EXPERIENCE 34 | For Such a Time as This - G.L.O.B.A.L. Justice with Founder Sosamma Samuel-Burnett

Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast with LOCO Think Tank Founder Kurt Bear. Listen in as Kurt digs deep into the business and life stories of business owners and thought leaders at different stages of growth from all walks of life. Launching and growing anything can be a crazy experience, so expand your thinking and level up your understanding of what it takes to find success in the world of free enterprise. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear, and I'm joined today by SoSoma Samuel Burnett, and SoSoma is the founder and president of Global Justice, and Global Justice just has an amazing mission and SoSoma has an amazing heart, and I'm just really proud to have her on today. Will you please just set the stage for our listener, SoSoma, that don't know anything about you, our Global Justice? Well, first of all, thank you, Kurt, for this opportunity to share about our work and to be on your show. I know it's a great show. So Global Justice is a non-profit organization where international and we are based in Loveland, Colorado, and work throughout the country and throughout the globe. We are fundamentally a resource. We're there to help individuals and organizations learn more about justice issues, engage in those issues, and make an impact in our world. What we usually say in terms of our sort of key vision is that we are here to inform, impact, and inspire the generations to learn, lead, and do justice. And why do we think justice is so important? Because if you think about it, all the issues that we see in our communities, in our world, somehow come back to this idea of justice. It's about fairness, it's about goodness, it's about doing what's right. And if we did more of that, have more fairness and goodness and right, we would actually have fewer of the concerns that we have in our world. We wouldn't have this huge prison population in the freest country in the world. Exactly, and human trafficking at an all-time high, we wouldn't have the levels of poverty, the refugee crisis, you name it, and you don't have to go very far to find the injustices. They can be right here in our local home communities or it could be across the globe. Sure. Well, you've got to tell me about where the founding of the organization, where the seeds started, and what kind of actualize that, and then we'll work our way up to what you're up to today, I think. But I got to know about the vision first. Well, my story about global is really personal. So I think it might be helpful for me to step a little bit of a personal stage, even though this is my professional work, right? So I was born in India, and my father was someone who always had this dream of coming to America. It's the classic immigrant story. And because of that dream and because of the kind of person he was, which was a real visionary type person, he knew that someday he would. However, back in the 1940s, when he was a young boy, the idea of going to America was like going to the moon, right? It just didn't seem possible. But then in 1960s, we did put a person on the moon, right? And that inspired my father. And by 1971, he was in the United States. Okay. So the first leg of my story. We're going to come back to India by the way, but yes, please do because lots of talk about there. But so the first part of my story really starts with that sense of vision and opportunity and promise that was represented by my father. Then when we came here, we first started our life in Canada and then ultimately landed in Minnesota. And that's where I call home. And how old were you at this time of transition? When I got to the US, I was 10 in Canada, I was four. So these experiences of being in these different places, I think, sealed for me this interest in the world, you know, being in different places. And then while I was in Canada, while Canada's a lovely country, it was going through a lot of things at the time we lived there. And there was a high degree of discrimination, especially against people who look like me. Really? And so we experienced a few. Were you part of a large wave of immigration of India? Yes, that's part of it. Okay. But it's not just from India, from other regions, that, you know, Pakistan, from Middle East, places where people have this sort of look, right? So I think there's a lot of socioeconomic reasons behind discrimination, but the fact is it's personal. So some of the things I experienced as a child never left me. And I realized, you know, I need to be a voice and be a voice for the voice list because maybe there's something in this that I have to do in the future. So between that sort of vision of my dad and then this conviction that we need to do better, you know, in terms of how we engage with each other, my education became a vehicle for me to move forward in these areas. So I had some great educational opportunities in Minnesota and then ultimately went to Georgetown University in Washington DC. Incredible international place, right? And I studied all these great things about the globe. And about two years into my education, the Berlin Wall came down. So all these things I learned about, you know, these superpowers. These are blocked. These are blocked. It all melted away. So it's also this learning curve about how quickly the world can change. And so sometimes the things we learn, you know, it's valuable to learn, but we also have to be flexible to realize that we're in this very evolving place and space. So those are some pivotal things that I think shape who I am and why we ultimately landed here with global. But later I went on to become an international human rights advocate. I worked at the United Nations. I worked at various nonprofit organizations in the country. And just did some really wonderful work on lots of topics from race discrimination to issues of poverty, the death penalty. I mean, it was a wide variety of things. I also had some emphasis in Latin America. So I had a chance to work in Latin America. So all these experiences were great. But then I had a curve ball, which was my husband. I met him. He was in the Air Force at the time. And that led me to make a big change from my work in Washington, DC to moving to Mississippi of all places where he was based. So we spent a year there and I had some remarkable experiences. And where did you meet him? Well, it was kind of a long story short between friends that we just had mutual friends. And we had no idea. But my high school friend went into the Air Force and it came his Air Force housemate. Interesting. So that was how you got to meet this girl and brought all these flyboys up to Minnesota. I happened to be there with some friends. And we had, you know, that one occasion to meet. I wanted to ask, where in Minnesota did you go to like the Minneapolis, the urban part of Minnesota? Well, we're in the suburbs in Lake Minnetonka, beautiful, area. But I also spent a lot of years in Minneapolis, St. Paul, because, you know, I mentioned my undergraduate school, but my law school experience was actually in Minnesota. And was that experience of kind of, I guess racism called a duck a duck? Was that, did that continue or did as you got into the upper crust or whatever of academia and stuff? Was that, did that go away more or how did that? I never experienced what I experienced in Canada. But what I did do is translate what others were experiencing. So working on issues related to women or people of color or even people who are just, you know, poor and, you know, face various kinds of, you know, disparities, you know, and they're treated. I just had a reference point. But a lot of my work focused on international human rights. So ultimately, when you use human rights as your lens, it's all about not just who is being discriminated, but what are the reasons behind that? What can we do to change that context? Interesting. So can carry with me then to the next chapter. Yeah, so, you know, I, you know, I want to go back and cover this all. Yeah, there's a lot of fun. But what I want to hear this from the family, especially ultimately, then what my husband and I got married, we moved to California, because that's where he was from. And he was a YouTube pilot in Northern California, which was an amazing opportunity for him. But immediately after he was trained up in the YouTube, 9-11 happened. And so that man, he was overseas over 280 days out of the year. Well, it was a really intense, remarkable time. And I had been working in all sorts of different fronts doing what I do at that point. I was running a large criminal defense association. And then I, and you had some littles at home too. Well, I almost did. I kind of set a prayer, you know, I'm a person of faith and just said, you know, I think I need to step back from all this professional activity. The world is changing. And if we're ever going to have a child, maybe we need to create a context for that. So I stepped away from my work. But immediately I got two opportunities that I never expected. One was to build a missions program for my church. Because of the international background, that was a great opportunity. And that continues to flourish. They're still doing great things in different parts of the world. And then the other was to build a public policy program for a university that was shifting from San Jose to the Sacramento area where we lived. And never did I imagine going into academia. I'm this advocate, right? I loved working on these international issues. But all of a sudden, I had an idea presented to the university. Their response was, well, this is a great idea. Can you build it? And I had to do some soul searching. And I realized, you know what, I've had some interesting experiences. I've had some interesting education. Maybe I should apply that to the next generation. So that allowed me then to start moving forward to build this program. To build global justice. The public policy program. And that program then allowed me to start, you know, sort of developing a new generation. So now fast forward to global justice. All of those things I just described to you, the personal path, the inspirations, the big pivotal moments that happened. They are what global justice is all about. Ultimately, when we moved here to Colorado, whole another story, I had to do a little bit of a review of my experiences and say, well, now what? Do I go back into academia? Do I go back to advocacy? Do I do something else? And I got the idea that, you know what, there's a lot of great advocacy organizations. And there are a lot of great educational institutions. What can I do to help them do their work better? And that's where the global was birth. And so this idea that maybe what we need to do is help the community understand these issues and why they should be educated, why they should advocate. And then maybe we can come alongside these groups to do their work better, reach more people and have a greater impact. Well, and especially in the last 12 months or so, in awareness of the definitions of words and what is justice and things like that, there needs to be some voices, I think, that say, this is justice. This is not justice. This is injustice and we stand opposed or whatever. Right. Really good insight. Justice is not a very clearly defined thing. And there are lots of different forms of justice. There's criminal justice, social justice. All these different areas and arenas, we use a term called biblical justice. And we are a faith-based organization that also works with the secular community. And what we do is try to find common ground. And the reason we use that term is we want a broad umbrella, something that allows all of those fields of justice to reside. So we can talk about economic justice and criminal justice and, you know, all these other forms. And it's been a great umbrella because it gives us the flexibility to take on lots different topics. But it also gives us this like a said common ground to work together with others. I was thinking about for such a time as this that probably is meaningful to you as well. But as all these things and you start to look around and you've been in this academia and you're like, there really isn't anybody that's had the same kind of mixture of all these different things and interest and stuff. And so I guess even though maybe I want to focus on mom in a little bit, I guess I'm going to do this global justice thing. You know, you kind of phrase it in a really nice way. It's just this idea that, you know, I can do this. This is what I have to offer. And it might look very different than anything else that's out there, which is good and bad. Sometimes it's good to be unique and sometimes it's challenging, right? But this idea that maybe this is what I'm here for. You know, when we started a global one of our board members who has just been a long time mentor for me and remarkable hero to me, he's 86 years young, right? And at that time, he said, you know, so small, you may not know this, but maybe you stumbled on your life's work. And