EXPERIENCE 39 | Talking Bourbon and Business with Mike Root, Founder of Copper Sky Distillery

Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast with LOCO Think Tank Founder Kurt Bear. Listen in as Kurt digs deep into the business and life stories of business owners and thought leaders at different stages of growth from all walks of life. Launching and growing anything can be a crazy experience, so expand your thinking and level up your understanding of what it takes to find success in the world of free enterprise. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear. And today I'm joined by Mike Root and Mike is the founder of CopperSky Distillery. He's also the founder of Axiom Consulting Group and the Kingdom Advancement Project. And Mike, let's just start with CopperSky Distillery. That's where you spend your most time, is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Well, what's a day in the life? A week in the life of Mike looked like these days. First things were happening, I appreciate it. Yeah, so a week in the life, it's funny because I think when I first met you when you were at the Distillery, I brought up my calendar. It looks like a Christmas tree life festival. And that's usually when I tell people when they're like, hey, you know, do you have time to hang out? I immediately go to my phone, like my calendar is like all the different colors. I don't actually have time for you today. I'm so sorry. So my calendar books up pretty quickly just with all the Kingdom projects that I have going on, mostly CopperSky and some of the other different things. But it's fun because I'll wake up and have a link in my email. People can actually just get on my calendar. So I'll wake up and there's new things every day. I'm like, oh man, so it's kind of exciting because generally I know some of the big things, like if I put something on there, but there's days I wake up and I'm like, oh, I've got two or three new meetings with these people. I don't even know. So it's fun because it's every day's definitely an adventure. But yeah, there's there's no two days are the same. Even if the calendar looks like it's the Distillery life is different to the people that are meeting are different. So it's it's a lot of fun. Keeps me on my toes for sure. Well, let's start with like describe your team and what's your role? What's the main hats that you wear at CopperSky these days? And who does the other cool stuff? Yeah, absolutely. That's a great starting point because honestly, none of this would be possible without my team. And that's not a shameless plug to them. Like honestly, I rely heavily on them. I believe very much and put the right people in the right place and let them go. So we'll just kind of start from operations. Isaac is our master blender and the stiller. So the good whiskey that we're sitting on is one of his amazing upward winning creations. Like as young as we are, all the awards we've got this year has been insane. That's all Isaac and he has an amazing palette and he kind of does not only the blending and distilling but all the bottling and the scheduling and the production. So he basically runs everything in the back at a Distillery and then we've got some help. There's a young lady there now. Her name's Erica. So she helps with distilling and bottling and kind of helping him. She's on a really cool journey where she's just traveling around every few months and working at different places or in the country. So really cool to fix her up on the team. Then we have Oliver. He is the mastermind behind all the crazy cool cocktails that we do. Again, I know I make two cocktails. So I rely heavily on him. Whisky and water is one of them. That's right. I tell you, I can make you know fashion and a whiskey meat. But yeah, he's the one that masterminds all these really cool cocktails and he's done culinary stuff. So he's got an amazing palette. All the stuff we have is very unique and all, you know, local ingredients. The specials change every couple weeks. So he stays on top of that. And then he's got a Tori that helps him. She's learning how to get into the cocktail world and has quickly become part of the family of Copper Sky. We got Justin who is the director of marketing. Again, creative genius to labels, stickers, merchandise, I mean, everything. And even the t-shirts that we have, you know, when you look at it, oh, that's a really cool t-shirt. He hand drew all that. That's on there. And then he, you know, becomes a digital file and then we hand it over to the merchandise people. So Justin is just like, he's one of those that I can say because he and I have a very abstract way of thinking of things. So I'll have this idea and I'll just tell him like what the idea is and he conceptualizes it and makes it tangible. So if he is super integral to like our creative part of the company where the customers can see, you know, not just feel the experience. And then with him, we have James, James is our brain manager. He really keeps all the PR stuff in mind, helps with all the social media accounts. Just some more that creative thought too. And then Kaya, she's our director of sales. She's got a really cool story. She started as a mixologist with us and has worked her way through the company and now she runs 135 accounts in Colorado. So she, yeah, she, and we just got you guys been hoping for how long? A year and a half. We're 135 accounts in Colorado. Killing like five new accounts every week. Yeah, she's crushing it. We have a distribution team momentum. They're awesome. They represent us. There are Salesforce. We just got our licenses back yesterday for Florida and California. So we're going to start creeping into those markets. See, Kaya definitely has her games hold. But yeah, that's just another example of how like we develop people and you know, you might be hired the one thing, but I want to teach you and you grow the company. So start as a mixologist and ask you the director. Well, I know you've got these skills have noticed, you know, I think you can do this thing. All right. I love working with people too. So that's, you know, that's kind of where I come. And I'm really, you know, my time in the government, I'm sure we'll get to that. Really taught me how to just build teams and read people and trust them and let them do their job and then give them the resources they need, right? You can just build a team and say, all right, go. They're going to look at you and like, I need tools. I need the tools to do my job. So to me, that's the fun part is watching them do their jobs and they come to me and say, hey, I need this and you know, we go and get it. I would say the biggest hat that I wear is quote, unquote, CEO and it gets to have a lot of meetings and it's fun. I get to meet people, new vendors, new accounts, you know, travel all over the place and just push the brand. And key relationships, that kind of stuff, right? Absolutely. And that's honestly what my passion is, just being with people, you know, sharing a drink with people and they can look their hair down and just talk as humans. You know, occasionally on the operations manager, I had to put orders in and logistics and trap shipping, kind of pushing that off on some of the team, especially as coppers, fat grows and some of my other ventures are growing. I can be more like the owner role, but right now I'm still very much like the owner operator. Yeah. Well, you still just fix it when something breaks. That's right. Yeah. I mean, the cool thing is my team is so independent. Like, most of the time, I've enabled them where if there's a problem, they solve it and they just tell me after the fact, okay, we had this. And no, I've already fixed it. And that's exactly how a team should operate, right? Like, you don't need my, I've had to explain, like, you don't need my permission for all these little things. Like, I've empowered you. Go ahead and do it. Try it. Awesome. I like it. So, um, I guess that describes coppers guy. Um, let's talk about, like, your customers and your, your operations just a little bit further before we bounce over the exhale. Okay. Like, so bars and restaurants are largely buying your products. Is that right? Or is it individuals through a certain, like, through retail liquor stores and stuff? Or what's your mix in that regard? Yeah, I would definitely say that the tables are more individuals via the liquor stores. Okay. Um, so that's what we call, um, I think it's called off-premise. It's like on-premise and bars. Um, so of the 135 accounts, I think a hundred or so are the actual liquor stores. Okay. Twenty or so are bars, restaurants. You know, you name it. So most of our sales come through just basic distribution to liquor stores. And then, you know, on-site sales, at the discovery, people come in with cocktails where they buy bottles from us there. But it's, we're trying to grow into the, you know, with the COVID restrictions loosening, people come back after restaurants and bars. You know, we're really trying to set up those accounts. Because that's a great place for the customer to be able to interact with the product individually. Because, you know, you go to liquor store, you buy the whole bottle, you know, if it's a gas, it's a gas, yeah. You go to a bar and restaurant or, you know, come to the distillery, you can taste it, you can try it. Um, and so that really helps with the marketing aspect, which is why when we go to bars and restaurants and set up accounts, they, they, you know, because they're only buying a bottle or two at a time. So if you use it like, hey man, we'll hook you up because you're pushing the brand. And then, you know, then they push people to liquor stores. And so it's kind of like this revolution of, or evolution of logistics, right? And then the delivery to the restaurant to the liquor store, back to the facility. And that's kind of how we want that. For one bottle of the first time at liquor store. And for a whole case, the next time. Right. Yeah. And that's kind of how we want it. Even at the distillery, there's most times we, we try to push people to the retail stores. For instance, which is why if you buy a bottle of the distillery, it's always more expensive. Because we want you to support the retailers because they're the ones that are buying through our distribution chains. If you buy a distillery, I mean, cool, you're getting the experience and we can sign the bottle, we can have fun. You mean, I could have got that first bottle cheaper if I were to. I gave you the friends and family business. Okay. Okay. Cool. So I think that helps explain that pretty good. We'll come back into the, the story of the distillery. I want to learn how you learn the craft and things like that. But let me talk about Axiom consulting group. Yeah. Axiom was kind of a brain child of something that's always kind of been on my heart. I started my first company when I was 24. Didn't know what I was doing. I just had that passion to start a company and a brand. And didn't really have any help building a website. We didn't have a website. I only had like business cards and a couple very basic things. And so when I kind of matured in my entrepreneurial journey, I really wanted to find way to give back to the community. Obviously, you know, I don't have a lot of money and I definitely don't have too much time. So I basically built this network within Axiom where it's a group of professionals in their respective businesses, you know, whether you're like a CEO mentor or, you know, you do digital design, you do law legal services, tax service. I mean, you name it swag, beat merchandise. We have this conglomerate of other owners or professionals that want to give back to new entrepreneurs. And so basically, it's a four-profit company, but the mindset behind is very charitable. So for instance, the easiest example I'll always give is like, you know, when people want a website, they want a really nice professional website, but most new entrepreneurs can't afford thousands of dollars at a cost to code a website and do all these things. Or they don't know even know how to use the basic platforms like Wix or whatnot. And so instead, I can know the three to five hundred dollars an hour, you know, we charge $125, $150 an hour. So you get the same professional services. We all just discount our rates, basically, as a way to get them. And do you qualify people? Like they just take them out their word that they don't have enough money for the high price stuff. We do our due diligence. So you know, people reach out, we, you know, I do some background research on them and kind of see what they're doing. This is who we serve. I imagine in your marketing, you're like saying, this is what our mission is and things like that. Yeah. So, you know, if someone comes to us and you know, we do some market research and, you know, they're well established and they just, they're trying to find out, you know, obviously, we'll pass them off to someone else. But most of them, we haven't really had that where someone's trying to kind of take it. No, it was actually in here before Copper Sky. No, it was after. So I assume started four or five months after Copper Sky, which is wild because, you know, I mean, it meets the building Copper Sky. I don't know. I don't know. I've got so much free time. Well, you're like in COVID lockdown by about that point too. So you're like, hey, we've got all these people. Yeah. Well, you know, you're definitely danced to your own drum kind of guy. It seems like. And then we're going to talk more about the kingdom project as well later. But let's actually, let's just learn about Mike. So let's zoom back to third grade. Oh, man. And who was Mike in third grade? Did you have a girlfriend yet? Like, what's your family? You know, just briefly, brothers and sisters, what were your parents up to? Yeah. Where'd you come from? Deep roots for Minecraft. Yeah. I'm originally from Florida. Okay. South Florida lived there for a while. Kind of moved up and down the piano, though. And then hopped over to Alabama. And I honestly can't remember. I think I was in Alabama for third grade. We kind of moved around a lot. When what was your dad doing or your family doing? Well, my mom and dad split when I was younger. I don't spend summers