EXPERIENCE 82 | Seth Silvers on Podcasts

My guest on today's podcast was Seth Silvers, and Seth is the founder and owner of Story on Media and Marketing, and Seth was a guest on episode 12 of my podcast back in February of 2021, and this one should be considered rather than Seth's journey. This is more about what's all about the podcast industry, and Seth has really become an expert in that industry in the last two years or so. We talk a lot about industry analytics best practices, what works if you're a small business that wants to create a podcast that is effective. We talk a lot about the podcast movement conference that Seth returned from recently, where he was honored to interview Mark Cuban as moderator for one of the big keynote sessions, and a lot of the controversy around Ben Shapiro and podcast movements response to his unexpected arrival at the conference. Seth was right at ground level there, and then the last thing we talk a lot about is just storytelling, and where he's looking to take his clients and his business in his journey of helping great storytelling happen. So there's a great episode if you're interested in podcasts as an industry, you will learn a lot, and Seth is a heck of a great guy with a lot of insider knowledge of that industry. So tune in and enjoy. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the local experience podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy, and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits, so pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the local experience podcast. Seth Silvers. Thank you. And so I'm here today with Seth Silvers. This is our first video recorded edition of the local experience podcast, and Seth is the founder and lead strategist at story on media and marketing. And he's also the podfather in a lot of ways here in Fort Collins. He and I did our first podcast. Was that your first podcast as well when we did first the first small business storytellers? Yeah, you're responsible for a lot. Well, you're responsible for a lot. I don't want to pump your head up too much, but yeah, I mean that was, I thought about doing a podcast. I know you and I we kind of talked about for about a year, and then I think it's the first 10 episodes of the small business storytellers where we kind of did it together. And it was a lot of fun doing that. The first like three or four episodes were recorded in my old office in the America building with the loud exhaust fan. Yeah, and then we just never made it to publication. No, they didn't. No, we sat on them for a long time and then decided to redo it. But it was it was fun. It was a fun model. And then I think we did some co interviews and then we did some interviews where I did the interview, but then you and I. You kind of came in at the end of the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we kind of like chit chatted about it and kind of reflected. I was like the expert. Yeah, something. Yeah, it was it was neat to have that perspective. It was a little bit cumbersome. Now I look back and it's like the more moving parts you have to a podcast the harder, you know, it is to do it consistently. Yeah, I think at the end, you know, we kind of both had to simplify it, but it was great. Got me into it. Well, thanks for getting me into it because definitely there wouldn't be a local experience podcast without, you know, our relationship back in those days. And they're really of the small business storytellers. And I remember even back then, I was like, no, I want to do a really long thing. And you're like, dude, we got to do like 30 minutes, 20 minutes max. Yeah. But it's funny because now, so small business storytellers, I think I'm about a hundred episodes. It's been like frequently and frequently. So, you know, I've kind of done some seasons of consistent shows. And then I would pause and, you know, take a couple of months off. And so right now, I'm actually going to be going to a much more longer format starting next year. So I'm not going to publish anything until about January of next year. But I'm wanting to do more of a more of a long form content for that show, just because I think some things have shifted in my desire to shift it to you. You know, I didn't really plan what we're going to do and talk about. I know one thing we're going to talk about in this episode is that you recently got to interview Mark Cuban at a podcast festival of sorts. And I want to hear all about that whole weekend. I was tempted to go down there with you. But maybe we can even just talk about podcasting in general. I mean, you've become a bit of an outsourced specialist for helping people produce podcasts in the time sense. And so I'm assuming that you've learned a lot about just how to produce, how to create, how to promote a podcast. And so can you take me through some of those lessons? And for people out there that are thinking about doing a podcast, like, how hard is it really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's great. And, you know, for context for some of the listeners or viewers. Yeah, I mean, I started story on, man, almost eight years ago. I think maybe seven, I don't know, seven, eight years ago, more than five, less than ten. And that was when we first met. And the vision for what we wanted to do was to help small businesses market and grow with storytelling. I didn't realize how broad that was. It felt really niche for me. Also business model wise, like I had been a part of starting nonprofits, but I'd never started a business. And so it was just, you know, I kind of have gotten my, I'm not a master of business, but I've gotten an MBA. Here's what a margin is. Yeah. So over the last seven years through trial and error. And so over the next like four to five years, I just did a lot. I think I looked back and realized I had said no to maybe like two projects. And that certainly wasn't because every project that came across our table was like the right customer and the right budget. I just, I had this like scarcity, like I have to take every business, every business opportunity that comes. And I'm thankful for that. It's like, you know, I learned a lot and kept on my feet learn what you good at, what you're not good at probably. Yeah. But it was, it was exhausting because we were doing a lot of really neat projects in the storytelling and marketing space. And then we had our own podcast, the small business storytellers. And that was, that was good. That was fun. It was showing that we were, it was showing one that like I did good work because the show was well produced and people liked it. It's also showing that we, you know, we have the ability to create good stuff and tell good stories and also kind of shares like our perspective with people. And so more people started coming to us more and more of our clients started saying like, well, hey, that's great. Can you maybe do a podcast for us? And I don't know. I think the first one in charge like, you know, yeah, for like $50 an episode. I'll do it. You start tiling up your costume. Like it only cost me $120 an episode. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. So then there, there was kind of a transition point about two years ago with a large client that I took on and I didn't have the team to support it. And so I just tried doing everything. And so I pretty much half asked two things instead of whole asking one thing. And so I got like that client let that contract go. They fired me. And so that was really the point where it was like, okay, the thing that I'm the most happy about what we do is the podcasting. That's what's getting the most results. That's what seeming to helping be helping the most people. And so, you know, for the next year, I'm just going to, I'm just going to go all in on focusing on helping small businesses launch and grow podcasts. Yeah. And that was like one of the best business decisions I've ever made of just like having that focus. And it was like immediately people knew who to refer me to. How I like as opposed to like, oh, this is a marketing guy. Yeah. He does everything marketing. Yeah. We know that do everything kind of. Yeah. So that was a really helpful transition. And so the last like two years has just been focused on really building the processes and building the team around. I mean, I want to be one of the best one of the best and most respected like podcast, kind of indie podcast agencies in the country. Yeah. We're not there yet at all. Sure. But that's that's what we want to build to have, you know, some podcasts that you produce and help create right now that you can mention. Or do you do a kind of ghost podcast creation kind of style? Yeah. So a lot of them, my perspective on podcasting is unique and maybe becoming more more popular. Not necessarily because of me, but just because I think I see where the market's going. The most recent number I've heard is that there's over 5 million podcasts. If you Spotify said that last week, maybe like three, like pre-COVID, there was maybe around like two million. Well, so like the industry as far as podcasts has over doubled in the last couple years. I think that it has the consumption and comparison. The consumption is going up not as fast as a pace. The consumption is definitely going up. But yeah, it's interesting. There's some interesting like how people are consuming podcasts depending on how what age they are. Like there's some really interesting data there. But I think that as the market gets more saturated, the solution is to go more niche. To have like more people actually find. Yeah, that they can find you, but that also like we don't, this show doesn't have to have millions and millions of downloads. For it to be impactful, but also effective for you from business decision. So for us, like we talked to our clients, like you don't have to be the next Jordan Harbinger or the next Joe Rogan, where they're making a ton of money off of sponsors because they have millions of downloads. I think that businesses can have podcasts that have even a few hundred downloads per episode. And if they're the right people, totally. And you're giving value to those people, then it makes sense. So we've kind of, I look at podcasting as more of like for a lot of businesses, it's like an educational watering hole, where your audience is coming back each week to be inspired and educated. And they're going to get that information from somebody, so why not get it from you? Yeah, yeah. So as a result, a lot of our shows are, they're not necessarily really well known, but they might be more well known in their industry. Yeah. We are tuned into that audience. Yeah, we are doing some shows. Right now, like two shows that we're onboarding is with a guy named Patrick Linchione, which is pretty famous. Yeah, I think if people are interested in leadership and are over the age of 40, they know who Patrick Linchione is, he wrote five dysfunctions of a team. And so he has two shows that we're going to be taking over production for a while. And so that'll be like the most notable shows that we've worked on. But other than that, it's been mostly like really niche down smaller industries. Well, and it's like, I know like coaches and consultant types. And even local think tank is a good example. The local experience is not necessarily what local think tank does. But if we get a member because they've stumbled across the local experience podcast, you know, that person might pay $249 a month or they might pay $999 a month, you know, for our next level chapter memberships. And so one or two of those occasionally is enough for me to justify creating this podcast. Plus, I'd love to. Yeah, it's fun. And I like when we get new clients, I tell people like if you're looking to make an extra 10 grand in revenue or 20 grand or whatever that number is in the next 30 days, pick up your phone, call everybody you know, and sell them something, right? Like don't start a podcast. But if you're going to be doing what you're doing now in two to three years, like if you see this as a semi long term thing that the business you're doing, and it's important to you to build an audience around your values and to, for your audience to come to you, even if it's slowly, for you to build an audience slowly that trusts you and that there's consistency with, then a podcast is a great tool for that. Yeah. Out of that 5 million podcast I mentioned, there's probably, we'll be generous and say there's 500,000 that have published in the last 30 days. So even in that, like active podcasts, way smaller. Right. And most people are still just starting podcasts and then quit. Oh, that makes me feel a whole lot better because I've been pretty much one so we can accept for as little time like in the summer of 21 for almost two years now. Yeah, and you're definitely in, I mean you're in the, I don't know, there's some websites that give like scores for podcasts and stuff. But that definitely, that alone puts you in kind of another echelon of consistency with podcasts that most, most people just stop doing it. Yeah. Very similar to, you know, what blogging was in the early 2000s and different, like there's always different iterations of things people want to start and then they're not continuing. Fair enough. Well, and I've put serious consideration into hiring story on to produce this podcast. And probably would have, would give more consideration to it now, even in the future or as we expand and grow our audience because I wanted to have these skills in house, you know, and it's nice to be able to outsource some things and things like that. But I don't like being kind of fully dependent on somebody else and then I got to figure out how to do my own damn podcast. