EXPERIENCE 220 | Excellence, Ethics, and Endurance - Triple Crown Leadership and more with Gregg Vanourek, Entrepreneur, Teacher, Author, and TEDx Speaker

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In this episode of The Loco Experience, I welcome, accomplished author, speaker, and teacher Greg VanEck into the studio.

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We discussed his recent book, triple Crown Leadership, which he co-wrote with his father.

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The book uses the metaphor of the triple crown and horse racing to describe the triple crown of leadership, excellence, ethics, and endurance.

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We discussed the extensive research and interviews involved in developing their book and leadership model, which aims to help leaders achieve exceptional results with integrity and sustainability.

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Greg shared his insights in his diverse professional journey, including his experience with think tanks and founding a startup foundation focused on education reform, which ultimately led him to move their family to Sweden.

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There he taught entrepreneurship and leadership at the Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden's, equivalent to MIT.

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The conversation delves into the significance of understanding oneself and discovering one's passions and strengths, especially for young adults.

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Greg offers advice on trusting oneself, paying attention to one's interest, and taking action to experiment and learn.

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He underscores the value of being in community with others to gain insights and support and navigating life's transitions.

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Greg also reflects on his family life, including the challenges and rewards of moving from Sweden back to the US with his wife and daughters.

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He highlights the importance of finding balance and joy in both professional and personal endeavors.

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The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion about memorable life moments such as Greg's adventurous trip to the Netherlands without a passport and the role of music in his life.

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Ile, our keynote speaker and workshop leader at the local member event this fall, aim to thrive, and I know you'll enjoy getting to know my new friend Greg Vanek.

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience.

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I'm here today with Greg VanEck and Greg is an author, a speaker, a.

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A teacher.

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Yes.

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Many above.

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Um, let's talk maybe about your book that you brought us.

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Mm.

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Today, triple Crown Leadership.

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Great.

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So it's good to be with you, Kurt.

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Thank thanks for having me.

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Of course.

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So this book, triple Crown Leadership, uh, I wrote with my father.

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Yeah.

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So it was really wonderful having a father son collaboration on a multi-year project.

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We had done some teaching together.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then also a bunch of research for this book.

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So the book uses the metaphor of the Triple Crown.

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Of course, we just had the Kentucky Derby right.

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And, uh, so we use that as a metaphor for three things to aim for in leadership.

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So the first one is, what kind of leadership does it take to be excellent to have an excellent organization?

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So that's the derby.

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Then you gotta go to the Preakness, right?

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Okay.

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And so the second leg is ethical.

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It's not just getting great results, but doing it with integrity.

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Yeah.

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So doing the right thing, even when it's costly or hard.

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So the excellent is more about the actual results.

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It's about the results, yeah.

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It's the growth that.

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The growth in margins and whatever market share we actually say it's about ex achieving exceptional results and positive impacts, right?

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So excellent and then ethical.

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And then if you win the Preakness, you gotta go up to the Belmont Stakes for the test of the champion, right?

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And then if you win all three, you win the triple crown, which is the most elusive championship in all of sports.

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Uh, only about a dozen have won it since 1875.

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Okay?

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And the third leg in leadership is enduring.

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So it's, uh, standing the test of time and operating sustainably.

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So can you be excellent and, and ethical, not just this year or this quarter, but over time?

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And, uh, so it's excellent, ethical, enduring.

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It's a very high standard.

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It's exceedingly rare.

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And for the book we drew on our own experience.

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Yeah.

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So we had a very different experience, but we also did a bunch of research on the world's most admired companies, world's most ethical, sustainable, uh, innovative.

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And then we interviewed leaders in 61 organizations in 11 countries.

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Oh, wow.

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From the Mayo Clinic to Google, Cisco, Spotify, China, net Cloud, it was a range of large enterprises, global.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, startups, social enterprises, non-profits, government, military education, you know, turnarounds included.

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Mm-hmm.

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And did you feel like these were companies that represented those?

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Triple crowns, or at least some of those factors.

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So th that wasn't actually the point of the research.

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Okay.

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And so, you know, we had looked at the Jim Collins work.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I was thinking about Good To Great.

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Exactly.

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Good to Great.

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It's a great book.

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Incredible research team.

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He called'em the Chimps up there, all the people who did all the incredible research, but we wanted it to be about not a list of great organizations.

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We wanted it to be focused on the practices that can help you be excellent, ethical, enduring.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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And I think one of the problems with the list approach is things change.

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And so if you look at like, the Good to Great list, right?

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Um, you know, a bunch of like Walgreens celebrated really high, you know, circuit City, you know, and, you know, and it's, you know, yep.

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And, and so there's a little danger about focusing too much on the institutions, the organizations.

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And so we focused on what, what are the advanced leadership practices that help you be excellent, ethical, and enduring?

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And for that you can draw on a lot of organizations, including turnarounds, et cetera.

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But the first point is be clear.

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What are you aiming for?

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You know, Covey said, begin with the end in mind.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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And so what is your leadership quest?

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Are you clear on that?

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And are you aiming high enough?

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And I think a lot of people that get right into the operations and the management, et cetera, without really, and this course points to one of the practices is about shared purpose, values, and vision.

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Mm-hmm.

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But what is your leadership quest?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And defining that for your team is Yeah.

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Part of even being excellent.

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Excellent.

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At what exactly.

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Yeah.

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I was just thinking about how that triple crowd, I wonder how many horses won the first two and then didn't.

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Uh, win The third is, is that something you happen to research when find your way?

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I don't know.

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Um, I, I do notice that it tends to dwindle, you know, so the derby is bigger, and then by the time you get to the Belmont, a lot of people are out because they don't, they're not in contention anymore.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, but, and I think the races have different, but you start with, you know, around like 18 of the world's best.

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Yeah.

