works a lot. Isn't that a frequency thing too? I believe it is. Yeah. I've had massage people try to, like, I thought, yeah, I don't know what frequencies. I have a, um, oh, what's that? It's a different, oh my goodness. The beamers are for rookies. Is that what I'm sensing here? A little bit? Um, no, no. Beamers are wonderful. They're wonderful for opening and dilating blood vessels and, and decreasing inflammation and I don't, you know, but it's not a frequency thing necessarily. It's more magnetic. I think possibly, I honestly don't know. It could be Pmm f postal electromagnetic fields. I honestly don't know how it was not your, not your bag. I don't know. I wish I knew all the technology. I bet I've used it, but I just don't remember. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I use a bio in my practice bio. Okay. It's got some far infrared and Yeah, some, some tormaline and, and some stones in there that help with, with infr. So now we're talking about light, not frequency, but I guess light is frequency, right? Like sound turns into light at a certain place. And time in a way, is that an accurate representation? Right, because cuz infrared is definitely a frequency. Yeah. So though that's on the light spectrum and there's, there's far infrared and then there's infrared Right. Are all before red. Right. Right. So it's all about the light. And so it's all strictly light. And do light and sound not have an interface. And there it's measured, it's measured differently. I think it's measured in nanometers versus well probably cause it doesn't hurts. So it's just physical measurement in the same way. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like light doesn't move things like sound does. Sound has to necessarily, like that's where your frequency stuff works is cause it's vibrating your, your stuff. Right. It's wavelengths. Yeah. Yeah. It's hurts measured. Yeah. And, and so yeah. And light hits us. and generally resist. So talk to me about the infrared stuff. Is that something that you're, well, it's just very healing. So the, like, we need the sun, right? Right. And so, you know, we've come up with all these devices now to replicate and give us the, the sun that we're never in or the parts of the sun that we need. Fair. Right? Yeah. So if we would just be outside in the sun, if we would catch the sunrise and catch the sunset and that, that, that sun, that that's at 20 degrees, that is like the best time to get really the sun. Those, that light is what we're trying to, to emulate. Oh, really? Oh yeah. One of my favorite things is like that time in the fall where it's pretty chilly to be outside, but it's always super clear. Maybe it's September, you know, late September. And I'll go outside with just like my, not my boxer shorts on, but I like the shorts I wear when I do yoga. Uhhuh. Okay. Right. And so it's just me outside in my backyard with my shorts and like every inch of me is soaking up sun and it's, it's 40 degrees outside. Right. But I'm sucking up enough rays from the sun at a low angle that I can just stay warm enough not to put my robot and go back inside and Yeah. And there's, you know, and I just like it and well, you, your skin feels good and you feel good, but what's really amazing is the receptors in our eyes. Yeah. I love looking at things at that time of day. Exactly. So when you look at the. Right from the first hour of sunrise and then the last hour before sunset. Okay. That tho that light. This is Dr. Klinghardt's work looking actually at the sun. Yeah. Dr. Klinghardt, I believe, um, has done, your results may vary. Like Dr, don't burn your eyes. Sorry, Jack listeners. Dr. Jack Cruise has done all this work and it's amazing, um, sci the science behind this. But that light is giving you so much information. It's giving you melatonin. The morning light is giving you melatonin information for that night to sleep well. It's regulating your circadian rhythm, what your, it's regulating your, your cortisol, your, your, your melatonin cycle. Interesting. It's giving you serotonin information and it, it's giving your, your, your gut information to make serotonin. So there's so much information in the sun. So I think, you know, we're trying to replicate this with all this machinery too. We're trying to give you that, that light that, that we're missing, man, that's, uh, like attributing that much information to the sun or to light or whatever it like, starts to sound a lot more like God than not God. Well, raw. Think of raw people used to, to worship the sun, right? There were sun worshipers and for, for rightly so. Yeah, for sure. And so, um, gosh, there is so much to unpeel in the space of. acupuncture and why people should go and stuff that I just don't even want to go there. Uh, I'm sure they know already. Come on. Oh, right. Yeah. Nobody knows. Like, you know, for most people acupuncture, you haven't heard of it. Come on. Acupuncture is still pretty much like fringe. Like for what, how many people, what percentage of people do you think, you know, it's growing, it's grow Acupuncture fans, 20%, 30%. It's growing quite a bit. Okay. I think in terms of the number of people that have had acupuncture, it's, it's grown tremendously in the last 10 years. Do you think it's half? Uh, I don't think it's half. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but people have heard of it, right. You know, in the seventies is when kind of came to light. When, uh, Nixon went to China and his Okay. Assistant had to have a, a, a pen appendectomy or something and Okay. I think his heal, he healed through acupuncture really well. Oh, interesting. Somebody was there from the New York Times and he wrote it, he wrote an article about it and everyone was like, whoa. So then everyone's, all these people were getting it illegally and then finally it was licensed. Interesting. Yes. It hasn't been that long thinking about that here in the, in the us so I guess it didn't come over. I guess like I'm thinking about all the, like Chinese for example, that came over and built our railroads and stuff like that in this country, but they were probably the peasantry that didn't really necessarily have that specialized knowledge. Otherwise they wouldn't. sign themselves up. Well, you know, it's, or whatever. It's an interesting history and I can't tell, you know, all the details, but I know even in China, they, they