EXPERIENCE 33 | Blake Craig - Helping Laborjacks (and Jills!) Find Their Match!

Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast with LOCO Think Tank Founder Kurt Bear. Listen in as Kurt digs deep into the business and life stories of business owners and thought leaders at different stages of growth from all walks of life. Launching and growing anything can be a crazy experience, so expand your thinking and level up your understanding of what it takes to find success in the world of free enterprise. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear. I'm here today with Blake Craig, co-founder and chief labor provider at Laborjack. And so Blake, if you would, maybe just set up what's Laborjack? What do you guys do? Who are your customers? Maybe talk about who your co-founder is as well and just set the stage for our listeners as up today. Yeah, thanks, Kurt. Thrilled to be here really appreciates you having me on. Laborjack is a gig economy platform where anything you need an extra set of strong hands for, moving yard work, any sort of odd jobs. You go on to our web app, tell us what when, where you need help. We've sent you somebody from our vetted and insured database of primarily college students to go over to your home or workplace and knock out that project for you. So these guys have training like they know how to do stuff or it's more just the strong arms learning mind. Yeah, it's mostly good attitude and strong back. And what we found is the big problem is that good help is really hard to find and people appreciate somebody who can show up on time rather than any given skill set. And the attitude is everything. And that's the thing that we breed in a culture that we've built. And people are going to show up with a good attitude. It's not all the jobs are super fun, but we're going to make the best of it and we try to do that on the corporate level as well. So it's primarily college kids. It was started by college kids, four college kids. Yeah. And if you don't mind doing a little heavy lifting, it's a pretty awesome gig. It's a little bit like I'm thinking about the college pro painters and it's a whole different thing. It's like I'm almost a franchiser. But it is thanks to the advantage of that labor pool of college students and builds the system that it takes for those guys to become really good painting companies. Exactly. And that's kind of the model that we originally tried to emulate was the college pro painters. But with more of an uber twist to it. So you just go online, you get the notifications, a new job is available on your area. And uh, and you sign up and all right. So it's like you can claim your job like a uber or whatever almost exactly. So you can work as much or as little as you need to make ends meet and you can maintain that busy schedule that most college students have. Yeah. And that's really been the gift of it all is whether you need 10 hours or 40 hours, labor jack can be a fantastic way and our guys make more money working less hours than traditional jobs that are available to college kids. So it's really been a win-win and our customers have provided incredible feedback. We've got a five star reputation throughout Google with over 200 reviews, which there's not another labor company on earth that's been able to do that. So it's really been a testament to, you know, kind of the the young energy and we're trying to disprove the fact that millennials hate work. Right. I love it. I love it. So tell me like you guys have been growing pretty rapidly and I think even raising some capital doing some things and we'll get into the rest of that story. But what's the team look like today, like the headquarters team and then how many labor jackers are out there that turn in shovels for you or doing the heavy work? Yeah. Right now I think we're at about 480 active labor jacks, which is pretty wild. Our management team, there's six of us, right now and we're headquarter right here in Old Town and getting out and sharing these jobs. Most of the work is, you know, a traditional 80-20 Prado's principle where about 80% of our workforce does, or I guess 20% of our workforce does about 80% of the jobs. So if you guys are pretty serious about it, it might even be their main income source or for most of maybe years. Yeah. And our guys make good money. I mean, our top guys can knock down about $4,000 a month, which, you know, with tips and bonuses, isn't a bad gig for a college student, especially if they needed to go take a week off, they've got that flexibility and liberty to have fun and be young. So what's the rest of your team do at the headquarters? Well, so we're really trying to take that technology approach. So my co-founder Josh, I'm super fortunate to be in business with, is chief of product and he's continuing to push forward the tech deliverables and to get the web app and, you know, the customer experience and the laborjack experience and most importantly, the backend software so that we can get 45 people where they need to be on any given day at the right time and, you know, we can process the payments and it's really seamless. Can you just ask Uber if you can just kind of slide in and use some of their stuff? Yeah, that's really the goal is why we create the wheel and, yeah, there's a lot out there that's, you know, you just put a little bit of a twist on it and one thing that we've learned is that there's a lot of money in some of the unsexy industries. So, you know, the tech world has overlooked the moving and the general labor aspect of it, but that industry is so starved for technology and efficiency and innovation that we've really been able to make up Mark and be like, hey, man, away, I mean, there's staffing companies out there that you still show up and you get a ticket printed out for you. Right. And it's like, why? Yeah, why would you even have a company? Yeah, I mean, it's silly to ask, you know, do you have a smartphone? Well, yeah, everybody has a smartphone right now for, you know, the college market so you might as well make a little money with it. Yeah, yeah. So, and the rest of the team, I guess, I'm guessing that finding labor jackers has got to be a challenging thing. It seems like the labor market is all kinds of awkward right now. This, yeah, this last quarter has been unlike anything we've ever seen. We had always had, because the company was made by college students, four college students, that was what was easy for us to articulate our value proposition to. And we can go out and sell and we can increase that demand of workforce with no issues. Well, things have changed. And so COVID, we had a little bit of struggles, you know, getting people to work to want to come out or even to call for those projects like that pilot brush in my backyard can just wait. You know, hey, my, and it's, you know, hey, I don't know if I feel comfortable going into a stranger's home and, you know, rightfully so, nobody really knew what to think of this. But we made it through that, but what's been even tougher is I think with all the stimulus, you know, money and the unemployment benefits, our industry is pretty high in turnover. This isn't designed to be a long-term career for these people, rather a bridge. And so you're going to college, you need to make ends meet, and then you go on to bigger and better things, which is the goal of what we're building. And so we anticipated the turnover, but what we didn't anticipate was how hard it was going to be to replace those people. And we're spending a lot of money trying to get new talent in the door steps, and we're refusing to sacrifice on the quality. Yeah. So it's been, it's been a struggle. We're turning down too much work right now. We're turning down a lot of money. And for a company that's as hungry to grow as we are, it's tough. It gets those butterflies going in the pit of your stomach. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. And so, man, we're going to go to the politics section later, but do you want to brush on that? I mean, it feels like, honestly, the vibe in the small business community that I interact with is like enough already. No more bailouts for the businesses, no more bailouts for the people because we just all want to go to work. Yeah. And but it's hard. I mean, if I could get my full income or even more than my normal income to not work, you know, I've got a lot of projects I could work on at home. I'd like to mountain bike more, all that. You name it. I mean, wouldn't we all like to just take a year off to pursue our passions? I think it's not a tough sell. And you look around at what's going on and boat sales are dirt bike sales are up all this. I mean, people are out and joining life, which is very cool, but it's it's not sustainable. And it's it grinds your gears. And we can't compete with the the free money. The fun employment. The fun employment. We just we can't. And it's it's interesting seeing, you know, somebody who has a part-time pizza delivery jobs, you know, making 900 bucks a week. And and then it we can't compete with that. And it creates resentment with with other workers and yeah, real complex situation. And so is that what like I imagine Josh probably has maybe a tech helper or are more on yet core team. And then it's just recruitment and and finding work and finding people. Yeah, that the the simplest steps it's it's finding, you know, people, we've got a fantastic development team that we work with that they're you know, we've got two full-time developers working