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And then, and then sometimes you'll have a, a much smaller group, but one of the stories, so we had fun with this metaphor.

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So we started with the three, you know, excellent, ethical, enduring, and we said we need a kind of a metaphor, something fun.

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And so we thought Hatrick Troika.

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Right.

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And a colleague of ours said, triple Crown.

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Right.

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And like instantly we said, boom, that's, it's gotta be that right.

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And, uh, so we had fun, not only, um, doing the research on businesses, social ventures, governments, you know, education, military, but also we interviewed some people in horse racing, you know?

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Hmm.

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And we interviewed, uh, the jockey who ran Ariat.

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Oh, wow.

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Which is one of the features stories.

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So 1973 Secretary of Big Red Ron Turcott.

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And we said, Ron, what did it feel like to be on top of Big Red?

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Okay.

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When?

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And, and then, and so, I don't know if you know the story, but a little bit.

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It was incredible.

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So won the Derby by a couple lengths.

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Won the Preakness by a couple lengths, and that's the length of a horse.

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Sure.

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So typically you win by a half a length or a head or a couple lengths.

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And so it was a really big rivalry between Sham and Secretariat that year.

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Okay.

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But by the time the Belmont Stakes came around, Ron Turcott said, I can go out fast with the leaders.

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Right from the start where Secretariat had never done that before.

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Secretariat always liked to go from the back.

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Mm-hmm.

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To avoid being in the Scrum and getting bumped.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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'cause he had been bumped hard in his first race.

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Okay.

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So Secretariat goes right out with Sham at the very beginning.

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Now the Belmont Stakes is the longest dirt track and thoroughbred horse racing.

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That's why I thought there were different lengths.

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Yeah.

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So you gotta be much more paced.

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You gotta be more strategic and, and patient.

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And so people said this is a disaster.

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They're going out way too fast.

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Right.

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They're gonna blow the chance for the Triple crown.

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But Secretariat and Sham just took a big lead on the, they were up two lengths, up, five lengths on the group, seven lengths.

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And it was like a match race in the back stretch, you know, they were just way ahead then 10 lengths and then sec, and then Sham starts to fade.

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Its secretary just keeps going and opened up and eventually the announcer called it 25 lengths ahead of Sham.

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Ahead of No sham faded the rest of the group.

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Oh.

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Caught past sham and passed.

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Sham.

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Sham.

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It was just way too fast for Sham, right?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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And so the announcer's up in the booth Now I've been up in one of those booths and it's hilarious just being with I away they go.

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We got on the rail green and everything, and of course they're drinking and everything off you.

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And so, but he's just eyeballing it from, you know, there's 180,000 people you know, there in the, in the field and, and live.

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They went back and measured, it wasn't 25, it was 31 lengths.

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Oh dang.

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He won by 80 meters.

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He blew away the track record.

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Nobody's come close since.

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And so really it was just this incredible, one of the most incredible athletic performances across sports.

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You so go watch, you know, 1973, I'm on stake.

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YouTube watch it.

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You'll get goosebumps.

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I tell you, there was a, uh, was it, there was a horse racing movie out just a few years ago.

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That was the story of.

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Something.

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It was not just a few years ago.

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It was probably 20 years ago.

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Was it that?

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Well, they've done Sea Biscuits.

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Sea Biscuit is a great movie.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's what I'm thinking about.

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Yeah.

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And then they've got a Secretariat film as well.

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Okay.

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And so we had fun and you know, we, we talked about Man of War and some of the other stories, uh, in the book of horse racing.

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Um, but, you know, and it's really, it's not just the, the horse is this incredible animal, but it's the, it's the jockey.

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Ron Turcot knew.

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That Secretariat had it in, had the juice, right?

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Yeah.

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But it's the owner, the, the, the stable was, was in crisis.

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And because the, the, the owner, uh, I think passed away.

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And so the daughter who was not in the industry took over Meadow Farms and did a turnaround and brought in the right people.

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Oh, did.

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And everything.

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And, and so it was this incredible story of a team effort.

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You know, you need the veterinarian Yeah.

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Outsider coming in it sounds like.

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Yeah.

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And at the end of, if you, if you watch the video, as soon as uh, secretariat wins, the camera just pauses there as he crosses the finish line.

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One, 1002, one, and then it pans back to find the other horses way back.

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Right.

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And then the other horses.

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And then a couple seconds later they go up to the stands and you see Penny Chenery the owner who did the turnaround, and she's just celebrating and it's just this incredible moment.

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That's really cool.

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Yeah.

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Leadership.

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What was it like writing a book?

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Uh, does your dad live here locally as well?

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So you would get together actually in person and push out.

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Yeah.

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Ideas and outlines?

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Or did you Yeah.

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You're chapter two.

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I'm chapter three, so yeah, my mom and dad are high school sweet sweethearts who live in, uh, Genesee in Jefferson County.

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Okay.

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Right up the hill a bit.

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And, uh, yeah.

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And, um, so part of it we wrote together and were able to kind of work, but, but then for part of it, I took the book to Sweden when, uh, my wife and I moved with our young daughters to Sweden.

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We lived there for 10 years.

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Yeah.

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So part of it was remote as well.

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Oh, I see.

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We were kind of, so maybe, I don't know, half half, you know, here and half there.

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Before remote work was sexy.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Or normal.

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Yeah.

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But my dad and I had done some teaching together.

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Okay.

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Before, and some speaking, but writing a book together is very intense.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And it can, you know, you really start to care about, you know, what you say or the, it can get a little, you know, your ego's involved, all these red pen edits coming back and forth.

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But my dad was incredible.

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You know, he was a multi-time CEO and he's obviously my dad.

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But he said, Greg, if we're gonna write a book together.

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We are equals.

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Hmm.

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We are absolutely co-equal.

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Nobody's got, uh, well, he, he got first billing.

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Is it alphabetical?

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It's alphabetical.