I said, maybe I feel like it, you know, very possibly. Yeah. So the other thing I was thinking about is my wife calls me a justice enforcer, particularly on the freeway or there's been incidents at concerts and stuff where if I see it in a justice, I just can't really ignore it. Do you have that drive and personality or are you more of a thoughtful reflective type? Well, I think it depends on the context, but you know, I'm not necessarily the justice enforcer in the sense of, you know, when I'm driving on the road. She mocks me in that. Yeah, it's not really a compliment. We always talk about justice and mercy, right? It's a combination. But I think it's more what underlies it. And I think that's what global does differently than a lot of groups. A lot of groups are addressing what I would call the symptoms of injustice. So when you're dealing with let's say human trafficking, that is an injustice, but it's also a symptom of a deeper injustice. So where my heart lies is what's underneath? So a lot of times we talk about global's work is not the leaves and fruit, but the trunk and roots. So we're there to sort of dig in and go, well, why are these things happening and not just trying to address them? I want to touch on the nature of biblical justice as opposed to like you said, economic justice or soldier justice. And I was just thinking about a phrase of Jesus that, you know, if a man does not work, he should not eat or maybe that's Paul. I think it's Jesus, right? And but then you've got certainly Jesus was one of the most active social justice people ever in the face of the earth and came more to the poor and the needy than anybody. Right. Well, there's two, I think key things. One is just in your reference, there's a phrase that everybody knows from the Bible, which is, you know, you can give him a fish or you can teach him how to fish, right? When you give him a fish, eats for a day, when you teach him how to fish, he eats for a lifetime. So a lot of what we're doing is recognizing there are times when you need to give someone the fish because they're not in a position to learn to do anything. They just need that meal and you need to provide that. But if we only did that and never gave them the opportunity to learn how to fish themselves, how to take care of themselves, how to even have the means to do that, then we're missing a bigger thing. And so oftentimes when we talk about justice, we have to be much more holistic than just that that bandaid, just that immediate, right? The media, it's important. God, well, Jesus always cared for people before he ministered to them. So we can't forget that rule, right? But he also ministered to them. It's something bigger than that immediate. The second piece is when we refer to biblical justice, we use a really great verse that everybody can relate to and that's Micah 6.8 that says, and what does the Lord require of you? But to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Now, whether you're a faith person or not, what we always share is those are words to live by because when you do justice, you realize this is an active thing. Now you act justly. You don't just think about it. Justice is a verb. The second piece is loving mercy is really difficult because think about what I just said about human trafficking. You have to love not only the victim, but also the perpetrator. And sometimes that perpetrator was once a victim. So mercy is complex and it's not as easy as just the enforcement, right? Then the third piece is walking humbly, which is this idea that we don't have all the answers. We don't have all the the resources. We may not even know what we're talking about when we talk about justice. But we believe that God does, or if you're not a person of faith, that there is a higher understanding that we can all relate to. Yeah. So why is it that we can look at still a good to try to be attained? Right. And we recognize that good as a people. You know, if you see an injustice, 99% of the people would recognize it as injustice, right? So there is a common thread. So it's this idea like we're here to learn. And so that humility of just pursuing, you know, it's the walk, it's the journey. At Global, we use a lot of imagery of mountains. And that's partly because we're located here in Colorado. But the other reason is because we equate that to seeking justice, you know, to climb a mountain, you have to prepare. Sure. You have to kind of know where you're going, what you're doing, how you're doing it, have the right equipment, right? And then you have to be willing to climb. Right. Well, and like maybe this is part of your thing too, but exodus and, you know, Moses would go up on the mountain and hear from God what he was supposed to do and come back down and have some, maybe not justice to the suspense, but some, here's how we're doing things. Yeah, it certainly is a good imagery for reflection, for sure, you know, a place in space. But I think it's because of perspective, you know, you may or may not make it to the top, but if you were, or even if you help someone else get there, the perspective they have from there is unlike anything you have from the ground, right? So all of this is imagery, but it's still good principles for understanding, like this is what we're talking about when we say justice. It's not a law necessarily. It's not one person's definition or perspective. It's this collective effort toward doing things to move us forward as a people. Yeah. And as a one people, global people, right? So let's talk a little bit about like who you serve in academia and these other organizations and advocacy groups and stuff. And, and maybe a little bit about like how you're funded and operate and what your team looks like. Sure. And then I, then I, we just learn, I just learned that you were born in India. And I just, I want to unfold that and get right to the one-year-old girl in India or whatever you started remembering. So, so global is kind of unique in the sense that we don't have one singular audience, you know? So we work cross generationally. So we work with young people and season leaders. We work cross sectorally. So we work with many advocacy groups and educational groups, but also businesses and, you know, people in policy and health and these other arenas. Our philosophy is we need all of those people, all ages, all sectors to do justice. No one sector can do it all, right? So that's one aspect of our work. The other aspect of our work is we're not single issue. So there are many great organizations, for example, fighting poverty. We don't only fight poverty, we do a lot of other things. And the reason for that is because of what we mentioned earlier. Justice is complex and has a lot of underlying factors. So we want to be able to, to meld all that together, to look at that holistically. And then our team is also interesting because we have a range of people. We have a board that represents different sectors and different regions. Some are in advocacy, some are in business, church, arts. They're not all in Colorado. They're throughout the country and globe. And then we have a staff that's similar where they're in different locations. Some of them are in California. Some are here in Colorado. Others are on the East Coast. A lot of these are grad students and stuff like that sometimes because they're passionate about justice and learning. It's a mix. So we have professionals that, you know, of our post graduates. We have people that started with us and then went on to law school while they're working with us. We have students. It's a real mix and it's a mix of ages. You know, some people have been around the block a few times. Some are just starting that. And do they find you or do you find them? You're telling the law schools here and there different things. These are the kind of people that, well, I don't know about this sort. This is kind of an amazing story, but we have never had a job posting. It's been more of a recognizing that there are people available to us with certain skills and then people approaching us. You know, for example, some people come as interns and they end up being remarkable. And so then they want to stay. And so we find ways for them. Other people are people that I've known many years ago and then all of a sudden we have something and that seems to be the right thing. We started a global market recently where we are able to help lots of organizations share their wares, their artisan wares to be able to support communities in different parts of the world. Right when we're starting it, the very right staff person moved to loveland. Right. So it's been a lot of those kind of special stories, but at the same time, you know, like any other nonprofit, we have to also function as an effective business. And so we have different sources of support. We have individual donors, which are our major part of how we do what we do. It's just people who believe in our work and want to support it. We also do all kinds of services. So one of the services we provided are sort of consulting services where we can come alongside advocacy groups or educational groups, strengthen their work, give them guidance. Another area as we teach, we develop courses, when we teach these courses, we come as sort of the subject matter specialist and go and teach those different topics at different institutions. So we get to be sort of faculty in a lot of places. I can imagine you as kind of like a holding tank of a lot of best practices and you just kind of this hub that knows, oh, I know somebody that's got that well done and some connections there. In kind of putting people together, I know I teach about nonprofit and I teach on specific issues of, you know, human rights and things like that. But we have wonderful other people that can also connect on different topics. I'm not an economist, for example. And so we can draw on economists to come speak on those topics, that kind of thing. Fair enough, fair enough. And do we cover enough to kind of lay the ground on what goal will justice is today? It feels like I think so. I mean, if you have questions, please let me know. Yeah, welcome back. I'm just so eager to zoom back to India and that trip and learn about your family a little bit and stuff. And so you were telling me that you're from a Christian group that's been in India forever as a minority population there. I guess genetically, are you like all blended in with the rest of the Indian population? So the story goes that I am from Kerala, India. And in Kerala, we have a higher concentration of Christians in India than we do in other parts of India is predominantly Hindu, but there's also a lot of other religions, hundreds, and then various derivations from there. But in that context, we're known as what we call Syrian Christians. So there's supposed to be this connection all the way back to the Pasal Thomas, who apparently came to this area from what I know he was actually buried in Goa, which is not far. And the story is that he and that group of people that he traveled with were the ones that brought Christianity to the region converted the people there, you know, intermarried with those folks. And those are my ancestors. And so Christianity goes back many centuries. But it's always a surprise when people meet someone from India and say, well, when did you become a Christian? And I said, well, hundreds of years ago. Yeah, well, and that's, frankly, that was my impression mostly. If there was Christians in India, it was because they moved there or because they converted, you know, because they met some American missionary earlier. Which is, you know, not an unusual perspective, but, you know, our family has a lot of pastors, a lot of missionaries, a lot of people who are deeply in their faith, but also a lot of professionals in other fields. And I think the idea is that I've always believed that you as a person of faith need to play that out in whatever field you're called to. So you don't have to be a pastor or missionary. You could be a business person. You could be a doctor. You could be anything. You still have to be a missionary. Right. You're still working missionally. Right. Exactly. Oh, so tell me about the nature of, like, were you persecuted more as Christians in India or as an Indian looking person in Canada? So at the time we were in India, we didn't face any persecution as it, you know, from a faith perspective, but India does have its degree of persecution and in more recent years persecution against Christians and also persecution against Muslims too, you know, so it's any minority religions there have had a hard go, especially as the country has become a little bit more naturalistic in recent years. But in terms of what I personally face, I think the racial issues were probably more clear for me as a young person when I was in India. I'm sorry, in Canada versus India, but Canada is a different place today. And I don't know that some of the experiences we had when I was a child necessarily be the case. That was kind of new to Canada have large waves of immigrants and stuff like that. Probably at the time. And I think, you know, Canada has evolved. And, you know, it doesn't mean that racial discrimination has left Canada. It's everywhere. Right. And it's not only in America, you know, it's in all places. But I think it changes its sort of nature. