EXPERIENCE 53 | Sarah Lukemire, Founder and Lead Strategist at Brindle Digital Media

My guest on today's podcast was Sarah Luke Meyer, founder and lead strategist at Brindle Digital Media. Sarah tells a lot about her story of getting into the market industry where she earned her chops early after college. How her dad talked her out of dropping out of college to open a tannings lawn. She shares a lot of great tips. She's got her top four tips for self-marketers. We share a good conversation about the most important things in life and family, and this one is just chock full of a really authentic person, sharing a lot about what she does to make her clients successful in the world of marketing. And so I hope you'll tune in. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast. I'm your host, Kurt Bear. This show is produced by me and my team and sponsored by my small business, LOCO Think Tank, and sometimes others. Episodes feature a range of local and regional business and community leaders as guests in a conversational interview format. Our guests are interesting and successful people with unique business journeys, and the more business education and unbarnished truths we can uncover, the better. You'll feel like you really know our guests after each episode, and if I'm doing my job well, listeners will find business principles and tips from their journey and a greater appreciation for each of our guests. Woven into these long format experience episodes are occasional thoughtful episodes, topically focused snippets of five to fifteen minutes where our guests unfold important and timely business truths, and also I'll read the local perspective bug posts because I'm lazy to infer to listen and then to read, and maybe you do too. Thanks for tuning in, and if you'd like to show a please subscribe, review, and share it with your favorite people. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Baer, and I'm here today with Sarah Luke Meyer. And Sarah is the founder and leads strategist at Brindle Digital Marketing. And Sarah, why don't you just start us off by telling us like, who does Brindle serve, what kind of clients, and what's your team look like today, and then we'll kind of get into the journey from there? Sure thing. So Brindle Digital Marketing serves primarily the multi-family industry and small businesses. We focus on web design, social media marketing, and digital advertising. So yeah, about 80% of our clients are in the multi-family development space, so apartment complexes is you and I would refer to. I was a banker for a long time, and when I think about building companies and stuff like that, like you don't realize how critical marketing is for that, both in developing a brand but also getting the word out about your project. And so you can really become that expert for those companies that know how to build stuff but not how to tell people about it. Correct, yeah. And I think that it's something that is overlooked as far as how much branding and marketing comes into play, even for multi-family housing. So it's a very competitive market. It's more saturated than ever. And the other thing to consider is that there's always residents, you know, there's always churn, so people moving in, people moving out. They're always looking always. Yeah, it's like a retail store or a restaurant where you're always trying to find new customers, kind of. Yeah, it is. Interesting. Yeah, and I've noticed that the like real estate projects, a lot of times they have a name that may be the name of their address and things like that or the commons. You know, they're very much more branded and it used to be just, you know, the apartment at the corner of such and such as an eightplex or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe didn't even have a logo, right? Right. And it was called the willows along with eight other buildings. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So that's really been a market niche that has evolved to become its own thing in a lot of respects. Yes, 100%. And I would say to our sweet spot is really those multifamily communities that can justify somewhat bear marketing budget. So most of our clients are, you know, 100 plus units and up. Right. Right. Yeah. Very good. So, um, and what's your team today? Yeah. So currently there are, we have, all of us are based out of a Northern Colorado here, minus the exception of a few team members who work remote. Like our developers out of Texas and then, yeah, there's, there's seven of us here in Northern Colorado. Okay. And then we also rely on a small team of contractors that just kind of help with the ebbs and flows that exist within, you know, the marketing business. So if we get, you know, a slew of branding projects that come on and our designer is maxed out, then we can kind of tap into our contractors. Also importantly, prevents having a bunch of employees sitting around twiddling their thumb. Exactly. Exactly. Not billing for. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Profitability is a thing. So did you start out with that real estate emphasis? Or maybe let's go back to the early days, always when people start a marketing company, I'm curious about that story. Yeah. So no, we did not start as specifically serving like one industry or we weren't, you know, niching down or niching down. Yeah. Per say that is something that evolved after I would say a year and a half. Okay. When we went into it, it was kind of a, you know, we serve everyone because I had the mindset of, we don't want to, you know, block ourselves out or miss out on any business, which I think, you know, hindsight's 2020 and, yeah, Specialist is definitely the way to go. We said in banking, the niches get the riches. One hundred percent. I was going to say, I think Pat Flynn, do you listen to his podcast ever? I don't know. Okay. Yeah. The riches are, yeah, in the niches. Oh, sure. Well, it sounds like we'd resonate in that regard. I'm going to say, yeah, something to listen to. So, yeah. And then how that transpired is, I mean, we started working with a local developer who, you know, was breaking into the multifamily industry and started doing websites and branding efforts, digital marketing, such as Google ads and Facebook ads for them. And just saw the opportunity that existed within that industry. And so really started to hone in on it. You know, I think like to think that we're really good at what we do. And so figured, let's, let's try to become, you know, the industry, they kind of rely on a standard playbook as far as multifamily. It's like, this is the way that we've, we've kind of always done things. There's a lot of old school mindsets and, yeah, so breaking into it and, you know, working with some really awesome teams has been. Has been, has been fun. So you've said we a couple of times talking about those earliest days. Talk to me about that. Was there a we at the very beginning? Or was it you with a shingle or in pretty much me with a shingle to begin with? I would say for the first five months, it was myself. Okay. And then, yeah, about five or six months in, hired my first team member. And so yeah, it has been a wee for quite some time. So Brindel's coming up on, let's see, five year anniversary. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, and everything we do, I mean, is a team effort. So now it's, you know, I'm trying to work more, trying keyword to work more on the business. Yeah, yeah. So tell me about, like, where you were in life, two months, three months before, you founded Brindel. Sure thing. So I was working at a marketing agency. Okay. I'm a local marketing agency who all, uh, yeah, let remain anonymous. Sure. If you find me unlinked and, you know, obviously, right? Yeah. So I was working as a digital strategist leading all of their efforts there. And prior to that, even I was a marketing director for a small business, food manufacturer, kind of like their solo marketing department. Right, right. So that's where I, yeah, I got a lot of my experience and boots on the ground. Exactly. Yeah. So, and after, you know, moving back, which I can get into, moving back to Colorado, which where I'm from, um, from Greeley, and wanted, you know, to get back here ever since I had moved out of state. Yeah, started working for a marketing agency. And really wanted to kind of branch off. I always had that, you know, entrepreneurial spirit to do my own thing. And I just never knew, you know, what would I do, right? Right. And. Well, and if you don't have any skills or experience to speak of your own thing, it's going to be a failure probably. So you got to kind of get some of that experience first. Exactly. Exactly. And so I had been doing some freelancing on the side too. And that's when, you know, I think, you know, my husband, um, boyfriend and at the time, we're talking and it's like, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm either going to add, you know, jump now. Right. And do this and fall on my face or I'll catch myself and, yeah, go from there. So I had set myself up, you know, pretty well, from, you know, financial standpoint, gave myself some runway expecting that, that significant dip. So you worked those 60 hour weeks for a while, working 40 hours a week at the office, and 20, 25 hours a week or 40 hours a week sometimes if you needed to from home, freelancing, but you're saving that nest egg so that when it does come time, you can, you can suffer through a pickup for a while. Exactly. Yeah. And honestly, I mean, things took off, you know, I'm blessed to say that things took off pretty fast, much faster than I expected. Yeah. Well, I want to come back to those early months and those first tires and stuff. But before that, let's jump in the way back and third grade Sarah. Like you mentioned that you were from Colorado and then you moved away, but we'll get to that part. I'm sure. But from Greeley, born and raised. Yeah. So born in Aurora, moved to Greeley when I was an infant. So pretty much don't remember Aurora too much. Not Greeley. Yeah. If you will. Yeah. So went to school, you know, through, went two years even, you know, kindergarten through high school in Greeley, then went to UNC in Greeley for two years. And then my parents had split. My mom had been living in Minnesota for a couple of years. And yeah, I had the urge to, you know, young, not knowing what I'm doing. I was like, Greeley, you know, let's get out of here. It's cold in Minnesota, huh? It's cold in Minnesota. Where did you go? Yeah, I was in, oh my gosh, I think I moved eight times when I was in Minnesota, but I was always around the Metropolitan Minneapolis St. Paul area. Okay. And I had moved out there. My mom was working, you know, with the school district. All of my credits transferred up there, finished college up there with a degree in marketing, which I think is, honestly, if I'm being transparent, just kind of a coincidence. I did not know what I wanted to do when I was in college, so. Were you in marketing the whole time, or was that just like? I was in business management and then shifted to marketing. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah. It was in the business, yeah. So you graduate? Yeah, graduated. Got my, yeah, had a couple first jobs in, you know, as marketing coordinator. I also, you know, served weighted tables all throughout college. It's kind of what put me through college. Yeah. Me too. Exactly. I think everyone needs to. Well, the social skills that you build will bless you for a lot longer than the paychecks that you don't really get during that time. Yeah. At least you get tips so you can go out drinking on. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, make a pretty decent salary. Yeah, the per hour, for sure. Serving tables. So, yeah, afterwards, I mean, I got a job and that's actually kind of a story of its own. So, yeah, I waited tables for 10, you know, 15 years until I was about 28 years old. I grad, yeah, attended a job fair. This was how I like landed my first, you know, real job, if you will, outside of college. And, yeah, I got the job because I attended a job fair that was half a mile from my house in Burnsville, Minnesota. And I think we must have got like five feet of snow the day before. No, the wheels got there. Yeah, and so I was like, I really wanted to attend this job fair. I was driving a Honda Accord. Oh my. Yeah, so there was no driving in there, right? So it was like, it was like a mile from my house. So I was like, I'm going to walk to this job fair. And, yeah, ended up landing a job with the food manufacturer there who has a couple national brands. And my, yeah, I had a really fortunate to have some great leadership and bosses there. You know, they were very objective or like goal based as far as these are, this is what I want you to achieve and now go do it. And I think a lot of people could have failed in that position. I saw it as a challenge. And so, you know, my one job was to promote this national brand, build a following for it, start a blog for it, work with, you know, and those were the good old days of social media. Sure, when it was easy, you get followers on Facebook and stuff. Yeah, when you could engage a couple food bloggers and influencers at the time. And there were probably like a few. Exactly. Send them some free product. And yeah, they promote your stuff and you get 5,000 followers. Like sweet. Are you at liberty to say like who this food manufacturer was? Yeah, it was log house foods. Okay. No one has ever heard of. Right. They do, you know, I can't disclose as far as the accounts maybe that we private labeled for. But they were a private labeler and then they also had a couple national brands, one of which was called Candy Quick. And it's a melting chocolate. Okay. And was that what you were promoting was the Candy Quick? That was my, yeah, that was my baby. That was my primary marketing focus when I was there. So when I was kind of a solo marketing department, if you will, alongside a graphic designer who taught me a lot as well. That's so cool. Yeah. That first real opportunity to polish your craft or whatever. Yeah. You're apparently older than I realized. So good job on looking good. So bring me back a little bit like what was young Sarah like when you were, when did your parents split when you were at a young age? Do you have siblings? Do you have an athlete? Like, talk to me about what she was all about. Yeah, sure thing. I mean, honestly, I was kind of a nerd and all throughout school. Okay. Pretty quiet, reserved. Yeah, my family. I mean, we've always been pretty close. All of my family. Pretty much in Colorado. And I have one brother, one younger brother. He's five years younger than me. We were always pretty close to growing up. I mean, typical siblings, right? Like, pick on each other and you have your differences and whatnot, especially at that age. You know, I was like, I don't want anything to pick. Well, and you were clearly so much smarter than him by that point. Yeah. Obviously, right? Still. If he's listening. Yeah. So yeah, and growing up, I mean, yeah, I was, I played violin throughout. Yeah, school. I'm kind of regretting, like, ever dropping it. And I think we all do that as far as, like, why did I ever quit? Like, riding a bike, though, right? Yeah. You can pick it up if you practice a little. Yeah, I've honestly thought now, like, I should do that. Um, was also very involved with horseback riding. I competed and, yeah, I had a horse up until I was 17 at that point. Yeah, I had, um, like English riding or barrel racing? No. I mean, I've done everything, honestly. I did everything from Hunter Jumper. Um, also compete. Most of what I did was Western pleasure. Um, out at the good old Greeley saddle club. Okay. Yeah. So, uh, tell me about that. Like, what's Western pleasure riding? Like, and then you compete. And so, what is it a race? Is it about style points for? No. Yeah. It's more about style points. Okay. So, if you've seen, have you ever been to a horse show? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And as far as, you know, Western or English. Um, so the saddle type is different. Yeah. Um, it's primarily, I had an American quarter horse that I competed on. Okay. Um, I mean, we were not, you know, going to be your next, like, Miss Rodeo or anything like that. Right. I just went to the National Western a few weeks ago with my dad. He was down visiting. And, uh, there was a gal that had, uh, a pair of bearback horses with no saddle, no bridle. Just voice commands and knees. Wow. So, riding around and making them interact with each other in different ways. Yeah. And it was pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still enjoy horseback riding. I think, uh, you know, less so from the competition standpoint. But there's, you know, to me, that's kind of my release as far as, if, uh, yeah, if I can get on a horse and just even go on a trail ride or something like that, it's just, yeah. Am I to release? Do you keep a horse now or? I do not. No. And I don't know, honestly, a file, you know, I've had the opportunity to know some people who have horses and whatnot, um, and had a great friend in Minnesota that I rode with all the time. But no, I don't, I do not have a horse. As far as time, I think, you know, it's a big time. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, um, so you get this job with this food manufacturer and you're having a lot of fun learning a lot, making a difference, you know, getting followers and stuff. And like, take me to the next chapter in that evolution of your career. Yeah. So I was with them for quite some time, um, had a ton of fun opportunities. I mean, I was doing everything from, I mean, when they said they wanted a blog, well, it was like, who's gonna write the blog? Well, first of all, let's back up even further. Who's going to develop and design this blog? And here's, you know, me googling how to start a blog. And, you know, those were back in the days of WordPress and blogger and whatnot. I mean, WordPress is still here. Bloggers pretty much dead. Right, right. And so, yeah, it was, it was everything from starting the blog to making the recipes to photographing the recipes. Um, to yeah, then resizing, editing them in Photoshop. And yeah, putting them on the blog. Then after that, there was a whole post promotion, you know, strategy and then social and engaging with them. So yeah, and going to trade shows and whatnot. Gotcha. So it sounds like this was a fairly established company. It was. But like the world was changing. They recognized that they needed this digital presence and to be in the blogosphere or whatever and all that. And so you were kind of like their cornerstone upon which they kind of built that. Yeah. And I mean, it's a very, very old brand. I mean, if you think back to the days of almond bark, you know, when your grandma maybe, you know, poured it out on the table and they probably made it. Right. So, um, they were the major, yeah, and private labeled for most of the grocery stores that you and I shop at and whatnot as far as almond bark and the candy quick and whatnot. So, um, so yeah, that, that was a really, really positive and good experience. And I, I flourished in it. And it was actually, you know, after that, it was, it was sad because I always wanted to get back to to Northern Colorado. I missed Colorado from the moment I left. Yeah. I think it was one of those things that you take for granted. Yeah. And yeah, move away. So I saw that as a, you know, an opportunity. I had been with them. I think nearly five years. And said, I'm either going to, I'm either going to move back or like I'm just going to get more involved in, in, you know, just Minnesota and my, as I'm getting older. Yeah. Or I have to get out of here now before I really get too far along in that. Exactly. I don't uproot too much when I move back to Colorado. Exactly. Yeah. So that's when I decided I'm moving. And I, I went in and had a really tough conversation, you know, with my, with my boss. And I said, this is where my heart set. I want to move here. And were you like the director of marketing for them almost? Yeah, I was the director of marketing. And I mean, they were, yeah, they were upset. And I said, you know, I'd be willing to, you know, even do some remote work and whatnot. So I think that that's, you know, and they were very, very gracious and supported me throughout that whole process. So, you know, it was, it was a transition and they let me basically work up until the end. And then at that point, I, you know, packed all of my IKEA furniture and moved back to. You just held the Honda. Greeley, Colorado. The Honda came with. I no longer have the Honda though. So like, where did you land? Like back with family or anything like that? Are you just picked an apartment up and, you know, whatever? So I actually had a house built at that point. Oh, yeah. That was my, my first house. I had been saving up. And now I'm kicking myself, you know, that I didn't buy one in 2008 back then. And, you know, I'm able to sell it. But here we are. So. And certainly, when is this? So this was in. Let's see. 2000. Trying to think. 2011. Okay. 2012. Yeah. So moved back. And no, it was actually a little bit later than that. Yeah. So, yeah, moved back. I thought I'm never going to be back in Greeley. But here we are. You know, I was building my first house in Greeley, Colorado. Yeah. And then that's when I actually before I even moved out here, I had landed a job because I came to visit family. Started looking for a job. And that's when I was offered a position at the marketing agency. Actually out of Fort Collins. And so, yeah, that was a part time remote role as well. So I was able to basically, you know, seamlessly transfer up here. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. Can I ask, are you kind of Greeley's got a less sexy reputation maybe than Fort Collins? And you didn't necessarily have strings attached and you worked for a Fort Collins agency. Like, why did you choose Greeley? Was it to be closer to family or just price points and things like that? Or like, yeah. Tell me about that decision process because you seem very thoughtful about those kind of things. All of the above. And I do think, I mean, I say, you know, Greeley because I do think that it gets a bad rap. But don't get me wrong. I love Greeley. I think that there's a lot to love about, yeah, just Greeley. I agree. I'm a farm kid. So frankly, I feel almost more comfortable when I'm in Greeley than when I'm here. Absolutely. And I mean, I think the younger, the younger Sarah did, you know, thought, oh, when I live in Fort Collins, I don't want to move to Minneapolis. I'm going to move to the big city. Well, yeah, grow up a little bit. No, I'll take Greeley all day long. I live in Minneapolis for a while and you're like, oh, it's all right. Exactly. So, yeah. So I mostly at that point, you know, had selected Greeley. I think the only thing that was not maybe as attractive about Greeley were the concern of any job opportunities at that point. Right. But I mean, as far as the price point of the home, I was able to, you know, get in a house a lot, a lot less expensive than even, you know, Windsor and Fort Collins. Right. So that was what attracted me and then also family. So at the end of the day, you know, that matters a lot to me and my dad and my grandfather are in Greeley still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, it sounds like you had this entrepreneurial itch, you know, you knew you wanted to have your own thing and stuff. Did you spend like a lot of time like planning for that and thinking about niches and brands and names and like, where did Brindle come from? Was that something that you had sitting in your back pocket for a year or two before you made that leap? Yeah. So that's a good, that's a good question. And I guess I'm leaving a piece of this out to you as far as, well, I