were like, oh, we're so behind. And they got rid of all their, their acupuncturists and they trained western doctors in China. Only the western docs could could do acupuncture. And they realized, whoa, this was wrong. This didn't really work. And he brought back all these interesting, they had to, to kind of rebuild the science, backtrack there too. Rebuild it. And that's where it lost all of its beauty, you know? Mm-hmm. Interesting. Um, what more do you wanna tell me about your business journey? Like what are, let's talk about what are you trying to create? You, you just talked a little bit. I was encouraging you too, not be your own. I wanted to buy a, uh, to buy a t-shirt or give us a gift. Uh, I just came by your chapter meeting today. You're a late substitution, people should know, uh, for, uh, a cancellation I had, but I came by the chapter with some swag today. Yeah, yeah. It was awesome. But I've wanted to have a t-shirt for years that says something like, I am the bottleneck to my business. You know, cuz the owner is almost always the bottleneck in some fashion or another. Like, they haven't made the right decision. They haven't had the right person that well. And so what would allow you to, to reduce your level of bottleneck? Do you want to have employees that deliver your kind of goods to the world or, I'm not sure Sure. Yet. Want, do you not, you don't know? I haven't quite figured out the formula yet, but I, I want, I wanna reach a lot more people Yeah. With this, because I feel like. You know, I don't wanna, maybe you should be a YouTube star. No, no, no. You could just get all your clients to sign a little consent form and be like, I'm gonna videotape this and put it on YouTube. But you can, no, you don't think it's informational? I think it's, um, you have to kind of be there, you know? Really? Yeah. I mean, well, there's a couple components because a lot of my patients, um, buy a pad. It's a, it's a frequency specific microcurrent pad. Okay. And this amazing guy, um, JJ Bok, um, do you make a big margin on that pad? No. Right. No, not yet. Some people do. I'm I, nah, no. Hey, you do not do it for that money. No, because it's, it's a way to spread the, the, to spread the information. So instead of just the once a week when they come to see you for an hour, or they can, they can actually continue to, to run it through an app on their phone. Right. So it was, it's the same, you know, these machines are expensive. They're like $2,400. Okay. And, uh, this is a way that we can get it out to people and they can use it after they've left my office. Mm-hmm. And, um, they don't, maybe they don't have to come as often, but, or maybe, um, they don't come at all. I, I have some remote patients now using this. Hmm. Um, I've gotten this, you know, there's a patient I re I I've been treating in Aspen. She comes now like she can only come once a month and her pain has gone down to almost zero just using the pad. Wow. Um, Cool. And so pretty cool. It's kind of cool, right? Because you can do a lot with this pod cuz it's, it's like two speakers and, and you run and I can create customized protocols and then really, so it's actual sound. It's not it's sound, but it's sound that's silent, right? Yeah. Once it goes through, it's going through a mechanism of p em, f pulse, electromagnetic, magnetic filled, um, and that's creating, um, the same thing that we create in the office using these machines. Yeah. But it's running the frequencies so they can run insomnia frequencies or, you know, um, we have one called relax and Balance, which runs through all the body's emotions, um, through the different organ systems. Emotions, like anger is in the liver and fear is in the kidneys. So it runs, um, nine 70 hertz on each organ system so that it can get rid of a lot of the motion. So you can kind of feel more clear. So if you were like a, a maintenance client, like to me that sounds like the right way to use some of that kind of technology is to be like, you know, I'm going to get a, get a scan poo and I'm gonna address the top six kind of areas that need some love because I know that I'm almost never like running on tip top Perfect. Whether it be my physical systems, you might systems or my mental systems might not want a brain fog program. Right? Yeah. So, so you would have a brain, so, and just kind of cycle through right. Almost as a preventative of instead of probably fixing so much Yeah. And preventative as well, right? When you're. Getting so hung up in your emotions and your, your angst, then you're just, you run better, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so there's all kinds of programs we can run. You've seen me in some of my worst actually, when I was, when I had my psoriasis on my lips last fall and whatever that was. Yeah. It doesn't feel bad mentally. Well, physically, I don't care. Like cut my face off, I don't really care. But mentally, emotionally, I was just so like, negatively energized. Right. Right. You can't, you can't operate well that way. Yeah. So, so these, um, the frequencies can also, well, they've been shown to decrease inflammation in the body. Yeah. So that's been really, really amazing. Well, you were, I mean, I should give you some credit. Like, I definitely came in with like a real serious yuckiness going on and, you know, in six weeks time or 10 weeks time or something, we made a real impact on that and it hasn't been back. Oh, that's really wonderful. And so, um, I feel like we've talked about enough medicine. Mm-hmm. um, do you want to go into faith, family or politics next? Whoa, whatever. We've talked about all these things. Maybe just not while being recorded, um, which is your preference? Because everybody has to talk about all three. Oh, we do, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Um, we can talk about politics a little bit. Sure. I'm just gonna talk about it, um, in a kind of a different way, I think. All right. You know, I feel very, you're a political economy major, I remember from Tulane. Right. So I think it's given me a really broad perspective on how we get stuck in one. Okay. You know, one party or the other. One tribe. Yeah. Which has really caused a lot of problems. Right. Okay. And I grew up, um, in Wichita, Kansas, um, supporting, uh, a democrat who was a family friend, Congressman. Okay. Dan Glickman. Oh, uh, Kansas Congress, who's the name. Sounds familiar. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he became, um, um, secretary Edco. You got it. And then some, and then also boom, people are gonna think I'm a smart when they You are so smart. And then, then where did he go? I don't know. Did the film industry, so Oh, really? Yeah. And his son, uh, was also in that industry, but, um, oh, that's cool. So he was a democrat and I actually got to work for him Oh. In Kansas. So that was kind of fun. Yeah. And then, um, I worked for Bob Dole. Oh, really? He was strong Republican. Right. Um, I was a political economy major, and I went to DC so I, I worked on, um, his campaign, his presidential campaign. So was 88 ish Look at you. 17 was, I think it was 88, something like that. I both, anyway, anyway, so yeah. So that, you know, there's republican's Democrat in my back. I can't really, so you're still an independent? Pretty much. Pretty much. I, I mean, yeah. More of an issue, girl. And, uh, so what, let's talk about the issues. Do you wanna talk about hot, hot topic issues? Not really. no. Let's not do that. uh, come on. We can talk about at least a little bit. Well, I'm just saying, I think that, you know, we get so stuck and we're just people, we're just people with, right. And we don't, with we with all the same needs. I like to say, just as I say something doesn't mean I think it, I'm just floating it out there, you know? Um, but like, how should we organize our world? Like, what would be better? Oh gosh. Politically, thank God I don't have to, you don't wanna, thank goodness I'm not, no, I don't. I You just wanna ride in this. Well, that's why I'm not in, you know, I, that's why I'm in healthcare. I don't have to worry about those things. So, um, like on the political topic, uh, ooh. These are current events. We can always do current events. Elon Musk, uh, posted on Twitter today. Um, my pronouns are prosecute fauci. Whoa. Or yesterday maybe it was, it's a little, he's getting a little bit, he might have a little bit of like, no, we know he is a little bit on the, the spectrum, right? He's definitely, yeah, for sure. But he doesn't lie. Like he doesn't really have that button in him. Like what do you think about what I think he wants pay attention to shake. I think he wants to shake things up. Right. You know, and there's nothing wrong with that right now. Yeah. No. Things need shaken up a a little bit. Let's shake things up a little bit. This is, we've been stuck for so long. It's fair. It's, it's ridiculous. Fair. Okay. Pointing fingers when, when we all really just want the same thing. So let's, like how would we fix it? Like he just wants to shake things up and see what happens. Or, I don't know, like, are you a free speech? We talked about speech just a little bit. I think maybe in the part that got deleted, but like allowing for discourse. Right. That was part of the, I dt know if it got deleted or not. We're talking about the disciple and the teacher. Did we? Yeah. I think that all got deleted. Oh yeah. Which was good stuff. So beautiful. Right? So. There was a lot of debate way back when. I hope we're not repeating ourselves. Yeah. A lot of debate way back when in putting stuff down in writing into the, you know, into the ancient text. Yeah. And they were like, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose. Its, it takes the power away almost. It takes, it takes the depth and the knowledge away because you're, it needs to be a disciple and a teacher and the, that back and forth of, of exchange of information. And so they were really worried about putting it down on paper and the way they got around that was, it was put down as a conversation. Yeah. So there was the emperor and then his disciple, and so there was discussion Yeah. Instead of, so that you could kind of be in that exchange instead of just, this is the written word, this is the right and the wrong, you know? Yeah. You know, one thing that that's striking to me is that like, it makes books like a superficial way of understanding things. Hmm. Or just one. One, right. Well, it's from one angle and from one perspective. But it, but it, it was obviously not as deep to those teachers of that ancient medicine as what it can be. Like. Do they use the word disciple? Yeah, they do. Interesting. Yeah. But not from a, like a biblical sense in that fashion, or does that word means pretty much the same thing everywhere and you know what it means? I don't know. But it came before. Yeah. All that. So who knows. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. After the Bible took it from I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. I don't special thieves, those Bible writers. Um, so. Like politically to get back to that Like what, what should we do? Yeah. Like how do we, like it should be open. I think we should be open and I think we should have debates and we should have conversation. Why, why can't we have these conversations? Oh, that crazy Arizona thing where the lady was like, no, I'm not gonna debate you because it somehow tarnishes me to talk to a person like you. Oh, see, I don't even know. Oh, there was, there was, there was several cases frankly, and that's like, I've been always a libertarian really since I was a thinking person and, and an independent, you know, with leaning libertarian tendencies, which makes me tend to be more conservative than, more Yeah, more conservative than progressive. But I'm also very experimental and very curious and very open. Yeah. Which makes me more progressive. And so I have these, yeah. Two dynamic elements of me Elements. Yeah. That would a beautiful way. But like, it's been driving me nuts. The fact that like the, the left side of the spectrum will not engage in debate, will not engage in dialogue, wants to shut down conversation, wants to restrict who can speak. I would like to believe that it's not for a power play, that it's a, you know, a specific reason, but I don't, I don't know. I think it's a brain virus and in some ways like they've literally come to believe that people that don't think like they do are terrible people. Right. And I guess maybe you could say that Christians started that in a way or something. Right? Like they were the ones that said, no, if you don't think what we think, then you're terrible people. Right. If you can't convert to what I Yeah. Right. Or before that, it was the Muslims