EXPERIENCE 225 | Travis Luther - Entrepreneur, Sociologist, Writer, Speaker, Past President of Entrepreneur’s Organization Colorado Chapter, and Opiate Addiction Survivor

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In this episode of The Loco Experience, I welcome Travis Luther, a sociologist, researcher, writer, speaker, entrepreneur, and founder of Time to Live LLC.

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Travis shares his journey from a tumultuous childhood with young parents to pursuit of a music career and eventually finding his stride as an entrepreneur.

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He recounts his entrepreneurial ventures, including starting a successful valet advertising company and a legal tech company, as well as the Queen and pillow company, which he grew to a million dollar business in just 18 months and exited in 2021.

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Travis Credits Pure advisory for much of his learning as an entrepreneur, and he is a longtime member of and past president of for Entrepreneurs Organization, Colorado Chapter.

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This conversation delves deep into Travis's personal battles, including a struggle with opioid addiction and how he eventually overcame it through determination and support from his family and community.

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Travis also explores how his experiences led him back to academia, transformed his understanding of success to focus more on personal fulfillment and relationships.

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And the role psychedelics played in his healing journey, you won't want to miss his loco experience at the end involving a week long relationship with a valet Ferrari.

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So please tune in and enjoy my conversation with Travis Luther.

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Let's have some fun.

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Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast.

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On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond.

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Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy.

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And through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained.

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These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits.

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So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest.

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience.

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My guest today is Travis Luther.

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And Travis is a sociologist, a researcher, a writer, a speaker, uh, a multi-time, uh, entrepreneur.

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And, um, the founder of Time to Live LLC.

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Yeah.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, thanks for being here.

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Thanks for coming up from Denver Town.

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Yeah, of course.

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Um, how was the drive?

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Easy peasy.

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Easy peasy.

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Yeah.

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It'll probably be a little harder going home.

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Yeah, hitting rush hour.

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I don't know which direction that goes, but I suspect it won't be a smooth sailing.

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Yeah, probably not.

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Although I think there's probably fewer people going back to Denver from Fort Collins at five than there is going.

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You know, back home to Fort Collins.

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True.

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I, I would suspect, I don't know.

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Very true.

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I haven't really tried it either way.

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Very true.

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Although two 70, uh, is unforgiving of anyone in any direction, same time, virtual, once I get back down there, I mean, I will be screwed at some there.

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Some point.

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There will be a rough patch.

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Exactly.

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There's always a rough patch.

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Well, um, yeah.

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Thanks for making, making your way up.

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And I, you mentioned the word when we were just, uh, chatting, just now retired.

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Yes.

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Uh, and, uh, I wondered, um, and you know, and this is like a, a next chapter of life Yeah.

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In this researching and, and sociologist titling.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Talk to me about that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you know, retired, I say kind of tongue in cheek, but I've had the good fortune of being able to have the last couple years off.

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Um, you know, mostly because I've been in non-compete since I sold my company.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, in addition to all those things you talked about, I, I am at my heart and core an entrepreneur.

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Yeah.

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Um, I owned a number of businesses and then over the last three or four years, um, I sold those businesses.

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And was able to kind of return to another path I had been on in my life, which is, uh, academia and, and research and sociology.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, um, yeah.

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So early in my entrepreneurial career, I, I, I, I, I had a previous career as a, as a musician, like touring all over the country, making records and stuff.

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Okay.

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And so I kind of came back to college later, you know, after, after that.

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Okay.

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Career wound down.

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I see.

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That's why we will explain some of that, the time gaps in your Yeah.

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In your LinkedIn profile.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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So they don't have a.

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Uh, occupation for rockstar, but that, can we go there?

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What, what kind of rockstar were you and were you a proper rockstar or just a, I mean, I, I often describe it as like aaa, right?

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If you know baseball.

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Right.

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Okay, sure.

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You know, like we, we, we, we toured, we had vehicles.

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You made more, we had$50,000 a year, but not much.

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We, yeah, we than that.

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Yeah.

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Maybe more closer to the 30,000.

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This was a while back.

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I guess this was, yeah, early two.

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In today's dollars it would be 50 maybe.

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Maybe.

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Yeah.

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Theoretically.

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But yeah, early two thousands.

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Um, uh, went down to LA which is actually where I was born and where most of my family is.

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Okay.

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Tried, tried to make it down there.

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Had some fun times.

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And what was the band, one band or was it you a solo?

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Was it was, it was me at that point trying to put a band together.

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Okay.

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Did not have a lot of success.

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So I had some fun times.

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I, I gotta, I gotta hang out with Tom Morello, I gotta play with him and Adam Jones from Tool.

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I gotta actually jam with those guys.

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Yeah.

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Which was like a lot of fun and very encouraging.

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But yeah, I never really got anything done, so I went back to Seattle.

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Okay.

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Um, I grew up in Washington State.

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My parents were divorced, so my mom left California, went to Washington.

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Gotcha.

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But went back to Seattle and then started having all the success I thought I might have in Los Angeles.

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Oh, interesting.

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Now remind me, so this was like after the proper grunge band days?

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Yeah.

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Definitely stuff, right?

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Like this is another wave.

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Yeah, this was another wave.

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This was kind of now the, the post grunge, um, you know, we're kind of getting into that pop punk vans, warp tour emo kind of Okay.

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Kind of genre.

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And so I, we, we definitely fell right into that kind of warp tour, um, sound for sure.

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All right.

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So.

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Yeah.

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Um, so you spun that thing for five years or something?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You know, I, I, okay.

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Maybe college.

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I found a way to hack out a living doing that I did, you know, one of my earlier businesses was a, actually a, a, a music promotion company.

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I had a record label that I put my, my band and my other.

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Friends bands on.

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Oh, okay.

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But then what we would do is we would make these compilation disks.

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So we'd go around to independent record companies or independent artists and say, Hey, we've made deals with all these record stores.

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They're going to allow us to put free CD samplers in every bag of every customer.

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They're gonna allow us to put you in their listening stations so that customers can hear your records.

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Mm-hmm.

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Where they might not otherwise be able to, and you're gonna pay us a fee for that spot on, on this CD compilation.

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Right.

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So we did that for a couple years.

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Okay.

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Um, uh, and that helped support the, the music as well.

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Little, you've got a little cash flow positive there for, and of course, a lot of hours of work.

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Right.

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O uh, but you're going to those record stores anyway.

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Right, right.

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Yeah.

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And I worked at one of'em.

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So that's kind of, that was, that was kind of how I, I, I, I got the idea and got the end.

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Yeah.

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And then of course I put my band and my friend's band as, and this is up in Seattle now?

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This is in Seattle, yeah.

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Yeah.

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As the, as the first three, you know, three or four tracks on each sampler.

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So we got a little special Yeah, yeah.

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Uh, uh, treatment and, um, exposure.

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But yeah, I, you know, I was coming off.

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You know, four or five years of, of that, um, you know, we opened for some great bands.

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We had some great tours.

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We just never quite got there ourselves.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so I was thinking about, all right, what am I gonna do next?

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Um, um, good friend of mine had moved to Denver, um, said.

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Why don't you just come out here, see what you want to do, you know, just take a break.

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Yeah.

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You know, and Yeah, change the scenery can sometimes blank page basically.

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Exactly.

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You don't have any strings to speak of.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And so, um, yeah, there was a music industry, what did they call it?

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The music industry and business studies major at University of Colorado, Denver.

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Okay.

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And so I said, okay, well that might be a good segue to, to law school.

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I thought maybe I'll become an entertainment lawyer and I'll, I'll work on the legal side of music.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I joined that program.

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Uh, actually you could job for Diddy or something.

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Yeah.

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Maybe not if I, if I just could have been lucky enough to work for Diddy.

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Right.

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Um, but actually the fray, uh, all the guys from the Fray were, um, were in my class and uh Oh, cool.

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It was right.

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I mean, it was Right.

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You know, they had recorded a couple songs.

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Oh, wow.

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They were, you know, so you kind of watched them blow up.

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Oh, totally.

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And, and I remember lecturing them, or I remember lecturing one of them, um, because I was saying, oh, I've tried this, you know, I've done this for five years.

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Yeah.

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No band just records a song, does a showcase and gets a record deal, but like Sure.

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As shit, that's exactly what happened to them.

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So I, I remember kind of wording them, well, this might be a longer process than you think.

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'cause they're like, oh, well we're going out to do this show, this showcase for a record label.

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And I, in the back of my mind was like, well, you know, I love your enthusiasm, but good luck.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But I mean, they did it.

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They did it.

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So one of the coolest concerts I've been to was a, uh, new Year's Eve show with the Lumineers.

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Mm.

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Yeah.

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And it was the, the.

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Guess whatever December, immediately after they won the Grammy mm-hmm.

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In November.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or whatever the Grammys are.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, and it was just so authentic.

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They were like, when our manager told us he booked us for the Fox Theater, we're like, oh shit, how the hell are we ever gonna fill the Fox Theater?

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Yeah.

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And, and we were part of a second night, even the day at it.

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Oh, wow.

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They're like, now we filled it twice.

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Wow.

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You know, it's been quite a role.

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Yeah.

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That's, uh, but same kind of thing, just meteoric.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Nowhere to ever, everywhere.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, and, and, and, you know, they're great stories, but they are super unusual.

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Totally.

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You know, I mean, I, I spent so many years, well, they might have had 10 years Yeah.

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Before True, true.

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That I'd ever heard of.

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True, true, true.

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I don't know.

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But I spent a lot of years on the road seeing just the most incredible bands and musicians that nobody would ever hear.

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They're all in double a aa.

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Yeah.

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And, and, and, you know, it's, it's.

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There's a lot of luck that comes with that.

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That's not to take credit from anyone, but you know, there's luck, there's timing, there's just, uh, there's just so much, much more and powerful people that become the pickers sometimes.

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Exactly.

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You know?

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Exactly.

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It depends on how your personality jives.

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Yeah.

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And your pliability sometimes perhaps.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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So, so you go into this, uh, potential law track, uh, understanding the music industry.

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Yeah, that's what I thought I was going to, was gonna do.

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Um, um, and then, um, my kind of entrepreneurial.

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Inside started coming back outside, you know, and, and, um, it, it just did not feel like a good fit.

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Um, and I, you know, I was working at night as a valet down in Cherry Creek, um, while I was, while I was in that program, pretty gig.

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It was a pretty good, good drive.

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Really cool cars.

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Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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Super cool cars.

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In fact, I'll tell a story at the end of the podcast for, for one of those questions that you asked about.

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Crazy, uh, for sure.

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The local experience.

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Crazy stories.

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Yeah.

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Um, uh, but anyway, um, I was, you know, passing out these valet tickets to all these rich people in Mercedes and Ferraris and Porsches and stuff, and I got this idea like, I wonder if I could sell advertising on the blank side of these valet tickets.

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And so I asked the guy who owned the valet company, if he would mind me going out and trying to do that.

00:10:38.070 --> 00:10:40.799
And he said, sure, you can go try and do it, but no one's gonna buy it.

00:10:41.129 --> 00:10:42.629
Um, and it's gonna be too expensive.

00:10:42.629 --> 00:10:46.320
And I said, okay, well, if you don't care and you think I'm not gonna be successful, right?

00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.889
Would you mind if I went to the other valet companies too to see if I could roll everybody up into this idea and give them all free valet tickets?

00:10:53.309 --> 00:10:54.659
Um, he said, go do whatever you want.

00:10:54.659 --> 00:11:02.669
So I went to the other valet companies, I got'em all on board, and within two weeks I had a deal with Mercedes-Benz to put a lease offer on the backside.

00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:03.360
Heck yeah.

00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:05.700
And, and so that moment, oh dang.

00:11:05.700 --> 00:11:08.490
Because you, you didn't just try to sell one to Mercedes.

00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:10.139
You, well, you put a coalition together.

00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:10.289
Oh, yeah.

00:11:10.289 --> 00:11:13.169
Where Mercedes is like, oh shoot, we're gonna get in front of a lot of eyeballs.

00:11:13.169 --> 00:11:13.500
Oh yeah.

00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:18.750
I was like, look, I can, I can put these in the hands of five to 10,000 rich people a month.

00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:23.009
You know, like literally put your ad right in the hands of people who valet park.

00:11:23.009 --> 00:11:23.700
Right, right.

00:11:24.149 --> 00:11:28.625
Um, it solved a good problem for trying to reach, you know, uh, educated, affluent demographic.

00:11:28.629 --> 00:11:28.919
Right.

00:11:28.950 --> 00:11:31.679
Well, especially the people that are trying not to be reached.

00:11:31.965 --> 00:11:32.924
Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:11:33.220 --> 00:11:33.764
Right, right.

00:11:33.764 --> 00:11:34.335
Exactly.

00:11:34.335 --> 00:11:34.514
Yeah.

00:11:34.514 --> 00:11:34.965
That's cool.

00:11:35.024 --> 00:11:36.945
And then you're leaving an ad on their keys.

00:11:36.945 --> 00:11:38.534
You're leaving an ad on their dashboard.

00:11:38.804 --> 00:11:38.894
Sure.

00:11:38.894 --> 00:11:43.815
'cause you valet so you're, you're leaving these deals all over, you're littering their car with, with these deals.

00:11:44.355 --> 00:11:56.355
Um, and so that really took off for me and that kind of gave me a little pause in that moment of, man law school is something I think I want to do because I don't really have another good idea about what I should do.

00:11:57.884 --> 00:12:03.225
And entrepreneurship and creativity and creating these cool ideas is something I really love.

00:12:03.315 --> 00:12:03.705
Yeah.

00:12:03.705 --> 00:12:12.764
And so that company, like I said, within a few months, like I had the nuggets, the avalanche, dang Maserati, you know, I had tons and tons of clients.

00:12:12.794 --> 00:12:13.184
Oh, interesting.

00:12:13.215 --> 00:12:17.205
Um, I had a backlog, you know, luxury apartment builders and condo builders.

00:12:17.205 --> 00:12:17.595
I mean, dang.

00:12:17.894 --> 00:12:18.524
And so.

00:12:18.855 --> 00:12:21.105
Start charging more and more I imagine as well.

00:12:21.110 --> 00:12:21.975
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:12:21.975 --> 00:12:27.019
Did you like do like a variety of them then, or you promised so many handouts or, yeah, exactly.

00:12:27.019 --> 00:12:28.725
Were they tiny tickets or No?

00:12:28.725 --> 00:12:29.504
No, they were big.

00:12:29.504 --> 00:12:29.985
They're big.

00:12:29.985 --> 00:12:31.605
They were like seven or eight inches long.

00:12:31.605 --> 00:12:32.654
I mean, they were, they were really big.

00:12:32.654 --> 00:12:33.705
So like a fire virtually.

00:12:33.735 --> 00:12:33.825
Mm-hmm.

00:12:34.065 --> 00:12:34.274
Properly.

00:12:34.274 --> 00:12:35.024
Yeah, exactly.

00:12:35.355 --> 00:12:38.684
And because the valet ticket has to be split into a number of parts too, right?

00:12:38.684 --> 00:12:38.865
Oh, sure.

00:12:38.865 --> 00:12:43.815
So one goes on the keys, one goes on the dashboard, one goes to the customer, and then you tear the part of the.

00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.019
From the customer ticket when they return the car.

00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.990
So there's lots of places to, like I said, litter, the, yeah.

00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.529
How much were those, uh, were those actual valet tickets?

00:12:52.529 --> 00:12:52.860
Do you remember?

00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:53.759
What, what did they cost me?

00:12:53.764 --> 00:12:54.240
Per, per item?

00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.539
Yeah.

00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:55.710
A buck a piece.

00:12:55.710 --> 00:12:58.769
I charged$20,000 Okay.

00:12:58.769 --> 00:13:00.419
For a package.

00:13:00.870 --> 00:13:06.000
And I, I don't remember exactly how many tickets in there, but it cost me about$3,000 to print.

00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:06.450
Okay.

00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:11.580
So I, I was doing well, well, just on the tickets and that doesn't count all the sponsorships and stuff.

00:13:11.820 --> 00:13:17.549
And then, and then I got like, trade, so like the nuggets in the Avalanche gave me court side tickets.

00:13:17.610 --> 00:13:19.470
I, you know, tickets on the glass?

00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:19.529
Yeah.

00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:20.070
You're rolling.

00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.370
Oh, I was, and here I fringe benefit and I'm in undergrad, right.

00:13:23.370 --> 00:13:25.019
And I'm like, I don't really know anybody.

00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:30.210
So I'm asking these, these other, you know, 19, 20 year olds if they wanna go to a Nuggets game with me.

00:13:30.210 --> 00:13:34.289
And then I, you know, the four of us sit courtside and they're like, who the hell is this guy?

00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:34.379
Right.

00:13:35.259 --> 00:13:37.269
So you roll in all bacon and stuff, sides.

00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:49.269
And then I, and then I got a Mercedes, you know, so, um, so yeah, you know, it was, it was, uh, it was a, it was a wild time, a fun time, but it, it reignited in me this, this like, Hey man, you're an entrepreneur.

00:13:49.299 --> 00:13:49.419
Yeah.

00:13:49.419 --> 00:14:00.549
Like, and doing your own thing and coming up with your own businesses and your own companies is, is what your passion and you consider this researcher, writer, speaker, a, another entrepreneurial venture, is it?

00:14:00.549 --> 00:14:01.269
Yeah, for sure.

00:14:01.269 --> 00:14:01.629
For sure.

00:14:01.629 --> 00:14:02.590
I mean, it is certainly right.

00:14:02.590 --> 00:14:02.950
Yeah.

00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:07.830
Not just anybody can hire you and pay you a proper amount to come and talk to them and stuff.

00:14:07.830 --> 00:14:08.159
Yeah.

00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:14.340
So I mean, that's kind of the segue is like, so I left, I left that program, um, I entered another program.

00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:18.990
I, I transferred over to MSU Denver for basically for, for a reason of residency.

00:14:18.990 --> 00:14:23.789
I couldn't get my residency with cu so, um, MSU was gonna, was like, I don't care.

00:14:23.789 --> 00:14:23.940
Yeah.

00:14:23.970 --> 00:14:24.210
Right.

00:14:24.254 --> 00:14:34.470
And I just wanted to finish Right at that point, I just wanted to finish my degree, but what happened was I took a sociology class as one of the, one of my last, in the last year, A capstone course almost.

00:14:34.544 --> 00:14:34.835
Yeah.

00:14:34.835 --> 00:14:34.836
Yeah.

00:14:34.841 --> 00:14:36.539
And, and just fell in love with it.

00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:36.720
Huh.

00:14:36.929 --> 00:14:44.850
I mean, really did, you know, it explained a lot of things to me about how the structure of society really dictates the direction a lot of our lives go.

00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:45.179
Yeah.

00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:49.230
As someone who had struggled a lot, you know, my teen parents.

00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:49.679
Right.

00:14:49.679 --> 00:15:02.070
Well, that's so crazy that you struggled a lot and then you just kind of intuited this like, potential value proposition out of that, that valet ticket industry and turning a, you know, a cost into a, a value even.

00:15:02.070 --> 00:15:02.159
Yeah.

00:15:02.629 --> 00:15:02.899
Yeah.

00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:03.289
Yeah.

00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.179
Well I had had other businesses before that.

00:15:05.179 --> 00:15:06.409
I had a couple coffee shops.

00:15:06.409 --> 00:15:06.412
Oh, fair.

00:15:06.417 --> 00:15:07.909
I had a skateboard and snowboard shop.

00:15:07.909 --> 00:15:08.899
I had the record label.

00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:09.649
That's a little different.

00:15:09.649 --> 00:15:10.850
Well, it was, it was different.

00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:14.750
And those, and those all failed spectacularly because they weren't entrepreneurial enough, you know?

00:15:14.750 --> 00:15:16.250
Well, they didn't solve a problem.

00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:16.700
Yeah.

00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:18.980
And so that, that's what I, the world doesn't need more coffee.

00:15:19.009 --> 00:15:20.120
Right, exactly.

00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:20.750
Exactly.

00:15:20.750 --> 00:15:23.450
So I thought, oh, well I like hanging out at coffee shops.

00:15:23.450 --> 00:15:26.059
I should open a coffee shop, thus it will be successful.

00:15:26.059 --> 00:15:26.809
'cause I like it.

00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:35.929
And that was a big lesson I learned in the transition from those companies from back home to what I did at Valet Ads was, it's not always about what you love.

00:15:35.929 --> 00:15:36.110
Right.

00:15:36.110 --> 00:15:38.480
I loved skateboarding and I owned a skateboard shop.

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:39.350
Well that didn't work.

00:15:39.350 --> 00:15:40.820
I loved going to coffee shops.

00:15:40.820 --> 00:15:42.110
So I own a couple coffee shops.

00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:42.769
That didn't work.

00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:49.970
But you know, then I have this idea like, oh, I can solve this problem by putting ads in the hands of rich people by, from luxury companies.

00:15:49.970 --> 00:15:50.179
Right.

00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:50.240
Yeah.

00:15:50.269 --> 00:15:53.115
Well that solved a real problem and that's why it was so successful so fast.

00:15:53.115 --> 00:15:54.230
So you with coffee shops as much as you want.

00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:54.394
That's right.

00:15:55.024 --> 00:15:56.514
Without having down Mercedes.

00:15:56.769 --> 00:15:58.000
And Mercedes.

00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:58.330
That's right.

00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:13.779
Um, yeah, so that was like the, that was the big aha moment for me was that, you know, I was also successful'cause I had learned a lot about business that I probably couldn't articulate in those previous years, but I did come to understand why my businesses had failed.

00:16:13.809 --> 00:16:13.990
Yeah.

00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.220
And I applied those lessons to Valley ads and then everything that came after that.

00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:21.789
And so, back to, you know, back, go back to sociology.

00:16:21.789 --> 00:16:21.850
Yeah.

00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:22.870
Back to sociology.

00:16:22.870 --> 00:16:27.429
So, you know, in school, um, while I owned valet ads, I took these sociology courses.

00:16:27.429 --> 00:16:28.570
Totally fell in love with it.

00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:35.740
I was interested in marketing personally and I thought sociology is a much better fit for me and marketing than anything else I was doing.

00:16:35.769 --> 00:16:38.230
'cause it explains people, explains structure.

00:16:38.590 --> 00:16:44.590
And so even though I was successful in business, when I finished my undergrad, I didn't want to stop.

00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:45.759
I wanted to keep going.

00:16:45.789 --> 00:16:46.059
Yeah.

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.340
And so I applied for grad school.

00:16:49.245 --> 00:17:00.585
Um, for sociology, um, I went to CU Denver and, um, you know, three quarters, um, through that program I got approached about, um, joining a PhD program upstairs in public affairs.

00:17:00.585 --> 00:17:02.715
'cause I had taken a couple of those courses too.

00:17:03.284 --> 00:17:03.315
Okay.

00:17:03.315 --> 00:17:05.954
Had a couple of professors, professors thought you were smarter than normal Yeah.

00:17:05.954 --> 00:17:06.049
And stuff.

00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:06.250
Yeah.

00:17:06.255 --> 00:17:07.724
Which was flattering as hell.

00:17:07.845 --> 00:17:08.204
Really.

00:17:08.204 --> 00:17:09.375
I mean, it really was.

00:17:09.944 --> 00:17:10.846
And so I applied to that part.

00:17:10.851 --> 00:17:17.805
It's probably, I hate to say it, but you're like a big muscular dude and kind of one just kind of assumes that dudes like you aren't as smart.

00:17:17.835 --> 00:17:19.065
No, that's right.

00:17:19.335 --> 00:17:20.325
I'm sorry to say it.

00:17:20.714 --> 00:17:21.224
Even me.

00:17:21.525 --> 00:17:21.855
I agree.

00:17:21.855 --> 00:17:29.055
As a, as a big slim, non muscular dude, I'm like, well, I think guy could beat me up, but at least I'm smarter than he is.

00:17:29.055 --> 00:17:30.375
But now I'm not so sure.

00:17:30.525 --> 00:17:31.545
Oh, that's funny.

00:17:31.545 --> 00:17:32.384
Anyway, keep going.

00:17:32.384 --> 00:17:32.775
I'm sorry.

00:17:33.164 --> 00:17:33.734
Um.

00:17:34.095 --> 00:17:36.644
But, uh, but yeah, that's cool to be and honoring right.

00:17:36.644 --> 00:17:38.625
After kind of very struggling a bit Oh, yeah.

00:17:38.625 --> 00:17:39.884
With your early Yeah.

00:17:39.914 --> 00:17:40.964
College, early career.

00:17:40.964 --> 00:17:41.115
Yeah.

00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.005
And, and this, and then the band stuff.

00:17:43.005 --> 00:17:44.265
And nobody likes your coffee that much.

00:17:44.265 --> 00:17:44.865
Yeah, that's right.

00:17:44.865 --> 00:17:45.345
That's right.

00:17:45.349 --> 00:17:49.244
You know, and, and you know, I, I, I, my mom got pregnant with me when she was 15.

00:17:49.244 --> 00:17:50.325
I grew up in poverty.

00:17:50.325 --> 00:17:55.095
I was very self-conscious my entire life about my status in the world, right?

00:17:55.095 --> 00:17:55.096
Mm-hmm.

00:17:55.164 --> 00:17:55.184
Mm-hmm.

00:17:55.424 --> 00:17:56.355
Very self-conscious.

00:17:56.355 --> 00:17:58.065
Always felt people were like looking down on me.

00:17:58.664 --> 00:18:03.825
And so entering academia and, and having some people say like, Hey, you're really smart.

00:18:03.825 --> 00:18:05.414
Did you have the tattoos and stuff already too?

00:18:05.654 --> 00:18:13.994
Uh, I ha I did have a lot of'em, but you know, that, that same self-esteem issue that I tried to describe also, you know, in school I was a lot more guarded.

00:18:13.994 --> 00:18:14.234
Right.

00:18:14.234 --> 00:18:19.994
And especially if I was in a grad, my grad program or whatever, I thought a lot about how do I look and how do I appear?

00:18:20.204 --> 00:18:20.325
Yeah.

00:18:20.325 --> 00:18:21.855
Because I want people to take me seriously.

00:18:21.855 --> 00:18:22.184
Yeah.

00:18:22.305 --> 00:18:22.575
Yeah.

00:18:22.694 --> 00:18:24.855
Um, and I want to get back to there too.

00:18:24.855 --> 00:18:29.295
That was the question I just wrote down was how much did your family background and having that.

00:18:29.789 --> 00:18:31.434
Early breakup of your parents mm-hmm.

00:18:31.515 --> 00:18:35.549
And your life and how did that all, you know, how much of that played into Yeah.

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:38.730
You know, your eventual passion for sociology?

00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:39.089
Yeah.

00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.630
Oh, all of it.

00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:41.609
Um, and so we can come back to that Sure.

00:18:41.609 --> 00:18:43.589
Because I, we will jump in the time machine, but Yeah.

00:18:43.650 --> 00:18:44.250
That's, it's.

00:18:44.549 --> 00:18:46.619
Interesting that we were kind of getting to the same place.

00:18:46.619 --> 00:18:46.799
Yes.

00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:47.579
Oh, for sure.

00:18:47.579 --> 00:18:49.140
I mean that, and that's why I loved it, right?

00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:49.200
Yeah.

00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.970
Explained so much about me.

00:18:51.029 --> 00:18:51.420
Yeah.

00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:53.369
That I couldn't explain before.

00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:53.670
Yeah.

00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:56.519
Like, like why is my life always seemed to be a dead end.

00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:56.970
Right.

00:18:56.970 --> 00:19:02.605
And like in sociology, I could start to, well, in valet, the valet business kind of helped break out of that as well.

00:19:02.605 --> 00:19:02.884
Mm-hmm.

00:19:02.970 --> 00:19:03.390
Like right.

00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:08.400
As a double horse team, kind of the success, including financial success finally.

00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:08.519
Yeah.

00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:11.579
Alongside being recognized in an academic fashion.

00:19:11.579 --> 00:19:12.569
Yeah, no doubt.

00:19:12.690 --> 00:19:13.259
No doubt.

00:19:13.529 --> 00:19:13.769
Yeah.

00:19:13.769 --> 00:19:16.829
So, um, you know, I got accepted to that PhD program.

00:19:16.829 --> 00:19:20.670
I, I, but my business, I had another business that I had started from that.

00:19:20.815 --> 00:19:21.105
Okay.

00:19:21.105 --> 00:19:26.039
Um, uh, a legal technology company again, I solved a problem for lawyers who needed technology.

00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.369
It wasn't anything I ever thought I was gonna do, but I started dating a lawyer.

00:19:29.369 --> 00:19:36.180
I eventually married her and she encouraged me to take my special skillset and apply it to lawyers because there wasn't anybody doing that.

00:19:36.184 --> 00:19:42.119
There were a bunch of old dudes that didn't have any tech involved in their practice, didn't know anything about tech, didn't know anything about business, didn't know anything about, yeah.

00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:50.009
Digital technology, you know, and so it was a perfect fit for my skill set at that time and, and grew much faster, much more profitably.

00:19:50.009 --> 00:20:00.180
Like you hired a bunch of people and stuff, or were you I took the guy two that was working for me at valet ads and I said to him, I said, look, we're gonna start this side company called Law Father.

00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:01.019
As a joke.

00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:01.920
I said, as a joke.

00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:02.250
Right.

00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.630
And why are we calling it Law Father?

00:20:03.630 --> 00:20:05.160
'cause my favorite movie's a Godfather.