with my dad. He still lived in Florida. He was in the Air Force, got out. And then my mom still works for the civil service side of the Air Force. So she kind of traveled around a little bit. And that's how we ended up in Alabama. That's where she's still working out of an actual Air Force base. But I'm pretty sure we moved to Alabama when I was, I think I was in third grade. I honestly don't know. Hey, it doesn't matter that much really. But you were from that background where you're moving around a lot, meeting a lot of new people. Yeah. And it wasn't as much as, you know, a lot of military families. They've moved every two or three years. I really didn't move a lot. I traveled a lot more just because my family was spread out between Alabama and two different places in Florida. So I was always traveling around to see them and spend time with them. But Florida or Alabama was probably the longest, like where I get a lot of my upbringing and culture, probably my southern sign from is Alabama. Because I'm from at least elementary school and I stayed in with the college in the state of Alabama. So I was there for, you know, good chunk of my life. And where did you go school? I went to Troy University. Okay. And I don't even know what Troy's all, is that a private school? Yeah, it's public school. Okay. Yeah. It's in Troy, Alabama. They've worked Troy State. Yeah. And for what do you seem like an engineer or something maybe? No, I do have quite the reference floor of degrees though. So I have from Troy, I've got a bachelor's in sport management because I wanted to be a sports agent like Jerry McGuire. Oh, sweet. Yeah. And then I did an internship and it was nothing like the movie. And they were like, you have to be a lawyer really to be a sports agent. I'm like, not doing this, but I didn't give up on that degree. So I finished that degree and just added a second degree. So then I had a Homeland Security and that's kind of where I went to the military route. Yeah. I got a double major from Troy. And then right, you know, right before I shipped off, I immediately started my first master's at Troy in public administration. So really like in legal studies, kind of just dabbling in policy creation. And I think we mentioned it, but I got my second degree from Liberty University in theology. Yes. Love the, I started in Missional Studies and then it took my first theology class and just fell in love. So then I switched over to theology and finished that second master's and now about halfway done with my PhD at Liberty in public policy. Interesting policy, government creation. Yeah. Yeah. Or recreation maybe. Yeah. Yeah. We can talk more about that later. Yeah. So, um, so you get out of your kind of first set of degrees and go into the military and, and were you army Air Force? That's what you said. Sorry. Yeah. And so what was your role, what were you doing in the Air Force? I started in security forces with basically like law enforcement, kind of the crowned ones of the Air Force. And the unit I was with was not law enforcement. It was only expeditionary. So we only trained deployed, come back trained deployed. Really fun unit out in Georgia. Um, I was commissioned officer in the Air Force. So I got to, you know, troop lead from day one, which was a blast. And we're just kind of getting to building teams. Um, I did security forces for about six, seven years. And then when I was in Pakistan, I actually lived in Pakistan for a year and assignment. I was getting ready to get out. And then OSI, which is, um, basically everybody knows NCIDS on TV. Right. It's the same brand. There's the same arm. It's OSI in the Air Force. Okay. Federal law enforcement, counterintelligence, you name for all whatever. OSI reached out to me, kind of recruited me over. So I switched over and finished up my time in the Air Force with OSI, which was a blast. And got to see some really cool stuff. What's OSI set up for? Office of special investigations. Yeah. It was fun. But, you know, towards the end of my time there, I'd always told other people when they asked me if I was going to make it a, you know, 20 year career, the moment I stopped, you know, enjoying the work, I don't need to do it anymore because that's when you become a toxic leader and it's just not a good environment to be. And so, got to point where I just, I think I was a little burnt out. Um, and so I was like, you know what, I'm going to go back to being honest. Choked a few subordinates and stuff. No, actually, like, what I'm observing though is that you've been a student of people. Like, you were like, you know, I saw that guy after he got lost his love of this. He might have been a good guy before, but then he turned into a bad leader, you know, and so I'm not going to be there myself. Yeah, that's a very well stated for sure. Yeah, I try to at least surround myself with people. I mean, pros and cons, right? You got to, that's good. Leaders on their baffles, good tables, bad people. You don't learn something from everybody. Yeah. And most of us are a mix. Absolutely. What day of the week is it right? Right. For sure. Yeah. For sure. So you got this military career and then you're starting to get a little stale and where do you go from there? I think. Yeah, I definitely have that entrepreneur here again. Okay. And timeline me a little bit. How long ago is this? How old a guy are you at that time? Yeah, it hardly is in the background, but we might get a train. We usually do. So I see I got out beginning of 2020. Oh, wow. Oh, that's just just very short ago. Yeah. So I thought you had some time in, I guess the OSI is the government, the spy stuff. Right. Yeah, the spy stuff. Now less spy stuff and more federal law enforcement type stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. So that's what I was wrapping up. And then, you know, I had a love for kind of finding cool bourbon and enjoying the really cool bourbon and just trying different things. And so, you know, has my desire to, you know, do government service kind of do a little bit my, you know, my passion for want to build another business and a brand kind of increase. I just merge that. So instead of trying to say, you know, what am I going to do with the next business? I just took, you know, what I was having fun with in life right then, you know, chasing bourbon, finding really cool bourbon and making that into a brain and into a company. I'm going to call a timeout. You mentioned earlier that when you were 24, you had this other entrepreneur venture. Yeah. And we just like totally jumped over that apparently somehow. I just kind of throw out. We just moved. Got me to the brothel or something. No, I'm just easy. No, it was a transportation company. So it was basically a safe ride before Uber and Lyft were a thing. So in Troy, Alabama, we didn't have, we didn't have taxis. So when I was, I graduated and now I was a post. I wasn't a senior, but I graduated and working on masters. And it just had hit me, you know, a lot of friends. They're post graduate students. Yeah, there's a bunch of bars or what have you there. And there's no real safe way for people to get around the city. Yeah. Call friends a millimeter. Yeah. Four Collins was that way. It was like, we did have taxis, but it was like, do you want the 45-minute way or the hour and 40-minute way? Right. Yeah. We had no options in Troy. So essentially, I started, it's called Troy Transit. We had a van, a 15-bass van and a black suburban in case you wanted to feel really special. And a private phone number and you could just call wherever, wherever, between these hours, we'd come pick you up and take you home or take you to the next spot. And so it's basically a safe ride for the students. Yeah. And then just under two years, the school kind of picked that that theme up and rolled it into the students tuition and now they have a fleet of buses so I could back off with that. So I mean, it really was, I called a succession a lot when they start businesses. They're like, I want to make millions and do all these to me. It's, I don't want to. Whatever you created, a thing that's still going. I just want to have an impact. So I mean, it might not be Troy Transit, but that idea of making sure that students, you know, have a safe ride that's still there. It's going well. But then the school started competing with you basically. You're like, okay, whatever you can have it. Or do they buy it from you? No, exactly. That's they're like, hey, you know, we're going to start doing buses perfect because I don't have the logistical afford to demand is 24 buses, 1000. Right. Really, this was like a business that I started to kind of spur on someone else. It was a business as a political statement. Right. It was a social social statement. I guess at least. Absolutely. I never intended that business to, you know, to be something that I grew to sell off. Yeah. It was just something that was on my mind that you could be done. Yeah. And you know, first business, I was young. I didn't really have to wear with all to run that type of company. So it was really, it was up in a successful way. We made money. All employees were paid. I, when I shut it down, we owed zero dollars. Like all the cars were paid off. I would call that a system. And the problem was solved. Absolutely. There was a solution for that. I can't get home after going on drinking, which is what college students will do. Yep. So yeah, I mean, I call it a success because I think the legacy is still there. Yeah. And then again, when you start a business and close it, debt free and all your employees are paid. Okay. No, a better way. I mean, I'm not trying to get rich off it out of that four out of five that close is not everyone that doesn't that way. That's pretty rare. Yeah. Normally, you know, that, you know, early, you're closed in problem bankruptcy. Employees are knocking on your door. All that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's thanks for that interlude. I didn't want to miss that small chapter, I suppose. Tell me a, like an interesting story from the OSI days. Like, talk to me about, like, what, what is it really like back there? I think it really depends on what office you're in. Right. Because we have a couple of different orders. We've got regular criminal investigations. There's counterintelligence. They're fraud protection services, which is basically like the secret service. Right. And to me, that was, I did a lot of work in the crime and counterintelligence, but I really love, there's called the PSO protective service operations. That was my favorite time. You know, I got to do, uh, President Trump came through, um, Peterson Air Force Base, and I got to do like, it was just like side of road detail protection, but I was there and he drove by. He's like, wait, I can see that. I thought that was really cool. Just to know that we're out there doing a protection detail. The president was driving by like, it's no big deal. Um, that obviously, the counterintelligence that I can't really get into, the crime stuff's neat. It's like, I mean, it's just like what you see on TV, right? Like, you know, those crimes and we go out there and do the the crime scene, right? To deal with different things. Now, is that like crimes within the military branches overseas? So it's like a, I mean, I hate to say it, but like a soldier raped a lady soldier or something dumb like that or a citizen, right? Or that in a fight, whatever. Well, so the difference in us is that we're a felony level. Okay. You know, if it's typically like a bit states eye, you know, I mean, it really ranges from anything from sexual assaults to murders. Yeah. There's murder cases that they're running suicide cases. Unfortunately, um, you know, a lot about, you know, the sexual predator cases, you know, child stuff, which is not ever fun to deal with, but that's the one when justice is served. You know, you're really, you're really like, yeah. But it was definitely an experience to see that side of society. I think a lot of people don't really understand, you know, they just get what the news shows or what the TV portrays. You know, doing that stuff, you know, real world is a very different experience. And I've got a lot of friends that still do it and, you know, hats off to them. There's days I miss it. I honestly do. I miss putting the badge on and going out and doing that work because I'm very analytical. So that was fun, like, solving those puzzles that would help other people. Well, and you've got like a super high, like, emotional intelligence thing going on too. So what you can combine that analytical thinking plus, like, little receptors all over you. I love doing interrogations and interviews. I really did enjoy getting in people's minds and just understanding why they did things and, you know, solving like how they did it. That was really fun to me. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of people that can't sleep when I do that, I, I really found an emotional high, you know, trying to get inside someone's psyche and understand why they did what they did. Because you know, if you're on that side of the table, they don't believe it's wrong. There's something in their brain that says it says it wrong. It seems like you could be a good prosecuting attorney or something like that if you want it to. Maybe career seven. Yeah, well, you don't have to work anymore. You want to do that grueling miserable job of trying to put the mad guys in jail. So I got into liberty and study theology because I was applying to law school. Super random. I want to go to law school not to be a lawyer, but just I love law. So I want to have a lot of agree. And then my, one of my answers to the lawyer, she's like, that doesn't make sense to spend all that money to not be a lawyer. And so I'm on the phone with liberty and like, you know, why do you want to do this? And the next thing I know, I'm enrolling biology classes. So you know, got a different way. Yeah. Interesting. Well, theology ethics laws ethics kind of, I mean, there's a strong mutual tie there. Absolutely. We'll definitely have some fun talking. I'm sure I'm sure that's a huge thing. Yeah, that's why I think I love you. So I think I can stop with my time out now and just come back to this. So we got copper sky. So you decided because you're a bourbon hound of sorts and like a good palette and whatever that this is the entrepreneurial journey. I'm assuming that you saved up some dough and maybe done some experimenting and stuff before you actually started or whatever. But so talk to me about that journey, those first months of like getting ready to become a real thing with a website and selling products and all that. Yeah, that actually moved much quicker than I anticipated. So I was originally looking at, you know, building out of space in Colorado Springs, a typical process when you want to start a distillery. Yeah, and where are you in this time? Are you, where, were you living somewhere in Colorado Springs? In Colorado Springs. Okay. The assignment was in Colorado Springs. Okay. Still there kind of brain child, the copper sky distillery. And so I was looking in Colorado Springs to start the distillery just for, you know, reference it. It usually takes between 12 and 18 months to get a distillery started because you have to have the space before you can even apply pure licensing. They got new inspections and you got to work. I mean, it's a really drawn out car. But because you're a government insider, they like rubber stamped you all listed. No, so I actually just took a different unique route. That's very time-based. So instead of starting from scratch, which I had started that process, a friend reached out to me, okay, there's a distillery that's, you know, for sale in Long Island. Of course, my first response was, there was Long Island and I looked it up and I reached out to that owner who was selling it. It's much better than Colorado Springs. It's really cool. It's like a little southern city. You know, when we lose each other, we're all friendly to each other. But so yeah, what I did was instead of starting from scratch, I did what's known as an asset purchase. And so because I did an asset purchase, I got to basically take over their licenses and I had X amount of time to just change the names and do all the new stuff for Copper Scott. Yeah. So not only did that kind of, you know, catapult me and starting Copper Scott must quicker, it allowed us to really get going. Yeah. You already had Burberry and the barrels and stuff. You just had it mix a different and whatever. No, not that. Right. So, you know, of course, like you know, like Whiskey were sourcing from MGP right now. So I really had, you know, get orders going much sooner than I anticipated. So we had to raise capital much sooner than I anticipated. So everything kind of was very fast-paced. So the typical trial and error where, you know, you kind of have some time where you get started for us was like we're opening and then, you know, first few months is trial and error. So it was very interesting, especially opening right when the state shut down for COVID. Right. That was a fun journey. So it's been a very interesting experience, but again, I have a great team that, you know, when I pay the day, pay the day, there's not a lot of resistance. They understand that I've got some decent insight with the business and so they trust me and I trust them. So it's really good as we, I think that's why we're growing so well because it's organic growth, right? It's not just, you know, this impression of outside, you know, we feel like we're growing. I think that growth is internal and people are recognizing that. So yeah, we can do this thing. Yeah. I like that. So like do you want to talk about maybe the process of like whiskey, bourbon? Sure. Whatever. Like, like, how do you make this magic sauce? And would you like me to put a little bit more in your glasses? Okay. I always talk about whiskey. You gotta have some whiskey. Yes, if you do that again. That's a beautiful background. That is. I was on a podcast like a year ago and they put it closer. That's like a great, so they actually recorded that and they used it as a transition from like the different, you know, segments. I like it. They would have like the music and they'd have the poor and I was like, that's a really cool sound. You got a good clean for it. And you know, it's whiskey. It's like nobody would have more water like that. What are you? So kind of weirdo. Juice is our great juice. Right. Well, man, so yeah, so the science behind whiskey, I'll give you my inspiration because if you ever get to come with a distiller and talk to Isaac, he has a really cool, like he gets really into the science behind distilling. Yeah. I'm very much the old school southern, like if you go to Kentucky and they tell you like, oh, yeah, all the owners and founders, they're very practical and like when we drink whiskey, it's good or bad. And I can tell you some notes and the distillers are like, they're nerd now in the science. That's how I am. I'm very much like when we do blends and we do stuff like this, Isaac and I and the team will sit down and I'm like, yes, no, yes, no. And then we kind of revisit it, but he is very technical. So my spiel on, you know, how we make whiskey, you got to come and see the equipment. So we have our cook tanks, our ferment tanks and then our still. So, you know, it starts in the different grain and mash bill. And all mash bill means, like, is it corn, wheat, rice? I kind of like rye whiskey. Yeah. And so that's what we're drinking. That's what I brought it for you. We're drinking the 21% rye. Oh, I didn't know that sweet. Yeah. So yeah, we're starting to cook tank, you know, we'll bring the water up to temperature. Basically all the ingredients go in, they cook in there with water. And we're trying to get, you know, all the sugars and stuff to break down. Because what we want to do is basically like the corn not to open up and break down. So when we move it to the ferment tank and we pitch the yeast, the yeast are eating all the sugar and they're creating the alcohol bubbles, the alcohol vapor. So I can do it to open the top of it. How is that right? Like those bubbles that are going on on there? It's kind of like alcohol releasing. It is. And that's like that also shows us how active the yeast are. So it's bubbling while you get a lot of alcohol vapor is kind of popping up. The yeast are really active. And that's what we want. Because I mean, they're living organisms. So we want them to be very active. So we're like in a beer, it's just kind of mixing in the solution. But in a distillery kind of thing, is it escaping up through the pipes and stuff? That's later. Okay. Yes, that one and two is very similar for brewery. You know, we both cook our, our matches. We both ferment our matches. Where we differ is our third step then takes that ferment and mash from the, the fermenters. And we pump it into the still. And still we're raising up, you know, anywhere at 212 degrees because we're trying to get the alcohol vapor to separate from the water and all the other stuff. So when you see the still in the column, all the stuff that's climbing up are the alcohol vapor. So you're just kind of like boiling beer effectively ish kind of. And the alcohol part, because it boils at the lowest temperature, it boils a little lower temperature than water does. So is that right? The alcohol kind of jumps out. Yeah, and a lot of people will call like that ferment distiller's beer. Yeah. Because it's basically you get, we're brewing, it's a little different formula, but you know, theoretically it's kind of the same. We're, we're taking that match, we're putting in the still, we're heating it really high. So the alcohol vapor is can climb everything else stays dense and low. And then it goes all the way up to the still and then kind of drips out of the bottom. Those little drips appear alcohol is what we're catching. Okay. That's what we're going to put in a barrel. And then you put water in it before you put in the barrel or something to make it because it's 40% right? Yeah, it depends. So like, you know, if it's a bourbon, it's got to go into the barrel at 125 proof or lower. So if something comes off and we're trying to make sometimes you might have to add, you know, water to get it down. Generally, we we're not adding water to it. You're trying to just boil it at the kind of right pace so that there's some water coming across and some. So that's another thing. That's another step in the distillation. There's three cuts that we're doing heads, hearts and tails. And you know, there's different names for four shots, hearts, whatever. But the heads, you know, that's like the first 10% that we're collecting that we're basically disposing of. It's very high proof. It's not good to consume. We use it for cleaner around the distillery. The hearts are what we're, you know, that at 80% that we're really trying to catch. Yeah, the really volatile compounds jump out right away. Right. Is that kind of right? That's probably good for describing. Yeah, that's probably more of an Isaac question because I'm going to be nerds out on this and he understands all the signs. And in that last part, the tails, we keep that last, you know, 10, 15% and we reuse it for the next cycle as a flavoring agent because it's still pure alcohol. It's just not as fine as we want. So we put it in the still for the next run. It adds more alcohol to the second run. Add some more flavors so that hearts flavor or that heart's kind of the second one is also. It's like friendship bread. Just like friendship bread. Yeah. And if it's whiskey, it goes into a, you know, American boat barrel and sits there for four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, however many years we want to. Okay. And so this one we're drinking is 21% rye. This is four years old. I think I saw five years old. Five years old, five years old. It's a, what does that say? What for is that mean? I can't read my. Oh, batch four? Oh, batch four. Yes. So, so it's a, it's a, it's a rye blend whiskey, basically. Is that right? Yep. So that under our rye bread and our wheat and urban, those are typically blends. So it'll be a few different barrels at different ratios that we blend to kind of get the flavor profile. Okay. So that's a whole different part that we really pride ourselves in because we're doing sourcing right now is the blending that we do. We don't just take, you know, two barrels and throw it in a drum and call it a blend. We have experiments that we do for every single batch that we put out. And we're very meticulous. We've only ever had one blend that was a true 50% one and 50% the other. A lot of times it's just crazy ratio. Sometimes we'll throw three or four barrels in there because we're still kind of small. Yeah. But yeah, we don't just throw two barrels and call it a blend. We sample all the barrels and see how they would complement each other and then we take those specifically kind of breaking down. And are you just making whiskies or are you making some, usually distillery start out with a lot of vodka's and gins and rums and stuff because you don't got to age them so long and whatever. Right. Yeah, we didn't start with any clear spirit. The only one we do is a moonshine. So we make the moonshine and we also make a rum at the distillery. The rum is an age rum. So once it comes off the still, you know, it's clear, but we throw it into a Hungarian hook barrel and it sits there in ages for a couple of years. Okay. And so it gets a really cool flavor profile. And then of course a moonshine is clear, but I'm not a big block of fan. I'm not a gin fan. Of course, we can't make the cure because we're not in Mexico. Right. So, you know, we just went headfirst into the whiskey thing because that's what we all really love. So this is five years old though, but you just started year and a half ago. So was this some of the stock or are you blending other source whiskey that we're talking about? Okay. So we get all those, I think I should draw those barrels. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll take those aged barrels and, you know, do really cut some unique blends with those and that's what we're releasing. Oh, I see. So we have some of our own new fills and stuff that we're laying down, but that's good. You know, it takes years to age. I'm not going to rush out a product. Yeah. Yeah. So you're building a brand almost before you're really selling a lot of your own manufactured product. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's really neat. Yeah. And well, and it tastes like this. I don't care. You're right. And you know, what that's what most people say is, you know, as long as you're giving me good whiskey, and you know, we kind of built up the reputation where they they know my pal, they know Isaac's pal, they know we're going to give you a good product every time. So there's a lot of trust in what we do because the whiskey industry is one, you know, the first impression is a huge thing. If you, if someone doesn't like your product, it's going to take them usually a few years to come back and try to give them because there's so many brands they can try. Right. It's not good. They're not going to keep coming back to you. How many, just so many air guests, how many brands of whiskey, do you think are available? You know, retail liquor stores in the state of Colorado. I would say like in your average size liquor store, probably anywhere from 50 to 100. And then big liquor stores, hundreds. Yeah. So, and then like so all across the state, there's probably 500 to a thousand different brands of whiskey's improvements. You're talking about out of state consumers to or out of state brands as well. So in the state of Colorado alone, we have the most of the stories that anyone, we're pushing upwards of 115 distilleries right just in this state. Just Colorado. Right. And so that doesn't talk about Johnny Walker or, you know, whatever you know, Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas. I mean, and then every other state that has a bunch of distilleries. Yeah. Right. Right. The Irish have been known to make a little whiskey here in there. The Scottish. Yes. Oh, right. So there's so now, there's so many brands, but there's so many styles too. So yeah, if you don't, if you don't get that consumer the first time, you probably won't have an opportunity for them again for a few years. So what do you say the copper sky brand stands for? Oh, man, that's a, we've been asked that question. Sorry, it's hard one. You're going to put time off. It's a deep question. Yeah. I honestly have what we stand for as a family. And that's you know, in all aspects, there's this little sign that someone made us that sits on top of the piano next to me there. It says, family is our inspiration. Whiskey is our passion. And that's a, you know, because family is, it's not just blood. I mean, I've got family all over the world that I would do anything for just like I would my blood brothers. And so that's kind of how we are at Copper Sky, even with the staff, like we're really tightened in family. We help each other without having to be asked. And that's one of the cool things. I love watching that, you know, like, you know, Isaac and I aren't mixologists, but you know, when we get really busy, hey, and I would jump in and start cleaning tables and taking orders and just, like, helping each other and even outside of work. I mean, how often is it like we're all playing corn more together? We're all going to dinner together. We do things together in this genuine. It's not like, hey, this is mandatory fun. You know, right? You know, who wants to go do this? And usually most of us are out doing it together. So, and I think that bleeds into our customers because we've had so many people tell us that they recognize, you know, the close knitness between our staff. And it flows to the customer too. We treat them like family. You know, when they're there, you know, you can talk about anything, you can chit chat with us, you know, we tell you all the stories about the facility. We're pretty open book there. And again, that rolls out to the retailers and we're doing tastings. Like we just, we treat everyone else, you know, that the golden hole right, we treat them like they want to be treated. I want you to, you know, kind of like my product. So, I'm going to be kind of you and appreciate you and your time. I love it. Where did Copper Sky come from? Like was that the name before when you were down in Colorado Springs thinking about names and stuff? Or did that come about from a sunset over Long's Peak? Yeah, it's actually kind of perfect. Yes. So, the consumer answer is, you know, everyone who lives in your Colorado, you've seen the, you know, sunset. So, or any of them out ranges. It's this beautiful orange amberish glow. That's where a lot of people joke and say, God's a Broncos fan because you get this orangeish glow. It's like, it really creates like this Copper Sky over the mountains. So, that's really kind of like the Colorado answer. Right. But you personally, like the Copper Sky is also, you know, in revelations, we see a lot of different imagery of like wars and battles and really cool stuff going on. And so for me, like, when I think of Copper Sky personally, it's like, man, they're, they're really cool in times things that's going on in revelation. So, that's the personal side of it. But yeah, the corporate answer, you know, it's Colorado mountain. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I dig it. So, what's next for Copper Sky? You mentioned to me that you were doing a pretty significant expansion already of your productive capacity. And like, where do you go from here? What's your, what's your imagination of the one or three or five kind of year horizon? It's funny because we're in year two and we're already executing year three to five plans. So, it's crazy how fast we're kind of we're growing. But yeah, we're getting ready to move from our location now. It's a really cool old historical location downtown online. It's an old turkey factory. Cool. It's the old Butterball factory. You and Wibbier would be neighbors. Yeah. Yeah. We have a boat right across from now. So, it used to be like this five or six building complex. Okay. They've leveled all of those buildings and the one that we're moving is the last standing building. It's the old spicing building for the Butterball factory. Nice. So, we move in there. It's going to double our size effectively. You have a lot more space, a bigger casing room. Better for our people. Well, so much easier. It's great location down there because you can both get to it easy from downtown or wherever you are. Absolutely. The highway, west, you know, Boulder. Yeah. And it's well parked still. Yeah. At least right now. A lot of our regulars too have said you know that's perfect because that's they can walk and bike there. Right. So, it's actually even better for our regulars. I mean, where we're at now is a little industrial. You can get to a bike and go over there. It's a new development called South Main. So, let's go to the spot. Totally. We just go right through the train, by the way, but you get a you get a free whiskey drink if we have a train here in the podcast. It's the standard Colorado background. For sure, right? So, love that new location. So, what's the timeline on that? I'm really question the dollars. We can get out early. We can't actually look at January, February. That really is. We got obviously through the roof right now. Everything's behind because of the COVID. So, you know, we can get first quarter next year. That would be really cool. Cool. We'll do a fun little launch there. So, yeah. And of course, you know, as I mentioned earlier, that's our physical expansion. We're also expanding, you know, Colorado, Florida, Texas, New York. Right. We've got some distribution expansions that we're working on now as well. And I guess because you're blending other people's products, you can supply increased demand a lot easier than if you were only only featuring your own. Yeah, there's still some challenges because the burden boom is still kind of going on right? Right. Oh, so you got to try to buy this stuff and it's hard to come by. Yeah, it's one of the barrels before the people get on. And I have good relationships with some of our, you know, um, barrel brokers. So, that's that helps. But generally, yeah, I can't just say, I want a 15 year girl whiskey. Right. Good luck. So, yeah, we definitely have to stay ahead. Yes, you can have it. It's not $10,000. It's $100,000. Yeah. It's a good luck finding all that stuff. So, yeah, it's definitely trying to stay ahead of that to, um, this forest logistics. Yeah. So, um, like, I have to imagine that maybe not as you will, you continue to always be somewhat sourced elsewhere. And then you'll have your own in house, like, super premium stuff that you guys created or really not differentiated will just be part of your, you'll supply some of your own production. There's more of a business background question here. That's good question. And we get a lot to, especially when we tell people that we're sourcing now, we're going to go to more of a blended model. So, we will continue to source through MGP and have a few of those products in our portfolio because I'm not going to introduce what is now on a war-winning spirit blend, depending on take it from you. Right. So, what we do is when our, um, when our spirits become ready in their age, you're ready to release them, we'll just add that to the brand. It'll be a new brand or a new, yeah. So, there'll still be, you know, the Copper Sky whiskey, what will happen is instead of having, you know, you know, five different products now that are from MGP, we'll probably have like two from MGP and then introduce like three from Copper Sky. So, the portfolio will still remain five products because I don't want to oversaturate. Some brands have like 14 different labels. So, we'll still keep some of the MGP in rotation. We'll just introduce the Copper Sky product and they'll both kind of complement each other. I think one of the things that's interesting about the beer industry is that they keep coming up with new stuff all the time, all the time, all the time. And I do what you will, but it seems like if you could have like one that was a rotator, that would be kind of fun. Like, we've always got something new coming out. Stay tuned. Yeah, and that's kind of how we do our special releases. Sometimes it'll be one or two, but generally, you know, maybe once a quarter or a couple of times a year, we'll introduce something that's like really exclusive, like a finished whiskey, you know, with Apple brand, your grain money, or whatever, what have you. And that's just, hey, here's a fun little thing that we did as an experiment. There's only 150 bottles. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. That kind of stuff, yeah. The beers are a little different because they have to stay super creative. There's so many different things. I like to, you know, with us, I like to say we have to stay more innovative versus creative because in whiskey, you're not really changing the process. You know, really, you might try some really cool experiments, like flavor experiments or blending experiments, but at the very core, it still should be, you know, you're reading whiskey or whatever your spirit, it's still what it should be. And then maybe with a little twist to it, it's not. With the cocktails is where you can get crazy. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. That's how you can showcase some of the really cool things you can do at the spirit. Yeah. I dig it. So talk to me about, like, axiom and that, is that something you're trying to grow? Or are you like hoping to create an eco sphere down there? I mean, it's not a co-working space. It's a really unusual kind of, not to shift hard off of the distillery, but I feel like we've kind of covered a lot of that, my questions there. Actually, before we do that, what else would you have me know about the distilled spirits business? Like, like, pull the curtain back a little bit, like, just pull the curtain back a little bit. You mentioned the spirits brokerage business potentially in your future. And I think that would do something to pull the curtain back. Tell me, tell the lay people out there just listening to this, but curious about whiskey and distilled spirits. What's it really like in the background that we don't see as consumers? It's much more meticulous than you would imagine, because you got to move. We have not only federal government oversight, we have state government oversight and city oversight. So it's not like, oh, man, I've got this really cool label. I'm going to throw it out there. I mean, there's so many approval processes you have to go through. So many layers of taxes you have to pay. So I mean, yeah, the fun is when we're out hanging out and drinking and, you know, hey, this is our whiskey, but the stuff that, you know, we're working late at night or early in the morning or, you know, I'm dreaming about writing notes about when I wake up is all the little bitty tests that go into getting that bottle ready for market. So it's really not, it's not as easy or as hard as someone would make, and I know that's kind of a juxtaposition, but it's not as easy as like, I'm going to buy a company and start a brand. It's really, it's, there's a reason why there's, you know, an eight of the facilities of what there are breweries, right? Brewers are in every corner of the facilities. You might have a couple in the city. We just have a lot of different oversight and checklists that we have to meet for the government, but it's also not as hard as you think, right? I mean, if you dedicate your time, you knock these tasks out, hey, do it. Just get a good lawyer. Again, get people who know what they're doing, but the new place, it's definitely an industry where you can't know it all. And so you need to surround yourself with people that can help you, because I mean, even like myself is the quote unquote CEO, you know, Isaac helps me put together all the reports that we have to do for the taxes and all the federal government, because he's the one who's doing the production, right? And space off, you know, gallons and leaders. So this is not a main issue where you can, I honestly, I don't understand how someone to just buy themselves, like, you know, you can start other companies and kind of do it on your own, maybe your spouse, maybe a friend and slowly build a team. I don't understand how people would succeed in this without having it. It has to be pretty incredible. Yeah. Because even the time, it's not even the wherewithal. Right. You don't have the time. I mean, making a barrel of whiskey takes days, not just hours. I mean, that's a, that's days-on-process. When are you going to take your time away from the state of the report? Right. When are you going to do your taxes? When are you going to do your extension on your, yeah, all things. So many things to do, which is like, this is, that's the fun part about it, is you can build a cool team and just have fun. Yeah. Well, that's a barrier to entry, right? Like, to a certain extent, I mean, a brewery actually has a little bit lower barrier to entry in some respects, because it's like a simpler process in so many ways. Yeah. I mean, they give you some insane challenges with it, but yeah, it's definitely different for sure. That's a great way to put it. I think there's a little bit less barriers to entry. Whereas with ours, I mean, even just trying to apply for a license is a massive barrier. Because we're one of the few industries where you have to have a physical space with a lease and you're paying a lease on an empty building before the federal government will even look at you. Yeah. So there's times where like I've heard friends, they, they paid six to eight months of lease on a building that they can't even operate in. Sure. Yeah. Before they even get their license. Well, and then for a lot of this to lose, if they're starting from scratch and not sourcing outside, it's like, here, here's some super young Shitty vodka. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's just the different. That's why we didn't really kind of get into the vodka's and the gyms. And even with our whiskeys, like we don't have really, really young whiskeys like a year ago, I just, there's no sense in Russian Brussels. Yeah. I dig it. So let's let's transition over to the third business that you've found in the kingdom group. And I think now is a good time to start jumping into our faith family politics because we're going to go there anyway. What's a kingdom advancement project? Advancement project. And you've got a book here for God and country. I forgot to introduce you as an author as well. I mean, it's a short book. I mean, I've written essays that are almost as long as I am. So it's that short because I made back with some friends. They said they would read it if I kept it under 100 pages. Okay. So they are. All right. Keep it under 100 pages for me. So for God and country and when did this come together? 