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about especially the Minneapolis area when you moved to Minnesota. That was the monks and things were moving there a lot probably in that time. So people thought you were this weird-looking monk or something, probably. Well, I think I kind of blend in wherever I go. But Minnesota, when I was there, and again, this is many years ago, was a pretty homogenous place because it was mostly Scandinavian. Sure. And so there were very few people who liked me. So that talks so funny. They do. But it's, you know, it was also a welcoming place for us. And so as much as there wasn't that sort of apparent racial diversity, there was an openness. I never felt in any way limited when I was there. But that doesn't mean, again, that there was no racial discrimination. I think in the urban centers, and I think you saw that erupting more recently, there were all kinds of concerns. And I think a lot of it has socioeconomic roots, as I mentioned earlier, but not limited to that. But, you know, there's issues with the African-American community. There were issues with the monk community. There was a large wave of Somalis that came in. So there were concerns about how people treated all of those groups. Sure. Yeah, it was rightly so. So thinking about your father and finding a way out of India to Canada when you were four, can you kind of describe the setting in the years leading up to that? Maybe even your family dynamic, what he was doing professionally, how many siblings you have, all that kind of jazz. So most people who come to the United States from India tend to be people who come through education or another professional opportunity. The larger masses of people that are in India don't have that capacity. So we feel very fortunate that my dad had the opportunity. So he came as an engineer. So he actually gained two master's degrees together in engineering, one in industrial, one in electrical. He was a very, very brilliant person and as I mentioned earlier, a real visionary. But he also had to sacrifice a work card. You know, as an immigrant, he came with very little and he had to do those two master's degrees simultaneously because he couldn't afford spreading it out over many years. Right. He worked three jobs. A lot of them were really heavy labor kinds of jobs. He did everything he needed to to get through his education and that positioned him to then bring us. Now we were apart for about a couple of years. So when I was born, he left soon after and my mom was just expecting my brother when he left. So he never actually even got to be there when my brother was born and didn't meet my brother till he was about two years old. So you know, these are sacrifices that he made. That's the word I was thinking about so much. And it's one of the things that the value of sacrifice has kind of changed. Like sacrifice used to be obviously something that you did and had to do to in order to make the future of your world better. Right. But now sacrifice is like, well, what do you mean? I got a sacrifice. Bologna. Well, I think it's partly reflection of the times. You know, we have so much. Yeah. And it's not to say that there aren't people struggling in our country. There are. But the levels that we struggle at in the different contexts that people have, it makes it harder for them to see the types of sacrifice that our predecessors went through. When I think about the turn of the 20th century compared to the turn of the 21st century, the things that people experience that, you know, they had to be so hardy, they had to go through so much. And my dad certainly wasn't in that era, but he was in a different era where you had to just give everything you had to make something happen. No one was going to give it to you. And so I respected that. And I learned from that. Now, there are things that he may have had to experience that I hope no one else has experienced going forward. But the work ethic. Leaving your young child to move across the seas. Exactly. But the work ethic and this idea of the broader purpose of it, you know, because he wasn't leaving his children to leave his children. He was leaving his children temporarily. Yeah. To give them a better opportunity. Yeah. And seeking justice more for them, right? All that opportunity. So that's that transition. Was he in master's programs in Canada? No, he had finished that and then done a job in Canada. And that's what brought us then. We moved all over Canada. So I actually went to 12 different schools by the time I was in fifth grade because we moved every six, eight months. Tell me about that a little bit. Like for like the first stop and some of the different because I'm assuming there's like maybe is it oil industry chasing or what was his career? Working in different project management types of roles for different industrial projects or eight months projects. So he did a wide variety of things. But I think one of the interesting related stories was my mom because when he was going through schooling, she was taken care of two little ones in this little village in India. But when it was time for her to move and to meet her husband, who by the way, she hadn't even known that long. She had to do across the globe trip and she had never left her village before. So all of a sudden, she leaves this village with two small children and have to make this international trip to meet this man that she hasn't seen in two years and only knew for two years. So it's kind of a remarkable tale. And so I think Canada for us as much as I mentioned, the discrimination society was also a really great place where we started our family. We started to develop who we are as the Samuels. And my dad was a dynamic person, hard working person. But my mom was always the grounding for our family. And so I think they both taught us so much about family work, but also about broader purpose. Yeah, what a what a opportunity. That's just so rare. Like the first time she moved, barely left her village was to move across the seas. Yeah. What a fascinating thing. So how did that transition to America come about then? Well, he never lost his dream of coming to America. Canada was great for certain purposes, but he wasn't where he ultimately wanted to be. So what happened was he got a job with Tonka Toys and in the engineering side. And Tonka Toys was looking at trucks, right? Right, right. All those great trucks that you know, Elphans get break. But Tonka Toys was located Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota. And that's where the name comes from. And so that became home for us. And he was only at Tonka for a short while. He went on to do other high tech things and he did all kinds of remarkable things. But it was our vehicle to get to the United States. And then when he went into the high tech field, that was another type of inspiration for us because, you know, he was developing things for the future. Yeah. So one of the only skills, you know, nothing you learned in engineering school was even relevant. Right. I mean, he went to telecommunications. He was in the future of what we now, you know, have in terms of cell communications. What was fun is we would have a lot of prototypes at our house. So we had sort of an initial PC. Wow. And people would come in and kind of look at it and say, what is that? Is that a television set? We said, no, this is a personal computer. And then later on, and you know, he would tell us about sort of his vision of things in the future. And he said, you know, so some I'm just watch. And this is like, you know, 30, 40 years ago, he's telling me this, just watch one day. Everything you'll ever need is going to be in the size of a credit card in the palm of your hand. So now we all have these cell phones. And every time I carry myself, and I think of him, because I think of what he told me when I was a child, and it happened, he didn't get to see it happen. No, he passed away much too young. But the fact that he had that vision of what could be couldn't help it. Right. Could see where I was going. And what an inspirational thing. I mean, it's kind of a similar position where my dad came out of relative poverty and a broken family and things and set an example of changing your status in life. And you got to see that as well. And just that opportunity to see people change their world, change their opportunity, you know, see things coming and either get in front of it or help it come along, come to pass. Yeah, you know, I think you share something that's so important to understand, not just in terms of our personal life, but even in the fight for justice. It's this idea that you have to be willing to see the opportunity, to be willing to see that there's hope, we may not have, you know, we talked earlier about, we may not have answers for everything. We might not even see justice in our lifetime, but we have to have hope that it can be. And I think if we use that same principle in our lives, it's this idea that we have something that we could potentially achieve. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but that potential is what should. Well, it's leaving in that hope is what, so it's something you joined for a fundraiser dinner for the Matthews house recently. And that, but one of the things I tell people is that their case workers, their transition facilitators, you know, they're giving good instructions, not to work harder than their clients, you know, because people have to, have to want it for themselves, but as you can cultivate hope in them that they can actually do it and point it out when they've done some good things and have some good skills. Absolutely. I think Matthews house is a great example of that, you know, because that's what they're doing, they're cultivating hope, they're giving people a little window into what's possible. And I think that's what we really have to be doing in the pursuit of justice or even in the pursuit of raising our families or conducting our businesses. It's really to help people understand what's possible, you know, because it can be very frustrating, as you know, when you read, when you look at the news, when you see what's going on in the world and you think, oh, what in the world and how are we ever going to fix this? If we throw up our hands and say it's just a lost cause, those things will be lost causes. But when we can see the opportunity and and seize that and and allow ourselves the idea of saying this can change, that's when things do change. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Knowing that there is a possibility. So in Lake Minnetonka, did you guys have a boat? We never did, but we had lots of friends. Oh, that's good. That's better than actually having a boat anyway, really. You don't have to mate. No, I mean, actually, my husband and I even met on a boat. Oh, is that right? That Lake Minnetonka, in fact, it is a fantastic boating lake. I've had it after a couple of times and nothing like it. No, there is. And I don't think people realize just how immense it is. I mean, it's not quite as big as the Great Lakes, but when we think about lakes here in Colorado, comparatively, you know, that's a sea in Lake Minnetonka, right? And just, you know, thousands and thousands of boats, either out there pulling skiers or tied up most often, just grilling and drinking beer and just didn't Minnesota past times. So tell me about that 10-year-old in Minnesota. Like, what was your personality like? What was your school like? Were you a strong student? And your sister is two years younger? My sister's seven years younger. Seven years younger. My brother's two years younger. So our educational system at the time that I was there, I believe it was a good system. I wouldn't say it was the greatest, you know, school system ever, but we got a lot out of it. We had good teachers that really believed in us. I had some really great opportunities. I was a strong student. And, you know, one of the unique opportunities I had was when I was a junior, I had the opportunity to be pulled out of school and do a program called the Mentor Connection. It was a pilot project. And that project let me kind of do some other things. So we had to create our own projects. And at the time, I was very interested in juvenile justice. So I studied the juvenile justice system and I wrote a play based on juvenile justice. And the play was actually conducted at the playwright center with professional actors. So for a 16-year-old, that's pretty great. And what a good tip of your future pursuits, right? Yeah, and this idea that you can meld things too, because here I was interested in criminal justice, but it ended up being through an arts opportunity. So that was wonderful. But then, you know, when I graduated, amazingly, I was designated with a special recognition by our governor as kind of the top student