00:20:05.164 --> 00:20:07.289
I just, of that, I can't think of anything else.

00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:07.589
Right.

00:20:08.204 --> 00:20:16.424
And I said, the reason we're gonna do this is because when lawyers call, we want to act like we have a company that just focuses on lawyers, even though we kind of do all sorts of marketing stuff.

00:20:16.845 --> 00:20:18.434
And I, within months, like.

00:20:18.914 --> 00:20:24.224
Again, it was a, a scenario which just this, I didn't enough people, I didn't have enough time.

00:20:24.224 --> 00:20:27.795
I did, I had so many, you know, it, it just grew very fast.

00:20:28.154 --> 00:20:31.154
And so my focus switched from valet ads to law father.

00:20:31.184 --> 00:20:33.494
'cause I saw even more potential there.

00:20:33.555 --> 00:20:33.826
Yeah, yeah.

00:20:34.125 --> 00:20:35.775
Um, and did you.

00:20:36.125 --> 00:20:38.375
And maintain valet ads or did you sell it eventually?

00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:38.539
I did.

00:20:38.619 --> 00:20:40.085
I, I, I maintained it for a while.

00:20:40.085 --> 00:20:51.484
You know, it, it kind of went the way, a blockbuster video in the sense that, um, uh, with the, um, with the launch of Uber and Lyft, a valet, there was a lot less demand for valet.

00:20:51.664 --> 00:20:53.045
Why were we gonna take the car downtown?

00:20:53.194 --> 00:20:53.825
Exactly.

00:20:53.825 --> 00:20:54.365
Exactly.

00:20:54.365 --> 00:21:01.085
And so the numbers that I could do before that could really show great exposure for your product and your service were much lower.

00:21:01.085 --> 00:21:01.204
Yeah.

00:21:01.204 --> 00:21:03.394
Now you're just kind of screwing around for a way less money.

00:21:03.394 --> 00:21:03.634
Exactly.

00:21:03.634 --> 00:21:03.815
You're like.

00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:12.309
That's, and a lot of the valley ended up just being at hotels and stuff, and that's transient people who aren't gonna stay and buy season tickets to the nuggets or a luxury condo downtown.

00:21:12.309 --> 00:21:12.670
So, yeah.

00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:13.119
Interesting.

00:21:13.125 --> 00:21:16.720
It, it, it just kind of died naturally, but I did keep it for a long time.

00:21:16.809 --> 00:21:16.990
Yeah.

00:21:17.049 --> 00:21:22.210
As, uh, this kind of background thing where I, I only took the calls of people who wanted to do a deal.

00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:27.279
I didn't do any selling and I still probably made 30,$40,000 a year in profit.

00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:27.490
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:28.809
Just answering the phone on it.

00:21:28.809 --> 00:21:28.869
Yeah.

00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:38.410
So, but, uh, yeah, so I got, uh, invited to a PhD program, um, did a couple credits in there, but law father was just really taking, blowing up, blowing up.

00:21:38.410 --> 00:21:43.690
And so I was kind of dueling with this scenario where I'd have five employees who needed my attention for projects.

00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.769
I have five customers who needed my, my attention for, for services.

00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:53.589
And then I had, you know, two or three professors trying to remind me that I had a 50 page or a hundred page paper due like in two weeks.

00:21:53.589 --> 00:21:54.220
Right.

00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:56.710
And I, I, I remember I kind of, I got something gotta give.

00:21:56.769 --> 00:21:57.759
Yeah, exactly.

00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.640
I got to like a, the, the winter break and just said.

00:22:00.855 --> 00:22:01.904
I can't do all of this.

00:22:01.904 --> 00:22:07.065
I gotta decide, do I want to stay on this academic route or do I wanna stay in entrepreneurship?

00:22:07.065 --> 00:22:10.154
Could you have hired a professional manager for law father by that point?

00:22:10.184 --> 00:22:12.855
I don't think I was sophisticated enough.

00:22:13.035 --> 00:22:13.275
Yeah.

00:22:13.335 --> 00:22:15.884
To Didn't even actually find those people.

00:22:15.890 --> 00:22:16.019
Right.

00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:16.140
Yeah.

00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.384
Because you were making a ton of cash.

00:22:17.414 --> 00:22:17.595
Yes.

00:22:17.595 --> 00:22:17.744
Right.

00:22:17.744 --> 00:22:19.275
Like you could have paid somebody Yes.

00:22:19.394 --> 00:22:20.714
Eight grand a month or something like that.

00:22:20.714 --> 00:22:20.924
Oh, yes.

00:22:20.924 --> 00:22:22.460
Kept your PhD track on track.

00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:22.461
Yes.

00:22:22.619 --> 00:22:23.954
But, but, but I was the owner.

00:22:23.954 --> 00:22:24.194
Right.

00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:27.914
And so I didn't understand that other people could do that.

00:22:28.005 --> 00:22:28.214
Right.

00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:28.339
Stuff.

00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:28.619
Yeah.

00:22:28.625 --> 00:22:30.704
I had never grown an enterprise before.

00:22:30.710 --> 00:22:31.005
Right, right.

00:22:31.005 --> 00:22:31.815
I had had.

00:22:32.369 --> 00:22:34.980
Only these kind of owner operator businesses.

00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:35.220
Yeah.

00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:37.769
And so that with like one helper or whatever, right?

00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:38.039
Yeah.

00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:38.040
Yeah.

00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:39.000
So that alright.

00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:41.430
In itself was a change that came later.

00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:42.569
I definitely recognize that.

00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.799
Well, and the opportunity is staring in the face and you can always go back for your PhD probably.

00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:48.030
Right, right, right, right.

00:22:48.089 --> 00:22:49.349
If you decide to, right.

00:22:49.529 --> 00:22:49.859
Yeah.

00:22:50.730 --> 00:22:51.210
Even still.

00:22:51.210 --> 00:22:51.211
Even still.

00:22:51.217 --> 00:22:51.275
Yeah.

00:22:51.375 --> 00:22:53.309
So I kind of tucked my tail between my legs.

00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:59.279
I went back down to the sociology department and I said, Hey, can I finish this, uh, thesis and get outta here with my masters?

00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:00.000
And they said, sure.

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.740
So I worked over the summer to do that.

00:23:02.250 --> 00:23:03.240
Um, and, and then yeah.

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.319
Moved on to business.

00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:04.470
Yeah.

00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.109
So then I a, I enter academia a few years later.

00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:07.470
Okay.

00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:09.089
Again, when, um.

00:23:09.809 --> 00:23:13.680
Uh, MSU launches this, um, student, this is Metro State.

00:23:13.710 --> 00:23:14.311
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:18.809
Um, uh, the Student Business Incubator program.

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:19.410
Okay.

00:23:19.470 --> 00:23:21.539
And a minor in entrepreneurship.

00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:24.240
So this was their kind of first foray into Yeah.

00:23:24.269 --> 00:23:25.619
Academic entrepreneurship.

00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:25.710
Yeah.

00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:31.559
Someone who I had gone to school with knew that I had gone on to start a number of businesses, had been successful.

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:37.680
She reached out to me and simply asked me if I would come down and be a mentor to the students who were in the incubator program.

00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:41.160
And within two weeks she had hired me to teach three classes.

00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:42.480
Chair Yeah, exactly.

00:23:42.569 --> 00:23:43.200
Of the program.

00:23:43.384 --> 00:23:47.670
I mean, the, the semester after that I, I was, I was the title dean, so I know.

00:23:48.690 --> 00:23:55.230
So it was really, it was really a fast evolution and I, I absolutely became like the top person in the program.

00:23:55.230 --> 00:23:57.720
I taught, taught three outta the four required courses.

00:23:57.990 --> 00:23:59.309
It was very successful.

00:23:59.309 --> 00:24:02.759
They eventually decided to turn it into a, um, a full on major.

00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:03.059
Oh, cool.

00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:08.549
And because of that, because of accreditation and stuff, they, they kind of shut it down for a year while they retool it.

00:24:08.549 --> 00:24:10.289
And at that point, that capable.

00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:11.430
Yeah.

00:24:11.430 --> 00:24:13.230
Like, dang, I love this.

00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:15.299
I thought I was gonna do it for a semester or two.

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:15.750
Right.

00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:17.819
And I ended up doing it for almost four years, I think.

00:24:17.970 --> 00:24:20.069
And you're growing law father on the side, or?

00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:25.049
I grew law father, I launched Queen Anne Pillow Company and I just start trial line, my software company.

00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:25.589
Okay.

00:24:25.589 --> 00:24:27.089
So I'm doing a lot.

00:24:27.150 --> 00:24:28.859
So were you a software expert?

00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:29.519
Not at all.

00:24:29.789 --> 00:24:31.019
And so what did that.

00:24:31.394 --> 00:24:33.644
What problem did that company solve?

00:24:33.765 --> 00:24:42.615
So, you know, law father evolved from its initial launch of just being a web development and online marketing company to kind of a full service digital consultancy.

00:24:42.615 --> 00:24:47.474
Mostly focused on how helping lawyers give better presentations and trial.

00:24:47.595 --> 00:24:48.134
Oh, interesting.

00:24:48.134 --> 00:24:48.494
Yeah.

00:24:48.494 --> 00:24:50.775
So we would sit and trial and run others.

00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:58.454
Exhibits and demonstratives, but we would also create exhibits and demonstratives like you are making PowerPoints for'em and stuff, and 3D animations and Wow.

00:24:59.174 --> 00:24:59.255
Interesting.

00:24:59.315 --> 00:25:02.339
And, and then a lot of, um, graphic timelines.

00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.549
Okay.

00:25:02.549 --> 00:25:06.359
And so we would make these big poster boards of timelines of a case Sure.

00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.990
So that the jury could see different This is where you started going crazy.

00:25:09.994 --> 00:25:10.214
Yeah.

00:25:10.220 --> 00:25:10.680
Yeah.

00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:12.359
And this is what happened after that.

00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.549
And then this is where he went all the way at crazy.

00:25:14.549 --> 00:25:15.750
So that's why you need to lock him up.

00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:16.950
He ain't gotten crazy.

00:25:16.950 --> 00:25:19.230
But we did do a lot of criminal stuff, but we did civil stuff.

00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:19.500
Oh, okay.

00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:24.734
It was a lot of, uh, we, we could do construction defects, we did industrial equipment damage, stuff like that.

00:25:24.734 --> 00:25:24.934
Okay.

00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:27.240
But mostly what we did was personal injury.

00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:34.019
And so we'd say we make timelines of, you know, Steve, uh, was a, a hiker, a biker, a family man and whatever.

00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:38.940
And then he got in this car accident, he got this brain injury and this is everything that happened to him, him afterwards.

00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:39.029
Right.

00:25:39.029 --> 00:25:40.619
Or especially this accident at work.

00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.490
Yeah, exactly.

00:25:41.490 --> 00:25:46.740
And then he, you know, saw a chiropractor 15 times and he still can't hike or ride his bike properly.

00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:46.980
Yeah.

00:25:47.025 --> 00:25:47.684
Exactly.

00:25:47.684 --> 00:25:52.184
So we could, we could show, you know, what happened to somebody over the course of their injury.

00:25:52.424 --> 00:25:52.484
Yeah.

00:25:52.545 --> 00:25:55.545
Um, and that was a really cumbersome process, right?

00:25:55.545 --> 00:25:58.275
Like it was a very heavily graphic design intent.

00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:01.069
Well, huge stakes and huge stakes sometimes.

00:26:01.089 --> 00:26:08.565
And if we're in trial and a lawyer here's more evidence and decides they want to add more stuff to the timeline, all we could do is throw a sticky note on there.

00:26:09.045 --> 00:26:09.375
Right.

00:26:09.375 --> 00:26:10.575
It just looked bad.

00:26:10.934 --> 00:26:17.174
And we also made timelines for mediation as well, like stuff that would happen before trial, you know, for lawyers trying to get cases settled.

00:26:17.505 --> 00:26:24.734
And in all that process, that tedious work and that inability to adjust timelines on the fly, I thought, hey, let's make our own.

00:26:24.765 --> 00:26:27.644
I had some coders in there'cause we still had our website business.

00:26:27.644 --> 00:26:27.944
Sure.

00:26:28.275 --> 00:26:34.275
I said, let's make our, see if we can make our own timeline, web based timeline tool that we can just give to our lawyers.

00:26:34.664 --> 00:26:37.845
Our lawyers can enter, plug in the information, it's date driven.

00:26:37.845 --> 00:26:38.174
Yeah.

00:26:38.174 --> 00:26:41.085
And then if they need to change things on the flyer, whatever, it's not a big deal.

00:26:41.085 --> 00:26:44.869
It doesn't require a graphic designer start$149 a month, something like that.

00:26:44.869 --> 00:26:45.555
They could use it, whatever.

00:26:45.555 --> 00:26:45.795
Yeah.

00:26:46.369 --> 00:26:48.859
So I mock this thing up with, with my coder.

00:26:49.009 --> 00:26:51.319
I bring it home to my wife, who, who's a lawyer.

00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:53.029
I say, what do you think of this?

00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:55.940
And she basically says, I think this is the future of your company.

00:26:55.940 --> 00:26:57.440
Like, she's like, this is amazing.

00:26:57.650 --> 00:26:58.069
You know?

00:26:58.609 --> 00:27:01.190
Um, and so yeah, we kind of make a decision.

00:27:01.369 --> 00:27:03.500
I was looking to find a scalable, I.

00:27:03.809 --> 00:27:04.710
Product anyway.

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:04.829
Yeah.

00:27:04.950 --> 00:27:12.240
I was getting really tired of crawling around courtrooms, moving televisions, monitors, projectors, screens.

00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.769
Like I was just tired.

00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:14.099
Right.

00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:14.549
Yeah.

00:27:14.549 --> 00:27:14.550
Yeah.

00:27:14.556 --> 00:27:17.430
And my, and and, and you're still boots on the ground doing that stuff.

00:27:17.430 --> 00:27:20.069
You haven't really quite moved into the proper owner seat?

00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.140
I'm the owner, but I have a lot of staff at this point.

00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:22.230
Right.

00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:30.990
I think at some point at law Father, I had 15 to 20, but you're still crawling around program rooms and stuff, but I'm still leading it, you know, I'm still the main tech guy and I was tired of it.

00:27:30.990 --> 00:27:31.049
Yeah.

00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:33.119
Um, and I wanted something bigger.

00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:37.529
I could, I, by now I'm starting to learn about how business, how to scale business.

00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:37.589
Yeah.

00:27:37.589 --> 00:27:39.599
That I don't have to be the guy doing everything.

00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:41.154
You met a few more people with examples of that.

00:27:41.154 --> 00:27:41.555
Exactly.

00:27:41.789 --> 00:27:45.089
I saw that you were involved with Entrepreneurs Organization and that for quite a while.

00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:45.180
Mm-hmm.

00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:45.509
Was that mm-hmm.

00:27:45.755 --> 00:27:46.295
That was it.

00:27:46.295 --> 00:27:47.224
That was along these days.

00:27:47.230 --> 00:27:47.470
Mm-hmm.

00:27:47.555 --> 00:27:47.704
Mm-hmm.

00:27:48.005 --> 00:27:50.615
I started there in their accelerator program.

00:27:50.674 --> 00:27:51.095
Okay.

00:27:51.184 --> 00:27:55.805
Which is for companies between$250,000 and$999,000.

00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:55.910
Okay.

00:27:56.224 --> 00:28:01.204
And, um, I went through their three year accelerator program and did get my businesses up to a million dollars.

00:28:01.204 --> 00:28:01.835
Graduated.

00:28:01.835 --> 00:28:03.785
And I'm still proudly a member of eo.

00:28:03.904 --> 00:28:04.055
Cool.

00:28:04.055 --> 00:28:09.724
In fact, I just finished my presidency last year, so I ended up becoming president of this organization, which is really, is there.

00:28:10.125 --> 00:28:11.025
The whole thing?

00:28:11.025 --> 00:28:11.849
Or of the chapter?

00:28:11.849 --> 00:28:12.089
Chapter?

00:28:12.089 --> 00:28:12.825
The Colorado chapter.

00:28:12.825 --> 00:28:13.845
The Colorado chapter.

00:28:13.845 --> 00:28:13.904
Yeah.

00:28:13.904 --> 00:28:20.174
So that's probably quite a few individual chapters Or how does, how are they smaller groups that, how does that work?

00:28:20.204 --> 00:28:29.849
So chapters are usually city driven, but ours is state driven because we don't have such a, um, we don't have a, you don't have a huge membership in Colorado.

00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:34.244
We, we, Boulder, Boulder members are part of Colorado, Fort Collin members, or Potter, Colorado.

00:28:34.244 --> 00:28:35.414
Denver or Colorado Springs.

00:28:35.414 --> 00:28:37.845
So right now we still just have a Colorado chapter.

00:28:37.845 --> 00:28:39.884
However, we have members in different cities.

00:28:39.890 --> 00:28:40.605
Gotcha, gotcha.

00:28:40.605 --> 00:28:46.815
And other states like California, they have the LA chapter, the Silicon Valley chapter, San Francisco, we just happened to be statewide.

00:28:46.815 --> 00:28:51.884
So at the time that I, uh, left as president, I think we were around 180 members.

00:28:51.944 --> 00:28:52.394
Okay.

00:28:52.394 --> 00:28:56.954
So, so all business owners with a million dollars or more in annual revenue?

00:28:56.954 --> 00:28:57.164
Yeah.

00:28:57.164 --> 00:28:57.525
Yeah.

00:28:57.964 --> 00:28:58.204
Yep.

00:28:58.625 --> 00:29:02.464
And, and then do you have smaller groups that get together and stuff, or you just have like a Yeah.

00:29:02.704 --> 00:29:04.775
So within quarterly thing with 180 people?

00:29:04.940 --> 00:29:05.345
No, no, no.

00:29:05.615 --> 00:29:08.674
So within that, we are broken into what are called forums.

00:29:08.704 --> 00:29:09.125
Okay.

00:29:09.125 --> 00:29:10.684
And so these are Now I get it.

00:29:10.684 --> 00:29:10.924
Yeah.

00:29:10.954 --> 00:29:14.075
We at local Think tank, we call it a chapter is like Oh, gotcha.

00:29:14.164 --> 00:29:17.585
Each little unit is a chapter and we don't have a forum obviously.

00:29:17.585 --> 00:29:19.505
So our your forums are our chapters.

00:29:19.535 --> 00:29:19.835
Yeah.

00:29:19.835 --> 00:29:20.045
Yeah.

00:29:20.045 --> 00:29:21.454
And how many people are in a forum?

00:29:21.454 --> 00:29:22.414
Like seven to nine.

00:29:22.535 --> 00:29:22.924
Okay.

00:29:22.954 --> 00:29:23.285
Okay.

00:29:23.285 --> 00:29:23.286
Yeah.

00:29:23.464 --> 00:29:23.795
Yep.

00:29:24.275 --> 00:29:29.960
Um, and yeah, then when I finished my presidency, I actually entered leadership in the US West, which is our Okay.

00:29:29.964 --> 00:29:30.694
Our region.

00:29:30.694 --> 00:29:33.005
So now I serve as an expert to the region.

00:29:33.394 --> 00:29:33.605
Yeah.

00:29:33.664 --> 00:29:38.075
Um, and, and not, uh, so much at the local chapter, even though I'm still a member of the local chapter.

00:29:38.075 --> 00:29:42.394
And I guess, can you, uh, for a lot of people they don't know much about Entrepreneur's organization.

00:29:42.394 --> 00:29:44.704
If you're not an entrepreneur, you've probably never heard of it.

00:29:44.974 --> 00:29:45.184
Right.

00:29:45.184 --> 00:29:47.734
And even if you are, you, you may not have.

00:29:48.214 --> 00:29:48.605
Yeah.

00:29:48.605 --> 00:29:50.855
Um, can you kind of give a, it's, I.

00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:58.440
A peer advisory with some similarities to local think tank, but like a, like volunteer leaders of Yeah.

00:29:58.634 --> 00:29:58.914
Mm-hmm.

00:29:58.994 --> 00:30:02.400
Of forums from time rotating kind of basis.

00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:07.019
And, and then there's, I guess a, a whole statewide structure for all 180 people and stuff.

00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:07.769
Yeah, for sure.

00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:14.940
So Entrepreneurs Organization is, it's, uh, it's different from other business organizations, which are generally like leads groups or networking groups.

00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:15.029
Sure.

00:30:15.029 --> 00:30:22.740
And that, um, EO Entrepreneur's Organization, EO is, um, uh, a learning driven organization.

00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:23.099
Okay.

00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:25.440
Uh, meant to teach lawyers how to, I.

00:30:25.785 --> 00:30:30.585
Um, enhance the value they get from the, their businesses or the value they create in their businesses.

00:30:30.585 --> 00:30:30.674
Sure.

00:30:31.275 --> 00:30:32.355
But rather sometimes both related.

00:30:32.835 --> 00:30:33.105
Yeah.

00:30:33.105 --> 00:30:39.765
But rather than being strictly business focused, we look at the intersection of business, um, personal life and family.

00:30:40.154 --> 00:30:42.224
And so we give equal attention to those.

00:30:42.224 --> 00:30:45.315
So we might have learning events around how to be a better father, right.

00:30:45.315 --> 00:30:45.464
Sure.

00:30:45.464 --> 00:30:47.444
Or, um, how to plan for college.

00:30:47.444 --> 00:30:53.174
Then we'll also have, you know, how to, um, increase your cash flow or get a loan from the SBA Sure.

00:30:53.204 --> 00:30:57.914
As well as personal stuff like how to deal with your demons or trauma or some of the stuff that I do now.

00:30:57.914 --> 00:30:58.095
Right?

00:30:58.095 --> 00:30:58.545
Yeah.

00:30:58.545 --> 00:30:58.605
Yeah.

00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:02.019
And so, um, yeah, we try and give equal attention to all three of those areas.

00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:02.049
Okay.

00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:02.799
I didn't realize that.

00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:04.269
I thought it was really business focused more.

00:31:04.484 --> 00:31:05.079
No, no.

00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:08.289
It's, it's, it's family focused as much as it's personally focused.

00:31:08.289 --> 00:31:09.730
As much as it's business focused.

00:31:09.849 --> 00:31:09.940
Yeah.

00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:13.539
We say, uh, around loco we say two parts business, one part personal.

00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:13.630
Mm-hmm.

00:31:13.869 --> 00:31:14.384
Kind of just as a very.

00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:17.690
Simple, but you're like a third, a third, a third in some respects.

00:31:17.694 --> 00:31:17.984
Yeah.

00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:18.500
Yeah.

00:31:18.500 --> 00:31:21.170
And, and then each person kind of creates their own experience, right?

00:31:21.174 --> 00:31:21.265
Sure.

00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:23.509
You don't have to, but it's still a business person's group.

00:31:23.569 --> 00:31:23.869
Exactly.

00:31:23.869 --> 00:31:25.519
Ultimately, so hard to separate that.

00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:25.730
Right.

00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:27.529
It starts entrepreneur's organization.

00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:27.619
Yeah.

00:31:27.619 --> 00:31:29.900
So I always say the entrepreneur does come first.

00:31:30.380 --> 00:31:32.599
Um, and um, and you do have to have a business.

00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:35.960
You have to be the founder of a business or the co-founder of a business.

00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:36.410
Oh, really?

00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:36.740
Yeah.

00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:39.019
So like if you buy somebody's business, that doesn't count.

00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:43.220
Um, it, it, it can, but it requires a little more scrutiny.

00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:43.460
Okay.

00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:43.549
Fair.

00:31:43.549 --> 00:31:46.609
And there's also an examination of your journey from when you bought it.

00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:46.910
Right.

00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:47.150
Fair.

00:31:47.150 --> 00:31:52.490
So if you're, if you bought it and you're in the process of wrecking it, uh, sorry.

00:31:53.180 --> 00:31:56.869
Or if you bought it, you know, if you bought it, it was very small and you grew it over the last few years.

00:31:56.875 --> 00:31:57.109
Right, right.

00:31:57.109 --> 00:31:59.990
Then that indicated kind of a positive growth environment.

00:31:59.990 --> 00:32:00.200
Yeah.

00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:00.440
Fair.

00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.359
Because like you said, it is a peer group.

00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:02.750
Right, right.

00:32:02.750 --> 00:32:07.430
And so we're looking for people who have similar or shared experiences in which we can learn from all.

00:32:07.430 --> 00:32:08.660
Well, if you've got all the problems.

00:32:08.859 --> 00:32:10.525
And none of the solutions that it's mm-hmm.

00:32:10.795 --> 00:32:11.286
Hard to mm-hmm.

00:32:11.829 --> 00:32:13.359
Uh, find value in that membership.

00:32:13.390 --> 00:32:13.509
Yeah.

00:32:13.509 --> 00:32:14.319
For everybody else.

00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:15.400
For you, for sure.

00:32:15.464 --> 00:32:15.924
For sure.

00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:16.420
So, okay.

00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:22.420
So you, so, so at this transition point into this software company from mm-hmm.

00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:24.490
Uh, kind of a service company.

00:32:24.609 --> 00:32:24.789
Mm-hmm.

00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.099
You also joined eo?

00:32:27.730 --> 00:32:28.990
I joined EO before that.

00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:29.380
Before that too.

00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:29.650
Shortly.

00:32:29.710 --> 00:32:30.970
Yeah, before I spun that out.

00:32:30.970 --> 00:32:32.529
I can't remember exactly what year I joined.

00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:32.619
Yeah.

00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:33.549
But sometime before.

00:32:33.549 --> 00:32:36.700
But yeah, so I joined, really started getting some perspective on.

00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:37.500
Yeah.

00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:40.164
Oh, I can hire people to do actual hard things and stuff like that.

00:32:40.194 --> 00:32:40.484
Yeah.

00:32:40.484 --> 00:32:59.759
So, you know, that was, that was, you know, I, I had been trying a lot in business through trial and error, and what EO told me, uh, showed me and taught me were kind of how hard and fast rules about like, when do you hire, how, how do you, you know, what is, how I had never thought about cash flow and how cash flow allows you to do different things in your business.

00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:00.089
You know?

00:33:00.089 --> 00:33:07.380
I mean, I was just trying to, like, I thought if I made 30, 40,$50,000 a year, like, oh man, I'm making it because I'm, I'm working for myself.

00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:08.039
Exactly.

00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:08.339
Right.

00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:08.400
Yeah.

00:33:08.404 --> 00:33:08.444
Yeah.

00:33:08.450 --> 00:33:10.349
But like, um, how do you scale?

00:33:10.349 --> 00:33:11.609
How do you hire management?

00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:12.930
You know, just a lot of stuff.

00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:12.990
Yeah.

00:33:12.990 --> 00:33:14.759
How do you grow from a half million to 2 million?

00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:14.940
Yeah.

00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:16.200
And increase your mm-hmm.

00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:17.609
Net profit margin all along the way.

00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:17.611
Mm-hmm.

00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:18.299
Exactly.

00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:18.569
Whatever.

00:33:18.930 --> 00:33:19.230
Yeah.

00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:25.799
So those were things, um, that I was not familiar with that really got taught to me in EO and then really allowed me to.

00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:31.339
To see my business in terms of numbers to plan my business, which is something I'd never done before.

00:33:31.339 --> 00:33:31.400
Yeah.

00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:32.299
Yeah.

00:33:32.299 --> 00:33:33.859
And to grow according to that plan.

00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:44.839
And um, uh, almost as soon as I graduated from eo, I started another business, or I'm sorry, from EO Accelerator and into eo, I started another business called Queen Anne Pillow Company.

00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:44.990
Okay.

00:33:44.990 --> 00:33:45.319
Yeah.

00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:45.440
Yeah.

00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:49.160
Um, and grew that from$0 to a million dollars in 18 months.

00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:52.250
So if you look at law father, it took me about 10 years.

00:33:52.309 --> 00:33:52.789
Wow.

00:33:52.819 --> 00:33:54.140
To get to a million dollars.

00:33:54.144 --> 00:33:54.244
Yeah.

00:33:54.250 --> 00:33:54.319
Yeah.

00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:58.700
And then once I learned all these things, I learned from eo the next business, it took me less than two years.

00:33:58.700 --> 00:33:58.910
So, wow.

00:34:00.015 --> 00:34:01.815
Um, and how did that concept come along?

00:34:01.845 --> 00:34:04.664
Why was there a pillow company in your future?

00:34:04.664 --> 00:34:07.394
Because at this point in time, I had a terrible back problem.

00:34:07.454 --> 00:34:07.845
Okay.

00:34:07.845 --> 00:34:18.344
That eventually, um, resulted in two surgeries and, um, the, the whole time before those surgeries, I was, I was seeing these ads, oh, this pillow will save your neck pain, blah, blah, blah.

00:34:18.344 --> 00:34:21.045
And, and I was like, is there a pillow out there that helps with back pain?

00:34:21.224 --> 00:34:21.344
Yeah.

00:34:21.494 --> 00:34:22.485
I couldn't find one.

00:34:22.485 --> 00:34:27.375
But what I learned is that man buying pillows is like a really interesting experience.

00:34:27.375 --> 00:34:29.954
Some are$4, some are$400.

00:34:30.045 --> 00:34:30.135
Right.

00:34:30.135 --> 00:34:31.994
You don't know what the difference between'em is.

00:34:32.144 --> 00:34:32.204
Yeah.

00:34:32.204 --> 00:34:33.375
Like I couldn't explain it.

00:34:34.005 --> 00:34:36.824
Um, and this was, you know, like 2000.

