EXPERIENCE 259 | Confronting Livestock Predation with Wolf-Friendly Technology - Carolyn Johnson, Founder & CEO of GuardUs Innovations.

My guest on today's podcast was Carolyn Johnson, founder and CEO of Garda's Innovations. A mechanical engineer with a background in biology and product development, Carolyn became fascinated by the wolf-free introduction in Colorado, and especially with the lack of success that livestock predation deterrents were having. The cost of the state of Colorado have grown well beyond projections already, and if the wolves are to grow a number, the livestock encounters must become more rare, or the project will be unsustainable to the state and to ranchers. Enter Garda's Innovations, Carolyn's product and software startup, which uses collars on the animals, especially cattle and sheep, equipped with sensors, lights and noises, and all AI-informed and networked to keep the wolves away. Garda's products also work on other predators such as big cats and bears, and even ravens from choosing livestock as what's for dinner. Carolyn is in the thick of it, with beta product testing, fundraising, lobbying and both hardware and software development and full swing. She's also hyper-smart, and if my eye for talent is correct, it won't be long before you're reading about how a Garda's technology saved the wolf-free introduction project in Colorado, and is now keeping herds safer and ranchers more informed about their stock than ever before. So tune in on the front end of this journey, and please enjoy, as I did my conversation with Carolyn Johnson. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the local experience podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy, and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits, so pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. My guest today is Carolyn Johnson, and she is the founder and CEO of Garda's Innovations. Welcome, Carolyn. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for being here. I love inspirational founders, and really since we had that coffee the first time, I've been looking forward to this conversation. So, and that was what? That was in the fall. Yeah, and so maybe set the stage for our listeners, like what is Garda's innovation? And then let's jump into like what's happened since then, because I suspect there's been a few updates. Yeah, great, perfect. Awesome. Yeah, so Garda's Innovations is a company that I started that is an absolute passion project for me. So I, this is maybe a little over a year ago now, was innocently watching a PBS special about the reintroduction of the wolves in Colorado, and how it's going with our ranching community, and it has a lot of different perspective while life biologists. So they're trying to provide a full-rounded view point of this situation, kind of. Yeah. I know it's been a lot more expensive than advertised. This is true. Yes, it has. And so the short story is looking at the rancher wolf conflict really grabbed me, and I just thought, wow, there's got to be a better way to protect livestock, and therefore protect our wolves that we're trying to reintroduce. So you're like both of them, like you love it that the wolves are here and can't be having them eat in all these cows, they're not going to be around. Yeah, I mean, I cheap, I guess. I completely understand that a healthy ecosystem has a apex predator, and I understand that this reintroduction is a very quick in terms of time frame, kind of a thing, and our ranchers are just like we voted, we're doing it. Right, exactly. So yeah, I just saw the state of affairs, and knew I had to help, and I've always been really passionate about animals really since I was a small child. So I have a engineering consultancy, so mechanical design engineer, and the credentials there, and then I've been in project management systems engineering, kind of the full sort of gamut and engineering world, and I just thought, how can I help from my skill set? Yeah, because I know that I can. Yeah. Well, you got both kind of a product brain and a process to bring it to life, and the deep passion to care about the problem. Right. We call perspavirants at local threat tank, is that we've got both perspiration and perseverance, and you're willing to kind of push it through. Yeah, absolutely. So I tell people that I got recruited to this mission. I didn't choose this project, this project chose me because I just felt absolutely tractor-beamed in to help. So yeah, it just became a journey of exploring what are the current non-lethal deterrence that are out there, what it's working, whereas the opportunity. And so... You didn't have an idea for a product at all at the time. You were just researching what's the problem, really. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And just based on what I was seeing in this particular documentary, I knew that there had to be a better solution out there than our current tools, right? Okay. So yeah, it was a deep dive into what is the gold standard currently, or the standard plural, what are approaches. And I basically created a huge tapestry of a network of all vested stakeholders. So ranchers, wildlife biologists, academia, and conflict mitigation, especially with Colorado Parks and Wildlife. I remember that it's got a stake in the conversation kind of. Yeah. Anyone who's touched by it, and yeah, and so I did a bunch of research through that community independently, and came up with an idea that I stress-tested with this community, and then built a company around it. So pretty excited. And what's the... You said kind of a network of systems, network of people, but also a bit of a network of systems as well, or how much would you like to explain about the solution that you're... Oh, sure. Creating. Yeah. Or have created and refining is probably more accurate. Yeah, good questions. So from the research, and I was fortunate enough to connect with some of the lead researchers in large carnivore conflict, specifically Dr. Stuart Breck at CSU. Okay. He also has USDA ties. And from his research, there are three key aspects that, if your non-lethal deterrent can implement those three different aspects, you can expect an order of magnitude more efficacy than what's on the ground, presently. Okay. So the orders of magnitude. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what it needs. That's what it needs. Right. We're a long ways from the target right now. Yes, exactly. So yeah. So the short story, I went through a lot of iterations. And can you... Maybe before we go there, what is the solutions being offered currently? That might set the groundwork a little more. Yeah. Good question. So what is being deployed currently? So there's turbofladry, which is basically electric fencing that has little red flags on it. Okay. And so it's... Oh, and so like predators see those fences and they learn that that's a shocky kind of fence? Yeah, exactly. So wolves in particular are very neophobic, meaning they're afraid of new and novel things. So we can really take advantage of that aspect. But yeah, flapping flags are scary, getting shocked, obviously, is a deterrent. And so the issue there is that for turbofladry, it can be effective up to about 60 days because they're incredibly smart and they adapt. Right. And it's a static. And it's not going to kill them. They figure that out. Or there's a place to get underneath the fence. And plus it's got to be tremendously costly. Some of these ranges, you know, they're near open ranges. I got this pasture that's 6,000 acres. 10,000 plus acres. Yeah, it's a formidable expensive. I mean... If you want $25 beef, we can do that. Right, right. So it's... And then, you know, even when you deploy it, you have to go and weekly, maintain on a weekly basis. Right. I mean, it's a whole thing. And it doesn't work on your other predators either. Coyote go right through it and other animals. I mean, it's particularly effective for wolves for a short period of time. Right. But thank gosh, we have it. Right? Like I know. That's the best terrible solution we have currently. Right. Right. So... Yeah, there's range riders, which is basically human presence on horses. Yeah. That survey... Like Yellowstone style, like hanging out with the cows for months at a time. Right. So... Take in turns, I guess, because nobody wants that job. I mean, it's... Yeah, there's a lot of seasonal workers, people who are off-college for the summer, excited to drop it. I get to use a free horse for the whole summer. I get paid for it. Oh my god. Right. So there's a huge variability in effectiveness, just like any profession. Right. So that's part of it. The other part of it is that we are limited to our human senses. Right? Like we don't see well at night. We can't even smell, but we don't even... You know, that's... Right. Dogs smell better than they see anyway. Right. And it's easier sometimes, hunting at night. Yeah. So I've actually dug into the research on this to see what is the efficacy. And per the literature, as of right now, I couldn't actually find there's any efficacy of rangewriters. Oh, really? There is anecdotal confidence from, you know, ranching. Yeah. People that employ that system have arguably a little bit less kills, but it's hard to prove it. It's hard to prove it. And, you know, even if you do have a rangewriter, they need a sleep and they need to take time off. Sure. So you've got gaps. So rangewriting is part of it. Lifestyle Guardian dogs are, you know, more in the realm of sheep. Sure. Yeah. So livestock guardian dogs can be used and are to a very limited degree with cattle operations, but the sheep operations are heavily reliant. Okay. And I know of like the sheep operation or sheep feeders and stuff over, you know, by alt and whatnot, but where are the sheep raised in Colorado? They're kind of all over. They're, yeah, I mean, most anywhere cows are, you can put sheep's there instead. Yeah. I mean, cattle kind of get the premier pasture. Right. And then sheep kind of get the sea grade stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they get, they get, you know, pushing the mountains for the most part, just economically. That's kind of how it works out. But unfortunately, the mountains are my life corridors and prime predator have a sheep looks like a lot easier dinner than a cow. Yeah. Imagine. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So the sheep folks, I mean, they've been dealing with predators, all types of predators for the beginning of, you know, sheep, right? That's called to be eating sheep. Right. That's why we have like nine different species of sheep protecting dogs. Right. Right. Exactly. But, you know, for the cattle folks, the whole predator threat is, is a newer thing. But, um, but yeah, back to livestock guardian dogs, they can be effective. The issue is if, I mean, for one, you need a lot of training because what is livestock guardian dog? Well, it's relative of the wolf. And what does the wolf want to do? It wants to eat the sheep. And even if they don't, they'll be trained not to eat the mama sheep's, the baby ones are, look like a nice little snack. Yeah. It smells so good. Yeah. They're very easy targets. So, um, so the problem is sometimes livestock guardian dogs unfortunately can depredate directly a sheep. That's a, you know, a training thing and obviously a selection thing. You know, you're off the team. Right. You have no puppies either. Right. Right. Reallocate you over there. Um, and then, I mean, the other issue is that they, they can, I mean, they take a lot of wildlife in general, right? Sort of indiscriminately. So, oh, right. For the folks who are more ecologically oriented, that's, you know, more important for them. So that dogs out there eating bunnies and stuff, you mean? Yeah. All the things or whatever. Just indiscriminately. Yeah. Right. Um, so, but, you know, that being said, they are, you know, a fantastic tool and it can be a fantastic. Kind of the best got out of the three that you described in a way. In a way. And, but more specific to sheep, because cattle and the livestock guardian dogs don't, uh, blend quite as well. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. So, you investigated all these things and you said, well, we've got a couple of twos and a three, maybe on a ten-point scale of effectiveness. Right. What do we do about it? Right. Yeah. And there are some simple noise and sound makers. There's fox lights, for example. Oh, yeah. We used to have blackbird scares, you know? Yeah. Same idea. Same idea. Little bangers, propane bangers. Yeah. That worked for about a month, you know? A few weeks. Right. And the birds get used to the background music, you know? Right. Right. I mean, well, the problem with like a fox light, for example. And again, I mean, thankfully, we have these tools at all. And a fox light is like for a chicken coop or something like that, I'm thinking. Yeah. So a fox light basically is, it looks like a coffee can. And it has, it's advertised to have a one-year battery, but basically at night, it will make all different types of light patterns. Oh. It looks like a police car light from a car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the, so if you can get the cow's to stand close to the fox light, sort of, but they wander wherever they want to. Yeah. That's one, right? They wander wherever they want. And two, even if you could put fox lights everywhere, fully occupying a 10,000 plus acre ranch, it's a very predictable, the turn. Right. So wolves in particular are incredibly smart. And they realize, oh, you just ignore that and you go get your dinner. Yeah. So yeah. So anything that's really a static, static and predictable. Yeah. They're like, okay, got your game. Yeah. Now it's time for dinner. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, so what did you, what did you develop? Yeah. So I started with a bunch of, what I thought were great ideas and turned out to be bad ideas, but my large community helped hide me. It's part of entrepreneurship, but a lot of small mistakes. Yeah. Um, but I mean, I have a really fantastic community of folks that that helped me, but the short story is it's a livestock worn device in the form of a collar. All right. So, and that, that whole idea is you want the deterrent to follow the livestock. I was actually thinking about the fox light thing, but just strapping on the back of some of the lead cows that put you on the innovation team. Basically, that's sort of the idea. That was kind of part of the foundation of it. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole idea is to have a collar livestock worn that has either, well, it's equipped with both a, a light, you know, it's around the perimeter of the collar. So it has that sort of a light pattern. All right. Yeah. I actually have a rave outfit that has a collar like that. And then it also has audio capability as well. So we can go audio deterrent or visual deterrent and the great thing is the collars communicate amongst themselves so you can synchronize. Oh, we're doing blue light now. And then our next threat is a sound of human voices, which for wolves in particular are pretty scary. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, the whole idea is to be minimally scary and disturbing to the livestock, maximally scary to wolves. But the idea is, it's not just wolves that are threats, right? So, so at the high level, the mountain lions is the other main threat. Mountain lions bear. Oh, sure. I mean, even our aerial threats, I mean, ravens can take calves as they're being born. Oh, yeah. Wow. Are eagles, I imagine, if a raven can do it, then they won't eagle. So, yeah. So the whole idea is to protect a variety of livestock species against a variety of predator species. It's almost like, you know, certain, like prairie dogs, for example, when there's a threat, then they have this system, right? They're like, beep, beep, beep, beep. You're equipping cows with that particular set of skills, kind of. Yeah. Hey, I'm alarmed here, beep, beep, beep. And you could have like a soundtrack, like, I think a Nicki Minaj track or something like that, might be very scary. Right. Yeah. And that's a great thing too, because there's endless novelty built into the system. So the idea is to have the ability to remotely upload different deterrents. So, for example, you could play Ozzy Osborne crazy train, right? And you can condition the predator side with, you know, when you're out doing your rounds as a rancher, you can, when you see wolves, you can play that soundtrack. Oh, right? Yeah. And teach them. It's a dependent learning, kind of. Exactly. Like, when man here is when I hear Ozzy. Right. And that's a really scary, dangerous thing. And then for your livestock, oh, and we're feeding in a really common happy, you can play that same soundtrack. Okay. So it sounds like a, like, and do you have to, is it the same as I was thinking where I just a few of the lead cows get collars because you don't need to put a collar in every cow, plus that's expensive and hard. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But they stay in clumps for the most part anyway. Yes. So what I've understood is there can be sort of lead cows. Yeah. And they sort of have their following, so to speak. And so, yeah, that's exactly the idea where maybe you collar 20% of your herd and you have a halo effect. Yeah. Because, yeah, economically, logistically, to collar every single animal, it may not be feasible. So, yeah. So my whole perspective is how can we have a maximal impact with minimal, we just want to reduce the financial barriers too. Well, that actually brings kind of speaks to my next question is it's like, there's quite a bit of value being created here and there's a lot of different stakeholders. And it's still, it's hard for those ranchers to pay for all those collars and whatever software and stuff is behind it. So, like, what's the, the model who pays for what? And how do you, I don't know, you've talked to me about that part of the puzzle, I'm sure that's a, it's a, it's a perfect question. So, there's a couple things. One, with the non-lethal deterrent category of products, the rancher typically pays zero to 50% of that deterrent. Yeah. Yeah, especially, I mean, Wyoming, Idaho, the state of caliber, I was like, sorry, we're going to subsidize your deterrent stuff because we want to keep the wolves. Right. Right. Exactly. There's been a lot of effort and energy and thought, time, money, put into the Wolf reintroduction program and there's a vested interest to see its success. So, you know, if you're putting dogs out there and fences up there now, the ranchers are still getting subsidized, it's just not very effective. Yeah. So, Colorado Parks and Wildlife, they do quite a bit in, in assessing situations, ranches, looking at carcass pits, looking at attractants, really helping guide a lot of that activity, but then also paying for the implementation of non-lethal deterrents. Yeah. So, they would be a direct customer. Yeah. And yeah. So, in terms of the price model, it's, the economics would work out to where it's a similar price point to existing devices that are out there that ranchers do pay for, like, you know, cattle locating technology and whatnot. So, I want to stay in that same price point, but you have a, this whole, you know, it's not just like a afford. So, they've got this kind of thing already. It just doesn't have the sirens and the flashes and the stuff like that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of technology and dairy, for example. I mean, that industry has really figured out how to be maximally efficient with technology. Right. I'm imagining like a collar that tracks each cow. It knows how much milk that cow gave off when it's time to send her to the hamburger factory. Right. Like, you got ear tags that are measuring temperature that blink when, you know, you have a sick animal. Right. So, there's a lot of technology that's helping quite a bit. But, but yeah. So, my, as I've gotten into this, what got me here, of course, was I just want to protect animals. Right. Right. The reduced undue suffering, protect animals, all the animals on all sides of the fence literally. But then as I was getting into it, I'm looking at rancher economics and profit and labor costs. And I'm looking at labor trends, labor cost trends going up and I'm looking at profits going down. And I'm thinking, okay, yeah, I got here because the predator to turn thing, but there's a massive opportunity to help their bottom line too. So things like fence breach alerts and a lame animal alert. And I mean, there's a whole gamut of information actionable herd insights that you can give to a rancher. Yeah. To help them do more with less. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, I'm pretty excited about packaging that, putting in the product in a product that they're potentially only spending 50% or nothing on. Right. So. Very cool. Yeah. And like, where are you at today? Like, you had some prototypes out there last summer, I remember. Yeah. And learn some things. But then it was, yeah, like I said, it was November or something last time we connected. So, I'm guessing there's change evolution, more units deployed or you. Yeah. Good question. So, so yeah, we did some on animal testing this past summer, which was a very, very early prototype. We de-risked some different areas, such as that what came up quite a bit was, okay, if you're going to put sounds and noises on my animal, are you going to create a fight flight freeze response? Right. Right. So, because you can have a bunch of scattering sheep, but now you don't even know where your sheep are, that's not helpful. Right. So, we tested some deterrence, saw a negligible testing was on sheep. The response from the livestock was negligible, but the livestock guardian dogs were alerted and very on point with that, which is the ideal response. Right. So, so that was really positive. And then, yeah, I mean, since then, so we, it was very fortunate to work with a full student team at the Colorado School of Bines, who, yeah, so they spent their fall summer with us developing a core part of our infrastructure. So, I don't know if that was since we met or not or we'll be doing. I don't think we got very deep into it. Okay. So, they've built out. So, part of what we haven't gone into this aspect of the caller, part of it is there's a communication from what's happening in the field to a rancher's app. Right. Which what you talked about, kind of fence breaches, stuff like that. Yeah. So, there's a way of from getting that data to to the rancher. Exactly. So, that what you just said is a whole engineering project. Right. Getting what's happening on the caller to it. Right. Right. I'm thinking like Motorola radios or whatever. We can't, can't dial, you know, ask Siri, Siri call rancher, tell him sheep number 23 is a frantic right now. In a bad place. Yeah. Right. Totally. So, so yeah, that communication piece is actually an important part of the functionality because if you get an alert and you're able to go to the field and reinforce the meaning behind or a noise. Yeah. Again, you're you're conditioning a very smart animal of what this means and the severity behind it. Right. Right. As you ask for in place, lecture shows up. Right. It's not a party. You need to leave. Right. Exactly. But back to your question about where where we are presently. So, they built the Colorado School of Mind interns built some of that core infrastructure. They wrapped up as of, I guess, December when their semester ended. I then was really fortunate to win a $35,000. Yeah. It was in AWS. Oh, Amazon. Amazon Web Services. Yeah. So, basically, an engineering support team to take the level fidelity of intern to professional level. Wow. So, yeah. Sorry for folks who don't know what I'm talking about. So, the AWS piece, that is the infrastructure from caller to cell phone. Yeah. Yeah. So, that piece of it. And how's the signal actually transmit? So, there's different ways. Yeah. I mean, there's if you're in a more urban environment. Right. Like on the front range, you can go cellular. There's a higher power cost. But that's the easiest. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, that's infrastructure lean or absent. Right. Then, yeah, you got to go a different way. So, it's a different radio length radio. Okay. So, it's almost like AM radio where you got this long range, kind of. Exactly. And you have to put in towers and infrastructure. Oh, really? To do that. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, how will a farmer have to put up a tower then for this to work? Yeah. Or potentially. Potentially. Or a few ranchers can get together and be like, hey, we can get a tower here. Or maybe Colorado Parks and Wildlife invests in that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So, that's for sure a piece of it. I don't know if you're familiar with these like vents or halter, these folks, these companies that are out there creating virtual fences for cows. The whole idea is to remove the physical fences to help wildlife move freely. But also, it's a it's a way to optimize grazing. Right. So, you've got these grazing heat maps. Okay. And you can re you can relocate. You can redraw your virtual map. And there's stimuli on their callers to move the animals. What? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So, so that's a whole industry. They have towers. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What is going to sound like a country boy, but like, deers jump over fences really easily and rabbits go underneath them and stuff and coyotes and stuff. It just feels like wildlife has already adapted to our fencing systems. For sure. I mean, the bigger piece of it is probably just the economics of maintaining fair broken fences. Yeah. If you actually could train your critters, oh, you've got to turn left now, you're getting too close to the neighbor's property line. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I mean, sustainable farm, I mean, ranching is about maintaining the resource, right? Resources the land. Well, I've learned a lot from like that Joel Saladin guy. He's a farmer guy, but he moves his chickens onto the recently departed cow pasture and the chickens pull the cow patties apart. So, he's always got it at the right phase of eating, but cows are dumb. Like, they'll just eat grass until the grass is gone and then the grass takes a long time to recover. And so, if you can move it toward more, the prime time. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. All right. I can see where that would be worth the big infrastructure investment. So, you can write on the co-tails of some of these folks perhaps paying on some rent, too. I reckon. Yeah. I mean, I'm currently exploring some potential partnerships because I think there's a natural overlap here, where I'm not trying to get into that space and as far as I've seen the predator-durance space is pretty lean. Right. So, I mean, that would be amazing just to team up and join forces. So, we'll see where that goes. And so, when will you have like customer revenues, which are forecast in that space? So, you have some development to go or is it a combination of grants and funding and, you know, productizable? Is it a two year before you really? Yeah. That's a good question. So, I would love to have customers today. Right. But yeah, the innovation piece of this is it's a heavy lift. Right. There's a bunch of R&D. There's the firmware, the software in the caller itself. There's the the other side of it, which is the, you know, everything from caller to your phone. That's a whole other piece of it. There's the piece of making sure you've got coverage. So, everywhere there's a cow and a caller. You can communicate with that. Right. So, there's a lot of pieces to it. So, right now, innovation is slowed down just because of the fundraising piece. So, while I'm a great engineer and have a lot of experience there, the funding piece is newer, right? Sure. So, I've got grants that are out there, but the cycle is pretty long. Yeah. It seems like like a lot of people that care about wolves and care about Colorado, like voted yes to bring the wolves in. It's not necessarily the state's job to fund your startup, but if you could find a coalition, you know, find 10,000 Coloradoans that want to donate, could you have like a, I guess they wouldn't donate, they're probably not investing. I don't know, like even a hundred bucks a piece from all the people that care would be quite a bit of money. That'd be amazing. But how do they do that? I mean, there could be crowdfunding. You could do a Kickstarter or something like that. You need something catchy, like brand-wise. Like, I don't know, I call our my sheep. Well, brainstorm after no. Because you've got to have a good prize if you're going to have like a Kickstarter thing, right? Like something that says, I'm cool. I jumped down on that front edge of this. Yeah. I mean, the great thing is that it's kind of, it's a win for everybody, right? Like it's a win for the rancher protecting. I mean, these ranchers, they can lose $10,000, $6,000 in a night, a bad night. Right. Because there's surplus killing that happens. You've got bear bear that come in that just swat and take down a whole pile of sheep at a time. Well, you know, it can do the same thing. Really? And in your situation, your product would like after they get the first one or even when they're just agitated when the bear is stocking or the wolves are chasing, that's already doing these deterrent things. Yeah. So there's a sensor suite on board the caller. So the idea is if there's a fright flight freeze response in the wearing animal, then that's when you get the deterrent. Gotcha. So it's, it's meant to be a very proximal, very surprising deterrent versus like a, oh, it's nighttime. We're flashing lights. Right. Right. Right. The critter is excited about whatever it is. So this is, it's picking up like almost like your apple watch or whatever it's got their pulse rate and stuff like that. This caller isn't just sirens and lights. Yeah. So sensing a lot. Right. Exactly. And that's why it's a natural to deliver these actionable herd insights, right? Like even gate changes. Like do you have a lame animal? Do you have just something funny happening there? Yeah. One of the interesting things about ranching, I guess, and especially mountain ranching is that you know, it's kind of some of the most marginal land in the first place. You know, the only thing it's really good for is putting a handful of cows out there or whatever. And so I guess my curiosity would be, is there enough marginal economic gain to be had to get there? To fort to justify the purchase of this. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. No, great question. So I've actually done a pretty detailed cost financial model around what are ranchers presently paying right now today for your range writers for livestock audience dogs. And not even getting into turbofladry and some of these other things that are more offset by color parks and wildlife. Sure. And our tech is right in there. In fact, depending on numbers and, you know, the scale of the economics, we have a better price point. So you should have a viable business and people are spending the same or less than they are now and actually having something that's useful. Yeah. Yeah. That's the idea. Without the the unintended side effects. Right. I want to we have a sponsor for the local experience podcast. It's called Purpose Driven Wealth. And we're doing a new segment now that really digs into the purpose of your creation. We've talked about that a little bit already. But I've got kind of a group of questions that I find useful. And I get to kind of pick based on who's in front of me, which is fun. And I want to start with this one. What's the source of your internal compass when it comes to decision-making, especially ethical decision-making? Like how did this person that thinks that like you do, how did that develop? So the source of your an animal advocate lover of all kinds and things like that. And so like how did that develop for you and how does that drive you and even guide your decisions for for garnish? Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't think that was a nurture thing. I think that was a nature thing. I think I was born just really. I mean, I'll take insects and carefully remove them with the mouse side. I mean, it gets to levels where my husband's like, do you have to relocate that mouse or can we just and like we're relocating it? Gotcha. I have a confession is that we have box elders. They like are neighboring property over there. They have tons of box elders all the time. And so we get strays. And I don't take them outside. I just throw them in the toilet when I catch them. Does it make you sad? A little bit. It's okay though. So there's so many. I'll show you their colony. So that was a nature not nurture. You were just born in love. Do you keep animals yourself? Yeah. Yeah. We have a couple pets. I mean, I don't I don't have a ranch at or anything close. Yeah. But you would like to. No, I don't want to. I don't want to get a ranch. Well, because they always end up dying and stuff too, right? It's sad enough when a dog passes or whatever. I take it so seriously. These animals. And if I had, you know, 12 chickens, we have a chicken coop on our property. If I had a dozen chickens, then I would have to care a lot. And it would just I need to go to work during the day and 10 to animals feelings all day long. Fair. I have another question for you. What's the question here is what's your thoughts on legacy at this stage in your life? I think, um, and how has that changed? Is this like the most important thing you're working on? Or do you have family that was more focused or like, talk to me about that notion of legacy? Is this your big shot? Kind of. Yeah. I mean, this feels this feels really important. And the fantastic thing about this is there's no way I can lose. And what I mean by that is I would love to look back on my deathbed and say, I created a fantastic company that did a really good thing and saved lives. It protected a reintroduction program. Reduced meat cause for consumers. Right. It protected a rancher viability and all that. But even if it doesn't, even if we don't land in a successful ultimate goal, at least I can know looking back that I really took my best shot. And that is a win. Regardless. Yeah. What's that look like for your family? And I know you said fundraising is one of your biggest challenges right now. I assume you're not drawing a big salary from Gartis innovations. There's no money for it. Right. And so you're you're married, right? Yes. So we're thankful for what's your husband's name? Jason. Thankful for Jason's income. I assume he's hopefully employed right now. He is. And you guys are managing through. Yeah. And I mean, I can't fully quit my day job either. Right. So I did for a period and thank you Jason for enabling that. But. Okay. And you said you were an engineering consultant. Does that mean you work for yourself in that space or a consulting firm? Yeah. It means I work for myself. Okay. So yeah, I started that consultancy maybe seven or eight years ago now. Okay. So it's just me. I step into a client and I either augment their existing engineering team or I am their engineering team. And basically do well-defined pieces of work for them. Okay. So you come into challenging spots a lot of times is that what people call? Because we've been working on this project product forever at Sucks. Or we're this much over budget and this much behind and we need the extra bandwidth and you're already late. So go. Right. There's a lot of that. Interesting. Interesting. So you do that as with half of your time these days or something like that still? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And the dream I guess is to have Gartis pay you at least a modest salary someday for all of the free labor you put in. Yeah. That would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And what are you looking for in terms of like investors? Yeah. I think the investor that would be attracted would be mission aligned. Mm-hmm. Right. It would be more in the patient capital sort of catalytic capital world. The slow money kind of investor. Slow patient money but to leave the world a better place. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of sort of lane. So yeah. I mean, I looking at the numbers, I am fully convinced that this business has all the potential in the world. There's a ton of profit potential eventually. There's a ton of profit potential. Right. And there's a lot of natural collaborations and it's a very exciting space to be in. But I think especially initially when the risk is higher. Right. Like I have endures every piece of the engineering. Right. Sure. That it would just it would ask to be I think it needs to be someone who really cares. Yeah. About animals or about technology or everything. I think cares about wildlife. Wolves. I think cares about ranchers and our rural. We perfect. Is that guy that has like the flying suit in the Marvel series? What's his name? I don't he can do he's got all the technology in in did all like he's super rich too. Right. Like and he's probably really good. He's probably better than your best technology people leave him. Anyway, he's not real. Well, if he is, he should come work for me. Talk to me about like actually, I think I want to go and explore or young Carolyn and even get into this space where you decided to become a consultant instead of working for firms and stuff like that because I think that's we're going to find that's informative of the person that you've become. Hi, this is Clint Jasperson, managing partner at purpose driven wealth. We believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose. Our mission is to guide clients through the complexities of wealth management, retirement planning and legacy using a values driven stewardship based approach focused on provision, contentment and enjoyment. With more than a century of expertise through thriving, we offer tailored strategies to help individuals and families achieve their goals and embrace generosity whether you're navigating a life or business transition or planning for the future. We're here to partner with you every step of the way. To learn more about purpose driven wealth, call 970-330-741. So we are about to jump in the time machine. Are you ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. Let's go back to your earliest memories. I'm finding that some people don't remember nothing before they were like 10. Some people remember expressly things when they were two or three, which I feel like I do in some cases. Where do you start remembering? The latter. Very weird thing, especially to see on a podcast. My first memory is literally being burped when I was a baby. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, my. So that's like pre-one. Oh, yeah. Like six month old or three month old or something or a week old or something. Yeah. Dang. And you're like, you have like a feeling of, oh, that was very satisfying burp. I had a feeling of, I hate this and why are we doing this again? Oh, interesting. Yeah. Oh, so it was like a recurring memory. Almost like this again. Can't wait to get through this. The worst. And where were you? Just at home. What describe the circumstances? Are you Colorado native? Oh, I'm from Nureal. Describe your circumstances, the family that you were born into. Yeah. So my mother, I thought I had four parents, which helped go into college. Tech team. Yeah. Four people. Four income streamers paying for help for that. Yeah. So mothers, the father, fathers, that mother. Okay. And those have been, you know, stable pairs since I was like two. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So was it you? So your mom was actually, like, they split up not too long after you were little, which is kind of, I don't know, normalish. Yeah. For my perspective, ideal, because I'd never had to go through that. Right. I don't even have memories of the divorce. Yeah. No, that was just burping. That was four. Right. Right. Totally. So grip and mean. Okay. That's where my mom was. So I would stay there through basically the school year. And then over the summer, summer break, I would go wherever my dad was. Okay. And he was in the military. So he was all over the place. Yeah. We lived in Germany for a while. We lived in Virginia. Oh, wow. Texas, like all over the place. Yeah. My wife and I host exchange students. And, you know, so we get them for a semester or maybe a full school year or that kind of thing. But that experience of being an exchange student or going somewhere that had to be, did you embrace that track, going to see Dad every summer? Yeah. I mean, it's like, oh, what fun new different place. Right. You know, are you throwing all your assumptions out? Because you don't know, you know, what that new place is going to be like. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was beautiful. And so far as getting exposed to different cultures and places. Sure. Set me up later for an interest in a passion and traveling and foreign languages. Yeah. Yeah. And the main location is that like rural maimed, you know, cabin or is this banger and just on the outskirts of town? Or what are we talking about here? You kind of nailed it. We, uh, so I grew up close to Bangor. Bangor. Sorry. All good. North Dakotans are giving a pass on pronouncing. That's fair. But we also had a cabin at Sugar Loaf Mountain. So you're right on both the calisthenes. Love it. So the more urban, I mean, let's be clear it's main. It's not New York City, right? Right. For sure. But we had neighbors and, uh, you know, backyards and all the things. Class with more than 10 kids and stuff like that. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. And describe yourself as a, uh, butting, say, uh, late elementary school. Very strong student. I'm guessing nothing but yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I liked, uh, I liked science. I mean, that really always called to me. Um, which you were ahead of your time, right? I was just at the beginning of girls couldn't do math to you. Yeah. I was never taught that. So I never got that memo. I just skipped on by it. Um, yeah. Okay. So good grades, science nerd already. Did you have animals? Yeah. So grew up with, um, just, you know, cat dog kind of basic traditional. Yeah. My uncle still has to the stay a cow calf operation. Okay. And my mom grew up in a dairy farm. Okay. But I personally didn't have, you know, that direct experience, but a lot of stories. Yeah. And how about siblings? Yeah. A bunch of siblings. Okay. Because of the blended family. Yeah. Yeah. Different generations and there is kind of thing. Yeah. All the things. And what's the span? Like were you in the middle of the pack? Um, on the younger end. So I have a sister who's a couple of years younger than me. And then the oldest is, uh, a generation older. Oh, well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My best friend growing up was my dad's youngest brother. Oh, wow. My, my grandmother had kids for 22 years. Whoa. Yeah. So that's that story. Yeah. Um, so, uh, and then like high school letty clarifying moments, any entrepreneur. Did you have a paper route or anything like that? Or what was that high school experience like for you? You know, my, so my mother's house, so my mother's a stockbroker. Oh, wow. Okay. She didn't get the memo that girls aren't allowed in banking either. That's right. Now we didn't get those memos. We just disordered them fabulous. Um, yeah. So my mother was a stockbroker. So financial lessons and teaching was really important. Right. For individuals like people would hire her to do their financial planning stuff. Oh, yeah. That kind of stuff. So what she started in the household was it's not just every month you get, or sorry, every week you get five bucks, not like a straight allowance. It was, okay, if you move along, if you do this, if you do that, you can make money. Yeah. So it was like, okay, I'm going to make five bucks a week. So I drew up my plan, I skewed to the plan, made the spending cash. Yes. Early project manager. I kind of stepwise. Right. Yeah. For sure. And then I get, I mean, I did spend, um, basically middle school horseback riding. Oh, so, um, my best friend at that time had, you know, horses and lived on a farm. And so I was always there. Okay. And of course, that's expensive. Right. So I would go muckstalls and clean tack and whatever I could do. Same system different pair. Right. Right. There's more bartering. Like I'll do this labor and then I get to ride. So kind of like those college students, I was talking about they got the range writer jobs. Right. Earlier, like, oh, I get to ride your horse all summer. Absolutely. Yeah. It's perfect. And, uh, I assume straight to college or did you have any, uh, transition time there? Yeah. Straight to college. Um, note, I did consider taking a gap year, but, um, we just went straight to school engineering mechanical engineering right away. You would think start somewhere else. I don't have a mechanical engineering degree. Oh, you don't. I have a biology degree. Oh, no, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So I went back later because you were going to be a veterinarian or something. I considered that. Okay. Um, I actually was on the med school track. Oh, I get you. Yeah. So I took the MCAT was about to start my interviewing process and then met a group of mechanical engineers who were enjoying their 20s. So that got my attention. Right. It seemed to have great jobs and they had money and I was like, tell me more about what you do. Right. And where is this? So this was in Texas. Okay. So that's where you went to school or so I went to school at Brandeis in Boston. Okay. Okay. But then over the summer of visiting my dad met, um, this group of engineers and that that was a pivotal moment where I thought it would be great to enjoy my 20s as a post. It just being right in the book. Being a student for the next four years still. Yeah. But like engineering firms don't hire biologists. So that's right. So so I then went back to grad school. Uh, so I went to Colorado schoolmines and got my masters in mechanical engineering. Okay. Which uh, as a biology minor. Oh, interesting. That's an interesting perspective on even where why you're here. Like your understanding of biology only enhanced your ability to understand how to engineer a product to do this. Right. Yeah. I didn't catch that on the first wave. Well, I didn't give you those pieces. Well, we'd only had like 40 minutes in our first coffee. So. All right. Right. Okay. So now you're a school of minds, which is a prestigious school. You must have been an outstanding student. Um, and let's see. That's interesting. Do they have a, I took the GMAT back in the day for MBA school placements. Is there a similar thing for like a master's school for engineering? You just got to nail the interview. You just have to be stubborn enough to get it. I get an answer yet. Yeah. To get through it. I mean, it's uh, I remember my first several conversations with my advisor and he basically said, look, you can completely recreate an undergraduate degree equivalent in engineering to then go into your grad school courses or you could just sit in on the fundamentals that you, you know, you want to or you could just dive into the deep end. Yeah. Whatever, whatever you want to do. If you think you're smart enough to figure out cock two and whatever else is probably part of it because you didn't have any of that stuff, right? Like forces and statics and none of that. Yeah. So, uh, the stuff that made me an economics major instead of an engineering major, you, you didn't even have that at your foundation. Well, yeah. So what I ended up doing, I took some basics. So I did take statics and dynamics and include mechanics and things of that nature. Um, which were easy because you're a science smart girl anyway. I wouldn't say it was easy. Um, but I would say fear is a strong motivator. And I'm really stubborn. So it was kind of hilarious because I would go to class and I literally was not qualified, fully qualified for any class I took. Yeah, to take the class. Literally, like, you didn't have the predecessor class ever for, I might have had one if I was lucky, but otherwise, like it sort of calculus as a biomed student. So my biology degree I had through Calc two. Okay. All right. That's fair. But, you know, Calc three different differential equations then when the math classes turned into they weren't sure if they were math or programming. I didn't have any of that. Right. But I remember getting to class and the professor would say, oh, you remember the whatever concept from the class you never had. And I would have this pandemic moment of like, I need to know this. So I would go home and become an authority in that topic. Get to class the next day, have a complete understanding of what that thing was and how related to what he was talking about. And my, my like, the other students were like, oh, no one remembers that. And I was like, oh, really? Interesting. So you're, you like to go deep, uh, with everything a little bit. Yeah. I, when I get locked on something. Right. It's, there's not much that's going to slow me down. Interesting. For sure. Yeah. I can be pretty stubborn. Even my parents were like, sure about this. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is, this degree is basically done. Like, it's in the bag. It's totally fine. Two-year engineering master is at the most prestigious engineering school. What's the Mississippi? They'll totally work out. It'll be fine. It's not MIT. So could I ask, what was your circumstances in life? Your, your single Carolyn or had you met? Yeah. Anybody have had that time or anything like that? Yeah. You're just like off adventuring and yeah. So at that time, so this is my early 20s, I was in Texas. They have five very competitive or five. If you're resident of Texas, like less expensive med schools. Sure. Right. So I was there. I was learning Spanish. I was inter like translating in hospitals between patients and doctors in Spanish, gearing up for med school. That was my thing. Right. When I met this group of engineers, I, at around that same time, like are you playing dozens of dragons with them or something? Like, tell me about the circumstances on this group. It was a social group. I mean, we went wakeboarding. Yeah. We're just out having a nice time. And so some of them were like, oh, we're going to go do a ski trip until you ride. And I was like, great. That sounds awesome. I grew up skiing, ski racing, through high school. Okay. Let's do that. So I got to Colorado. And I thought, yeah, this needs to happen. This place is phenomenal. Right. I mean, I'm a climber and very outdoorsy and I've been in athletics my whole life. Yeah. Yeah. And the outdoors just really calls to me. And it always has. And so I thought, well, yeah, let's do, let's go deep in the outdoors thing. Let's totally pivot on the career and go back to school. And at that time, I was looking at CU Boulder. I was looking at school minds. And I thought, I mean, I don't know. At least golden is closer to the ski resort. It's me. Yeah. That's interesting. And so circle me this is this like, like early 2000. Yeah. So I moved to Colorado in 04. I worked at different, I worked in different labs, academia and industry with my biology degree as a biotech. Right. Well, I was getting residency, getting residency, exactly MCAT, like gearing up, like, is, am I sure I want to do this? This is a big deal. It's a lot of debt if I don't like it. Right. Right. So all those things were swirling around when everything gelled of engineering go that route. Okay. And it's been fantastic. I enjoy it so much more than I ever thought I would. Don't have regrets of I'm not a doctor. Oh, not at all. Not even for two seconds. I like it. I talked to me about that early career stage. Like, what equipped you to become a consultant only not even 10 years in or about 10 years into your career probably? Yeah. So let me think through the dates. So I got my master's in 09 and then I branched off. What is that? Well, he said like seven years ago, so to 18. So you had like nine or eight years or something like that of professional career. Yeah. Was that with firm that are awesome at developing people or like how did that? I think this is the continuity of the theme of I know what I want. I'm going to go for it. Right. You shut up. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was working for a design shop where it was a med device specific company. Okay. And so and that was a napkin intersection again. Right. Oh, by the way, I just went to the local biocom meetup recently, which is all product designers in the medical space kind of thing. You might be interested in that because you're kind of a Jason biocom. Oh, yeah. And there's some pretty like many people over there. Oh, interesting. So I'll introduce you actually. Chris Buchanan was on my podcast. He's the founder of this particular network in a very successful product development company in that medical space. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Like him. Yeah. I'll send you his podcast too. You can listen first so you can snoop you out. Yeah. Yeah. Great. So you're working in this bioengineering firm. I guess you'd call it or engineering. Yeah. Med firm. Yeah. So med device specific or yeah, med device basically. And then I'm going through the ranks, right? Mechanical and then systems engineering and project management. And they were wanting to grew me to take the thing over. Oh, really? And I was like, I just want to be a mechanical engineer. They wanted you to be the heir apparent to the film or that division or at least or whatever. Well, they, I mean, ultimately just like anybody they want to understand what their exit strategy looks like. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was that interest. And I was like, can you talk about this company more? Or is it not really loud? Yeah. I'll leave it there. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so, you know, it's one thing to have aptitude in areas. But I'm like, I just, I'm not done in the mechanical design world. That's where my heart is. That won't work here. Yeah. I just, I wanted more and they had just a different need. Yeah. Yeah. Then I was the acting president of a bank for a year, 11 months. And I got like a $200 gift card to say thanks, but no bump in paid during that time, whatever. And that they hired me a new CEO because the CEO was, there was no CEO either. I was just kind of flying best I could without much knowledge. And the new CEO was like, do you want to be the four columns bank president of this, you know, small bank company? I was like, no way, man, not really. Like, I run this whole thing, you know, even though I knew it would pay twice as much, but I just didn't like most of that. I'd like to find cool businesses to invest in, you know, and at that time, I could still do that, make bets with the bank's money. And I was really good at it. That's great. And I'm not a banker now because they like may just stop doing that with the, like, the guard rails. Yeah. Well, that's a whole another subject, but like too big to fail is too big to exist. And the two big to fail banks have like doubled their market share since that financial crisis happened. So good job guys. Great regulation. Anyway, I digress. Well, your mom was a stock broker. She probably understand more about this. Right, right. So you become a consultant, I guess. Like was this always one company? They were like, we want to really, we see you as being part of the leadership team, maybe part of the exit plan as we go. And you're like, I'm like, I just wanted to design. They're like, well, this is our need isn't with mechanical design. It's over here. And I'm like, okay, I get that we're just not a match. Right. So I, I went off on my own because I, I basically wanted to do what I wanted to do. And I had you found your fellow by that time? Not yet. Not yet. So I had to wait for him. Okay. Yeah. And so you're just like, I do what I want. I do want. Yeah. Oh, there's actually, there's a gift shop in Old Town, Fort Collins that I can't remember the name of, but it's really close to the intersection of Oak Street and College. And there's a pair of socks there that you should get for you. I do this thing that's called what I want. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it was kind of crazy because at that time, I mean, I bought a, you know, almost $600,000 townhome in Boulder. Okay. The mortgage was just me, right. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to spend time working for, you know, in a role that I just isn't fit. Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to work out. It'll be fine. And I just made a leap and rented out rooms. I'm like, well, I've got to pay for this mortgage. So I do what I want. What I want is to live in this townhouse. But what I need to do as far as my mama taught me is get some more revenue. Yeah, we need to up the revenue. So, um, yeah. And it, you know, it's, it's, I think a lot of businesses, I don't think a consultancy is unique in this is built on relationships. Sure. Right. So I have really fantastic connections and relationships with the engineering community. And I mean, the consultant model is fantastic because as a CEO executive of a company, you don't want to fully, I mean, if you were to fully stock every project, perfectly, you might have to lay people off. Right. Just to afford those new people and or you're going to be paying someone to sit, you know, keep a chair warm, whatever. And so the consultant can come in and deal with those overages. So it's a really nice model that works for a lot of different companies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, when I spun off into my own world with the consultancy, I was mostly in MedDevice world because that's where I came from. Sure. But then through connections, I went into aerospace as well. Oh, well. So, yeah. So like, I've got mechanisms that I've designed solar, deployable arrays that are cool, orbiting us right now. And that's super fun. Really different. That's super cool. Yeah. I met somebody. I think that's in loveland that has some of these solar, it came from a fishing rod company or something like that. There's a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the composites world, I mean, especially the deployable arrays, it's like origami. Yeah. Right. It has to go up in space. Right. This is how your little package and then it folds out like this beautiful origami. I mean, it's really fun creative stuff. That's going to be a real game changer when we can have our like AI data centers powered by the sun with satellite thingies up in space kind of deal. To me, that feels like the we're going to have kind of maybe not a shortage of energy, but it's going to be a tight stretch here potentially. You know, I'm frankly glad we are opening up a lot more oil opportunities and stuff because we're going to need to bridge to that space where we can do that because AI is hungry. Yeah. Very hungry and hopefully not hopefully benevolent too. Right. Right. But well, I wanted to ask about that. And this is a sidebar maybe from your kind of journey, but is AI a big part of the technology that you're developing now and yes, absolutely. All the some of the software, the coding and stuff like that. You couldn't even have done it really three years ago, nearly as cost effectively. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the two key algorithms, the predator detection algorithm that initiates the deterrent is, you know, it's learning very much. You look at better and better and better as it exactly plays in the while. And then the deterrent deployment optimization algorithm as well. Right. So what does that look like? Are we launching like three blue lights in a row? Are we doing this soundtrack? Is this soundtrack effective? How do we know is effective? Right. It turns out that Ozzy Ozboard changes the rules away, but the bears come in and they love Ozzy crazy trade. Right. Totally. It's not going to work. Yeah. So AI is definitely a big part of it. Okay. For sure. And so tell me about like, is there a product or two that you're allowed to share about that you had a hand in kind of getting past that hurdle or that product line that you're especially proud of? From my consultant. Yeah. Yeah. So I can share, I mean, I'm under NDA left right in center. So I have to be careful. But I do have permission from hologic. Okay. So I did design a surgical device, cool solar generator for them. Okay. And that's not my website. But, um, yeah, that was a really funny one because my husband is in med device sales. Oh, it works for hologic. Okay. And came and oh, yeah, we just acquired this little boulder design shop and this device that does X, Y and Z. And I was like, wait a minute. Is this the cool seal generator? He's like, how did you know? I designed that. He did not design that. It's like, yeah, I did. The the fellow I told you about Kris Buchanan, um, he left his like 25 employee mostly left it to his son to run, but product development consultancy company kind of to pursue redrop RX, which is like a home delivery painless blood collection system. Interesting. Yeah. Um, which could be huge. In my opinion, it could be massive because there's so much attention paid on hormones and diets and maximizing. And if you could test your blood once a week, easy. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. And not have to go to the doctor's office and have the insurance company paid $250 for you to visit the doctor for 20 minutes while they take your blood. Right. You know, all that kind of stuff. I mean, it's kind of interesting because I feel like in the diabetic line of things, we have that figured out of testing regularly. The what sure level. Well, and that was really his innovation was, you know, maybe outside of diabetic kind of stuff, but for all the other things that could happen, it's too expensive to develop this thing, this tech. But if everybody that wants that could like just buy it from us, license it from us, then we could have a real business here. Right. So we'll see where it goes with it. But yeah, it's exciting. So. So where did you find love somewhere along the way? Yeah, because you're this headstrong. I do what I want person. And then not too long later, you develop this product that your husband's out there slinging. Right. Right. Do you meet him in the nerdy med device mixers or something like that? I have been on two blind dates in my whole life. Okay. And I guess when I say blind dates, um, on like online, you meet someone online and then you go meet up with them. Oh, okay. I don't know. That's really up what a blind date means. But, um, well, blind is usually when your friends were like, eight, you should meet Bobby and, but back in the old days, but here are a stranger. Somebody you met online and you're unvetted. Unvetted. Like question mark. Yeah. So I, I was running my consultancy and just things were clicking and moving, but at the same time, you know, professionally, but I was like, wow, I'm really not meeting people working from home, hanging out in my two cats and going climbing with my girlfriends, right? Right. So, um, so yeah, I hopped online, which I had a lot of resistance to because I just thought, uh, meet someone in the real world. Yeah. But I'm like, okay, I'm not getting any younger, right? Right. Cause you're your early 30s by this point at least. I imagine. So I bid the bullet. I'm like, ah, okay, fine. I'll just do this online thing. And he was the second person that I met. And I was like, that's, I'm done. Yeah. I do what I want. What I want is him. That's not a little bit inappropriate, but the nature of our podcast. No, I just took my net out. I'm like, yep, you're coming with me. You don't know, Heather Rubin, by chance to you. No. You should. Uh, she reminds me quite a bit of you. And she's got a, I'm trying to get her booked for a second appearance, but super fast, drying epoxy. So like, she can make epoxy that dries like a flame front virtually. And so they can line natural gas pipelines and stuff that are leaking and stuff like that. They can just put it a quick epoxy liner in them as well as lots of other solutions, but that's her. But it, I don't know if she's single or not, but she's kind of that, you know, I hike a lot of mountains. I climb a lot of things. I do a lot of things with my girlfriends and my buddy friends and stuff. And then, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe I should like meet a boy someday or something. I don't know. Right, right. Anyway, I digress. But your personalities are very strikingly similar, I would say. Interesting. Yeah, I think for me, I mean, since I really have never been on that, I got to have a family and kids. Yeah, you didn't know man to take care of you. Well, I mean, my, my programming growing up was don't depend on a man for his, his income, right? Like be self-sufficient, all that, which, um, and what did your mom's husband, your stepfather do? It's not broker as well. Okay, I caught you. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it was, right, exactly, very financially sound. Well, then I guess one question I would have is it seems like a really terrible financial decision to try to launch this company arguably. Well, it's a big home run ball if you get there though, right? Yeah. That's the thing. It's not about money for me. Yeah. Right. It's, it's a bigger prize. It's about impact. It's about ROO return on objective. Yeah. Yeah. So could it be a terrible choice financially? Sure. And would I regret doing it? No. Right. I mean, my, I have two main goals. Keep my house and keep my husband, right? I love that. So as I'm stroking checks to engineers and watching, I mean, my consultancy, I'm trying to, you know, earn the money and then I'm spending it. Right. Right. Like, I got paid. Oh, I need to invest in this. Right. It's going to be handed over over here. But it's, it's worth it. I mean, it's, it's not about, yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's not about that. We didn't talk very much about local think tank when, when we had that coffee, but years ago, June of 2015, I asked the group if I should add a second food trailer to my mobile food business because I was not at a sustainable revenue level and I needed to have more revenues if I was going to make this thing succeed. And then, you know, they ask questions like, how do you like always working when your friends have time off and always having time off when your friends are working and all this. And ultimately you said, you know, you need to park that dumb thing in the backyard and go get a job so you can keep your marriage and keep your mortgage intact. Right. And so I feel that. Like, right. Like, it's, uh, it was quite a march. Uh, how, how was it Ryan? No, Jason Jason. Yeah. How does he feel about this? Like, is he bought in or is he like, you're crazy or like, yes, both. Yes. I think so. He married you partly because you do what you want. Yeah. I've a little bit of a renegade in that way. But, um, I mean, he's been really fantastic. And I learned early on that I can't just go to him with, oh my god, this horrible thing happened today. Right. Because I mean, I think there's entrepreneurial oriented folks. Then there's more like employee oriented folks that are just kind of mentally need the stability. And I think my you shake his foundation every time. Totally. Yeah. I mean, my founder level excitement and or devastation, depending on the moment of whatever day. Um, yeah, I had to early on just silo it. Right. Right. Like, there's a massive community out there of founders who knows all the ins and outs and the ups and downs. And I'm like, I don't need to. Have you connected with one of those communities? By the way. Yeah. So, um, so the golden coffee startup community. Not familiar. Oh, interesting. So they have, I want to say it's like Wednesday, morning, once a month. Um, might be off on the day. But basically, it's a, it's a bunch of founders that come together. Cool. And there's usually a panel of very familiar with the one million cups and pitch similar stuff. But more of a more of a side spur of that kind of notion. Yeah. So it's more community focused, I suppose. Yeah. So it's, it's a pretty regular, similar to million cups. Yeah. So it's like, there's a panelist of, here's where I am in my company and here's our challenge. And, and then the audience, it's like, okay, you know, what do you need? Oh, I need a connection to this. I need. So it's a lot of resource sharing. Sure. Kind of a thing. So I dig it. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it is a lovely place. Right. That's when I started local thing tank, I used to tease. It's, it's, it's local for local community. But it's also make you crazy. If you don't talk to somebody about your small business and make your spouse crazy, if you ask them one more time. Yes. So you're sensing both of those things to be true. Yes. What, uh, what do you hope for in like the, say the three year, I know it's kind of a process here. You got to raise some money. You probably go through a phase one phase two of the product itself and, and whatever else licensing stuff. I don't know what that looks like from a monetization. Will you lease these colors? Even maybe it comes with the software kind of deal or something. It could be. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, in a, in a world where the end user, the ranger, doesn't have to pay for them. Right. It may just logistically financially be easier to just sell them. But I mean, I'm, I'm open to, yeah, depends kind of, yeah, to that part as well. Yeah. So the three to five year, I mean, it's getting, getting past this, the fundraising hurdle, right? Sure. So which, which, you know, I've got some grants out there. It's not insubstantial. Right. It's the thing. So I'm trying to be patient. I'm trying to be strategic with time and effort into potential high yields. Right. Similar to the state of Colorado was the one you should really be like, Hey, you got a real big problem here. I know you got a lot of money, even outside of what we paid you as governor. I've been, I've been knocking on that door quite a bit. No answer so far. Yeah. He gets pulled in a lot of, a lot of ways. But um, yeah. So it's to me, that's the most logical big founder, funder, the state kind of, yeah, they kind of created the problem. They probably need to be a flagship on fixing it. I don't disagree with you. Um, I mean, given the overspend, I mean, the actual spend has far exceeded anticipated. So well, yes, and all the customers that have hired you as an engineering consultant are already over budget and behind, right? So sell through that. I mean, a little bit like if they realize that the only, it might be that one of the only and best ways that they can keep this program in Colorado is to, to invest in your solution. Yeah. I don't know. Otherwise, it's going to die. Right. Like it won't be too long. If we spend $5 million, $10 million a year on keeping the wolves here, people will be like, Yeah. Yeah. For 20 wolves or 40, you know, it's not going to, I'm going to fly. I mean, and for the Colorado taxpayer, the little known fact for a lot of people is that if you are a Colorado taxpayer, you are spending money on this because when there's a lost cow to a wolf, yeah, we're paying to reimburse that rancher, right? Right. That's 20 cents out of my tax bill, right? Yeah. So it's, um, you know, there are five million people, you know, yeah, that's up. It does add up. So I don't want to disagree with you. And I would love to get a meeting with Polis. Okay. That's far but unsuspect. If anybody out there knows, uh, our governor and can send him this podcast conversation, it might be very enlightening. So I don't, I've met the governor, but he doesn't take my calls. That's very, although I, yeah, I don't know what I'd talk about. Why are my registration fees so stupid? Hi. And why do I catalytic convertors for my old Subaru? You have to cause $1,400. Right. Um, anyway, that's a couple of things I'd ask him. But yeah. Are you ready for the local experience? Sure. Well, we're going to start it with a taste experience. This is, um, the new crazy ginger hot sauce from the local experience podcast. And these are chips. And so we're going to start with, we, we change your, your perspective. A little bit here. I'll let you, uh, do you want to dab? You can swing that microphone right out if you want to. So it doesn't feel, yeah, you're exactly. Okay. And, uh, yeah, just give it a drop or two on whatever, or either you go just, yeah, there you go. I like it. Go bold. And then I'll try one, two, just cause it turns me into a sweaty. So this is peaches, red bell pepper, and then habanero is number three on the list of ingredients. Yeah, fantastic. And then a lot of ginger, a lot of garlic. Yeah, it's, uh, some heat. That's really good. It's like, yeah, yeah, you have some more if you want it. Yeah. I mean, to dribble it. Sure. I love it. I love it when people love it or like it a lot, at least. Yeah. I took this to a chapter meeting when we went to lunch afterwards and it lost like an inch from like five people having lunch. Wow. Whatever was a maniac. Um, but I'm, I'm really proud of it. So you can get this at