should say, when I was two years probably into college, I said, I'm done with this. I think I'm going to drop out and start my own business, which you'll laugh. I was like, I'm going to start at panning salon because I think I can make a lot of money in this and whatnot. And my dad, thank you dad, quickly talked me out of dropping out of college. I think everything has happened, you know, meant to happen for a reason. I will say it gained most of my experience outside of college in the world, but yeah. So yes, I always kind of had that itch and, you know, for one reason or another, didn't take the leap at certain times. And even when I was working at a log house, I had started a dog blog and, you know, I really fell in love. I loved what I was doing, fell in love with marketing and started a dog blog. I was very involved in the rescue world, animal rescue world, and have a lot of passion for that. Yeah. And so in start of the dog blog, so that I spent probably every night, several hours marketing the dog blog. Wow. Yeah. And do you monetize a little bit? I did a little bit, not to the point that I probably could have. I did have a post go pretty viral. I think in, I mean, in the blog still, I spent a couple hours pinning on Pinterest every night, right? Like I had a full blown marketing strategy for this blog. Like something that people maybe don't respect enough about like a marketing agency and what a marketing company does or a marketing person. Like there's a lot of just work. There is. And it's, if it's social media posts or Pinterest tags or, you know, responding to people and stuff, like there's just a lot of, like it seems so invisible almost, but there's, you know, if you were turning wrenches, there'd be a lot of different wrenches every day every week. There is. Yeah. There is. And I would say, I mean, the long term efforts that I put in back then are still like, you know, paying off. I mean, I have the site up. It's not maintained. In fact, yeah, it's still up though. And I have Google Analytics and I check it just out of curiosity. And the site is still getting 10, 12, 15,000 visitors a month. I mean, during peak, I think, you know, and I was super proud of this moment. I, and this was mostly due. I know numbers can be deceiving, especially, you know, being in the marketing world. I was pretty proud that we hit a million visitors on the site within, you know, one year. Absolutely. That's really impressive. Yeah. And so I thought, yeah, if I could just do this, but it is also tricky. And so I knew that that could be my full time, full time gig and whatnot. So yeah, that was, that was interesting too. And then after I still was, you know, blogging and whatnot. And then when I, yeah, I was back in Colorado and freelancing as well and pretty much, you know, putting in 60, 70 hours a week between full time job, blog, you know, and then freelancing and decided, okay, I'm going to start this on things. So where does the name Brindle come from? Good memory. Yeah. So the name Brindle, actually, you know, I have a rescued little pity. Yeah. I wondered about that. I was like, oh, maybe there's Brindle in there. I was going to say if you're a dog person and all, you'll know that Brindle is a coat color. Yeah. And she is, she was inspiration for the name. So when I was starting Brindle, I had, you know, gone to a notebook and started just brainstorming a ton of, a ton of different names as far as, you know, what am I going to call this company? And is there significance to it? Brindles, you know, an interesting, almost like a, what do they call the, like a calico cat is similar to a Brindle dog, right? Exactly. Like it's this mix of things. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, not really besides that it was Lola is one of my dogs. Yeah. And she has a Brindle colored coat. And I thought, you know, that's, that's kind of a cool word too. And it's easy to say it, you know, it doesn't have any negative, like, you know, annotations when you say it. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know if Lola is your mask. I don't know if that's basically. Yeah. She basically is. So that's, yeah, that's the story behind the name, not, I mean, not a ton. And then I had known a couple designers as far as, you know, getting an actual identity made. Because I'm definitely not the graphic designer. Okay. And so, yeah. I hired Emily. She's amazing. Emily Day. Emily Day. Yeah. I love her. Designed art. Yeah. Designed art, low girl. And, yeah, that was the start of it. And then built the website. Yeah. Started taking customers really. Exactly. So, talk to me about that first hire. Yeah. What did you have them do? Good question. Because that was always, I was like, what am I going to have? Like, I know I'm overflowing. Yeah. I know I can't handle all of this myself. And that's when, you know, I actually had to put my business owner hat on and start, you know, honestly, like just joining some groups and small business groups and finding out like, who's the best person to hire? I mean, the first one, I think it only gets more complex as you continue to grow and why not as far as team members and growth and whatnot. But that first one, it was like, well, I obviously can train somebody to do, you know, X, Y, and Z as far as some of the social media content creation. Some of those rich training things. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I'm going to go back to some of the things that I had started to develop the processes for. So that was my first hire was, you know, a marketing coordinator, if you will, if you want to put a title to it, and just delivering on those client, those client deliverables as far as social media calendars, social media management, email marketing. And then I was still managing the more strategic initiative. So. Sure. And obviously most all the client relationships were your contact and whatever. So are you a process oriented person by nature? Did you already have a lot of those processes before you hired somebody? And the reason I asked, okay, good. Because like the normal thing is when it's just me or you or whatever you do all the things, you don't really have a process, but then you hire somebody in like two weeks and they're like, so what's, what am I supposed to do? And you're like, well, I guess we need a process. Yeah, yeah, more that. Absolutely more that I was not processed driven at all. And I've had to, that's something that has, I've had to teach myself to get in that mindset as far as like, is this going to be a repeatable, you know, task? And I think that, I mean, one thing I am pretty particular about how things are done. And so I've developed those, but that was absolutely not something that I had. Solidified that I had processes written down for they were kind of developed along the way. Right. And yeah, I would say that, I mean, especially with those, those first hires, I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I said them up for failure so hard, but seriously, thankfully, some of them stuck around, you know, you learn as you go. So everybody makes mistakes and I'm no, yeah, no exception to that. Yeah. So, I want to talk about any of those mistakes with some of those early hires or what has it been like building your team up to the, you know, seven plus plus kind of? Yeah. So, I mean, as far as mistakes, geez, I mean, I've made about just every, I mean, we're going to want one of them as far as like hiring, not knowing what to look for and a team member. I would also say, when is it, you know, a coaching or a training objective? When is that a, or opportunity, I should say? And when is it just not a good fit, right? And not knowing that. And I would say like developing as a leader to is something that I would say a lot of small business owners could probably relate to. They're used to, you know, hands on keyboard, doing the actual work and then making that shift as far as working on the business and, you know, versus in the business is tricky. Yeah. Well, you have to be intentional, you know, it's really easy to just do the things. But you do kind of let your staff down when you let them fail and don't do enough about it. Because as you've kind of hinted toward, there's times when coaching will get you right where you want to be. Yeah. Yeah. Have you like written down or identified what some of those things that suggest that somebody's going to be a good fit at Brindle is or not? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, one of the books that I've read and gained a lot of information and insight from is called traction. Have you read that? Yeah. We definitely, it's a strong influence throughout the local universe, if you will. I think probably close to half of our members are at least guided by those principles. Yeah. So we follow the EOS framework and I think, you know, after I read that book, you know, the first time and second time, we aligned to that framework, if you will. And I think it opened my eyes and shed light on, here's, you know, here's some things that we should be doing. And I think as far as, you know, hiring team members too, one of the most important things is making sure that they align with your core values. And that's been huge. So that book has really helped a lot as far as that goes. Well, and some of their, like, just accountability tools and recognizing what the value is, you know, because accountability sounds kind of yucky, a little bit, you know, it sounds like tattling on each other almost or whatever, right? Yeah. But people want to know what they are accountable for. What do they own? What's the, what piece of the pie of this business that has to do all these different things is mine to make sure it gets done really well. Exactly. Yeah. And it's easy to point fingers and blame when those definitions aren't very square. Yeah. Or when, yeah, they don't even exist, right? Totally. Yeah, definitely I've learned a lot about that. And I think too, I mean, being, you know, my background and where I've came from and I didn't come from, you know, corporate America. And I've always worked for smaller businesses, so not having exposure to maybe some of that, I think. Yeah. Actually, that one of my passions or at least areas of interest is bringing corporate escapees into small business because they can, they've got so much training and they've seen systems that work well and have a great impact, but they're sick of their boss not caring who they are at all, right? And so they would take a little pay cut in order to see the impact of their work. Yeah. And so I think that speaks well to your notions there. Yeah. What, where are you in that, because there's the visionary and integrator, are you the, are you the visionary personality, or are you both of those positions right now? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know that I could fit myself in necessarily, you know, one of those buckets. I say I probably overflow into a little bit of both. Okay. I definitely have some qualities of the visionary that I would say are pretty strong, but I'm also, I get shit done as far as I implement as well. So that's, I think that's one of the things that I'm very adamant about is, you know, doing what I'm saying, I'm going to do, getting things implemented, getting things done. So if you're going to bring in an official integrator into your organization, he or she is going to need to be very effective. Correct. Because otherwise you'll be able to perform them in their job, right? Right. Particularly. Yeah. So I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily like just the, you know, ideas person, if you will. So have you taken the rocket fuel test? No. Oh, you should. I think it's just like rocketfuel.com or something. I'm a, I'm a 92 on the visionary scale, 42 or something on the integrator scale. Okay. So I'm tip highly toward the visionary notion. Our mutual friend, Rory was, I want to say like 75 integrators, 65 visionary. So she was stronger in both and definitely much more of a good or done girl than I am sometimes by nature. Gotcha. Yeah. Isn't that a book as well? It is. It's like the, yeah, that's like two or three, number two or three in the series, kind of attraction related books and rocket fuel is the book that's focused on the relationship between the integrator and the visionary. Okay. And how that works best and stuff and how to, yeah, anyway. So, but it's a free test. You know, those spam you relentlessly for getting the results, but, but yeah, it's pretty interesting. I should probably have that website here to mention to everybody. But Google it. You'll find it out there. I was going to say, I'll find it. Yeah. I'll take it. So, yeah. So you're kind of just rolling along and is it slow growth from there? Did you ramp up team right away? It sounds like you've got developers that are part of your special sauce, maybe as far as the back end these elements. Yeah. So as far as growth, I would say, you know, the first year was fairly slow. You know, we, I did hire my first team member and then, yeah, it was two of us for a little while. But then I would say years, two in three, we experienced pretty significant growth within, you know, putting some more efforts into marketing ourselves. SEO has paid off, definitely. And then even, yeah, last year, I mean, I think we had 30% growth year over year. So it's been, you know, pretty steady growth after that. I would say I'm definitely focused on smarter growth. Yeah. I don't want to, you know, my goal isn't to be a 100 person marketing team out there, definitely more quality than I wanted to be. A boutique agency. A boutique agency. A boutique agency. I mean, as people pay more for you, when you follow the boutique, yeah, that's good. Tell me about like finding that niche, was that kind of in that year, two, three kind of thing? Or is that a more recent development? I would say that was in year two, yeah, that was in year two. And really just after I knew that we had to specialize and kind of niche down, then it was the question of, okay, well, we have, you know, 40% of our clients maybe in this bucket, if you will, and another, you know, 60% in this one, which one do I like more, which one do I gravitate towards more? And I mean, if you'd ask me, I'd be like, well, I'm in a market for dog products, but unfortunately, we have nearly two dog product manufacturers here, yeah, exactly. And also just, who do I think we can help the most and, you know, who do we enjoy working with the most? And I think that that's when that decision to, yeah, kind of niche down, like I said, and I think it was about a year and a half or two years in, that's when that had started. So, were they the 60% or the 40% at that time? The 60% I would say. They already were, so they were kind of drawing to you for whatever reason. And let's talk about that special sauce there, like there must be a reason why you found that success within those real estate projects and that kind of thing. Is there, you don't have to tip your hand, let all the other, your competitors know how you do it, but like, is there something that you do better than others in that regard? Sure thing. I think that we brought a, or bring, you know, a fresh approach to the real estate multi-family marketing industry. Yeah. I said, I think there's been a lot of, you know, copy paste as far as it goes in that industry. So, I think that, you know, bringing some of that outside experience, even from other industries and mixing the pot up a little bit, as far as that goes, and we need to be vague. But to get, you know, if you want to get some specific examples, I think one thing, you know, that we've brought it to the industry and also continue to develop is multi-family website themes. And so, I mean, this definitely isn't new to the website world, but as far as the multi-family industry, you know, there's a couple big players as far as software providers, and they offer websites, and they're just very, very templated and cookie cutter looking, and they don't own their data, right? So, they don't own the website if they move away from that software provider. They're starting from ground zero. So, that was where, you know, we saw an opportunity to, you know, create these custom themes and offer them to, you know, developers, owners, third party property managers, and they own the site. So, they switch, which is not that uncommon for them to switch, you know, property management software, and then, you know, they still own their stuff and they can just kind of move along. So, this is kind of like the, your services would create like a custom site and strategy instead of the generic thing that comes with the software that they use to pull credit reports or manage properties or this app, whatever. Exactly. Yep. And then we've also developed a plugin that actually integrates with the software. So, you know, we integrate with all the major players as far as, you know, Yardi rent cafe, you know, real page and Trata. And so, we have tapped into their API and we pull in the live pricing and availability, which is very important to have displayed on, you know, clients website as far as looking for a floor plan or apartment unit. Right. I imagine it's kind of like finding a hotel room or airplane seat or whatever in the end, right? Do you want to, like, this seems like a curtain that I'm not experienced with looking behind at all, but do you want to pull back the curtain on, like, this industry from a 30,000 foot view? Like, there's a lot of big rich owners, right? Like there's not really that many small investors that own these kind of projects or maybe they're part of a group or like, yeah, it's what's a landscape out there. It's interesting, honestly. And I think that that's one thing too that especially if we bring in, you know, new team member that's not had exposure to the multifamily industry that can be somewhat confusing as far as the parties involved and the major, you know, the major players involved. So we work with a number of clients as far as we can work with and partner with the third party property managers themselves. And they may, they may manage and develop and own the property or, you know, some of theirs. And they may also just be third party where they're managing, you know, a hybrid where it's owned by the capitalists. But the service company gets some kind of a revenue script or something to make it worth their effort if they do good job. Correct. Yeah. And then you also have, you know, smaller offices that are smaller investment groups too that they will self manage. And so they'll staff and actually manage, you know, the apartment communities. And so there may be, yeah, an investment group that comes together and they have, you know, a portfolio and whatnot. So it really is kind of, you know, working with the property management groups, the private, even investors. Yeah. And yeah, and different groups too. And building those relationships, we got all the way from, you know, the developer to the investor, the property management groups. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got all different kinds of potential clients that are hiring you. Correct. Yeah. And I mean, it gets interesting when you get into third party property management. And a lot of them have strategic relationships already developed or might even have their own marketing department, depending on, yeah, how large they are not. So you do have to, you know, we've had to do our research as far as who we're targeting and who, you know, we're going after as far as a prospect. Yeah. Yeah. And so is most of your new client acquisition, you're hunting them, you know, of their existence and you got to do some research, figure out who your person is and stuff, or do people find you because they're looking for a marketing agency for their property. Well, most of ours has honestly been inbound through inborn, inborn, inbound efforts as far as SEO, you know, a lot of content marketing and whatnot. We do run campaigns paid ad campaigns on Google and social, but most of it has been either referrals or just that organic SEO, you know, oh, we found you by searching for X, Y, and Z. Do you want to have a boring website for your new project or do you want to have something sexy like this? Exactly. Interesting. Yeah. And we've done, you know, we were involved in some local associations and, you know, specific to the industry. We've done a couple trade shows, COVID kind of put a wrench in that. But yeah. We've done a little bit, a little bit of outreach and a little bit of outbound, outbound, but our strategy has, you know, not been super aggressive as far as that goes. We're coming right up on, at least in Limer County, oh, you guys, you're in Greeley, so you haven't been masking hardly ever necessarily over there. I come from a well county or a math man that is expiring in a couple days. That's right. That's exciting. We like it. Yeah. Talk to me about your team, like, what's the org chart look like? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Sure. And you can say names if you want to. If you want to give shout outs to people that did a really good job this week or whatever, or you can renew an anonymous, that's your prerogative. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, we have an awesome team. You know, we're really, really strong and I have a lot of, I'm excited for 2022 as we head into it in already two months in. We have a senior digital marketing manager and so he leads up and has been a huge asset as far as taking on some of the and freeing me up from some of the, you know, overseeing marketing strategies that we're putting together for clients, keeping a close eye on the campaigns and accounts. I think that's one thing that has made us successful is that, you know, just our approval process and whatnot. So making sure that, you know, we always have a couple of sets of eyes on things because we're all human, right? And so making sure that, yeah, we're kind of coming together, strategizing on that and making sure that clients, you know, meeting their goals. Well, like, we've been testing these two ads. Yeah. This one stinks and this one is working great. But we've been doing this stinky one just as much as the great one for the last four months. So let's stop doing the stinky one. Yeah. What are we doing? Like, let's just do it for a week or a month or whatever, right? Yeah. And I think as far as in the marketing and advertising world, coming to the other and saying, okay, hey, Grace, what do you think about this campaign? I don't know if this one's been doing it as well. What if we try and AB tests some images here or whatnot? So that's always good. And then as far as content creation, I'll kind of group that into a team. We have, yeah, social media managers who are, and oh my gosh, bless our hearts as far as creating content, you know, day in and day out can be tough, right? And copy and finding and sourcing images and whatnot, really, yeah, kind of putting together. Well, and not driving people crazy, right? Because this is, you know, an apartment building or whatever. And so what are you going to say? You can't just say, you're going to love it here. We've got such a great pool, you know, you can't say that 360 times in here. No. You got to have something. In fact, yeah, that's one of my pet peeves is when everybody's like happy, you know, for you know, happy Thanksgiving, that's, that's not even in our vocabulary. Right. What's a, what's a more creative way to say this? Right? Yeah. So yeah, we have our, we have our content team. And then as far as digital ads, so overseeing the campaigns is far in Google ads and in Facebook and in Instagram, specifically, those are the major platforms that we manage. Sure. Optimizing those accounts. Does it like the major platforms anymore, right? Like, that's, yeah. That's what there is. Exactly. It's basically all I could go into Facebook and all the