2019. Okay. I was when I finished. I started writing in early 2018. Okay. I actually started writing it when I was in Pakistan. Oh wow. So I was finishing up a seminary. My theology studies and started writing a book and kind of started in Pakistan and then finished here in Colorado. Well, I see it as kind of knitting together your notions of theology and like America. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's why like the subtitle is a discussion on servant leadership. So it's really focused on, you know, my time when I was a commissioned officer in the military and, you know, my faith like how can we serve? And it's not limited to the military. I think I say that like that first chapter or whatever. It's any federal service post office. I mean, you name it anything that you're serving any form of even city government. Like how can you continue to serve the government writ large and be a faithful follower of Christ? Well, and don't you think that's not just government citizens, but also every citizen? Absolutely. You know, the reason I wrote that is because I obviously I was in the military. I had a lot of friends who had some sort of government background. So I really wrote it for not only myself, but for the friends who are kind of struggling with that because I mean, here's the biggest difference. You know, as you and I walking down the street right now, I have a lot more freedom to openly express my faith. When you're a government or an employer of a government, you still have those same constitutional rights, but there's like an implied. Yeah, right. And there's even some misunderstanding of you're not allowed to share your faith. That's not, that's, you know, I address that. That's not the case anymore. Right. You can, you know, have a Bible on your desk and you can do these things, but there's this notion within us that, you know, I'm serving the government right now. I can't be a servant of Christ. So you really wrote it to those people in some ways. Right. That thing because I'm a servant of the government. I can't really be as engaged in my faith journey. I mean, it's cool. I mean, Romans is the perfect book. They're showing that but God calls us to serve in all serving the government. So it's really cool. And that's kind of what I tried to address in that. I like that it's a forgotten country instead of for country and God. That's right. Yeah. So like kingdom advancement project does what and when does that start? Yeah, that started. 13 or 14. And that spurred off from I used to go on mission trips to Nicaragua with my church in Georgia. And they have been doing it for years. So I went there the first year following up with the people and what we were doing. But recognize that there is a void of like when they needed just basic things like, you know, they have a lot of floods or whatever. So they needed generators where they needed Bibles. They needed studying material for the kids. And we just didn't have the resources to do all of that. So my second year I went and came back and I was like, hey, let's start a nonprofit and try to raise some funds so that when we go to these places, we can go with some resources. And so we started a kingdom advancement project. And the whole premise behind that is we're focused more on tools for God versus like physical places. So we've had people that have been like, hey, you know, we need this building built. I get it. I know you want to build the state of the ring. But what you need is Bibles. You need, you know, Bibles in your native tongue. You need teaching material for your children so they can rip and understand. Like you need these type of resources. Not these tangible, like a room friend. Well, and because like I'm imagining that there's a lot of missionaries out there that are supported by a church in some fashion. But they don't really necessarily have the materials they need. They might even have a grant from the Rotary Club to go do something or whatever, but not necessarily the kingdom advancement part. Right. Yeah. And that's really worth an aim from. That's why I focus on, you know, the advancement of the kingdom. It's not the advancement of, you know, how good do I feel or how happy I am? It's advancing the word of God. And if you don't have the physical word of God, it's kind of hard to advance that. Yeah, I mean, it's on our hearts. And we can definitely teach it. But for those new believers, like you need the script for you. And so it started in Nicaragua. We've since branched out. We help missionaries in India and Pakistan. It's a really cool week gotten, you know, Bibles and Erdo and teaching material for like kids Sunday schools and India. So that's really, and you know, it's hard because they'll, they'll ask us like, hey, I need a new air conditioner and I've lived in those countries. I know how hot it is. And so it's really hard to be like, you know, I get it. But let me spend that $500 on. That's what we do for your children. Right. Like it's, it's a different approach we take in, you know, it's kind of hard sometimes, but at the same time, you know, we all firmly believe that, you know, it's the word God that changes people. It's not a air conditioner. It's not a, you know, light. It's not even a roof or a building. It's none of those things. Like we are the church with the body of Christ as the church. And that's what we need to maintain. So talking about that, like was your mom a faithful follower or like what, where does your faith come from? Yeah, my faith definitely comes from my biggest influences are my mom and my grandparents. Okay. So I got to live with my grandparents and all the child and my mom was overseas serving. I can turkey in different places. And so my grandparents had a really big impact on me when I was like a young child, really unbelievable mind. And then my mom just threw up my life, you know, she was a single mom for a while before my step back came in. And she just really showed me her faith. And even to this day, like she's probably her, my grandparents are the two or three biggest that just, they lived their faith. And I, you know, I see that, you know, I get a lot of slack because I have tattoos and none of them like tattoos. But, you know, most of mine I try to at least dedicate to God in some way, because you know, my former job with the government, everyone had tattoos. It was always a talking point. Even when I was in interrogations, you know, people would notice these tattoos. So a lot of them were conversation starters, you know, they're in different languages, like, you know, five solos I've got on my wrist. And it's just different things. So at least it was a conversation starter. So yeah, I'm definitely a little more like Renegade, the rebel of the family. But I still try to, you know, find ways to, you know, point back to God and even the ink that's in my skin. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. So, um, was that like it was just kind of stamped in you, you and, and if you would, like sure, sure, that perspective, like, Baptist, I guess, Southern Baptist down there in Alabama a lot is that. Yeah, definitely raise the Southern Baptist. I can't, this is why I like, you know, the grandparents aren't too fond of me running in the stillery and having tattoos because the Southern Baptist is a little different. But, yes, I have a, I have a quote from my, did I, did I subscribe to my blog before I sent it? Oh, that's fair. Yeah. Oh, I'll forward it to you because, um, I quoted, uh, Jimmy Dean um, last month and we, I had a big discourse on the golden rule actually in how it's different in the platinum rule and different things. And, and you'll like it, I think. But, uh, in addition to his quote, um, do what you're saying you're gonna do is, as a Jimmy Dean quote, um, but he also said, being a Baptist won't stop you from sinning, but it sure as hell, we stop you from enjoying it. Yeah, definitely afford me that blog. I will, I will. Yeah, so I was, again, I was raised, you know, by formal, formidable years, you know, around the Baptist tradition. So, I grew up around the faith, and I found my own faith. It wasn't, you know, I'm very much a believer my parents raised can't save you with your own faith. So, I did find my own faith, you know, that's still what I cling to. I mean, nobody goes as a seminary without having a little bit of a niche. So, but, and especially theology of all things to study. So, I really love that, you know, that personal connection with God. Um, of course, you know, college kind of struggle with that. I was kind of, I was the first time I was on my own and trying to understand how to do with my own faith, but post college, I fell back and low with God and really felt a big calling again, which is where the mission trips came from, the King Advancement Project came from, seminary came from. So, to me, like, you know, that personal relationship is a huge comfort for me, and really gets me through a lot of different, you know, things that dealt with the government, or even, you know, the common stresses of today, like, I rely heavily on my personal relationship with God. And, like, how, like, how do you tend to it if you don't mind sharing my wife and I do, like, a five minute first five thing, we've got a church, you know, it's 40% of the summer, 80% of the winter kind of, you know, like, how do you tend to your faith? I think a lot of it for me is just, I talked to God as, as a father and friend. So, like, throughout the day, I might not have time to pick up my phone and, you know, read the daily Bible verse, but anytime I start thinking about something really deeper, you know, as a lot of my mind, like, I'll just start talking to God. And, you know, we call that praying as well, but I don't just call it praying, because I'm not always asking, you know, a lot of times we associate prayer with any help, or, you know, I need something. To me, it's like, you know, having a hard day. What's up? Talking to God. Yeah, right, right. And there's, you know, there's been different hebs and flows. Like, when I lived in Pakistan, I really appreciated their, their perspective on respecting, you know, their God. So, like, there was nights where, you know, I'd get on the floor and pray. Just like they do to Allah, you know, I'm sure. But I would just get on the floor and pray to God. And it was a, it was a very humbling experience to kind of see that perspective of of the religion. It's definitely a different, it's different out here in Colorado. There's a lot of churches, but Colorado is very like, they don't cling to denominations, which is different for me. Yeah. Because like, the South is, it's, it's, it's very, for sure. Yeah. We're back this, right. Yeah. But Catholic Mary to Lutheran, where I'm from, it was weird, man. You're not here. Like, I've, I've actually stopped asking people, and they invite me to church, like, oh, what's your examination? Because they, they look confused. Like, what is that? Right. I understand. So it's, it's different out here, but I appreciate that because I've gotten to meet so many different people who are believers and followers of Christ. They just, they don't concern themselves as labels, like, oh, I'm a Baptist, they're on a Methodist, I'm a Lutheran. Well, and that was one of the things that drove me away. I was a kind of raised in a, what call a super liberal, barely God-fearing church. But I was always like, you know, if the Christians are so good, why are they throwing fire bombs at each other in the IRA situation here? You know, and stuff like that. And, and why don't they like each other? You know, the Pentecostal, listen to that, whatever. And so that it's one of the things, maybe I appreciate about Colorado the most, is that the churches have more of a sense of unity than disunity. And that's going to be an important time as time goes along. So that's faith. You want to talk any, what else about faith? Do you want to talk anything? I mean, theology, do you want to do like like, history, like, acts kind of starts with a, or St. Stephen's kind of thing when, when they didn't really just don't want him, it's like the two minutes history of the world. But do you want to do a theology overview for those that are like, well, I love whiskey, so I'm listening, but I don't know much about the Bible. Yeah, I mean, so honestly, you know, I have to shield that question a lot with my grandma, because she's very much like, you know, how are you using this for God? To me, like, whiskey opens many opportunities to speak with people that you wouldn't otherwise get. For instance, you know, I always tell, you know, how, again, like in Romans and some of the New Testament, where they're, you know, Paul really hammers in, like, neat people where they are. Like the people who you probably get to talk to in the distillery, you know, over whiskey about theology, because it comes up randomly in conversation, aren't the same people going to walk into the church doors, for sure. So like, I really use a distillery, and I mean, even just whiskey in general about my house as an opportunity, just to meet people where they are. And that first conversation might not get really in depth in theology. It might be the second of the third that we really get to kind of, you know, dive deep in and get vulnerable. And that's the thing is until we're going, well, we're not really going to experience a lot. We're going to protect ourselves, we're going to protect our hearts. So like, and I'll never be answering your theology question, but tip, like, I'm just kind of leading into how, like, I'm using this, this platform as an opportunity for Christ, because a lot of the people I get to talk to aren't people that are walking around, like, hey, what church do you go to? Yeah. You gotta go to