00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:37.969
12.

00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:39.019
It was 11.

00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:39.889
Okay.

00:34:39.889 --> 00:34:40.099
2011, 12.

00:34:40.099 --> 00:34:43.940
I mean, it was kind of the start of direct to consumer companies.

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:44.090
Yeah.

00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:44.840
Fair.

00:34:44.900 --> 00:34:52.219
Um, and I had all this expertise in online marketing already because I had been doing pay-per-click advertising and SEO for lawyers.

00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:52.670
Gotcha.

00:34:52.670 --> 00:34:58.579
I saw that the online pillow purchasing experience wasn't awesome and wasn't Its infancy.

00:34:58.610 --> 00:34:58.909
Yep.

00:34:58.940 --> 00:35:06.980
And I thought, man, if I could combine my marketing expertise with solving this problem of helping people pick the pillow that's right for them mm-hmm.

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:08.719
Maybe I could be successful.

00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:16.190
And so I launched Queen End Pillow really under the value proposition that I will teach you how to buy the best pillow for you.

00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:23.699
If you buy it from me and if you buy it from me and it doesn't work out, I will continue to replace that pillow until you get a model that works.

00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:24.389
Oh, fascinating.

00:35:24.929 --> 00:35:27.389
And so even though people were like, you're crazy, right?

00:35:27.389 --> 00:35:27.449
Yeah.

00:35:27.449 --> 00:35:29.909
Because shipping a pillow costs$20, I'm sure.

00:35:30.210 --> 00:35:30.539
Right?

00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:32.070
That seems like a crazy business.

00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:33.329
And so you go back and forth.

00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:34.260
The back and forth.

00:35:34.469 --> 00:35:37.949
But I have, because somebody takes you up on the, we'll replace it if it doesn't work, but Yeah.

00:35:37.949 --> 00:35:41.789
And we'll keep replacing it, but you had to kind of get good at getting them the right one first.

00:35:41.789 --> 00:35:41.849
Yeah.

00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:41.851
Yeah.

00:35:41.856 --> 00:35:42.780
So like how did you do that?

00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:44.099
We created bunch Matrix focus groups.

00:35:44.190 --> 00:35:45.510
Uh, we created a matrix.

00:35:45.510 --> 00:35:50.070
I looked at you and all your friends studies and, um, well, no, I had this academic background.

00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:50.159
Sure.

00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:51.239
So I'd look at sleep studies.

00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:51.360
Okay.

00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:53.235
I would go look at reviews of other pillows.

00:35:53.235 --> 00:35:57.195
I would try and understand what people were complaining about and what their expectations were.

00:35:57.195 --> 00:35:57.474
Yeah.

00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:59.730
I thought, thought if I could fill those expectations.

00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:07.260
I looked at side sleepers, back sleepers, snores, tall people, short people, fat people, skinny people, you know, and like just tried to come up with this matrix that.

00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:09.085
Let people, you know, allergies.

00:36:09.085 --> 00:36:09.954
Do you want a cool pillow?

00:36:09.954 --> 00:36:10.885
Do you want a warm pillow?

00:36:11.215 --> 00:36:19.824
And finally created this matrix of, I don't know, like 10 or 12 variables, and you could kind of go like this and say, okay, this should be the right pillow for me.

00:36:19.824 --> 00:36:19.914
Right.

00:36:19.914 --> 00:36:20.695
Boop, boop boop uhhuh.

00:36:20.784 --> 00:36:21.835
Yeah, exactly.

00:36:22.585 --> 00:36:26.454
And if I was wrong, or if the matrix matrix was wrong, we would replace it.

00:36:26.454 --> 00:36:31.434
And then people, I guess you had a, a, a margin on each pillow sold of course, as well then.

00:36:31.434 --> 00:36:34.554
So they could still buy the 400 pillow or the$40 pillow.

00:36:34.554 --> 00:36:34.614
Yeah.

00:36:34.614 --> 00:36:37.105
I mean, our pillows were expensive for sure.

00:36:37.105 --> 00:36:37.525
I think ours.

00:36:37.525 --> 00:36:38.335
And did you make'em?

00:36:38.425 --> 00:36:40.014
We did, we made'em in South Carolina.

00:36:40.135 --> 00:36:40.554
Okay.

00:36:40.644 --> 00:36:40.855
Yeah.

00:36:40.885 --> 00:36:41.425
So Oh, oh shit.

00:36:41.425 --> 00:36:41.695
Yeah.

00:36:41.695 --> 00:36:43.164
The US supplier.

00:36:43.164 --> 00:36:56.215
How did you find somebody to make the pillows and how did you, so you, you started researching all these pillows, matrix them, and then you kind of hit different target markets based on who was where, kind of, and did a, did a spread of products.

00:36:56.684 --> 00:36:57.074
Yeah.

00:36:57.074 --> 00:36:57.434
Kind.

00:36:57.434 --> 00:36:57.704
Yeah.

00:36:57.764 --> 00:36:58.215
Kind of like that.

00:36:58.215 --> 00:36:59.144
I mean, like not fast.

00:36:59.324 --> 00:37:02.804
I mean, you didn't fast steal their designs or whatever, but that I, yeah, I wouldn't say like that.

00:37:02.804 --> 00:37:04.184
I, I was not a pillow genius.

00:37:04.184 --> 00:37:05.000
I didn't know shit about that.

00:37:06.045 --> 00:37:06.135
Right.

00:37:06.135 --> 00:37:07.784
Like, how do you get a product to sell in the first place?

00:37:07.784 --> 00:37:08.954
It seems like that's a long journey.

00:37:08.954 --> 00:37:14.715
All I knew was like, I want a better pillow for myself and I wanted to understand this problem so I could sleep better.

00:37:14.775 --> 00:37:15.014
All right.

00:37:15.014 --> 00:37:15.375
You know?

00:37:15.375 --> 00:37:24.704
And so, um, I reached out to a number of pillow manufacturers asking them if they would be willing to help me make some pillows for myself and test out different materials.

00:37:24.704 --> 00:37:26.985
And everybody except one company ignored me.

00:37:27.164 --> 00:37:30.045
And the company that answered me was in South Carolina.

00:37:30.045 --> 00:37:32.385
And they were not a consumer company.

00:37:32.385 --> 00:37:34.875
They were an industrial pillow company, if you will.

00:37:34.875 --> 00:37:38.594
So they made pillow embedding products for hospitals and hotels.

00:37:38.594 --> 00:37:38.925
Sure.

00:37:39.465 --> 00:37:41.025
And so I was no threat to them.

00:37:41.025 --> 00:37:41.385
Right.

00:37:41.474 --> 00:37:43.394
They were happy to screw around with me.

00:37:43.605 --> 00:37:43.695
Right.

00:37:43.784 --> 00:37:45.045
You give'em a little fun little project.

00:37:45.045 --> 00:37:45.224
Yeah.

00:37:45.255 --> 00:37:52.844
I'd send them some ideas, they'd send me some samples, I'd dick with them, send them back, they'd sell it back, you know, and I suddenly, I got these pillows I really liked.

00:37:53.355 --> 00:37:55.664
I said, I, I think I might start a company.

00:37:55.784 --> 00:37:58.155
Did you have a few thousand dollars invested by now?

00:37:58.184 --> 00:37:58.574
Sure.

00:37:58.605 --> 00:37:59.534
In a bunch of hours.

00:37:59.534 --> 00:37:59.835
Yeah.

00:37:59.925 --> 00:38:00.284
Yeah.

00:38:00.289 --> 00:38:01.934
Dozens and dozens, if not hundreds.

00:38:01.965 --> 00:38:02.324
Yeah.

00:38:02.355 --> 00:38:04.605
But you know, it probably cost me a few thousand bucks.

00:38:04.605 --> 00:38:06.735
But your back felt better after you found the right below.

00:38:06.739 --> 00:38:06.920
Exactly.

00:38:07.005 --> 00:38:07.664
Exactly.

00:38:07.755 --> 00:38:08.085
Okay.

00:38:08.175 --> 00:38:10.184
And so I was just largely using their materials.

00:38:10.184 --> 00:38:10.454
Right.

00:38:10.454 --> 00:38:13.335
Because they, they had down, down in feather Sure.

00:38:13.364 --> 00:38:16.639
Polyester, they had all these bins of things and they had just foam, let me pick Yeah.

00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:17.804
Memory foam just coming out about that time.

00:38:17.835 --> 00:38:18.105
Yeah.

00:38:18.585 --> 00:38:20.505
And then just kinda let me pick what I wanted to do.

00:38:20.505 --> 00:38:29.565
And so then when I made the recipe, if you will, for what I thought were good pillows for me and good pillows that I wanted to sell, I just used their materials in my recipe.

00:38:29.804 --> 00:38:37.485
So where I might put 48 ounces of, uh, I might have a 48 ounce pillow with 25% down, 75%.

00:38:37.574 --> 00:38:37.724
Mm-hmm.

00:38:38.175 --> 00:38:38.594
Whatever.

00:38:38.594 --> 00:38:41.474
And according to this matrix, you've got these different kind of mixes.

00:38:41.505 --> 00:38:41.655
Yeah.

00:38:41.655 --> 00:38:42.344
And some are thicker.

00:38:42.349 --> 00:38:42.599
Mm-hmm.

00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:43.760
And some are thinner, that kind of thing.

00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:43.760
Yeah.

00:38:43.766 --> 00:38:45.494
Some are softer, some are more sturdy.

00:38:45.554 --> 00:38:46.005
Right, right.

00:38:46.005 --> 00:38:49.454
You know, um, I over time developed a line of.

00:38:51.315 --> 00:38:57.164
Uh, probably six models and three SKUs in each model.

00:38:57.164 --> 00:38:59.625
So 18 different variants.

00:38:59.625 --> 00:38:59.775
Right.

00:38:59.775 --> 00:38:59.985
Okay.

00:39:00.164 --> 00:39:02.445
So you've got king, queen, and standard.

00:39:02.625 --> 00:39:02.715
Yep.

00:39:02.804 --> 00:39:04.425
And then whatever the different fills were.

00:39:04.425 --> 00:39:04.815
Yeah.

00:39:04.815 --> 00:39:04.815
Yeah.

00:39:04.875 --> 00:39:11.954
And um, at first I used their material and then, um, over time I started to source my own stuff and all direct consumer, all direct.

00:39:11.954 --> 00:39:14.295
Your, your FedEx bill is big every month.

00:39:14.355 --> 00:39:14.684
Yeah.

00:39:14.684 --> 00:39:15.914
And then we went to Amazon.

00:39:16.005 --> 00:39:16.574
Okay.

00:39:16.755 --> 00:39:19.335
And that really, then the company really took off.

00:39:19.364 --> 00:39:19.724
Okay.

00:39:19.934 --> 00:39:21.585
It, we were early to Amazon.

00:39:21.585 --> 00:39:26.474
We were, you know, one of the early manufacturers, brand, brand registered manufacturers there.

00:39:26.474 --> 00:39:26.925
Gotcha.

00:39:27.284 --> 00:39:29.625
And, um, that was the real catalyst to our growth.

00:39:29.655 --> 00:39:29.985
Okay.

00:39:29.985 --> 00:39:31.905
And simplified our process.

00:39:31.965 --> 00:39:34.605
Um, and how, what was the growth of your team like during this time?

00:39:34.605 --> 00:39:34.965
Like.

00:39:35.355 --> 00:39:40.454
Um, you know, so I largely, you had these guys in South Carolina making your pillows, right?

00:39:40.460 --> 00:39:40.469
Yep.

00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:41.175
And you just go, yep.

00:39:41.264 --> 00:39:42.135
And they had a problem.

00:39:42.135 --> 00:39:43.275
Did they direct ship and stuff too?

00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:43.469
Mm-hmm.

00:39:43.550 --> 00:39:43.965
They did.

00:39:44.355 --> 00:39:44.534
Yeah.

00:39:44.534 --> 00:39:48.914
So I would go out there every, every couple months I would check in my product.

00:39:48.974 --> 00:39:51.284
You know, I, I did have to import some stuff there.

00:39:51.614 --> 00:39:59.804
Um, it would come up and a ship in Savannah and then it would be trucked 35 miles to Bufort, or, I mean, I was getting into things that like I never imagined I would sure.

00:39:59.804 --> 00:40:01.125
But I thought it was so cool.

00:40:01.125 --> 00:40:01.335
Right.

00:40:01.335 --> 00:40:02.625
I was learning so much.

00:40:02.625 --> 00:40:07.094
I know I had containers coming from China, you know, I was, I was badass man.

00:40:07.485 --> 00:40:09.195
And I love to go out there and check the product.

00:40:09.195 --> 00:40:14.204
Well, you're in this community with EO besides, and they're all like encouraging you and cheering you on.

00:40:14.204 --> 00:40:16.094
You're like, horse dude, you gotta get it straight from China.

00:40:16.099 --> 00:40:18.360
Course you can't be doing a, paying a distributor for that course.

00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:20.414
You got container words of, that's course, of course.

00:40:20.414 --> 00:40:20.715
Yeah.

00:40:20.715 --> 00:40:27.344
So I, I learned a lot, um, in, in that, you know, where to source materials, how to create a supply chain.

00:40:27.375 --> 00:40:30.885
You know,'cause we didn't have anything made in China, but there were some things we had to get from China.

00:40:30.885 --> 00:40:30.974
Right.

00:40:30.974 --> 00:40:32.954
Everybody has to get their fabric from China.

00:40:33.344 --> 00:40:36.344
Um, uh, uh, they just, we just don't have that here.

00:40:36.405 --> 00:40:37.364
Still makes sense, unfortunately.

00:40:37.364 --> 00:40:39.344
But we could still cut and sew here.

00:40:39.344 --> 00:40:40.275
We can still fill it.

00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:40.420
Yeah.

00:40:40.420 --> 00:40:43.784
Fill and sew it here and you know, we can do a packaging and inserts and all that.

00:40:44.025 --> 00:40:44.175
Yeah.

00:40:44.175 --> 00:40:48.494
So I would have, you know, boxes coming from one place, bags from the other, inserts from the other.

00:40:48.494 --> 00:40:49.724
This kind of fell from here.

00:40:49.724 --> 00:40:51.824
This coming from Canada, this coming from Europe.

00:40:51.824 --> 00:40:53.324
And it was all coming to the factory.

00:40:53.329 --> 00:40:53.565
Right, right.

00:40:53.565 --> 00:40:55.965
And I would go there and check it in and, um.

00:40:56.014 --> 00:40:57.934
Testing the different types and whatever.

00:40:57.934 --> 00:40:58.054
Yeah.

00:40:58.070 --> 00:40:59.135
Making sure it wasn't damaged.

00:40:59.135 --> 00:41:02.269
Make sure it still felt good and yeah, it was a, it was a lot of fun.

00:41:02.275 --> 00:41:05.945
And then you're doing the marketing, doing, you know, getting reviews after your customers are happy.

00:41:05.945 --> 00:41:06.005
Yeah.

00:41:06.335 --> 00:41:09.875
It's when you do replace a pillow, making sure they get the right automated email for that.

00:41:09.905 --> 00:41:10.295
Yeah.

00:41:10.295 --> 00:41:10.295
Yeah.

00:41:10.385 --> 00:41:15.034
So, you know, going back to that idea of can you sell pillows to people who can't feel them, right?

00:41:15.034 --> 00:41:17.554
Like, this was the pushback that I got from everyone.

00:41:17.614 --> 00:41:17.824
Right?

00:41:17.885 --> 00:41:21.244
No one's gonna buy a pillow online because they're not gonna be able to touch it or hold it.

00:41:21.244 --> 00:41:23.989
And that's when I said, well, I'm gonna make this incredible offer to them.

00:41:23.989 --> 00:41:24.230
Right.

00:41:24.235 --> 00:41:26.255
That if it's not right, I'll continue to replace it.

00:41:26.704 --> 00:41:33.005
And I got that idea from Tony Hesh when he put out that book, uh, what was it called?

00:41:33.005 --> 00:41:36.304
Something Happiness About His Journey to Build Zappos.

00:41:37.204 --> 00:41:43.565
And he said, everyone had said the same thing to him and he said, that won't matter if we create the greatest customer experience in the world.

00:41:44.135 --> 00:41:44.405
Yeah.

00:41:44.494 --> 00:41:47.255
And that's what I applied to Queen Anne.

00:41:47.405 --> 00:41:49.114
And what I learned is I.

00:41:49.664 --> 00:41:55.275
Rather than looking at those people who continue to eat up costs and profit and shipping.

00:41:55.425 --> 00:41:55.514
Mm-hmm.

00:41:55.755 --> 00:41:56.684
As a bad thing.

00:41:56.684 --> 00:42:02.264
What I learned is when you made them happy, they became the biggest advocates of your company.

00:42:02.355 --> 00:42:02.445
Yep.

00:42:02.505 --> 00:42:07.934
They got online and they told everybody about how amazing you were, how accommodating.

00:42:08.144 --> 00:42:08.264
Yep.

00:42:08.414 --> 00:42:10.695
And it turned into an advertising strategy.

00:42:10.844 --> 00:42:11.114
Right.

00:42:11.114 --> 00:42:13.905
Well, and and picky people everywhere are like, holy shit.

00:42:14.025 --> 00:42:14.175
Yeah.

00:42:14.175 --> 00:42:18.614
This lady returned her pillow five times and they still made her happy.

00:42:18.675 --> 00:42:19.005
Yeah.

00:42:19.005 --> 00:42:20.204
And that could be me.

00:42:20.264 --> 00:42:20.534
Yeah.

00:42:20.594 --> 00:42:22.695
And imagine if I hadn't been nice to that lady.

00:42:22.695 --> 00:42:22.755
Yeah.

00:42:22.784 --> 00:42:28.275
She would've taken the same verocity of her anger and disappointment online as she did her happiness.

00:42:28.275 --> 00:42:33.105
Do you, do you know, or remember like what percentage of your customers actually did.

00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:34.539
Ask for a different pillow.

00:42:34.659 --> 00:42:35.019
Yeah.

00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:36.670
Like it was like five to 8%.

00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:36.969
Yeah.

00:42:37.059 --> 00:42:37.150
Mm-hmm.

00:42:37.420 --> 00:42:38.920
Which is about what I always promised.

00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:41.949
I said, and then like 90% of them probably were happy with the next one.

00:42:41.980 --> 00:42:42.219
Yep.

00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:42.909
Yeah.

00:42:42.909 --> 00:42:44.500
They would just say it was a little soft or something.

00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:44.710
Yeah.

00:42:44.715 --> 00:42:44.764
Yeah.

00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:50.139
And when it came to down in Feather,'cause our pillows ranged from$72 to up to$400.

00:42:50.139 --> 00:42:50.349
Okay.

00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:54.639
And when it came to down or down in Feather, I mean, down is incredibly expensive material.

00:42:55.030 --> 00:42:55.329
Yeah.

00:42:55.420 --> 00:42:56.679
If you buy it, it's heavy too.

00:42:56.769 --> 00:42:57.130
Shipping.

00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:57.610
Yeah.

00:42:57.644 --> 00:42:57.994
Right.

00:42:57.994 --> 00:43:02.235
But if you buy feather pillows that are like 20 bucks or whatever, you're just buying feather.

00:43:02.295 --> 00:43:04.304
And to be honest, you could be buying chicken feather.

00:43:04.514 --> 00:43:05.264
I'm not lying.

00:43:05.715 --> 00:43:09.045
Um, but to buy a a hundred percent down, goose down, which is what we did.

00:43:09.074 --> 00:43:09.315
Okay.

00:43:09.315 --> 00:43:10.965
Goose is, is really expensive.

00:43:10.965 --> 00:43:18.315
So in some of those cases, we would just take the pillow back, send it back to the factory, have it up, opened up again, and either add, take a little bit.

00:43:18.375 --> 00:43:18.675
Yeah.

00:43:18.855 --> 00:43:19.335
Right.

00:43:19.335 --> 00:43:19.695
Yeah.

00:43:19.784 --> 00:43:20.085
Yeah.

00:43:20.085 --> 00:43:20.505
Makes sense.

00:43:20.505 --> 00:43:23.054
I mean, that was a huge, you know, our cost was massive.

00:43:23.355 --> 00:43:23.505
Yeah.

00:43:23.505 --> 00:43:26.775
And so it made more sense for us just to take the pill and pay for the shipping.

00:43:26.775 --> 00:43:28.905
You got containers going back and forth all the time.

00:43:29.054 --> 00:43:29.144
Mm-hmm.

00:43:29.144 --> 00:43:32.534
Or was it all individual shipped all these pillows, those direct to consumer ones?

00:43:32.534 --> 00:43:33.197
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:33.202 --> 00:43:34.605
We just say put it back in the box.

00:43:34.605 --> 00:43:37.005
We'd email them, uh, UPS return label.

00:43:37.005 --> 00:43:40.574
We would come back to our factory, we'd adjust it, sew it back shut, and send it back to'em.

00:43:40.574 --> 00:43:41.655
Man, UPS loved you.

00:43:41.804 --> 00:43:43.875
They did, uh, consistent shipping.

00:43:44.025 --> 00:43:44.954
Of course they did.

00:43:44.954 --> 00:43:45.164
Yeah.

00:43:45.255 --> 00:43:51.644
Um, well I know you wanted to talk a fair bit about kind of the next adventure, um, but maybe.

00:43:52.454 --> 00:43:58.005
So does it make sense to go into kind of like the departure from, um, the pillow business?

00:43:58.065 --> 00:43:58.125
Yeah.

00:43:58.125 --> 00:44:02.295
And, and then meanwhile, is this software business like flourishing?

00:44:02.295 --> 00:44:04.275
Are you distracted along the way?

00:44:04.275 --> 00:44:05.985
Are you doing'em both at the same time?

00:44:05.985 --> 00:44:06.974
What's going on over there?

00:44:07.755 --> 00:44:08.235
Yeah.

00:44:08.295 --> 00:44:11.894
Um, so, sorry, that's two questions, which, sorry.

00:44:11.894 --> 00:44:12.614
No, queen Ann.

00:44:12.614 --> 00:44:14.235
I think we started in 2011.

00:44:14.414 --> 00:44:14.655
Okay.

00:44:14.655 --> 00:44:19.695
A few years after that, my father-in-law retired and he called me and he said, basically, I'm bored.

00:44:20.295 --> 00:44:23.175
He said, do you have anything that I can work on with you?

00:44:23.175 --> 00:44:23.445
Okay.

00:44:23.505 --> 00:44:25.574
Well, the pillow company wasn't my priority at the time.

00:44:25.574 --> 00:44:27.525
So I said, well, I have this pillow company I've launched.

00:44:27.525 --> 00:44:30.074
I haven't, I haven't given it as much attention as I'd like.

00:44:30.074 --> 00:44:32.894
So if you want to take it over, I'll tell you everything that you need to do.

00:44:32.925 --> 00:44:33.315
Okay.

00:44:33.554 --> 00:44:37.034
And then, um, you know, you and I can, and was this pre-Amazon and stuff?

00:44:37.034 --> 00:44:37.844
So this was pre-Amazon?

00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:38.090
Right.

00:44:38.094 --> 00:44:38.235
Okay.

00:44:38.295 --> 00:44:38.565
So.

00:44:39.375 --> 00:44:40.844
So he agrees.

00:44:41.054 --> 00:44:46.784
And I'll, I'll just make a long story short, you know, we start to have way more success than either of us really imagined.

00:44:46.784 --> 00:44:48.349
I think he was looking for something to do something.

00:44:48.434 --> 00:44:49.275
He was a little easy.

00:44:49.425 --> 00:44:50.355
Pay him a couple work.

00:44:50.414 --> 00:44:52.485
Yeah, a couple thousand bucks a month and whatever.

00:44:52.485 --> 00:44:56.565
But we, we just, we, we just, we had a good product that we had it, we had a good system.

00:44:56.954 --> 00:44:58.304
Um, and it really took off.

00:44:58.304 --> 00:45:01.815
And so we ran that for, uh, eight.

00:45:02.204 --> 00:45:03.644
Eight or nine years together.

00:45:03.644 --> 00:45:03.675
Okay.

00:45:03.764 --> 00:45:05.565
Um, and very successfully.

00:45:05.565 --> 00:45:13.635
We had a great partnership and um, but COVID hit, we had a few, we had a month of like, oh shit, we just built this amazing company and now no one's buying anything.

00:45:13.695 --> 00:45:14.114
Right.

00:45:14.114 --> 00:45:17.625
And then all of a sudden that changed, the free money flows into the economy like crazy.

00:45:17.655 --> 00:45:22.304
Well, everyone's at home now, and so they start replacing their betting and they wanna make everything more comfortable.

00:45:22.394 --> 00:45:24.914
Well, and plus they got$1,200 debit cards Yeah.

00:45:24.914 --> 00:45:24.916
True.

00:45:24.916 --> 00:45:24.920
And stuff like that.

00:45:24.925 --> 00:45:25.340
True, true.

00:45:25.784 --> 00:45:26.085
Yeah.

00:45:26.085 --> 00:45:30.675
So Queen Anne went from good growth to all of a sudden this kind of hockey stick growth.

00:45:30.675 --> 00:45:31.065
Yeah.

00:45:31.304 --> 00:45:36.764
And you know, he, I mean, by this time he's now eight years outta his retirement and he's starting to think about really retire.

00:45:36.764 --> 00:45:37.635
Right, right.

00:45:38.144 --> 00:45:41.355
And, um, and you know, our cash flow, we, we, we.

00:45:42.309 --> 00:45:48.070
Uh, we didn't have awesome cash flow because the more we sold, the more product we had to, to buy the longer it sat on ships, you know?

00:45:48.070 --> 00:45:50.559
And so it was just all of our money was constantly being reinvested.

00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:50.619
Yeah.

00:45:50.619 --> 00:45:51.579
But your balance was blown up.

00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:52.300
Yeah.

00:45:52.329 --> 00:45:52.659
Right.

00:45:52.869 --> 00:45:58.150
So it it, it was kind of like, hey, I, you know, we we're not in agreement about what we want to do next.

00:45:58.179 --> 00:45:58.449
Right.

00:45:58.449 --> 00:46:01.630
The challenges we're gonna have to bring in another partner, a capital partner mm-hmm.

00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:03.849
Or something like that, to continue to grow at this rate.

00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:04.210
Right.

00:46:04.900 --> 00:46:06.429
And probably a new manager'cause Yeah.

00:46:06.429 --> 00:46:08.469
Father-in-law doesn't wanna work that much harder either.

00:46:08.469 --> 00:46:09.010
Right, right, right.

00:46:09.010 --> 00:46:09.489
Exactly.

00:46:09.489 --> 00:46:10.690
Which he was always honest about.

00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:10.809
Sure.

00:46:10.809 --> 00:46:15.010
So, you know, um, and so we said maybe this is a good time to sell the company.

00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:24.070
And so we, we, we approached a broker, uh, decided what we want and got an offer for exactly what we asked for, like right off the bat.

00:46:24.070 --> 00:46:26.380
So, I mean, it, it was a, it was a really awesome deal.

00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:28.480
And then in that I thought, you know what?

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:33.670
Okay, so this is gonna gimme some time to turn my attention back to trial line, which was the software company Yeah.

00:46:33.670 --> 00:46:35.230
That I had just gotten off the ground.

00:46:35.500 --> 00:46:36.550
It was a similar story.

00:46:36.550 --> 00:46:40.030
We launched that company January 1st, 2019.

00:46:41.579 --> 00:46:44.849
Got a ton of awards for, you know, legal tech and all this stuff.

00:46:44.849 --> 00:46:47.820
Everyone was like, this is a cutting edge kick ass best of whatever thing.

00:46:47.820 --> 00:46:50.460
Got some clients, but had, had, wasn't crushing it yet.

00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:51.269
I wasn't crushing it.

00:46:51.269 --> 00:46:54.420
Had dumped a ton of my money into development.

00:46:54.690 --> 00:46:55.380
All of my money.

00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:56.429
Well, back in those days.

00:46:56.429 --> 00:46:56.730
Yeah.

00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:56.969
Oh yeah.

00:46:56.969 --> 00:46:59.039
And it was so much more expensive to do development.

00:46:59.309 --> 00:47:02.130
It was so much A simple app was like a quarter million.

00:47:02.130 --> 00:47:02.849
Yes, yes.

00:47:02.849 --> 00:47:05.789
So I'm, I'm getting close to that figure myself, you know?

00:47:05.789 --> 00:47:06.119
Right.

00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:09.989
And uh, then COVID hits and it was the same thing, right?

00:47:09.989 --> 00:47:14.699
It was like all that momentum, all that investment felt like it had just been Right.

00:47:14.730 --> 00:47:17.400
Just sucked out of the room and it was gonna be lost forever.

00:47:17.909 --> 00:47:19.605
But similarly, as.

00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.460
Lawyers realize, okay, we're gonna have to do a lot more of this online.

00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:24.269
Mm.

00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:27.119
We're gonna need, and my, my, my product was SaaS based.

00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:27.179
Yeah.

00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:28.199
So it was browser based.

00:47:28.644 --> 00:47:33.329
It's, it's, and instead of you running around putting easels in, freaking stands up with pictures.

00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:33.659
Yeah.

00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:35.130
You can't do that on a zoom.

00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:35.340
Right.

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.099
During a zoom hearing or a Zoom mediation or zoom trial.

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:38.400
Right.

00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:44.760
And so trial line started to become kind of a popular option for this new, uh, virtual legal practice.