recent challenges that we've had there. But yeah, man. I want to hear about it actually. Yeah, managing, managing those accounts on a weekly and daily basis, just making sure nothing is going haywire is, yeah, it's a full time, full time job, also keeping a close, close eye on budgets as far as client ad spend and whatnot. Do you do stuff with like reviews and stuff like that too? We do not really offer, we have a few legacy clients that we still do like we call it reputation management. Yeah. Yeah. But no, that, that isn't really one of our core services. It seems like it would be important like if you get your tenants to review, hey, it's great living at the commons. Yes. I love it here. Yes. Yes. That would make a big difference for finability. It absolutely does as far as, I mean, especially on the Google, you know, search standpoint as far as getting those reviews on your GMB listing. So talk to me about, if you don't mind, like the, yeah, the Facebook fell off a cliff and now they're like, well, if Europe doesn't let us sell all their customers information, we're just not even going to go there. So there. Right. Right. What's that zoo that, and what's, what's coming, like because it is, as you mentioned, it's kind of like Google, either SEO paid ads, Facebook, Instagram, which is both together with meta. Right. It's kind of, but LinkedIn is overpriced and sucks for most things from an advertising standpoint. LinkedIn is tough. I will say that. I mean, then there's TikTok who, I would say, has a quarter of an ad platform as far as, you know, we have tested it to you. It presents its own challenges and whatnot. And then, yeah, and Google ads, I mean, all of the platforms watching them evolve and change over the years. And I mean, I think even Google is, is trying to, you know, take away some of the control that the advertiser has as far as optimizing it on our end. And then Facebook has, you know, probably became one of, you know, the ones who are team behind the scenes is probably cursing, you know, half the time as far as what it is going on with this campaign, iOS 14 update. Right. I've heard about that. Right. So that, that completely, I would say, like, has, I mean, even if you- That's like a battle between Apple and Facebook, right? It is. Yeah. And if you, I mean, if you Google iOS 14 and Facebook ads and whatnot, I mean, it has made it extremely hard to measure results, which, you know, and you take that away from the marketer and you're like, well, what, yeah, is this converting still? What's our return on ad spend, you know, what's our row as? And then just, just recently, I think it's March, March 14th, you know, there, there are more and more special audiences that are being grouped into, you know, special category and whatnot, sensitive subjects that you'll no longer be able to target. And it's interesting too, as far as what they consider, you know, a special audience and who you can and can't target anymore and put into that group. Talk about that. Yeah. So, for example, I mean, what, well, housing too has its own, oh, right, I mean, and housing is a whole, whole other beast we can, you know, no longer, you used to be able to, but you can no longer target by, by age or, oh, really? Yeah. Yep. And then it's so dumb. Like I was thinking to myself when you were talking about finding your niche and stuff, like these kind of disconnected from their ultimate consumer companies that hire you because they're like old rich white guys and they're renting to 20 something college students or just got out of college people and there are millennials and that's part of the vibe that you bring is, well, I might not be as young as these people that are your clients, but we know how to talk to these people better than you do. Well, and I mean, there is, there's something to be said for fair housing and I totally get that, but at the same time, and a lot of people may say, well, this is positive for, you know, the consumer, this is positive for the users of the platforms, but at the same time, like you got to think about the other side as far as you might be now getting served information, you know, or ads served ads that are not even relevant to you. And so what, and I'm sure that you found things through ads and through, you know, discover things that you appreciate. I love it when I talk about something and then Amazon serves me up and add for that, like a minute later. Yeah. Retargeting is awesome. So I think that that has been a huge challenge for us, for, yeah, especially, you know, our team that's managing the accounts from the day to day. And it's also contrary to what people kind of want, right? Like if you're an apartment complex and you're targeting the 20-something audience and you've got, you know, once a month, we have a keg on in the central lounge or a pool party, you know, the 70-something that's looking for their kind of later life apartment solution, they don't want to live there. They want to live in the flats at the, yeah, whatever. Exactly. Exactly. And there are some exceptions when you're actually, you know, classified as student housing or as senior housing and whatnot. But yeah, as far as, I mean, it's gone so far. Then you have to be that, then you have to be that and just that. Right. Right. Even though, you know, this one may not be classified as student housing, but 90% of their residents are. Right. And so every 40-something family that's transitioning in a weird spot that comes to look at this apartment and then gets here and is like, this looks like it's pretty much students. Yeah. Yeah. And so you wasted their time. Yeah. Exactly. And the other thing that you have to, you know, be really careful of is, you know, with fair housing is putting the, even the images that you put on your site, you know, you can't be discriminatory against, you know, one age group or, you know, religion or race or even family type. Yeah. And so if, you know, they see that you're not. You got to mix in the token black person or whatever in your adverts. They're pretty, yeah. Yeah. Greely is pretty white bread and some Hispanic. It is. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah. I digress. But yeah, that's pretty interesting. Well, and it feels like a heavy responsibility to shoulder as the marketing agency for somebody else's chores and stuff. And you got to keep them out of trouble more than anything. Right. Because they're saying it. You might be saying it, but they're saying it. Yeah. We have to be. Yeah. And that's where we take, you know, even our team members through training as far as fair housing, inclusive language, you know, things to avoid. And I'm sure that, you know, realtors could talk all day about this too. And there's such a great area too as far as things that you can say and things that you cannot. I mean, I was on a recent, you know, attending a recent conference online and they had an attorney and it was, it was even he was stumbling around like, well, can we say walk in closet anymore or can we say, you know, master bedroom is like, well, maybe you should avoid master bedroom, but you have to think about like, would a person be offended if you say walk in closet? And I mean, personally, you come out of the closet because we have a walk in closet. Yeah. So it's. Interesting. Yeah. I was, yeah, I'm terrible sometimes and I probably shouldn't mention this. And I was thinking like, hey, happy Martin Luther King Day, we're trying to increase our diversity at 830 North, you know, so come on and apply. We got one with free, you know, for colored applicants. Yeah. Yeah. But you can't do that either. You can't do that. In fact, and I think someone got, you know, in troubles, so to speak, or got their hands slapped as far as targeting specific neighborhoods. So, you know, it, and now I think Facebook has expanded, you know, you can only target like a 15 mile radius, which is huge for some. And yeah, you can't target certain neighborhoods. If you know, like that's where you're, you know, demographic, well, if you know Northwest Fort Collins has a lot of rentals and stuff like that and maybe some of them people that are living in crappy old houses would rather live in a sweet apartment with the school. Yeah. Yeah. But you can't do that. Right. Interesting. So, where is it, like, not to call your future scope into call here, but where's it go? Like, it's so funny to me, like, I've been around a lot longer and, you know, yellow pages and newspaper ads and stuff like that, we're all kind of the thing. We used to have a joke back in the day that, you know, 50% of all marketing dollars are wasted. The problem is it's just impossible to know which 50% and it sounds like we're kind of going back to that because we kind of first got into digital marketing. It was like, Oh, but now you can actually see when things work and do them more and you can stop doing. But now it sounds like it's taking some of that awareness away. I would agree. I would agree. And if I were to predict, I mean, just with what we know what's coming with, I mean, some of the Facebook changes and whatnot, I think that it's only going to get, you know, to be a rockier road as far as and targeting capabilities stripped away, you know, letting the advertiser, you know, kind of, you know, relinquish some of that control to the platforms. I would say that that's definitely the way that we're seeing things trend. And yeah, unfortunately, it's hard to, as far as, you know, like you said, back in the old days, as far as, you know, with print, you're like, Well, I don't know what the results were, we could put a tracking number on it and whatnot, but yeah, so I, and we're already seeing that in some of our reports. And I think every marketer, you know, who's being transparent, I would agree that it has gotten harder in the last year to figure out what, what are the results and some of these are missing? What's the specific ROI on this campaign? Correct. That kind of thing. Yeah. And, and the customer experience is getting worse too, right, because I'm getting a whole bunch more ads that aren't as relevant to me. Now the, the conspiracy theorist Libertarian in me is like, well, good, they shouldn't be tracking all that stuff so much anyway, but you know, they're tracking it. They're just not releasing it, probably. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And again, there's, there's marketers out there who, you know, are, yeah, not good marketers. We'd like to talk about them. Yeah. But yeah, to actually serve ads that are relevant to you, I mean, that's really all we're trying to, to do is make sure that yeah, we're serving these ads and getting results for the clients too and versus this, yeah, blanket kind of shotgun approach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were going to do some thinking about like if you were going to do a primer on something marketing related, you know, thought bubble for listeners that they would come away from this podcast and be like, well, that was a really interesting business journey, but, but I also really learned some important things about this and that. Is that, is this a good time to transition into that? Yeah. We can transition to that. I think one of the things that I was, you know, one of the ideas I threw around was what are, what are some of these things that as a business owner, you should focus on or that you could do that would pay off long term. Kind of like that blog that still gets 15,000 hits a month, even though you build it when you were still in food and restaurants 15 years ago. Yeah, exactly. So, I think one thing and especially now that you're seeing how advertising platforms are evolving, how the world is evolving, I think that just owning your data is more important than ever. And what I mean by that is like owning your email list, your audience list, and I always tell people this too, as far as that's why you need a website also, you can't, you know, so people will be like, well, I have a Facebook page, well, that Facebook goes away. You no longer have your fans, you no longer have, yeah, that presence. And so you're really relying on Facebook. So it's like as far as investment in your business, having a website, having that online presence, that's your hub. Yeah, and CRM of some sort, so you know who your customers are, and collecting as much as far as analytics and data that you can. And really focusing on SEO, I would say that that is, if I were to give a tip or something and say that that was, that's where you need to invest for long term growth. So what's that mean to like, I know there's all different kinds of SEO optimization strategies and you can, you can write a blog, you can have backlinks and things like that. And as I assume it's all different for different kinds of businesses, you know, a retail shoe store is going to be different than a service business that cleans houses or whatever. Talk to me about like maybe the principles. Yeah. So SEO or search engine optimization, I think there's two different approaches you can take as far as a local SEO strategy, which is what we're working with most of the time. And so when we say local, we're talking about searches that may have key words such as Fort Collins in them. So I'm looking for, you know, apartment in old town Fort Collins. Right. So we're going to optimize, you know, most of what we do is onsite optimization as far as making sure that the content on their site is telling Google, hey, this is an apartment in old town Fort Collins. Yeah. That's a joke I heard recently. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. Let's see. Let's see. Oh, SEO strategists walked into a bar, bars, tavern, lounge, you know, use every word to try to be close to whatever you get this website that's got all this junk on there. And so that's one of my challenges, even with my own marketing agency. It's like, do we really have to write, you know, executive coaching? Because we're not executive coaching. It's like, well, but people want to find you when they're looking for executive coaching, because your thing is different, better, maybe. Yeah. I mean, keyword stuffing, as we'll call it, I think that the search engines are definitely getting smarter. And, you know, it's less, so that was, you know, a few, yeah, as far as five years ago, I was like, yeah, you go on every website that's number one on Google, right? And it's like, we are, yeah, let's just use like bar and old town, bar and old town come visit. Yes. We are a bar and old town. Wouldn't you like to see this tavern bar and old town? Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, trust me, that's, there's still a little bit of that struggle and that balance of, well, we want to rank well on search and on the Google, you know, map pack and whatnot. But also, we want our site to be beautiful. Right. And save normal words. Exactly. So does that come within, like, blogs and actually creating content? Yeah. So content is, is king. Is it sounds like you have some experience with blogging? It's definitely a way, I would say we don't recommend it for every business. What are you going to blog about at your apartment necessarily? Yeah, exactly. But I mean, there's, in it, improving your search engine presence is kind of like, how do you improve my credit score? Right? It's not like this straight forward. You know, here's this silver bullet. Push this button and it will go up 10 points kind of thing. Exactly. I wish. But you can charge as much then. Right. Right. And it's definitely a long-term game as far as it takes some time to build up those rankings and keywords and whatnot. And I'm, I definitely fall in the quality over quantity camp from an SEO standpoint. So I like to think about, you know, what is going to be the business objective of your SEO strategy? Are you, are you just looking for traffic and you're just trying to go viral? Right. Because we can get you traffic. But are those visitors ever going to turn into customers or clients or residents, right? And then at that point, I would say, and some people may disagree, what's the point? Right. Now, I will say this so that people don't think I'm, you know, completely off my rocker, that yes, you're going to show, you know, by generating traffic on your site, you're showing Google that you are more popular. So there's that side of it. But I also tend to fall in, well, you know, if you have, yeah, you're just generating traffic to generate traffic and volume. It's nice to show your customer, though, look at all this traffic we're generating with this campaign. And meanwhile, they haven't got any applications from that campaign. They're like, cool. Yeah. We, our sales aren't up. Or, yeah, our residents are up. Well, I think, I always think about it as it relates to my business, of course. And like, I would definitely rather have 10 people that are curious, that are business owners that are curious about what peer advisory really is, that 100 random people, yeah, maybe even more than 1,000 random people, you know, because only one in 100 people maybe could be my customer. Right. Yeah. Or something. And so it's like, yeah, what do you want? What counts? Conversions? Mm-hmm. I'd much rather have that. That's the strain. We'll get into this maybe some later, like faith family politics. But the ethical pressure on marketing agencies is probably about as high as almost any business. Because the less hard you work, the more margin you have, almost to a certain extent, you know, you can show your customers, hey, look at this report of all this website traffic I got you. But only you know that that's garbage traffic, maybe depending on the sophistication of your customer and stuff. And so there's all this temptation, almost to like underserved the client, because that's how the business, short run, that's how the business performs well. So like, do you have like ethical rules of engagement that you really transmit to your team and your clients and things like that, or talk to me about navigating that bridge, if you will? Yeah. And marketing agencies do get, you know, kind of a bad rap as far as that goes. And as far as one, you know, one of my many pepies I hate when, you know, they'll refer to these random stats that mean nothing or that you need more context to understand. One thing that we really pride ourselves on is, is being transparent with the client. And we, we pull monthly reports. And not every month is going to be up. We're also, you know, competing against ourselves. And so it's important to look at numbers in, you know, maybe a few different time frames or lenses. For three months, stops working in month four and you better figure out some new stuff that works in month five. Yeah. And so it's not always going to be this upward progression and we're not always going to beat ourselves per se. So I like to, we also spend a lot of time, you know, educating the client on here's what these numbers mean. But we try, we make a lot of effort to put them in layman's terms so that we're not just throwing out these, you know, random, oh, you had a, you know, 56% increase in your conversion or eight in your cost per conversion, you know, came down and they're like, okay, what does that mean? Right. And so we try to, yeah, one, depending on their level of knowledge within, you know, the marketing field, try to put that in translated into terms that makes sense for them. So hey, you know, Mr. Client, you got 23, you know, leads, leads last week, right? Or as we call them conversions, these are people that made a phone call or filled out the form on your website, you know, and, and then always ask yourself, you know, is that good? Right. Right. That may not mean nothing to them, right? So we did this and here was your average cost per lead. This is good because the average, you know, cost in your industry is X. Right. Right. And so giving them and educating them as marketers, I think is part of our job to make sure that they have that and really understand. And if we sell the cost, you know, per conversion go up. Right. Well, you know, that's where we are diving into the numbers and trying to figure out, it was there what happened here, you know, are we still tracking, making sure that we didn't lose connection somewhere? Yeah. Or was there some type of anomaly, right? Right. Well, the prices change all the time for some of these adwords and stuff too. You know, so what was a screaming deal, although suddenly becomes too expensive to pay that much for it? Right. I'm a small business, let's say a dog adoption agency that's been going for a little while. You know, I've got some revenues. I've got some stuff going on, but I don't yet have enough to really engage with a marketing agency. What can I do as the owner or the founder of that to increase my SEO to, you know, I know I'm going to own my content, have my website, things like that. Should I do Google AdWords for myself? How can I figure that stuff out like, give me the, give me the do it yourself kind of marketing. Sure. Good question. I think there are a number of things that you can do that are more at the grassroots level, as far as advertising on, you know, launching your own paid ad campaigns, I would probably recommend staying away, stay away from that. There are, yeah, there's a lot that, there really is a lot that goes into it as far as campaign and account structure. And if you just start playing around, I feel like you're going to, you know, throw your money out the window, especially now, so avoid the temptation of the, you know, Google you get $100 free email, ignore it, yeah, ignore it. There's no such thing as free money. So what I would say is, you know, one, let's say you have your website, you're just getting, you know, started, I would say one, you know, get involved in, get involved in the community, join some networking groups, you know, join the chamber, just get you, you know, that's one. That's for real. That is one, yeah, one element of in real life, if you will. And then claim, claim your Google, my business listing, you wouldn't be, you'd be surprised how many people do not own their Google, my business listing. So go to business.google.com, claim that, fill out every, fill out your hours, all that kind of stuff, put a picture, exactly, I got a picture of my old office location still on my Google, my business, it's really kind of bothering me, but yeah, yeah, go update that, fill out the description, use all, you know, 750 characters that you can, put some keywords in there, yeah, fill that out to its max capacity, optimize it if you will. And then also as far as social media, don't feel like you have to be on every platform. It's overwhelming. I get it. I personally, yeah, I'm like in a love hate relationship with, with social media. So find a couple platforms that where your target audience is spending their time and then make social social, right? Like it doesn't have to be always salesy, you know, showcase your company, your culture, what you do, yeah, that, you know, 30% of the time you can, you know, promote your services but in an organic way, like educate people, provide value, I would say provide value over anything. And sometimes that's entertainment, something fun or clever or cat videos, or yeah, no cat video fun. No cat videos. Yeah, I don't know. It's good. It's really good. Exactly. That would, that would be one thing as a, I think that people get sold to a lot and if you just want to be social, let's just be social, you know, at least you'll learn that I have this restaurant or this dog rescue. Yeah, that's what people are on there for, right? As far as, yeah, and then there's a way that you can do it and then they get curious and we'll click over to your profile and say, what do you do, right? And can learn more about your business and that at that point. So I would say, yeah, post on post on social, engage with other local, you know, if you're going for a local presence, engage with other