before that. But America is stitched together of a many styled fabric. Right. You know, and, and the tolerance and acceptance of people that don't think the same as you do. And the, there's some things that are important, and I've always been on that side of, um, well, you know, there's a conservative, there's a conservative way of doing medicine, which was the allopathic way. And then I'm this kind of weird, you know, progressive Right. But ancient you know, um, medicine that's coming in, trying to, to say, I'm here, find a space, look at me, look at me, and Right. And so I've always been on that aspect of kind of the outsider coming in. Yeah. And, and, uh, not with the mainstream, you know? And so I, I like to believe that. I try to think for myself, you know, I don't go with Fair enough. Yeah. I don't go with what is popular or what is, do you think easy regulation is a major problem in our economy today? And like, should we do less of it? Oh, I, I can't comment. Should we do more? I mean, you got, you have licenses, you've got degrees, you've had to do lots of studies. Passports. I, it's a tough one. Right. You know, it's a tough one. I had to go through hell to get where I am, you know, and so part of you wants to say everybody else should go through that same hell. But, but then again, I also know there's brilliant, but I didn't know shit out there that's before then. Right. That, that are, that are really powerful. So I don't know the answer to that. It's a tough one. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a daunting question. Like it's almost the question of our political systems in a way. I think the question though, that I'm more interested in is the fact that, you know, people become medical doctors to do well to, to, to help people. Yeah. You know, but they get so stuck in their dogma. Okay. And unfortunately we've created these insurance companies, we've created much more of a don't think for yourself kind of mentality. Yeah. Whereas in, in that medicine that I do, we we're really, I like to think for myself, encouraged to encourage to think for ourselves for what might be happening. And I've even remembered from some of our treatment times and stuff where you're. Oh, last month I kind of thought this was going on, but based on the new information I've gathered since then and today, like, I'm gonna change it up. Don't take any of those herbs I gave you last month, Right. And you know what? Yeah. And because that was my, that was me working with integrity and saying, I'm sorry. That's why I appreciate how you work. It's the way it is, honestly, it's an art, you know? Yeah. But I think there's so many be MDs out there that are so amazing and they, I think they, they're limited, but they can be so much better. Mm-hmm. And I think the older ones, the newer ones that kind of get stuck and some of the older ones have broken out on their, they're starting to, you know what? I can, I can think for myself, I see that this isn't worked. I don't know if I mentioned it to you, but I had, uh, Margot Kaner from Banner Health on the other day. She's the president of the northern region, and it's been a few months, and she was talking about how much she appreciated acupuncture in her life. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. And she was like, and some of my doctor friends are not gonna like me mentioning this, but Yeah. And they're, and there is, and that's what we, we need, I'm so happy I got open to F S M and I'm so happy. I, I'm open to epigenetic nutrition, you know, and, and I'm open to the holistic, um, way that, that Dr. Sharon has, has, um, is looking at, at the world and her eastern and western modalities. And you know, this to be open is, I think, what it's all about, right? Mm-hmm. It's just to be open, but not to the detriment, but to be open because it helps someone heal. Yeah. Don't make somebody. Things. I think that's one of the, to actually ha to have to like, while we're still in, in politics, we, like you and I had a lot of conversations about mandatory vaccinations and like obligatory health. Yeah. What does it mean plans to do no harm? Like what does it mean to do harm? Right. And we don't know yet. Yeah. But that's, we came into this conversation with Elon Musk, tweet of Prosecute Fauci, and it's clear by your expression, you have no desire to talk about that at all. But it's been like, one thing I think we share is we don't wanna make anybody do anything. You don't have to do this acupuncture. This is what I think would be helpful to you. Yeah. To have the freedom. And we don't really have the freedom to do as we please yet, because insurance really, it does cover acupuncture, but it covers it. Yeah. Yes. In a way in which I can't really operate. Right. And I wish I could. And that was, that's the other piece. Where do I wanna go? I wanna be able to spread this to as many people as I can, you know? Right. And you, and there are, but even insurance companies, they're like, okay, this is, if you have this, then you're approved for this kind of treatment. And this much of it have have a model, which a lot of people do well, but you, you put the needles in and you walk out. And sometimes that works for sure. And it does, you know, but it, it, that's just not, that's not the way in which I wanna work. And, and with the FSM that's in combination with what I do, I don't think it, it really works Well, that sounds like your opportunity to, to have a monetizable business, frankly, that is beyond just. is leaning on your f sm if people can apply that to themselves, you know, and with your understanding, with your feedback, that allows them to kind of be their own doctor in some sense. Yeah. Right. With your guidance, we'll have a consult and your instruction so that, you know, I can send them and follow ups with a certain number of protocols and then over, you know, they, that's what I'm doing now. Yeah. With some remote patients, so they can, if you insist on having your hands and everybody in that same way, because it sounds like it's just too hard to transmit the depth of what you've learned. Like you can't teach a new trainee to do that or whatever, or, and you have no desire to have like three acupuncture cl patients sitting on tables in various places. I don't know. No, I think it can be, you could do that. I think I could do that with, with, with what I've learned. Yeah. I