00:47:44.849 --> 00:47:46.469
And so it started to grow again.

00:47:47.219 --> 00:47:54.840
And so after selling Queen Anne for a year, going back to work on trial line for a year, I just knew, to be honest, that I was just tired.

00:47:54.929 --> 00:47:55.110
Yeah.

00:47:55.170 --> 00:47:57.119
I was just, I had been through a lot.

00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.659
I had been pedal to the metal with three companies for eight years.

00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:09.300
And when I sat back and looked at the fact that, I think it was my 15 year anniversary for law father or something like that.

00:48:09.329 --> 00:48:09.360
Okay.

00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:10.710
It showed up on LinkedIn.

00:48:10.710 --> 00:48:11.039
Yep.

00:48:12.014 --> 00:48:26.625
Knowing that I had always wanted to be a musician, you know, and a writer, and I still can, you know, still I, you know, but I, I just felt like I was, it wasn't what I would've picked for myself or predicted for myself 15 years before that.

00:48:26.744 --> 00:48:27.074
Sure.

00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.585
And, and while I loved it, I loved building companies.

00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:32.894
I, I definitely loved selling companies.

00:48:32.954 --> 00:48:33.195
Right.

00:48:33.224 --> 00:48:38.324
But I, I, I just felt like I had an opportunity to sell trial line as well.

00:48:38.324 --> 00:48:41.625
I had sold Queen and Pillow and I could really make, so that went for fresh.

00:48:41.985 --> 00:48:42.315
Yeah.

00:48:42.525 --> 00:48:44.385
I could really make a fresh start for myself.

00:48:44.385 --> 00:48:44.445
Yeah.

00:48:44.445 --> 00:48:46.755
And so I made the decision just to sell trial line.

00:48:47.730 --> 00:48:50.610
That did not happen as easily as Queen Anne Pillow did.

00:48:50.610 --> 00:48:50.639
Okay.

00:48:50.699 --> 00:48:50.909
Yep.

00:48:51.150 --> 00:48:56.190
But when it did happen, it happened with a great company, a great guy that's still operating.

00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:57.389
That's still operating.

00:48:57.389 --> 00:49:00.719
And so I sold that about, uh, it'll be two years.

00:49:00.750 --> 00:49:01.800
It's two years this month.

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:02.309
Okay.

00:49:02.309 --> 00:49:04.829
Two years in June, and then you go into sabbatical mode.

00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:05.340
Yeah.

00:49:05.375 --> 00:49:07.199
And by the way, do you need to take a break or anything?

00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:07.500
You good?

00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:07.949
No, I'm good.

00:49:07.949 --> 00:49:08.159
All right.

00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.730
Let's keep cruising.

00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:11.159
Um, I had non-competes with both of them.

00:49:11.250 --> 00:49:11.489
Yep.

00:49:11.849 --> 00:49:15.090
It made it a little difficult to figure out what I was gonna do next.

00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:25.710
I had a little money in the bank and I decided that, um, you know what, I'm gonna go back to this, this work that I wanted to do that feels a little more important to me.

00:49:25.710 --> 00:49:30.210
And by that time, I had started talking about my drug addiction.

00:49:30.210 --> 00:49:30.239
Mm.

00:49:30.389 --> 00:49:33.809
I had developed a drug addiction, um, over that period of time.

00:49:33.809 --> 00:49:34.500
During the season.

00:49:34.530 --> 00:49:34.920
Yeah.

00:49:34.949 --> 00:49:35.159
Okay.

00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:40.860
During that season of balls to the wall, three companies or whatever, because of my back problem.

00:49:40.889 --> 00:49:41.309
Mm.

00:49:41.369 --> 00:49:43.110
I had become addicted to opioids.

00:49:43.349 --> 00:49:43.380
Mm.

00:49:43.530 --> 00:49:44.309
And.

00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:48.659
I didn't appreciate the level of my addiction.

00:49:48.809 --> 00:49:49.050
Yeah.

00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:55.619
Um, until I started running out of pills more frequently and then started buying pills from Yeah.

00:49:55.619 --> 00:50:06.329
People then started buying pills from the streets more than your doctor's willing to prescribe de and, and then at some point had this like, full blown addiction Oh, wow.

00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:12.989
That I was totally hiding from everybody, you know, my family, my friends, my EO members, my foreign mates, everybody.

00:50:12.989 --> 00:50:14.579
I was terribly embarrassed about it.

00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:16.500
I had come from a family of addicts.

00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:18.210
My dad had died from his addiction.

00:50:18.210 --> 00:50:20.610
My brothers had been in prison for their addictions.

00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:23.789
I always thought I was the good one that I had escaped it.

00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:24.210
Right.

00:50:24.210 --> 00:50:25.110
And I hadn't.

00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:27.570
And, um, and it was tough.

00:50:27.570 --> 00:50:29.400
And so I, I, I did get through that.

00:50:29.699 --> 00:50:31.079
What did that, what did that do to you?

00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:36.780
Like, like more from more from a mental, emotional state?

00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:36.840
Yeah.

00:50:36.929 --> 00:50:37.710
Like, did it make you.

00:50:38.175 --> 00:50:41.655
Short, um, or distracted, or what is the real life impacts?

00:50:41.684 --> 00:50:43.364
'cause we all hear about opioid addiction.

00:50:43.364 --> 00:50:43.425
Yeah.

00:50:43.454 --> 00:50:46.275
But we might not know how to recognize the people we love.

00:50:46.275 --> 00:50:48.855
You know, there's physical, there's the physical addiction and Sure.

00:50:48.855 --> 00:50:49.125
I'm sorry.

00:50:49.125 --> 00:50:52.125
There's the physical consequences and mental Yeah.

00:50:52.125 --> 00:50:53.655
And then there's the mental consequences.

00:50:53.655 --> 00:50:53.925
Right.

00:50:54.284 --> 00:51:01.980
And the mental consequences were this constant story in my head that I am a piece of shit that I have fucked up, that I'm a hypocrite.

00:51:02.324 --> 00:51:02.414
What?

00:51:02.474 --> 00:51:03.434
Yes.

00:51:03.434 --> 00:51:04.425
Because.

00:51:04.664 --> 00:51:04.724
Yeah.

00:51:05.385 --> 00:51:08.324
I thought I had got away from all of that, right?

00:51:08.329 --> 00:51:08.429
Mm-hmm.

00:51:08.429 --> 00:51:10.670
Like I said, I come from this family of addicts.

00:51:10.670 --> 00:51:10.670
Sure.

00:51:10.675 --> 00:51:12.164
To all my friends and family.

00:51:12.164 --> 00:51:13.815
I was the success story.

00:51:13.815 --> 00:51:14.085
Right?

00:51:14.085 --> 00:51:14.204
Yeah.

00:51:14.204 --> 00:51:15.614
To the people in eo.

00:51:15.614 --> 00:51:17.295
I was a great success story.

00:51:17.295 --> 00:51:17.385
Sure.

00:51:17.775 --> 00:51:20.175
And so I couldn't talk to anybody about it.

00:51:20.324 --> 00:51:20.594
Right.

00:51:20.594 --> 00:51:20.655
Yeah.

00:51:20.684 --> 00:51:32.715
Because that would've totally damaged who I thought I was to everybody, and put at risk this vision I had of myself as a hero who could be an example to people who could get out of their troubles.

00:51:32.744 --> 00:51:32.954
Yeah.

00:51:33.210 --> 00:51:35.309
And it was very isolated, escape, poverty, escape.

00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:35.590
Mm-hmm.

00:51:35.690 --> 00:51:36.989
The music industry if you had to.

00:51:36.989 --> 00:51:37.389
Mm-hmm.

00:51:37.514 --> 00:51:39.885
And was this your first brush with addiction?

00:51:39.914 --> 00:51:40.005
Yes.

00:51:40.005 --> 00:51:44.684
Like in your music career and No, no booze, no cocaine, no.

00:51:44.684 --> 00:51:45.375
Whatever.

00:51:45.405 --> 00:51:52.425
No, because, because before that time I was so scared of drugs and addiction because of my family.

00:51:52.425 --> 00:51:52.724
Sure.

00:51:52.724 --> 00:51:57.135
And so, even though I was absolutely exposed to everything, you can imagine, yeah.

00:51:57.135 --> 00:52:02.355
I'm sure outside of the music scene in Seattle and la you know, in the late nineties and early two thousands.

00:52:02.355 --> 00:52:02.445
Yes.

00:52:02.704 --> 00:52:09.875
Outside of drinking, um, which I also was moderate about and, and would take breaks from just to make sure I was okay.

00:52:09.875 --> 00:52:09.934
Yeah, yeah.

00:52:09.934 --> 00:52:12.875
Anything past that was like a no-go zone for me.

00:52:12.875 --> 00:52:12.934
Yeah.

00:52:13.175 --> 00:52:19.894
You know, I was very much like, no, my dad dies even in Colorado, weed's getting legalized and stuff, you know, dude, I I, I do, I do weed now.

00:52:20.105 --> 00:52:20.315
Okay.

00:52:20.344 --> 00:52:20.375
Okay.

00:52:21.425 --> 00:52:23.610
And it took me a long time to get comfortable with that.

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:23.849
Yeah.

00:52:24.110 --> 00:52:27.815
And that only came because of, of my opioid addiction, kind of.

00:52:27.815 --> 00:52:29.465
I still have kinda alternative to that in some ways.

00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:32.195
I ha I still have back pain, I still struggle with back issues.

00:52:32.195 --> 00:52:32.644
Right, right.

00:52:32.914 --> 00:52:40.804
And it has done a And how is that comparatively, like in your mental and physical health comparing the two pre treatments, we'll call it?

00:52:40.804 --> 00:52:41.195
Yeah.

00:52:41.224 --> 00:52:41.855
Night and day.

00:52:42.454 --> 00:52:44.224
I mean, on the physical side of opioids.

00:52:44.224 --> 00:52:47.976
I mean, if your question is like, how can you maybe tell that somebody is maybe Yeah, yeah.

00:52:47.981 --> 00:52:51.875
You know, a little bit more, I was thinking more in the brain side, but also like.

00:52:52.224 --> 00:52:54.824
I, I mean, how people recognize when somebody's having a problem like that.

00:52:54.824 --> 00:52:54.985
Yeah.

00:52:54.989 --> 00:52:57.570
You know, they look outwardly successful.

00:52:57.599 --> 00:52:58.050
Yeah.

00:52:58.139 --> 00:53:06.329
Um, I had, I did have my, my brother worked for me and I, he, although he didn't know the extent of my addiction, he had been an addict.

00:53:06.929 --> 00:53:13.860
And I, and I think he knew I was on opioids, but he would cover for me a lot because, you know, you have two things.

00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.050
One, when you're high right.

00:53:16.054 --> 00:53:19.170
You, you, you can get sick, which is kind of fun.

00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:20.784
I mean, but you also, what do you mean?

00:53:20.784 --> 00:53:21.224
You can get sick?

00:53:21.300 --> 00:53:23.070
You can get you, like you puke, nauseous.

00:53:23.074 --> 00:53:23.144
Yeah.

00:53:23.150 --> 00:53:23.309
Yeah.

00:53:23.309 --> 00:53:26.280
I mean, so, so here you get high, like, high, high.

00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:28.590
I, I think about opioids is kind of like.

00:53:28.934 --> 00:53:35.474
You get numb, but you actually get high like a, well, a cocaine or a heroin, guess you wouldn't know if, for me, getting numb was the part that I loved.

00:53:36.105 --> 00:53:36.434
Right.

00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:37.215
That's That's getting high.

00:53:37.244 --> 00:53:37.454
Yeah.

00:53:37.454 --> 00:53:39.224
Getting numb was the part like Gotcha.

00:53:39.224 --> 00:53:45.974
Because all of this trauma that I had had in my childhood, then it gets exacerbated by the fact that I feel like a total fucking loser.

00:53:46.335 --> 00:53:46.425
Right.

00:53:46.514 --> 00:53:51.045
And so I just wanna do more and more of these drugs because I want it to get quieter and quieter.

00:53:51.045 --> 00:53:54.074
I mean, that was the addiction part in it starts with the pain in the back.

00:53:54.074 --> 00:53:56.235
It starts with the pain and then the pain goes away.

00:53:56.235 --> 00:53:58.094
But at the same time, that was my brain thoughts too.

00:53:58.094 --> 00:53:59.625
All these voices go away.

00:53:59.625 --> 00:53:59.925
Right.

00:53:59.925 --> 00:54:05.175
And so when I took that first handful of pills, it was like, oh wow, man.

00:54:05.179 --> 00:54:06.704
So much quiet, so much quieter.

00:54:06.885 --> 00:54:10.184
I mean that's, and I, and I had never felt like that in my life.

00:54:10.215 --> 00:54:10.514
Yeah.

00:54:10.574 --> 00:54:14.505
I had just always had this constant, I've really never taken any of'em.

00:54:14.505 --> 00:54:14.565
Yeah.

00:54:14.625 --> 00:54:17.715
Like even, you know, I had hydrocodone or mm-hmm.

00:54:17.715 --> 00:54:20.414
You know, something like that for when I broke my leg a little bit.

00:54:20.414 --> 00:54:20.474
Yeah.

00:54:20.474 --> 00:54:21.284
But I've never really, I.

00:54:21.525 --> 00:54:21.885
Yeah.

00:54:21.945 --> 00:54:25.275
Experience, like the stronger stuff that we've had in the last 20 years around.

00:54:25.425 --> 00:54:25.784
Yeah.

00:54:25.905 --> 00:54:27.644
I mean, I probably pass actually.

00:54:27.644 --> 00:54:28.635
I mean, you could pass.

00:54:28.635 --> 00:54:29.099
You could pass.

00:54:29.295 --> 00:54:29.925
Yeah, for sure.

00:54:29.980 --> 00:54:31.815
I, I think, you know, it's different for different people, right?

00:54:31.815 --> 00:54:34.485
There's plenty of people who have taken opioids and been fine.

00:54:34.605 --> 00:54:34.815
Yeah.

00:54:34.994 --> 00:54:41.144
Um, you know, it's like me and my brothers all ended up with addictions and we all were addicted to different drugs Yeah.

00:54:41.175 --> 00:54:42.105
For different reasons.

00:54:42.105 --> 00:54:42.284
Right.

00:54:42.284 --> 00:54:44.954
And my father and my uncle also, my dad was an alcoholic.

00:54:44.954 --> 00:54:46.155
My uncle's thing was crack.

00:54:46.155 --> 00:54:47.715
My brother Jay's thing was heroin.

00:54:47.715 --> 00:54:48.974
My thing was opioids.

00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:49.139
Mm-hmm.

00:54:49.304 --> 00:54:51.045
And my other brother, Matt, his thing was meth.

00:54:51.105 --> 00:54:51.405
Right.

00:54:51.434 --> 00:54:52.034
Oh, and.

00:54:52.074 --> 00:54:53.184
And to big variety of there.

00:54:53.184 --> 00:54:55.945
I know quite a party, everybody together, but, but yeah, exactly.

00:54:56.514 --> 00:54:59.784
But to all of us, all those other things we didn't have any interest in.

00:54:59.784 --> 00:54:59.844
Yeah.

00:54:59.905 --> 00:55:00.565
You know what I mean?

00:55:00.565 --> 00:55:02.425
Like we all had like our one thing.

00:55:02.425 --> 00:55:04.974
And so for me, fascinat opioids was my one thing.

00:55:04.974 --> 00:55:07.105
I think we were all trying to solve the same problem.

00:55:07.434 --> 00:55:09.655
We'd all come from these terrible circumstances.

00:55:09.655 --> 00:55:16.105
We had these terrible thoughts going on, or chronic, chronic berating in our head, or chronic questions about our value and worth in the world.

00:55:16.105 --> 00:55:16.494
Yeah.

00:55:16.494 --> 00:55:16.496
Yeah.

00:55:16.554 --> 00:55:22.344
And we each had found something either on purpose or accidentally that quieted it, and mine was a total accident.

00:55:22.585 --> 00:55:22.855
Yeah.

00:55:22.885 --> 00:55:26.454
You know, at the point that I started taking opioids, I was not thinking about my mental health.

00:55:26.485 --> 00:55:26.755
Right.

00:55:27.235 --> 00:55:27.804
My back hurts.

00:55:27.864 --> 00:55:28.224
Yeah.

00:55:28.224 --> 00:55:28.226
Yeah.

00:55:28.675 --> 00:55:32.724
But, you know, so on the mental side, I talked about being, oh, so did you come clean like publicly and stuff?

00:55:32.755 --> 00:55:33.054
Yeah.

00:55:33.054 --> 00:55:34.074
That time after the sales and stuff.

00:55:35.364 --> 00:55:35.900
What was that like?

00:55:35.900 --> 00:55:37.344
So this is the whole point of that story.

00:55:37.344 --> 00:55:37.855
I'm sorry.

00:55:37.885 --> 00:55:38.485
No, it's good.

00:55:38.485 --> 00:55:40.255
We'd like to schools around here.

00:55:41.005 --> 00:55:44.994
The, the point of that was saying when you said, what did you end up doing after you sold the companies?

00:55:44.994 --> 00:55:48.534
Well, a few years before that I had come clean in.

00:55:48.565 --> 00:55:48.775
Okay.

00:55:48.804 --> 00:55:52.164
Just in my entrepreneurship community about my addiction.

00:55:52.195 --> 00:55:52.434
Wow.

00:55:52.465 --> 00:56:04.045
And the reason I did that was because I realized that if I could have been as successful as I was, and I could have been perceived as as great as I was, but I was lying and struggling.

00:56:04.050 --> 00:56:04.300
Yeah.

00:56:04.300 --> 00:56:09.505
And holding yourself back, that there were probably other people in my community too who were in the same place.

00:56:09.505 --> 00:56:13.525
And so I wanted to be the person to raise his hand and say, look, I am an addict.

00:56:13.525 --> 00:56:14.905
I've been a drug addict.

00:56:15.750 --> 00:56:22.349
I did it for a number of different reasons, but I suspect that there's some people out here who are going through the same thing.

00:56:22.349 --> 00:56:25.920
And I want to be the person you can come to if you're struggling.

00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:31.230
And I want to be that first step in getting better because I've been sick and I've been better and better is better.

00:56:31.530 --> 00:56:31.920
Yeah, yeah.

00:56:31.949 --> 00:56:32.340
You know?

00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:32.579
Yeah.

00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:32.760
Yeah.

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.880
And, um, and so I gave a talk, a private talk.

00:56:36.329 --> 00:56:37.980
Uh, man, it was scary.

00:56:38.099 --> 00:56:38.429
Yeah.

00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:44.835
And I, I remember I went to my wife too beforehand and I said, look, this, she knows about this the whole time, or Well, she, yeah, later.

00:56:44.934 --> 00:56:48.929
She knew longer than she, she knew longer than I thought she did, for sure.

00:56:48.989 --> 00:56:51.119
And when I finally came clean, she definitely knew.

00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:52.500
It's about time you came clean.

00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:53.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:53.699 --> 00:56:57.690
But, um, I said, look, this is, this is what I feel called to do right now.

00:56:59.429 --> 00:56:59.849
Sorry.

00:57:00.539 --> 00:57:01.079
Um.

00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:03.570
I wanna help, you know?

00:57:03.659 --> 00:57:06.449
And, um, and I said, if I do this, I'm gonna go public.

00:57:06.449 --> 00:57:07.920
And that could be embarrassing.

00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:09.269
I, it was a conversation I had with my kids.

00:57:09.269 --> 00:57:11.219
She was like a lawyer in town still and stuff, right?

00:57:11.224 --> 00:57:11.264
Yeah.

00:57:11.264 --> 00:57:11.425
Mm-hmm.

00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:11.820
Yeah.

00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:12.809
How old are your kids?

00:57:12.989 --> 00:57:14.190
Uh, 16 and 18.

00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:15.480
Now or now.

00:57:15.485 --> 00:57:15.585
Yeah.

00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:15.960
Yeah.

00:57:16.170 --> 00:57:24.119
And so, um, so they're old enough to know what's going on when dad, they, they are now maybe eight years ago, or It was, it was probably closer to nine or 10 years ago.

00:57:24.125 --> 00:57:24.224
Okay.

00:57:24.224 --> 00:57:25.440
It was a little harder to explain.

00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:25.500
Yeah.

00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:29.429
But it has been an open secret since then, so they definitely know now.

00:57:29.610 --> 00:57:29.864
Right, right.

00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:33.480
Um, but I said, you know, I, you know, I'm, I wanna go public with this.

00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:34.230
I want to help.

00:57:34.289 --> 00:57:38.159
And, uh, and you know, we talked about it and she said, yeah, you should do it.

00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:39.329
If that's what you wanna do, you should do it.

00:57:39.329 --> 00:57:43.349
And that and that, that first talk was about just this private event, right.

00:57:43.349 --> 00:57:45.090
With about a hundred, a hundred people.

00:57:45.690 --> 00:57:49.349
And then, and then I got asked to do this more public event with 500 people.

00:57:50.485 --> 00:57:52.260
So, and can you make it just as good as that last one?

00:57:52.264 --> 00:57:53.159
Here we, here we go again.

00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:54.150
Are you cool with this?

00:57:54.449 --> 00:57:56.130
This might end up on the internet, you know?

00:57:56.130 --> 00:57:56.670
Right.

00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:58.260
Um, and at that event.

00:57:59.219 --> 00:58:07.710
I had a line, a line of people next to the stage as I was coming off crying, hugging me, all saying, you talk right to where I am right now.

00:58:07.739 --> 00:58:08.039
Yeah.

00:58:08.909 --> 00:58:10.019
And so you help people.

00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:10.380
Yeah.

00:58:10.650 --> 00:58:11.010
Yeah.

00:58:11.010 --> 00:58:13.019
And at that moment, for reals, yeah.

00:58:13.335 --> 00:58:19.739
I, I, I was like, man, I can fix this and I can give it a reason.

00:58:19.980 --> 00:58:29.280
You know, I can, I can give everything, I went through a reason and I can help people who are going through the same thing.

00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:30.300
I can make a difference.

00:58:30.449 --> 00:58:30.630
Yeah.

00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:36.900
And very quickly, that almost became the most important thing in my life.

00:58:36.929 --> 00:58:37.019
Hmm.

00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:45.269
And so that led into the decisions also mix Mexican to sell the companies changes, mix some changes, and to live.

00:58:47.070 --> 00:58:55.230
Doing more of this personal work and this deep work in the service of not just entrepreneurs, but anyone who might hear that.

00:58:55.230 --> 00:58:55.800
Yeah.

00:58:56.340 --> 00:58:56.519
Yeah.

00:58:56.550 --> 00:59:09.119
Because I've lost a lot of people because of addiction, you know, and maybe I can be that one intervention that saves somebody, even just one.

00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:09.360
Yeah.

00:59:09.389 --> 00:59:09.929
Is enough.

00:59:09.929 --> 00:59:09.989
Yeah.

00:59:10.019 --> 00:59:12.480
But it sounds like you've already made a lot of impacts.

00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:13.199
I hope so.

00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:13.920
I hope so.

00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:18.869
So talk to me about where the, the, the writing and the researching comes into this.

00:59:18.869 --> 00:59:19.199
Yeah.

00:59:19.380 --> 00:59:21.329
You, you have a book now, or coming?

00:59:21.329 --> 00:59:22.409
I'm working on two books.

00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:22.739
Okay.

00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:23.039
Yeah.

00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:30.809
So the first, so the first thing that I did was I spent some time asking myself after I got through that recovery, you know, um.

00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:34.050
What did I do to recover?

00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:39.329
What did I need to do to recover and how could I kind of codify that into a system that I could share with other people?

00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:39.659
Right?

00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:42.989
Because a lot of it is like the pain, the negative self-talk.

00:59:42.989 --> 00:59:43.050
Yeah.

00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:49.949
All these horrible thoughts that we have about ourselves and, and, and I did get through that, but I don't, I wasn't sure I could really articulate it.

00:59:49.949 --> 00:59:51.119
I knew I did a lot of work.

00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:52.289
I had gone to therapy.

00:59:52.289 --> 00:59:53.670
I had done a lot of self-study.

00:59:53.670 --> 00:59:58.320
I had returned to sociology for some ideas, and I said, oh, I think I understand.

00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:04.619
I think I understand what I was able to do to get past the pain and the voices that led to that addiction.

01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:10.110
And so I codified that into a a five step system that I call the time traveler method.

01:00:10.110 --> 01:00:20.909
And it's basically to help people reexamine their past, look at their trauma, their chronic trauma, and reframe it in a way that allows them to live a future all their own right, to start to dictate to blank.

01:00:20.909 --> 01:00:22.800
Slate it a little bit.

01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:22.804
Yeah, a little bit.

01:00:22.809 --> 01:00:27.480
But just to, to, to change it and give themselves some agency as they move forward.

01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:31.349
Just saying, you don't have to live under these same patterns and beliefs that you did before.

01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:33.630
You, you, you can be free from these things.

01:00:33.630 --> 01:00:33.690
Yeah.

01:00:33.695 --> 01:00:33.704
Yeah.

01:00:33.704 --> 01:00:34.739
And this is how I did it.

01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:45.840
And so I started being asked to speak to other EO chapters about that journey, and I started to put that work together, uh, in a book.

01:00:46.815 --> 01:00:54.764
And so yeah, a five step, basically a five step program or process that I think kick that thing that's keeping you back.

01:00:54.795 --> 01:00:55.125
Yeah.

01:00:55.155 --> 01:00:55.574
Kind of.

01:00:55.574 --> 01:00:55.844
Yeah.

01:00:55.905 --> 01:00:57.284
Whatever that thing is.

01:00:57.434 --> 01:01:00.045
Even it doesn't, does it have to be addiction or is it other things?

01:01:00.344 --> 01:01:01.184
No, no, no.

01:01:01.184 --> 01:01:02.295
It not just addiction.

01:01:02.295 --> 01:01:07.034
People self-sabotage themselves with other various tools, with other habits, with other excuses.

01:01:07.034 --> 01:01:08.114
Self-talk, all that, right?

01:01:08.114 --> 01:01:09.074
Yeah, exactly.

01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:11.534
The, the consequences of trauma, of childhood trauma.

01:01:11.539 --> 01:01:13.034
So do you have a title for that book yet?

01:01:13.034 --> 01:01:13.485
Is it coming?

01:01:13.574 --> 01:01:15.764
Yeah, it's called How to Be A Good Time Traveler.

01:01:15.824 --> 01:01:16.304
Okay.

01:01:16.545 --> 01:01:17.684
Um, oh, I like it.

01:01:17.684 --> 01:01:23.204
And, uh, um, it's, uh, break Free from Past Trauma to Create a Future that's all your own.

01:01:23.775 --> 01:01:24.014
I dig.

01:01:24.014 --> 01:01:24.074
Go.

01:01:24.074 --> 01:01:26.744
And so I go through a little bit of my own biography Sure.

01:01:26.835 --> 01:01:28.485
Or I guess autobiography if I'm writing it.

01:01:28.485 --> 01:01:28.695
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:28.905 --> 01:01:30.014
A little bit of my own memoir and my story.

01:01:30.014 --> 01:01:30.795
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:30.795 --> 01:01:40.454
Um, and then, and then, uh, kind of the crux is, a crux of it is this addiction that I had, um, one night where I decided I was gonna go out and buy heroin or Oh, really?

01:01:40.454 --> 01:01:40.695
Yeah.

01:01:40.699 --> 01:01:43.094
Or'cause you couldn't find pills because I couldn't find pills.

01:01:43.094 --> 01:01:45.639
You're like, well, I guess the only best thing next thing is heroin.

01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:45.795
Is heroin.

01:01:46.184 --> 01:01:46.454
Yeah.

01:01:46.454 --> 01:01:53.804
And my brother, my, I have a, my brother's deceased now, but um, he had heroin and so I was gonna reach out to him'cause he was a heroin addict.

01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:58.664
He, he had been, he, his thing was actually meth, but he would do heroin too in a pinch.

01:01:59.594 --> 01:02:04.875
And so I had this brilliant idea that I was gonna ask him to shoot me up because I was fucking dying from the withdraw.

01:02:04.905 --> 01:02:04.965
Yeah.

01:02:04.965 --> 01:02:06.795
You know, you talk about the physical stuff and what like.

01:02:08.190 --> 01:02:09.824
Puking and Oh, puking and shitting.

01:02:09.824 --> 01:02:10.105
Yeah.

01:02:10.164 --> 01:02:19.739
You can't sleep and you, I mean, literally, I don't know if you've seen train spotting, but you know, this idea that you think bugs are crawling all over you, you and you're just like, sweat, just a miserable time, sweat and then hot and then cold.

01:02:19.739 --> 01:02:21.210
And, I mean, it's terrible.

01:02:21.210 --> 01:02:22.260
Your skin's yellow.

01:02:22.260 --> 01:02:25.545
And I mean, it's just, you know, and, and your, your liver's failing.

01:02:25.545 --> 01:02:38.010
I mean, this is one thing I hadn't quite talked about, but, you know, I, I went, I remember going to these health fairs and stuff'cause my friend wanted to go, my friend Spencer, if you're listening, you know, and I would get the results back from my blood test and they'd say, do you take a lot of Tylenol?

01:02:38.010 --> 01:02:39.719
Your liver is like really screwed up.

01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:41.610
And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

01:02:41.610 --> 01:02:44.969
But of course all Percocet, Vicodin is all like cut with Tylenol, right?

01:02:44.969 --> 01:02:45.329
Oh.