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No, I gave him, but now he is retired, so he says, put your name first on stuff.

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So, uh, fair enough.

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But it was incredible, you know, doing a project like that with my dad.

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Yeah.

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He's, he's a remarkable dad and just human being and just having something like this, it's one of the best experiences of both of our lives.

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Was he a CEO even when you were a little guy?

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Or did he kind of work his way up and then did the, the CEO stuff?

00:12:37.423 --> 00:12:43.722
Yeah, so, uh, so growing up, my brother, my older brother and I, we followed, you know, our family followed his business career around.

00:12:43.783 --> 00:12:53.383
And so I remember him being kind of a group VP at Avery Label, and then he became the president of Monarch Marking in Dayton, Ohio.

00:12:53.442 --> 00:12:53.773
Okay.

00:12:53.773 --> 00:12:57.942
After, uh, Avery was in California and that was a subsidiary, Pitney Bowes.

00:12:57.942 --> 00:12:58.513
And then he got.

00:12:58.768 --> 00:13:04.918
Brought up to the mothership in Connecticut to be a group VP for Pitney Bowes, which is a much larger enterprise.

00:13:05.217 --> 00:13:06.477
Monarch was incredible.

00:13:06.687 --> 00:13:10.648
And then he, and then he did a turnaround in Dallas, Texas with a partner.

00:13:10.648 --> 00:13:14.607
They took over a company, did kind of a financial and ethical turnaround.

00:13:14.638 --> 00:13:14.788
Hmm.

00:13:15.087 --> 00:13:25.947
And then he did another turnaround of a billion dollar company called Sensor MAD in Florida, um, that was doing, so yeah, you saw that kind of a, but he was really pretty big corporate, right?

00:13:25.947 --> 00:13:26.187
Yeah, it was.

00:13:26.187 --> 00:13:29.457
These were subsidiaries of larger organizations and things Yeah.

00:13:29.457 --> 00:13:30.298
Or the mothership.

00:13:30.298 --> 00:13:30.567
Yeah.

00:13:30.572 --> 00:13:38.158
And, and, uh, but so he had initially done some private equity, some entrepreneurial stuff, and he served in the Army briefly, but then he rapidly got into corporate.

00:13:38.163 --> 00:13:38.344
Yeah, yeah.

00:13:38.349 --> 00:13:45.118
He basically, he was disillusioned with what the way private equity, what it was doing with these, these companies.

00:13:45.118 --> 00:13:46.258
The way it was kind of just brutal.

00:13:46.258 --> 00:13:47.217
Well, it's much nicer now.

00:13:47.607 --> 00:13:47.998
Yeah.

00:13:48.597 --> 00:13:48.927
Right.

00:13:49.857 --> 00:13:50.488
So much better.

00:13:50.488 --> 00:13:52.768
They've gotten so much better at screwing people most of the time.

00:13:52.768 --> 00:13:52.827
Yeah.

00:13:53.038 --> 00:13:54.748
But this, but this comes back to the quest.

00:13:54.748 --> 00:14:03.207
And so like for him, he said early on in his career, he is like, am I gonna spend my whole career being so brutal to people?

00:14:03.207 --> 00:14:03.538
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:03.538 --> 00:14:05.488
And he said, isn't there a better way?

00:14:06.048 --> 00:14:08.988
To operate in business and is there a better way to lead?

00:14:09.317 --> 00:14:14.388
And he, he basically went on a lifelong personal quest, searching for a better way to lead.

00:14:14.388 --> 00:14:18.138
And that brought him to servant leadership initially with Robert Greenleaf.

00:14:18.168 --> 00:14:18.408
Mm-hmm.

00:14:18.498 --> 00:14:19.638
And this whole other model.

00:14:19.697 --> 00:14:24.288
And then we developed our own leadership model and, you know, he was trying out different things to his career.

00:14:24.347 --> 00:14:24.857
Really cool.

00:14:25.008 --> 00:14:25.248
Yeah.

00:14:25.337 --> 00:14:28.067
Um, you're a fairly prolific author.

00:14:28.067 --> 00:14:30.557
Is this, this was your second or third?

00:14:30.557 --> 00:14:31.577
This is the third book.

00:14:31.577 --> 00:14:31.847
Okay.

00:14:31.847 --> 00:14:37.278
And you've got another one you're, you're working on now, a new one in it's written, or is it written now and it's got editing to do?

00:14:37.278 --> 00:14:40.067
Or is it It's, uh, it's got a draft.

00:14:40.067 --> 00:14:40.097
Okay.

00:14:40.097 --> 00:14:46.668
But I've got a lot of work to do because I've subsequently gone out and I've interviewed, I think 43 people in 20 plus countries now.

00:14:46.727 --> 00:14:46.878
Oh, wow.

00:14:46.878 --> 00:14:52.668
And kind of taking that data set and integrating it, and so that book is on the common traps of living.

00:14:52.788 --> 00:14:52.908
Hmm.

00:14:53.118 --> 00:14:56.748
And so it's more of a personal development or leading self-focused book.

00:14:56.778 --> 00:14:56.988
Okay.

00:14:57.168 --> 00:15:02.717
And so what are the things that inhibit our happiness, our quality of life, and our fulfillments?

00:15:03.013 --> 00:15:03.163
Hmm.

00:15:03.793 --> 00:15:08.533
How do you choose which 41 people you should interview for a book like that?

00:15:08.773 --> 00:15:09.192
Yeah.

00:15:09.582 --> 00:15:14.097
So, um, so for this one, um, this.

00:15:14.837 --> 00:15:20.057
Interview set was quite different from the other, so all the other books included interviews.

00:15:20.118 --> 00:15:20.207
Okay.

00:15:20.207 --> 00:15:22.128
And some included some surveys as well.

00:15:22.158 --> 00:15:22.457
Okay.