them. So why do you still believe? Like, you've been surrounded by people that kind of shunned believe and probably disbelieved and, you know, whatever. You've investigated it. Like, you probably went to theology school because you're like, I'm not so sure if they're saying bullshit. Oh, no. So actually, I, no, again, I started in missional studies because remember the, right, right. So, so you're already very convinced that it was something you wanted to pursue. For sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, because what gives you that strong commitment? I, my heart, God has given me a heart for people. And I think we've talked about it. Yeah. And really, I love people. And I love just like, again, meeting them where they are. Even when I was a kid, like, I would see homeless people, and I would ask my grandma for a couple bucks to give them. Yeah. And because of that, you've wanted to serve, but like, either priced as real or he's not. Yeah. And you've been spending a lot of time sillyly if he's not. Right. Kind of. Like, so why? Why do you believe? I have seen, and I don't mean like physical, you know, you know, people go to Middle East, like, I've seen all these crazy things. I, you know, I've experienced some very interesting things in the Middle East. But personally, like, I've seen the love of Christ. And I felt it in situations where you wouldn't expect it. Yeah. Um, so like providence. Yeah. I don't like using the word blind faith. You know, people throw their own. Oh, we got blind faith. That's, I mean, there's so many historical things that can show us that Christ and the disciples were real. It's not blind. All right. You're setting blind faith. And you childlike has a much better term, I like, yeah, like, open to it actually being real. Right. And I'm a very, as I'm sure you picked up on a very, like, rational and practical. Yeah. If things, that's why I'm pushing you on this a little bit. If things make sense, both historically, emotionally, intellectually, they, observationally, if those things, if there's boxes in each category that are being checked, the rational practical side says, this makes sense. That's all comes razor, right? Yeah. Why are you, you know, objecting to all these? And so like, when we look at the, you know, the history of Christianity, all these different things, and I'm explaining to people, I always love giving the book, the case for Christianity, the case for Christ. Okay. Yeah. It's a great book. I mean, you start off the message and you end with, you know, full fledged believer and it's from uninvestigated background, right? Right. And so I love giving that book or recommending that book to people. But for me, yeah, it's just that, it's that very, I might not have seen all the crazy miracle that people have seen or I might not have experienced some of these things, but my intellectual mix with emotional, mixed with historical and practical, all those things, they've made me to believe that this is a God is who he says he is. Yeah. You know, of course, there's times in my life where I've been able to remember really, and then I've always been reminded of yes, yes, really. Yeah, here's another example of, right. It gets to a point where you've got so many either examples or times in your life where you've experienced that where you might not always be able to explain it best, but you know, I mean, it's just like with anything in our lives. When we say we know something's true and we hold that to be true, it's going to take a lot to give you from that. And so for me, like, I hold all those, I hold these truths to be self-evident. We can just act on the government. I like it. I like it. If you want to. Yeah. If you want to. The souls are like the perfect to be, like, they just, you know, they explain Christianity and the most basic things. The five what? The five souls? Oh, yes. I'm familiar with barely. Do you want to share? The Calvin, oh, you're going to put me on the spot? I'm not. Yeah. I don't know. You're the one with the theology degree, man. Yeah. Well, I'm always getting to talk to you. Fair enough. Let's talk family. Instead, you can, you can Google on your phone if you want to in the meantime, just so we can drop some knowledge bombs in a moment. But we'll, we'll, faith family and then we'll hit politics last because I've got a couple of questions for you based on your background. So we talked about your mom raising you guys and you spent summers with your dad and stuff. And then I kind of deviated. Do you have siblings, brothers, sisters? I do. So I've got very interesting family actually. So I have a brother who, which I think biologically is considered a half brother because he's from my step-dad and my mom, but he's a brother. Sure. We're super close. Interesting. It's about 13 years apart. So he's like midway through college. And I'm, you know, getting old. I'm getting old and freaky. A lot of those preach here at the back of my knees. And then I've got what I would call a brother, quote unquote, like adopted. He's my best friend in my whole life. We basically took him in. Your mom adopted him? I mean, not, we haven't, it's not an official, right? But it's like, you know, we've always, he and I have basically been joined in the Hipsons, but I think elementary school, to be honest. How many times has he stayed at your house? Thousands. We lived together in college. Very close. And then I've got a step sister, not as close. She's from my stepfather. We've come out a few times, but not so much. So it's really my two brothers who are. Okay. I like to do sometimes one word descriptions for close family. You want to try it for your two brothers? Sure, let's go for it. Yeah. How about the younger one first? Yeah. One word description. Firey. Because he's in the middle of college. So he's really filling out how to form his own opinions. And so he leans real heavy into the first opinion. You know what I mean? Right, right. So he'll text me things and I'm like, man, you let's, hey, here's a couple other perspectives. I want to be right. So I, I do see a lot of myself. And when I was in college in him, like, hey, this is what I believe. And I'm full force believing it. And you know, now I'm a little mature. I've traveled the world. I've started different companies like I looked for other perspectives to counter. I mean, even when I watch the news, I watch, like, you know, far left wing news, just to see what's going on. It's a different perspective. Totally. And it kind of balanced. Yeah, you have to try. You have to be really intentional to get a perspective. It's not like you grasp those concepts. I mean, even when I was going in seminary, like I would look at other religions and study other things, you don't grasp those, you don't lean into them, but you understand, like, oh, these, you know, these people are coming from this to thinking. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And it should help you be able to have conversations with people at the very least. I hope so. So, um, and then, uh, your brother from another mother. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And what's his name if you don't mind sharing? Neil. Neil. Yeah. And so one word description for me. For me, nothing alike. So, like, I'm five, nine, white. He's six, three, black, nice, inseparable. When we were younger, people were like, look, we would just get picked on all the time. It was great. I can't believe I really don't worry about it. Right. One word to describe him. Oh, man, boy. Interesting. And where's he at? What's he up to right now? He moved back to Alabama, so he's in the same town as Troy. Not Troy, but not too far, I suppose. Yeah, a little farther north. So I'll actually get to see him in September when I'm going home to most of my family. Have your family been out to see the distillery? Not yet. My dad has. He's the only one that's stuck in trouble. Yeah. So Neil was in the Air Force 2, did his time, got out and moved back to Alabama, got married. So now I'm just pushing to have some kids. I can be an uncle. Right. I'm sure he's probably pushing you to find a woman so that you can have a family. He said, I'm never going to have kids. I'm like, yeah, you said you're never going to get married. And that was your groom's been last year. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And you want to give a shout out to mom? Oh, man. Yeah. Mom is definitely like the rock. She's the one that raised me when it was just me and her and taught me that she still keeps me in line. She's out in Alabama. Oh, good old Alabama. So we seen her too. Yeah. Awesome. Politics. Oh, yes. Like one of the things I was thinking about when I was thinking about security stuff earlier, because we don't need to just like politics is a big thing. But two things that have occurred to me lately in the news that are big in the news, there have been four suicides of the police that have that defended the Capitol in that time, which it's surprising to me that there's so many. And then Kuma, you know, we're talking about sexual harassment and bad things and New York's governor is in either for the fight of his life or a quick departure or one of the two, right? And so not to talk about either of those things necessarily, but give me so because that it's kind of surprising to me that CNN has shared that headline that for like I think they're trying to show how bad the January 6 riots were. But to me, it's like, well, maybe these guys felt really bad about like the role of this weird thing that happened. I have no idea what's going on. It seems like the Pelosi pony show to me. And so I don't know. I just I just read the headlines from here and there and try to figure it out in a little bit. Let's get a refill on whiskey and let's do it. Okay, let's go pause. We go back to them too. Like, like, what would you say you are in terms of a political observer? Like, where would you place yourself? What's your background? You studied it, right? And civil government is like, I imagine you to be a civil servant at some point. Oh, what's his name? Our former governor, right? Mike, you had a brewery and you're like, well, this delivery is like the cool new way to be a governor, right? Is that where you headed? I would love. So when I was in high school and I still have a ton of friends that continue to push me into civil service and the political spectrum, I used to really want to be, you know, Senator congressman or something like that, which it still has a question of only, you know, 34. It's just not on my radar right now. I would definitely say I lean on paper and ideology. I'm probably more of a libertarian. Yeah, strongly believe in the constitution and, you know, the things that we've established, but, you know, don't try to make people do stuff. Exactly. Which is why COVID has been a very interesting time for my psyche because it's like, why are we being so forceful with some of these things? How people are doing what they want? You know, when I was growing up before, I really understood politics, the ideology, and different ideologies. You would probably assume I was, you know, super conservative because I'm from the South, blah, blah, blah, but Baptist, whatever. Right. On paper, I checked all those boxes. Like, oh, yeah, Mike's probably this guy. You know, I'm really middle, definitely libertarian. Like, you know, I understand and agree with a lot of these policies, and especially like the founding fathers and stuff, but I'm very much for it. You know, let people make their own decisions. People don't do what they're going to do. Right. And I want to too sometimes. Right. And there's a lot of people, you know, throw different turns around for what America is, but, you know, we're supposed to be found out on the idea of we have these, these parameters. I like to throw that right. It's a middle very different. We have these parameters that we can operate as US citizens, but in between the left and right limits, like we should be able to do what we want to do within the bound of the law. It's just getting those parameters are coming closer and closer. It seems like every I totally got a I, so my, my blog from last month was based, part of it was an apology to my staff, my wife, et cetera, that I had chased away with my may blog, which was like on vaccines, liberty, and the free rider problem. I'll let you read that for yourself in the form of your opinions. And, but in this one, do what you say you're going to do. And at some point, like last June, July, when I was saying, I'm not sure we should really follow Black Lives Matter Inc. I think what they're suggesting will make Black Lives worse in the long run. And people didn't like that. They were like, guys racist. I'm like, no, I love Black people, you know. And long story short, I said I wouldn't touch the third rail topics. But then I was like, but there's so many now. I can't not talk about interesting things without it being a third rail just about. So do you want to talk about some of them? Sure. Let's do it. You want to talk about like the biggest thing that people vaccine passports would talk about that. So I actually, when I was in Georgia, I taught a couple American government classes. And one was during an election year. And one of my assignments, I told you know, if you believe that if you believe right, your assignment is to pick someone else on the other side of the island to do some research. Because I think what our society is lagging these days is free thing. Namely, that's what we call our events is free things. They can't they can't form their own opinions. And I don't mean that they're unintelligent or, you know, ignorant of what I mean is they hear something and they take that for face value. I think there's no commercial, an ESPN commercial where, you know, a guy doesn't know anything about sports, but all he does is watch the ESPN highlights. And so they said he's talking out of the side of his neck like he doesn't know sports. He doesn't know these things. He's regurgitating information. I think we're sadly in a state of people are just repeating what they've been told or what they've heard. And they're taking it as their opinion and they're marching forward without any research. And then when I say research, you