think I could. I'm not quite sure if I want to, but Yeah. But yeah, I'm quite have, that's what, well, that's, that's, we're talking about the transition from being a practitioner to being a businesswoman, right? Yeah. In a, in a, the owner of the knowledge property that's required to deliver good service to your customers. Yeah. Even when you're not there. Because, because that's what a business is. Yeah. And, and the problem with where I think I've been, I, I made, I did really well in the corporate world, right? Mm-hmm. and so I've been there, but this, I didn't go into this with a desire for it to be highly profitable, you know, I'm, I, my, my dma or my goal is it's a little bit different, so it's like how do I spread that? But I, of course I have to be profitable, but it's not all. It's not all about well, do you wanna help the most people possible? Yeah. So it's got Well, I know then it has to be highly profitable. Yeah. No, no, no. Of course it does because that's the way that you can transmit it to more people like it. It's evidence. Yeah. Yeah. So it's what, it's the values that I put in it. We worked with that a little bit today. We'll work on you. Yeah. It's all good. I love you. Um, we just talked about politics. Uh, would you like to talk about faith or family next? Cuz we always talk about faith, family, and politic. I think we, you know, we're running outta time, aren't we? No, we're not. We in some of the part of the segment that got, uh, deleted, we talked about faith a fair amount and then it like went away. Um, you know, I can talk about, um, uh, you know, I am Jewish. Yeah. And it's been interesting being Jewish here in a, a very Christian, well in Fort Collins, in Collins, Wichita, and Wichita growing up that way. It was cool to me to learn that you were really raised in, I don't know if you'd be Orthodox Jewish. No, absolutely not. Orthodox. Not orthodox, but, but a at least an appreciation for your Yeah. So Heritage. Yes. I went to Hebrew school when I was young. Yeah. And I learned the Hebrew language and how to read and, and um, where did your parents. My mom is from Columbus, Ohio. Okay. And my dad did, he was raised in Utah, so they were But how did they get to America? Well, they, they were born here and their parents were, um, from Romania and Russia. So there were Russian Jews, European Jews that left before World War II and all that craziness though. And immigrated. Yeah. So, cuz cuz the, the history of the Jews is fascinating. Like, I think we even talked about that with how like, ultimately the Greeks let the Jews kind of be the Jews and when the Romans were like, we can't get a handle on these people, we're just gonna send them all over the place. Yeah. The diaspora. Diaspora, yeah. Diaspora. Yep. And so they came from all over a little bit when they came back to Israel Yeah. In the forties and stuff. Yeah. So, anyway, not to digress, but I'm fascinated a little bit by the Jews and just their history and Yeah. And um, I chose to marry someone that was half Jewish. Okay. Uh, yeah, I was, I think, you know, cuz we do seem to stay within our, our, our, our um, our religion when we marry. Yeah. And, uh, and I, I like the diversity of the gene pool, you know, a little bit. So Fair That's, so talk to me about faith in your life. Like what is like from your understanding? Well, you know, growing up Jewish, I really did have faith in God and there's a one God, a Yahweh. Yeah, yeah. The same one we described. Old testament of our Bible. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And I just, you know, I love the fact that, that the Torah is a, is a beautiful classic that's studied right? Mostly by men. It's endured many generations. Yeah. It's endured many gen and there's so many interpretations of it. And there's, there's debate right about it. Mostly men study the Torah, not women. Well in the, you know, the ancients, it was the men, the women were always cooking for them. Well, they got to study in Shabbat fair, the day of rest. The women were not resting, let me tell you. Um, but the men were interesting. I didn't realize that. Oh yeah. There's so many interesting parts that, well I think that's one of the, cuz Christians in particular get criticized sometimes for being like old school and Yeah. Repressive of, but when the, when Christianity came out, they were like super, like women's rights compared to like the cultures around them at the time. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, cuz they've valued their wives and didn't want other men to sleep with their wives and different things like that. And uh, like it was a, cuz look at like Jesus' life, like he had all these ladies falling around that were, they were not respected in Jewish culture. The way that they are respected in today's culture, we'll say. Hmm. But he respected them. You don't think so? I don't really know about that. Yeah. You don't know anything about it? I really don't. Well, we won't talk about it then, So let's talk about like where your journey was, has been. with Judaism. I think I was just super happy that I was brought up in a faith, you know? Yeah. Because I think you can depart from something that you, that you know, but you can't depart from something that you didn't have if you don't know anything. Okay. So you departed from the faith. At least it's departing. It, it's just, I, I, I see value in, in all religions. You can't really, you know, I had to see value in, I don't, I think it's, it's what separates us and it's causes such, such a problem, but I do, I, I think it's beauti, I think religion is beautiful, but I also think we're trying to, to just get to something that's bigger than of tribe teams and kind of like go back to that pH political debate where it's, yeah. If using as a way of separation, then Exactly. Then there's a problem. Right. So, but I love my faith and I love what I learned, and I love that, you know, I love understanding Hebrew and I love the Yeah. That, you know, there's certain symbols like symbolism that, that is, that is dear to me. Like, like high, like 18. The number 18 is, is really special to me because it means life. And some of the prayers, like I, I don't know if this got cut off or not, but, but the, um, there's, yeah, I remember the, one of the most, um, beautiful prayers is Shama Israel au hero. Israel, the Lord our God. The Lord is