00:15:22.847 --> 00:15:32.028
In those cases, it was much more of people were honored to be asked because we're writing a book on excellent leadership and you know, we want to hear your story.

00:15:32.087 --> 00:15:32.508
Yeah.

00:15:32.508 --> 00:15:32.509
Yeah.

00:15:33.048 --> 00:15:36.197
Um, a previous book was on Be the Entrepreneur of Your Life.

00:15:36.197 --> 00:15:40.337
It's called Life Entrepreneurs Live with Purpose and Passion and so and so we found people.

00:15:40.927 --> 00:15:44.977
This new book is much harder because it's about the traps of living.

00:15:45.158 --> 00:15:45.368
Yeah.

00:15:45.368 --> 00:15:49.268
And we're talking about things that are very deep and vulnerable in some cases.

00:15:49.268 --> 00:15:52.508
And so for the new book, it's, it's, uh, anonymous.

00:15:52.508 --> 00:15:56.378
I decided that Oh, unless somebody insists that they be named, yeah.

00:15:56.437 --> 00:16:02.918
I'm gonna make it anonymous so that people can just know that they can speak totally free freely and they won't have to worry about it.

00:16:02.947 --> 00:16:06.908
You know, getting back that somebody's gonna read about their, you know, their tough story.

00:16:06.908 --> 00:16:14.408
So with that, you know, I have, uh, I lived in Europe for 10 years and did a lot of teaching and so I was able to go out into my network.

00:16:14.528 --> 00:16:25.957
Some people came to me and kind of offered, but often I would go out and, and um, and, and, um, ask people who I thought would be thoughtful and willing to talk about the deeper stuff.

00:16:25.988 --> 00:16:26.258
Yeah.

00:16:26.467 --> 00:16:28.717
Um, and, you know, people know people et cetera.

00:16:28.717 --> 00:16:29.947
And are you looking for like.

00:16:30.707 --> 00:16:36.677
People that have become successful but navigated some of these traps so they have some of that experience.

00:16:36.677 --> 00:16:43.668
Or is it people that have been trapped by something already, like as it's an interesting day pool to choose?

00:16:43.668 --> 00:16:45.408
That's part of my, my curiosity.

00:16:45.408 --> 00:16:46.097
It's, yeah, it is.

00:16:46.097 --> 00:16:53.388
And I mean, the, the book isn't, it's not an academic research book where I'm trying to kind of just draw it off the interviews.

00:16:53.388 --> 00:17:00.347
'cause I'm also drawing it off of, I've got an online tool where I've had, uh, more than a thousand people around the world fill out my Traps test.

00:17:00.378 --> 00:17:00.677
Okay.

00:17:00.977 --> 00:17:06.647
And then I've done a bunch of research of books and academic articles and journals, et cetera, on gotcha's phenomenon.

00:17:07.038 --> 00:17:12.768
But, um, but I think, uh, the other thing that I wanted was, I wanted a geographic diversity.

00:17:12.827 --> 00:17:12.948
Hmm.

00:17:12.948 --> 00:17:15.288
You know, I'm really looking at human experience.

00:17:15.292 --> 00:17:15.373
Mm-hmm.

00:17:15.557 --> 00:17:18.077
And I didn't want it to be localized to Yeah.

00:17:18.107 --> 00:17:20.748
To, um, north America or the United States.

00:17:20.928 --> 00:17:21.107
Yeah.

00:17:21.107 --> 00:17:23.807
Although it's, it's oversampled with, you know, very.

00:17:24.167 --> 00:17:25.337
Privileged people.

00:17:25.428 --> 00:17:27.948
If you look at the world today, I mean, we're incredibly privileged.

00:17:27.952 --> 00:17:28.307
Right, right.

00:17:28.307 --> 00:17:33.377
And so, you know, it's, it's not meant to be representative of the entire global.

00:17:33.438 --> 00:17:35.387
Do you, uh, do you have any teasers?

00:17:35.387 --> 00:17:40.278
Are there like a, a top three most common traps of living that you've, uh, identified?

00:17:40.307 --> 00:17:51.198
Yeah, so one of the big surprises so far is how many of the traps are in our heads and they're kind of self-imposed, self-inflicted wounds.

00:17:51.557 --> 00:17:55.577
And so, you know, some of the big ones are negative self-talk.

00:17:56.133 --> 00:17:56.222
Sure.

00:17:56.643 --> 00:18:00.272
Self-doubt and the limiting beliefs that are related to that.

00:18:00.782 --> 00:18:05.042
And then a kind of a bucket of things around overthinking.

00:18:05.403 --> 00:18:05.583
Hmm.

00:18:05.673 --> 00:18:08.373
So that would include worrying about the future Yep.

00:18:08.522 --> 00:18:15.032
And ruminating on things too much where you can't stop thinking about something that happened or something you've said.

00:18:15.363 --> 00:18:17.163
And then also just monkey mind.

00:18:17.192 --> 00:18:17.492
Right.

00:18:17.492 --> 00:18:25.682
Where your mind is just bouncing around and you just can't have presence and focused love the, the letting the past be the past, I think I am do better with.

00:18:25.712 --> 00:18:26.762
It's a tricky one.

00:18:26.762 --> 00:18:26.942
Yeah.

00:18:26.942 --> 00:18:31.682
But staying focused on one thing when that's the most important thing is isn't quite as easy for me.

00:18:31.833 --> 00:18:32.042
Yeah.

00:18:32.042 --> 00:18:33.393
Well a lot of people, you're not alone.

00:18:33.633 --> 00:18:36.722
So that's one of the big learnings is the psychological piece.

00:18:36.752 --> 00:18:42.843
And then there's some other ones that are pretty common, like drifting through your life, settling for just, okay.

00:18:43.353 --> 00:18:48.123
The term that's been used on Twitter a lot lately is the NPC, the non-player characters.