for our state. And that gave me some opportunities to visit Washington, D.C. and do some other things like that. So I mean, a lot of good things happened. I was an athlete, you know, I ran track and crash country. Oh, what was your events? I ran track. I ran the 400 and the 800 and the relays. And then in crash country, you know, obviously it's just any crash country race. But it was all great. It was all part of all that great stuff. But having said all that, even though I was a strong student, strong athlete, strong everything, college was a time for me to experience some other things. You know, I went to an amazing school. I had amazing friends, professors, all the same makings. But I went through some challenging times in my life. And what I want to encourage people is, you know, your life doesn't always have to be in a trajectory that's picture perfect and moving forward. You might have twists and turns and challenging times. Are you open to sharing some of those things? Well, I went through a lot of health problems, and that affected a lot of things in my life, a lot of things in terms of academics. You know, here I am, this, you know, straight A student. And suddenly I have to catch up on everything because I can't always be in class because I'm, you know, not well. It was a lot of challenges. But the good news was, you know, I came out of that stronger. You know, I came out of that realizing, you know what? I'm still capable person. But now I've also weathered some things that also make me a stronger person. So I think that was good to position me for some of the things I had to. Yeah, yeah. I like that notion. So I guess let's talk to me sort of that young career. You met young Zach not too long after on a boat. So yeah, my young career. So when I graduate from undergrad, I did three years of working in different environments in public affairs. And I was in DC and then San Francisco. And then ultimately in Minneapolis working for a large media company. Then I decided to go to law school because I knew that's, that was the direction to be an international human rights advocate. And then shortly after I had this opportunity in the United Nations. And that positioned me for opportunities to advise and be directing different advocacy groups. So it was with one of them in DC that I met Zach. Okay. And, you know, we were, I was visiting. I was just in Minnesota for a short while. And it just happened to be this boating event. And it would happen to be with a whole bunch of friends and old and new. And we never expected to meet, you know, let alone anything else. Neither one of you was looking for that life partner. I got it. It was just a fun day on the boat. Yeah. And then at one moment, we both happened to sit in the back of both same time. And we turned to each other had this conversation. And just had a great experience together. Everyone wondered what's happening. We felt it was five minutes, but it was like, you know, much longer. An hour. Yeah. Right. And then when I've all said and done and I went back to my mom's home and my mom asked me the next day, well, how was your day? And I said, you know, it was a great day. And I think I met my soulmate. And she did this double take. But then I said, but I don't think I'll ever see him again. Oh well. Because he was this Air Force guy living in Mississippi, how in the world. But somehow God made a way for us. And so we ended up with a long distance relationship. I had a job where I traveled a lot. He was an instructor pilot that traveled a lot. We would sink our schedules to try to meet up here. Yeah. I'm going to be a South Carolina. Exactly. What we did. Literally, I'd have a conference in, you know, Louisiana and he'd say, students, we have a sortie. So we had this literally jet set life. And this is all before 9-11. So it was so easy to travel. And it sounded so romantic and amazing. We even traveled to Europe doing, you know, the same thing. But ultimately, all we wanted to do was to be in the same place at the same time and literally just have dinner at home. Yeah. Because the jet set life only goes so far. And ultimately, what you want is that time with that person. Yeah, yeah. Six months after we met, we were engaged and a year later, six months later, exactly one year from when we met, we were back in Lake Minnetonka and got married. Oh, well, that's what it needs to worry. That's, it's nice when it feels right. And how long have you guys been married now? It will be 21 years this July. 21 years. Nice job. And so, um, Zach's a Air Force pilot flying U2s and stuff. And, and we kind of touched on, you know, a little bit of the California experience. But I think that's maybe a good place to pick back up with the journey. Sure. He had a remarkable experience at BL Air Force Base and flying U2s at a very critical time in our history. And what an incredible community. I didn't know much about Air Force before marrying an Air Force person, right? Right. But the military community is remarkable. And to this day, some of our dearest friends remain part of that Air Force community, even though they're scattered all over the country and globe. But what I will tell you, though, is that when we started having children, it changed a lot of things because, you know, being away that much when you have a young child at home, it's just not what he wanted to do. And he wanted to be a hands-on father. So when we had our first child, he made a decision to make a change and switch from Air Force to Airlines. And so that allowed us many different opportunities as well, different, but still wonderful opportunities to raise our family. And so now we have three children. And, you know, his, his work has allowed a lot of that. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that. When we first met, we talked a quite a bit about your academic element. And because you were so new with global justice, I think almost to a certain extent. So we talked more about your most recent past. But that seems to be a to a certain extent when you were really most equipped to do global justice. And so I think I'd like to like maybe dig in a little bit deeper there to that opportunity. I spent 10 years as a full-time faculty member. And I had a taught before that. And I've obviously taught for years now through global, but it was the first and only time where I was full-time. And it was a really wonderful transformative experience because I had a chance to work with people at an age group that is really an honor to work with because they're clay when you're in college. You know, they got a purpose. It's firm enough. Yes. They're who they are. But there's room there to shape and mold. And so to certain degree, I was able to provide with a rigorous program, mentorship and guidance advising. And so those students went on to be just tremendous in school, but also tremendous in life. So that was very gratifying. But it also was a chance to show that education is a really big part of justice. That we have a responsibility to really invest in our next generation. Because as I mentioned, we may not see justice in our lifetime, but they might. So we have to constantly renew and re-equip every generation to pursue justice. And so I think that experience firmed that up for me because I was still the human rights advocate. And even though I was teaching all these public policy courses to equip people for various other things, at the end of the day, I still saw it as a missional advocacy opportunity. And so I do think it was really important for landing me where I am now. And it also is why we continue to teach even though it's not the total of our work. It's an important part of that. So can I teach a little bit about justice in broad strokes to those listening right now? I know it's kind of an amorphous topic that's hard to dig into, but maybe even talking to some specific circumstances globally or, you know, I know there's a lot of like real strife like like the the Chinese and the Uighurs obviously comes to mind and, you know, North Korea and just the way that it is and all those things. So the thumbnail that I would share with everyone is to think about history, context, structure and systems. And, you know, you can include laws with that, but I'll start with the history. We need to know history. For us to really understand our current justice concerns or what injustices are out there, we need to understand what happened before. Yeah. And a lot of times people want to skip over the historical because, you know, we got to deal with now. Now is important, but we could be either learning from the past or we could be creating the same mistakes of the past, right? So history is important and that helps us understand what happened that brought this issue to this place. The second is this context. So injustice happened within a framework, like even if you have a, you know, a good set of laws, if they're being applied wrong, then you have a contextual problem. Right. Or on the flip side, you might have, you know, really bad systems as directors and that context is creating oppression. Right. So you have to look at the context. Yeah. I was just thinking about the black justice in our country, you know, arguably the the laws are pretty square, but the application has a bit and the history. So then when we talk about structures and systems, if you understand the history and you understand the context, then you can look at structures and systems and say, okay, well, are these appropriate? And are they being applied properly? And if they aren't, then we go back to the history and context because that might explain why they're not. And that helps us to understand what to fix. Now fixing is not an easy thing. It's not an immediate thing, but it's this idea that if we have this holistic approach to justice, where we see all those elements, we might actually get further along in effectively addressing these things. So that's not easy. And I think what's hard in our society is people want quick answers, and they want quick responses. And I get it, I understand that, but injustices don't work like that. They formed over time and it's going to take time to undo them too. Right. Right. And that's an interesting thing. I was just thinking about like Weinstein or Weinstein or whatever that Harvey terrible guy is in Hollywood, right? Like he formed that injustice of his kind of legacy over of a long time. And you know, cancelling him doesn't just fix it. Right. Right. And the thing is, he is one totally. He may be representative of many others. 10, 100 thousand. I don't know. Right. And the thing is in each person needs to be brought to justice. But on the other hand, the bigger thing we have to be concerned about is what was the historical and the contextual and the structure and the systemic that allowed someone like him or many others like him to do the kinds of things that he did? That is the root. Because if we don't get to that, there'll be a future Harvey Weinstein within a different context. Right. Well, I'm thinking systemic. Let me talk about the Catholic church scandals and things like that. Like what was it about the way we did things? And that takes a lot of introspection by that organization. It does. And it hurts. And it's, you know, difficult. And it can raise all kinds of iron among different groups. I mean, some people are going to be angry. We have to work through all of that. You know, and that's again, really hard work. Sure. But necessary. One of the interesting justice related things of the early presidency was the cancelling of that Keystone pipeline. Big Canada, US thing. You're probably a little bit familiar because it's and it's like, well, yeah, it was a pain, but we got our permits and we invested $7 billion or whatever. We've got 140,000 jobs. And you canceled us, you know, and so I see it from that angle. But then I also see, you know, guy trying to honor his promises and the campaign trail and this and that. Yeah, politics. I mean, if you're bringing in sort of policy and politics, they bring another layer to all of this. Right. Because, you know, I know everyone says, I don't like politics or, you know, there are not, you know, many people are not too keen on, you know, government and government work. But there's only one arena where you can influence so many. And that arena is government. Totally. On the other hand, it can't be viewed as the only arena. And I think that that's where people make mistake is that we can't disregard government because they are influential. Totally. But we also can't make it the center of our universe because we have to remember all these other sectors, business, education, the church, all of these also factor and influence. And so it's how we work on them together that can be the results here. I heard it described recently a government as basically the only entity that can legally use force. Right. So it's the point of the spirit. Yeah, it is. And so that's why we want that particular spearholder to be just. Yeah. Yeah. Because and the churches and the people and the academia are all wrestling over the spear. Or