01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:47.545
So I was killing myself literally with this crap.

01:02:47.545 --> 01:02:50.730
Oh,'cause you're getting whatever you get your hands on, street drugs, whatever.

01:02:50.730 --> 01:02:50.731
Yeah.

01:02:50.735 --> 01:02:51.704
And just poisoning myself.

01:02:51.900 --> 01:02:55.230
If you could just get straight Oxy and find a crooked doctor or two, you'd have been in better shape.

01:02:55.230 --> 01:02:55.469
Right.

01:02:55.500 --> 01:02:55.949
Right.

01:02:55.949 --> 01:02:56.610
But you're just, yeah.

01:02:56.610 --> 01:03:01.320
You're just buying whatever has it in there and ta you know, per, you're lucky it isn't today.

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:02.489
You'd have killed yourself with fentanyl.

01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:03.505
Well, I, that's true.

01:03:03.605 --> 01:03:10.050
No, it's seriously, I mean, honestly, like, honestly, doing that much street drug, getting wherever you would, you'd, you'd have killed yourself accidentally by now.

01:03:10.139 --> 01:03:10.469
Oh yeah.

01:03:10.469 --> 01:03:10.980
For sure.

01:03:11.250 --> 01:03:11.849
Without a doubt.

01:03:11.940 --> 01:03:12.480
I believe it.

01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.250
And fentanyl's so much cheaper, right?

01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:14.909
I mean, it is.

01:03:14.909 --> 01:03:15.780
I wait totally.

01:03:15.809 --> 01:03:16.380
I'd be dead.

01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:17.820
I would absolutely be dead.

01:03:18.539 --> 01:03:22.800
Um, how terrifying and my opioid hunger still exists.

01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:23.010
Does it?

01:03:23.070 --> 01:03:24.900
Meaning, you know, I had, how did you recover?

01:03:24.900 --> 01:03:32.849
Like can we get into that a little bit or do I have to Yeah, no, buy the book for that or like, I did a very dangerous thing and just quit to cold Turkey.

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:33.269
Okay.

01:03:33.389 --> 01:03:37.260
That night that I was gonna ask my brother for heroin, I don't, I don't know what happened.

01:03:37.260 --> 01:03:42.510
I can't really tell you, but I had a moment of clarity, which was basically what you just said.

01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:44.489
You do that you die.

01:03:44.610 --> 01:03:47.550
You may not die tonight, but you will die.

01:03:47.894 --> 01:03:54.105
And you have, I was in my son's room when I was doing the, the other thing I was doing that night was chugging a bottle of wine.

01:03:54.105 --> 01:03:58.275
My, my next, my next plan was, okay, just get drunk so you pass out.

01:03:58.425 --> 01:03:58.695
Right.

01:03:58.695 --> 01:03:59.804
Like, literally like, get so drunk.

01:03:59.804 --> 01:04:03.494
You get sick and pass out so that you can at least stop feeling like you're gonna fucking die.

01:04:03.525 --> 01:04:03.855
Right.

01:04:04.335 --> 01:04:06.224
My, my, I was in my youngest son's room.

01:04:06.224 --> 01:04:08.175
He was in his room with his older brother.

01:04:08.175 --> 01:04:09.224
They were younger kids.

01:04:09.224 --> 01:04:10.574
They slept together most of the night.

01:04:11.025 --> 01:04:16.244
And I, it's just like two in the morning and I'm just like, just, I, I don't know what else to do.

01:04:16.844 --> 01:04:22.844
And I just start looking around that room and I'm like, shit, dude, you do this, you die.

01:04:22.934 --> 01:04:24.284
They lose you, you know?

01:04:25.034 --> 01:04:30.255
And you become the one thing you despise the most, which is a father who put his addiction before his family.

01:04:30.494 --> 01:04:30.885
Yeah.

01:04:30.974 --> 01:04:32.054
Which is what my father did.

01:04:32.054 --> 01:04:33.795
And my father died at 38 from it.

01:04:34.005 --> 01:04:34.275
Wow.

01:04:35.324 --> 01:04:45.494
And I don't know, I just, I went back into my wife's room, uh, I woke her up and I just, I'm about to do heroin and, uh.

01:04:46.469 --> 01:04:48.630
Not, you gotta stop me, but somebody needs to know.

01:04:49.114 --> 01:04:49.405
Yeah.

01:04:49.824 --> 01:04:54.659
You know, and, and from there, um, the secret was out.

01:04:54.690 --> 01:04:55.800
It was like, lock me in a room.

01:04:55.829 --> 01:04:56.250
Yeah.

01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:58.019
I'm gonna cold Turkey this shit.

01:04:58.019 --> 01:04:59.204
And that's basically what I did.

01:04:59.925 --> 01:05:00.494
Oh damn.

01:05:00.494 --> 01:05:02.324
And it, and it was not like two nights.

01:05:02.324 --> 01:05:03.195
This was like, was like, yeah.

01:05:03.195 --> 01:05:03.704
Months.

01:05:03.795 --> 01:05:04.425
Months.

01:05:04.454 --> 01:05:05.324
Oh yes.

01:05:05.804 --> 01:05:06.494
Oh yes.

01:05:06.554 --> 01:05:07.034
Wow.

01:05:07.034 --> 01:05:08.114
It was terrible.

01:05:08.534 --> 01:05:11.835
The thing is, is that there's like, you didn't take any other opioids No.

01:05:11.835 --> 01:05:14.780
For, no, but you were in rough shape for weeks and weeks.

01:05:14.786 --> 01:05:15.465
Oh, months.

01:05:15.494 --> 01:05:15.824
Months.

01:05:15.824 --> 01:05:18.045
It was like six months before I think I felt normal.

01:05:18.164 --> 01:05:24.164
The thing with the opioid addiction that I don't think people understand is it, it starts off as a fun thing, then it feels good.

01:05:24.164 --> 01:05:28.244
Then it quiets the, the demons and then your body needs it.

01:05:28.250 --> 01:05:28.539
Right?

01:05:28.695 --> 01:05:37.635
And so pretty quickly, I was taking so much opioids and so much Tylenol, not because I now wanted to get high.

01:05:37.664 --> 01:05:37.965
Right.

01:05:37.965 --> 01:05:39.224
It was'cause I didn't wanna get sick.

01:05:39.255 --> 01:05:39.614
Right.

01:05:39.914 --> 01:05:41.054
Because getting sick.

01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:42.860
Was terrible.

01:05:43.070 --> 01:05:47.510
So most of the last half of my addiction was not lived being high.

01:05:47.630 --> 01:05:49.159
It was lived being sick.

01:05:49.190 --> 01:05:49.550
Right.

01:05:49.550 --> 01:05:53.030
But a different kind of sick than, than, um, wow.

01:05:53.300 --> 01:05:59.719
You know, it was, it was, you were sick because you're taking so much, but at least you're not in withdrawal because the withdrawal, you feel like you wanna die.

01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:00.679
Like you'll do anything.

01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:05.059
Like, you'll kill yourself, you'll do heroin, you'll fucking rob a bank like you will do anything.

01:06:05.059 --> 01:06:09.440
And do you have energy when you're in this kind of space, like to run these companies?

01:06:09.619 --> 01:06:13.550
I mean, most of these ideas popped off before you really got deep in your addiction, it sounds like.

01:06:13.550 --> 01:06:14.179
Yeah, for sure.

01:06:14.179 --> 01:06:14.719
For sure.

01:06:14.750 --> 01:06:15.110
Yeah.

01:06:15.380 --> 01:06:15.800
Um.

01:06:15.855 --> 01:06:20.505
I mean, uh, uh, when I said I had a brother that would cover for me, you know, I would get sick.

01:06:20.565 --> 01:06:23.684
I would get sick, um, because I didn't have enough drugs.

01:06:23.684 --> 01:06:28.724
I would be under my desk in my office with the door shut, puking in a garbage can.

01:06:29.204 --> 01:06:32.324
My brother would come in, he'd tell everyone I'd have the flu.

01:06:32.324 --> 01:06:34.275
He'd take me home, put me in bed.

01:06:34.574 --> 01:06:37.364
You know, my, like I said, skin's nasty.

01:06:37.364 --> 01:06:38.684
My liver's not wearing Right.

01:06:38.835 --> 01:06:44.744
And all, I'm all, I'm thinking about scoring my next, you know, thing of pills is just, I don't wanna be sick.

01:06:44.744 --> 01:06:46.034
Not like I want to be high.

01:06:46.065 --> 01:06:46.454
Right.

01:06:46.454 --> 01:06:49.454
The fun part of it goes away this years since there was fun.

01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:49.500
Yeah.

01:06:49.875 --> 01:06:50.204
Yeah.

01:06:50.204 --> 01:06:55.244
So when I went ugh, to to quit, I knew what I was in store for.

01:06:55.244 --> 01:06:56.684
It's probably that way for those folks.

01:06:56.684 --> 01:06:59.474
Like, like the Matthew McConaughey and even the Prince.

01:06:59.715 --> 01:06:59.954
Yeah.

01:07:00.045 --> 01:07:01.184
Uh, and stuff like that.

01:07:01.184 --> 01:07:04.394
Like they haven't had any fun actually with their drug use in years.

01:07:04.394 --> 01:07:04.664
No.

01:07:05.849 --> 01:07:10.019
But Snoop still lights to light up a joint and seems like he has fun and so does Willie Nelson.

01:07:10.019 --> 01:07:11.789
Well, it's a different kind of drug, obviously.

01:07:11.789 --> 01:07:18.929
It's because like I, you know, like I said, I, I, I, I didn't say I switched to marijuana, but a little while later I started taking marijuana to help with my back pain.

01:07:18.929 --> 01:07:20.550
And I did that at night to go to bed.

01:07:20.550 --> 01:07:29.429
But yeah, if I went out of town and I didn't have marijuana, I didn't think about it once, right when I was hooked on opioids, I, I could not go.

01:07:29.429 --> 01:07:30.750
You couldn't get on the airplane to leave No.

01:07:30.755 --> 01:07:31.739
Uhuh without it figured out.

01:07:31.739 --> 01:07:32.039
Oh, dude.

01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:33.150
I had to count it all.

01:07:33.150 --> 01:07:38.250
Like, I remember going on family vacations, um, going on cruises with my family Sure.

01:07:38.250 --> 01:07:49.500
And knowing I was gonna run out halfway through and desperately searching all of the countries and islands we were gonna land on to see if I could find anything, coding pills or, or Tylenol three or anything.

01:07:49.500 --> 01:07:49.559
Wow.

01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:54.179
To get me through what I knew was about to be a fucking terrible week.

01:07:54.179 --> 01:07:54.420
Right.

01:07:54.420 --> 01:07:55.019
Of withdrawal.

01:07:55.170 --> 01:07:55.590
Right.

01:07:55.590 --> 01:07:58.199
And, and if you're with your family, with your kids, yeah.

01:07:58.230 --> 01:08:00.599
Or like, why is Daddy's, why is daddy in the room sweating?

01:08:00.630 --> 01:08:00.929
Yeah.

01:08:01.260 --> 01:08:02.760
Or just like, or just drinking.

01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:03.659
Right.

01:08:03.875 --> 01:08:08.284
Just drinking as much as I could to pass out to suppress the symptoms down.

01:08:08.284 --> 01:08:08.375
Mm-hmm.

01:08:08.614 --> 01:08:09.304
Damn, dude.

01:08:09.394 --> 01:08:09.664
Yeah.

01:08:09.905 --> 01:08:11.014
What an intense story.

01:08:11.315 --> 01:08:11.585
Yeah.

01:08:11.824 --> 01:08:13.715
Um, I wanna take a short break.

01:08:13.775 --> 01:08:13.985
Sure.

01:08:14.014 --> 01:08:15.485
Uh,'cause I need a potty break.

01:08:15.514 --> 01:08:15.695
Yeah.

01:08:15.695 --> 01:08:19.864
And I, I wanna get back to this kind of what you're gonna do from here a little bit.

01:08:19.864 --> 01:08:20.164
For sure.

01:08:20.194 --> 01:08:23.914
Uh, as well as time machine, local experience, advice.

01:08:23.914 --> 01:08:23.975
Of course.

01:08:23.980 --> 01:09:17.364
You know, course we had a bunch of stuff to cover and we're back switching to whiskey.

01:09:17.604 --> 01:09:17.694
Mm-hmm.

01:09:18.475 --> 01:09:21.295
Light small, just a little bit.

01:09:21.385 --> 01:09:22.045
Lots of ice cubes.

01:09:22.045 --> 01:09:22.645
A little nip.

01:09:22.854 --> 01:09:23.484
A little nip.

01:09:23.604 --> 01:09:23.935
Yeah.

01:09:24.324 --> 01:09:28.585
Um, well that was, uh, that was like, I was just reflecting, um.

01:09:29.659 --> 01:09:32.029
How interesting that's gonna be to listen back to mm-hmm.

01:09:32.300 --> 01:09:36.050
That portion of the journey in particular, and just how much, I wanna just compliment your courage.

01:09:36.260 --> 01:09:36.500
Yeah.

01:09:36.770 --> 01:09:37.970
Well, I guess you didn't really have a choice.

01:09:38.029 --> 01:09:38.869
You were gonna be dead.

01:09:38.869 --> 01:09:38.930
Yeah.

01:09:39.050 --> 01:09:42.409
Or you were gonna seek help and strength.

01:09:42.409 --> 01:09:46.489
And was there a faith component at all in your working, in your life?

01:09:46.489 --> 01:09:47.810
Do you have that later now?

01:09:47.814 --> 01:09:48.199
Not, not yet.

01:09:48.914 --> 01:09:49.295
Not then.

01:09:49.489 --> 01:09:52.729
I mean, there was, I, I mean, so.

01:09:53.060 --> 01:09:56.989
When I was a kid, my mom dropped us off at church.

01:09:57.050 --> 01:09:57.350
Okay.

01:09:57.350 --> 01:09:59.270
Like when I was like, what, five or something.

01:09:59.270 --> 01:09:59.300
Okay.

01:09:59.659 --> 01:10:07.760
I remember my mom saying this, or maybe she reiterated it later, but she, she basically was like, I don't wanna deny you guys, church or religion, the opportunity to be a part of it.

01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:07.850
Right.

01:10:07.880 --> 01:10:08.960
I'm not gonna, it's not for me.

01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:09.140
Right.

01:10:09.949 --> 01:10:12.020
But if you like it, stay.

01:10:12.020 --> 01:10:12.335
Right.

01:10:12.335 --> 01:10:12.439
Yeah.

01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:13.100
Yeah.

01:10:13.100 --> 01:10:20.164
And my, my brothers went home and I stayed, and I, so I ended up being involved in church largely by myself, youth group and different things.

01:10:20.164 --> 01:10:20.364
Mm-hmm.

01:10:20.444 --> 01:10:21.140
Oh, all that stuff.

01:10:21.170 --> 01:10:21.350
Okay.

01:10:21.350 --> 01:10:21.439
Yeah.

01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:23.689
Summer church, camp, youth group, all of it.

01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:27.140
Um, but by myself, my, my, my family was never involved.

01:10:27.140 --> 01:10:28.729
I had the support of other families.

01:10:28.729 --> 01:10:29.000
Sure.

01:10:29.359 --> 01:10:37.489
Um, and in fact, when I moved to Denver, that story I was telling you about, I, I worked for a church in Seattle part-time as their office and business manager.

01:10:37.579 --> 01:10:37.699
Okay.

01:10:37.699 --> 01:10:40.159
And I applied to a church in Denver to do the same thing.

01:10:40.189 --> 01:10:40.399
Yeah.

01:10:40.550 --> 01:10:46.250
And I lived in a church in the basement of that church that I worked at while I was, while I had valet ads.

01:10:46.250 --> 01:10:46.729
Interesting.

01:10:46.850 --> 01:10:49.939
Um, so, um, and I was a member of that church.

01:10:49.939 --> 01:10:50.180
Huh.

01:10:50.210 --> 01:10:51.560
That church was a much more.

01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:58.159
Liberal church than some of the, um, more eval evangelical churches that I had been exposed to.

01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:00.800
And, um, and I was a full on member.

01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:03.380
You know, I had, I I I had what I thought fully involved.

01:11:03.380 --> 01:11:03.801
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:03.829 --> 01:11:11.000
You know, I, I definitely was a consider myself a Christian and followed the, the Calen, the Advent calendar and yeah.

01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:15.920
Um, you know, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, and I was at church every Sunday and Yeah.

01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:21.649
And, uh, actually became a Christian education coordinator too, helping with the Sunday school stuff.

01:11:21.649 --> 01:11:23.989
And, and then I just kind of had a bad experience.

01:11:24.109 --> 01:11:24.199
Okay.

01:11:24.289 --> 01:11:35.359
Um, well, you almost said you considered yourself a Christian back then, but you don't think you actually knew the news yet or something, or, I, I, I was, I always said I was a reluctant son of God.

01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:37.039
Okay.

01:11:37.039 --> 01:11:37.041
Okay.

01:11:37.041 --> 01:11:37.064
So, all right.

01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:39.229
So I, while I.

01:11:39.739 --> 01:11:47.210
Believe in God now and believed in God, then I often like relied on God to fix things in my life.

01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:52.819
And when God did not fix things in my life, I became very right.

01:11:52.819 --> 01:11:53.090
Right.

01:11:53.090 --> 01:11:56.930
Very disappointed in God and would ask myself, well, what the fuck do I need you for?

01:11:56.960 --> 01:11:57.289
Right?

01:11:57.289 --> 01:11:59.840
And so you're not gonna help me then I guess I'll just do it.

01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:00.744
My dad says, that's right.

01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:01.279
That's right.

01:12:01.279 --> 01:12:11.479
And for a while there, I, I kind of tricked, tricked myself because I, I always felt like at the point that I left the church and decided to leave a organized religion is when my career really took off.

01:12:11.479 --> 01:12:13.909
I started having a lot of success in entrepreneurship.

01:12:13.909 --> 01:12:21.529
And I remember saying to some people, see, when I stopped relying on God was back God for my success, and I started relying on myself, look what happened.

01:12:21.529 --> 01:12:28.850
And to me that was evidence that, uh, you know, I did have a little period of atheism there where I said, this is evidence that there, there is no God.

01:12:28.850 --> 01:12:30.770
Or if there is one, he has nothing, no interest.

01:12:30.770 --> 01:12:31.039
He's us back.

01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:33.229
Whether I do it, whether I do good or not.

01:12:33.845 --> 01:12:35.404
So I got no interest in him.

01:12:35.975 --> 01:12:40.114
Um, but that, that definitely has changed over the last, um.

01:12:41.045 --> 01:12:42.484
You know, eight years for sure.

01:12:42.484 --> 01:12:42.545
Yeah.

01:12:42.604 --> 01:12:47.645
Um, uh, and then I've done some deep work, um, with psychedelics.

01:12:47.824 --> 01:12:47.885
Okay.

01:12:48.064 --> 01:12:49.715
Uh, as part of my therapy.

01:12:50.225 --> 01:12:50.284
Yeah.

01:12:50.404 --> 01:12:50.765
Interesting.

01:12:50.795 --> 01:12:54.604
And, um, I have, uh, the best relationship with God I've ever had.

01:12:54.784 --> 01:12:54.935
Awesome.

01:12:54.935 --> 01:13:01.085
And, uh, a really deep, meaningful relationship with God and not one that I'm scared to share or talk about.

01:13:01.505 --> 01:13:11.255
Um, that, and, and, and, and that does not mean that I think Jesus is coming back on a horse with a flaming sword and gonna cut off all the heads of people who thought like I did what I, some things aren't quite so literal.

01:13:11.255 --> 01:13:11.675
Right.

01:13:11.675 --> 01:13:12.364
Exactly.

01:13:12.364 --> 01:13:13.175
Exactly.

01:13:13.265 --> 01:13:15.845
Um, but, but you do believe in Jesus still.

01:13:15.845 --> 01:13:17.435
Do you consider yourself a Christian?

01:13:17.465 --> 01:13:17.734
Yeah.

01:13:17.734 --> 01:13:19.835
I say my tradition.

01:13:19.864 --> 01:13:22.475
So that is my practice to God is Christianity.

01:13:22.505 --> 01:13:22.774
Okay.

01:13:22.864 --> 01:13:28.534
But that doesn't mean that I believe that's the only way, you know, um, I like to say, uh.

01:13:28.949 --> 01:13:33.750
It feels to me like every lens upon who God is, is a blurry one.

01:13:33.784 --> 01:13:34.104
Mm-hmm.

01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:39.960
And Jesus and the Christians in general seem to have the most clearest one.

01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:40.170
Yeah.

01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.560
Um, and so to me that's kind of my practice as well.

01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:50.399
But I'm also, I'm not God, so I'm not the judge of whether somebody that's a, an amazing Hindu or a Buddhist.

01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:50.460
Yeah.

01:13:50.489 --> 01:13:51.659
Or Islam.

01:13:51.810 --> 01:13:52.109
Yeah.

01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:52.949
Uh, doesn't.

01:13:53.345 --> 01:13:57.364
Also, you know, it says it kind of clear, but that's what you would say if you were trying to get everybody to join.

01:13:57.364 --> 01:13:57.829
That's book.

01:13:58.329 --> 01:13:58.550
So.

01:13:58.550 --> 01:13:58.869
Exactly.

01:13:59.250 --> 01:14:00.274
So I dunno exactly.

01:14:00.305 --> 01:14:05.045
I think there are many routes to God, but I do think a practice is important and I think that a community.

01:14:05.225 --> 01:14:05.494
Yeah.

01:14:05.494 --> 01:14:20.645
And I think that religions are our practice and, um, you know, I'm also a libertarian, so as long as your religion doesn't infringe on my religion or your religion doesn't require you to cut my head off and doesn't require to cut your head off, then you know, I'm kind of Will Ferrell in a semi-pro.

01:14:20.645 --> 01:14:21.274
Hey everybody.

01:14:21.274 --> 01:14:21.935
Love everybody.

01:14:22.055 --> 01:14:27.244
Have you, uh, would you care to talk about, uh, the psychedelics and how that influenced Absolutely.

01:14:27.244 --> 01:14:27.545
Your journey?

01:14:27.545 --> 01:14:31.055
I've heard a lot of things about that and I know Denver's decriminalized now.

01:14:31.055 --> 01:14:31.055
Yeah.

01:14:31.385 --> 01:14:33.664
I don't know if you recognize it, but that's a giant mushroom right there.

01:14:33.725 --> 01:14:34.685
Oh, yes it is.

01:14:34.685 --> 01:14:35.164
Yes it is.

01:14:35.164 --> 01:14:36.425
The neighbor gave me that a few weeks ago.

01:14:36.635 --> 01:14:38.555
No, I didn't offer before now, but it's probably late.

01:14:39.335 --> 01:14:40.805
I, I You be driving home in a funny way.

01:14:40.805 --> 01:14:41.194
That's true.

01:14:41.404 --> 01:14:44.194
I'd love to because I talk about my businesses all the time.

01:14:44.345 --> 01:14:44.435
Yeah.

01:14:44.435 --> 01:14:47.435
And this, this part I don't get a, a lot of chance to speak about, so, okay.

01:14:47.440 --> 01:14:47.670
Of course.

01:14:48.125 --> 01:14:48.274
Yeah.

01:14:48.484 --> 01:14:49.984
Um, so you're.

01:14:50.750 --> 01:14:52.729
I guess set the stage a little bit for us.

01:14:52.729 --> 01:14:55.760
Like you're, you're, you've been clean mm-hmm.

01:14:56.034 --> 01:14:58.100
For, for months and months by this point, right?

01:14:58.100 --> 01:14:58.159
Yeah.

01:14:58.159 --> 01:15:01.850
But you, you mentioned already earlier that you still have this draw.

01:15:02.300 --> 01:15:02.479
Yeah.

01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:06.140
Like if I had a oxy right now, I would, I put it right there.

01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:09.020
You'd be like, I could probably just eat that, just that one.

01:15:09.050 --> 01:15:12.380
I wouldn't, but I know, but I know that I want it.

01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:12.920
Right, right.

01:15:12.979 --> 01:15:19.010
I, I, I, and you know, as an example, I got meningitis, uh, okay.

01:15:19.010 --> 01:15:20.119
Five or six years ago.

01:15:20.210 --> 01:15:20.539
Okay.

01:15:20.600 --> 01:15:21.920
I was hospitalized.

01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:23.329
I was in the hospital for like a week.

01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:24.739
This is like a bacterial infection Yeah.

01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:26.300
Of your, of your spine and your brain.

01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:26.899
Oh, right.

01:15:26.899 --> 01:15:27.140
Yeah.

01:15:27.170 --> 01:15:28.039
It's pretty, it's really bad.

01:15:28.189 --> 01:15:28.399
Right.

01:15:29.329 --> 01:15:30.710
So at any rate, it kills a lot of people.

01:15:30.710 --> 01:15:30.829
Yeah.

01:15:30.829 --> 01:15:31.435
It kills it.

01:15:31.670 --> 01:15:32.479
It can kill people.

01:15:32.479 --> 01:15:33.020
Yeah, for sure.

01:15:33.694 --> 01:15:35.614
Um, so I was in the hospital.

01:15:35.614 --> 01:15:40.234
I, I didn't have the mental wherewithal to say what I needed or I didn't.

01:15:40.234 --> 01:15:42.305
But, um, I was in a lot of pain.

01:15:42.305 --> 01:15:47.555
A nurse came in and gave me an iv, uh, of, of o obviously an opioid.

01:15:47.734 --> 01:15:48.034
Mm.

01:15:48.484 --> 01:15:49.475
She didn't know, right?

01:15:49.475 --> 01:15:49.564
Sure.

01:15:49.564 --> 01:15:51.364
I didn't make any warning or anything like that.

01:15:51.784 --> 01:15:56.375
Um, and as soon as that hit my body, I wanted more.

01:15:56.435 --> 01:15:56.824
Right.

01:15:56.854 --> 01:15:57.814
And I knew exactly.

01:15:57.814 --> 01:15:58.774
You were like, could I get a, a button?

01:15:59.015 --> 01:16:00.694
And I knew exactly what it was.

01:16:00.755 --> 01:16:00.965
Yep.

01:16:01.234 --> 01:16:11.284
And so I said to her, I said, I don't, I don't know if I told her that I had been an addict, but I said, uh, I won't have any more opioids, please.

01:16:11.824 --> 01:16:16.534
And I think she understood what I was talking about, but in that moment I knew like.

01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:19.130
When they say, you're an addict, you're an addict.

01:16:19.189 --> 01:16:19.369
Yeah.

01:16:19.369 --> 01:16:20.475
You know, it doesn't go away away.

01:16:20.475 --> 01:16:20.989
That's not a story though.

01:16:20.989 --> 01:16:21.079
Yeah.

01:16:21.350 --> 01:16:23.659
Your lifetime, um, you have this hunger, right?

01:16:23.659 --> 01:16:23.840
Yeah.

01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:28.279
And so I still today have this opioid hunger, right?

01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:40.189
This, this, this, uh, instant instinct inside me when things are stressful or uncomfortable to reach, uh, for an invisible bottle, um, that's not there, you know?

01:16:40.550 --> 01:16:40.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:41.510 --> 01:16:44.270
And hallucinogen help with that?

01:16:44.814 --> 01:16:45.315
No, no, no.

01:16:45.320 --> 01:16:48.890
They, they, that this was more about understanding.

01:16:49.579 --> 01:16:51.710
How I got into a position Gotcha.

01:16:51.859 --> 01:16:53.060
As successful as I was.

01:16:53.060 --> 01:16:55.279
It's more about exploring that trauma.

01:16:55.284 --> 01:16:55.324
Right.

01:16:55.329 --> 01:16:55.550
Right.

01:16:55.550 --> 01:16:57.524
And what that was, how it was.

01:16:57.529 --> 01:16:57.739
Right.

01:16:57.949 --> 01:17:01.130
Why do I have this inside me that needs to be shut down?

01:17:01.220 --> 01:17:03.229
Opioids happen to be the thing that did it.

01:17:03.229 --> 01:17:03.500
Yeah.

01:17:03.949 --> 01:17:07.640
But, but, but why do I live with such, so exploring that question Yeah.

01:17:07.640 --> 01:17:10.609
Is where, where the second more Exactly.

01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:11.060
Okay.

01:17:11.060 --> 01:17:11.600
Exactly.

01:17:11.630 --> 01:17:16.189
And you do that guided or self-guided, or sometimes self-guided, sometimes guided.

01:17:16.189 --> 01:17:19.909
I mean, I've, I I've done the whole lay on your back and look at the stars for a few hours.

01:17:20.149 --> 01:17:21.470
Do wonders for a brain.

01:17:21.470 --> 01:17:21.739
Yeah.

01:17:22.369 --> 01:17:22.880
Yeah.

01:17:22.880 --> 01:17:24.859
You know, I, I, I've done the whole gamut.

01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:25.340
Um.

01:17:25.704 --> 01:17:29.125
You know, uh, concluding with, uh, ayahuasca, so Oh, you did?

01:17:29.185 --> 01:17:29.484
Yeah.

01:17:29.484 --> 01:17:29.845
Interesting.

01:17:29.845 --> 01:17:30.175
Yeah.

01:17:30.324 --> 01:17:32.755
And was that the, that was a capstone.

01:17:32.760 --> 01:17:33.029
Yeah.

01:17:33.034 --> 01:17:33.715
Yeah, yeah.

01:17:34.675 --> 01:17:36.055
That's graduation for sure.