around the clock to hit all these tech deliverables and then finding the people is that's the thing I work in hard time. That's the blocking and tackling. And you're like we need and you know, you can innovate the the process and make it better, but at the end of the day if if there's not that demand to work. Yeah, then there's you can't make people want to work. It's really hard. Yeah, but fortunately we do have enough of a workforce. Yeah, so we're not we're not you know, stuck in the water, but we're not stuck in the mud. We're just not hitting the aggressive growth numbers that we targeted and and it's it's a bummer because we've spent so much blood sweat and tears. Yeah, well, you go to the software and and and to and not even just with the software. It's just to you know, the marketing campaigns were finally working right all the networking events like people people were starting to know who Laborjack is and what we do and then you know, so yes, we can do your job, but it's going to be three weeks out. Exactly. And it's like, oh, well, that doesn't work for me. And so it's yeah, it's tricky, but we're we're adapting. We're having fun and you know, fortunately, we're not we're not slowing down. Yeah, we're just not growing as much as we we want to. Well, one of the things I like to do is learn about the people that get things off the ground and like what some of their characteristics are and stuff. So I want to go jump in the way back with you Blake and and just ask, you know, where'd you grow up? What kind of family? Are you son of entrepreneurs or or so? What what was that background for you? Yeah, is grew up in South Denver as an only child and have just always had the entrepreneurial neck. And and I wish my mom could be here to tell the stories, but as she worked in a lot of trade show business and would come home with all these little giveaways and I got in trouble for selling them door to door, you know, to make a couple extra bucks. In second grade, I also got called down the principal's office because I was renting my toys on the playground. We renting them. Yeah, we can't keep it, but yeah, and for a quarter, you could borrow it for the whole recess. We went ice skating and we rented ice skates and I was like, mom, why do we have to give these back? I just saw you pay for them. She's like, no, it's renting. You just you just pay a little bit of it and then you have to give it back. I was like, oh, okay. And so I mean, it was like first or second grade. I was young. But yeah, I think some of the other kids' parents didn't really think that business model was very fair and you know, hindsight, I could have just shared, but I saw an opportunity to to get a little extra snack money so I took it. So your mom worked in in that industry in marketing or something on the monitor? Yeah, she was she was in marketing and so she got trade shows and all the gimmicks that just just swag bags. Exactly, exactly. I was like, I don't think of my tape measures and and poor things. She worked so hard and she was so embarrassed. She's like, these guys probably, my neighbors probably think I'm making my kid go door to door for, you know, lunch money is like, no, I just I thought they might want to I thought they might want a 12-inch ruler. Yeah, I did, you know, this this might be worth 75 cents to them and, you know, can know in a garage sale. So I just went to them. Yeah, I like it. I like it. Yeah, that was background and was your dad in the home too? Yeah, my my parents split when I was young, but my dad is was always there throughout them growing up was, you know, my best friend and was very close to him, but I was definitely raised by my mom and dad was there for for the fun times and the ass kick-ins and, you know, everything in between. Yeah, so take me through up to like high school years and stuff for you strong student. You look like a like you spend a lot more time lifting weights than I do for sure or maybe just moving boxes, I don't know. I think running your own business, you need some sort of stress relief at the end of the day, but no, I was always a terrible student. Okay. I'm always getting in trouble and graduated high school with a roaring 2.1 GPA. Nice. Nice. And was was set on going into the Marine Corps and, you know, thought that was the path. I liked that because I didn't have to get good grades if that was my my option. Right. But then my dad talked me into just saying, hey, give college a try and I'm very thankful that I did and I'm still very close with a lot of the guys that I, you know, ran CSU, that brought you up here then. Went up to moved up to Fort Collins right after high school, had to do a year at Front Range because 2.1 GPA. 2.1 GPA couldn't even get me into Laramie. So I had to do my year of suffering through and was able to transfer into CSU and the rest was history as actually. Doing what like business or what were you studying? Yeah, got my degree in finance and real estate. Okay. And was was a decent student, but more of a better networker. Yeah. And it was always made sure that on test days I sat next to the right people. I guess we can say that now. Sure. Yeah. They're not going to come back and take that degree away from you. Yeah. I mean, it's it's so funny like the things that you think matter than like, oh, I got to get a good grade or, you know, the rest of my life could could not unfold the way it is. No, I got a I got a degree in real estate, got hired on to do commercial brokerage with some of the top producers in the area. What was that? I was with Sparry Van Ness and CBRE. Okay. Yeah. So I know folks in both of those offices. Yeah. Yeah. There's some there's some good people in there and had some struggles, had some fun, made some money. It's a hard industry. You know, I had a lot of years where I didn't make any money. Right. If you can make it five or 10 years, then you can be okay. Yeah. And so as soon as I started making it, I realized it still wasn't it wasn't what drove me. Yeah. Um, you know, the money wasn't my pursuit of happiness. And I had a better feeling when I bought a an RV for 3,800 bucks off Craigslist from some some whack of dude old and when I went and bought a brand new truck from the Dodge dealership. So um, it wasn't till I I finally had money that I realized it didn't bring in much happiness. It wasn't it wasn't for me. Yeah. And I had no no fault to somebody who that is their source of happiness. I'm still out there trying to chase a big chunk of money. Right. Right. But um, I think I'm more addicted to the journey and and really building something. Yeah. That's what that's what the adventure is for me. So let's get into kind of the some of the pre labor jack days then. Some of the investment in something that broke you out of commercial real estate, I imagine. Yeah. So as you probably know, that that job is like a roller coaster. And so I'd had good days and bad days and days pulling out my hair and, um, you know, ready to throw in the towel, but I kept going back and and kept trying to make it that, you know, three to five years and be like, Oh, okay, then it'll all be smooth after that. Um, so yes, I was doing commercial real estate more than full time. Um, had experienced some some mild success and followed by some drought and followed by some droughts. And so, uh, you know, something was still missing. So I wrote a crazy business plan and, uh, and then I started having some more success on real estate and did nothing with this business plan that I wrote. So, um, you know, back in back in the college days, uh, good, good buddy of mine would and I we, uh, instead of getting a job in the summertime, we just posted Craigslist ads and printed off a bunch of fires down in CSU's college of business. And we just offered to help people move. Yeah. And, you know, our phone would ring. We work, you know, about four days a week and we found out that we were making a lot more money, working a lot less hours than the rest of our buddies. And the other thing I noticed that our customers were always elated to have young energetic college kids. Right. And so I did that, you know, pretty much every summer for, you know, three years, just working out of the fraternity house and having fun and making ends meet. But I, you know, at the course, through the throughout the course of it, I learned the two things was that my friends always wanted to work with me rather than their other jobs because I could pay them more and lose better hours. And our customers were always elated to have young energetic clean cut college students rather than the typical movers and that was just either to work at the moving company. Exactly. Exactly. So that was, you know, those were the two premonitions and I, you know, left college, got a job that was a pretty good one and ran with that. But this whole app craze started coming around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had this while they wait a second. If we could take some efficiencies from apps, it's like, hey, there's a demand for a labor force from both sides. You know, people, there's a demand to hire and there's a demand to work. If we can start doing this at scale. And, and I was taking a spread on my friends, you know, I was like, if you're an arbitrage agent right for the start. Totally. So I would go out there and say, hey, for 40 bucks, you get two movers. And I'm going to pay my friend 15. And, you know, I'm going to collect 25. Right. And they were still stowed because at the time, 15 bucks an hour was