to at least hold them accountable to that they use properly. And so that's why when we look at other countries who don't have the system we have, we have to have to be aware of that. Like that's their context. And so if they don't have a democratic system, if they have a totalitarian regime, if they do these various things that make it really difficult to hold them accountable, right. That's a concern for us. And if we move in that direction, that's also concerned for us. So we need engagement, but we have to allow a wide variety of engagement in a democratic system. And that's even doubly harder, right? Because not only are we dealing with trying to hold the leaders accountable, but we have different views on what accountability looks like. Right. Right. Well, I'm just imagining that being a global justice organization, like how justice is defined and especially enforced in these different legal systems, I'm imagining like in some country or culture, if you steal, getting your hand chopped off is just the way it goes. In other places, that's torture, right? Right. Or whatever. And we've had examples of that. You know, we've had examples where Americans have gone to, you know, other countries and had those kinds of experiences for, right? They're water or whatever. They're going to prison spit on the ground when it's a lot, you know, things like that. But the idea is, is that we have to, you know, again, look at context. And, you know, as Americans, we can't assume that everywhere we go is going to be like the United States. We have to be sensitive to other cultures, other contexts, other systems, structures. But also as America, we can be an example because there are many things that we can do in terms of human rights and, you know, sort of promoting, you know, justice that can be an example to places that maybe don't honor that as much. So, you know, we can do a better job at that example too. Fair enough, fair enough. I'm thinking about now the, I guess, the vision. Like you said, something about like we might not see justice in our lifetime, but maybe our kids will or whatever. So can you broadbrush me a painting of like the fabric of the world? Is it the one-world government that that's how we finally get justice? Is it no government? You know, are we living in libertaria or whatever? Like how do we really, in your vision at least, come to a world that empowers justice at a much more meaningful basis and that becomes the norm rather than maybe sometimes what feels like the exception? Great question. So first I'd say that it is important for us to realize that this is a journey, not a destination. And so I think that will allow us to understand that the progress we make is not based on whether we arrived. It's how effectively we're getting there. So that's one element. Having said that, I would love to work myself out of a job. So my point is we have a plethora of things that we can do in the arena of justice. And that's good in terms of, you know, our organization's purposes and work. But it's bad when you think about that because that means there's all these needs, right? If those needs weren't there, we don't have to be doing all these things. So it makes me sad, you know, that we have to. On the other hand, I'm not, I don't have a polyan of you of the future in the sense of I don't think one-world government is the answer. I don't think leaving all government is the answer. I think it's working in the context that we have and making the better. I do think that where there are not democratic systems that we need to progressively work toward helping them become democracies, maybe not directly, but at least indirectly. You know, there's political pressures, there's international organizations, there's all kinds of things that we can use better. I think it's being a good citizen and it's not just the government being a good citizen. It's also helping our businesses and others be good citizens because they sometimes can be more influential quicker than a government can. So when a business goes to an international environment, they can change that environment so much faster than any government policy could. So my vision is really seeing a more highly engaged society, where every sphere, whether it's government, business, church, education, arts, etc., everyone has an eye toward justice so that they are moving in that right direction, that they know that this is what we need to do. But having said that, it doesn't mean that the world is necessarily going to get easier or better. I believe the world is just getting harder. And so I think a lot of what we're here to do is to go back to what you said, to be ready in times just like these, you know, that we are here for such a time as this. We all have to be advocates at such a time as this. This is what we're called to do. The threats are strong right now. You're mentioned of when a business comes into an area and starts to do commerce and gives jobs and stuff, they can really influence that region. And I was thinking about China in Africa, especially. And just the Chinese Communist Party, just generally, like I have to think that's one of your like super bad guys in the world right now. Well, China is a really interesting study on several levels. And I don't know if people really see the global impact of China. But China has orchestrated something that's never been orchestrated before. They have what we call a communist or technically socialist type of a totalitarian system that's their governing system. But they have kind of a hybridized capitalist economic system. Usually those two things don't fit together. But they've been able to engineer with a high amount of government involvement in the financing element too. Exactly. So that's kind of the hybrid part. So that's unique. And so what it's allowed them to do is to start becoming this economic power because if you think about like even the Soviet Union, which was a huge military power, you know, they were considered one of the superpowers of the world, they were not an economic power. And in this day and age, this economic power is quite significant. And they are not only bringing businesses to other places, but businesses are going to them. They're also buying lots of land. They're also not always a good citizen, right? So pollution, abuse, oppression, you know, even health issues, you know, a lot of the things that we've been dealing with, you know, there's some connection back. So this is a country that's had phenomenal influence both good and bad, I'd say. And if you think about this ancient history of an incredibly advanced people and then what's happening today, this is not a country that is a short range. These are long range thinkers. Well, in the climate injustice in China, I read recently that at current angles and they're not really held accountable because they're a developing nation according to the Paris climate accords and whatever. So by the time by 2030, they will pollute more than every other western industrial country in the world combined. Very likely. And we have to remember unless there are people who hold them accountable. Right. And we have to remember we live on one planet. So when any major country or even minor country for that matter, but any major country, meaning of size, right, a pollute, it affects the globe. You know, the air, if you're Guam and you're dumping all of your crap, though, I shouldn't even stop that. Well, and eventually it works to somewhere else. Right. Think about, you know, the coast of California. Right. You know, everything that's happening in a China, for example, eventually works its way over there, right? So these are not, I mean, when we talk about climate issues or more specifically environmental issues, these are not really intended to be political issues. I know they've become them. Yeah. But, you know, as a, as a community that all resides in the same planet, we, well, they're all justice issues, you know, and concerned about from a stewardship standpoint. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about, have you read or read about Nicholas Wade's article in medium recently? I don't think so. It's a, he's a 25 year New York Times columnist, but he wrote an article in medium that basically says, from everything I can see accidental release from the Wuhan lab seems almost the most likely thing. And here's 44 pages of evidence along that. And that's always felt like the most likely thing to me, but it was sure suppressed, you know, and, and, you know, anti Asian hate and stuff like that. You know, people are hating on Trump because he suggested that maybe this is what happened and all that. But it seems like probably what happened. And then my question is, with the big setup, what is justice then? If that indeed was a, a Harvard funded Fauci involved program that got away from him and caused this pandemic and the response they're in, what's justice in following that? If that was the case. So I have no idea, just as anyone else, exactly what, we'll probably figure it out eventually. Eventually, you know, but there are things in history that we still haven't solved, right? But what I will say is, however it played out, what we have to make sure is there's three things. One is accountability. So if we can logically, you know, sort of take the pathway and kind of connect it to somewhere, there needs to be a certain level of accountability. Accidental, not accidental, however it plays out, there has to be accountability. That's just good policy. The second piece is an effective response. I don't believe the way that we have gone about handling this particular pandemic was as effective as maybe it could be. It did hit everyone, you know, sort of unexpectedly in some ways, but we've had global pandemics before and very serious ones before. So there's some things we could have learned about. That's the history part, right? Sure. And so if we had learned from those, we could also have prepared ourselves for when the next one is coming. And just as this one is happening, there isn't future one potential. Sure. So how do we equip ourselves? Especially those who are non-accidental, really support really good. Right. And then the last is we have to get away from the partisan divides because I think what's happening is, depending on which end of the spectrum people represent, they only want to hear those things that support their position. When we talk about global pandemics, we need to move away from that. It really has to be about public health. And it has to be about administering policies and programs that address the concern, but also allow, for example, you know, businesses to do their thing and schools to do their thing. And maybe periods of time we do need to close, but maybe not for as long as we have. You know, these are all things that we need to think through, both ahead of time and during. There's a lot of smart people working on these things. I trust them in many respects, but there's a lot of different views and opinions. I don't necessarily trust all of those views and opinions. That's what's hard about this. And in terms of China's role, I think there's a big difference between looking at a regime versus looking at a people. And I think what we have to recognize is the Chinese people should always be valued respected. You know, we need to hold up their human rights in love. Yes, absolutely. They experienced the same global pandemic as we did. So I don't think the answer is blaming Chinese. But the answer is looking at a regime type that could be, you know, in China or it could be in other places. We've got bad regime types in other places and say what's going on with that regime type that these issues are happening? Maybe more than once. Right. And so those are the types of accountability questions that we need to dive into. And you know, all the other information that's floating out there. I mean, we just have to use our good, good sense, you know, to sort of work our way through them. Talk to me about the dance of justice and liberty a little bit. So, you know, liberty is something that a lot of people have kind of maybe a misconstrued idea of liberty. Liberty does not mean unfettered freedoms. You know, like people think like when I give me liberty, it means that I am free to do whatever I want to do. That's not actually what liberty is about. Liberty is about being in a free society and being able to recognize those freedoms. What curbs our freedoms in a sort of a human rights sort of perspective is this idea and concern for others. So if I want to do anything I wanted to do and I didn't care how it affected you, then that's not truly a liberty approach because I'm impeding on your liberty. Agreed. Yeah. So it's this idea that we're curbed by each other's interests. And so freedom isn't I get to do whatever I want. Freedom is being able to exercise my rights and allowing others to exercise theirs and to do it in a respectful just way. Yeah, we get at least one train every every session, but we'll just go right through. We seem to be caring for you. Yeah, yeah, we'll let the conversations too