01:17:36.055 --> 01:17:37.854
Was it as gross as people say?

01:17:37.975 --> 01:17:38.515
Like Absolutely.

01:17:39.055 --> 01:17:40.704
You puked and all that, whatever.

01:17:40.734 --> 01:17:43.164
There's people shitting, there's people puking, right?

01:17:43.555 --> 01:17:49.885
Uh, I did, I mostly dry heaved, but um, but I mean that first round, you know, you do it in rounds.

01:17:49.885 --> 01:17:52.465
I mean, the first round I was like, this is poison.

01:17:52.614 --> 01:17:54.414
You guys can call this plant medicine.

01:17:54.414 --> 01:17:56.270
You can be as fucking hippie dippy as you want.

01:17:56.270 --> 01:17:56.994
And were you with people that you knew?

01:17:57.085 --> 01:17:57.385
Oh, yeah.

01:17:57.385 --> 01:17:58.824
I was with a big group of people.

01:17:59.005 --> 01:18:00.685
Oh, we had a shaman, we had helper.

01:18:00.685 --> 01:18:02.725
I mean, I was in the most safest.

01:18:03.350 --> 01:18:09.229
You know, it, it was a wonderful experience and, and, and I did it the, the way that it needed that I think it needs to be done.

01:18:09.229 --> 01:18:09.289
Yeah.

01:18:09.289 --> 01:18:15.079
And that's with a community of people that you know and trust and also with a group of people who are in service to you.

01:18:15.079 --> 01:18:15.409
Right.

01:18:15.409 --> 01:18:15.411
Right.

01:18:15.829 --> 01:18:16.729
That aren't getting all fucked up.

01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:17.750
They're not getting fucked up.

01:18:17.750 --> 01:18:19.100
They're absolutely not getting fucked.

01:18:19.100 --> 01:18:21.529
They are listening for opportunities to help and heal.

01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:21.710
Yeah.

01:18:21.715 --> 01:18:21.774
Yeah.

01:18:21.779 --> 01:18:22.100
Right.

01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:24.590
And so, um, it was amazing.

01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:30.920
Um, but, you know, you know, as a, as a, as a young rock star, I mean, I did dabble in a few things.

01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.670
I never did coke or anything like that, but, um, but I had done LSD.

01:18:34.729 --> 01:18:34.880
Yeah.

01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:37.760
You know, I, I had taken, I had had some mushrooms.

01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:41.420
I had never had a full on mushroom experience, but I had some mushroom tea back then.

01:18:41.420 --> 01:18:47.840
And so I, I knew I had done hallucinogens and I knew what it felt like to hallucinate and stuff.

01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:47.899
Yeah.

01:18:47.899 --> 01:18:51.470
And so, um, and contrast that with ayahuasca.

01:18:51.829 --> 01:18:57.109
Oh, I, I, I often say, you know, you do acid or mushrooms and it's fun.

01:18:57.109 --> 01:19:00.050
You can go skipping around a park with your friends and have a good time.

01:19:00.050 --> 01:19:03.560
You do ayahuasca, you just lay there in a sleeping bag, like, what the fuck?

01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:05.840
You know, like what the total Yeah.

01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:12.020
And, and you close your eyes and you just go into this internal world where, where the external disappears completely.

01:19:12.020 --> 01:19:12.109
Right.

01:19:12.289 --> 01:19:15.770
I mean, I blasted off into space and time and Right.

01:19:15.770 --> 01:19:16.609
It was fantastic.

01:19:16.609 --> 01:19:20.300
The separation is complete, but Yes, but it's, you're, you're not there.

01:19:20.300 --> 01:19:20.654
You're right.

01:19:20.654 --> 01:19:21.829
You're, you're just a shell.

01:19:21.829 --> 01:19:22.609
It's not a party drug.

01:19:22.814 --> 01:19:24.345
No, it is not a parking truck.

01:19:25.215 --> 01:19:32.170
If anyone's like, Hey, I got some ayahuasca, if anyone's interested, no, maybe, but we're gonna pla it, right?

01:19:33.494 --> 01:19:38.024
Because I'm not gonna shit my pants and puke in a bucket and be like, Hey, this is fucking great.

01:19:38.024 --> 01:19:38.954
Let's meet some girls.

01:19:38.954 --> 01:19:40.005
Let's go play pools.

01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:40.515
Yeah, exactly.

01:19:41.835 --> 01:19:42.810
No, no, no concert.

01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:43.250
Yeah.

01:19:43.430 --> 01:19:44.010
No, no.

01:19:44.265 --> 01:19:49.935
But yeah, I, I, I, you know, I did, uh, I did mushrooms in a therapeutic sense.

01:19:49.939 --> 01:19:49.970
Yeah.

01:19:50.029 --> 01:19:55.574
Um, uh, ketamine in a therapeutic sense, uh, ayahuasca, definitely in a therapeutic sense.

01:19:55.574 --> 01:19:56.444
What's that new one?

01:19:56.534 --> 01:20:02.175
I guess it's ketamine that, like Texas is getting it close to approving, like a therapeutic ketamine dose.

01:20:02.175 --> 01:20:03.795
Especially for military type.

01:20:03.824 --> 01:20:04.125
Yeah.

01:20:04.125 --> 01:20:04.154
Ptsd.

01:20:04.154 --> 01:20:05.024
TSD stuff.

01:20:05.114 --> 01:20:05.385
Yeah.

01:20:05.444 --> 01:20:06.944
Molly is another one that I've learned.

01:20:06.944 --> 01:20:09.645
Rick Perry, MDMA, former Texas, maybe it's that.

01:20:09.645 --> 01:20:10.425
It's MDMA.

01:20:10.545 --> 01:20:10.694
Yeah.

01:20:10.694 --> 01:20:11.175
Former gov.

01:20:11.234 --> 01:20:13.395
Former Texas Governor Rick Perry is a big.

01:20:13.789 --> 01:20:14.840
Advocate for that.

01:20:14.840 --> 01:20:19.279
So ketamine is legal already, and you can, you can go, I think it's MDMA.

01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:22.489
So MDMA is the one that still is like a research drug.

01:20:22.494 --> 01:20:22.604
Yeah.

01:20:22.609 --> 01:20:22.850
Yeah.

01:20:22.850 --> 01:20:24.800
And they're doing, they do a lot of that in Colorado too.

01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:29.000
There's a group in Boulder that does a lot of, so is that part of your future research stuff too?

01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:29.645
Not shift trends.

01:20:29.845 --> 01:20:35.000
I don't have, I don't have any, no aspirations going that, that's just personal curiosity therapy basically.

01:20:35.029 --> 01:20:36.590
There are plenty of people doing that.

01:20:36.590 --> 01:20:43.850
I'm happy to share my experiences, which have all been positive in the hopes that, um, it can be incorporated as a treatment.

01:20:43.850 --> 01:20:46.579
Because, you know, it's often what I say, and I say this to my kids too.

01:20:46.579 --> 01:20:46.640
Yeah.

01:20:46.699 --> 01:20:47.960
I mean, they, they know this too.

01:20:48.350 --> 01:20:55.970
You know, I've gotten the very same kind of insight and benefit from meditation, from being sober and sitting with myself and focusing on something.

01:20:56.074 --> 01:20:56.135
Yeah.

01:20:56.914 --> 01:20:59.885
But drugs do an amazing job of creating a shortcut for that.

01:21:00.064 --> 01:21:00.819
Right, right, right.

01:21:01.114 --> 01:21:04.145
And so it's, it's not that it's absolutely necessary.

01:21:04.145 --> 01:21:05.345
In fact, breath work is another thing.

01:21:05.345 --> 01:21:06.034
I've heard that, yeah.

01:21:06.034 --> 01:21:07.685
You can get it almost a psychedelic state.

01:21:07.685 --> 01:21:07.774
Mm-hmm.

01:21:07.774 --> 01:21:08.585
Just from breath work.

01:21:08.734 --> 01:21:09.185
Yeah.

01:21:09.215 --> 01:21:09.484
Yeah.

01:21:09.484 --> 01:21:10.744
But it definitely is a shortcut.

01:21:10.744 --> 01:21:12.154
It speeds up the process.

01:21:12.154 --> 01:21:12.155
Yeah.

01:21:12.155 --> 01:21:12.157
Yeah.

01:21:12.162 --> 01:21:17.465
And so at that time in my life, for those years in my life, I felt like I was in an emergency.

01:21:17.555 --> 01:21:17.914
Yeah.

01:21:18.034 --> 01:21:22.175
And that I was willing to do that, to kind of speed up that process.

01:21:22.774 --> 01:21:28.715
And so have you allowed yourself to feel like a successful person now after exiting Yes.

01:21:28.715 --> 01:21:30.725
These couple of businesses the last couple years, yes.

01:21:30.725 --> 01:21:34.234
And stuff, but I define success much differently than I did before.

01:21:34.550 --> 01:21:39.979
And, and I do not define it by my money, my sales, your balance sheet, my businesses or my stature balance.

01:21:40.010 --> 01:21:42.800
No, it's about, uh, time with my kids.

01:21:42.949 --> 01:21:53.539
The, the, the how I interrupted generations of, um, family trauma to create something good in them and to be able to see that it will continue to be good.

01:21:53.899 --> 01:21:57.079
Most importantly, that I can be a father who can be there for them.

01:21:57.470 --> 01:22:00.229
When I didn't have a father, my father didn't have a father, right?

01:22:00.229 --> 01:22:05.270
There were always these great generational interruptions to just love, peace and kindness.

01:22:05.510 --> 01:22:05.569
Yeah.

01:22:05.630 --> 01:22:09.199
And I was able to create that in my family, even through my struggles, thank God.

01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:12.739
Um, and so I, I define success like that.

01:22:12.739 --> 01:22:16.550
And, and, you know, somebody asked me, I was giving a talk to EO San Antonio.

01:22:16.614 --> 01:22:25.524
And I was talking about this, my ayahuasca experience and coming out of that, knowing what the meaning and purpose of my life was and finding out that it had nothing to do with business.

01:22:25.885 --> 01:22:28.465
Um, and just being so happy and content with that.

01:22:28.465 --> 01:22:32.635
And this woman asked me, she said, is it hard to get back into business after that?

01:22:33.145 --> 01:22:34.824
And I said, honestly, yeah, it is.

01:22:35.185 --> 01:22:42.085
You know, my whole world, my whole perspective changed after going through not just ayahuasca, but all of those processes.

01:22:42.085 --> 01:22:42.145
Yeah.

01:22:42.145 --> 01:22:43.975
I'm sure about what's important.

01:22:43.975 --> 01:22:45.625
A lot of stripping down and what matters.

01:22:45.625 --> 01:22:46.854
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:46.854 --> 01:22:56.545
And so this idea of just going to make money and using the resources of the earth just for the sake of making money is just, it's not something I can do or tolerate anymore.

01:22:57.484 --> 01:22:59.404
Again, it's like my vegetarianism.

01:22:59.404 --> 01:23:00.604
I don't give a shit what you do.

01:23:00.604 --> 01:23:01.354
I'm not going out there.

01:23:01.354 --> 01:23:01.895
Are you a vegetarian?

01:23:01.895 --> 01:23:01.984
Yeah.

01:23:02.675 --> 01:23:02.854
Damn.

01:23:02.854 --> 01:23:04.895
You're a strong looking dude for a vegetarian.

01:23:04.895 --> 01:23:05.885
A lot of shakes, man.

01:23:05.885 --> 01:23:06.755
A lot of shake shakes.

01:23:07.324 --> 01:23:08.704
Um, a lot of shakes.

01:23:08.734 --> 01:23:09.604
How long has that been?

01:23:09.664 --> 01:23:11.465
Uh, like 12, 13 years.

01:23:11.524 --> 01:23:12.005
Damn.

01:23:12.395 --> 01:23:12.545
Yeah.

01:23:12.545 --> 01:23:12.875
Interesting.

01:23:12.875 --> 01:23:13.414
Long time.

01:23:13.414 --> 01:23:13.805
Long time.

01:23:13.805 --> 01:23:18.484
But I would, I would self medicate with, uh, opioids too, if I didn't have any meat in my diet.

01:23:18.574 --> 01:23:35.555
I dunno, I just say it, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, the point of that is like, it, it, it does, it is harder for me to get motivated to do business things and I feel more called to this work of being, uh, a helper and in service to people.

01:23:35.614 --> 01:23:35.854
Yeah.

01:23:35.944 --> 01:23:39.335
And so, um, I have been distracted by some things.

01:23:39.335 --> 01:23:43.595
I've, I've, I've gotten antsy about money, you know, I haven't worked in a few years.

01:23:43.654 --> 01:23:43.835
Yeah.

01:23:43.840 --> 01:23:45.664
And I got a lot more going out than coming in.

01:23:46.295 --> 01:23:48.784
Um, and sometimes I feel like that is.

01:23:49.444 --> 01:24:03.034
Enough to change my direction, but at the end of the day, I go back into prayer, my relationship with God, and I just try and reconfirm that I am in the right place, doing the right thing for me now, and doing the, uh, doing the right thing for the people I care about.

01:24:03.034 --> 01:24:04.835
And that just kind of keeps me on the path.

01:24:04.925 --> 01:24:06.935
Are you thinking about going back for that PhD now?

01:24:07.024 --> 01:24:07.954
No, not at all.

01:24:07.954 --> 01:24:15.125
I did look at it, it feels like it might equip you in different ways than you realize, perhaps to me.

01:24:15.185 --> 01:24:15.574
Yeah.

01:24:15.694 --> 01:24:19.774
Like it might not be on the same track that you thought you were gonna study, but I don't know.

01:24:19.805 --> 01:24:20.585
I wonder about it.

01:24:21.454 --> 01:24:22.505
I'm not ruling it out.

01:24:23.135 --> 01:24:26.824
I, uh, I would like to jump us into the time machine.

01:24:26.824 --> 01:24:27.305
Let's do it.

01:24:27.755 --> 01:24:31.505
One of the things I like to say is at local think tank, we have a just in time machine.

01:24:31.685 --> 01:24:31.864
Okay.

01:24:33.125 --> 01:24:35.104
Like, forgetting a flyer out or doing this or that.

01:24:35.104 --> 01:24:36.425
It's always just in time.

01:24:36.425 --> 01:24:38.045
Not always, but too often.

01:24:38.614 --> 01:24:42.154
Uh, but anyway, we'll jump in the, in the, not just in time machine.

01:24:42.159 --> 01:24:42.904
Sure, sure, sure.

01:24:43.444 --> 01:24:47.494
So let's go back to like those, like earliest memory years, four or five.

01:24:47.824 --> 01:24:48.425
Years old.

01:24:48.425 --> 01:24:48.515
Mm-hmm.

01:24:48.755 --> 01:24:50.375
You were in California then?

01:24:51.005 --> 01:24:53.135
Yeah, uh, until I was five.

01:24:53.135 --> 01:24:55.505
I think my mom moved us to Washington when I was five.

01:24:55.715 --> 01:24:55.774
Okay.

01:24:55.774 --> 01:24:59.045
Can, can you remember California a little bit for me?

01:24:59.045 --> 01:25:01.175
And what was the circumstances of your family?

01:25:01.204 --> 01:25:01.444
Yeah.

01:25:01.444 --> 01:25:02.555
I remember a couple things.

01:25:02.555 --> 01:25:04.534
I burned my house down when I was two and a half years old.

01:25:04.534 --> 01:25:04.805
Oh, shit.

01:25:04.805 --> 01:25:05.885
I definitely remember that.

01:25:05.914 --> 01:25:06.965
Like with matches or something?

01:25:06.965 --> 01:25:07.654
Yeah, with a lighter.

01:25:07.654 --> 01:25:08.765
My mom was a smoker.

01:25:08.765 --> 01:25:11.465
I grabbed a lighter, she smoked in the house as everybody did.

01:25:11.465 --> 01:25:13.114
I'm not watching her mom.

01:25:13.279 --> 01:25:19.744
I, I grabbed her, grabbed her lighter, went into my bedroom, took all my blankets, rolled them up, put'em under my bed, and then lit them on fire.

01:25:19.895 --> 01:25:20.284
Oh, damn.

01:25:20.555 --> 01:25:21.965
I went back out to my mom.

01:25:21.965 --> 01:25:23.854
I said, mommy, come see my light.

01:25:23.854 --> 01:25:28.895
I was all proud of myself and my mommy came in my bedroom and saw that it was on fire.

01:25:29.135 --> 01:25:29.435
Right.

01:25:29.585 --> 01:25:30.965
And where's the fire extinguisher?

01:25:30.965 --> 01:25:31.984
Oh shit, I don't remember.

01:25:32.045 --> 01:25:33.694
Now my, now my mom at this point is.

01:25:34.279 --> 01:25:35.329
18 years old.

01:25:35.449 --> 01:25:36.050
Oh, damn.

01:25:36.170 --> 01:25:43.460
She has my brother Matt, who is one years old, and she has my little brother, Jeremiah, who had just come outta ICU.

01:25:43.460 --> 01:25:48.260
He was born way earlier and he's, he's, he's, he's months old if that.

01:25:48.260 --> 01:25:49.340
Your mom is 18.

01:25:49.340 --> 01:25:50.329
Her third kid.

01:25:50.329 --> 01:25:50.720
They good.

01:25:51.560 --> 01:25:52.704
And you're you four.

01:25:52.704 --> 01:25:53.810
And I just lit, I'm two and a half.

01:25:53.840 --> 01:25:54.590
Oh, you're two and a half.

01:25:54.590 --> 01:25:55.819
And I've just lit the house on fire.

01:25:55.850 --> 01:25:56.090
Oh, damn.

01:25:56.090 --> 01:25:57.470
She's got like Irish triplets.

01:25:57.500 --> 01:25:57.829
Yeah.

01:25:57.859 --> 01:25:58.970
As an 18-year-old.

01:25:58.975 --> 01:25:59.064
Yeah.

01:25:59.069 --> 01:25:59.300
Yeah.

01:25:59.300 --> 01:26:00.622
She got pregnant with me when she was 15.

01:26:00.627 --> 01:26:00.784
15.

01:26:00.784 --> 01:26:01.789
Does she not know how babies happen?

01:26:02.324 --> 01:26:02.545
No.

01:26:02.545 --> 01:26:02.546
No.

01:26:02.546 --> 01:26:04.100
I think she knows exactly how babies happen.

01:26:04.850 --> 01:26:11.510
Um, um, but anyway, uh, yeah, she got pregnant with me when she was 15.

01:26:11.510 --> 01:26:11.659
Dang.

01:26:11.659 --> 01:26:14.149
She had me when she was, uh, uh, 16.

01:26:14.204 --> 01:26:18.170
And what were, and then my brother at 17, like, she obviously didn't have a career, a job or anything.

01:26:18.170 --> 01:26:19.340
And who was your dad?

01:26:19.340 --> 01:26:22.265
My dad was, or who is your dad, I guess, or you said your dad was gone.

01:26:22.295 --> 01:26:23.090
He's dad, but yeah.

01:26:23.404 --> 01:26:26.314
My dad, you know, th this is a short version of the story.

01:26:26.314 --> 01:26:30.635
My, my dad was a very attractive, handsome, tattooed guitar player, okay?

01:26:30.725 --> 01:26:30.814
Mm-hmm.

01:26:30.814 --> 01:26:34.444
The, the beer goggle, the guitar goggles were effective on your mom, who was a haughty.

01:26:34.444 --> 01:26:35.375
15-year-old.

01:26:35.375 --> 01:26:36.335
15-year-old who was looking for a wig.

01:26:36.335 --> 01:26:37.295
How old was your dad?

01:26:37.354 --> 01:26:38.524
He was 17.

01:26:38.765 --> 01:26:39.425
Oh, that's all.

01:26:39.484 --> 01:26:39.845
Okay.

01:26:40.444 --> 01:26:44.524
Um, so, you know, the, the, the short version is my mom's mom.

01:26:44.555 --> 01:26:46.715
My grandma Eileen had schizophrenia.

01:26:46.774 --> 01:26:47.045
Mm.

01:26:47.104 --> 01:26:47.524
Okay.

01:26:47.524 --> 01:26:48.904
But it was undiagnosed.

01:26:48.904 --> 01:26:56.854
And so my mom was in a house full of chaos, mostly because my grandma was convinced that the school was calling, that the kids were doing all of these terrible things.

01:26:56.854 --> 01:27:01.295
And, and my mom and her brothers and sisters were constantly getting in trouble for shit that wasn't real.

01:27:01.564 --> 01:27:03.185
It was very confusing and stressful.

01:27:03.185 --> 01:27:05.944
My mom's mom actually was very light in that.

01:27:06.034 --> 01:27:06.635
Oh, really?

01:27:06.664 --> 01:27:08.555
Paranoia, schizophrenia kind of stuff.

01:27:08.614 --> 01:27:08.885
Yeah.

01:27:08.885 --> 01:27:10.324
And it was just grandma being weird.

01:27:10.354 --> 01:27:10.654
Yeah.

01:27:10.715 --> 01:27:12.215
You know, this was full blown.

01:27:12.215 --> 01:27:16.204
Like my mom would come home and my grandpa would sit her down and yell at all the kids.

01:27:16.204 --> 01:27:21.755
'cause my grandma would say the school would call and caught my mom for smoking and my mom, you know, I mean, just like crazy shit.

01:27:21.904 --> 01:27:22.024
Damn.

01:27:22.324 --> 01:27:25.475
And so my mom gets this bright idea, I'm gonna get outta this chaos.

01:27:25.475 --> 01:27:29.614
The way I'm gonna do that is by getting pregnant, because if I get pregnant, my parents will make me get married.

01:27:29.614 --> 01:27:33.395
'cause they were, my grandma was a hardcore Methodist and Gotcha.

01:27:33.395 --> 01:27:34.444
And that time, nobody.

01:27:34.805 --> 01:27:36.125
Got pregnant and didn't get married.

01:27:36.125 --> 01:27:37.595
So my mom found my dad.

01:27:38.015 --> 01:27:38.404
Interesting.

01:27:38.404 --> 01:27:39.395
Seemed good enough.

01:27:39.425 --> 01:27:39.694
Yeah.

01:27:40.175 --> 01:27:42.185
Got knocked up at 15 Right.

01:27:42.185 --> 01:27:46.564
And did get married at 16 before I was born and moved out just before.

01:27:46.654 --> 01:27:47.074
Mm-hmm.

01:27:47.081 --> 01:27:47.270
Yeah.

01:27:47.524 --> 01:27:48.335
And moved out.

01:27:48.335 --> 01:27:51.845
So, and, and, and from now my dad was already a drug addict.

01:27:51.845 --> 01:27:53.795
He had gotten polio as a baby.

01:27:54.034 --> 01:27:54.215
Oh, damn.

01:27:54.215 --> 01:27:58.265
He had a very small leg that he had many surgeries and treatments on.

01:27:58.265 --> 01:28:01.984
And so as a little kid, he was addicted to painkillers, but, but he was still charismatic and still charisma.

01:28:01.984 --> 01:28:02.284
Charming.

01:28:02.404 --> 01:28:02.914
Well, yeah.

01:28:02.914 --> 01:28:05.944
That was his defense mechanism to this kind of crippling.

01:28:06.180 --> 01:28:06.470
Yeah.

01:28:06.475 --> 01:28:06.784
Yeah.

01:28:06.784 --> 01:28:10.595
You know, this leg that he had was to ride motorcycles, play guitar, and singing in a band.

01:28:10.984 --> 01:28:12.005
And my mom made it up.

01:28:12.725 --> 01:28:19.805
You know, I think I, I got so funny and charming, uh, because I was like the smallest kid in every class.

01:28:19.835 --> 01:28:19.895
Yeah.

01:28:19.954 --> 01:28:25.744
Like I was four foot 11 at the end of my seventh grade year, or in my sixth grade year for that matter.

01:28:25.744 --> 01:28:28.085
And then five foot one at the end of my 10th grade year.

01:28:28.385 --> 01:28:28.685
Wow.

01:28:28.744 --> 01:28:30.034
And so I was just always.

01:28:30.364 --> 01:28:36.215
Kind of the class clown and charismatic and you know, kissing butt with the right people and whatever.

01:28:36.364 --> 01:28:39.125
And then I got tall and handsome and I didn't need all those skills.

01:28:39.125 --> 01:28:40.595
But then you had the great, the best combination.

01:28:40.595 --> 01:28:42.909
Right Now I'm charismatic, head handsome, funny, and beautiful.

01:28:42.909 --> 01:28:43.390
Yeah, exactly.

01:28:43.390 --> 01:28:44.630
Hey, you and I, the two pieces of the pod.

01:28:45.454 --> 01:28:46.895
So anyway, continue, please.

01:28:47.104 --> 01:28:49.085
But it's an interesting thing to reflect upon, right?

01:28:49.354 --> 01:28:49.625
Yeah.

01:28:49.625 --> 01:28:52.835
So they, they, so you're in this crazy situation, right?

01:28:52.840 --> 01:28:56.149
And now my, my mom and dad are in, in, and Does he have a job and stuff?

01:28:56.154 --> 01:28:57.215
I fuck if I know.

01:28:57.215 --> 01:28:58.324
I mean, they're, they're in love.

01:28:58.324 --> 01:28:59.675
Like Sid and Nancy were in love.

01:28:59.989 --> 01:29:01.744
Like, it is like fucking violence.

01:29:01.744 --> 01:29:11.164
And like my, you know, my memories are my dad punching holes and doors and my parents screaming and my mom was leaving and was her, how did she choose Seattle to move to?

01:29:11.225 --> 01:29:12.454
Well, she didn't choose Seattle.

01:29:12.454 --> 01:29:17.555
She moved to this little town in eastern Washington called Steptoe, which had a population of 14 people.

01:29:17.555 --> 01:29:17.975
Oh shit.

01:29:18.005 --> 01:29:19.835
I mean, so we went from Los Angeles Yeah.

01:29:20.404 --> 01:29:25.505
To a town that had 14 people and a truck stop called the wheel in.

01:29:25.534 --> 01:29:27.305
And how far from was it from the next town?

01:29:28.145 --> 01:29:28.835
Uh.

01:29:29.435 --> 01:29:30.935
Always 30 miles, right?

01:29:30.935 --> 01:29:32.404
I mean, from the next big town.

01:29:32.435 --> 01:29:32.704
Yeah.

01:29:32.704 --> 01:29:33.515
An hour and a half.

01:29:33.515 --> 01:29:35.104
I mean, it was, it's the middle of nowhere.

01:29:35.675 --> 01:29:36.694
The middle of nowhere.

01:29:37.414 --> 01:29:38.795
That's where's the North Dakota where I grew up?

01:29:38.795 --> 01:29:38.975
Yeah.

01:29:39.215 --> 01:29:43.864
And my, my mom moved there because my, her sister had moved to that area.

01:29:43.864 --> 01:29:43.895
I.

01:29:44.465 --> 01:29:47.944
A year or two previous to that to go to college.

01:29:47.975 --> 01:29:48.215
Okay.

01:29:48.215 --> 01:30:02.375
And so my, my, that was like her one piece of support kind of almost, or, well, her, her other brother Michael, my uncle Mike, had bought my aunt Patty this little itty-bitty house in that town because it was like, I think he bought it for like$7,000.

01:30:02.494 --> 01:30:02.854
Right, right.

01:30:03.095 --> 01:30:06.185
So that she could have a place to live while she went to college in the town.

01:30:06.185 --> 01:30:07.085
That was an hour away.

01:30:07.145 --> 01:30:07.534
Right.

01:30:07.864 --> 01:30:10.414
But she ended up marrying a guy, having kids.

01:30:10.414 --> 01:30:12.244
This house is just sitting there and it's just sitting there.

01:30:12.244 --> 01:30:14.824
My mom decides, she's like a thief in the night.

01:30:14.824 --> 01:30:17.135
She, she basic, she'd be arrested if she did this today.

01:30:17.135 --> 01:30:19.145
She kidnaps us from California.

01:30:19.595 --> 01:30:25.324
Doesn't tell anybody where she's going except for my, my, my uncle and my grandparents Doesn't tell anyone.

01:30:25.324 --> 01:30:26.015
In my dad's family.

01:30:26.015 --> 01:30:28.444
Certainly doesn't tell my dad because she's just.

01:30:28.454 --> 01:30:31.425
Tired of living in this chaos and this violence.

01:30:31.425 --> 01:30:31.426
Yeah.

01:30:31.430 --> 01:30:31.539
Yeah.

01:30:31.539 --> 01:30:37.154
And so she thinks at the time this is the best bet for, although if she's been a subject to a domestic violence and stuff Yeah.

01:30:37.154 --> 01:30:37.784
I'll defend her.

01:30:37.784 --> 01:30:38.024
Right.

01:30:38.024 --> 01:30:38.895
To grab you guys.

01:30:38.939 --> 01:30:39.060
Absolutely.

01:30:39.060 --> 01:30:39.819
And get you the hell out there.

01:30:40.060 --> 01:30:40.140
Absolutely.

01:30:40.145 --> 01:30:40.725
Absolutely.

01:30:40.725 --> 01:30:40.726
Any day.

01:30:40.731 --> 01:30:41.324
Absolutely.

01:30:41.774 --> 01:30:45.494
She, you know, this is kind of part of what I was talking about before, about being able to go back in time.

01:30:45.494 --> 01:30:50.444
When I look at it as a young man, you know, to me I'm like, why did you take us away from our family?

01:30:50.444 --> 01:30:53.114
I never got to see my, you know, it was a very negative, bad thing.