one. But what it's saying to me, and, and this is after all these studies of Chinese medicine and understanding resonance and free and frequency is saying, you know, hearing or understanding that what we hear in frequency music is what moves us. You know, here hearing Yeah. Is so important to life. Right. And, and it unifies us. That's the oneness of all of us. Right. Well, we are the ocean, you know, we are just the individual waves, um, kind of riding this big as a podcast host. I love that notion because people mostly just listen, right? They hear, yeah. Not that we're gonna, and that's the most important thing. Hear, but but being open to hearing different things than themselves. Yeah. So do you, like, do you believe that there's a, they're a creator still in the world? Like how, what do you think about that? Oh, he's so funny. you get so deep. Oh, so sorry. That was a big question. Yeah, because there's, there's like, oh, there's, there's something bigger. One of my friends calls him self Jewish. Ah, yeah. You know, cuz he doesn't really, really, but it's also hard to shake that tradition and stuff like that. And the Jewish faith seems to. Allow for a very broad Yeah. Diversity of the way that we Yeah. Is there a creator understand God? And as you get older, do you, do you believe that, that the creator lives inside you, maybe. Right. Um, or are we together the creator and, and not by ourselves. Right. Yeah. And whereas the Christian faith, well, that's a goodness of it. Like if you don't believe in Jesus, you're like out of the club. Right. Like, totally. Like, who am I without you, you know? Yes. Well, and that's where I think it comes back to this notion of like the, the soul, the essence of ourselves. And there's some little strand of that, like that flows together and spirals with all of the other things and creatures in the existence. And so we are more than just a walking meat bag. Yeah. And we might not be as subject to like white guy with big beard in the clouds as we imagine, because we are him and you, you're giving me the yes. The yes eyes and stuff. And like you haven't done anything with Jesus yet at all. Like you don't know where he fits. Well, no, but I, I do understand the Christ energy. There's so many, being here has been so beautiful for me because I understand what that feels like for people because of course I hear about it. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. And you know, I, I treat a lot of people in the Mormon community Oh really? And. Yeah. Interesting. I wouldn't have known the Mormons would allow acupuncture and Oh, yeah. With the fence. Yeah. Right. Um, so I get to experience it through these Through them. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's very, it's, it's very similar though, to what other religious people feel, you know? Just, it's, it's just this, it's just a synergy. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's palpable. Do you, um, hope for something like for your children from a faith perspective? Ah, like do they, do you want them to meet a sweet Jewish boy and girl? Respect you have a boy and girl. Yeah, I do. Okay. I want them to be happy and, and No, I have, you don't I plan that much for them. Well, if that would make them happy. You know, my husband he's so sweet. He's like, you know, he didn't care about marrying a Jewish woman. Right. Um, but he says that I felt like home you know, so I want, I want them to feel like home in their relationships. Yeah. All right. And I want them to feel, I just want them to be happy, whatever that is. And, and I, I don't think it's for me to, you know, I, I gave them a Jewish upbringing. They, they went to Hebrew school and Oh, really? And one chose to, um, kind of follow the faith, and one has not. And, um, but I'm, I'm happy they had the base from which to draw from Yeah. Or to, to, to divert from. And you know, I just want them to. I want them to be happy and I want them to be good human beings. Do you think faith is a problematic thing in the world today like this? I think, I think we make it that way. Yeah. I don't think it has to be, it shouldn't be. It should be part of that joyful tapestry, in my opinion, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. If we would let it. Yeah. Well, I think there's that opportunity. I hope there is. I hope so too. Um, let's move on to family. Let's talk about, uh, like what was that, other than that he was half Jewish and you hadn't been meeting that many cute Jewish boys. Like what was it about Samuel that that really drew you to him after what I'm sure were many opportunities to date, smart, cute boys and stuff. Um, you know, we had, we both had, um, I think we came from trauma. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, and I won't go into a lot of detail, but we came from some trauma, both of us, and I think we bonded as two people in this world struggling alone that could, could really help each other. Yeah. You know, and like together we can be a lot stronger than we ever, and we are, we're so much stronger. And we have, I mean, we have, you know, we have started, um, we've had careers and we've started over more than once now together. Yeah. And, you know, it's, and we've gone through a lot together. We are one Yeah. And, and, and, and stronger together and stronger than we would be, than twice of us. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Um, how about, what would he say like, Same. I think so. Yeah. I think so. I think we're proud of each other. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Um, I usually ask for one word description of people's children. Uh, would you like to give your kids names and ages and venture for a one word description of them? Wow. One word. That's tough. One word. That's tough. I know. That's why we do it. Wow. Emily is dynamic. And she is how old? She's 18. 18 now. What's she doing with herself? Uh, she is, she is, uh, she's about to take on the world. Is she in high school now or is she's She's done with high school. She's done with high school. She's good stuff. She's in her gap year. She's kind of, kind of in her gap year trying to figure out where she wants to be, but I think she wants to live in Oregon. Okay. And she's a barista right now. Okay. And she, uh, she is so much more than I was at her age. That's cool. Yeah. She can make anything happen. She's, I've been watching, uh, 1883 all weekend. Are you familiar with that? Oh, yeah. It's the, you've watched it already. So amazing. They all wanted to get to Oregon too. Whoa. You're right. How interesting. Don't show her that show. Oh, she's, she loves those shows. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah. Maybe I'll call her Beth, right? I don't even know. I That came after probably. Yeah, Beth's was, yeah. She, yeah. Anyway, I digress. Um, so, so. So my son, your son Aaron. Is, uh, Aaron aa? Aaron? I guess. Aa? Yeah. Okay. Oh gosh, he's only 16. All right. And, uh, gosh, he's, he's an inspiration. Oh, that's a nice word to use for your son. Yeah, he's, he is so amazing. Like, he just, um, I don't know how he does it, but he just can kind of soar through life and ease and Hmm. And, um, you know, he, he makes it look easy, makes it look really easy. and, uh, you know, I think he can make anyone any, he can get anyone to like him, you know, and I think life is, is, and he's really, really understands the, the depth of things. Mm-hmm. you know, he doesn't just try to, to Yeah. Deal with the surface of it. He like, doesn't understand people that don't wanna understand math, like, like how it works. Yeah. And he's got such depth to, to, he's a brown type in the house. Stuff that you and I have talked about a little bit. Maybe we'll do more sometime maybe, but also, um, yeah. But full of community and connection to people too. Yes. He's a green brown, probably. Yeah, there you go. Maybe most likely. Yeah. Uh, he sounds like he's got some, some good stuff ahead of him. Yeah. Um, do you wanna talk about your parents, your siblings at all? You wanna talk about. Because you're kind of right at that cusp where your kids haven't created other shoots yet, but they're almost ready can something kind of beautiful about my mom actually. Yeah. Let's hear it. So, you know, she was, she lost her daughter when she was young. You said the camera quit working. Well, we'll just capture the, we'll just capture it from that short segment that it caught. Um, so my mom, um, kinda lost her will to, to, to, to do anything after her daughter died. Oh, my. Right. And, uh, you know, years later I realized, and she told me that she didn't listen to music anymore. Okay. Speaking of hearing and inspiration. And she didn't listen to music and she, it just made her cry. She just couldn't hear it. Right. And, um, she's come such a long way. She's 79 years old and she is performing at the Nuggets game. What? Yeah. She's a sizzling senior dancer at the Nuggets game, um, coming up this Tuesday night. Wow. So, I'm just so proud of her. She's, what a cool thing. She's living her best. you know, at the age of 79 after overcoming something so tragic and yeah. Losing her first daughter. Is she still with your dad? He's passed, no, my, my dad's passed. Yeah. I thought I remember. And she's with, uh, um, actually the high school sweetheart that she married That's cool. Many years ago. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like, did music have something to do with her getting her mojo back? I think may, I know, I just know that she's been really happily engaged. I, she moved out here a few years ago and she's found, um, um, you know, she's to been taking dance lessons and, um, just kind of really engaging in life. Yeah. So proud of her. I think that's really neat. Yeah. So I'm gonna bring a bunch of my friends, even a high school friend that knew her from when, what was the name of the group again? It's The Swing. She's a sizzling senior, sizzling seniors. So I'm bringing my friend Angie, who was with me the night, my sister was in her car accident Oh, wow. To go see my mom dance. Oh, wow. So I'm super excited. Well, that's really neat. Yeah. What a, like, I think I just want to take a pause here and just like, like we, we see the news every day and you know, unfortunately there was a mass shooting here or there was a car accident there. Like, we see headlines all the time and every time something like that happens, it has the, the potential to be like a generational impact on multiple people. Right. You know, and I think we, like, we get so. Desensitized to the world. You know, it's almost like it's a big video game sometimes, but when it's actually you, it's a lot different. And, you know, I had that experience with, with Jill's mom's passing, you know, that was even why I started seeing you was ultimately kind of a consequence of that. Like Right. Like her passing was definitely part of the stress ball and the emotion ball that I was digesting, you know, with the rest of 2020 stuff and all that. And like, I just think that's really neat of you to be real in that way and to appreciate that legacy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, not to ignore it, not to shove into the rug because things only grow Yeah. When you shove 'em under the rug. But, but also to recognize the, it's the complexity Yeah. That we have. Yeah. You gotta stay present too, these things. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. Um, faith, family, politics, we've talked about 'em all so far. Yeah. Um, the last is the loco experience. You know what that is? Uh, it's the craziest experience of your whole life that you're willing to share. Whoa. I didn't come prepared for this. I know because you were a late substitution. Um, but it's best if you just share something on the impulse. The, um, I don't know if I wanna share that. Is this it right here? No, just kidding. by the way, do you wanna talk about mushrooms? Let's. So Heidi gave me a birthday gift uh, four months ago. And, uh, it was, it was uh, what do you call it, magic mushrooms with chocolate microdosing. And, uh, I used most of them here and there, little pieces. But, uh, what I found out, we could have her on the podcast this evening in a sub fashion. I was like, Hey, I got two pieces of little chocolates left. And so we took these chocolates and I'm, I'm kind of coming back down. I was pretty juicy of a little while ago too. Um, but like, it's pretty interesting thing, like what became, how did you become open to that? Because Yeah, let's, let's, I'll out there. I can't believe it. I'm sharing groups. Beautiful. This can be your local experience right now. So I told you my kids were kind of extraordinary. Yeah. And uh, they are, they're both so extraordinary in their own ways and I do