good to be bothered by. So I think I lost the handle on my next question. We were we were I guess in in California when we left off on kind of the life story a little bit and I think we'll jump into our faith family politics section before too long, but that that transition I guess for Zach, I want to ask that question to transition from Navy, you know, to airline. What was that like both for him and for your family? So Air Force to airline, he loved the mission of the Air Force like he loved the fact that he was always a great group of people that are truly there for a great cause which was protecting our freedoms here in the United States. I mean, you know, what could be more of a thing to go and support, but the dynamics as I showed earlier, we're challenging for family and everything else. And so airlines, you don't have that same sense of, you know, probably for like 10 days a month, right? Well, he works about three to four days a week. Okay, but what he does do is a different kind of purpose. So maybe he's getting someone home from the military to their family. Sure. Maybe he's getting someone to some medical care that they really, maybe it's just a family that has a family. A grandmother sees her new grandbaby. A family who has an edification in a while and then really needs that family time. So he is responsible for 300 some people who have all kinds of different stories and who need to get to their destination safely. So it's a great purpose and it's a great company he works for and good people. The only difference is that unlike the Air Force where you have this sort of built-in community, it's a different dynamic because you might fly with someone for a weekend, but you may not see them again after that. Yeah, six months later, maybe one more time. Yeah, exactly. It's just a different type of sort of, you know, well, into a certain extent. It's definitely it seems like a young people's single people's industry as well. In some cases, there's a lot of some, but there's a lot of the pilots are people who've been in the military before or have had a life and then moved into this arena. And so there are a lot of really seasoned people and I think the challenge is you have to be in good health and you have to be able to handle some really difficult hours and tasks and it is a very stressful job. I think a lot of people sometimes people think you would almost like when you drive the bus from point A to point B, but there's so many variables in an airplane. And so if you just look in the cockpit and realize all there's a lot of buttons and there engages, which is engages and you need to know every single one of them. So it's a it's a challenging job, but it's when he is really good at and he's really enjoyed. And I think the transition was made easier by the fact that he got that time with our family. Yeah, for sure. So how about the transition to loved one then? Like both with him and with the family as well because he worked Air Force a little bit or airline a little bit still in California, right? Yes, he did for several years. So he was flying out of Oakland for I think maybe seven years I think before we lose. Okay. But what I wanted to mention is we had sort of a funny story about how we landed in love and we knew nothing about love in Colorado. But my husband had this opportunity to make Denver his base and Denver wasn't a base before. And he happened to call headquarters and Dallas and asked about it. And they said, yes, you can still bid to, you know, get this base. But it closes at three p.m. today. And so and that three p.m., you know, their time. All of a sudden, we scrambled and he put in the bid and he just said, okay, I'm going to I'm going to do this. And well, I was in a board meeting that was two days Friday Saturday. So I told them I could be there Friday can't be their Saturday. So the whole day that I was at the board meeting, he was looking online and finding a real estate agent. And then he sent me off on a trip on Saturday. And I showed up at the Denver International Airport and this man drove up and said, hello, I'm your real estate agent. You should probably shout out who that is. Yes, that is me. I think Powell fantastic estate agent. We love him and he thinks he is just terrific. So anyway, he showed me around the area and the very last property we saw was in Loveland. And again, I knew nothing about Loveland. But it was sort of meant to be because we got to the house and weirdly there was a key in the door even though the house was empty. Then we go in and the whole house was empty except for this little corner where they set up a table and chair. And I remember just kind of feeling comfortable in this house. And then we left to go see the next house. But when we got in the car, the car wouldn't start and then it began to rain almost instantly. So he told us to go back in the house and then the whole time I sat in that little table chair while he was making phone calls for an alternate car. And I just felt like this is our house. Yeah. And so anyway, long story short, it was our house. And the very next day we put in an offer and they after that they accepted and suddenly within a couple of weeks we were moving. Wow. And was global justice just ideas in your head when you moved and then it started to take shape? Global took shape after we arrived here. This was not something in the making beforehand. Okay. And in fact, the first year that we're here, it was just really developing and sort of jelling in my mind. There were some other priorities that we had in that first year. And so it wasn't about building a new organization. It was really about being here. Yeah. You know, being present. Yeah. I have a, I can't remember if it's Anne Barron or Shana Marcy that introduced us. But both of those two, like anytime they meet somebody that's really interesting or really smart or has a super cool business, they're like, Kurt, you got to meet this person. It was Anne Barron and her organization that connected us. Yeah. And I sort of appreciate her for making that introduction. And she was right. I was excited to make that point. It's been great to meet you too. So I want to transition to that faith family politics section specifically. And I want to start with faith because you've talked about your faith a little bit. But I wouldn't know about your faith journey. Like was your faith strong as a four-year-old girl? Did it, you know, get softened? Was you always a interest? Was it ever of strong interest? Let's hear about that journey a little bit for you. So like a lot of people faith, I have had a journey and you know, there's peaks and valleys and everything else as a Christian. I grew up in a Christian home. And so I always understood and believed in, you know, my family's faith and it was mine. And the early years, because we moved so much, we'd never had a regular church or anything like that. And it wasn't until we landed in Minnesota that we actually got to start going to a regular church. And that church really grew me as a Christian as in my own right. But my parents were always great examples. My mom was always a deep person of faith and prayer. And I had grandparents that were deep people of faith and prayer. So I had good examples even before that church. But that church gave me a platform to start really developing. And so I was on fire in my middle school in high school years and really strong in my faith. And then college years, I went to a Jesuit school, you know, Georgetown's Jesuit school and I was not Catholic. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yes. But it's a place that did a really good job of integrating faith and learning. But my own faith didn't necessarily grow in that time. It was a time of testing. You know, you had many people from different walks and different beliefs. And you really had to sort of navigate all of that. And you really sort of think about, well, is this really right? And do I really believe this? And I think at the end it sharpened my faith. But during those years, I wouldn't say it was the strongest time as much as it was the time where I knew where I had to kind of go. I was baptized when I was 21. Okay. And I chose to be baptized at 21 because I was an adult, right? You know, you're officially 21. Do you want to shout out to that church or pastor or anything like that from back in those days? Tom Jensen was my lifelong pastor there in Minnesota. And he's the one who married Zach and I too. Awesome. Amazing man. And just a humble man of God, you know, and it's people I came that have steered me throughout. So while my 20s, you know, my college years, my law school years, I wouldn't say, law school is probably the furthest away. That was your faith for a while. Oh, yeah. It kind of becomes all encompassing. But even during that time, it was just sort of this drive. But what changed that sort of valley time of my life was after meeting my husband. He was not a person of faith. He didn't come from a Christian background or any kind of faith background. And he, I believe, was a seeker, but he didn't know it. And so we had lots of interesting conversations. And I had to tell him when I first met him, this is who I am. This is what I believe. And I want to make sure you don't you understand that. Yeah, yeah. But you married him anyway before you came along. Right. Well, he did something that I think was unique where I said to him, I said, you know, you have all these concerns about faith and about the Bible. Have you read it? And, you know, he said, well, I've learned all these things before. And I said, but humor me. Just read it yourself. So I started the book of Matthew and just start reading. So he started reading maybe just because I asked, you know, not necessarily because he wanted to. But then he came along the story where Jesus was in the temple courts, you know, and he was so angry at what we see. Yeah, the money changes tables, whatever, you know, you know, did all this stuff. And it was almost like, you know, the the scales fell off his eyes because he had never seen that story and he had never seen that version of Jesus. He always thought of Jesus as sort of this wimpy guy that walks around with a lamb. Right. Right. You know, the images that we share. But in that story, he was a strong principled example of Christ, right? And that resonated with him. You know, he's this military guy and he's a snowboarder and he's an active guy. Right. And so I'm not Ned Flanders. So seeing that version of Christ and so he said, well, if I was wrong about that, what else am I wrong about? So then he went on his own spiritual journey. And the point was as he went into his spiritual journey and Bible has power, he became this believer and he was set on fire, which reignited in my own faith. Sure. And so we went through a journey together. And so while he, I wouldn't say he was a full Christian at the time that we got married, we did go through premarital counseling, Christian pastor and we had a Christian service. But then a few months later when we moved to California, you know, after our first year in Mississippi, he got baptized at our church. And I had a chance to baptize him with a pastor. So that was a remarkable experience. And we made a commitment to raise our family, you know, in a Christian way based on biblical principles. We respect and value all faiths and we know people of all faith. And we learned those faiths, but this is the faith that we believe in. And this is the faith that we promote for our family. Yeah. And talk to me about your family a little bit. We might as well go into that, but also especially about faith. I met your son recently, maybe for the second time, even, and your daughter is maybe a little bit younger. Yeah, I have twin girls. Okay. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So my son is 16 and he's in high school and he is a remarkable young man, brilliant mind, but just a really solid heart. You know, he is what I call the every man. He could talk with anyone, be anywhere, do all things, and just a really humble person. You know, sometimes people with lots of skills, you know, they wear them on the sleeves. He's not that kind of person. And so I have great, great excitement for what the future holds for him. And he'll find his path. And I think he's destined to do something really, really wonderful. And then my girls equally so you know, they're twins, but they couldn't be more different. One is very sports oriented, one is a ballerina, you know, one is very artistic, one is very laser focused. So they have very different interests and backgrounds, but what the joy is for me is seeing these two with these remarkable skills and abilities supporting one another. Yeah. You know, because they're not going to go so much better. Well, think how powerful they could be if they stay close in their heart and their person, but have these different interests and capabilities. So we know we talk about those old days where one to twin powers. Right. Right. So it's kind of like that when they work together, it's powerful. Yeah. And they have great heads on their shoulders and they're just wonderful young. And how old are they? They are going into middle school. Okay. So it'll be fun to see how they navigate, you know, those years ahead. I mean, it's been, it's been a joy to see all the kids grow, but as any mom would say, it's all happened too fast. Right. So I'm really feeling like, hey, pump the brakes here. These years are going to fast. Yeah. And I, you know, I remember so clearly when they were just little babies and to now see them as these teens and preteens. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. It's amazing. But it incredibly humble and wonderful experience for me. Talk to me about your family and your engagement with the community of, of Loveland or Northern Colorado in general and how that's different than maybe it was in California or things. Well, we were very active in California in a lot of different community groups in our church, our schools and all that. And we continue to do that here. We're very active with our church, but we're also active in the community, whether it's our children's schools or whether it's community organizations. And then global because of what we do, we work with many different organizations and lots of associations, lots of groups. So it's allowed me to really sort of spread out. Yeah. What's fun for my family is, I mean, they know, you know, mom has a crazy schedule, but they are also very service oriented. And so they're out there and they're doing things and they're helping, you know, even if it's just helping me to help someone else, I think it's really wonderful that they're willing to do that. That's super cool. And so we did phase, we did family, anything else on the family side, we should touch it. Let's look, can we talk a little bit about more about your dad and mom and like their character or gives, give your dad some props. You said he passed fairly young. Yes, my dad was only 54 when he passed away. So he was very young and kind of in a peak time in his life, but unexpected things happened. It was one of the most pivotal moments of my life when that happened because he was such a central figure, not just my life, but our family's life. You know, he is the one that brought us here. He's the one that provided for us. He's the one that gave us that inspiration. We all had to retool. But on the other hand, one of the biggest realizations was, you know, my sister and brother and I, we lost a dad, but my mom lost a life because she had built all that with him. So she had to, you know, reimagine herself in her life. And so what I learned through that process of loss was one, you always grieve. You know, it's not something where you experience for a while and you kind of get over it. There's no getting over it. You always grieve. I always think of him in many different contexts. But it was also this idea that, you know, God also provided for my mom so that she was able to carry on and have a wonderful life. One of the most interesting moments recently was I'm 52 as of this Friday. But thank you. But when I was 47, a few years ago, it struck me that my mom was just 47. My dad passed. And I never thought about that as a child. Even though I was an adult child, I never thought about that until I had that conversation. And with myself first realizing, gosh, she was so young. And she had a whole life ahead. And so I'm glad that she lived that life, you know, and she's done it well. That's awesome. Somebody shared recently one thing we didn't realize when we were kids is, we were watching our parents grow up before our very eyes. And I can sense you have that same kind of impression. That's a great point. Yes. They were, they were young, you know, they were married young and they had us young. And so yes, we all grew up together. And I think that that carries over. Now I have a different life in that I had my children later in life. You know, I was 35 with my son, 40 with my girls. And so my path is different, but they've left a great impression on me. And then I have to really also really support, you know, and give the props to my husband. Because this life that we've built now, you know, I mean, we're standing on their, you know, shoulders of my parents and others. But this is also built because of the person that he is as well. You know, and I mentioned to you that our first year was not about global. So what I'll share with you on just a personal note is that when we moved here, you know, it was very sudden, very unexpected, but we very quickly learned why. And that was a week after we arrived, he discovered a lump that was a lymph node. A week later, he was having surgery for that. And a week after that, we discovered a stage for metastasized melanoma. So that was kind of a heart-stopping, you know, stop everyone in their tracks kind of moment. And it was not a good prognosis. And so that first year that we're here, it was really about just making him well. And then being able to move forward in our children were really young at the time that we moved here. But it became crystal clear why we had to be here in Colorado, everything he needed, the medical professionals, the oncologist. The keys right over there. Yeah, the man, I mean, all of these things were right there for him. And we realized that we've been in California. We would not have had the same sort of structure and access that he had here. And even the specialist, the national specialist on his particular form of cancer was in Denver. So remarkable. So we believe that that was destined. And I think that, you know, when I talked about global and we talked about family and all these things, the experience with him kind of brings that all down to this crystal clear level that, you know, God had us in his hands. He directed our steps. He healed my husband. And then he gave us all a purpose. And so one of the reasons we have the mountains for global is because he's a mountain man. And he looked to those mountains outside our window for inspiration to get better. And I started seeing his, you know, his, his process and his progress. And I realized that's a great analogy for pursuing justice, right? Yeah. It's, it's to be willing to make the climb. And so, um, I can just keep it up and forward, you know, and do it. And cancer fights are kind of like that too, sometimes it's just my wife's best friend went through and about three years ago now. And my sister did a year after that. And it's just if you believe you can get better. And if you keep working hard, you probably will. And if you don't, you don't, but, you know, your mind has a lot to do with your body. And so that's part of it. And, you know, just just believing, you know, we believe it was a miracle, but we don't take it for granted. And I will say one of the fun, sort of closing stories on that is, you know, so he went through one year of that. And on September 18th, uh, he was cleared, you know, 100% healthy, uh, and which was remarkable. And then on September 19th, so, you know, halfway through his process, we started building global September 19th, we climbed mountain. Okay. And took my cell phone and hit send and global launched. Oh, wow. So, uh, we really see these things kind of tied together. Oh, what a beautiful thing that sounds like you were together and imagining what, what you could do when the time is right. Yeah. So I think, um, you know, all of this works together, doesn't it? I mean, what you believe, the people in your life, um, the opportunities you have, and then what you do with it, it, it all works together. For sure. So we've brushed aside politics a little bit and talked about partisanship and things like that. Rather than specifically talk about your politics, but can we instead maybe talk about how do we fix it better, make it less yucky than it has been, you know, it's, to me, it's been gross and getting grosser, you know, maybe probably my whole life. I voted for what's his name, Ross Perot. And so I've never voted for a mainstream candidate. Uh, and so that's the perspective that I come from is because I always just kind of thought it was just power people beating each other up and it's just gotten worse. So how do we fix it? How do we make it more just system for people's rights to be respected for justice to be done, you know, I wish I had the magic one. Come on. I will tell you so first of all, um, just for, you know, listeners, global focuses on geopolitics, but we are not partisan. So we don't represent a particular political party. And for me, I have been and continue to be what I call a moderate. And so one of the reasons I call myself that is I want the freedom and the flexibility to pick and choose and make decisions, not necessarily based on a partisan position. It's giving me a chance to, you know, lean in the direction we have as a person of faith. There's certain things I really believe in. And so I stand by that as a person works on human rights issues or things I believe in and I stand by that. So it's really informed how I vote, how I think about things. But at global, what we try to do with anything politically is to help people analyze a situation. Now, the challenge of that is because we have people on the left and right and all places in the middle, they may not always agree with your analysis. And that's perfectly fine. But what we want to do is come at it from a relatively neutral place. It's not to please everybody, but it's to help people think about and weigh things. So if you're someone on the left, we want you to consider some of the things on the right and vice versa, not an easy process in the world. I'm thinking about those ballot guidebooks where you're like, these are the things for exactly. And, you know, we try to do that. Now, we don't live in a world that's that clear like that. And it is becoming more and more and more partisan. And I think that I don't have anything against either political party or other parties that are out there. But I think we have to be careful of clinging too tightly to that partisanship because it might blur our eyes to what's really going on. You know, we talked, you know, a little bit about the whole sort of global pandemic and COVID and how we're handling that. I think one of the reasons it hasn't been handled as well as maybe it could have is because of the partisan divide, not having a willingness, you know, in a sense like, you know, when Donald Trump was in office, there was no incentive for the left to make things work because it would be his win. And then on the flip side, there was no, you know, support on the right for anybody on the left to do those victories because they don't want those victories. Right. That's the wrong way to approach the public health. So I think in my mind, the answer to this is to move away from being so politically partisan, to allow your political partisanship to be something that is more for associational purposes and not for branding others. I think the whole point is to just like any club or association to align with people who are similarly minded, perfectly fine to do that. But then to sort of brand others as other is not so good. Right. And so I think that's what we need to leave. And then I think we also have to do something that a lot of people don't like to do, which is compromise. A lot of times, if you look historically, many decisions are made out of compromise. And sometimes people almost see it as a dirty word like, oh, we lost. But we have to bring people together and work things out. You know, politics is complex, policies, even more complex. We have to work it out. So that might mean you're not going to get everything. But if we can compromise, we might get something better. I always like to say, the goal here is to have everybody just a little disappointed. And then the other side of it is also to be a little bit more representative. And so what I would encourage is when we're talking about politics to realize many voices are out there and not all of them are heard. And so, you know, maybe people on the extremes have the microphone, you know, right now you and I have a microphone. But who else needs that microphone? Who else do we need to hear from? And we shouldn't ever be in the position of saying, well, I'm going to take the concerns of X group without talking to X group. Yeah. You know, we might feel this sense like we have to help so and so. Well, have you talked to so and so. Yeah. Do they want to help? I heard a story in the Oregonian just last week. They went to a homeless part kind of thing and offered to put everybody into a program leading towards self-sufficiency and housing and job path. And they had one takeer. Yeah. And that homelessness is complex because, you know, homelessness is a lot of different things. Right. And the homeless is not a singular group of people. And they have, you know, a lifestyle choice for a lot of people for some and some it could be mental health issues or addiction and others. It could be very difficult economics. And sometimes it's a combination. So this is just one example of what we have to realize is that we can't put labels on all things and this thing that