01:30:53.114 --> 01:30:53.505
Right.

01:30:53.505 --> 01:30:57.885
But when you go think about what a 18, well now my mom was 20 when she did this.

01:30:57.885 --> 01:30:57.975
Right?

01:30:58.034 --> 01:31:07.664
Because I remember when my mom turned 21 because that little truck stop in that town she worked at, and I remember her saying, oh man, when I turned 21, I'll finally be able to cocktail waitress.

01:31:07.664 --> 01:31:09.885
I can go to the bar and I can make more money in tips.

01:31:09.885 --> 01:31:10.064
Right.

01:31:10.244 --> 01:31:10.939
I remember that.

01:31:10.965 --> 01:31:11.324
Right.

01:31:11.385 --> 01:31:13.034
Who remembers their mom turning 21?

01:31:13.515 --> 01:31:16.100
Anyway, but, um, not very many people.

01:31:16.744 --> 01:31:19.505
But as an older person, I can say, what would I do?

01:31:19.505 --> 01:31:19.835
Yeah.

01:31:19.864 --> 01:31:21.489
You know, like, I want to protect my kids.

01:31:21.529 --> 01:31:22.930
I think she did the best could for She did the best she could.

01:31:23.255 --> 01:31:23.614
Yeah.

01:31:23.614 --> 01:31:25.085
And I, and I appreciate that.

01:31:25.085 --> 01:31:26.585
You know, I don't, so did you live there a long time?

01:31:26.614 --> 01:31:32.734
We, I ended up, we lived in Washington for the rest of my life until I moved to LA to pursue my music career at 21.

01:31:32.944 --> 01:31:33.454
Dang.

01:31:33.694 --> 01:31:40.114
And then did you like go to college or anything after high school or I assume you went I had, I had those coffee shops in Pullman.

01:31:40.204 --> 01:31:40.744
Oh, right.

01:31:40.744 --> 01:31:41.585
That was right, right.

01:31:41.585 --> 01:31:42.305
That was in Pullman.

01:31:42.814 --> 01:31:43.925
That was, that was the college town.

01:31:43.984 --> 01:31:44.404
Yeah.

01:31:44.404 --> 01:31:44.405
Yeah.

01:31:44.411 --> 01:31:47.824
That my, that my aunt was going to and my mom eventually moved us to.

01:31:47.885 --> 01:31:53.734
And were you like the, the newspaper guy when you were 14 and all these other entrepreneurial things?

01:31:54.305 --> 01:31:54.368
No, from fifth grade.

01:31:54.784 --> 01:31:55.324
Yeah.

01:31:55.329 --> 01:31:56.229
11, sorry.

01:31:56.229 --> 01:31:57.515
Was learning papers from fifth or 10?

01:31:57.515 --> 01:31:58.145
No, third grade.

01:31:58.145 --> 01:31:58.475
Third grade.

01:31:59.255 --> 01:32:00.064
Uh, yeah.

01:32:00.064 --> 01:32:02.194
I had both a afternoon route and a morning route.

01:32:03.060 --> 01:32:04.385
There's, there's a video.

01:32:04.385 --> 01:32:14.225
You could find it on light of me talking about my paper routes and how I schemed everybody and built all, I built a paper route empire, um, for two newspapers on all these kids routes.

01:32:14.225 --> 01:32:16.805
But, um, uh, yeah, paper routes were definitely interesting.

01:32:16.805 --> 01:32:30.244
My first bit of income and as a poor kid who had nothing, right, absolutely nothing to be able to find a way to make money myself, I mean, that really gave me a taste of what it could be like to be in charge of your income, you know?

01:32:30.244 --> 01:32:35.555
And that's why I think entrepreneurship became so interesting to me because I was in control of it.

01:32:35.555 --> 01:32:47.225
Man, what a fascinating journey of like, coming from this kind of conservative background, kind of rejecting faith in church, coming back around, rejecting again in a different way.

01:32:47.284 --> 01:32:50.675
And, um, just finding grace for.

01:32:51.590 --> 01:32:56.479
You know, your, your, especially your mother, it seems like, and, and, and my father, your siblings and your father.

01:32:56.569 --> 01:32:56.720
Mm-hmm.

01:32:57.170 --> 01:32:57.590
You know?

01:32:57.920 --> 01:32:58.130
Yeah.

01:32:58.130 --> 01:33:02.149
And how did, how did that, but you eventually re reconnected with him, right?

01:33:02.149 --> 01:33:07.520
'cause you went back and forth a little bit from California to Washington, or just, I mean, we summers a little bit, or I did.

01:33:07.609 --> 01:33:07.819
Yeah.

01:33:07.819 --> 01:33:12.979
We, we, we were always connected in some way.

01:33:13.039 --> 01:33:23.479
Like, um, one thing my mom did, which may sound weird, is that even though she left him right, and she, she, she moved us as far away from him as she possibly could, right.

01:33:24.635 --> 01:33:26.524
She never talked bad about him.

01:33:26.524 --> 01:33:26.614
Right.

01:33:26.614 --> 01:33:28.520
But I could tell that she didn't like him him.

01:33:28.715 --> 01:33:39.515
But I think that her hope, and my hope as a kid was that some, at some point he would turn his shit around and he would be someone that we could count on, or at least a relationship, father relationship, have a relationship with.

01:33:39.515 --> 01:33:46.475
And I know that she did that with a great amount of hesitation and pain, but she would allow us to call him.

01:33:46.475 --> 01:33:49.265
She would try and arrange for us to see him quite often.

01:33:49.265 --> 01:33:51.274
That would end in violence, unfortunately.

01:33:51.814 --> 01:33:56.194
Um, but um, but in seventh grade I did decide to go live with him for a year.

01:33:56.255 --> 01:33:56.614
Oh dang.

01:33:56.614 --> 01:33:57.725
And it was terrible.

01:33:58.385 --> 01:34:01.265
It was, it was mostly you did it because you just wanted to have a relationship with Dad.

01:34:01.265 --> 01:34:02.104
I just wanted my dad.

01:34:02.164 --> 01:34:02.704
Yeah.

01:34:02.704 --> 01:34:02.765
Yeah.

01:34:02.765 --> 01:34:03.119
I get it.

01:34:03.119 --> 01:34:06.274
Every kid, I can't even imagine because my dad was just always right there.

01:34:06.274 --> 01:34:06.454
Yeah.

01:34:06.454 --> 01:34:07.145
He's a pain in my ass.

01:34:07.175 --> 01:34:07.324
Yeah.

01:34:07.324 --> 01:34:09.784
You know, but to be absent that, I can't imagine that either.

01:34:10.020 --> 01:34:10.439
Yeah.

01:34:10.500 --> 01:34:13.560
I just, I just wanted my dad and it was not good.

01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:14.250
It was not good.

01:34:15.029 --> 01:34:15.779
It was not good.

01:34:16.529 --> 01:34:18.630
Uh, he, he drank the whole time.

01:34:18.630 --> 01:34:19.470
He never worked.

01:34:19.470 --> 01:34:20.850
He fought with my stepmom.

01:34:20.850 --> 01:34:22.140
He punched holes in walls.

01:34:22.140 --> 01:34:23.039
How did he stay alive?

01:34:23.039 --> 01:34:27.300
Like was, was he on Yeah, he didn't stay alive very long, but he got, he got on social security Okay.

01:34:27.300 --> 01:34:30.390
Disability, because his, his liver damage was so bad.

01:34:30.810 --> 01:34:31.199
Right.

01:34:31.770 --> 01:34:34.409
Sorry, I have this self-inflicted medical thing.

01:34:34.920 --> 01:34:35.635
Yeah, I know.

01:34:35.789 --> 01:34:36.449
I know.

01:34:36.810 --> 01:34:38.489
And then he lived off his wife, you know.

01:34:38.489 --> 01:34:38.699
Right.

01:34:38.760 --> 01:34:40.140
Um, she was a bank teller.

01:34:40.140 --> 01:34:42.510
I mean, she wasn't, she didn't, she wasn't rich or anything.

01:34:42.510 --> 01:34:42.990
Right, right.

01:34:42.996 --> 01:34:46.289
I mean, they were solidly lower middle class.

01:34:46.439 --> 01:34:46.710
Right.

01:34:47.189 --> 01:34:52.020
Um, and, and you know, that's, they, they survived.

01:34:52.109 --> 01:34:52.409
Yeah.

01:34:52.779 --> 01:34:55.300
Um, my dad was not very kind to her either.

01:34:55.300 --> 01:34:58.449
He stole her money and, and, you know, for his drugs.

01:34:58.600 --> 01:34:59.829
Goes, goes, where's your mom now?

01:35:00.279 --> 01:35:00.970
My mom's in Denver.

01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:01.449
Okay.

01:35:01.869 --> 01:35:04.180
She moved there after my first son was born.

01:35:04.239 --> 01:35:04.510
Right.

01:35:04.630 --> 01:35:04.869
Right.

01:35:04.869 --> 01:35:05.350
After.

01:35:05.890 --> 01:35:07.510
Um, and that's a great story too.

01:35:07.510 --> 01:35:12.880
Too long for this podcast, but I'll just say that my mother showed through her actions, never her words.

01:35:12.880 --> 01:35:20.859
My mom never came to me and apologized per se, but I know how that my mom is remorseful about our lives.

01:35:21.024 --> 01:35:22.810
'cause'cause later my mom would give us up.

01:35:22.810 --> 01:35:24.550
She, we ended up in foster care.

01:35:24.579 --> 01:35:24.729
Oh dang.

01:35:24.729 --> 01:35:27.189
And we would go back and live with our family in California.

01:35:27.220 --> 01:35:27.369
Oh wow.

01:35:27.909 --> 01:35:30.460
Um, she struggled a lot.

01:35:30.489 --> 01:35:33.250
My mom, my mom was, she spoke with addiction too, or a alcohol, not, not addiction.

01:35:33.250 --> 01:35:34.149
Mental health problems.

01:35:34.149 --> 01:35:34.869
Mental health too.

01:35:34.869 --> 01:35:34.871
Gotcha.

01:35:34.876 --> 01:35:35.345
Yeah, definitely.

01:35:35.470 --> 01:35:36.279
Mental health problems.

01:35:36.310 --> 01:35:36.399
Yep.

01:35:36.609 --> 01:35:42.744
And, and, um, uh, uh, and she, I.

01:35:43.159 --> 01:35:46.760
It was tough, you know, it wasn't like my mom left my dad and then things were rosy.

01:35:47.085 --> 01:35:47.244
Right.

01:35:47.420 --> 01:35:50.479
It was my mom left my dad, and then we lived in poverty.

01:35:50.484 --> 01:35:51.800
The chaos continued for a long time.

01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:52.340
Yes, exactly.

01:35:52.340 --> 01:35:54.800
And my mom suffered and my dad made things hard.

01:35:55.100 --> 01:35:58.430
My dad called the CPS and would tell them my mom was abusing us.

01:35:58.460 --> 01:36:02.810
Were you like a songwriter too, as this uh, 16-year-old kid that wants to go to la?

01:36:02.810 --> 01:36:05.090
When I left California, I started writing songs.

01:36:05.119 --> 01:36:05.449
Okay.

01:36:05.510 --> 01:36:06.649
When I was in California.

01:36:06.649 --> 01:36:11.029
'cause my dad was a guitar player and singer, and so he kind of taught, taught me a little bit and yeah.

01:36:11.029 --> 01:36:14.000
That songwriting kind of, you know, they say it's an outlet.

01:36:14.000 --> 01:36:17.510
I mean, it seems like the foundation for a songwriting, uh, career, right?

01:36:17.510 --> 01:36:18.050
Yes, absolutely.

01:36:18.050 --> 01:36:19.069
Absolutely.

01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:28.880
But yeah, my mom struggled and, um, and so by the time my wife was pregnant with our first son, um, we still didn't have a good relationship.

01:36:28.939 --> 01:36:29.000
Hmm.

01:36:29.029 --> 01:36:31.279
But she told me, I'm gonna come to Denver, whatever.

01:36:31.310 --> 01:36:33.140
She came to Denver and.

01:36:34.130 --> 01:36:36.800
Committed herself to me, stuck it out, my son and my family.

01:36:36.859 --> 01:36:39.050
Well, you are the best thing she's got going or maybe, yeah.

01:36:39.140 --> 01:36:40.520
You got brothers still?

01:36:41.029 --> 01:36:42.409
Uh, one brother passed away.

01:36:42.680 --> 01:36:43.579
Yeah, about eight years ago.

01:36:43.579 --> 01:36:46.310
My other brother, Jay, he just moved back here actually from Seattle.

01:36:46.310 --> 01:36:46.340
Okay.

01:36:46.369 --> 01:36:47.359
So now we're all here.

01:36:47.930 --> 01:36:49.729
Um, does he have kids too or He does have a daughter.

01:36:49.729 --> 01:36:50.720
She's back in Seattle.

01:36:50.750 --> 01:36:51.109
Yeah.

01:36:51.560 --> 01:37:04.520
Um, but yeah, my mom showed her commitment to me and my family and has been with us for 18 years and I'm happy to say I can count on my mom for anything.

01:37:04.850 --> 01:37:05.270
That's cool.

01:37:05.300 --> 01:37:11.899
You know, she's one, she's, it's kind of crazy to say and she might not believe it, but, um, you know, she's one of my best friends.

01:37:11.899 --> 01:37:12.109
Yeah.

01:37:12.619 --> 01:37:13.399
Uh, and I.

01:37:13.864 --> 01:37:15.994
If you need somebody, she's your first phone number.

01:37:16.055 --> 01:37:16.534
Fuck man.

01:37:16.534 --> 01:37:17.824
Sometimes I don't even have to call her.

01:37:17.824 --> 01:37:19.385
She's just like, Hey, I know you have this.

01:37:19.385 --> 01:37:19.925
I'm showing it.

01:37:20.045 --> 01:37:20.255
Yeah.

01:37:20.314 --> 01:37:21.305
I mean, it's amazing.

01:37:21.305 --> 01:37:32.675
And, and this is what I tell on my talk, the time traveler talk that I do about, um, as, as long as there's life, there's hope and there's debate on who originally said that, but it's often a's, uh, attributed to the Dalai Lama.

01:37:32.975 --> 01:37:34.385
But where there's life, there's hope.

01:37:34.385 --> 01:37:41.824
And so when people are talking to me about similar situations, what they've been in, and they say things to me like, oh, it's unforgivable.

01:37:41.824 --> 01:37:46.835
I would never forgive my mom, or I would never forgive my brother, you know, outside of like some kind of weird sexual crime or something.

01:37:46.835 --> 01:37:46.925
Right.

01:37:46.925 --> 01:37:49.265
I said, don't, don't be so quick to say that.

01:37:49.354 --> 01:37:49.685
Yeah.

01:37:49.864 --> 01:37:51.545
Because where there's life, there's hope.

01:37:51.875 --> 01:37:59.435
And so long as my mom was alive and my brother was alive, I, I believed that there was always a chance for some kind of reconciliation.

01:37:59.494 --> 01:38:00.125
That's really cool.

01:38:00.244 --> 01:38:03.484
And, um, I got, I got the best of it from both my brother and my mom.

01:38:03.965 --> 01:38:04.145
Yeah.

01:38:04.145 --> 01:38:04.475
Sounds like it.

01:38:04.475 --> 01:38:04.954
It's awesome.

01:38:05.375 --> 01:38:06.095
That's really cool.

01:38:06.175 --> 01:38:08.425
Uh, let me ask about your kids just a little bit.

01:38:08.454 --> 01:38:08.664
Mm-hmm.

01:38:08.965 --> 01:38:10.284
Uh, they're 16 and 18 now.

01:38:10.435 --> 01:38:10.734
Mm-hmm.

01:38:11.215 --> 01:38:18.234
Um, one of my, uh, things on the local experiences I would like to do, uh, one word descriptions of the children.

01:38:18.475 --> 01:38:18.984
Okay.

01:38:19.225 --> 01:38:19.975
Of each.

01:38:19.975 --> 01:38:20.215
Yeah.

01:38:20.274 --> 01:38:21.475
So would you, would you care to.

01:38:21.789 --> 01:38:25.810
Uh, endure that challenge of, uh, mentioning a Oh yeah.

01:38:25.810 --> 01:38:30.399
Maybe your older child by name and then giving a one word description and expand beyond that.

01:38:30.609 --> 01:38:31.149
Yes.

01:38:31.630 --> 01:38:33.640
Um, Henry, serious.

01:38:33.670 --> 01:38:34.689
Serious, yes.

01:38:34.720 --> 01:38:35.529
Henry the serious.

01:38:35.529 --> 01:38:35.949
Yes.

01:38:35.949 --> 01:38:37.420
Benjamin hilarious.

01:38:37.479 --> 01:38:38.560
Benjamin hilarious.

01:38:38.560 --> 01:38:43.060
That's funny that there's so, uh, diabolically opposed, yes.

01:38:44.229 --> 01:38:47.770
Diametrically opposed is actually, although diabolically might be, yeah.

01:38:47.979 --> 01:38:51.765
That was God doing that to you, putting them so diabolically opposed to each other.

01:38:51.770 --> 01:38:51.850
Yeah.

01:38:52.029 --> 01:38:59.020
I mean, as a sociologist right, we talk about nature and nurture and my kids had both, you know, me and their mom, uh, sure.

01:38:59.199 --> 01:39:04.989
Or my wife growing up and, and uh, you know, same circumstances and everything, but they are very different.

01:39:05.050 --> 01:39:05.409
Um, yeah.

01:39:05.409 --> 01:39:12.159
Boys, but, but deeply appreciative and best friends with each other, you know, like, um, but very different personalities.

01:39:12.189 --> 01:39:13.539
They're entering the world.

01:39:13.539 --> 01:39:13.600
I.

01:39:14.064 --> 01:39:17.125
The adult world at an interesting time with Yeah.

01:39:17.244 --> 01:39:22.404
AI making huge strides and maybe a little, like all the coders are already like that.

01:39:22.404 --> 01:39:23.274
Learn to code.

01:39:23.305 --> 01:39:23.604
Yeah.

01:39:23.694 --> 01:39:24.954
Uh, coal miner.

01:39:25.015 --> 01:39:25.314
Yeah.

01:39:25.404 --> 01:39:26.635
Doesn't really work anymore.

01:39:27.295 --> 01:39:35.125
Um, what, like, what do you, what's your encouragement, but both for them and for other young people in there, you know, 16 to 20.

01:39:35.770 --> 01:39:41.680
Figuring out what they're gonna set their pointer toward as it relates to ai or just life in general as it relates to just life in general.

01:39:41.710 --> 01:39:43.149
Well, like it's an interesting time though.

01:39:43.210 --> 01:39:43.390
Yeah.

01:39:43.390 --> 01:39:45.159
Because of so much ai, it's gonna be, yeah.

01:39:45.189 --> 01:39:48.069
I think probably disruptive to a lot of Yeah.

01:39:48.100 --> 01:39:48.729
Career paths.

01:39:48.760 --> 01:39:50.979
You know, I could give two shits about ai.

01:39:50.979 --> 01:39:52.960
I could give two shits about video games.

01:39:52.960 --> 01:39:53.199
All right.

01:39:53.199 --> 01:39:55.060
I give two shits about violence on tv.

01:39:55.194 --> 01:40:01.869
I'm just not a big subscriber to the idea that all of these things are going to shape entirely the direction of your children.

01:40:02.350 --> 01:40:04.960
Um, I,'cause we've seen this throughout history, right?

01:40:04.960 --> 01:40:05.050
Sure.

01:40:05.050 --> 01:40:07.734
Records and music and pot and all sorts of stuff.

01:40:07.734 --> 01:40:07.854
Yeah.

01:40:07.854 --> 01:40:12.609
I mean, every generation has parents who are worried that their kids are gonna be fucked up by one thing or the other.

01:40:12.609 --> 01:40:15.699
So I, I've tried not to put too much emphasis on that.

01:40:16.239 --> 01:40:33.670
Um, the thing I do put emphasis on with my kids, and I think maybe it's the difference between my kids and other kids, or the reason why I'm not worried about all this other shit is because I've always encouraged my kids to follow their dreams and to think about a life and a career that is your passion.

01:40:33.670 --> 01:40:34.149
And so.

01:40:34.914 --> 01:40:37.494
We, we say in our family is there's no plan B.

01:40:38.064 --> 01:40:41.364
So whatever it was that you said, you want, you, you know how this is.

01:40:41.364 --> 01:40:41.425
Yeah.

01:40:41.425 --> 01:40:42.805
When you, I don't know if you have kids.

01:40:42.805 --> 01:40:43.255
Do you have kids?

01:40:43.255 --> 01:40:43.314
No.

01:40:43.314 --> 01:40:43.645
Kids?

01:40:43.645 --> 01:40:43.734
No.

01:40:43.734 --> 01:40:43.975
Okay.

01:40:44.305 --> 01:40:45.774
Well, you've probably heard these stories.

01:40:45.774 --> 01:40:49.404
You know when a kid's little and in kindergarten and the teacher says, what do you want to be when you grow up?

01:40:49.404 --> 01:40:49.734
Sure.

01:40:49.734 --> 01:40:52.885
And all the parents are around in a circle eagerly waiting to see what they say.

01:40:52.885 --> 01:40:53.185
You know?

01:40:53.215 --> 01:40:58.164
Molly raises her hand astronaut and says, president Astronaut, everyone says, oh, yes, you can do that.

01:40:58.164 --> 01:40:58.885
You can do that.

01:40:59.095 --> 01:40:59.335
Right.

01:40:59.425 --> 01:41:05.604
By third grade, they're starting to question that, and by fifth or sixth grade, they're definitely telling, well, you might be an astronaut, but you should have a plan B.

01:41:05.755 --> 01:41:05.845
Right.

01:41:05.845 --> 01:41:07.645
I said, what are you gonna fall back on?

01:41:07.645 --> 01:41:08.005
Right?

01:41:08.244 --> 01:41:08.305
Yeah.

01:41:08.305 --> 01:41:09.564
And I hated that.

01:41:09.625 --> 01:41:10.045
Interesting.

01:41:10.045 --> 01:41:11.454
I hated that as a kid.

01:41:11.755 --> 01:41:16.944
I, not that my mother ever did that to me, but everybody else questioned me because I wanted to be a rock star.

01:41:16.944 --> 01:41:18.385
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

01:41:18.385 --> 01:41:18.475
Sure.

01:41:18.475 --> 01:41:19.645
I wanted to be a writer.

01:41:19.645 --> 01:41:19.914
You know?

01:41:19.914 --> 01:41:27.654
I had these things that I felt very passionately about, and by the time I did return to Denver to go to college, it wasn't.

01:41:27.670 --> 01:41:29.920
Because I thought that was the next best thing for me.

01:41:29.920 --> 01:41:39.039
The truth is, I believed everybody who had told me that because my coffee shops had failed, my skateboard shop had failed, and my music career had failed, that I wasn't cut out for entrepreneurship.

01:41:39.039 --> 01:41:42.279
And what I needed to do was go to college and get a real job like everybody else.

01:41:42.279 --> 01:41:42.340
Hmm.

01:41:42.789 --> 01:41:49.300
And the funny thing is, is within, you know, a month of going to real college like everybody else, I made more money than I ever made in my life.

01:41:49.300 --> 01:41:49.600
Right.

01:41:49.630 --> 01:41:51.819
Because I decided to be an entrepreneur again.

01:41:51.819 --> 01:41:52.029
Right.

01:41:52.119 --> 01:41:52.449
Fascinating.

01:41:52.449 --> 01:41:55.060
So in my family, we always talk about no plan B.

01:41:55.300 --> 01:41:55.449
Yeah.

01:41:55.449 --> 01:42:00.520
And so when my kids have had these dreams of what they want to do, we encourage them to do that.

01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:04.510
And what that does is it gives'em a focus that's different from everybody else's.

01:42:05.055 --> 01:42:09.135
Where AI and video games and violent movies might become a distraction.

01:42:09.135 --> 01:42:17.354
My kids know what they wanna do and they know what the risk and consequences are from diverging from that path, which is, you don't get to do what you wanna do.

01:42:17.354 --> 01:42:22.814
If you let all these other things get in the way, including drugs and alcohol, well, you change what you want to do probably, and you always can change it too.

01:42:22.814 --> 01:42:24.704
Yeah, they definitely had changes.

01:42:24.704 --> 01:42:33.015
But you know, my son Henry, the Sirius, which is a very, a very good name for him, uh, is going to be a professional baseball player.

01:42:33.074 --> 01:42:33.465
Oh.

01:42:33.585 --> 01:42:37.845
And he has known that for almost his entire life.

01:42:37.845 --> 01:42:37.904
Hmm.

01:42:38.685 --> 01:42:39.795
And does he meet.

01:42:40.270 --> 01:42:40.720
Does he what?

01:42:40.810 --> 01:42:41.350
Eat meat.

01:42:41.649 --> 01:42:42.159
He does eat.

01:42:42.520 --> 01:42:42.970
Okay, good.

01:42:43.210 --> 01:42:43.840
Keep eating meat.

01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:47.050
Henry, although, although for a while there, he was vegetarian when I first started.

01:42:47.079 --> 01:42:52.840
'cause Henry the serious is also Henry the daddy's boy, which I, I proudly say, but when I went vegetarian that's fair.

01:42:52.840 --> 01:42:53.739
He's like, I'll do it too.

01:42:53.739 --> 01:42:55.539
And so for five years he was, oh, wow.

01:42:55.539 --> 01:42:57.939
And then he started saying, look, dad, I'm not as big as the other kids.

01:42:57.939 --> 01:42:59.229
I think I need to start eating meat.

01:42:59.229 --> 01:43:00.399
I said, you do whatever you want.

01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:00.939
I, I don't care.

01:43:00.939 --> 01:43:02.350
I never made you be a vegetarian.

01:43:03.010 --> 01:43:09.069
Um, but anyway, um, and so, you know, he's, he, he played var varsity baseball his last two years of high school.

01:43:09.069 --> 01:43:10.810
He's a team captain on his club team.

01:43:10.810 --> 01:43:13.569
He's just starting shortstop and now he has a college scholarship.

01:43:13.569 --> 01:43:13.810
Nice.

01:43:13.869 --> 01:43:17.560
And he's going to Seattle, uh, this summer to go play college baseball.

01:43:18.399 --> 01:43:19.930
Um, so that, that's it.

01:43:19.930 --> 01:43:22.810
So I don't ever tell Henry, oh, well, you better have a backup player.

01:43:22.810 --> 01:43:23.800
Well, what if, what if he doesn't?

01:43:23.814 --> 01:43:25.704
Doesn't, then he just navigates.

01:43:25.704 --> 01:43:25.914
Right.

01:43:25.914 --> 01:43:26.244
Yeah.

01:43:26.244 --> 01:43:27.715
It doesn't mean he is a failure.

01:43:27.925 --> 01:43:29.935
Doesn't, like he said, I can get my PhD anytime.

01:43:29.935 --> 01:43:30.024
Right.

01:43:30.024 --> 01:43:31.194
He can go back to school anytime.

01:43:31.585 --> 01:43:33.505
But you can only be a baseball player for Right.

01:43:33.534 --> 01:43:34.675
So push hard at that.

01:43:34.675 --> 01:43:35.154
That's right.

01:43:35.154 --> 01:43:36.234
If your window is open.

01:43:36.234 --> 01:43:36.715
That's right.

01:43:36.774 --> 01:43:43.015
And then, and then Benjamin, the hilarious is extremely talented, downhill skier and downhill mountain.

01:43:43.015 --> 01:43:43.555
Dang breaker.

01:43:44.095 --> 01:43:44.215
Oh dang.

01:43:44.215 --> 01:43:45.954
And, uh, extremely talented.

01:43:45.954 --> 01:43:47.664
Something that doesn't require fear.

01:43:47.725 --> 01:43:48.564
Might be a good job.

01:43:48.595 --> 01:43:50.154
Well, he has fear, thank God.

01:43:50.215 --> 01:43:50.994
Well, just enough.

01:43:50.994 --> 01:43:51.864
Just enough though.

01:43:51.864 --> 01:43:52.045
Right.

01:43:52.045 --> 01:43:53.515
He's a smart, he's smart.

01:43:54.055 --> 01:43:57.295
Um, but he's dedicated and passionate and so that's his plan.

01:43:57.385 --> 01:43:57.715
Interesting.

01:43:57.715 --> 01:44:00.819
He wants to, he wants to, um, ride mountain bikes in college.

01:44:00.819 --> 01:44:02.935
He wants to get a scholarship just like his brother.

01:44:03.265 --> 01:44:08.875
Um, and, uh, and he wants to be outdoors and, and the only place, other place he wants to go is Canada.

01:44:08.965 --> 01:44:09.265
Right.

01:44:09.265 --> 01:44:22.194
But his plan for that is to find a Canadian woman to marry so Well, you know, but, but um, there might be quite a few of those in the market in the near future that are like, Hey, can you get me into America if anyone still wants to come here?

01:44:22.454 --> 01:44:27.795
Oh, before I change topics, sometimes we like to ooh, hit, uh, current events.

01:44:27.795 --> 01:44:28.005
Sure.

01:44:28.095 --> 01:44:31.664
Uh, and we've got like the, the LA riots.

01:44:31.664 --> 01:44:31.755
Mm-hmm.

01:44:32.085 --> 01:44:34.845
Uh, part four or whatever it is Yeah.

01:44:34.845 --> 01:44:36.645
By now going on like right now.