better than probably. Yeah. It was all cash money and stuff too. Yeah. Yeah. Don't tell the IRS. But we didn't know even know how to pay taxes if we wanted to. So, so that was where we got started. And so they wrote this business plan a couple years into my career after being sick of real estate because I had this idea. Yeah. Things got going better. How did you, how did you write that business plan? Did you just like search business plan templates on the internet and do some market research and stuff? More of the, the Google searching. Yeah. I literally Google search business plan template looked at a couple of them. And this one looks fine and a free one. And I was like, okay. So I wrote it out. And it was, was it labor Jack already? No. No. The first actual name for for labor Jack was smack. That's what student moving assistance company. It's just dig. Yeah. I think labor Jack is a way better. Yes. Yeah. Who wants to smack? I can't take credit for the name labor Jack. But and I was just as passionate. I was stood up in front of a room and I said, smack. Student moving assistance company. And it's so funny thinking back on it. You know what, what you're so passionate at one time and you're like, man, that was silly. But you know, we don't know. We don't know. You know what? It was a good enough name to get the idea off the ground so that I can realize it wasn't a very good name. And it really needed to have some tumbling around. That's one of the things that I realized about ideas and, you know, there aren't that many new ideas. Mostly it's just new mixings of other existing ideas that haven't been done much. And it's going to tumble those rocks around in the tumbler for a while. It doesn't just happen a lot of times. It has to stew. It does. It does. And fortunately, some one of the other guys that I met came up with the name of what do you think about? I said a lumberjack laborjack. I was like, yeah, that's cool. That's way better than smack. You know, nobody wants to hire smack to go help their wife move. I mean, that's this kind of counterproductive right there. So yeah, actually I wrote the business plan, sat on it for about a year, got lunch with a co-worker and kind of told him my idea and he was involved at the Inesphere down here. And he was like, hey, you should run with this. This is actually a really good idea. And you want to give props to that co-worker? Steve Stack, or you know Steve? Oh, I don't Steve, sure. Yeah, Steve's the man. So yeah, he's and he's so humble and modest. So I think he gets a little let's give him some props. Yeah, a little red in the bag. I'll tag him and tag him on the Instagram. Yeah, do it. Yeah. So Steve's one of my favorite humans on this planet. And he's just such a good person. And anyways, we can go on about Steve for a while. But no, but he empowered you to really say, you know, let's at least take the next step of seeing how real this could be. Yeah. And it took a while. It wasn't just one day. And then he kind of came, kept coming back to me and saying, hey, if you don't do this, you'll regret it. And so he sent me just shooting forward me an email for a CSU startup day. And it was open to non-students. He said, you should present your idea here and just see if there's any legs and take one weekend out of the year. So I was like, all right, I'll give it a whirl. And I flew out to San Francisco to meet some buddies to celebrate the Broncos. Go into the Super Bowl. That's how long ago it was. Right. And I wrote before I could join the party, I sat in the airport, finished my application, submitted it and showed up three weeks later. And that's where I met Josh and some other founders pitched the idea that based on the premonition that Uber's the biggest taxi cab company in the world. And they don't own a single car. Let's start the biggest moving company in the world and never own a single truck. And so that was our thought is like, hey, people just need help. And throughout the years of going in and helping people with different tasks, we realized that people need help with all sorts of things and businesses need help. And I'm thinking about my chicken coop cleaning. That's definitely not one of my favorite things that you guys figured out. We've done it. We've done chicken coop cleaning. We've shopped back up all the chicken excess. Oh, mine gets spread around the garden. Okay. Okay. So yeah, we could shovel that up for you. And I mean, it's so funny. Like our customers have been our biggest sources of advertising. Right. New ideas. New ideas. And, you know, going to a construction site and rather than paying the construction crew to clean up, they can hire a couple of college kids to come in there. Right. You're not union rage. And that, uh, repeat business is really, you know, kind of opened up. We never even thought about the business to business aspect of it because, you know, best case scenario somebody moves once a year. That's not exactly a good repeat client. Right. I think in 2020, we had six different clients that it spent over 20 grand with us. So it shows you that people are willing to come back to us time and time again. Well, we had a we had a local social here last night in the courtyard next door to the office and had like 30 people burgers and brats and beers and that's we're drinking some left-door beer right now, actually. Oh, perfect. And, uh, and it was me and my two staff, but it was it's a halt to get all the food and tables and chairs and stuff to get ready for that, you know, and maybe next time we should just order two strong guys for an hour and get a lot of room. Yeah. And we've we've set up for weddings. We've worked with catering companies and we've set up entire conventions. We did we staffed 24 people for seven days in a row at the Gaylord to get ready for a big restaurant industry convention. And so I mean, we've we've done more things than we ever really. Yeah. Then I ever wrote down in that business plan template off Google. Right. Well, in such a tough business plan to write because you're like, what's the market space who are the competitors? Yeah, I still don't know. I still don't know what the tam is and the Sam and and all of that. But what I do know is that we've got the blocking and tackling done. We've got a business or we've we provide a service that is in need and we provide a great job for people. It might not be so obvious now to us, but we're starting to turn the corner and recruitment is going well. And I'm really optimistic for Q3. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds really good. So let's talk through that kind of your now, you know, your pitch and business pitch competitions and things like that. Yeah. Are you doing some stuff? Is this like are you building it while you're building it? I guess kind of a yes. We did the exact opposite of what, you know, you think of when you think of a traditional Silicon Valley startup where hey, here's this idea. Let's go get some money. We said no, I've got 200 bucks. Let's get it LLC, a bank account, a website and and that's all we spent to get this thing started. And we ran some ads. We were using our own personal cell phones and the phone started ringing. We would write everything down in a Google sheet that we shared with each other. And we would send out a group text message. Right. And it was, you know, all credit to Josh. Yeah, it was all credit to Josh. I mean, you know, it was his network of friends. And he was the president of the soccer team. And so it was, you know, the club soccer guys that were out there doing jobs. And, you know, we would have a busy day. It's like, man, we've got three jobs today. Holy smokes. You think we're going to be able to pull it off. Yeah. Well, let's let's let's find out. And it was, you know, we worked on the business for three years without taking a paycheck. Yeah, it's circuit me that that's starting in like 2014, 15. We started it. We started in 2016 and we just ran it for the summer. Okay. And then we kind of took a break and, you know, and then brought it back up the next summer and said, hey, you know, this, you know, we had some success. Right. I think we made like 20,000 bucks as a business. We had one co-founder who was like, you know, we had like five grand in the bank at the end of it. He's like, hey, I just want my money and run. I was like, no, man, we're going to reinvest that. We're going to start back up. So we ended up buying him out and negotiating what we thought at the time was like this monster contract. I think we paid him like 800 bucks for his, you know, 20% of labor jack or whatever it was. And, um, and we built it throughout the years very slowly and just the traditional bootstrap way. Yeah. We were fortunate that we were cash flow positive from the very beginning. That's one of the interesting things about founding something and bootstraping it besides is, um, especially if everybody's working full time on it or are significantly, like they can starve it out before it can get there. Yeah. You know, if it's a, if it's a side hustle for everybody and they make $4,000 a month in their main job and they can put some extra sauce on it or whatever that's great, but then it usually doesn't have enough focus. So somebody's got to be that main guy or a couple of people and other people maybe still have to keep making money elsewhere. Yeah. And it was mostly just by pure grit hustle and fighting over nights and weekends. And, you know, fortunately, I did partner with somebody who was a college student who realized like, hey, you know, we, we work on projects on nights and weekends and that's what you do in college. Right. Um, and that was the time that I wasn't slinging real estate. So it worked out. So did you do something else, uh, instead of real estate as a side thing or you just kept the real estate thinking that in a summer as you blew this up and set it back down? Honestly, I was working full time real estate and, you know, I was, I was kind of flying into the radar. I remember. Oh, they didn't know you were doing this stuff on the side, not really. Yeah. So some people did, I didn't, I didn't lie about it, but, you know, I would step into the hallway, take a labor jet call, put out a fire, step back in, go back to smiling and dialing, trying to sell some real estate. And, um, yeah, it's, it was kind of a wild journey to think about it. And, um, you know, unfortunately, I partnered with the right people who kind of ran it and we hired Josh's mom to be our receptionist. And, um, every time I see her, I tell her, hey, you still got a job, you're whenever you want to come back. And she's, she's very content. I was a retired employee of her one. Mayhem. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and she is, it's pretty cool because she's the testament. So she's like, man, I remember how much you guys used to struggle to fill four jobs. I can't believe you guys are doing 20 jobs in a day now. And, um, so it's been pretty cool to, to have her along for that whole journey. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about like that transition out of Google sheets and, and into more elaborate systems and things. And, and if, if you're willing about any, like capital raises or things like that that you use or have done or plan to do or, or anything, I don't know how much is, I don't know anything about that for you guys, really. Yeah. No, I don't. Like what software doesn't come along for that cheap, you know, and if you're just an arbitrage agent on some labor jackers, it takes a while to get there. It's not cheap. And like anything you've probably seen, there's way more underneath the surface than anybody ever realizes. So I believe it was the second summer, 2017, we started, you know, saying, hey, you know, let's build out the software for this. And so we got plugged in with these guys from India. And, um, we interviewed like two different Indian groups. And for five thousand bucks, we had somebody who was, sorry, for five thousand bucks, we had somebody who was willing to build us a website. And, you know, it was going to send out notification that it was going to function just like an app. And, um, so for, so for three months, we sat there and we balanced out either 11 PM to 1 AM calls or 5 AM to 7 AM calls with these developers over in India. And that was the quickest way to blow through 5,000 bucks. Yeah. And they delivered a project to us. And we're like, this is not at all what we asked for. And they're so literal. And, and I don't think they were trying to scam us. I just think it's kind of the culture. They was too hard, probably too. And I think, you know, and also too, it was, I think Josh was 19, 20 years old. And I was a real estate guy. And I couldn't tell you what IT meant if you spotted me the tea. And so we were, you know, we were just in over our heads. And, you know, we would, you know, everything we'd ask these guys, hey, can you, you know, make this work like this? Oh, yeah, sure. No problem. We're happy to do that. They couldn't tell us now. Yeah. So fortunately, we, we ended up getting paired up with another, um, development group right out of the, the industry or actually it was at a mesh. Oh, well, um, the former galvanize, you know, we office out of there. We met up with, uh, a team, shameless and Luciano. And, uh, they were, you know, they said, hey, we can, we can actually build this for you. Yeah. And so we spent, you know, more than we ever thought we would. Right. And, and they really realistic commissions. They, uh, they charge you far less than they should have probably. We got a screaming deal looking back on it, you know, no doubt we got, we got a screaming deal. And, you know, it's, it's so funny. The butterfly effect, the way things came together. And, you know, they built us what we needed to prove out the scale so that we could build something bigger. And, you know, we had like, hey, we want to build an app. And they're like, no, you guys don't need to build an app. You can't afford to build an app. Let's build it this way. And, and it worked. Yeah. And it proved the scale and it functioned. And we ran with that system for two years. Okay. So we launched that in the spring of 2018. And, um, and we outgrew it. And it was, it was the perfect system while we were running, you know, three to seven jobs a day. But once you start getting over that mark in multiple markets, it's didn't have that. Yeah. It was, it was built for one thing. And we were trying to do another for it. Right. So, um, we've continued to innovate and build that product and, and keep layering in these new features and efficiencies that we now needs that we can operate at a bigger scale. And that's, that's what's been super fun about this is we're still, we've got deliverables every Monday, Wednesday and Friday that we're pushing through. And it's super cool to see, you know, the speed and the velocity. Yeah. Let's go on. So we, we held off on raising money. So up until this year, so we took our first time in capital back in February. Okay. Um, and so Josh and I were able to, you know, still own an entire business. Oh, um, just the two of us. Yeah. And then we just said, okay, you know, hey, we've proven enough. We bootstrapped way longer than you don't have to give the house away to get a little cash. Yeah. There's so much opportunity. And yeah, exactly. And so opportunity came knocking and we got, you know, very reasonable terms. And we were fortunate to be blessed to be with guidance to like some capital plus some smarts or is it just quiet money? Are you at liberty? Yeah. Um, you know, obviously, it's, we're not given up, you know, shares of the board and, um, decision making power, but it is welcomed advisors in our courts and, you know, one of our lead investors, you know, kind of served as a fractional CFO and tell cool, you know, get our books right. And, you know, I mean, that's what you need more at this point in time. Yeah, capital is great. And I can build software and do more bells and whistles on my interface and my user experience and stuff. But if all the rest of the stuff I need to do to build a really vibrant business isn't on the team yet. You know, what does mean? Right. And so and that's what we're, we're fortunate for. And, you know, we figured out how to get to this point, but it's a whole new set of things to get to where we need to go. And, you know, we've got ambitions to, to do a real series A, um, in two years. Okay. And, you know, the spreadsheets that I put together, you know, writing, writing my expenses on a receipt and documenting that in my, my Google drive isn't going to cut it anymore. And so, you know, that, that kind of the expertise there has really been helpful. And, and we're still looking for that guidance and that continued mentorship. And, you know, we don't ever want to be the smartest people in the room, fortunately. I'm not too frequently. Yeah, I was going to say I'm never that guy. But, fortunately, I've been, been blessed to be in some good rooms and, and have the ability to listen and block out some things and absorb others. And I like it. So tell me a little bit about the user experience. Like, I, I understand it's, it's an app, right? Is that the primary way that jobs are booked and secured and stuff for you guys now or no? Yeah. So it's still all web based. Okay. So you go online and on your computer, not on your, okay. Yeah. And we've got a true fantastic mobile experience. Okay. But you don't have to download the app. Right. Okay. And so, you know, I always try to spin it as a positive. Everybody's got too many darn apps that they don't use. True. So you don't have to download the app. You just go to our website laborjack.com and you can book and just put it in there. It's almost like over airline tickets or something like that. You're like, I think it's going to be four hours. I need it to be Saturday for two people. What win and where? Yeah. And we'll figure out the who. So that, so that, oh, sorry. So it doesn't even, it's just here's the scale of the job kind of describe it the best you can. Like, I've got a big garage that needs to be cleaned out and organized. And yeah, I've got a big garage and needs to be cleaned out and organized. I would like two people for four hours on Saturday at 2 p.m. Right. And what we realized is, you know, there's a lot of our competitors in the space. And like, hey, we can build these profiles and people can go shopping for who they want. But most of the time, it's just like when you order an Uber, you don't want to pick, you know, Sam, Dave, or Tim, you just want somebody who's smart enough to get you from donate a point B. Well, in the risks of that, I just started thinking of if Sam, Dave, and Tim, you know, it's two white guys and a color person or something. And you're like, well, now I'm discriminating. I just, Tim had a funny look at his eyes. It's the, I don't know. Yeah. And just like the complexities of that makes it unnecessary, in my mind. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, it's tough. And I mean, that's something that we, you know, have had to deal with, too, is not, not necessarily along the color lines, but along the, the, the male first female, the labor jack versus why not labor Jill? And, you know, it was something that, you know, we innocently thought it was like, hey, you know, we built a business for, you know, primarily college, man, it's not exclusive to men, but it's primarily the nature of what we do. And it's kind of hard labor. Yeah, it's, it's more, the job that we have is more appealing to the, the males. Right. And, you know, it's something that we didn't do intentionally. Did you mansplain to somebody about that then and you get in trouble? You know, honestly, we're at the, a pitch competition and I had a brain fart. It's just kind of embarrassing, but I'd love to share it. Sure. We're like, hey, you know, we, we see this opportunities. What we're really building is a scheduling software. And that's true. And so the, the, the vehicle that we chose to do was just labor. And I said, we can, we figure out that this can be used for a sort man of other things. And, you know, and it could be like cleaning or, you know, anything else. And, you know, that, that came off as, you know, me saying, like, oh, this, you know, one is for cleaning, boys for me. Yeah. And it wasn't what I meant. But it is, it is, you know, it is something that is, you know, very relative, especially in today's world. And, you know, we've been blessed. We've had great experiences with female labor jills. And they go out and they, they knock it out, but primarily, there's still going to be 89% labor jacks probably. Exactly. In most markets anyway. Exactly. Plus there's an all girls college somewhere. Well, and, you know, the fortunate thing is, is we give everybody white, black male, female, we give everybody the same interview. Right. And if you're willing to go lift over 100 pounds repeatedly and you want to take on some moving jobs and you're confident in that, we'll love to give you some more opportunities. Yeah, interesting. So I guess what is that? You said, mention the, the possible series A round kind of a ambition in a couple of years and, and to do what that would be like the next version of the software or something or like, what do you want to do with all that money? Go fishing in Florida. Right. In Lamborghini. I saw Lamborghini just today. That's what founders do. Right. Yeah. I mean, really, there's nothing that ties our success to, you know, the geographic locations. I mean, as great as Fort Collins is, you know, we, you're not successful because of Fort Collins. And so we want to spread this, you know, all over the country. And to do that is going to take some money and to open up a new market the way that we want to do it and make a big enough splash so that we can attract ample supply and demand for jobs and workers. So we need, we need to spend some money in advertising. Yeah. And we don't have Josh's soccer connections in every market that we want to open up. So it's how do we, we build that and how do we partner with other club sports teams and other fraternities and get on more popular podcasts and get on podcasts. Yeah. So, so that's our goal. And to come with that is we need more robust software. And so just like we're building it now to handle 25 to 50 jobs a day at the next level, we will need it to handle 100 to 500 jobs a day. And then, you know, 500 to 1000 jobs a day and continues the software needs different functionalities. And that's all, you know, just takes time and people. And so right now we're investing in three things. It's the technology to continue to innovate the process. The people to spread our passion and the advertisement to let people know that we exist. Yeah. Because even in our own backyard and for Collins, not everybody knows who Laborjack is. No, I would say that's probably true. I saw your first at the Inosphere maybe must have been 2016-17, I guess, the 17-18. I don't know, is a pitch competition of some sort. Okay. And you came in with this sporty red coats on and stuff. Yeah. And it just made sense to me. It just made sense to me right from the start. Like, oh, this is an arbitrage play with technology. It seems like brilliant. Yeah. And it's funny. You know, I think I remember the first Inosphere pitch we gave, one of somebody that we had actually worked with in real estate and sold them a property was in the audience. And he was like, this is a terrible idea. Why, if I want to move, I'll hire movers. If I want, you know, landscapers, I'll hire landscapers. Why would I come to you? I was like, well, you know, I think the demand is just for good help. And right now the moving companies are really expensive. And we're a lot more affordable and, you know, we'll see. So, you know, not everybody thought it was a great idea from the beginning. And fortunately, sales cures all. Right. And, you know, it's, you remember those conversations of the people that doubted you and that put that chip on your shoulder. And it's been great motivation to kind of prove them wrong. Yeah. So in your dream land, you know, the series, they go as well in two years and, you know, five years down, 10 years down, or what do you have like other things that you want to do? Is this a sell it to somebody? Is this a keep scaling it as you want to be the next, you know, whoever the Uber guy, well, not the Uber guy, he's got bad reputation. Yeah, but, you know, I get the drift. Yeah. And so what's your, I not that you've necessarily figured that out, you know, that's a great question ever. You know, the investors now that we're starting to have those conversations are, well, what is the exit strategy? And traditionally, he's like, hey, we just want to build something cool and grow as big as we can and let the cards play out. Yeah. And investors are like, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. Would you like to add to that question again? Yeah. So now all they care about is the exit. So, you know, what I did is that Josh and I is brilliant, which we aren't. But there are smarter people to scale this to the level that it needs to be. And so we want to continue to build it and be along for that ride as long as we can continue to add value. But we see there's, you know, multiple different groups of people that could acquire our business and really take it to the next level. Yeah. Um, we're not quite at the level where we think, right, you're not a retirement money yet. No, we're still having fun and we're still learning and, you know, I think it's not too far-fetched to see three, five years down the road. We could get acquired and that may come with us continuing to work on building, building it out for another couple years. And, you know, I never thought I'd have a job again, but it may happen. Right. But yeah, that's kind of the plan is let's let's build this to a level where we're excited about it. And if the right offer comes along, we'll take it. So if you took it, like what would happen then? Say you're you're 37 years old and they bought you and they don't really want to keep you around. You're you're 40, 38 years old. You got a few million dollars each, you and Josh and whoever other founders and investors. What do you do then? What do you do? Do you want any millionaire? Would you like to live in a van down by the river? Right. You know, it's so funny, but I think that's really what I would do is I would just kind of escape. I've always talked about my exit trip. Yeah. I would go float from in a raft from Colorado down to Lake Powell. Then see how long you want to hang out at Lake Powell. Yeah. But like like any plan, you know, those who know me well say you're not going to stay retired for very long. So I always talk about how I'm ready to retire. I'll pick up something new. I mean, what I really love is building something and taking an idea that somebody says won't work and saying, yeah, this will. Yeah. So we'll see, unfortunately, God has a plan for me. I don't know what exactly it will be, but I'm just going to keep showing up and I'm going to get punched in the face. I'll punch back and we'll see how the cards fall and have some fun along the way. Well, I hope opening these new markets and raising these dollars when that time is the right and stuff. It just becomes easier and easier. I think maybe I need to gather some publicity. Do something crazy. Get yourself in the papers. All publicity is good publicity, right? Yeah. We always get to brainstorm these ideas for new ways to open up college campuses and how to do that. I want to talk about marketing just a little bit maybe before we drift into the because you guys have outside marketing support or who figures out how to do your marketing and what that should be because that seems like such a big deal on both fronts, the finding of the workers but also marketing to the people that need your services and might not even realize that they need them. Yeah, and there is a certain education that goes through because a lot of people aren't familiar that there's a gig economy approach out there. Right. And how much money did Uber spend before it became a household name? Totally. So we're investing in digital ads and trying to build a social presence. It still doesn't exist on Facebook and Instagram. We're there, but it's very small. Yeah. And but we're investing heavily into SEO and SEO. Are you doing it all internal or do you use outside marketing support? Both. Okay. Yeah. So we've got our team and