Matador, Mexican Grill. Soon. Yeah, there's a prototype. The label hasn't been approved by whatever the, like the state of Colorado food manufacturers association or I don't know who else what, but I'm glad you like it. You say, yeah, it's great. Unusual too, I think. Yeah, it's got, it's, it feels a little sweet and a little heat. Yeah. It's a nice combination. Sweet heat. Everywhere like sweet heat. Yeah. That's what you're bringing to this conversation today. This episode is sponsored by Loco Think Tank. Loco Think Tank provides spirit collaboration for business owners. We build smart, safe places to help business leaders navigate every stage of the business journey and we love what we do and who we do it with. Our model features gift-back minded business veterans and the role of Loco facilitators. We're always looking for abundance minded individuals to add to our membership facilitator team, local community or to feature on this podcast listeners of this podcast who go on to become members of Loco Think Tank get their sixth month of membership for free. Just mention the local experience podcast on your application. To learn more, visit our website at locothink Tank.com. That's l-o-c-o-think Tank.com. So Carolyn, the craziest experience that you've ever had that, so that's where we do the little word play Loco, like Loco crazy. Your Spanish students, where did the Spanish come from? That's not a big thing in Maine, I wouldn't think. No, that was travel. Well, travel. I also, as I was thinking, I was going to be a doctor, I asked another doctor, what is your biggest regret in your profession? What would you have done differently? And she said I would have learned Spanish because I have so many patients and families to have that barrier. And I was like, okay, I'll just learn Spanish. I'll do that. I said I want to, so I'll live. Yeah, so that was a bunch of, I mean, I spent a summer in Costa Rica. That was when I turned from 19 to 20. Nice. And then after West Coast, East Coast. It was in the jungle. Yeah. I think it was in the jungle. Travel to Spain and yeah. I think it. Yeah. So what is the craziest experience that you're willing to share? Okay. And if you have two stories that need to come out, that's fine. I can allow it. I can tell you which one is more crazy. Okay. Okay, so I'm going to have to have my mom turn this off. Just don't listen. Just turn it off. It's done. We're having a race. Yeah, signing off. What's your mom's name? Betsy. Hi, Betsy. See you later on your daughter's wishes. For everyone else. So, so I'm a climber, right? And dabbled in ice climbing, but mostly rock climber, traditional climber. So I was at traditional being like where you don't have any hooks or anything, but you stick little nuts and things and like, I hope this holds if I fall. Yeah, I've done a little bit of that when I lived in the springs. Yeah. When I was about 20 pounds later. Yeah. So it's not fixed gear. You're bringing it. You're placing it. You're the person that's following you is taking it out. I played follow. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's a great role. Say for much. So I was in the Western Sierra climbing with a buddy. I mean, you have to hike like a day back in there and you're camping. Oh, so you're serious? Yeah, I mean, I've done some fun stuff. So like you're like, I remember I was like a 15-7. Oh, nice. Right? Is that right? 5-7. 5-7. 5-7. So I was kind of mid-grade, but I was instinctively pretty good at it. Better than like, I'm not super athletic and I'm not that smart and not that strong, but I was a good climber for whatever reason. Nice. When I was doing it more. Yeah. And so, but what is 15-12 or 15-5? Or 5-15 or is like the max like only Superman can do that? Yeah, 5-15. Yeah, 5-15. Some normal people can do it. Yeah, exactly. So 5-15 is like world-class and 5-12 is impressive. Yeah. So, you know, we're back there in, I mean, it was a high snow year, really high snow year. Okay. And it's multi-pitch, right? So you go up a rope length and then you go up another rope length and you keep going up for a while. And that's that's not the, I've done a lot of that. That's not the crazy part. But going up, so ascending this route. And I'm with a, an old, this is a friend, older, serious climber. He's done tons of stuff. And I at that time, just kind of took his word for it a lot of the stuff, right? Then you were ready, kind of. I mean, that we were prepared. Okay. As I'm watching other people take up crampons and ice axes and we had none of that. Oh, I was like, it'll hopefully work out and be fine. That'll, because it's about the descent, right? Right. So you get to the top of this 10-pitch route. So whatever, it's like a thousand vertical feet wall. The way down is this varies. You climb that all in like you get to rest here and there. Oh, yeah, you rest at your belay ledges. Yeah. Yeah. So you climb and then you rest in belay. And then you, you know, like camping on the side of the mountain, not like if somebody comes to style. No, no. It's still like that's a long, a thousand feet is a lot. I've done some like 150 foot walls and stuff. And that's a lot. Yeah. If you're tired, but yeah, totally, but you're about slimmer than I am. So I get, I mean, that's what I call a good time. I don't know. I love it. Okay. We're in the local world. So hey, you know, so you're climbing this thousand foot wall with no gear to get down from this place. We had a pair of microspikes between us, which he thought was a good idea and I did not think about it or challenge that. So we get to the top and we're looking at this gully that was, I mean, it felt like it was five miles long. I mean, it was, it was probably like a... That's your way down. Yeah. It's a, it was a very, it's not like there are steps. Right. Like you wanted crampons, you wanted ice axes, you wanted the full gear and down climbing is more difficult and it's more dangerous. So much more. So I had my approach shoes, which have a slippery sole. Right. On a slippery surface, it was an absolute no fall zone. And I mean, any slip would turn into death or worse, period. And so we're descending for, I mean, it was 600, 800 feet. And so I took, you know, rocks in my hands and those are your ice axes or my ice axes and my one. And he's got the crampons. Well, he had the one microspike and I had the other... Okay. So you had a good left foot or whatever it is. Sort of, it wasn't very good. Anyway, it was the most terrified I've ever been. Oh, dang. And I got to the bottom and then I just started sobbing. Because it's like you can't express that emotion in a moment when it could threaten your survival. So... Well, and I have to think that your adrenaline was like at peak for like whatever, how long did that climb down take? I mean, it... Two hours or something? It probably took 45 minutes or something like that. But still, like you're peaked out. Yeah, laser focus. Like don't die juice. Yeah, it was messed up and I had some words with him about it. And this is a buddy, not a boyfriend at the time. This is a buddy. Yeah, he's like, he's unfortunately passed since not climbing, but he was like 20 years older. Did he own it? Like he was like, you're right. I think he was just surprised. Because, because I was like, was that comfortable for you? This is how it started. I was like, so that down climb, I just want to talk about that. Like, was that comfortable for you? He's like, yeah, it was fine. I was like, okay. What you should know about me is I was not comfortable with that. That was just not okay. Right. And then you could see, I mean, I was like, I was pretty upset. Yeah. So... It's actually my former brother-in-law who I learned to climb, tried climb with. I had done a little bit and then we moved down there. And Josh is his name. And I called him cautious, cautious. I taught him how to ride motorcycle. And he was always a lot more cautious. He did everything right. You know, he had the right number of nuts and bolts and this and that. If Josh put it in there, then Kurt can trust it for sure. You know. Yeah. And that's, I assume this guy was your lead too. So... Well, we flip leads. Oh, take turns. But still, you were trusting in him to be the lead in that knowledge space at least. Yeah. I mean, I trusted his judgment. And I just didn't, I mean, we'd been climbing together for years. Did you climb together more after that? We did, but there were very strong boundaries. Right. I was never in a situation like that again, because I think, well, I was 100% traumatized from the experience that I think he was traumatized that I was traumatized. Yeah. Yeah. So... I'm sure you felt bad, right? Oh, you feel terrible. I feel like, yeah, he thought you were a super woman and wouldn't be freaked out by that. I was very jealous. But you're sharing one little micro-crap on, basically. Right. Very bad idea. Everyone else who had the full gear they knew other day. Right. If people want to learn more about Guard Us, would you send them to a particular, do you go to an active Instagram? Probably not yet. Not Instagram? They could. Your website? Yeah, the website. So it's Guard Us as in Guard, like, protectguardusinnovations.com. And there's forms on there, you can reach out. New's letter or anything like that? Yeah. Stay in touch with what you're doing, right? Yeah. Even if we don't have a ton of money, but we're curious because this is such an innovative solution that I... My special talent is part of why local thing takes this, which is I have a special talent of identifying special talent. And you've got it. Like, you've got the product. You've got the market. It's going to take a lot of... What did I call it? Perseverance? Yes. Yeah. It probably will be annoying, you know, at times how much you have a persevere through, but... And here for it. You've got a beneficial solution here. So I hope, you have many more successes to count before your next appearance in the local experience. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Yeah. I'm glad to have the time. Likewise. Bye for now. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Logo Experience Podcast, proudly produced and sponsored by Logo Think Tank, Colorado's premier peer advisory organization. This is your producer, Ava Menus. To find all of our episodes or nominate a future guest, check out our website at thelogoexperience.com. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, X.com, and LinkedIn at the Logo Experience. To support the show, be sure to follow, subscribe, and share. Until next time, stay Logo.