01:44:36.704 --> 01:44:37.034
Yeah.

01:44:37.215 --> 01:44:39.225
Um, as a libertarian.

01:44:39.225 --> 01:44:39.465
Yeah.

01:44:39.494 --> 01:44:46.274
Kind of leaning, uh, probably a, not leaning full on, I would suspect a Trump skeptic, but also a Gavin Newsom non-fan.

01:44:46.725 --> 01:44:56.625
Like what do you think about this whole, like, bitch fight over the like military and like federal versus state powers and, and what's going on with all that, all theater.

01:44:57.069 --> 01:44:57.340
Yeah.

01:44:57.340 --> 01:44:58.029
South Theater.

01:44:58.029 --> 01:44:58.659
It's a puppet show.

01:44:58.720 --> 01:44:59.680
It's a puppet show.

01:44:59.770 --> 01:44:59.949
Yeah.

01:45:00.159 --> 01:45:04.060
I mean, that's not to say that people aren't angry and suffering for good reason, andwhatever suffering.

01:45:04.060 --> 01:45:04.720
Absolutely.

01:45:04.720 --> 01:45:06.880
And they have a right to get out in the streets and protest.

01:45:06.880 --> 01:45:16.600
I think the protests turn now from not, uh, just so much a, uh, an examination of immigrant rights and also in an examination of hearings to the law.

01:45:16.600 --> 01:45:16.845
That's right.

01:45:16.845 --> 01:45:17.006
That's right.

01:45:17.011 --> 01:45:19.480
I think on both sides there are questions, answer, right.

01:45:19.480 --> 01:45:20.859
What is due process in this situation, right?

01:45:20.859 --> 01:45:24.159
And what does it mean to break into a country because that also happens.

01:45:24.159 --> 01:45:27.430
What due process is appropriate if you just come in and set up?

01:45:28.569 --> 01:45:28.572
That's right.

01:45:28.577 --> 01:45:29.050
That's right.

01:45:29.050 --> 01:45:39.399
But I think what people are pissed off about now, myself included, is the milit militarization of the whole thing and the test that Trump has created as to what people will tolerate.

01:45:39.399 --> 01:45:42.369
And I mean, I am 47 years old.

01:45:42.579 --> 01:45:43.479
I have never Are you really?

01:45:43.539 --> 01:45:43.960
Oh yeah.

01:45:43.960 --> 01:45:44.770
I thought you were younger than that.

01:45:44.770 --> 01:45:45.251
Yeah, yeah.

01:45:45.310 --> 01:45:46.659
Oil of Alay twice a day.

01:45:46.689 --> 01:45:46.960
Yeah.

01:45:46.965 --> 01:45:47.005
Yeah.

01:45:47.260 --> 01:45:53.470
Um, but I have never seen the Marines come into a city and try and force.

01:45:53.845 --> 01:45:56.125
Uh, or actually try and push back protestors.

01:45:56.125 --> 01:45:56.215
Right.

01:45:56.215 --> 01:45:57.265
To me, that's crazy.

01:45:57.685 --> 01:46:00.234
And to me that's, that, that's crossed, that's theater.

01:46:00.265 --> 01:46:02.095
I mean, there's been a, like we got plenty of National Guard.

01:46:02.095 --> 01:46:03.329
We don't need to figure, bring a number.

01:46:03.329 --> 01:46:04.164
We don't even need the National Guard.

01:46:04.164 --> 01:46:06.984
I mean, I watched, I watched the mayor's press conference last night.

01:46:06.984 --> 01:46:08.095
It was pretty hairy.

01:46:08.095 --> 01:46:10.074
Like they didn't have a handle on it for sure.

01:46:10.074 --> 01:46:17.694
Well, but those, the National Guard are only protecting two federal buildings in la They're not actually out there on the, on the line with the police officers.

01:46:17.904 --> 01:46:18.204
Yeah.

01:46:18.204 --> 01:46:19.885
So, so it's theater, right?

01:46:19.885 --> 01:46:20.635
It is, it's total.

01:46:20.635 --> 01:46:22.345
If that's really the case, it's total theater.

01:46:22.345 --> 01:46:22.795
But I don't know if.

01:46:23.140 --> 01:46:24.069
Like, are you right about that?

01:46:24.069 --> 01:46:24.640
Are you right about that?

01:46:24.640 --> 01:46:25.164
There's no media.

01:46:25.345 --> 01:46:25.845
You can't know.

01:46:25.845 --> 01:46:26.949
But here's the fucking thing, right?

01:46:26.949 --> 01:46:29.500
Like my, as a libertarian, I don't believe in borders.

01:46:29.710 --> 01:46:31.659
You know, like, I mean Oh, that far Libertarian.

01:46:31.659 --> 01:46:31.899
Yeah.

01:46:31.899 --> 01:46:34.359
I mean, like, I, I believe people are people, right?

01:46:34.359 --> 01:46:36.760
And they de they deserve the individual respect.

01:46:36.760 --> 01:46:37.090
Yeah.

01:46:37.090 --> 01:46:37.091
Yeah.

01:46:37.300 --> 01:46:42.444
And I think, anyway, so then there should be nation states, so like Bitcoin for everybody, and just like Bitcoin for everybody.

01:46:42.489 --> 01:46:43.869
But I'm not a big Bitcoin guy either.

01:46:43.869 --> 01:46:46.659
I sold mine too, because I just couldn't find any fucking utility in it.

01:46:46.659 --> 01:46:47.079
Right?

01:46:47.079 --> 01:46:47.081
Right.

01:46:47.086 --> 01:46:51.130
And I made a lot of money in crypto, but I'm just like, when does this actually do something?

01:46:51.369 --> 01:46:51.609
Right?

01:46:51.609 --> 01:46:55.180
But with regard to people like, no, I believe in nations, right?

01:46:55.180 --> 01:46:58.479
I believe in cultures, I believe in, in, in laws, right?

01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:00.819
I believe that we can get in agreement about those things.

01:47:00.970 --> 01:47:05.770
I also believe that somebody can come here and raise their hand and say, I'm willing to be in agreement of those things.

01:47:05.890 --> 01:47:06.010
Yeah.

01:47:06.010 --> 01:47:12.069
What I don't believe in is that somebody can come here and then say, I'm in agreement of those things so long as you pay for me to come here.

01:47:12.100 --> 01:47:12.369
Right?

01:47:12.430 --> 01:47:14.020
Or pay for, for me, whatever.

01:47:14.020 --> 01:47:15.939
You know, I'm, I'm a, well, I think as a, as a.

01:47:16.159 --> 01:47:18.680
Libertarian leaning, but also free market economist.

01:47:18.710 --> 01:47:21.050
Like I love the idea of the gold card.

01:47:21.170 --> 01:47:21.529
Sure.

01:47:21.619 --> 01:47:22.699
Like the gold green card.

01:47:22.729 --> 01:47:22.970
Yeah.

01:47:23.119 --> 01:47:28.460
Like it should be like a, to me it should be like if it should be just as important.

01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:30.670
To become a part of America Yeah.

01:47:30.670 --> 01:47:34.029
As it is to become a part of my team here at local think tank.

01:47:34.029 --> 01:47:34.180
Yeah.

01:47:34.210 --> 01:47:36.010
Like you should almost have to do an application.

01:47:36.100 --> 01:47:36.310
Yeah.

01:47:36.430 --> 01:47:38.319
I should start charging people to apply.

01:47:38.350 --> 01:47:40.359
You have to adopt, adopt a culture, right?

01:47:40.359 --> 01:47:41.140
Like Yeah.

01:47:41.140 --> 01:47:43.000
Like a, like all a country is as a set of beliefs.

01:47:43.029 --> 01:47:43.300
Sure.

01:47:43.329 --> 01:47:43.479
Right.

01:47:43.479 --> 01:47:44.920
But ours is so fractured right now.

01:47:45.369 --> 01:47:46.449
It's really hard to say.

01:47:46.449 --> 01:47:47.034
There isn't really say what that is.

01:47:47.125 --> 01:47:47.475
Right.

01:47:47.770 --> 01:47:54.250
And even if we can't agree on what the set of beliefs says, we should be able to agree that nobody should be responsible for anybody else's this, that, or the other thing.

01:47:54.460 --> 01:48:04.750
The thing that has driven me crazy about locally, like, about, about this is Mike Johnston, the mayor of Denver, who happened to be my son's, uh, flag football coach, or a season or two also.

01:48:04.930 --> 01:48:10.810
But I don't think that one man should be able to decide to spend$325 million No.

01:48:10.989 --> 01:48:22.750
To give to illegal immigrants, to, to, to, to make their illegal transition to the United States and Denver, uh, easier without, without bankrupt the city of Denver virtually without a vote.

01:48:22.960 --> 01:48:23.319
Right.

01:48:23.439 --> 01:48:24.310
You know, without a vote.

01:48:24.310 --> 01:48:26.170
It's this executive power.

01:48:26.649 --> 01:48:31.114
That's fucking nuts to me at the local level and at the federal level.

01:48:31.354 --> 01:48:31.779
National level.

01:48:31.779 --> 01:48:31.960
Yeah.

01:48:32.050 --> 01:48:33.520
Executive power is outta control.

01:48:33.520 --> 01:48:34.689
It's outta control.

01:48:34.689 --> 01:48:35.500
It's outta control.

01:48:35.500 --> 01:48:41.350
And I say all that'cause I wanna remind people I don't wanna be canceled with, I don't give a fuck who comes here like, so long.

01:48:42.039 --> 01:48:43.479
Like, like fair.

01:48:43.510 --> 01:48:46.090
Like I don't like, I like I love it.

01:48:46.210 --> 01:48:46.510
Right.

01:48:46.510 --> 01:48:51.039
You know, there's a lot of value from, from, from the diversity that immigrants bring.

01:48:51.039 --> 01:48:51.430
Oh, tons.

01:48:51.489 --> 01:48:51.760
Yeah.

01:48:51.880 --> 01:48:59.949
Um, it's just like, who's footing the bill application with, with a fee Seems like way better than bringing a bunch of Venezuelan prisoners.

01:49:00.010 --> 01:49:00.310
Yeah.

01:49:00.430 --> 01:49:00.760
Up here.

01:49:01.000 --> 01:49:01.779
Yeah, for sure.

01:49:01.779 --> 01:49:03.970
If that's, and I think probably, which I think is Amar.

01:49:04.090 --> 01:49:08.560
I think too many of them are, but they're the exception to the rule Some.

01:49:08.619 --> 01:49:18.460
But if you're Venezuela and you're like, those guys are complete assholes and you know that they've been like letting a hundred thousand illegal immigrants across the border every month or every week.

01:49:18.460 --> 01:49:18.609
Yeah.

01:49:18.640 --> 01:49:19.210
Or whatever.

01:49:19.210 --> 01:49:19.390
Yeah.

01:49:20.154 --> 01:49:23.239
Why wouldn't you empty your mental asylums into the country?

01:49:23.239 --> 01:49:23.814
No, I, I agree.

01:49:23.814 --> 01:49:27.625
And when you have people like Mike, Justin, like there, they wish they had more mental asylum patients.

01:49:27.625 --> 01:49:27.685
No.

01:49:27.685 --> 01:49:28.734
They're like, here, take'em all.

01:49:28.734 --> 01:49:29.215
Take'em all.

01:49:29.364 --> 01:49:29.515
No.

01:49:29.515 --> 01:49:31.854
And when we're incentivizing, right.

01:49:31.975 --> 01:49:34.345
And you can, like, you can stay at a hotel in New York City.

01:49:34.345 --> 01:49:34.585
Yeah.

01:49:34.614 --> 01:49:38.454
You can call it support or whatever you want, but it is incentivizing people to come.

01:49:38.454 --> 01:49:43.284
It's saying, look, if you come, your journey may be arduous, but your arrival will be cake.

01:49:44.484 --> 01:49:44.574
Right.

01:49:44.574 --> 01:49:44.636
You know?

01:49:44.640 --> 01:49:44.720
Yeah.

01:49:45.020 --> 01:49:47.725
And like, and then once you, so we should not be doing any of that once No.

01:49:48.175 --> 01:49:52.104
To the extent that all the NGOs like, no, here's how you registered to vote.

01:49:53.545 --> 01:49:53.635
Yeah.

01:49:53.635 --> 01:49:54.475
No, no.

01:49:54.475 --> 01:49:57.625
You know, I, I, I liked the system of sponsorship that existed.

01:49:57.625 --> 01:49:57.984
Yeah.

01:49:57.984 --> 01:50:02.279
You know, which, like you could bring people over, but you know, your family at a restaurant, you kind got a vouch for'em virtually.

01:50:02.279 --> 01:50:02.520
Yeah.

01:50:02.520 --> 01:50:03.204
You vouch for'em.

01:50:03.204 --> 01:50:05.574
You say, Hey, I'm gonna give you employment and stuff like that.

01:50:05.875 --> 01:50:06.175
You know?

01:50:06.175 --> 01:50:07.824
I think that was a good system.

01:50:07.824 --> 01:50:08.755
It's intriguing for sure.

01:50:08.755 --> 01:50:09.475
Um, for sure.

01:50:09.564 --> 01:50:09.805
Yeah.

01:50:09.984 --> 01:50:11.574
Let's, uh, hit the final segment.

01:50:11.574 --> 01:50:11.904
Do it.

01:50:12.015 --> 01:50:13.484
The Loco experience.

01:50:13.604 --> 01:50:13.845
Yeah.

01:50:13.850 --> 01:50:16.484
The, the craziest story that you're willing to share Yeah.

01:50:16.574 --> 01:50:17.444
With our listeners.

01:50:17.534 --> 01:50:20.295
I mean, I don't know if it's the craziest, but, but it is a crazy story.

01:50:20.295 --> 01:50:21.140
Is it a valet experience?

01:50:21.140 --> 01:50:21.422
It's a valet experience.

01:50:21.427 --> 01:50:21.675
Okay.

01:50:22.154 --> 01:50:22.484
Let's hear it.

01:50:22.484 --> 01:50:22.845
All right.

01:50:22.845 --> 01:50:30.645
My, my, I think my first year working down there was, uh, maybe the year that the NBA All Star game was in Denver.

01:50:30.704 --> 01:50:30.975
Okay.

01:50:31.005 --> 01:50:31.274
Okay.

01:50:31.274 --> 01:50:33.765
I think Carmelo Anthony played for us.

01:50:33.824 --> 01:50:36.435
Uh, who was the guy that came from the Sixers?

01:50:36.494 --> 01:50:39.225
Um, uh, Barkley?

01:50:39.314 --> 01:50:40.126
No, no, no, no, no.

01:50:40.131 --> 01:50:40.454
Later.

01:50:40.454 --> 01:50:42.885
The shorter guy, uh, Allen Iverson.

01:50:42.914 --> 01:50:43.305
Oh, sure.

01:50:43.305 --> 01:50:43.817
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:43.819 --> 01:50:43.829
Yeah.

01:50:43.829 --> 01:50:45.135
So it was during that time, right?

01:50:45.135 --> 01:50:45.255
Yeah.

01:50:45.260 --> 01:50:45.300
Yeah.

01:50:45.305 --> 01:50:46.664
Big suits, big shorts.

01:50:46.664 --> 01:50:47.055
Fuck it.

01:50:47.114 --> 01:50:49.635
You know, like, it, it was that, it was that time.

01:50:49.635 --> 01:50:49.636
Yeah.

01:50:49.875 --> 01:50:49.994
Yeah.

01:50:50.024 --> 01:50:51.885
And so I'm working down in Cherry Creek.

01:50:52.675 --> 01:50:54.114
And everybody's coming down there.

01:50:54.114 --> 01:50:54.774
Who's anybody?

01:50:54.779 --> 01:50:54.819
Right?

01:50:54.819 --> 01:50:55.074
Right, right.

01:50:55.074 --> 01:50:56.875
They're parking all sorts of crazy cars.

01:50:56.875 --> 01:50:59.095
And so this guy comes up and he's got a Ferrari.

01:50:59.305 --> 01:51:00.114
He parks it.

01:51:00.114 --> 01:51:02.034
I, I always leave the Ferrari in front.

01:51:02.274 --> 01:51:05.454
He goes inside parties with his friends until the game's about to start.

01:51:05.454 --> 01:51:11.364
He comes back outside and he says, Hey, I'm actually gonna get a ride to the All-Star game with, uh, my friends.

01:51:11.694 --> 01:51:15.954
Um, can you just put my Ferrari in the garage and I'll come back and pick it up tomorrow?

01:51:16.225 --> 01:51:20.515
I said, I can put your Ferrari in the garage, but tomorrow was like Sunday or something like that.

01:51:20.515 --> 01:51:25.914
I said, you can't come back and pick it up tomorrow because the garage will lock and it won't open up again until Monday.

01:51:26.125 --> 01:51:26.395
Okay.

01:51:26.395 --> 01:51:27.595
And he says, okay, no problem.

01:51:27.595 --> 01:51:28.135
Take it home.

01:51:28.375 --> 01:51:28.795
I said What?

01:51:29.574 --> 01:51:30.204
Okay.

01:51:31.074 --> 01:51:31.975
He said, just take it home.

01:51:31.975 --> 01:51:32.274
I'll call.

01:51:32.274 --> 01:51:33.234
Gimme your cell phone number.

01:51:33.234 --> 01:51:33.895
I'll call you tomorrow.

01:51:33.895 --> 01:51:34.975
I'll pick it up from you tomorrow.

01:51:35.034 --> 01:51:35.395
I like it.

01:51:35.395 --> 01:51:37.970
Now, granted, I lived at the church at this time, right?

01:51:37.970 --> 01:51:38.154
You're right.

01:51:38.154 --> 01:51:39.024
Like barely across the street.

01:51:39.024 --> 01:51:39.114
Okay.

01:51:39.175 --> 01:51:42.505
And I've already got this Mercedes from my deal with Mercedes, right?

01:51:42.895 --> 01:51:44.454
And so I already look weird.

01:51:44.454 --> 01:51:47.449
Everyone already thinks I'm a drug dealer, already live in the basement of the church.

01:51:47.604 --> 01:51:48.744
I live in the basement of the church.

01:51:48.744 --> 01:51:49.824
Outside the basement door.

01:51:49.824 --> 01:51:51.024
I have my Mercedes parked.

01:51:51.024 --> 01:51:55.314
I also had a fore runner that I arrived in Denver with, and now this guy wants me to bring his fricking Ferrari.

01:51:55.375 --> 01:51:55.555
Yeah.

01:51:56.005 --> 01:51:59.335
I said, I said, ah man, I don't know if I feel comfortable with that.

01:51:59.335 --> 01:52:00.534
He said, look, I'll give you a big tip.

01:52:00.534 --> 01:52:01.225
Just take it home.

01:52:01.225 --> 01:52:01.795
I'll call you tomorrow.

01:52:01.795 --> 01:52:02.635
I'll come to wherever you are.

01:52:02.635 --> 01:52:03.175
I'll pick it up.

01:52:03.475 --> 01:52:04.555
I said, okay, sounds good.

01:52:05.814 --> 01:52:07.494
I take this Ferrari home to the church.

01:52:08.664 --> 01:52:09.324
He doesn't call.

01:52:09.534 --> 01:52:11.185
I drive it back the next day.

01:52:11.875 --> 01:52:12.654
He never comes.

01:52:12.835 --> 01:52:15.475
I don't have this guy's name, his number or anything.

01:52:15.654 --> 01:52:16.074
Damn.

01:52:16.074 --> 01:52:17.034
For a week.

01:52:17.095 --> 01:52:22.135
I drive this Ferrari back and forth from Because you want it to be there, the restaurant?

01:52:22.135 --> 01:52:22.404
Yes.

01:52:22.404 --> 01:52:23.064
If he gets here.

01:52:23.064 --> 01:52:23.664
Exactly.

01:52:23.664 --> 01:52:25.734
From the restaurant back to my house.

01:52:26.125 --> 01:52:29.574
Finally, my next day off, which was a week later, it was like a Sunday.

01:52:29.875 --> 01:52:32.694
I'm laying around in bed and my boss calls me and he's like.

01:52:32.725 --> 01:52:36.685
Pissed off and he's like, dude, Travis, where the hell's this guy's Ferrari?

01:52:37.015 --> 01:52:37.914
I'm like, it's at my house.

01:52:37.914 --> 01:52:39.475
He's like, why the fuck is it at your house?

01:52:39.475 --> 01:52:41.305
I'm like, he told me to take it.

01:52:41.904 --> 01:52:43.345
And he's like, well, he's pissed.

01:52:43.345 --> 01:52:45.774
You gotta get down here right now and bring that fucking Ferrari back.

01:52:46.100 --> 01:52:47.215
I was like, okay, I will.

01:52:47.574 --> 01:52:48.385
So I rushed that dude.

01:52:48.385 --> 01:52:49.225
Forgot completely.

01:52:49.345 --> 01:52:50.185
I don't know what he did.

01:52:50.185 --> 01:52:52.345
And this was previous to your business, right?

01:52:52.345 --> 01:52:53.574
Because Yeah.

01:52:53.574 --> 01:52:56.185
This is pretty, no, I had my valet ads company.

01:52:56.244 --> 01:52:56.545
Okay.

01:52:56.545 --> 01:52:56.904
You did?

01:52:56.904 --> 01:52:57.085
Yeah.

01:52:57.090 --> 01:52:57.140
Yeah.

01:52:57.140 --> 01:52:59.545
So I, I was doing fine, but like, I'm still working.

01:52:59.545 --> 01:53:01.314
'cause I, I met a lot of great people there.

01:53:01.314 --> 01:53:01.854
Right, right.

01:53:01.854 --> 01:53:06.505
Well, so I, and you at least had some credibility with the owner of the valet business.

01:53:06.505 --> 01:53:06.595
Yes.

01:53:06.595 --> 01:53:07.220
Right at Yeah.

01:53:07.255 --> 01:53:08.484
He knew I wasn't a criminal.

01:53:08.484 --> 01:53:08.875
Right, right.

01:53:08.875 --> 01:53:10.944
Although I did crash a Hummer that I had to pay for.

01:53:10.944 --> 01:53:11.005
Yeah.

01:53:11.064 --> 01:53:11.875
But that was an accident.

01:53:12.114 --> 01:53:14.694
Um, anyway, uh, so yeah, I drive back down there.

01:53:14.694 --> 01:53:16.585
The guy never comes out to see me.

01:53:16.649 --> 01:53:16.939
Okay.

01:53:16.944 --> 01:53:17.364
Okay.

01:53:17.364 --> 01:53:20.845
I wait in the restaurant thinking I'm finally gonna get this massive tip.

01:53:20.875 --> 01:53:21.265
Right.

01:53:21.505 --> 01:53:23.484
No, he walks out the other door, drives a car off.

01:53:23.484 --> 01:53:24.204
I never see him again.

01:53:24.354 --> 01:53:24.715
Oh shit.

01:53:24.774 --> 01:53:25.795
That was the craziest story.

01:53:25.795 --> 01:53:28.074
So I owned a Ferrari spider for one week.

01:53:28.164 --> 01:53:30.055
You should have, uh, uh, what's that?

01:53:30.085 --> 01:53:32.005
Tulo or what's the, uh.

01:53:32.050 --> 01:53:32.979
Rental thing.

01:53:33.550 --> 01:53:34.060
Turo Twoo.

01:53:34.060 --> 01:53:34.061
Yeah.

01:53:34.354 --> 01:53:35.574
Way before wrote that thing.

01:53:36.154 --> 01:53:37.015
Way before Turo.

01:53:37.180 --> 01:53:39.670
You could have given your friends like, Hey, a hundred bucks for two hours.

01:53:40.239 --> 01:53:40.630
Just kidding.

01:53:40.689 --> 01:53:40.960
Yeah.

01:53:40.989 --> 01:53:41.380
But yeah.

01:53:41.380 --> 01:53:44.739
If you knew he was gonna stiff you, I would've taken it all over town.

01:53:44.800 --> 01:53:45.159
Right.

01:53:45.159 --> 01:53:46.659
I put 4,000 miles.

01:53:46.659 --> 01:53:47.739
It would've been like Ferris beer.

01:53:48.340 --> 01:53:49.149
Exactly.

01:53:49.869 --> 01:53:51.640
But I was scared to death.

01:53:51.699 --> 01:53:56.529
I remember like watching it was parked under a tree and just like being like, oh my God, I hope nothing falls.

01:53:56.859 --> 01:53:56.953
Shit on the scene.

01:53:56.957 --> 01:53:57.850
Shits on there in the morning.

01:53:57.850 --> 01:53:58.420
Yeah, exactly.

01:53:59.170 --> 01:54:03.520
It just, it was so much responsibility for a kid my age, there's so much that could have happened.

01:54:03.520 --> 01:54:03.670
Oh, right.

01:54:04.270 --> 01:54:05.590
Like I'm 24.

01:54:05.619 --> 01:54:05.859
Right.

01:54:05.859 --> 01:54:08.890
And plus you've been like a two time loser on coffee shops.

01:54:08.890 --> 01:54:08.899
Yeah.

01:54:09.010 --> 01:54:11.710
And skateboard shops and music wasn't going your way.

01:54:11.710 --> 01:54:12.250
Yeah, that's right.

01:54:12.460 --> 01:54:12.850
That's right.

01:54:13.060 --> 01:54:15.279
But it gave me a taste of the fine life.

01:54:15.970 --> 01:54:16.539
That's right.

01:54:16.539 --> 01:54:17.289
That's right.

01:54:17.529 --> 01:54:20.260
What's cool though is that you've never been pursuing the fine life.

01:54:20.694 --> 01:54:28.645
Yeah, you've been pursuing value add, you know, you wanted to be comfortable, you wanted to be secure, I think after such a tumultuous childhood, but, uh, yeah.

01:54:28.885 --> 01:54:29.095
Yeah.

01:54:29.095 --> 01:54:31.704
That interesting way you got dumped into the fine life.

01:54:31.765 --> 01:54:32.185
Yeah.

01:54:32.244 --> 01:54:34.585
You barely had a spoonful of it your whole life.

01:54:34.614 --> 01:54:35.125
Oh, I know.

01:54:35.305 --> 01:54:37.345
And all of a sudden you're valeting for That's exactly it.

01:54:37.494 --> 01:54:39.085
Freaking Kobe Bryant and Yeah.

01:54:39.085 --> 01:54:42.984
And, uh, and making tens of thousands of dollars selling valet tickets.

01:54:42.984 --> 01:54:43.135
Right.

01:54:43.404 --> 01:54:44.755
I mean, it was a great time.

01:54:44.989 --> 01:54:46.039
What a fascinating spot.

01:54:46.039 --> 01:54:46.220
Yeah.

01:54:46.220 --> 01:54:48.439
Sit in Courtside and I mean, it was a great time.

01:54:48.560 --> 01:54:49.850
Well, this was a fun conversation.

01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:50.479
Yeah, no, it was.

01:54:50.479 --> 01:54:57.170
Um, if people wanna find you, do you wanna just look, look you up in LinkedIn or is there a way, you know, my website is travis luther.com.

01:54:57.199 --> 01:54:57.529
Okay.

01:54:57.619 --> 01:55:02.029
Um, I got a lot of stuff there, but I post a lot of my stuff on Instagram.

01:55:02.029 --> 01:55:05.090
So it's instagram@travisscottluther.com.

01:55:05.095 --> 01:55:05.185
Okay.

01:55:05.390 --> 01:55:07.640
I was the first Travis Scott, just so you know.

01:55:07.670 --> 01:55:07.909
Oh, nice.

01:55:07.909 --> 01:55:12.710
There's a big rapper and everyone's like, your name's Travis Scott, but yeah, at travis scott luther.com.

01:55:12.710 --> 01:55:14.300
I post my research findings there.

01:55:14.329 --> 01:55:14.630
Oh, really?

01:55:14.630 --> 01:55:15.020
On Instagram.

01:55:15.260 --> 01:55:15.619
Yeah.

01:55:15.619 --> 01:55:16.819
My self-help stuff.

01:55:16.850 --> 01:55:18.199
Seems like a weird place for that.

01:55:18.199 --> 01:55:18.265
I know.

01:55:18.380 --> 01:55:20.420
I just, I, that's where I have the most followers.

01:55:20.420 --> 01:55:21.560
I get the most engagement Instagram.

01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:22.970
I've stuck with it.

01:55:23.119 --> 01:55:23.420
Yeah.

01:55:23.630 --> 01:55:23.989
I dig it.

01:55:23.989 --> 01:55:24.409
Mm-hmm.

01:55:24.770 --> 01:55:32.029
My, my friend's, uh, mom was out for her grandson's graduation and her, uh, handle on Instagram is instagrammy.

01:55:32.409 --> 01:55:32.949
Oh, nice.

01:55:34.239 --> 01:55:34.810
That's awesome.

01:55:35.050 --> 01:55:36.010
Anyway, I digress.

01:55:36.819 --> 01:55:37.600
Love you, Barb.

01:55:37.600 --> 01:55:40.359
If you hear this, Travis, thanks for being here.

01:55:40.390 --> 01:55:40.930
Of course.

01:55:40.930 --> 01:55:41.470
Thanks for having me.

01:55:41.470 --> 01:55:43.329
And, uh, look forward to our next conversation.

01:55:43.329 --> 01:55:44.500
Yeah, this was awesome cheer.

01:55:44.500 --> 01:55:44.800
Thank you.

01:55:45.039 --> 01:55:45.159
Cheers.

01:55:45.220 --> 01:55:45.489
Bye now.