we're partnering with an SEO agency and we've worked with some marketing agencies, but we're particular. You got to do it yourself. So we marketing efforts are done internally. We've got a PR team that's been great and we've been fortunate to be featured in Yahoo Finance and the LA Times and some bigger publications. But like we talked about earlier, we're still we're still a little dog in a big world out there. For sure. For sure. And so yeah, it is the you know, what is that big viral splash event? Yeah. And I think it's TikTok videos. You should just invest all your efforts. Yeah. Actually, it might actually be a good source. We are, but the people with all the money don't do TikTok. Well, but the people who don't have any money who might start needing it. Right. Yes. That's where you find your workers. Yeah. And are you broke? Do you remember what it was like to have a job? Yeah. What reminds you? I mean, we literally ran an advertising campaign that just said, hate your job. And you're just like, you know, just to catch the attention of somebody who might hate their job. Yeah. And Oh, yeah. And actually, that's an interesting thing. I'm just thinking about like Uber was a little bit that way or is a little bit that way, but there's that barrier of you going to have a new car and be kind of flexible and, you know, no DIYs and all that kind of stuff, right? But for people that do hate their job and know they want to get a different job, you can kind of be a lubrication to the economy of, hey, you can quit your job and do this and make $3,000 a month at least for a couple months until you find your next real thing and we're okay with that. Yeah. And absolutely. And that's what we pride ourselves on and we advertise that you can work as much as little as you want. And there are people that consistently pick up 10 hours a week and make their extra yeah, spending money for whatever their vice may be. And there are people that, you know, hustle it hard and can make, you know, four grand a month. And, you know, the still to this day, the top labor jack, the guy who's completed more jobs than anybody is a local CSU student. Nick Ross real shout, give him a shout out. Shout out Nick. And he didn't have a car his whole college experience and he just found a way to, you know, ride a bike or get on with friends and make it happen. So it just shows you that, hey, there's no excuse. No barriers. If you're willing to work hard and, and hustle, you can lift a hundred pounds, you can lift a hundred pounds. There's an opportunity for you. I like it. And so it's all we can do is give somebody an opportunity and a chance. Yeah, I love it. So let's get into our faith family politics. We talked to touch about your family, but yeah, you choose what you want to talk about first most. None of them. Yeah. I mean, we can talk about politics. I don't know what kind of we started a little bit. This COVID has been been great for firing up the conspiracy theories. And, you know, I'm now convinced that half of the politicians out there are just pedophiles working with the media and, and, you know, what is actually going on? Nobody cares about, uh, you know, what's in the betterment of America. Right. And, you know, that that's, that's part of the ship is alive and well. Right. Yeah. And it's, it pisses me off so much because Donald Trump had the ability to be what I think the country needed a non-Washington, you know, politician who's self-made. He just happens to be a giant narcissistic asshole. Right. And couldn't, and couldn't do, you know, the little things and be somewhat political. And, and yeah. So it's, I agree. It's a, you know, it's a swamp. And, you know, he was like, I'm the swamp trainer and ever. Yeah. And, unfortunately, it was like, yeah, I don't know if I believe that. You kind of meshed into the swamp. Right. Right. And then, and then I think the media is just the ultimate killer of, you know, the American dream and, and it just, I think, you know, back to what we were talking about in the beginning about, you know, there's no incentive to work hard. There's just no self accountability anymore. And if something happens, you know, the government will bail you out and it kind of goes back into the faith thing where if you don't, you know, rather than believing God will pull you through tough times, you believe the government will. Right. Which one of those do you believe? Yeah. What does that, you know, do for you? So, I don't know, it's, it's interesting to think about. I think I used to always think that the media was controlled by the politicians. And now I think the politicians are controlled by the media and Republican Democrat. It doesn't really matter. They're all out there pushing an agenda, trying to gain power and wealth for well, increased divisiveness besides so that they can have a reason. Totally. And yeah, and I mean, and something as simple as wearing a mask, like, why does that got to be confrontational? Like, if you don't, you know, if you don't, if you feel fine without wearing a mask, okay. If you feel like you want a mirror mask and it helps you feel comfortable going out, great. Like, let's let people enjoy life, man. So that's, that's where I stand. I mean, I'm not even trying to tote the political line, but yeah, yeah, it's, it's interesting. It's, um, I don't know what to think of it. I try to just, fortunately, I work, you know, enough that I don't get to watch. Yeah. So like, I've heard what you're saying said so many times, out of my 30 podcasts or whatever, probably about 20 of them. And like, yeah, there's this partisanship. And I pretty much kind of disgusted with the Republicans and the Democrats. I used to be a Democrat now. Now I'm an independent. I used to be Republican. Now I'm a libertarian. Like, how does the common man, how does that voice get out? Do you have any ideas around that? I mean, I think something else, somebody else can think about that. I mean, I think it's just like this. I mean, it's, it's the grassroots podcast. The unfortunate thing is that the mainstream media or whatever they've always say, like, oh, these are crazy podcasts are a curved bearer in the low cost periods. They said the government doesn't know what's best for us. Yeah, these, these black jobs, well, you know, they're just, they're just so far out there. Like, no, we're actually the ones in the middle. And we're just, we're calling it like we see it. And I mean, like watching the Jeffrey Epstein documentaries and like how many, how many political powers have, at bay have like been associated with this guy. Right. Bill Gates now. And the stories are still just getting swept under the rug. Right. And then they want to talk about Epstein is the new book I heard. Yeah. It's a verb now. You got Epstein. Yeah. And you know, the fact that like, oh, yeah, Epstein didn't kill himself. Well, yeah, his cellmate was a crooked New York City cop. Right. And or this, this kind of Fauci starting to eat a little crow on the natural origins of the coronavirus now. Like to me, I was like, so it happened like a half a mile away from the wet market was this research lab with in a function research, but we're just going to rule that out real quick like. Right. And Trump's a xenophobe for existing that it could have been someone that the Chinese had it right handed. And yeah, I mean, it's how that's how the meme the other day, it's like, what do you call somebody who wins an argument against the liberal? It's a racist. Right. And it's like, you know, it's kind of true. It's like, you know, you start bringing up points. And then it's also all of a sudden, it's name calling. Yeah, not see. Right. Yeah. And then, and I think it's, it is on both sides of the fact, but it's, you know, like, oh, no, Trump, Trump's just a xenophobe. And, and unfortunately for, you know, the middle steered person, he kind of fed into it. Sure. Yeah. And he, he built the monster they wanted him to build. He took the cheese. Right. Well, it plus like, he's that much of a narcissistic asshole. So they toyed with him a little bit. He's like, the China virus. It's, you know, and he's like, yeah, China. Yeah. And, you know, at some points, it's funny. But in, and maybe that's just like, you know, the comedy central type of mind. I mean, people are literally getting their political information from a media outlet called comedy central. Yeah. Or they had lines of what happened on Saturday night live that we get. Exactly. And they're taking that as, you know, the gospel effect. And, you know, the social media stuff is great, except for now every idiot has a voice. Yeah. And nobody has a mind. Right. Right. And I mean, it's, it's so funny. Just like, you know, the memes that are spent, like that are complete nonsense. Like I saw one that's like, yeah, this is the first year where every Friday will end in an odd day. And somebody's like, oh, man, isn't that interesting? I was like, that's not true. Look at a calendar. I don't remember exactly what it was. But it was like, oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed. I just thought it was kind of an interesting fact. I'm like, yeah, that's not even that. Yeah. It's not even really that. Even if it was true, it's not even interesting. My favorite quote is don't believe everything you read on the, on the internet from Abe Lincoln. Right. Yeah. So don't believe everything you think. I think that might be Sam Harris. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think the political world we're in right now is, is a shame. And I think the media is to blame. And, um, you know, it's all power comes from controlling three groups. And it's the police, the politicians and the press. And interesting. And people are, well, the police are trying to be pushed down. Well, exactly. Like, you know, there's a national police force coming in. That's going to be the worst thing for this country's history. Yeah. And it's about to save us from the racist police forces and all these liberal cities, of course. Right. Yeah. And it's with a national police force, which should be perfect is so much. And it's like the same people that are like, nobody should own a gun. We, we, you know, there's a problem called the police. And it's like, oh, but we should, but they don't have guns that have two gun bodyguards. Yeah. And then it's just that the hypocrisy on both sides of it is, is just ridiculous. Like my favorite Republicans, I mean, I'm definitely right leaning, but you know, I can call it, call it out when I see it. And it's like, you know, we need complete free markets and, you know, business owners need to choose. And then they'll walk up and they'll be like, this business demands that I wear a face mask. That's bullshit. And I'm not doing it. I'm like, well, then don't shop there. Right. This is their free market. Right. Right. To set the rules. Yeah. You're, you're, your rights and at their doorstep, if you really believe in their rights. And here's your right is to go somewhere that doesn't. And I see it on the other end where it's like, if a business doesn't want to enforce a mass policy, but the government makes them that's wrong. I mean, I tend to agree, but that's dangerous talk there, Mr. It is. Well, it was, well, actually, apparently, like in the last couple of weeks, coronavirus has gone, because I don't know what, if I've she said, right. I mean, anyway, it'll probably come back when, you know, something else will get leaked about, you know, more pedophilia stuff. Right. Coronavirus will come back. Yeah, at least 100 Biden in China. And that'll be a big surge. Exactly. And then all of a sudden, yeah, this is, this is now to, to distract the people who might be, you know, picking up a cent that could go somewhere. Right. Right. Well, let's touch on faith, faith and family a little bit more. Um, kudos to your mom for doing a lot of the, the hard labor in terms of raising this rambunctious and arguably, uh, it was not an easy job. She had. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm very fortunate. I got a big, wow, Greek family that that come from. And really, I wouldn't have, you know, blonde hair, green eyed. Yeah. Yeah. You look more like an Irishman maybe. Yeah. My grandparents are straight off the boat. Interesting. Um, but yeah. And so you got a big, loud, close, Greek family and did they come to Colorado right away or, yeah, I know the bustling metropolis at Casper, Wyoming. Really? Yeah. Greeks and Casper. The Greeks actually and Casper are pretty big. So grandparents, or I guess the great grandparents got a railroad job. Okay. Through Ellis Island, my grandpa went over to, to Greece and his first trip back after he, he had been married to, uh, I don't know, a white lady and it didn't work out. So I went back to Greece, dated my grandma for two weeks, brought her home. Yeah. His, his best friend married her sister and he's like, Hey, you got to check out. Yeah. I mentioned she's got a sister. Well, you know, one of the things about life is if you, you know, everybody's like trying to find their soulmate and stuff like that. And it looks like maybe you're a single guy. But, you know, if you decide that somebody's your soulmate and that you're going to be married to them for the rest of your life, you can choose, you can find a way to be really happy with that person and love that person for the rest of your life. Yeah. And, um, I do have to say I've got a wonderful girlfriend and I want to be ashamed if I didn't, you want to go further shout it out. Shout out. Shout out. I love you. Um, but it's, uh, I mean, it is, you know, somebody once told me, it's like whoever you, you marry, it's a choice. They're, you're not, there's not one person that's destined for you to meet. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, making the best of, and you're both to each other. Yeah. And making the best of each other's qualities, accepting the things that you don't like and, and embracing the things that you do. Yeah. And so it's super interesting in that regards. And you look at, you know, they were basically on an arranged marriage. Not really. They had their choice. But, you know, two weeks of dating. And that loyalty was stronger than any marriage I've ever seen. Yeah. Um, well, plus you got a chance to move to America. All right. She, she got, and I know how Wyoming was going to be. But she, I don't even think she knew what Wyoming was. Um, but yeah, her, her story, I mean, we could, we could dedicate a very good podcast. It is her, her story surviving World War II and the Nazi occupation. And she's still with the ingrace. No, she, unfortunately, she passed away about a year and a half ago, but she, she lived to 92 and raised five children and, um, yeah, I can't even count all the grandchildren. So quite a matriarch. Yeah. Super cool. And she's, she's a very special, special person. Yeah. So let's see, uh, Greek Orthodoxes didn't really understand it around there. Yeah. Yeah. Around there. Uh, I don't know some of the Greek stories. Christosanasty. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, we just celebrated the Holy Pasca, which is Easter, but they celebrated a different calendar. I wish I could tell you why. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When they tell me to show up. Interesting. So what's, is, is, is that something you're actively involved with is the Greek church or here and there. You go to family things or whatever. What's faith for you? You know, faith, faith for me personally is, you know, I believe in the power of prayer. I believe that there is a higher power and it's gotten me through a lot of tough times. Um, I also believe that there's a lot of corruption in, in the, in the Christian church system and the various Christian churches. Yeah. And, you know, just like there's good Republicans and good Democrats. I think there's good really priests. Yeah. Maybe not. Um, but, uh, you know, it's, I, I'm not big into the church scene other than the fact that my mom really appreciates it when I go with her. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, I think one thing that's interesting about the Greek church is that, you know, it was there kind of before Catholicism and before the Christian church was really a stimulus and it was the original. Yeah. And Catholicism kind of took over, tried to kind of take over and the Greek kind of like, uh, you just, you just go over there and we'll just be over here and you guys are weird. You got stuff going. Well, and I think what is the big difference is we don't believe in the pope. I don't have a pope and there's nobody that's, you know, on that level with God and, um, which I think is, is good. And I think the fact that, you know, our priests can marry and have a relationship seems kind of cruel not to. Well, and it's, you know, it's, yeah, you starve somebody for sex and they end up just with fucking little boys. I'm sorry, I didn't need to go there. It's exactly what we were both thinking though. Right. And, and it's just like, and that's probably, you know, just because it's the first time we heard about it, it's probably been going on for a thousand years. Right. And it's pretty fucked up. Yeah. And so, yeah, skeptical of the power of, that's what I always used to say was, uh, power crops, you know, absolute power crops, absolutely. And that's part of why I have libertarian leanings and, and I want there to be less power to be wielded. Period. Totally. Because nobody can be trusted to wield a lot of power without getting nasty and yucky. And that's why America's been such a great country for so many years is because the government system was set up so that no one person or no one group had too much power. Right. And that's what I think everybody is real is forgetting is that, hey, you know, the bill of rights are for the people to limit the government power. It's not the government's opportunity to limit the, you know, the rights of the people. Right. Yeah. It's gotten so backwards. Yeah. Well, I'm for less government. Whatever that means. I, uh, a hundred years ago, there was about 100 private employees for every one government employee in the country. Yeah. How many do you think it is today? So 100 to one. Now there's probably, I'll go eight government employees. No, it's got more than that. 12. Eight private, no, I think it's six private to one government now used to be a hundred to one. Now it's six to one. Oh, I was thinking a hundred to eight. I was going the other way. So I was at like. Yeah. Okay. Now there's only eight. Yeah. Now there's only six or eight, five or six, probably private citizens paying taxes to support that one government employee. Yeah. And well, it's, it's crazy too. Like, when I first got out of college, one of my best friends got a job working, um, for the federal government, right, with the comptroller or the current there. Sure. I'm buttering which is a great gig. And he was probably bright and capable. But here's, here's what pissed me off. And it wasn't anything as his