00:18:48.752 --> 00:18:49.623
Are you familiar with that?

00:18:49.982 --> 00:18:51.663
A little bit, but say more about that.

00:18:51.692 --> 00:18:53.853
Well, it's kind of that, that drifting through your life.

00:18:53.853 --> 00:18:53.942
Mm-hmm.

00:18:54.182 --> 00:18:55.178
You know, you're not actually.

00:18:55.742 --> 00:18:57.123
Really making any decisions.

00:18:57.123 --> 00:18:59.522
You're just on the boat, you're on the hook to the side character.

00:19:00.093 --> 00:19:00.363
Yeah.

00:19:00.363 --> 00:19:02.192
You're not really engaging.

00:19:02.192 --> 00:19:03.813
You're not really impacting anybody's life.

00:19:04.337 --> 00:19:04.548
Yeah.

00:19:04.548 --> 00:19:07.038
To significant positive or negative Yeah.

00:19:07.038 --> 00:19:08.417
Your organization Yeah.

00:19:08.448 --> 00:19:10.488
Gets just enough out of you to tolerate you.

00:19:10.577 --> 00:19:10.938
Yeah.

00:19:11.178 --> 00:19:11.627
I love that.

00:19:11.627 --> 00:19:14.238
NPCI should probably mention that in the drifting chapters perhaps.

00:19:14.538 --> 00:19:14.778
Yeah.

00:19:14.778 --> 00:19:17.567
And, and then, you know, conforming to what other people want.

00:19:17.597 --> 00:19:17.688
Mm-hmm.

00:19:17.712 --> 00:19:18.032
Or expect.

00:19:18.032 --> 00:19:18.272
Mm-hmm.

00:19:18.438 --> 00:19:20.238
Comparing yourself to others mm-hmm.

00:19:20.657 --> 00:19:21.557
Is another big one.

00:19:21.768 --> 00:19:33.407
So, and what I've done with this new book I'm working on is there was one page in my second book, which is Life Entrepreneurs, and that's the book about, you know, being the entrepreneur of your life and living with purpose and passion.

00:19:33.407 --> 00:19:33.468
Yeah.

00:19:33.468 --> 00:19:44.117
And so we talk about all these things that you should do to integrate your life and work and live boldly and, and, uh, and, but there was one page on the pitfalls that get you into trouble.

00:19:44.208 --> 00:19:44.538
Okay.

00:19:44.688 --> 00:19:48.048
And so what I've done is kind of a zoom in pivot Yeah.

00:19:48.077 --> 00:19:52.428
And turning that one page in that life entrepreneur's book into my next book.

00:19:52.458 --> 00:19:52.728
Cool.

00:19:52.817 --> 00:20:00.137
So, yeah, is that, uh, like I, I want to, I've, I've kind of wanted to have a, do a book.

00:20:00.813 --> 00:20:04.742
At times, you know, I've got a lot of different ideas and I, but it's a chore.

00:20:05.042 --> 00:20:05.583
Yeah, right.

00:20:05.583 --> 00:20:08.553
Like how many, how, how do you go about writing?

00:20:08.553 --> 00:20:16.083
Do you, do you, are you like Hemingway, where you just write 500 words every day and, uh, you know, then kind of don't worry about it until later.

00:20:16.472 --> 00:20:16.772
Yeah.

00:20:16.803 --> 00:20:18.992
So, uh, I, I write every day.

00:20:19.113 --> 00:20:19.442
Okay.

00:20:19.442 --> 00:20:23.883
But I also define writing broadly because to me it's the writing process.

00:20:24.063 --> 00:20:24.153
Mm-hmm.

00:20:24.542 --> 00:20:37.923
And so, you know, so I am literally writing new stuff every day, but I'm also reading a lot, researching, architecting, outlining, and then of course editing and re-architecting.

00:20:37.923 --> 00:20:40.323
And so all of that would be, you know, yeah.

00:20:40.323 --> 00:20:44.883
And so I literally have a calendar in my home office where I'm kind of checking off, did I do my writing today?

00:20:44.972 --> 00:20:45.153
Yeah.

00:20:45.482 --> 00:20:46.803
Um, and then, yeah.

00:20:46.807 --> 00:20:47.883
So, and then, and then what?

00:20:47.883 --> 00:20:49.803
Like how is a book a thousand hours.

00:20:50.298 --> 00:20:57.917
Yeah, I, I haven't counted the hours for, for me, typically a book is like a, you know, two and a half to three year, uh, process.

00:20:58.127 --> 00:20:58.157
Okay.

00:20:58.278 --> 00:21:04.307
Uh, but I really, in an hour or two a day, probably, uh, well, probably more than that actually.

00:21:04.307 --> 00:21:04.817
Yeah.

00:21:04.817 --> 00:21:04.818
Yeah.

00:21:05.028 --> 00:21:06.077
Um, but I.

00:21:06.363 --> 00:21:10.502
You know, so my, my dad, my dad and I are very different.

00:21:10.742 --> 00:21:15.242
And my dad, you know, you know, did turnarounds and he had this very yeah, get after it.

00:21:15.242 --> 00:21:16.982
Intense, get after finish the project.

00:21:16.982 --> 00:21:19.593
That was part of what made him great at doing what, you know, those turnarounds and stuff.

00:21:19.593 --> 00:21:19.817
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:20.222 --> 00:21:25.682
So when I, when I asked him to write a book, he's like, great, you know, like six months, you know, let go, go, go.

00:21:25.712 --> 00:21:26.042
Right.

00:21:26.133 --> 00:21:31.173
And I, and I said, dad, if we're gonna write a book, you know, given your career,'cause he had an incredible career.

00:21:31.653 --> 00:21:35.883
Um, and given your knowledge and like, I just really wanna, you know, really do this.

00:21:35.883 --> 00:21:36.182
Right.