know, I'm studying my PhD, I don't mean, oh, let's do some Google searches. Right. Like research is understanding your sources. Like who is writing this? What are their biases? Where are they? What is their sources? You know what I mean? Like there's third party, you know, they're not just writing this. Otherwise, it's an op-ed. They're being facts from other places. Where are they getting their facts from? Like that's true research. People do not do that easy. It lets you're in an educational environment where you and I like we're intellects. Like we will do that. We'll take the time to do that. Most people won't. They'll say, oh, Facebook, I saw this article, which one click. We're one right society days. Well, and that's one of the things I observed last summer when I got in trouble first or second time. I can't remember. But was that like I might kind of speak authoritarian in some of these topics and stuff. But I've been studying like starting sophomore year of high school. I read every Wall Street Journal, New York Times and Newsweek and US News and World Report, cover to cover every week. And it's not like I was fascinated by Paul. I just want to understand the whole thing. And then I took ethics and economics and sociology and a lot of extra roots of American popular music. And I'm going to student kind of of the world. And you don't know why it's not fair for a transgender now female. But that was 35 years of male to compete in the Olympics against females and take a scholarship away from it. And I'm sorry, but it's wrong. We're in a very challenging and I have a homophob or something if I say that. Like like we just get I mean everything is a label like it. If you have an opposing opinion on anything, it seems like in today's society, if you are the opposition of the majority of the outing of the majority, it's the loudest opinion for the opposition of the loudest opinion you're immediately labeled. Where there's not many opportunities anymore to have free flowing conversation to stimulate, you know, open thing. Some of my favorite friends are very liberal. And sometimes they're really hard to talk to because they seem right. You know, and I love that. It's because it's stimulus like you and I. That's right. We like that challenge to go and learn something new. Most people do not like that challenge. Right. It's very easy and comfortable to continue to step it with a fork. Yeah. I mean, if you don't have to, I mean, really, if you don't have to go reading right and do all these things, yeah, it's easy. I just want to continue to maintain that position. Whereas you and I probably find like mental simulation and I've been challenged. I'm going to go read another book or read a bunch of articles. I'm going to go understand this point. Because if anything, it's not that it's going to change my opinion. I'm going to understand the other person's side and their perspective and it's going to reinforce it. It's the steelman argument kind of in comparison. And most people don't really understand that logic that you're rarely going to be changed. But your mind is going to be changed. It's good that your mind's going to be opened, but you will reinforce your position. Like you're totally oh yeah, you're going to lay in some back, you know, as soon as you get challenged hard, you're going to build those defenses. They don't want to be challenged. In case they don't want to be mentally challenged, visit. They don't want to. I'm too busy. They're too comfortable. They're too busy. Too comfortable and too busy. So tell me one of my theories is that like 30 to 40% of Americans really are libertarians. They just too scared to be part of the losing team that like it's Joe Jorgens and on and stuff. Yeah, I think that there's more people that are truly libertarians and they realize because the either, you know, there's this whole thing I've got to throw my boat in one of the two primaries. All right. Throw my boat away. And that's even worse. Yeah. And, and you know, honestly, even as a self-proclaimed libertarian, I haven't I've built a libertarian in state and local politics. I'd yet to vote libertarian and national elections simply because you don't want to throw your boat away. Well, it's not even that because I, you know, I really don't think my one boat matters for either or, but I have stood more firmly with the bigger, political platforms that either party is. And I'm not a street ticket voter by any stretch. Heck, I've voted for democratic presidents, democratic governors. It's really what I believe that they will stand for. And it's not like their platform. I do some pretty deep research. Yeah. What do you really believe? Not what you're telling me. I would say I'm like historically if it took every vote I've cast, I'm probably like 50% Republican, 25% Democrat, and 25% other. Right. Like libertarian constitution. I voted for what's his name, the Walmart guy, the first one. That was my first election, Ross Perot. So, so anything that you would like prescribe or subscribe or for those that haven't spent a lot of time like studying the challenge of politics and and like people have suggested that I stay away from politics completely. But I'm like, but business is economics and politics is like the tip of the spirit business. And I can't not talk about what I think is going to be harmful or beneficial to business. And so that's politics, kind of. It definitely is politics and economics definitely intertwined, especially at the small business level, right? Like we're voting for policies that affect this, you know, day in, day out, totally. Well, unemployment stuff these days. And that was something that was on the Colorado doc. It was, you know, the unemployment pay with COVID, I mean, if you don't at least understand that as a small visit owner, how, how are you mixing that into your business decisions, right? Like if you're like, oh, I don't care about unemployment, no, okay, you've got employees. So they're gonna either claim unemployment or the state's gonna like you got to pay unemployment wages. Like you should at least know what's going on. The hardest thing is so, you know, like you and I, it's easy for me and you say, hey, go read this book and might go read this book. Like we'll go do it. The problem is that's a time-consuming task. Like you and I can probably consume a book in a day or two. Most people will consume a book in a week. How rodable goes at 1.25? Yeah, I don't know. I can't read very good. That's not like New Yorkers. It's all real fast. But honestly, like what we need to do, especially as, I wouldn't, you know, as the layman, I would say, could do this as an encouragement, but as a small business owner, you need to be informed about what's going on. I mean, I don't even mean just like, you know, lawnmower, leveling, or four columns, like statewide, national wide, because what's happening nationally will trickle down to the city. So what is happening nationally? Like we're, we've got a lot of stuff going on right now. Like, there's not a lot of deaths in COVID, you know, the, it's a mystery. Like we'll, we'll be there be COVID, Lambda COVID, Gamma Gamma, Zappa, you know, like, and nobody, right? Nobody knows really where the, that was the joke I read today. Or they're like, well, we started with the UK variant and the Indian variant and stuff. And they're like, wait, isn't that just kind of like the Wuhan flu? We can't say that. And so we can't say those things. This and, or I just learned the Spanish flu was apparently from Kansas. I didn't know that. Yeah, titles don't mean anything. They're not regionally associated. Yeah. So, but what, like, what would be some of the fixes that we could do to, because I assume you agree with me that our national, especially government system is kind of limping along at a shell of its once capable self. Yes. It's honestly, it's tough to watch. It's hard to watch, especially being a lover of government and US politics. It's really hard to watch some of these things because when I, a lot of times when I see what's going on, I also, because I've lived overseas and I've studied, you know, different cultures, I look at this with a lens of someone viewing US politics. And it's like, what do we look like to these, like, to the other nations, especially to like Russia and China, these other big players who are just, you know, they've got to be waiting on us to just miss that. Totally. And it's like, you guys can't even get it together on a mask policy or a vaccine. And now you're telling people, there's, oh, we've got the vaccine. Now you've got to go back to mask. And people, I think that they come in. Oh, I think there's going to be so much pushback. The vaccinated, especially, they're going to be like, I'm not wearing my mask. Fuck off. And so then it's funny, because then you're effectively switching cameras. Right. Those were the people from the beginning of the way you're mask. And now they're like, I'm not wearing mask because I'm vaccinated. Yeah. Well, you got a vaccine that had zero research in those things. It's like, just get it because the government said get it. And so, and that's another thing. Like, I was on the phone my grandfather on the way here. He's vaccinated. I'm not vaccinated. I'm not by two choices. One, because I don't think the vaccine is ready for me to take. There's a lot of more research. Yeah. And two, I fall into VA care. I literally got my letter three days ago that said you're eligible. Right. And the VA is like, oh, yeah, well, we've done all these other things. I guess you can do it. I've been, so I haven't had the option to get it. I told people a few months ago, it's like, I'm waiting to see if they make me. And if they don't make me, then I might, but it kind of feels like they're going to, they're making me. And so I'm probably going to not. Falling into the libertarian thing, you know, months ago, when we got to open back up, I told my entire staff, I sent out, you know, a company email. If you want to get the vaccine, I'm not only what I support you. I'm a pay for it. Right. Because there's a $20 fee that they got to, you know, they say it's free, but there's like a fee to, you know, put in. I said, the company will pay for it. We will support you in whatever you want to do. Right. And we'll get time off to go get it, whatever. That's exactly right. One of my guys got it. He's okay. I mean, the next day off, you got it. I will support you. I'll make sure that you're comfortable. Yeah. We'll make sure that you're good to go. That, why, why is that not a widely grasped concept? Like you can do this or you can do that. Right. If you want to do that, you're all of some of the enemy of the state. You know, I was telling my, my grandfather on the way here, I was like, because he's like, you know, we're vaccine. The Natalie got the Delta variant. I'm like, yeah, we deal with that every year. It's called the flu. Every year, there's a, there's a different strain that we're trying to combat. Like we never, we battle the flu. We're going to shut down the world for the flu. Yeah. And every year, we have to get our booster shots. We have to get our flu shots. It's not a one and done. Right. Oh, it's a medic. I feel like it's the beginning of a really bad period of the medical industrial complex. Like where we have to do all these medical things, which acts effectively as a drain on us, just like the military industrial complex did does always. Let's talk about that. Well, the funny thing is that a real thing. The funny thing to do with the vaccines that before jumping is, you know, so many, what are they called, the anti-vaxxers are now all of a sudden like pro-vaxxers. All right. I'm not getting any vaccines. My kids aren't doing this. I'm not doing this and now all of a sudden it's like, well, the propaganda worked. The propaganda worked. The Delta variant scared the shit out of people and they're signing up and record numbers. That's that's perfect media. Please. It's fear or not. Right. I'm not sure what happened. Like either people took an evaluative decision and said, hmm, for me, I'm like, I'd rather have the natural immunity. That seems like the good stuff to me from everything I read and my own profile physically and actually whatever. Well, and I saw, so I saw a really cool, and my friends, but my friends dad died. Like the day after he got the vaccine. Like everybody does. But yeah, there's only 332 people that actually suffered and really, you know, and so whatever. Anyway, I digress. So there's a, there's a really good process on Facebook from a friend of a, because you know, there's this argument now with like, because of vaccines changing and there's always variants. And people like, oh, science this and science that and she said, she made a post. It was like, science isn't definitive. It's a continuing process. It's a very, yeah. We're learning. Yeah, science is a, it's theoretical. We think one thing, we test it, we agree to it, and then we evolved with we continue to learn and grow. I absolutely agree with that. Science is an evolution of knowledge. But I'm not going to be on the first cart, the first train of the evolution. Well, that was my free rider problem. I got an essay. I was like, thank you guys for all taking this experiment of vaccine. I'm good. I'm just going to see what happens. I will get it. Well, yeah, trust it. When I trust the vaccine and I trust the research, there is zero. We're, we're still just over a year into this whole disease. All of a sudden, we have a vaccine and it's all the, like, you know, it's like, I get the flu shot because, you know, I want to be as guarded as I can. I've never had the flu though. I have. And well, when we were, so when I was in the government, we were required to get the disease. Oh, right. So like, I got the flu shot. And but like, this COVID thing, to me, it's like, it's so fresh and so new. And we had so many loopholes to get it out. Right. Like, we're still going through the, and you're 34. And I'm a high risk. I've got respiratory problems from living overseas. I mean, VA was like, hey, you're high risk. I'm high risk. And I'm still very weary of some of the, and I'm even sorry, we should, we should have maybe a, uh, face family politics and medicine segment of this. Listen, faith family politics, human health. I don't know. Yeah. It's got an alteration. So like, let's jump off of the COVID, because frankly, it's only part of, but it is, it largely boils down to, are we a collective or we all individuals that should try to make right decisions for ourselves? And so are there things that can make our union stronger better in your perspective? Absolutely. But doing the individual, individualistic versus the collective thing, and when we try to be collective, I think it's a very positive outcome for the union. That's very rare. I mean, when we're recollective, even if I go into the moon, or whatever. I mean, you even look at different wars. So war, not media. You were collective respectively. We weren't collective as a union. No, totally not. I mean, in even most wars that we've entered, it's been collective in pockets. It's not like, when have we ever been collective as an entire union? Yeah, when we separated from England. Oh, here's one is as a libertarian, is Abraham Lincoln the hero president of the forever? Or is he kind of the guy that made the South do shit that they shouldn't have made them do and let them come around to their own conclusions, eventually? Well, I will say because I've actually just read him. He grew up in the South. I grew up in the South and about two, three weeks ago, I read a book that was very interestingly titled How the South Won the War. And it was a play on ideology versus, you know, practicality. Yeah, the North obviously won, but if you really look at some of the policies and some of the, you know, the things that are going on, the ideology of the South is still very much in play. I'm not saying I agree. Yankee libertarian type ideology kind of is the sprout, maybe a little bit. I don't know. I'm thinking Duke's a hazard a little bit. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's definitely, so I would probably, like I'd not, I like nothing of the ideas of slavery. Like there never should have been a man owned by another man or a daughter. Yeah, because even if we tied that back to the faith part, it was not the idea of slavery in, you know, the old, even in the Old Testament, the New Testament was not how we modernized slavery. Totally different. Yeah. And that's why they use most of the terms as servitude. Right. Right. I owed you a debt, so I have to pay that debt. Like there are certain rich people in the world today that if I could just go live with them and hang out and watch their dishes and cook for them and stuff, I'd be totally game. Yeah, you know, it's a different kind of economic relationship. Right. An American slavery definitely was the coup de croutes. If this is not right, I agree. I think the problem is, especially in societies, we pick and choose what banners we want to fly versus trying to make, like, collectively as a union. Hmm. But I mean, how many people, especially in today's generation, which is sad, when we're still a super young country, what, 255, 257, so like, young country historically, and we're still crawling out of the feeling of slavery, but everything is, is hyper. And it was worth it. You know, when I really think about it, probably, in a lot of ways, the Civil War was worth it. But like, I listened to a series of podcasts recently that was talking about the end of the Civil War, where they basically sent union soldiers down through Atlanta and other parts of Georgia, like burning and raping and killing all the women and children that were there, because their soldiers were all off in the front elsewhere. Yeah, there's some very interesting. You know, that was kind of a lot of what succumbed the south was, oh, it looks like these dirty fuckers will do whatever it takes. Yeah. It's kind of like the nanny state gone super wrong. I mean, I think about it too, like, geographically. We're one of the only countries now, I was on a bike, or I mean, every other day, but the guy from England that he was making mention is that we're on the only country. We have 50 states, right, 54 territories. Everyone, if you go anywhere else in the world, those are independent countries. Right. So like, we have a very diverse way of thinking and acting. And so there's we have to loosen the bonds of federal government is what I believe, although I will lose the union. We definitely have to go back to the original way of thinking like we have the federal government needs to be supportive of the states. And it's not the well-being of the state. Right. Like, for Biden to call for the resident nation of New York's governor. Like, that's bullshit. The people get to call for the resident nation. He's not the boss of the government because he's the boss of the Democratic Party. Neither was Trump the boss of the Republican Party. He's an identifier. The party isn't the boss. And that's, I think, one of the big problems in our country. I'm trying to be funny over the states, totally. Because people like all of the states are independent. Yeah, on paper, but not at all. When the government gives him $100 million a year to fix the roads, the governor's not going to, you know, denounce the president and not get the money in the road. Utah had a bill recently, some years ago, that was like, how about all national income taxes get paid to the state and the state will forward them based on how they said go into the top and trick on that. Right. Trickle through to the top. Yeah. That's not, I mean, it's even more the right way, kind of the way the, the Confederation was designed. Well, again, I've been overseas and lived everywhere. And I still question the amount of money that we send before in governments. I get it. We're big, the world's big brother in the police. And we got to have world peace. But at the same time, like, we have so many homegrown problems. And we're spending billions. Right. If, yeah, that's a whole another tight guess that probably. All right, let's, let's wrap it up. So the local experience. I warned you of this, the craziest experience that you're willing to describe in a public forum. And if you want, you can have like a shorty night and a long year, whatever you can do, military stuff. Like, I wanted to ask earlier, have you faced like active battle? Like, have you been, had bullets whizzing and stuff? Or is that not really part of your experience? Not, I can see how anxious it's appropriately. In different regards I have. Yes. Situations like that. Yeah. Not officially, but in your defensive postures, you've faced some crazy ass shit. Right. In Pakistan, perhaps, in other places. How are those craziest you believe? Oh, good. I mean, it was wild, but yeah, great food. Yeah. Good. So, so what's your local experience? The craziest thing I've encountered? Yeah, Clay, is it create a story of your lifetime that you were willing to share? How am I bringing to that? I guess one of the most interesting experiences when I lived in Pakistan, so it was right around the Trump election and they were a very pro Trump. Like, they really supported him because they weren't supportive of Hillary just from cultural reasons. Yeah. And we'll leave it at that. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. A female leader was not something they were ready to express. And then also, they actually really appreciated. They, when I would ask them, like, why would they support, why would they unfair Trump at the time? Was because he was not, they kept saying he's not a career politician. Like, he's different. Yeah, he's different. He's different from the outside. Yeah. So they really like that. Yeah, the devil you don't know versus the devil you know is the way I characterize this. This step was in President Trump hit him with some sanctions. Pakistan specifically, they're like, what the f is going on right there? So they, when he did that, culturally, they kind of were like, wait a minute. Now they nice act and like everybody else. And he's just hitting this with sanctions and blah, blah, blah. So anyway, the country basically not turned against the US, because there's not a lot of us there. We're kind of there looking at it, but they weren't supportive of us any more. Yeah, yeah. And so my time in that country was ending up and it was time for me to go home, right when all that craziness happened. He'd been elected, but then he hit him with sanctions. So their official stance was they're not supporting any US personnel actions in the country. Interesting. And you know, I'm trying to get home. So long story short, basically, I made some really good, high ranking, powerful people in Pakistan. And I played those cards. I was like, dude, I've been here a year. I'm ready to go home. I need help. And so essentially, they smuggled me out of my little location. That was that they smuggled me out on the Pakistani plane, got me to the embassy, got me to the airport. The effect of I was smuggled out of the country to get back home, because I was like, I really need to get home. And so they helped me get back home when the Pakistani government was not even responding to the US government in the country. Interesting. So yeah, I had to basically be smuggled out of the country so I could get home. So I'll be, I still talked to some of those guys and I appreciate them and all they did. Will you go back to Pakistan? Oh, if I had the opportunity, I would. Amazing people, really cool culture. You'll have to make the opportunity. The best food I've ever had, hands down. Yeah, it's, I mean, that side of the world is not what the media portrays it. For sure. That's what I should imagine. Not at all. I mean, even some of the crazy things I saw there, like, I don't want to tribute that to them. Man, so I just thought of we were in Turkey and Ephesus and toured there, the old sites or whatever. And we had this bus driver and I always engage people in, and he said, you know, when, when the America, America wanted to have all these troops and whatever for the, the first desert storm and stuff. And then we, we did the things we bombed and this and that. And then we totally hung Turkey out to dry in that region. And then we did it to Afghanistan just now with the, with all the interpreters and stuff. And like, oh, the Taliban have been in charge for four months and they're killing your, you guys regularly. I guess we'll try to get some of you out here and honor the promises that we made. Like, that's, it's been a really hard thing for me as a citizen to see is that whatever the bureaucracy or the politics or whatever is, like, I hate to see America not honoring its promises. Yeah, and that stuff, because I worked with some of those interpreters and they're, they're great people and they, they sided with us because they believe in what we were there to do. Yeah. And so, they're free thinkers. And they're, and they're, and they're realm. They were free thinkers. For sure. And I think ideologically, that's where we continue to get stuck in this evolution of, you know, we keep having to engage in these wars is because we get people to believe in what we're doing. And then when we leave, because we think we're done, we leave them on the drive. Right. And so then that generation was like, why the heck did I have the Americans? Like, what have I, what have I got to show for? My family's been killed by the Taliban, being tracked back. Right, my daughter didn't get an education that I hoped that she would, whatever. Yeah. And to me, it's all I run like you know, you know, especially this administration, you're like, open borders, everybody can come and they're like, oh, yeah, you helped us when this war began. Right. Your first is what we should be saying. Come on, really, really? Those are the people like you 100,000, you 200,000 people, you saved our troops asses. Right. Yeah. Oh, hands down for sure. There's been interpreters that have been pivotal to my life. We wouldn't have known what was going on in so many places. No. Yeah. So that's, that is personally tough to see as well. I do share in that sentiment because, you know, we see these people coming across the border that we have no idea what they're going to contribute to society. And we've had people who've been in trouble. But we know they already showed great character in these guys, you know, and thoughtfulness. Essentially it plebs their allegiance to us. Right. And our cause put their family in danger for them. Sorry, I can't hear you. All right. Well, to me, like those are the people we should be reaching out to and say, hey, we will do what we, what we'll get you here. Again, playing with the sketch of family. 100% and not like, oh, yeah. Well, the southern borders are open. We'll just like Willie Nilly, whoever we want. Like, I'm not opposed to that, but come on. Let's reward the people who have put their lives in the line for us. Well, I mean, that goes just, I mean, look at the beginning, right? I mean, you got people like me, I'd rather better and put our lives on line. And we can barely get health care. So why would we expect that from foreign? Yeah. Yeah. No, we got a bunch of five people. We'll have to spend a lot of time together. So Mike, how do people find you if they're trying to find you and learn more about Copper Skye distilling? Yeah. If you want to reach out personally, my email is Mike at CopperSkyedDistillery.com. Socially, all of our handles are at Copper Skye Lama, on Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, I'm hoping both easy to find you if you want to. Pretty much, yeah. I've tried to be responsive. That's another thing about how I run my business is that. It runs me right at some times, but I really try to be responsive to people and just connect, you know, personally. Fair enough. Well, thanks for being here. I, you know. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Locoh Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear, and founder of The Locoh Think Tank. If you or someone you know would be a great guest for our show, or if you'd like to learn more about our small business on our peer advisory chapters at Locoh Think Tank, please visit our website at locohthinktank.com or email us at connectatlocohthinktank.com. That's LOCOthinktank.com. If you've been enjoying this series, don't forget to subscribe. 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