believe, well, my, uh, yoga teacher told me Your kids are supposed to teach you. You're not really supposed to teach them. And if you really feel into that, it's true. They kind of open you up. And, uh, my daughter went through. Some struggles. Okay. You know, I named her after my sister that passed. I think that kind of handed we're supposed to do that in, in the Jewish religion. Mm-hmm. I think that handed a burden down to her because I hadn't healed. Yeah. Enough. And she struggled quite a bit. We changed her name, her middle name Really? From Carrie to Ray. Oh wow. And I think I was powerful, but she struggled, you know, with, um, just fitting in. She's not, she's not, she's like, what do they say the round? Um, she's a square peg in a round hole or bicycle, whatever, or whatever. And, and because she just is so brilliant, so, so she learned so differently than others. That school was really hard. So, and she's got her free thinking mother's disposition too, probably. Yeah. Yeah. To an extent. But I wasn't as free thinking. I was like, I was that little nerd kind of focused, right. Schoolwork and stuff. And she opened me up and she, I saw she was struggling. She was sad. She was really sad. And she's like, mom, I wanna do DM t I'm like, oh honey, that doesn't sound right. You know, it's like a little research and, um, yeah. so much more to the story I can't share at the moment. Um, but some other people came into my, into my life right at that moment and, and I found out, wow, DMT is Ayahuasca, right? So I said, sweetie, let's go. Let's go to Peru. Let's go do it the way the traditional people did it, if we're gonna do this. And she and I went and we had the most beautiful experience. And she felt love. She felt, um, openness for the first time in her life. And I, I had to deal with my sister's. Wow. And you know, you didn't really share that with me along this way. You were like, this is a journey for my daughter. I thought it was, I thought it was for her, but it really was for me also. Yeah. To heal and to talk about generational healing. I think that really helped. And I was different after this trip. Yeah. I was open, I remember. And yeah, I do It, it just, I was so stuck, you know, stuck in it kind of, it wasn't like a depression, but it was a, a way of being in the world that I could survive. And I didn't realize you could, you could really survive much better. Yeah. And so once I got through that and it like, just took all that pain and anguish out of me, it wasn't easy. Um, but it was amazing. Yeah. And, and part of that process, because ayahuasca gives so much to you, you have to give back. So the, the whole reciprocity of it was, was there Oh. Was, well, we had to go and help abandon dogs and another day we had to help abandon children that had to be fed, that were abandoned because they couldn't, they couldn't survive on their own. And so we did that together and it was the most beautiful experience Wow. Of giving and receiving love. Is it, were you to like, have people judge you potentially for taking your, you know, I did it first daughter to a foreign nation to take drugs together with her mom. Of course, of course. I was terrifying and horrifying. Yeah. You know, and the fact that I'm telling you and the world this right now, it's pretty terrifying. But I'm kind of proud of it too. Yeah, you should, because it was the beginning of. Beautiful. Yeah. And, um, and really needed, and you know, who am I? Who am I to judge? Like, these are ancient cultures doing these things, and we're such a new culture, you know, and these, these traditions have been going on forever. I mean, who are we to judge? Yeah. And you're so beautiful. The guy that ran this, um, retreat in the, um, sacred Valley in Peru actually, um, cured himself of bipolar. Oh, really? Yeah. Fascinating. I'm sorry. Schizophrenia. Oh. Cured himself of schizophrenia. Interesting. And, uh, yeah, so transition me from ayahuasca to chocolate mushrooms. Yeah. So I think it just opened me to all plant medicine. But I also was open because, you know, I, I'm a, um, an herbalist Right. Chinese medicine herbalist, and I understand these, um, you know, we haven't even talked about herbs hardly. I know. It's just so beautiful. Oh my gosh. There's so much more. Herbs are amazing, right? And, and they work as a symphony. And if one has that bad side effect, there's another to mitigate that side effect. And they have just like pharmaceuticals, Exactly. That's what's so submiss except less terrible. Well, and, and that's what's missing in pharmaceuticals. And they take the beauty of some of these chemical constituents of, of these herbs. And sometimes they're copycatting, right? Like they try, they're almost synthesizing. And some of them are beautiful. Some of it works, you know? Yeah. But yeah. So, but you became kind of open to plant-based medicine? Yes. I was a little bit open because of the Chinese herbs, and then this really opened me up and then, um, I just was more open. Yeah. And then I looked at the maps research and the John Hopkins mm-hmm. Research. And then, you know, the, the, the Fantastic Fungi Right. Documentary came out or How to Change Your Mind came out. Yeah, yeah. In research. And so then I started looking at the research too. Well, and it does kind of create a more bendable mind in some ways. Right. And an intuitive mind. Right. Yeah. What's your PG local experience? Heidi? My PG experience uh, I was, I traveled to Europe after college. Okay. And, uh, I was a book nerd, like I said, and I was in a library in Athens, Greece. Okay. And, uh, I was upstairs on the third floor and they decided to close the, the b the bookstore because it was time to close. Okay. And so did you got locked in? I almost got locked in I mean, I, I was banging on the wall banging and finally somebody noticed that I was in there. Yeah. That was pretty crazy. I like it. That is pretty crazy. Um, what's your website? How do people find you if they wanna find you? Uh, www. Why did I just say that? I don't know. So just living wild Chinese medicine. Okay. Dot com. It's living wild chime med.com. Okay. thanks. And I have a special, okay, so holiday special, but Oh, this is gonna be past the holidays. Yeah, it'll be past holidays. Yeah. Screw that. Okay. Next time. All right. All right. I got a piece of bed. Okay, bye. I'll see you later, Thanks everybody for listening.