00:21:36.182 --> 00:21:41.103
So I, I view it more as I, I, I try not to be timeline driven with my books.

00:21:41.343 --> 00:21:46.083
Obviously, once you have a publisher than you get on the, the, you know, the, the assembly line.

00:21:46.083 --> 00:21:46.262
Right?

00:21:46.262 --> 00:21:46.593
Right.

00:21:46.678 --> 00:21:52.258
But, uh, you know, I really say this book is going to need what it takes Yeah.

00:21:52.258 --> 00:21:52.917
To be the book.

00:21:52.917 --> 00:21:55.228
It needs to be it be dumb when it's done, and I'm committed to that.

00:21:55.288 --> 00:21:55.678
Yeah.

00:21:55.678 --> 00:21:55.679
Yeah.

00:21:56.038 --> 00:21:59.008
And then you just have to work, work around it and make it, make it happen.

00:21:59.067 --> 00:21:59.397
All right.

00:21:59.548 --> 00:22:05.038
Well, maybe when I get quite not quite so fascinated with podcasting, I'll dedicate a little time to starting that book.

00:22:05.067 --> 00:22:05.607
Let's talk.

00:22:05.607 --> 00:22:05.962
I love it.

00:22:06.202 --> 00:22:06.205
I love it.

00:22:07.018 --> 00:22:12.538
Um, so how do you, as aside from book writing, you, you mentioned that you're a teacher and a speaker.

00:22:12.538 --> 00:22:13.678
What, what else are you doing?

00:22:14.008 --> 00:22:14.218
Yeah.

00:22:14.248 --> 00:22:19.647
Right now I know we're, we're talking about having you out, uh, in the fall for, uh, uh.

00:22:20.032 --> 00:22:21.232
Aim to thrive event.

00:22:21.232 --> 00:22:22.343
A thinker fest type of, yeah.

00:22:22.403 --> 00:22:24.623
I'm really looking forward to engaging with your community.

00:22:24.623 --> 00:22:24.923
Yeah.

00:22:25.282 --> 00:22:29.542
So I have a portfolio of work that includes writing, which is the books.

00:22:29.542 --> 00:22:33.923
And then, uh, I'm publishing a detailed blog every week.

00:22:33.982 --> 00:22:34.163
Okay.

00:22:34.163 --> 00:22:38.843
You know, it's kind of the much, more than more like an article, I guess I'm not on your mailing list yet.

00:22:38.903 --> 00:22:40.012
I gotta get you on there.

00:22:40.012 --> 00:22:42.593
Apparently, Kurt, what do you, that goes automatically just bam or something?

00:22:42.593 --> 00:22:43.762
Maybe I'm just filtering you out.

00:22:43.823 --> 00:22:47.722
Yeah, so I've got writing, teaching, speaking, and coaching.

00:22:47.932 --> 00:22:48.202
Okay.

00:22:48.292 --> 00:22:52.522
And, and so I, I think I've called myself a pracademic, right?

00:22:52.522 --> 00:22:54.353
Because I'm a practitioner.

00:22:54.353 --> 00:22:57.833
I've had a career in a think tank in a startup.

00:22:58.173 --> 00:23:04.413
Education Reform Foundation and in an online education startup that became a scale up market leader.

00:23:04.532 --> 00:23:04.772
Okay.

00:23:04.803 --> 00:23:16.863
But I've also done a lot of research and teaching, including, uh, 10 years in Sweden teaching at the Royal Institute of Technology Entrepreneurship and teaching executive MBA leadership at Stockholm Business School.

00:23:16.863 --> 00:23:20.073
Some teaching at University of Denver here in Colorado as well.

00:23:20.133 --> 00:23:20.373
Yeah.

00:23:20.403 --> 00:23:21.393
And a bunch of guest teaching.

00:23:21.393 --> 00:23:25.413
And then I have online courses that I offer as well, that are part of my teaching.

00:23:25.442 --> 00:23:25.653
Oh, really?

00:23:25.653 --> 00:23:26.042
Portfolio.

00:23:26.192 --> 00:23:26.432
Yeah.

00:23:26.762 --> 00:23:30.423
So, so that's, so I, I enjoy having this portfolio, you know?

00:23:30.423 --> 00:23:30.542
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:30.542 --> 00:23:34.742
I've been in, uh, education related things my entire career.

00:23:34.742 --> 00:23:35.073
Yeah.

00:23:35.492 --> 00:23:39.333
But in very different, you know, think Tank startup tech.

00:23:39.603 --> 00:23:40.022
Yeah.

00:23:40.262 --> 00:23:42.212
Directly teaching, et cetera.

00:23:42.423 --> 00:23:43.593
Tell me about Think tank.

00:23:44.042 --> 00:23:44.313
Yeah.

00:23:44.343 --> 00:23:46.232
Like, I mean, we are local, think tank here.

00:23:46.238 --> 00:23:46.448
Right?

00:23:46.452 --> 00:23:46.563
Right.

00:23:46.563 --> 00:23:49.232
And so, uh, and it's a bit of a play on words.

00:23:49.232 --> 00:23:50.583
You know, we're a local think tank.

00:23:50.583 --> 00:23:54.423
We don't, we're not, we're just as smart as you guys in Washington DC or whatever.

00:23:54.603 --> 00:23:54.752
Yeah.

00:23:54.813 --> 00:24:05.972
Uh, but what's, what's a real thing I would say, don't assume that, uh, but I would say it's funny because, you know, out of, uh, college I studied politics, philosophy, economics.

00:24:06.002 --> 00:24:06.333
Okay.

00:24:06.333 --> 00:24:07.022
Undergraduate.

00:24:07.173 --> 00:24:11.042
And then I did a one year master's at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

00:24:11.073 --> 00:24:11.313
Okay.