the policy is just going to fix it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where compromise comes from is that we may not be able to do everything. But how can we at least come to a place where we can do something. Yeah. We're everybody that wants to get out of this park that they're living in can can have that pathway. Yeah. What I wanted to ask about kind of justice and oh, it was somebody was talking about public health officials and criticizing some of the response and certainly there's interesting things of different states we have we'll be able to look back upon, right. But so what would you expect of a public health official like their job is to keep as many people alive as possible. And so if that means they can enforce keeping everybody locked in their house for a year and nothing happens that will arguably succeed. Yeah. Well, and that brings me just so you know, I had a couple prongs to you know the answer. So the first prong was to you know really be careful about partisanship. The second prong was this idea of compromise. But the third is collaboration. Because you know if you are let's say a microbiologist your job is to really think through what's happening with these cells and viruses and everything else and also think through worst case scenarios. Right. But you don't always want worst case scenario when you're making a policy decision. You need to hear about the worst case scenario and you need to plan accordingly. But you don't want them making every policy. So what you do is you take that microbiologist to help inform the policy maker who also have to factor other things. Yeah. Like the communities that they serve, etc. So that balancing act is collaborative approach to things is where we actually get better outcomes. Yeah. And I think like I'm thinking about the dial and stuff for the coronavirus. One of my big criticisms of the lockdown is I felt like maybe it made it worse. If more people would have gotten sick earlier, then less people would have gotten sick in the real flu season and we wouldn't have overrun those hospitals because we flattened the shit out of the curve in April. Well, you know, there's a lot of what it could have shit as I think. Sure. And I do think that there's probably a period of time that we may need needed the lockdown only because we weren't sure what we're dealing with. Totally. Yep. And I think once we started seeing what this was and seeing some patterns, I think we could have made some conclusions to start, you know. Sure. But again, public health was in charge. Right. Well, or, you know, it's also this idea of like people not necessarily responding in the same way as either. So even if public health was. All right. If public health or anyone said we need to do X and we have people doing Y, you know, A, B, and C. Right. We may not get to, you know, where we need to get to. So it's it's that combination of collaboration and cooperation. Yeah. Well, and that's where I was going with that collaboration thing like the dial and stuff. It was like, well, the risk are too high for having full service restaurants. If we've got this many infections, because what if it gets out of the box right or whatever. So at least those are some structure, whether it was right or wrong or what the guidelines. And I think there's some in from I mean, we're working on to be completely candid is it. COVID has been a research project for us. So at global, we launched the project last summer. That is focused on unintended consequences of COVID-19 policies and practices. And especially to find any many and especially the impacts on women and children. So what we want people to do is we'll be releasing this at the end of the, you know, by fall. So at the end of the one year. And what we want people to understand is that while this is a legitimate, you know, concern, we also want people to understand that there's all kinds of other concerns that come with it. So, you know, poverty has increased. Human trafficking has increased. Mental health issues have increased. There have been all kinds of vulnerabilities for children and now they're even more vulnerable. Things like, you know, even domestic violence and abuse. All these things are also very big concerns. And at the end of the day, and we may not have the data today, at some point we'll have to look at, you know, how many lives were affected and lost because of those things as well. And what does that mean, you know, when we have the next pandemic? So I think that's the place where I would like to put my time because I'm not a microbiologist. I'm not a health professional. I'm not any of those things. But what I am is someone who can look at the bigger picture and say, you know, from a human right standpoint, from a justice standpoint, these are things that we need to be looking at now and not be so fearful because of the health concern of addressing these other concerns because they're equally significant. Yeah, I had time today with somebody whose teenage daughter had a suicide attempt recently and he was telling me the children's hospital is booked out with teenage girls with suicide attempts. Just a pandemic of that. Yes, it is. And it's and men, you know, you know, when you think about these like, you know, losing your job or any of those things, it's great strains on people of all walks and all backgrounds. So I think we have many things that we need to be aware of and we can't forget that. And that's the that's the point. A global is is to remind people that we have this collection of concerns and how they work together. Yeah, it sounds like a really interesting project. I'm excited to see some of that. And what else is on the on the horizon? I think, oh wait, we're going to do the local experience. Oh, yes. Are you open to sharing what's the craziest experience? And if we've already touched on it in this conversation, that's fine. But the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share. Well, I've had a lot of crazy experiences. I think the one that I was sharing earlier about my husband, maybe in in the local context, the best one because when he was going through treatment, we were we had an anniversary. So what we decided to do was to challenge ourselves and go and climb flat top mountain. Oh, and that was, I think, almost 13,000 feet. And he was not well, right? And I hadn't done a 13er. Right. And so we tracked and it was not the easiest climb given our context, but we got to the top. And it was that view. It was that perspective. And it was this amazing thing like we are in Colorado. Here we are. And we made it. We got to the top. And this is amazing. We're going to make it. We're going to make it. We, how did we kiss? We high fived and we headed down. And it was just, it was for us, the moment where we said, this is where we're supposed to be. Yeah, what a neat story. So I wanted to hear like thoughts ahead for global justice. And then especially I want to have you share with listeners, you know, how do I find global justice? How do I connect on the Facebook's Insta's all that kind of stuff? So global has many programs and projects. Right now, to actually tomorrow, we have a very special event that we're hosting. It's an annual benefit event that we do. And we're doing it here locally and leveling at desk chair rooftop. And we're also launching a new conversations video series. And what we are trying to do with that is a lot of what we did today is to try to create opportunities for people to have meaningful and civil discussion on political and other types of issues. So we chose three big, what we call tough topics, politics, race and religion. And in court, we are so grateful that you participated in this series. You know, we had you as one of our community members in the politics video. So we put these three great videos together with three sets of really remarkable community leaders. And now we produce this into a series that we're going to make to the public. And it's on a subscription basis. And what we want to do is encourage people to use their small groups, their businesses, their schools, their churches, as opportunities to bring people together and go through the series. The series helps people to understand how to engage in these tough topics and then have their own discussions. And so we kind of guide you through that. It's a work that we've been doing for several months, but we're really excited to launch that tomorrow. Like to find out on your website. Yes, and then also we are in a three year strategic plan process. And so we are going to be developing all kinds of things over the next three years that we're looking forward to sharing. I mentioned the COVID project, but we also have another research project that is going to be presented at the American Political Science Association in the fall. And so that one is looking at partisanship and extremism and its impact on human rights. So that's one we're excited about. And each of our projects are doing all kinds of things. I mentioned the global market. We also have our women's project, our children's project. We have something called create justice that focuses on the arts community, the church initiative that's focusing on the church community, environmental justice. We just had our earth day form. Excuse me. There's just amazed me how many different things you do. We do lots of things, but it's done through a team. And you know, all these things are done are made possible by a lot of hard work and effort, but many hands that are committed. And do you need some hands right now? Are there areas where if somebody has really heard this and is passionate about helping your cause, not just with their paycheck or with their money, but maybe with their skills? Yep. So there's many different ways. So one, he has, we do encourage people to support him because you know, everything that you give to us goes to all these causes and all these groups. And so we always say don't give to global, give through global, you know, to others. But we also have volunteer opportunities. You know, maybe you're someone who loves to do events, or maybe you want to, you know, learn to do some of the research work or something. So there's some great opportunities there. We also have internship opportunities. So for students this summer, we have three interns that are going to be doing all kinds of things. And they learn a lot. We don't give them just admin work. We have them do substantive work. And so it's great for interns. And we do fellowships. And these are for post grads, people who are seasoned and want to do more intensive research. They land with us for a semester to a year. And they work on very specific projects that they would like to pursue. So it's really exciting to see those. We have, you know, board opportunities. You know, our board is always growing and expanding. And then when we have opportunities for staff, we don't necessarily, as I mentioned, post them, but we look for people who have different skill sets that might meet a need that we have. And so we always encourage people to send information. So to do that, there's our website. Our website is www.globaljusticeonline.org, all one word. And then we also have our email. So you can, you know, contact us at just info at globaljusticeonline.org. And then we have four social media platforms. We use Facebook. We use LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. And so people can follow us every day. We provide global news. And then we provide all kinds of updates from our work and other organizations. You know, we want to highlight local think tank, for example, in this podcast. We want to make sure people know what's going on and travel along with us in that journey. I talk with somebody else about that the other day about we don't just have an opportunity to be informed citizens, understand history, understand context, things like that. But it's really an obligation because we're going to mess it up if we don't. And so thanks for helping inform people. Well, thank you. And thank you for the opportunity to share this. And I love that we have so many in our community here who are geared for justice, but from all these different angles, whether it's business or art, search, I mean, I love the fact that we can partner with so many great individuals like yourself, Kurt, who are passionate about this. You know, thank you. Well, it's contagious. Your passion is more contagious than the coronavirus. Well, wouldn't that be great? Well, I just want to thank you so much. Let's have some fun. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Locoh Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear, and founder of The Locoh Think Tank. If you or someone you know would be a great guest for our show, or if you'd like to learn more about our small business owner of your advisory chapters at Locoh Think Tank, please visit our website at Locoh Think Tank dot com or email us at connect at locohthinktank.com. That's LOCOthinktank.com. If you've been enjoying this series, don't forget to subscribe. 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