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, the ideal scenario is that you can manage in house. Yeah. You have so much more control in some ways that's probably going to be less expensive. And so I think there's definitely a benefit to be able to do it in house. Well, and I'm blessed to have Alma. You know, she has a lot of talents and learns things quickly. And so, and given that her regular job for local think tank is really all of our digital assets and managing those things and that she's become skilled at manipulating the files for the pod. And she's like, we can do video. Well, I'll figure it out. You haven't done it before, but I will. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we've seen that it's a lot easier to launch a show than to grow a show. Like the growth side is something like over the next year that's something that we are wanting to spend a lot more time thinking about. Okay. Because it's hard to grow a podcast. Sure. Yeah. I've noticed. Yeah. You've had conversations. And I think you're, you know, you've seen some great traction too that a lot of people don't see. I think we've seen like the shows that we're producing that are doing the best downloads. Yeah. Why is they are the most focused? So, you know, one of those is a show for Christian men. And it's really focused on like masculinity. And like, what does it look like to what is faith-based masculinity look like and having conversations around that? The show's not for everybody, but it's super, super niche. And then, you know, like, I know, I know in my life, I know who to recommend that show to you. Bullsley about putting women in their place, right? Not gonna answer. I'm just kidding. No comment. But, well, and I will say on behalf of my client that I'm not even mentioning, no, it's not about that. I will put that, of course. Of course. But I know you're a wife. Yeah. So, yeah. And so, it's an example of a show that is really, really niche down. Another show of ours that's doing really well is called Filipino on the rise. And Crystal Febella, she is, you know, multi-generation Filipino immigrant. Okay. And she talks on her show about Philippines, specifically Filipino women. The perception is that you are being successful in America if you are made, or if you are a nurse. Well. And so, her whole vision is we can do so much more than that. Right. Like, we can do higher. Yeah, aim higher. Let's break that glass ceiling. And so, she interviews Filipino women that are doing incredible things. That's awesome. And she has this thriving community. And she's actually, like, fully, like, her lifestyle is fully funded by the podcast, and by, you know, membership side and different things. Yeah. So, I think, like, there, it's really, really focused. And as she, you know, like, interview and, like, Filipino women that have succeeded. Yeah, I mean, she's interviewing, like, Disney executives and, like, people, you know, artists and people that have done really cool things. But also, you know, people that might not be famous, but they've been inspirational in her life. And so, I think, as far, like, if a show isn't growing, it's because people aren't sharing it. I think a lot of people forget that. Like, if your numbers aren't sharing my podcast very often either, you know. Yeah. And even it means other people aren't sharing it. Like, there's probably over, especially over the last couple of years with the role podcasting is played in culture, with self-education and different things. Right. There's definitely been some episodes that I've came across. I've probably sent them to 10 people. Right. Being like, hey, I heard this, I think you'd like this. Or in conversations, oh, you know, you just sparked this idea. I listen to this podcast here. You go, that's a really important part of growing a podcast. Sure. And there, I think a lot of podcasters forget to realize, like, oh, if somebody's not, if our show isn't growing, that means people aren't sharing it. There could be a list of reasons of why that's not happening. Yeah. But, like, that data point of, like, oh, people aren't sharing our show organically. Like, what's going on? And I think a lot of times it's just not, it's not focused. That's what I'm saying. And so that's about the niching. That's why those focus podcasts are really having more traction is because it's so relevant to me in right specific situation. Yeah. And like with, with my show, The Small Business Storytellers, you know, when we started it, it was less common. There wasn't as many podcasts. So, you know, cool. These guys have a business interview show. They're interviewing business owners. Right. That is less, it's less unique. There's days. Yeah. There's only four million, or no, not four million, but four hundred thousand business related podcasts out there probably. Yeah. Exactly. And I've actually, you know, I think the first podcast I've ever listened to was with John Lee Dumas. With an entrepreneur on fire. Oh, yeah. And I've actually gotten to know him over the last couple of years. And I mean, he's a machine. He's produced daily, you know, five day week podcasts for the last like ten years. Almost four thousand episodes. Yeah. And he's got a process down like two a T. Right. That was so unique ten years ago, even five years ago it was. And he was really the first to the market. A lot of people have kind of replicated that in some ways, not to the same level of quality. Yeah. But I think for me, I begin to realize, you know, I'm getting reached out to a lot for people that want to be on my show. Because as the podcast industry is going grown, you know, the guest booking agency in the PR. So I just grew up in five contacts a week. Yeah. You know, it's like a investment banker or whatever in New York City sometimes. Yeah. Well, if he's going to Colorado, look me up. But otherwise. Yeah, they evident. They obviously like haven't looked and seen what it shows about. Right. And so I've let some people like that be on my show because it might isn't geographically driven. But I kind of looked back recently and realized, man, my show. I've done a lot of amazing interviews, but it's been a lot of like 25 minute interviews with business owners. Where it kind of just ends up being a pitchfest. Like, you know, you kind of get to know him. You kind of have the same interview where you're like, it's no your story. Tell me about your business. What's unique? What's your ask? What's your offer? And I'm realizing with the stage that I'm at in business, what I'm interested in. Like, I'm very aware of what I don't know on my business journey for like where I want to go in the next 10 years for business. And I want to get answers to those questions. So for me, like, I'm a lot more interested in sitting down with somebody for an hour and a half and learning about how they've taken advantage of tax strategies or how their pricing models have evolved as a business owner. So I'm more recognizing now like, I'm on, I'm, I want my podcast to reflect the business journey that I'm on. And so I'm exploring what it, what does that look like? Yeah. Because I don't just want to have a podcast to have a podcast sake. And I think that's a plenty of busy helping other people create amazing podcasts. Yeah. And I think with your background in storytelling and all the studying that you've done about what makes an effective story and what helps people want to share things like that. Like you can really add a lot of value to help because some smoke like me, I could just do a podcast and have, you know, without really maybe a clear direction of what the intention of that podcast is and how to really try to create listenership and things like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And I think, you know, I mean, kind of going down the thread again of growth. Like I think that your show has to be, I mean, there's got to be something unique about it. It's got to be focused. And even when I made the business decision to focus on podcasting, because that was focused, people now knew how to refer me, people knew who to connect me with. Again, do people know how to share who to share your podcast with and who it's for. And the other thing is I do think that as the market gets more mature advertising is going to become more important. You're going to have to. Yeah. And there's more tools now that are coming out to where it's like, it's almost like early Facebook ads days. I kind of think about it where before Facebook ads, you know, you had to spend ridiculous amounts of money on an advertising campaign. Right. Because, you know, you had to hire an agency to design the billboards or design the flyers. And then somebody to distribute a hundred thousand coupons. And then you have to wait a couple weeks. See, do they come in? And then you're like, okay, did that work? Yeah. So it's a huge time investment. Then Facebook ads came out and it's like, okay, well, I want to spend $50, reaching business owners in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Right. And, you know, does it work? I think similarly now there's platforms that are coming out that give the ability or even if you want to advertise your show on other podcasts, which is one of the best ways to do it. You could do that with, you know, you're only spending like $100 a month. Right. You could be getting, you know, an ad in front of 5,000 podcasts. Wow. So that technology hasn't really been in place until just recently. And so I think that some tools like that are going to be really. Yeah, we should talk more about that actually. I think that seems like a prudent way for me to promote, you know, look for podcast listeners. Right. Like try to create podcast listeners out of magazine readers. Yeah. And a lot of people, a lot of podcasters are really nervous to, like, promote other shows on their show. Like it seems kind of productive to promote another podcast on my podcast. Yeah. I was like, well, then, am I getting rid of my listeners? Yeah, yeah. And if your show sucks, then yes, you are. I'm like, I did have somebody. So I was on the Fort Collins Fellows. You know, Patrick and Chris, Patrick Sukup. Yeah. And so I was one of their, I think I was a third or fourth guest or something like that. And somebody that had just moved to town heard my, heard about me and local thing tank on their show and started listening to the local experience. And Patrick, you did kind of say, you know, I like the local experience better. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, no, and it's funny. But there's a lot of data that does show that that's actually one of the best ways to grow podcast. Because you're reaching listeners and the reality is if there's people in your audience that another show would actually solve, would actually help them out more. Right. Like that's better for them. And similarly, there's probably some of your listeners on other shows that are passively listening to a show that would actively be listening to yours. Jordan Harbanger is one of the top podcasters in the industry. He spends absurd amounts of money every month advertising his show. Totally. And he doesn't even need to, honestly. Like he already has millions of downloads a month. He's making a lot of money. Obviously he feels like it's a smart investment though. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that is like, that's really important to see. For me, who's at the top of the game, this is something that they still prioritize. Thanks for recommending him to me. He's been, uh, become kind of on my regular rotation. Yeah. He's a little dorky sometimes, but, uh, and like he, he's pretend to humble. Yeah. He's interesting. I mean, and that's when you're really, it's always interesting when people like, when you know you're good at something. You know, how do you float that line between the go and confidence? But he's at, like he was at the podcast conference. I was just at. Yeah. And he's, he usually is. He was there last year and he's there interacting with people and going to say, and I think that that also speaks highly of him and the industry is like. There's a lot of like top dogs in the industry that are still very involved with the community. Yeah. They're not like, oh, I don't need like, they're still very involved with like the podcast community and learning and interacting with others. And I think that's respectful. It's always fun to like see people who don't need to be there. Right. But they understand the value of like being there and connecting with us. Speaking of people that don't need to be there, uh, how about the Ben Shapiro thing? That was interesting. So let's set the stage a little bit better for, for folks. So this podcast conference, uh, was back in mid August, mid, mid late August. Yeah. It's called podcast movement. Okay. It's the largest, largest gathering of podcasters in the industry. Okay. Usually about three to four thousand people that come. Wow. And pretty much everybody's a podcaster. Maybe there's a few wannabes, but for the most part, they're all already actively. Yeah. Everybody's either like a podcaster or, um, or industry. Right. So like this conference is probably 70% podcaster, 30% industry. Layland, that's people that sell like podcasting software or better. Yeah, services or agencies or ad buyers or producers or different things. I kind of float in the middle of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I got to, I spent a lot of time like meeting with, um, you know, potential ad buyers or podcast networks that are looking for podcasts to sign on or different things like that. And it's a good place to meet people like that. And I'm imagining it as a little bit like a startup week kind of thing is for small business owners around here. It's kind of like that. There's different speakers and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's usually, usually one keynote in the morning that, you know, session that everybody's in. And then there's, you know, probably 50 or 60 breakouts during the day. Yeah. And there's kind of usually different tracks from like beginner podcaster all the way out to like professional or industry side. And then in the evenings, um, at these events, all of the like big podcasting companies that are trying to woo us over to their platforms. Right. Are just throwing massive parties for everybody. Okay. And who is that? That's like, I heart radio. Okay. You know, Spotify slash Wondry, Spotify bought Wondry, um, which Wondry was a private podcasting production studio in LA and Spotify bought them for like $350 million. Whoa. A couple of years ago, um, Wondry has like a lot of the top top shows. Okay. And I actually got to meet some of their, some of their like show, some of their show rider. I got to meet up a bunch of people at work for Wondry this, this last conference. That was really interesting because I got to meet this awesome guy who's a business rider in the UK. And he's one of the riders for one of my favorite podcasts called Business Wars. Okay. Um, so it's cool because it's like, oh, I've listened to the show and you're like the guy who's riding behind the host. But I mean, these are shows that have like 10, 15 staff members for one show. Right. And so like, you know, for them, like if a show is doing half a million downloads a month. Right. It's probably not economically viable. Right. Like they probably like they probably need to be doing way more than that to like fund it. But there's, I mean, the quality of the shows is just on a whole nother level. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a two day conference, three day conference. It's more four day conference. Yeah. Almost a week. And it's done in Austin. It was Dallas. Yeah. Next year, it's actually in Denver. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's always I started going when I made the shift to podcasting. I was like, okay, I'm going to go to some of these industry events. Yeah. So I've probably been to four podcasting conferences in the last year. Oh, wow. You're in a half or so. Okay. Um, just building relationships, skill working, and learning, building skills. And it's been really, really valuable to get, get into that community. Well, that's a good commercial. Is there another podcasting conference coming up then that I should be? Uh, so there's one, there's one in January. And the kind of two organizations are like podcast movement. And then there's pod fest. Okay. Podcast movements. A little more like a little more produced, a little more industry focused. Yeah. Or probably has more resources for industry. Pod fest. That one's in January in Orlando. That one, the percentage of podcasters over industry is a lot higher. And I've heard a lot of people say it's like almost like summer camp for podcasters. Right. So it's just that one is that one summer camp. Spring break. I'm imagining. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of that. They feel, they feel different. But that one, I'll be at that one and that one is great. Um, and it's a little more connecting with other podcasters and learning what they're doing. And what you're not doing and stuff. Very cool. So, um, you had, um, well, before we, before we roll, let's talk about the Ben Shapiro thing at the podcast movement. I figured I had a lot of people have a hundred percent suspicion. I did actually pre-plan it. But when I forget you were like everybody's welcome kind of thing in all these big podcasters. So Ben Shapiro, a host of a very popular conservative podcast rolls into the podcast movement to basically drop by their booth. But he hadn't didn't have a ticket and he wasn't expected or something like that. Yeah. So, yeah, long story short, the Daily Wire, which is Ben Shapiro's company. There are six largest podcasting network in the world. Ben Shapiro's show is the largest political podcast in the world. Yeah. Um, I think he does 35 million downloads a month. Just like, he's like slightly more than loco. He's so hardworking. So, like, that guy is always producing new content every day. Yeah. And it is his job, literally. Um, but he is so Daily Wire sponsored podcast movement. Okay. I thought that was interesting. Um, podcasting is an industry generally. Uh, when you look at the stats, podcasting is an industry generally leans, um, more left. Yeah. And there's actually a study that came out three to four months ago that it was the first ever study on podcasters. And it actually said that the representation of conservative podcasters, people creating the shows is 18%. Whoa. So, and I mean, there's a lot of like moderates, but I think, I think Democrats, I think it was like, I don't know, like 56 or something. 100% libertarians like me. Probably in the middle. I probably, probably about 25 or something. I don't know. But so it was really interesting because over the last couple of months, I've actually heard very liberal podcasters that I know saying. I'm liberal, but this is actually a problem. Like we need, we need to, yeah, it's like not healthy for the other. It's not healthy for the industry. Yeah, just that balance. It's only have 18% even though I don't believe anything that those people are saying. Yeah. We need more of them. And I was like, wow, that takes a lot of balls for people to say on the other side. So I thought it was interesting that daily wire was sponsoring this conference. They paid like 30 grand for a booth. But I also thought it was appropriate. It's like if this is a podcast industry event, you know, Disney needs to be there. Spotify needs to be there. Daily wire needs to be there. Like these big networks need to be there. If we're wanting it to be kind of like well represented. And so I think on the second night of the conference, I saw two of my friends who run the conference. They're kind of the two top dogs. And I just said, hey, I'm sure everybody doesn't agree. But I'm glad that daily wires here. I think, you know, they weren't speaking. They were just sponsoring. Yeah. But I was like, I think I think for representation, I think it's important. And I said, I don't even agree with everything daily wire does or says. Sure. But I think it's good that they're agree with anything that anybody does. Yeah. And so they said, wow, thank you. That means a lot we've been getting some pushback. We really appreciate it. So then the next morning they send out this tweet from podcast movement. It's like the tweet gun around the world. And there's this like five tweet thread where they're initially apologized because there was some individuals there that expressed publicly on the social media's that they felt. They felt pretty uncomfortable and felt like they were experienced that they were in harm's way because daily wire was threatened. They were threatened. Yeah. And so daily wire was, I thought it was really focused. Yeah. Yeah. So daily wire was there. And then Ben showed up. Sorry. Sorry. That's the big piece of the story. That's the evil little Jew. Yeah. Well, you can't say things like that. But he would say that. Yeah. That's true. So Ben Spiro was in town for another conference or like another event. And he just, he dropped in for about 10 minutes, came to the booth, shook hands, took pictures with some people. People were really excited that he was there and then he left and that is it. So then somebody posted a picture online and said, how is this possible? I feel unsafe with this person in the room with me. They were by about 300 feet away. And so then the next morning, you know, podcast movement comes out and apologizes and says, you know, we were wrong. We never should have taken the money. This is unacceptable. Kind of like a future we'll think about who we associate. Yeah. Kind of like it was very, it was a very typical cancel culture response. So that blows up. Right. And like this is actually the morning before I'm supposed to get on the keynote stage. Oh gosh. So I wake up and I'm like, oh goodness, I have to like, and I kind of just compartmentalized. I was like, I'm one. Did you address it at all from that stage? No. Yeah. No. That wasn't, it wasn't the right, it wasn't my place. Yeah. Has that has podcast movement come out and said anything to follow up with that? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So the interesting thing was they got a lot of blowback from people on every side. Yeah. Like very few people agreed with their apology. Most people that I talked to and that I saw and that I saw interacting with this. Very much thought that it was an overreaction that what they did. So I responded later that day. I just responded kind of said. Because I know them and I have some level of influence in that community. And so I felt like I also wanted the leaders to know like, I think it's important for them to know, okay, if some leaders in our space are willing to, you know, point out a different direction, then that's probably important. And so I pretty much just said, you know, I've always really appreciated how inclusive podcast movement has been because that's really one of their values and they've done a great job. But I kind of just mentioned like, I feel like not letting somebody be here because they believe something different seems like the least inclusive thing I've seen you do. So then there's this whole thing where like that response went, I've never had anything go viral. That response went completely viral. Oh, it did. That tweet was seen by like over half a million people. Oh shit. I was quoted in Newsweek. I was quoted in the Dallas Morning News. Of course, without my consent. And I've, you know, got a bunch of tweeted. You pretty much can quote it, right? Yeah. I don't know. I didn't really care. I just thought it was funny. Yeah. You know, I was getting, I was getting much more support messages than like hate messages. But I was even getting hate messages. Right. For people that were pushing on you, for pushing back against the way that responded. So it was just this big piece. It was just really dramatic. And so I didn't realize you were at near the epicenter of this thing. I was just late. Yeah, I was weird. I was just listening to Ben Shapiro on his podcast that describing the scene. Yeah. And the fear that people rightfully had when it, when a small Jewish man came into the room. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was really interesting. There is, I don't want that situation to overshadow the event. Long story short. They, a couple days later in the river moving the tweets and then kind of saying, hey, we're, like, we're working on it. Like, we're trying to figure out what the appropriate response is. And then about five or six days ago, they actually apologized publicly to Ben Shapiro. Oh, wow. And very much took it back and said, you know, we owe an apology to Ben Shapiro, which you do. They're a sponsor. Yeah. You can't just accept somebody's money and then, you know, crap on them publicly like that. So they initially said, like, you know, we're, we're really like working on it. We're trying to figure out how we can have events where everybody feels respected and voices can be heard. So I think they're making the right moves. And Ben Shapiro actually responded to it initially said, like, this is very rare for companies in America to cancel somebody. And then actually, like, say, like, hey, we are wrong. Yeah. So of course, they've gotten pushed back because of their apology. And so now, I think at some point in the last two weeks, podcast movement has pissed everybody off on that. I think, yeah, I still fully support. And you know, I've been interacting with the owners of podcast movement. And people make mistakes. They do. And I still, I know a lot of people are like, I'm never going again. It's like, that's fine. That's your loss. Yeah. Like, you're going to miss out. So tell me about the Mark Cuban interview and set the stage for that thing. If you're done talking about. Yeah. No, I'm happy. And yeah, I do. Ben Shapiro thing. It was, it was eventful. It was sad to see political things overshadow. It's sad to see things like that overshadow the value of something that's happening. And so I think that was a bummer part about the conference was I think a lot of people the last two days, they were just like looking at all this drama. But so one of the key notes was with Mark Cuban. And one of his, one of his co-founders for platform content creation platform called Fireside. Her name is Fallon Fadamy. Okay. I've gotten to know Fallon over the last year and a half or so. Okay. And so she reached out to me about three or four weeks ago, maybe two weeks before the event and said, Hey, I think you're going to be there. Do you want to moderate our keynote presentation, initially interview Mark Cuban and I was like, let me think. Yes. Yeah. I had met him briefly with Fallon last year. They spoke last year at podcast movement. Now it's kind of the public unveiling of their platform Fireside. Okay. I've been an early creator on Fireside. It's a live content creation platform that's mobile first and kind of. It's in similar ways to like what, you know, platforms like Clubhouse was like social audio, this, that whole space. Except for you can stream video and they're really helping content creators. So if we wanted to go to like a live stream. Yeah. And podcast follow up. Yeah. We might use Fireside here. Yeah. Fireside could be great and people that are listening can actually like jump on stage, the virtual stage and ask you questions and different things. So they want to meet and interview them. And also highlight the product and highlight, you know, why Fireside is really, really unique for content creators. And so it was really neat. We had about a 45 minute interview. And then we are also streaming it through my Fireside account onto, you know, YouTube and Facebook and Twitch and LinkedIn. Cool. And there was also about a hundred. I think there's one or two hundred people that were listening live on the Fireside platform. And so we actually brought two of those people up on stage, up onto like the Fireside stage. Okay. And so I initially knew that these people were there. And so I said, hey, we have a question from Fireside and the tech team initially like switch the audio. And my friend Juliette from, you know, the Northeast was now virtually in this keynote with 2000 people and asked her question to Mark. And so then we alternated to an in-person question video of her too, like on her Zoom or something. We didn't do the video, but it could have been. Yeah. And so it was really unique because with this interview, you know, we had my questions that I was guiding them through. We had in-person questions at the event. And then we also were bringing in questions from online that those people were actually asking themselves. So it was really fun to like show how kind of this like merge of bringing like digital audiences. And in-person audiences. Yeah. Yeah. And that was really fun. So a few of us from the local next level chapter that I'm a member of actually investigated bringing Jordan Peterson to Northern Colorado. And we haven't given up, but it's harder than it might have hoped for being. But if we did something like that, you know, like at a Lincoln Center and it wouldn't have to be Jordan Peterson. But if you could get a really high-end speaker, you could live stream that too. Yeah. With that. Yeah. And like live forever. Yeah. Live streaming has been around for a while. I think it's like really making podcasts and have Q&A for people not there. Yeah, exactly. I think it's like making the content creation process more interactive. So it was fun. I mean, I was definitely, I was more nervous about the tech side than like the time with Mark Cuban. Right. But everything went pretty well. So it was great. I was really grateful for the opportunity. And there was fun to think about and prepare for. And I actually got to spend about probably about 30 minutes with him before. Oh, cool. There was like tech problems that people were running around fixing. And so I like left Mark Cuban and I in the green room together for like 30 minutes to just sit there and chat. And how is Mark Cuban? Mono and Mono. He's great. I have a lot of respect for him. The first time I met him last summer was there's like this private dinner at this podcast movement event last year. Okay. And it started out as like we're going to have this small dinner and then it turned into this like kind of like who's who? And you know, they invited a bunch of like fancy people to come to this dinner. And they just dressed like real real nice is a nice place. And the person who has dressed the least nice was the one whose net worth is obviously bigger than everybody in the room combined. Multiply by 10. So yeah, it was funny like Mark Cuban walks in and, you know, under armor, under armor shirt and jeans. Right. And he can. I think that's fine. But yeah, I think he's he's like pretty chill. I think like I've got like he's very like very personable but also really focused. Like I've heard that he almost doesn't take he very rarely takes meetings. Because it's more efficient for him to just like respond and text and email all of his different business owners. And so he'll go through hundreds and hundreds of emails in a day that he's personally responding to. So he's like very laser focused. But he also with that like, you know, he was working on his phone and then I started talking to him and like had no problem like putting his phone away and like he was really present in that. And so I think it's I think that is. I've been really happy with the interactions that I've had with him. And he's obviously he's really sharp and. Yeah. I just shared with you right before we started this show that the local experience today was going to be each of us eating two peaches while we're doing this show. And so I'm going to start mine now. Sounds good. My first one. I wanted to ask you mentioned YouTube and it sparked a thought I was listening. Do you listen to Dark Horse podcast ever? No. I've heard of it, but I haven't listened to it. They're pretty cool. I like them. They were demonetized by YouTube for, you know, spreading COVID disinformation misinformation during the pandemic. And they're still demonetized by YouTube and have been doing some other live streaming. I think they're at episode 140. They were the professors that evergreen college thing that were being like hunted with bats and stuff because they. Anyway, so they've been interesting around for a while, but YouTube is now having ads in the Dark Horse podcast on YouTube, even though it's demonetized. So that's kind of shenanigan like. Yeah, that's interesting. So the Dark Horse podcast is not on YouTube anymore. No, it's on YouTube, but it's been demonetized. Okay. Those creators can't. They don't get the money from the ads. But yeah, YouTube has in the last few weeks started placing ads again because apparently content is okay to people that want to have ads, but. That's not, unfortunately, that's not surprising. Yeah. It's not new news. YouTube and Google do what they want to do. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is interesting and not that surprising, but it's something like that's really interesting. And I think even it does just like even with the. I don't really want to go back into all the Ben Shapiro stuff, but I think like. It's just it's complicated conversations when you start when you do start like integrating like. Okay, like YouTube is a private platform. Technically, you know, Spotify is obviously gotten a lot of press with Joe Rogan and you know employees going on strike and different things like that. Right. And that's where like podcasting podcasting. I mean, it really is kind of like a free speech platform. Sure. Because like the way podcasting works is like this episode is uploaded to an RSS feed. Like this episode is not uploaded to Spotify. It's uploaded to an RSS feed. And then Spotify and Apple podcast and Stitcher and overcast all those things. They're initially tapping into the RSS feed. So anytime the RSS feed is updated, then it shoots all these distributors. So theoretically, any of those individual distributors based on their policies as private companies. Yeah. Most of them private companies could decide we want the content on our platform. Yeah. And I personally think they have the right to do that. Do I think it's good? No. But do I think that I as a private business owner have the right to do things the way that I do? I do. And I know that you're libertarian, so you believe that as well. Sure. And so in that sense, it's like, yeah, it's annoying. But I kind of get it when like, you know, if YouTube makes this decision, it's stupid. But well, they shouldn't be able to sell ads when they're demonetizing something. Yeah. That's where you can't have it both ways. That's kind of like, you know, murdering a pregnant woman is double murder. But abortion up until delivery was fine. Yeah, definitely. You can't have it both ways. Yeah, definitely is a double standard there for sure. So I was thinking about Alex Baronson and Twitter while you were talking about that. Have you, do you know that story? I don't. Oh, yeah. You need to listen to Alex Baronson on Joe Rogan. He's been reinstated by Twitter. Oh, I just heard him talking about this. Yeah. And he was, you know, also canceled for disinformation and stuff because he was saying the vaccines didn't stop the spread. Yeah. You could still get infected and you could still transmit it and then they knocked him off. And then they didn't let him back until just now, even though that has become obvious