00:24:11.643 --> 00:24:17.343
And, and then I said, you know, I went home to Texas where we had just moved and I did some, you know, odd jobs for a while.

00:24:17.343 --> 00:24:19.353
I said, I want to go work for a think tank.

00:24:19.442 --> 00:24:19.563
Hmm.

00:24:19.623 --> 00:24:21.363
And my parents said, son.

00:24:21.843 --> 00:24:27.932
We love you and you know, we believe in you who heck could hire you, but like you can't work at a think tank.

00:24:27.932 --> 00:24:31.087
You gotta have like five PhDs and like there's, you know, you can't just Right, right.

00:24:31.087 --> 00:24:33.248
You gotta already have your reputation and then you can go work there.

00:24:33.248 --> 00:24:33.647
Said, yeah.

00:24:33.692 --> 00:24:35.313
I said I want to go work for a think tank.

00:24:35.313 --> 00:24:37.712
And of course the think tanks have entry level jobs too.

00:24:37.712 --> 00:24:40.803
So I, I ended up like applying to a bunch and I got, yeah.

00:24:40.833 --> 00:24:45.093
I was very fortunate to get hired by as a research assistant Okay.

00:24:45.093 --> 00:24:47.042
Initially at a DC think tank.

00:24:47.073 --> 00:24:47.252
Yep.

00:24:47.583 --> 00:24:54.093
That was just a public policy think tank focusing on, you know, most of the major policy issues.

00:24:54.093 --> 00:24:56.163
And I was on the education reform team.

00:24:56.192 --> 00:24:56.343
Okay.

00:24:56.492 --> 00:25:03.843
And on the civil society team, like looking for what are some innovative community solutions Yep.

00:25:03.962 --> 00:25:07.712
To big problems like home, homelessness, addiction, poverty.

00:25:07.712 --> 00:25:08.042
Sure.

00:25:08.403 --> 00:25:15.032
Truancy that the, the government is not doing, but people in nonprofits or civic or combinations, partnerships.

00:25:15.032 --> 00:25:15.303
Yeah.

00:25:15.333 --> 00:25:19.502
And we, and we got a grant to go around the country and, and interesting study ones and write about it.

00:25:19.502 --> 00:25:21.423
So I was on education and civil society.

00:25:22.113 --> 00:25:25.383
But my friends would always ask me like, Greg, you're working for a think tank.

00:25:25.383 --> 00:25:26.972
Like, what do you, what do you do?

00:25:26.972 --> 00:25:37.323
Do you just like literally sit in your office and just think and kind of cogitate and no, you're researching, you're interviewing people, you're doing field visits, you're doing surveys, you're, you know, you're pub.

00:25:37.323 --> 00:25:40.653
And then we ended up, uh, publishing books and research reports.

00:25:40.833 --> 00:25:45.932
And then out of the think tank we had the opportunity to launch a startup foundation too.

00:25:45.962 --> 00:25:46.143
Oh.

00:25:46.353 --> 00:25:48.482
So there was a, um, small.

00:25:49.137 --> 00:25:50.218
The education reform thing.

00:25:50.218 --> 00:25:50.998
Education reform.

00:25:50.998 --> 00:25:51.087
Yeah.

00:25:51.087 --> 00:25:51.327
Exactly.

00:25:51.327 --> 00:25:52.948
Can you mention the think tank or is that secret?

00:25:52.948 --> 00:25:53.008
Yeah.

00:25:53.038 --> 00:25:53.518
No, not at all.

00:25:53.518 --> 00:25:55.048
It's, it's called the Hudson Institute.

00:25:55.077 --> 00:25:55.438
Okay.

00:25:55.617 --> 00:25:59.067
And they are kind of, uh, center rights.

00:25:59.188 --> 00:25:59.218
Okay.

00:25:59.218 --> 00:26:02.968
But, but their kind of niche was being contrarian.

00:26:03.478 --> 00:26:03.508
Okay.

00:26:03.508 --> 00:26:09.057
And so Herman Kahan was the founder and he was a game theorist on thermonuclear war Oh.

00:26:09.057 --> 00:26:11.157
Ing back in kind of the fifties and sixties.

00:26:11.607 --> 00:26:17.397
And so he said, let's, let's go out and kind of find things that go against the conventional wisdom.

00:26:17.488 --> 00:26:17.667
Yeah.

00:26:17.667 --> 00:26:19.468
Kind of be, that was their kind of niche.

00:26:19.587 --> 00:26:24.567
And they were based in, you know, New York originally, then Indianapolis, and then we, I was in the DC Okay.

00:26:24.567 --> 00:26:25.167
Kind of arm.

00:26:25.468 --> 00:26:31.258
Well, it's funny not to interrupt, but my, uh, my blog, which I don't know if I've sent you, do I send you my newsletters as well?

00:26:31.347 --> 00:26:32.428
I do, yes.

00:26:32.428 --> 00:26:32.548
Yeah.

00:26:32.577 --> 00:26:35.008
So my blog is called The Loco Perspective.

00:26:35.157 --> 00:26:35.307
Yeah.

00:26:35.488 --> 00:26:38.097
And it's kind of like the crazy perspective a little bit.

00:26:38.097 --> 00:26:38.157
Yeah.

00:26:38.157 --> 00:26:40.048
Or the underdeveloped perspective.

00:26:40.137 --> 00:26:40.198
Yeah.

00:26:40.198 --> 00:26:45.028
And sometimes I just write about other things or whatever, but yeah, definitely very much so.

00:26:45.028 --> 00:26:46.018
I've tried to.

00:26:46.968 --> 00:26:50.357
Pick up the untouchable topics that nobody's talking about, but somebody should.

00:26:50.383 --> 00:26:50.673
Yeah.

00:26:50.678 --> 00:26:51.377
Yeah.

00:26:51.384 --> 00:26:51.917
A little bit.