fault. He literally couldn't work more than 40 hours a week. Right. And so he had all these great benefits. This high paying job, he's making more money than me. And he traveled, he traveled to different jobs. Yeah. Great, yeah. Great job security. And so like, we would go out and drink and like his next day, his Monday, it's like, oh, I've got to go down to La Janta. And that was part of his 40 hours a week was his travel time down to driving to La Janta. Right. And it's like, why is a government paying my idiot buddy to drive to La Janta? And just, yeah, I hear you. There's no efficiency. It's the best and brightest for the good federal jobs now. And the private industry can get those people. Right. And then they put out these rules that limit innovation. And right, you know, yeah, minimum family, leave act things on employees. And this and that. You're like, uh, just trying to make it work with all the rest of your other rules. Right. And then the big one that comes into play for us is the contractor versus employee thing. Right. And it's so funny because the, you know, the pro employee people, the, the liberal leaders are like, hey, you know, these people are, are, you know, classifying these workers as independent contractors. And they're not. So just so they don't have to provide them insurance. No, the only reason why the liberals are upset is because there's tax loopholes available as the independent contractors and they collect less tax revenue. Right. And now that it's carrying on, it's actually creating a dent in the actual overall tax income. Right. And so it's so bad. Which if they were actually like those, these people are the working class. And so they should want them to pay less taxes. Totally. And yeah. And it's like, but it's, it's so backwards. And people think about it too. Like, oh, man, I'm an independent contractor. My employer's, you know, he, he, or not my employer, I should say, the, the provider of work for me, they're out to get me. It's like, no, I mean, you have more tax opportunities. You get to keep more and write off stuff. Yeah. And you now have the opportunity to, to play in a lot of the loopholes that have been set up that are previously only for. Yeah. Real owners are. Yeah. Exactly. Right. But, but, but somebody that has those opportunities. So, yeah. So if there's one thing on the same team there, if there's one thing that I want to say here, it's that the 1099 contractor is a benefit for the worker and a disabenefit, the only person who doesn't benefit for that is the government. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody else wins. Everybody else wins. So why would everybody else wins? Yeah. That's it. And California is doing their best to make it look like it's the business that's trying to chase a lot of commerce out of that state. We'll see if they're successful or not. They're working on it. A lot of people leave it. A lot of people leave it through the reason why Port Collins house prices are going up this fall. It was the, the, my source was talking about Boise and Portland. Okay. It costs eight times as much to rent a U Hall from Portland and take it to Boise than it did to rent a U Hall from Boise to Portland. Because nobody was taking a U Hall from Boise to Portland. Everybody's trying to get the hell out of there. Yeah. And that's, that's so interesting. I'm sure California has some of the same thing going on. Well, yeah. And then what was it the few years ago that's like the states that are are going up in electoral votes. I don't know. I'm going to butcher the statistic. But all the net migration is going into the red states. Totally. Like why? Well, it's because the extreme liberal ideologies crush business. Yeah. Let's, let's jump to your local experience. All right. That crazy experience of your life that you're willing to share. And if there's some learning involved or whatever, we were chatting about some maybe options before we started here. But what would you like to share? I mean, I think it would really be just just jumping into a business or going, you know, after spending five years in commercial real estate going into a CSU startup weekend with a bunch of college kids being the the gray bush of the group and, you know, pitching this crazy idea. And the butterfly effect that's come out of that. And, you know, running around, you know, it took a Friday off of work and didn't explain why. Just said, I'm taking this Friday off and wandered around old town doing customer discovery with a bunch of 18, 19 year old kids. Sure. And it's, it's led me here today. And how this five, six years later, I suppose? Yes. That was going on five, it's cross five years now. It's crazy. So that would have been March of 2016. Yeah. And, you know, just taking that, that plunge and, you know, and I played it slow. And I had a lot of good times since then. You know, and that's what life's all about. It's, it's continued learning and always evolving yourself. And fortunately, that's what I'm here to do. Awesome. I know. And now know what a, how to website code works. I've never thought that I would. I'm having a lot of fun and I'm smiling more days than not. Sometimes I'm not definitely losing the hair a little quicker than I'd like. And I'm feeling like I've aged 10 years and six months at times. But yeah. It's not like not as bad as being president, but being a founder is probably one of the nearly as stressful. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You should, I don't know if you ever googled pictures of Elon Musk from when he was like before he exited PayPal. And like how old he looks compared to how old he looks now. Right. It's, it's, it's pretty human. Well, Obama is a pretty good one too. He's like, he's great. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. He took it seriously. He's like, that's part of how you can know. Trump didn't age at all. He tore the end. Like when he found out people didn't love him anymore and stuff, he kind of started aging. But before that, it was pretty kind of didn't touch him as much. But he was also older to begin with. So for percentage of years. Yeah. Yeah. You can't, can't log it as much. But yeah, I think Trump is, is a great anomaly of America pop culture for, you know, it'll be interesting to see what the textbooks read about him for sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. Well, tell people that are interested whether they're interested in finding some good work or whether they're interested in having stuff moved or, or maybe even, you know, keep an eye out for that A round down the line. How do they find labor jack? How do they get ahold of you and learn more? I'm pretty easy to get ahold of. So go to laborjack.com and our phone number is there and you guys have a Twitter, Insta, things like that too. We have an Instagram and a Facebook. Do not look at the labor jack Twitter account. That is not us. So now everybody's going to look at the labor jack Twitter. Yeah. But yeah, somebody unfortunately got the labor jack Twitter that was in us and the real labor jack. Can you get that one? Yes. We do have a labor jack, but labor jack Twitter. I don't even know what it is. Very popular, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Who would have thought it? But yeah, we are still raising some money. So there's a convertible note out there that if anybody's looking to place some cash, we do have a little bit of room left before we close out that round. And there's obviously something that we're pretty proud of. And we think great growth ahead and anything you need an extra set of strong hands for moving yard work. You're a small business that just needs a variable workforce to get through your busy times. There is a labor shortage going on right now, but we do have we do have people that are eager to get to work and we'll do a good job. Awesome. And more importantly, if you're somebody who doesn't mind doing a little heavy lifting and need some extra side cash, labor jack dot com. Absolutely. Good. Well, I've always had a pretty good knack for spot and successful companies in the making and yours has been one of those to me since the first time I learned about it. So I'm looking forward to that big cash out in the flow trip down to Lake Powell. All right. You got to come with me. So thank you so much, Kurt. I really appreciate it's been an absolute pleasure to be here. All right. Well, let's do it again. All right, got speed. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the local experience podcast. This is Kurt Bear, founder of the local think tank and host of the local experience. And I'm here with Rory Sharer, local business developer and host of the local shorts episodes. We hope you heard some new ideas and business perspectives in this episode. Our mission and all that we do, including this podcast, is to share collaborative business ideas and solutions that uplift the business community. Subscribe and follow us for your listen to podcasts to get new episodes as they are released. Curious about logo? You can learn more about us at localthinktakes.com where you'll find more information about our chapters, business resources and events for business owners and seniors. If you're looking for perspective, accountability and encouragement along your business journey, why not apply for a chapter near you today? Why not? Why not? We'll catch you next time on the in-depth local experience podcast with me, Kurt. And with me, Rory, provide size business lessons in the local shorts.