in the time since. Right. And but he's said on Joe's podcast that he's suing the Biden White House because he's got evidence that they basically instructed Twitter. They basically said, hey, why is Alex Baronson still having account with you guys? Huh. After Twitter senior staff, it said, you know, we appreciate free speech here and your content. We've looked at it and it's fine. And then once Biden called him out or the Biden White House called him out, then they were like, oh, you just had your first strike. Oh, second strike. Third strike. Oh, you're out. Yeah. And so anyway, he won reinstatement from them and discovery. And so he gets to oppose Twitter executives and do discovery of evidence and emails and things. So it's going to be an interesting. The world hasn't gotten any less complicated at Twitter. Yeah. And it's interesting with stuff like that because they're at some point like these conversations get so subjective. Right. Like if I owned a media platform, would I be okay with content being on that platform that, you know, won't use an example that was directly inciting violence? Sure. Of course not. No, I would not. Right. The problem is, what kind of content directly incites violence? Like that kind of becomes, it's like, where's the, where's that line being drawn? That's where you have these lines that have been moving, where you have somebody that, you know, 12 months ago, they were kicked off a platform for missing what was like misinformation. But then now that information is not classified as misinformation. I know in all the Spotify stuff was happening with Joe Rogan. And, you know, you had like Neil Young who said, well, I'm not going to be on Spotify for a few days. And Joe Rogan kind of responded and he put out this video and he pretty much has said like, you know, what is misinformation today might not be in a year. It might be, but just kind of saying like it's a little bit of a moving target, especially with some of these things that are like COVID, where like the information is changing so quickly and we're learning so quickly. And so that's the hard thing is when the target for these platforms are moving. Yeah. And why I think podcasting is actually still great in it because you can, you can kind of subscribe to a user. Yeah. And you don't necessarily need the platforms to engage with that user. And that's why I think we've seen some people that have maybe gotten kicked off platforms where they've, you know, found a lot of love in the podcasting space. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you brought up Rogan and Spotify and that's candle. And talking about people sharing things, you know, his subscribers went up two million during that like six week period when he was being canceled. You know, and so they didn't work very good. And I don't know if that's because he's Joe Rogan, you know, or whatever and the uncancellable, right, or is that because it was a reason to share. Right. And I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think oftentimes cancel culture backfires. Yeah. It seems like, you know, it kind of goes back to that line of all publicity is good publicity. Yeah. And I do think the comment like I actually, you know, with the podcast movement situation, I like. Actually, I think it's super important. One that like we need to be able to be in the same room with people that believe very different things in us. And I think that's like a basic. Well, it's not a basic human skill, but I'd like it to be. I think it's important for us to develop that skill and be comfortable with that. Yeah. I also think we need to be willing to learn from people that like actually like learn to empathize with people that are very different than us. So like these and the there's two individuals that this situation kind of like stemmed from where they express their opinion that they felt unsafe. And since then they actually wrote these very lengthy articles describing like their experience with podcast movement over the last couple of years, these individuals are trans. And so they they've actually worked with podcast movement to try and make a more inclusive culture and different things. And then they kind of responded to this controversy as well and said why they didn't feel safe. Yeah. And they actually and honestly was it was absolutely disgusting. How much like hate is how much like hate and abusive. So I don't let that either. I know. And so I actually reached out to them and I said, Hey, I know. I know we're probably on the different different sides politically. No. I said I read your article. It did like challenge my way of thinking a little bit. And I also just said, you know, I apologize because I think it's disgusting. The like hate that you got. And it's even more disgusting that the hate that you got is coming from people that chances are probably a line with more political ideologies on my side than on your side. So it's like. And then actually I wasn't really even expecting a response. I just wanted them to know like I appreciate that you put your opinion out there. And I, you know, consumed your experience, your opinion. And that was that was valuable for me. Like it was time well spent. And they actually both they just said, wow, like, thank you. Like it was very different than what we've the response is getting. And that's the sad thing is like I think I think in situations like that and even, you know, in cancel culture, like we just need to. I don't know how all the time, but I think it's like really important for us to try to understand what other people are going through, even if we think it's wrong. Yeah, I don't know. It's a hard balance. So how long do we have again? I can't remember when your deadline is this morning. I have to go. I have to be out of here in like 30, 40 minutes, 30, 40 minutes. Like 10, 15, 10, 20. I'm kind of was imagining to myself like, and I didn't realize kind of the extent to which you're kind of an industry insider at this point really. You know, there's probably what's happened that way. It's been surprising. I feel really grateful. I think I can last 18 months of just being like, I want to get plugged into this community and, you know, fully commit to going to this community. It's been, yeah, I don't know what words to call it, but I feel like there's been some, there's been some favor. It's a real momentum. So if things worked out just like you hope they do over the next, say, three years, what would that mean for you as a podcaster, as a producer of podcasts, as a business owner entrepreneur? This episode is sponsored by LOGO Think Tank. LOGO Think Tank provides pure collaboration for business owners. We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey, and we love what we do and who we do it with. Our model features give back minded business veterans and the role of LOGO facilitators. We're always looking for abundance minded individuals to add to our membership, facilitator team, LOGO community, or to feature on this podcast. Listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of LOGO Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free. Just mention the LOGO Experience Podcast on your application. To learn more, visit our website at LOGOthinktank.com. That's LOCOthinktank.com. Yeah, that's a good question. A few things I would, I want to be managing production-wise like I want our team to be producing over 100 shows. Okay. For clients, right now we're at about 20. So, you know, that's substantial growth. I'm sure it's way harder to get from zero to 20 than it is to get from 20 to 100. I hope you're right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think we've been building our processes from scratch, and so I feel like we've been building our team and our processes so that we're not going to have to re-write everything. We're not going to re-write the book every 20 times or something. It's processed now. So, yeah, I think in some ways like adding new clients on now is much easier than adding new clients on a year ago. I would have to think so. Mostly because a year ago, I just did everything. Well, and you didn't have credibility to speak of. Right. And now there's even in the last, because of that explosion in podcasts, I have to think that the number of agencies, if you will, that do your kind of work helping people create podcast content and make it work. It's growing. Yeah, there's more of them. A lot of people, I mean, people don't really like editing podcasts. Right. So that's what we do. Yeah, so I mean, it's also there's just, there's a space where a lot of people get into production and then leave. Because they realize they want to do other things, and that's totally fine. For me, that looks like an opportunity. I think there's an opportunity to keep doing this and doing it hopefully really well. So on the production side, we definitely want to scale that and do really, really well with being able to launch and manage and grow shows. It's also really important for me to, and I kind of realized this actually talking with mutual friend of ours, Jennifer Lewis, who I just ran into like an hour ago to coffee shop. But a couple of months ago, we were talking like kind of like really thinking about like I've had, I've had Claire, you know, maybe where I want to be like five to 10 years from now. But then how do we reverse engineer that to like, are we putting things in emotion now to do that? Yeah. So for me, like down the road, it's always been important for me, like I want a story on to have some original content and original shows that are financially successful that are doing really well that are bigger shows. Sure. So I was challenged from talking with Jennifer because it was like, okay, well, what are we doing now to see that happen? Right. Like I can't just want to, you know, five years from now have some shows. Right. But then that means we have to launch some shows. Right. So I think over the next couple of years, probably two to three shows a year that like will be like story on original podcasts and original shows that I'll be launching. More intentional than just small business storytellers, I guess. I think it could be. Yeah. Yes, small business storytellers definitely could be it. And I do, I'm putting a lot of thought into like what this next iteration of it of it is. I think I will probably rebrand it. Yeah. So I think it'll probably be somewhat of a new show. Yeah. Or new skin on an old show or something. Yeah. So that's something that over the next year or two were working on some ideas and also working on having like the margin and the capital to be able to say like, hey, it makes sense business wise. And thought leadership wise in the industry, like we, we should be putting our own stories, not just telling our clients. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's challenging, but also exciting for me is to think about us having the opportunity to be able to tell some of our stories. And I think the business side is it's not an end to a means like I care about the business. But I also think like the agency side, I want to scale that so that we can tell stories that I feel passionate about. And so that we can give in ways that I feel passionate about. So in that sense, I want to scale the agency so that we have the resources to be able to get stories out there. Yes, that are our clients, but also that that I want to get out there. Yeah. Maybe that looks like us launching an original show. Maybe that looks like me meeting, you know, Kurt from three years ago, who has a great show concept and us saying like, you know what? We think this is really important. Here's 20 grand to get this show off the ground. And I like the idea of being able to have the capital and the agency to be able to like help stories get out there and help show us get off the ground. So that's kind of where my mind's at from the next couple of years. And you think that the podcast industry will continue to grow. Maybe the pace of new podcast creation is going to slow because it's hard. You know, to make it work financially and people just get bored and tired and. Yeah, I don't have houses anymore. I definitely am not worried about it. So another interesting stat that I heard recently from the head of podcasting at YouTube. I think it was 50 million active YouTube channels that are creating content. So 50 million channels that in the last 30 to 40 days have added new content. And we said before about 500,000 active podcasts. Right. So that's 100 to one. Right. So in that sense, you look at it like 10 years ago, there was a handful, like literally eight, like five or less channels on YouTube that had over a million subscribers. Well, now there's something like 20,000. Wow. So you see, like I think people for the last decade have been saying, like, oh, YouTube's at its peak, like how much bigger, like how many more creators can there be. I just think that the industry is going to continue to grow. I think podcasting is a great place for people to be able to build an audience. Yeah. I think we need to get more creative with the monetizing. Right. Figuring out like, how do you actually support your podcasts? And I think there's innovation in that. Right. And the membership to sell or right executive coaching is Elizabeth's show live. Is that public? Can we talk about that? Because I was really honored by that. Yeah. Yeah. So we're one of the shows that we're we can definitely talk about it. I don't it's not live yet. I think it'll be live and I think launch days in like three weeks. Okay. Whatever today is, I think early September 13th. There's something. But yeah, that show will be called the business transition roadmap. Okay. And I mean, you know this. And some of your listeners that have listened to the episode where she was on here know this. But she for the last like 20 or 30 years, Elizabeth has been helping business owners transition. Most often from like maybe like multi-gener, like a business owner to the next generation. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of times it's not as much like a business owner selling and exiting as much as it is. Like a business like staying private and making that transition. And maybe it's not to family, but it's to a leadership team that buys them out. Whatever. How's that work? Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, it was a great podcast. Yeah. Her knowledge is wow. Elizabeth Ladoo, we should mention as well. Yeah. And her their website is the transition strategist.com. Yeah. Strategists, I think. Yeah. I don't know. I think it is. Yeah. Strategists. So they, I mean, they'll work with you for several months to build a transition plan that is often two to ten years long. Yeah. So they're working with their clients over the long haul to like effectively make this transition. And so we're launching a show for her. Yeah. We always recommend that one of the first few episodes be kind of focused on your story to build trust. And so I was like, well, Kurt or he did that, like you already had her on the show and you did an amazing job. So we're going to be actually dropping that local think tank episode into her feed. So actually put a link to the local experience podcast. I am. And actually after this interview, I'm going home into my studio and I'm recording an intro on that podcast that says, hey, go listen to Kurt's up. Go listen to Kurt's podcast episode. And then well, I would listen to what I'm like because it's going to be on yours. Right. So they'll listen to the episode on her feed. Right. But then we'll initially say, this is a great podcast. Oh, yeah. Go check out. Thanks for uploading this footage to local experience. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for that. I feel like the podcasting industry is super, super collaborative. Yeah. There's not many jerks in the industry. Right. And I feel almost every industry you're like, you know the jerks. Yeah. And I feel like in general, it's just it's a really collaborative industry. Like it's very, very common growth tool is to do these kind of like episode swaps or you know, you and I have the same size of show. So let's, you know, you promote my show and I promote my show. And that's really how a lot of people get to the kind of like one to 2000 downloads per episode mark is through this very collaborative feel. Yeah. And then people can start kind of like monetizing whether it's through a affiliate offers or sponsorships or different things like that. Yeah. Now with my podcast, we're in person only. Yeah. Is that a big handicap? Because you do the storytellers through zoom. So we do. No. So we do it through a platform called Riverside. Okay. There's several platforms that are pretty much high, they're pretty much like high definition versions of zoom. Okay. So they're just, it's a lot higher quality for recording virtually. But it's still a virtual thing where you're not in the same room as something. Yeah, it's a virtual thing. We're not in the same room. Which was a transition for sure, but it was one that I think was a good move. The right move for us. You know, for you, I think for sure. I mean, the thing about local think tank and the local experience podcast is I can't, I don't have anything to sell to anybody outside of Northern Colorado. Right. Which like, I don't think you should. Right. So that's the thing like. I think we will someday. Yeah. But like typically, typically the way that like sponsorship works in the podcasting space is. It's like a cost per thousand impressions. Right. Right. Pretty much all of marketing. So, you know, I'm podcasting and my, the average is around $25. Okay. So you, if you, if a thousand people listen to this episode and an advertiser comes to you and they say, we want to add in that and you would say, okay, it's $25. Okay. So you're going to give a thousand people. Gotcha. So $25 is not much. No. You're getting paid. Even at your $50 per episode thing. Yeah. For way back when you'd have to have two thousand downloads to justify it. Yeah, exactly. And then there's no margin. There's no taxes. There's no profit all that. Right. So it really doesn't, doesn't often work. I think when you get into more niche shows, you know, you have the ability to not charge based off of the impressions, but charge based off of the value for your audience. So for you. Right. You have, you know, a couple hundred downloads per episode, but those people are likely here. Right. They're in four comments. Yeah. So is it valuable for like for somebody for like, I'm thinking like in a state planner or something to be on the list of the show. It could also be like crazy carls. Like you could get like crazy carls. So they like right. And now there's the technology. Who's this part? Who do you host through? Buzzsprout. Okay. Yeah. They can let you update the ads and put it on everything. Yeah. So Buzzsprout has a tool called dynamic content. I love their team. They're great. They're team. They're actually the owners of Christians. They're in Jacksonville. They're really, really cool team of people. Cool. They, which there's plenty of cool people that are not Christians. But I was just excited. I was excited to just have like have that connection when I got to meet them. But they, they have a tool called like dynamic content. You know, you initially could record up to a five minute spot and then put it at the beginning of all of your episodes. Yeah. So probably half of your traffic is on your back library. Sure. And so if you sell an ad on this episode that's like in the episode. Right. That ad is naturally going to become outdated pretty quick. Right. As opposed to be, you know, if crazy carls pays you a thousand bucks. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can say, all right, we're going to play this in front of all of our episodes for 20 days. Yeah. Exactly. So I think there's some tools like that where you can like go more niche and more local way. Yeah. You know, it's a lot more valuable for somebody locally to say, okay, this is a local podcast, a local audience. Yeah. Typically podcast listeners are more educated, higher earning potential. They're listening because they want to learn. Right. So there's going to be a different reception to ads in podcasts than there are. When you're watching a YouTube video and you're just getting interrupted by right. Right. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, sometimes when I'm listening to ads, I'm like, I might try those. Yeah. I want to try that Vivo barefoot. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think there's, again, like having like a more focused podcast gives you a little bit more. A little bit more unique opportunity. One of the shows that we're getting ready to bring into our bring into our docket is actually a show interviewing interviewing people in the NFL community, primarily NFL women. Okay. And on the back end of the show, these hosts, they actually have a, they built like a private social platform for NFL lives. Oh. Obviously, like, you know, they probably don't spend a lot of their time on Instagram. They're probably always getting reached out to those platforms and stuff. So this is like a private little community where they can connect with other NFL lives. Interesting. And so they also produce a magazine. They're like the clients. They work really closely with the NFL. Yeah. And so they also produce a magazine that has articles and resources in it that goes to every NFL current and former family. So again, the number of that, the number of that, the number is not that big. Right. But the audience is pretty darn focused. Right. And there's a lot of advertisers that you would think would want access to that audience and exposure. And they're going to pay more because that audience is more focused. So I think you see that trend in podcasting and in other forms of media too, where it's like the more focused the audience, the more valuable the audience is. So that's a very specific kind of case where you know exactly who the audience is. Right. But one of the things that's frustrating to me, aside from the fact that I can know people are in the US or whatever and that they're on Apple. But otherwise I have no idea who those people are that are downloading and listening to the local experience. Yeah. So this is where I think NFTs are coming into play. That might feel very left feel this start talking about cryptocurrency now. No, I think there's one of our one of our clients and a friend of mine. He's they built a platform called uncut.fm. Okay. And it's an NFT membership platform for content creators. Part of the reason they built their platform is because you don't know who your fans are. Yeah. You know who you're you know that you have an audience, but there's like a difference between audience and a community. Sure. And so that's totally what we've been talking about is how do we build a community around the local experience? Like what does that even look like? Yeah. So I mean first off you need another name. Right. Like you need to know who they are and you don't get that information you just get a download. Yeah. So there's some opportunities. I think that the technology behind the technology behind NFTs I think is the future of like membership based. Like digital memberships I think will be done through NFTs. An example of this there's there's one podcaster named Brian Fanzo. He has a cryptocurrency podcast. Every episode he shares password. Okay. And in that password he says hey you know go go to our website and claim the NFT claim this episode's free NFT. Just show me that you're listening. Yeah. So you go in the password might be peaches. Right. And so you go in and you type in peaches. He's not sharing that password anywhere else. Right. But then you know he has 15 people that go and they put in that password. They get an NFT that NFT then you know gives them access to certain valuable. Like that's where they just yeah maybe he sends them a peach. But the more important thing with that is he knows who they are. Yeah. So you could even say like maybe you create an online you know a quick online training on business or something. And you say hey if you're listening to this episode go to our studio on uncut.fm. Enter the password. Kurt or enter Kurt loves peaches. Right. And I do that and I get an NFT and that NFT gives me authenticated access to certain perks online. So similar in aspects to Patreon. Yeah. Patreon you don't own anything. Right. With the NFT and different things you actually own. Like your members own and yeah there's a lot more ownership pieces to it. Initially when I think about NFTs I'm thinking about like the digital art kind of stuff. But it does you know just because it's a token. Right. It doesn't even have to be artsy. It's just a real. Yeah. So like on on uncut.fm they have a really cool platform where you can create your own NFTs or digital digital pieces of art. You can determine the price. You can determine if they're free or if their paths were protected. And then the people that claim those and that get those tokens you actually can communicate them with them. Oh through that even through that. It's not like they give you your email or whatever. But you do get their email. Okay. You get their email. Yeah. But you all you don't have to email me. You communicate with them directly through that platform. Really. So. And so if you go look at your Kurt's face local experience token. Uh huh. That we sent you for being a guest or whatever. Then there's like a messaging element to that interface as well. Yeah. There's messaging element. So interesting. It's still early. We're still seeing like some of the use cases for it. Um, one of the original shows that we're launching is called the minted podcast. Okay. Um, it's actually about how it's going to be documenting the journey of content creators starting to use NFTs. It's actually launching this week, which is fun. Is that you're doing that for some other creator? So we're doing that as story on and then it's like sponsored by uncut.fm. So it's kind of like powered by them. Yeah. Um, and they're the platform that we recommend to do it. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's really, really interesting with, with that. So like with the minted podcast, we will actually have. I'm going to be minting different NFTs and, you know, to start, I'm going to mint 50 NFTs. And it's going to be called, you know, I'm going to be inviting people to join the minted creator community. And we're initially saying, if you are a content creator and you're interested in talking about NFTs and how this technology connects to creators, go on. It's going to be really low cost. It'll be like 10 bucks. Yeah. They buy that. And then that community that they're a part of online, they can now communicate with other people in the community. I can communicate with them. Well, it's like anybody who's got that token. Exactly. Gets, can have that message or whatever. Yeah. Exactly. And so what's the interface like? Is it just like an email or lines of code or is it like? No, no, it's super simple. The interface is great. But yeah, I mean, as far as you're communicating, it's kind of similar to like a chat room or something like that. Okay. Yeah. But if I want to go to that community and say, hey, we're thinking about launching this new show or this new initiative. Yeah. I can have that community vote on it or different things. So you're kind of really creating a community around the show. And so I think that's where there's some interesting, interesting opportunities is through the like NFTs. And I think the main thing for content creators is it's going to make it a lot easier to turn your audience into a community. Yeah. Your community is not going to matter if you're not giving value to the community. So there is a sense of accountability that comes as a creator where it's like, okay. Well, you know, are we just going to like create this show and hope that people show up? Or are we going to be like thinking about how can we create this community that's really valuable? You think about if Joe Rogan would have done that 10 years ago. Right. Where he had, you know, a thousand people in that first year that said, hey, we want to be a part of your inside community. Right. That'd be pretty valuable nowadays to be a part of that community. And you could sell that you could sell access to that community. You could sell your token. Yeah. It's really, really interesting. There's a lot of potential use cases. I think in the next year we're going to see a lot of creators that start doing things like that where they say, thanks so much for listening. If you want to be a part of the loco, you know, podcast community and you want to get first access. Also, if you want to help me, maybe I take, I take one question from the loco community for my future. Yeah. For my next episode. So if you want to be a part of the interview is then do this. Or you could even do it to where the people that are listening live right now. Maybe you have to have an NFT in order to get in the door for that. So part of being in that community is you get to actually be alive with us. And you get to ask a question live and fire sides working on that technology as well. Or how Shapiro is doing it with daily wire or with Jordan Peterson. Like it's like, here, this is the free podcast now. But if you're a daily wire member, then you can have the last half hour of this interview. Yeah. In the interesting thing because of the, and this kind of comes a little bit full circle to some of the like free speech conversations and platform agnostic stuff. NFTs are platform agnostic. So like if, if you, if you join our, you know, the minted cond, the minted creator community and you get that $10 NFT because you want to, you know, be a part of this exclusive community of content creators. And let's just say, I don't think it's going to happen. Let's just say uncut.fm, the platform that we do this all through. They don't make it. Right. They shut their doors. You still have that token because that token is on the blockchain. Uh-huh. I still know who has my token because it's all through wallet addresses. Oh, interesting. So I could actually still send you, I could send you other NFTs that give you access to other, ask other platforms or other value. We, this, this last platform didn't work out, but we got this new platform. Here's your door key. Yeah. As opposed to, you know, you're on Facebook and say something Facebook doesn't like lost you. You're gone. I'm gone. You can't access those people. You don't have their email addresses. Yeah. You know, Patreon, you have a thousand patrons. Okay. They go, you're gone. Like if you're, if you, the platform shuts down or you don't want to go there anymore, then you're pretty limited. So in some, again, we're still really early, but the technology behind NFTs and crypto currency really is platform agnostic community building. Yeah. Which I think is really interesting. Have you ever, uh, have you ever had any posts removed or anything like that, Mr. Silvers? So no, but this is really interesting. You ask this. I, I just, I just took down an episode for the first time in my life from previous episode. I had, and I will, I will actually gladly share names of the company. Sure. Um, I had a interview to company name, uh, the CEO of a company named Spimbee. Okay. They create, uh, they're kind of, I, I look at them as kind of like an IKEA style, like, uh, kids playhouse. Okay. Like you, it's kind of like modular. You can kind of customize your own really cool designs. Yeah. And there are certified B corporation and seemed really legit. Okay. They're in the Netherlands or something. So I had their own around and you seemed great. I posted the episode and I got a barrage of Instagram comments, emails. Okay. Over like a six month period, like almost every week, I was getting some kind of people saying, like, how can we have this form exactly? Exactly. And them saying, like, we ordered our product a year ago, we haven't gotten anything. Oh my. They blocked us. We can't comment on their posts. We can't get in contact with them. Oh my. Probably comments from 30 different people that all were like, very much the same. As a fraudster. We ordered it. We never got anything in return and they, we can't get a refund. We can't even get in contact with their customer support. So I mean, at the end of the day, I was like, I'm just going to take this down to, like, strip, you know, removed all the posts and told those people yesterday, thanks for bringing this to our attention. Yeah. Like, interesting. We didn't, we didn't know this. So I haven't had anything removed or censored, but that was an interesting case of where I actually posted something that then looking back on it was like, I should have done my homework more. And that, that was not like, that probably wasn't the right business to put out there. What do you think the ratio of actual censorship to self-sensorship is, if you imagine the psyches and norms, I feel like the interesting thing, even though there's a lot of censorship happening, I suspect like, that's the tip of the iceberg. Like 90, 95% of it is self-sensorship where people are scared to say what they would like to express. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's hard to know. It's hard to pick a number. Yeah. Yeah. You feel like you've self-sensored. Like, you had a thought you wanted to share it. And then you've feared the consequences too much. Yeah. And I mean, I don't, I'm sure that will happen more if I have more of an audience. I think some of that might be self-sensorship. I think some of it might be awareness and also knowing like, I try and think of like, what's the goal here? So you brought up like, okay, did I mention anything about the Ben Shapiro stuff when I was on stage with Mark Cuban? Right. It's like, what's the goal here? I'm walking on to the keynote stage. I feel very blessed and thankful for this opportunity. I know that this opportunity is, you know, building credibility for our business. And what's the goal, what's the purpose of me going on? It's like, okay, the goal of me going on stage is to do an incredible job, hopefully, interviewing Mark Cuban to get Mark and Falon the speakers to understand what they want to share and what their goal is for that time and hopefully to get that across and also to be aware of the audience and what they want to hear. And also knowing, I know Dan, I know Jared, who run podcast movement, what do they want this time to be? Right. Right. Like, those are my goals. This is not the time for me to stand up and say, I have a personal statement about the tweet that came out an hour ago. That would be... That was like some more like, well, that was a shit storm cause by that tweet, guys. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah, no. And yeah, I could have. So I think even online, it's like, if I build a show or a platform that is very based around like me sharing my personal beliefs in that setting, then like that's something I'll be probably thinking a lot more about and being like, okay, like I'm going to be more transparent about what I think. I personally just, I don't care a ton about putting my personal beliefs out into the world. I'm more than happy to talk about my personal beliefs with people in my circle. Yeah. And I enjoy doing that. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I think that's all... It's a hard conversation to have, but there's definitely been times where I'm like frustrated or something to... And you know, I don't want to say something and even like, at podcast movement when that tweet came out, it was with one of my clients and he was pissed about it. Right. He's like, I'm going to make a tweet about this and I was like, maybe you should wait. And he's like, why? I was like, maybe just wait until the afternoon until you're less pissed about it. He's like, no, I got to send it now and I was like, well, why do you want to send it now? He's like, because people are talking about it now and more people will react to it. I was like, so you're saying that the main reason that you want to post now is so that people react to it. He's like, and then he posted and then he got blocked by a bunch of people. So I think that like in that, there's the water. Yeah, there's definitely times that like, I want to say stuff online or disagree with things that are going on on a bunch of different facets and they're in up and like, yeah, this isn't the time or. So who are your main podcasts, like who captures a lot of your listening time? Are you really a whole bunch of ones, but just a little bit of each kind of thing or what's your, what's your on your regular rotation? Yeah, that's a good idea or a good idea. That's a good question. I think there's kind of a variety, you know, people like Joe Rogan and like Jordan Harbinger, I definitely don't listen to everything that they do, but I appreciate them as interviewers and they bring on really interesting people. Sure. And so those are two shows where I really pick them. Yeah, probably once a month I'll go in and cherry pick and maybe pick an episode or two. There's two, two shows that are focused on like the creator economy, mostly, they mostly lean towards like YouTube creators, but they talk about podcasts or something. They talk about the business side behind it. One is the call and some year show. And one is called the iced coffee hour with a finance, like a guy named Graham Steph and he's kind of made his name on YouTube by doing good financial stuff. Okay. So those are some that I listened to. I've really recently, I've been really been liking your show called Business Movers. Okay. It's a Wondery show. The host is this guy named Lindsey Graham. I actually got to have cocktails with like two weeks ago and I was like, I've heard your voice on something. It's because he has a bunch of big podcasts. So that's a really fun one where he goes into like moments of conflict with like prominent business owners and they just do such a good job of telling those stories. Yeah. What was the name of it? It's called Business Movers. Okay. I'm trying to think of some others. I also like, I'm trying to get better about listening to more and more of our client shows. Sure. So like right now we have six shows that are pre-production. Especially the first 10 episodes of those shows. Like I'm very involved with like critiquing those shows. So you listen to it in whole and then like take notes and edit some things out and stuff like that or like how does that work? How does that? Like for those that edit their shows and stuff, what are you trying to achieve? Yeah. So I, me personally, I do not listen to every show that's put out by our company. Up to this point now, like some, some weeks that's 15 or 20 shows. Some weeks it's not, but I can't do that mentally. Right. We'll just time. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm starting to get better about like having my team bring shows that they want me to review and getting that review process. I've even thought about like paying like finding a college kid that I can pay like 10 bucks to show and be like, Hey, here's this review. Here's this critique form like, listen to this podcast like we've explored unique ideas like that. Um, when we're launching a show, we kind of launch and I can accelerate our format. So we'll do a 12 week program. Well, you're hitting a kind of launch a show. Um, we'll do coaching to hopefully help you understand how to be a good podcast host and then we'll produce the first 10 episodes. Those first 10 episodes, I am listening to those personally and I am providing really specific critique on those first ones. Then once it goes past that, it kind of goes more to our team. On average, we probably have two different team members that are listening to an entire episode. We're not cutting out likes, um, Oz, okay, um, I think that makes it seem too much like TV, which seems produced, right, um, podcast should be conversational. So you can't remove all of those, but we're definitely like looking for is their moments where things are too repetitive or where we need to take them out. So we're not doing like we are not doing audio engineering. That is very different than like we're editing. We're doing, you know, chopping, maybe some rearranging, maybe some removing repetition. Um, you know, we're doing really professional intros, professional outros, things like that. And then we're focusing a lot on creating like the con the promotional content on the back end. So micro content for, you know, like Instagrams and LinkedIn and talk on a 30 minute podcast into 20 or at least 10 content pieces kind of. Yeah. So that's where a lot of our focus is in like the post production content. We prefer for our podcast to be much more like conversational and not unedited, but, um, seeming like a professional take on a authentic conversation. Yeah. Um, you didn't mention Lex Friedman. Have you been listening to his podcast at all? I haven't. I haven't. No, I haven't turned. I've turned onto him last January and he's kind of my new favorite. Um, he's a little, um, I'm going to look up, I'm going to look up my list. He's a little deeper than Rogan in some ways, a little more philosophical. Yeah, I honestly, I don't think I've listened to a show. I've heard his name a lot and I, like, I've heard about him, um, he's a Russian Ukrainian by birth, MIT scientist guy, robot builder, AI engineer, but yeah. So I mean, some other ones on the earth, like one show, um, I actually have a page, it's a private podcast. It's my first one. It's called Good Morning Podcasters. Interesting. Um, it's about a 10 minute daily show. I probably listen to three out of the five days. Okay. That's kind of on the podcast industry. It's by a friend of mine, Tanner Campbell, and that's like a good industry show. Um, I actually one show that I've really liked, uh, is, um, I, I generally really like Logan Paul's podcast and Paul's, uh, the Paul brothers are very controversial people, but they're one people that, like, they're young people that I'm just like really intrigued by their business journey, um, and so that's another one I kind of cherry pick. I've also recently, there, there's some like financial shows that I really like. So like one of those is, um, the stacking Benjamin show, um, and then another one called the table with Anthony O'Neill. Anthony O'Neill actually used to be with Ramsey solutions. Oh, okay. About a year ago, he transitioned out and he started his own show, um, just talking about like, you know, financial education and strategies and different things like that. So have you, uh, listened to hot ones before? So I've never listened to it. I've watched it. Okay, too. So yeah, I've heard that it's a show like I haven't in the last, like, I haven't since pre-COVID. Yeah, but I used to, I think that show concept is awesome. I think it's pretty funny. Yeah, I don't know how to quit. Well, I started, I had a peaches here when I, when I watched the peaches this morning, I was like, oh, this could be like my thing. I always feed my guest peaches and I was like, that makes no sense. Yeah. And he's, um, I think it's Sean Evans. Maybe he sounds right. He, he, he's just a brilliant interviewer. He really does such a good job. And like his, I mean, it's such a brilliant concept for listeners that don't know, like they have, oh, over the interview, it's usually 20 or 30 minutes. There's 10 hot wings that are progressively hotter than hotter and hotter, and like the hottest one is like 10,000 times the hotness to bask or something crazy. Usually, yeah. And so it's really interesting because as the interview goes on, these celebrities, like all of their guards are down. Right. They're getting more and more vulnerable. And as they're like dying, they want to punch him. He brings, it's not just like, tell me about your child that he brings like these crazy in-depth questions. Like 10 years ago, you were on this interview with this person and you said this, which caused this article and they responded to this. Tell me about that. I'm here dying, like, and it's so funny. But you look at like, like Gordon Ramsay, that episode is amazing. Okay. Because you have Gordon Ramsay just f-bombing everything because he's like, like, he's eating hot. Yeah, it's so like, there's like Gordon Ramsay. I know one with Paul Rodd is hilarious. There's a couple different ones. But yeah, hot ones, I think that show concept is great. I mostly watched on YouTube, though. So I know we got to wrap this up pretty quick here. If there was one question that you really wouldn't want me to ask you, what question would that be? I've never been asked that question. I mean, I feel like a, I feel like a pretty open book. Like I actually remember coming in here as like, you know, I know there's probably a few things we'll talk about. But it kind of thinking like this is like one setting. And obviously we have a good friendship as well. So it's like, I wouldn't such a fool. Yeah. But also, I feel pretty like open to, you know, whether we, I was like, you know, whether we go down the route of talking about like personal challenges we're dealing with that might not be so pretty or business ones or whatever. It's like, I think that would like, I feel pretty open to answering the most. You know, when you were, I have to compliment you when you were on the show last time, which was probably about 18 months ago, um, you were kind of in a more tentative space and very retrospective about your business journey. And, and you didn't have 20 clients. I know that. Yeah. And, uh, I'm, I'm really glad I'm proud of you for really, you know, finding that space and really cultivating it in, you know, way that seems like you're just on the beginning of some serious momentum. So yeah, no, I appreciate that. And yeah, timing wise, that would have been a more tentative space. And I think I always heard people say like the riches are in the niches, right? It was like, oh, that's good for everybody else. Like, I'm going to serve everybody. And so I feel very, I think one of the best decisions that, yeah, that we made was just saying like, all right, there's a lot of things we could be doing. We're going to focus and this can be the one thing that we do. Yeah, you can do anything, but you can't do everything. It's true. Yeah, all these like cheesy slogans are actually true. Yeah, and sometimes they're, they're diametrically opposed to each other, but they're still both true. I don't know how that works. But, yeah, well, I love your brother. Thanks for being on the show again. Yeah, absolutely God speed to your, oh, we were going to talk about you've got a, do you have a podcast event coming up in Denver? Yeah, we're going to do. I think we're going to do it like, uh, I think it's probably going to be early November now. Okay, okay. But yeah, we're going to do like a Colorado podcast or meetup kind of thing. And how would people like find out about that? And also how can people find you and story on? Yeah, I'm sure you're thingies and whatever. Yeah, probably. I mean, I'm, my name is Seth Silver's on everything, I think. So like any social platforms, um, a good play. I mean, our website is a success with stories.com. Okay. Um, so that's a good, you'll have information about this. Yeah, yeah, I think it's probably on your Facebook. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I'll post about it on social, um, I think if people, yeah, if you're specifically interested in going, then just reach out to me personally and I'll make sure you have the details of that. But, and if you want to, uh, ride share, uh, with, yeah, I'll be going down I probably, yeah, yeah. So that'd be fine. Like we're going to probably do to a year. Okay. Um, for kind of a Colorado podcast community and, you know, we're getting, we're getting sponsors and different things. So that's actually like, yeah, I might be interested in sponsoring that. Yeah, we're just kind of like, I'd rather, I want, I want to do well. I mean, you and I, we've both done events. We've both done really good events before. And I think you and I are like, we're going to do an event. Yeah. Let's make it a memorable and I've done some pretty lame events before too. So when, when you're going to come back to local think tank membership, uh, it feels like, maybe that's the question that's, that's the question. I don't know. Maybe, maybe we can talk about that offline. So I think, I think the next year it would be interesting. Yeah. Um, I just joined a podcast industry masterminds. Oh, cool. Um, that, I mean, it's serving a very different purpose than local thing. Think, but yeah, we should, we should talk about that. All right. Sounds good. Hey, so I love you. We're going to let you go. Thank you. Appreciate it. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode. This is Alma Ferrer, producer of the local experience podcast. If you enjoyed this program and would like to support the show, please share it with your favorite people and leave us a review. To see upcoming guests behind the scenes footage and more, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn at the local experience. Subscribe to never miss the latest interview. And until next time, stay local.