local businesses on social, comment and share on their stuff, be authentic, right? I think that that goes a long ways, especially in today's world. And then if, you know, research SEO, watch, you know, listen to a couple podcasts on it, learn about it. There are things that you could do, especially if, you know, you have maybe a WordPress site or something like that. You can install a plugin to optimize this, you know, the site yourself. I would say, pick a target keyword for your homepage and figure out what would you search one? I guess, like, look at what would you search if you were looking for your own services or product? Right. And then one of the best keyword tools out there is Google itself. Yeah. You know, go to Google, start, if you start typing in the search bar, it is going to tell you what people are searching. Yeah. And I've seen people use the, what you call it, the secret style Google, right? Yeah. Whatever mode. Incognito. Incognito. So that it doesn't remember your previous searches and whatever and corrupt the data that way. Yeah. Exactly. So you can go incognito and yeah, as soon as you start typing in, let's just say, you know, like, dog rescue, there are going to be some words that come after that. Those are going to be, yeah, oh, right. Yeah. So, or if you're typing in, like, let's just see, I don't know, IT company, you know, or like Fort Collins, IT, and then what comes after that, right? Right. Is it managed services or is it IT? Oh, it's a suggestion kind of thing. Yeah. So, and then populate, yeah, your homepage and your SEO plugin with that content, you know, if you, if you listen to a couple things, I think that you could, you know, somewhat get there. And then also blogging, I would say, it depends on, again, the, the business, but if you got a bloggable topic, if you have, yeah, if you have that, put out that content, put out, again, I think I would recommend putting out something of value, especially if you're the subject matter expert on it. And don't worry at that point about optimizing it for SEO, like, just, just go ahead and write a blog post and then share it on your socials and share it on your, you can post on Google weekly. So, share that content out there. So, I would say, yeah, those are, those are a few tips. Awesome. I think a lot of our listeners will get some value out of those. Let's roll into the closing segments. Sounds good. Do you want to start with the faith family or politics? Let's dive into politics. Ooh. So fun. Oh, I, by the way, when you were talking about the search thing on Google, I was a couple days late to learning about the trucker convoy thing because I was just apparently not looking at the back channels enough, but I typed in Canadian, trucker, and like, C-O-N before it finally, like, folded in convoy because I think was intentionally repressing my interest in that topic. Yeah. Well, and that's a perfect, I think, segue into politics because I feel like, you know, with social algorithms and whatnot, I feel like, you know, you can 100% convince yourself and be reassured from the media sources themselves, you know, to kind of validate your own truth. Totally. I only get served up conspiracy left wing, or not right wing libertarian crap anymore. Yes. Yeah. Good. How could I ever change my mind? I was just being reaffirmed all the time. I know who you are, and they are going to reassure you and feed you. Totally. That content. So, I think that, you know, so what do we do about that? Right. It's a million dollar question, right? I think that it's very important to, you know, kind of look at both sides, if you will, as far as, you know, Republican or Democrat. And when it comes to hot topics and, you know, things that are going on in our world right now, I think that there's, I feel like we're more divided than ever. Totally. And actually, I'm actually very intentional of getting a range of inputs for most topics because I don't trust none of those sons of guns I'm a libertarian. Like I said, so, I trust Fox or CNN. Equally. I was going to say, and I agree with you there. In fact, I've pretty much stepped away from the media, especially when COVID was going on. I couldn't even, you know, stand what was being put out there. And, you know, if you will, I feel like some of it was a lot of scare tactics and this, oh my gosh, you know, and now two years later, we're like over it, right? Right. Everyone's over it. And it's the same thing the whole time. It is. It really is. I know, a little bit less scary or whatever, but for me and you, it's basically the same shit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that it's hard because, I mean, I definitely have my views and I keep those pretty close. I'm a Luke Meyer. If you know anything about us, like we don't even know when our own family is going on vacation. No, I'm just. Have you watched the Long Mire series, by the way? No. Oh, the Long Mire series is about a Wyoming. I've heard about it. Oh, you should watch Long Mire, for sure. I mean, it's like a, it's like a new age cowboy western kind of thing, but, yeah, like Yellowstone. Like Yellowstone. Okay. Different. Better in some ways. It's like less drama. More real. Okay. I mean, I already kind of like it because it sounds a little bit like listening. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to take you off track. No, you're fine. I was going to say I do have my views. I tend to keep those, you know, pretty, pretty close. I think that. So I guess is that your encouragement, like try to get information from outside of your echo chamber? Yeah. I would say so. And I think it's really, it gets really hard to because I've seen where, you know, maybe someone's trying to convince another, you know, party of like, here's what I believe in what not. And you're never going to convince that person. Right. Right. I think they're, come on. Yeah. As far as what I've seen. You can't make people change their mind. You can't make it. They can only change their own mind. And it's really slow. Right. Right. I think that it's important to note, yeah, that like not all Republicans, you know, believe X or not all Democrats believe, you know, Y and whatnot. So I spent, and I think COVID's brought that out more than ever. It's like, well, if you're not wearing your mask, then you must be Republican. Right. That's a pretty big assumption, I think, you know. So yeah, I mean, on some issues, I, I definitely, you know, swayed to the right and others to the left. And so... A little closet libertarian too. Isn't everyone maybe a little bit? Pretty much. Yeah. No, I think it's like 55% of the country is kind of closet libertarians. They're just afraid of being called stupid by the rest of the major party kids. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. Um, so that's fair enough. I'll, uh, it was interesting, like being a younger person, female from Greeley. You know, you could be shy because you're like a little bit more left leading than most of my customers and all the rest of the people. Or you could be like, well, but I'm actually I'm supposed to be, uh, I'm not going to ask you, I'm not going to put you on the spot, but it's, uh, I still don't know, which is an interesting thing, uh, sitting across the table from you. You can tell me later. So good. A lot of the conversation. A lot of the issues offline. Do you want to talk about issues in the political realm at all, like current events or anything? Uh, as far as, you know, I don't know. It's like a convoy. No. Uh, but like there's a lot of stuff going on right now, right? There's a lot of national school, but a local school, but you know, the Colorado governor election is coming up this fall. Yeah. I mean, and there's a lot. And like I said, I, I mean, typically I try to stay, um, you know, objective and, and focus, focus less on like an individual per se and more on the issue at policy. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. There's a lot going on in. How's local politics and Greeley? Like what's going on over there? It's always like break out the popcorn. Oh, so like what's going on? No. I'm just up to speed. Um, I mean, I would, I guess I'm more referring to things back in, you know, maybe a year, year and a half ago, especially, um, that with, and maybe I really like was the one part of Nebraska or whatever or, you know, like it was so weird. Yeah. Going to Greeley from, you know, super locked down for Collins and, and then you go to Greeley. And that's been one of the, and I guess this is politics or public health or whatever, but if you look at Weldon-Larmer counties, the actual progression of the disease and the rates and this community spread and stuff, it's pretty same. Yeah. Pretty much the whole time. Yeah. Well, and I think even, I mean, even coming from, you know, wild county, we recently moved to, uh, Windsor, we're still in the wild. And so if we would come over, we're like, oh, oh, shoot. Yeah. Don't be forgotten. Right. Well, and Windsor for a while was very bipolar. Like a third or something of the businesses were very masky and very, and the other ones were, like, don't wear your mask and hear cowboy. Right. So you're like, you had to like walk in with your mask ready to put out and then like quickly stick in your pockets with nobody judged you or quickly put it on before somebody judged you. Yeah. Exactly. Windsor was definitely a bipolar community. Yeah. I was going to say some of it was, it was definitely on the fence. And yeah, I mean, we went to, oh my gosh, we went to Boulder. I would say, I mean, I was like when, I, Fort Collins definitely didn't have a mask bandaid at that point, you know, that small period of time. Right. And I mean, every, it was like a completely different, different world in Boulder. Totally. As far as, yeah, you're wearing your mask and you're walking down the sidewalk. I bet the number of people from Greeley that went and visited Boulder really went down for a while. I was like, wow, I'm really a country bumpkin over here. Right. All right. We could, we could move around. Talk about your family. So like I said, my family's always been pretty, pretty close. Definitely value family. We've all been in the Colorado area. And in fact, yeah, up until recently when we moved to Windsor, I lived within, you know, mile of my grandfather and my dad. And then my mom recently moved back to Colorado too. My brother, he is in the Air Force. And so he's overseas actually in Spain. We're trying to make it out there to visit. He didn't go to Ukraine. No. Right. Pretty good. Yeah, yeah. He's in the chair force as he calls it. Paper pusher more than a, more than a handle steer or thing. Not gonna be on the front lines. Fair enough. That's for sure. So yeah, as far as my family, yeah, we grew up, my parents split when I was 14, I would say. That was definitely rough. I think that, you know, I won't downplay the impact that that can have on kids. Yeah. Yeah. Do they both, like, remarry or anything? Like, you went to Minnesota right after high school, right? Yeah, a couple years in the college. My mom did, yep, my mom remarried. She has since been divorced for a second time. And then my dad remarried as well. He is, yeah, still married. And I have an awesome step mom. And like I said, they're living in Greeley. Yeah. Yeah. And brother, like, what would you tell me about him? Like, I was hiding from the fact that he's an air force and that he was, you were right more than he was back when you were young. Yeah. No, my brother and I are pretty close as far as, you know, as close as Luke Myers can be. Fair enough. It's a little bit, like, long my right there in Cheyenne, too, actually, fair enough. But no, and he has three kids. He's definitely, you know, beat me in the loop. Yeah, he has his three kids and a beautiful wife and they live in Spain. So he's been in their force. He's moved to, let's see, he went from, we went from Minnesota to California. And then now to Rota, Spain, live in the rough life on the beach. Yeah. And you are married and acquired a couple of littles with that transaction. That's correct. Yep. Do you want to tell me about them? And one of the things I'd like to do is one word description of the children, or in this case, the stepkits or adopted stepkits. I know. It sounds crazy to say. And it's not adopted because their mom would probably have a prostate. Right. Yeah. So, and it's kind of funny, too, because Randy, my husband and I have known each other since we were 16. Oh, wow. Yeah, come back. High school fling, rekindled. Full circle. Yeah, we actually, we worked together and dated for, you know, a hot, like, you know, 15 minutes back in the day. Interesting. Yeah. And, yeah, two, so he has two kids from a previous marriage. And so they're with us every, every other weekend. They are eight and 13. Okay. So, but they're, they're, they're, they're really good kids. You know, the girl she has so much personality. You want to give her a name? Kylie. Yeah. And a, and a one word description. Oh. One word description. But she'll like when she hears it. Right. By your cracker. Perfect. I like it. Yeah. And your boy. He is 13. Oh, that's one word description, huh? I would say chill. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. How about Randy? You want to give him a one word description? Oh. Or tell me, tell me why, why he fell back in love with you when you guys got back acquainted or vice versa. What, what helped you fall in love with him? Yeah. So, I mean, it's kind of, if you would have asked or told me, you know, when I was, let's see, 16 or 17 or however old. I was, you know, when we first, uh, I guess I'd dated for that brief stint. I would have told you you were crazy that I was going to marry him when, you know, I got old. And when I grew up, but, uh, yeah, it was an interesting story. And actually, I think we always had mutual friends and had a friend group. And so when I, you know, a couple of years after I had moved back to Colorado, we reconnected. And then it was kind of, you know, that was the end of the story. Yeah. So, all right. Yeah. Well, uh, like what would he say was like just because he, you're familiar? That just seems like a nut. No, definitely not. What was it that drew you? Obviously, he'd been, I guess, divorced and not a relationship for a while. And was, you know, looking around for the pretty girls that were still not attached. Yeah. Yeah. So he, I mean, yeah, he got involved and married young and whatnot. Yeah, it's sad that that did not work out. But I think everything, you know, happens for a reason. And we, I think we had a lot in common. As you get older, you learn that, no, maybe it's not the jerk that, you know, the hot guy that, you know, you're always like, oh, yeah, he's great. And Randy was always kind of the nice guy that finished last, if he will. And I don't mean that in a bad way at all. Yeah. But he, you know, is we're super aligned when it comes to values and kind of back to, you know, who you hire and whatnot as far as aligning to your values. I think that that's super important in a partner is finding somebody that has similar values and whatnot. So I think that that's where, you know, when we went out and reconnected was that we really just had good conversation. Yeah. Truly. And I think that having that in a partner means so much, you know, you don't have to have the same hobbies and you don't have to have the same, you know. Yeah, my wife and I are totally different type. I'm very not detail oriented. You know, she doesn't have many wild ideas or things like that. But her values in mind are very well aligned. Aligned. Like, and they always have been. And so that's where that, like, that differentness is exciting. But that values misalignment can really send you off course. I would say absolutely in the long term. Yeah. You need to make sure you're aligned there. And yeah, we're, we're, I would say not complete opposites, but there's a lot where we are opposites. I mean, he's very, very analytical and data driven. And I'm more, you know, my gut says this. Yeah. What are you doing that? I feel like it. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Politics, family, faith. Yeah. Talking about faith. So faith. I mean, I grew up in a Christian family. You know, we always attended church. We went to a local Presbyterian church in Greeley. You know, I went through my phases as a teenager and stuff that I would say where I was, you know, questioning. Run far away. Questioning my faith, right? But no, I mean, again, with, with being transparent, but not oversharing, I think that, you know, we're, you know, Christian and still attend a local, you know, non-denomination church. Not as much as we should, but you do kind of thing. Exactly. And recently, we know, and this is Randy L3. You're under the bus here. You know, he's kind of like, why do we have to go in person when we can watch them online? Yeah. I don't know how to get my pet jam a pants off that way. So she'll say that to be just like two weeks ago, she didn't really want to get out for church. Yeah. So, but no, it is great because if we don't feel like going in person, then we can, you know, just stream it. Do you want to give a shout out to the church at U10? We actually stream a couple different, and depending on the message, we'll kind of, you know, go to their, go to their YouTube channel and select. We have been streaming either, you know, foundations or Christ community. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm very familiar with foundations. I'm not with Christ community. Okay. Yeah. Pastor Alan there has some really great messages. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. Did you decide upon your local experience? I mean, do you want to say more about faith, I guess? Like, the next question? No. Okay. All right. The local experience. Like, what's that crazy moment or experience or year or whatever that really shaped or changed the way you approach things or, or maybe it's a great story. I was going to say, I don't know if it's maybe shaping. Whatever. Yeah. It's just a crazy story. We've got four. Yeah. And I was trying to think about this. I said, the crazy, you know, a crazy experience in my life. Well, I've probably had quite a few of them. And I would say, I'll break that down into a couple of things that came to mind. One was crazy and one more frightening. Okay. The crazy. I mean, I definitely had, you know, my couple parties that I attended in college and whatnot. One of which, we actually crammed probably, and this was in Fort Collins. We probably crammed 150 people into this one bedroom apartment. Oh, shoot. Yeah. Well, we were on the second story. So I don't know if you can know where this is going. But it was probably like, you know, 30 minutes into, like, probably a blink 182 song or something like that. Right, right. And the floor cave then. Oh, my. Yeah. The entire experience. I haven't experienced that at all. Yeah. Can you imagine? So the carpet, the carpet actually stretched and caught, you know, everyone. Where do people downstairs? Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. You know, everyone scattered, of course. And some people that were in the middle of the floor were like, you know, hanging on by the carpet. Right. Was this your party? Are you just attending? No, I was just attending. Oh, but yeah. So they get to like jump around and then all of a sudden the floor just goes. They're just, yeah, completely caves in. And I will never forget that because it was like, oh, my God. Was so James Bond or Die Hard or whatever, right? You just couldn't imagine it. I was like, did this just happen? But now that you know so much more about real estate and stuff, you're like, well, duh. You can't stuff 100 people into a one bedroom apartment and have a dance. Exactly. And I cannot even imagine. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, let's just say that that individual was probably not getting his deposit back. Right. That's pretty good. Yeah. So that was, that was pretty crazy. And then the second one. And I mean, yeah, thankfully we're both still alive. But my brother and I got in a pretty bad motorcycle accident out in California. Okay. And so that was more. When you, when he was there at Air Force Base. Yeah. And so he's like, hey, check out my new crash rocket. Check out my new crash rocket. And so we, yeah, we did. And I mean, you leave the Air Force Base and you had to be in full, you know, sweatshirt, and or leather's, right? High top boots, helmet and whatnot. Right. So Vests on even, I think, like reflective vest. And he was super safe. I mean, knowing that his sister was on back. So it wasn't like, you know, probably 18-year-old Sarah writing a, you know, on the back of your boyfriend's bike or something. Yeah. So we were just cruising along the highway and went to exit. And all of a sudden, I look over in the car that was next to us just decided that she was going to turn right into our lane. And yeah, it just ran into the side of us. And that's when the bike, yeah, if you can see my hand right now. Yeah, so the bike just, I mean, when, yeah. And so I've fell on that, kind of, slid out underneath it and then managed to, yeah, skid into the curb. He was tumble barrel rolling until. Yeah, I was knocked on, on conscious. So I don't remember anything, but no broken bones. Well, I broke my helmet and then, yeah, the paramedics were just saying, you know, how lucky you were. Yeah. So my brother, he, uh, he actually burst his spleen, which we didn't know until about an hour into my, you know, ER visit and cat scan and whatnot. And all of a sudden, he just kind of went white and fell over. So not to bring this podcast story down. Yeah. But it turned out okay. Yeah. It was okay. And like, how fast were you going when you got bumped? We were only going about 35. So we were on the exit ramp. So that, that was good. Oh my gosh, he can't say the same would have happened if we were to go on 70 on the highway. Right. You know, it just scares me to this day to see motorcyclists. You ride. I do not. Would you? No. No. I'm a rider. And one of the things I like to say is, uh, it's more fun to ride a slow motorcycle fast than it is a fast motorcycle slow. Yeah. Because of that, you know, if, if you've got kind of an old slow motorcycle and you're going 50 up puter canyon and having an old motorcycle, you're going to have a canyon and having a good time and kind of pushing it to its 75th percentile limits and stuff. And if you crash, you're probably going to be okay if you're wearing good gear and a helmet. Yeah. But if you've got a high end motorcycle and you're going 100 and you crash, you're just probably dead. Right. Yeah. So it's, it's scary. And I'm definitely, I'm not one of those people that would typically, you know, fall enough horses a thousand times and, you know, you just get back on and that's what you do. But the motorcycle, I would say, yeah, it's scared. It's scared the life out of me. Probably forever. Yeah. Okay. Well, I will not for you a motorcycle opportunity anytime. Right. Um, I guess tell people how to find brindle digital, especially if you are a multi family. That's right. Investor or property manager, things like that. But also if you just want to know more or want to try to be one of those 20% of clients that aren't that. But I was going to say, yeah, if it's, if it's a good fit and we feel like, yeah, we can help somebody else out of the multi family industry. We kind of evaluate that on a case by case. Yeah. So yeah, you can learn more about brindle and our team on brindleddigital.com and all the socials that brindle digital. You got them all. You don't have to do any at the brindle digital or not. It's all at brindle digital. But yeah, no, I think we have them all pretty consistent. Yeah. Anything else that you would like to share for the good of the order? I think that's a wrap. That's a wrap. All right. Thank you. You