00:26:51.978 --> 00:26:54.752
And we like to focus not so much on left or right, right.

00:26:54.758 --> 00:26:56.432
But kinda what's missing from the equation.

00:26:56.432 --> 00:26:56.593
Right.

00:26:56.643 --> 00:26:58.127
Who's not talking about this that's important?

00:26:58.127 --> 00:27:00.317
Not doing it right, or what's not working and why.

00:27:00.317 --> 00:27:16.367
I try to get a little bit, so sorry to interrupt again, but the, like, when I think about education and civil society, like things haven't been going in a good direction for the last 20 years, so I guess your Hudson Institute, they should have done more of the things that you said that they should do.

00:27:16.367 --> 00:27:18.137
Or what's, what are we doing wrong?

00:27:18.228 --> 00:27:18.587
Yeah.

00:27:18.647 --> 00:27:20.117
Um, what have we done wrong?

00:27:20.448 --> 00:27:20.657
Yeah.

00:27:20.657 --> 00:27:27.228
It feels like an overreliance on testing, you know, teaching to the tests for like high schools and things like that has been a Yeah.

00:27:27.228 --> 00:27:28.067
A challenge.

00:27:28.248 --> 00:27:28.577
Yeah.

00:27:28.847 --> 00:27:29.268
Um.

00:27:29.762 --> 00:27:30.393
Yeah, you're right.

00:27:30.423 --> 00:27:42.752
I mean, we have enormous education challenges and I think we're, you know, for a country this wealthy and this successful, we are doing a, a poor job compared to what we should be doing.

00:27:42.873 --> 00:27:43.143
Yeah.

00:27:43.262 --> 00:27:51.782
In K to 12 education, I would say in higher education actually, where the envy of the world, there's a lot of problems there, including the cost and all sorts of stuff.

00:27:51.782 --> 00:27:52.113
Right.

00:27:52.202 --> 00:27:57.063
But still, I mean, in terms of the amount of options and some of the quality of the research and yeah.

00:27:57.063 --> 00:27:59.313
Et cetera, it, it's much better off.

00:27:59.553 --> 00:28:03.722
You know, I think that, um, one of the things is.

00:28:04.387 --> 00:28:12.458
You know, we've got this school system where we've really standardized so much of it, it's a kind of a factory model.

00:28:12.637 --> 00:28:12.758
Mm-hmm.

00:28:13.117 --> 00:28:15.698
You know, in including we're, and kids are all different.

00:28:15.847 --> 00:28:17.048
And kids are all different.

00:28:17.167 --> 00:28:17.438
Yeah.

00:28:17.438 --> 00:28:22.508
And, and so, and that, we'll come back to that later if we want to talk about the online education startup.

00:28:22.627 --> 00:28:24.188
We're trying to solve that issue.

00:28:24.367 --> 00:28:24.577
Okay.

00:28:24.607 --> 00:28:32.468
But I think this kind of assembly line where you, for efficiency reasons and kind of management and bureaucracy, we're gonna make things with the school district.

00:28:32.468 --> 00:28:37.478
And the school district's gonna have a standard curriculum and it's gonna have standard policies and the schools are gonna do this.

00:28:37.478 --> 00:28:40.762
And if you're a gifted and talented kid, then you can take these specific classes, but Yeah.

00:28:40.768 --> 00:28:41.917
Yeah.

00:28:41.917 --> 00:28:45.548
And then we're also, we're still, we're still on the agrarian calendar in our schools.

00:28:45.577 --> 00:28:45.698
Yeah.

00:28:45.698 --> 00:28:46.357
You think about it.

00:28:46.357 --> 00:28:46.627
Yeah.

00:28:47.018 --> 00:28:51.847
And so, uh, and then in terms of, you know, not using technology very well.

00:28:52.327 --> 00:29:00.067
Uh, and not really reaching students and, you know, finding a way in, in the way we train teachers and whatnot.

00:29:00.518 --> 00:29:06.428
Teacher pay, we, you know, compare, you know, Finland, if you're a teacher in Finland, they pay them.

00:29:06.428 --> 00:29:08.798
You know, Kurt, you mentioned the other day.

00:29:08.827 --> 00:29:08.887
Yeah.

00:29:08.887 --> 00:29:11.258
You know, you've got an exchange student from Finland have two more days.

00:29:11.262 --> 00:29:11.678
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:11.678 --> 00:29:19.387
Then they've got, they're famous for, it's very prestigious and they pay them real money and over here it's, you know, almost hard to make a living wage for a lot of teachers.

00:29:19.387 --> 00:29:19.538
Yeah.

00:29:19.538 --> 00:29:20.347
At least entry level.

00:29:20.542 --> 00:29:21.472
Yeah, exactly.

00:29:21.532 --> 00:29:24.022
Um, so, um, so real issues.

00:29:24.022 --> 00:29:31.012
Well, and like the really good teachers, it's really hard to separate them from the mediocre teachers.

00:29:31.012 --> 00:29:32.692
It seems like they just kind of Yeah.

00:29:32.778 --> 00:29:39.202
You know, you, you get paid more for being there longer, but there is very little merit related to it, except for how much Yeah.

00:29:39.262 --> 00:29:40.163
The principal likes you.

00:29:40.403 --> 00:29:40.853
That's right.

00:29:40.883 --> 00:29:41.093
Yeah.

00:29:41.097 --> 00:29:42.952
And, and the career path is bizarre.

00:29:42.952 --> 00:29:47.333
It's, you know, if you're a really good teacher, they wanna pull you into administration.

00:29:47.363 --> 00:29:47.692
Right.

00:29:47.752 --> 00:29:50.813
And for some people they wanna do that, and it's a big raise and response.

00:29:50.813 --> 00:29:50.903
Sure.

00:29:50.903 --> 00:29:53.363
But for a lot of people's, no, I, I, I, I want to teach.

00:29:53.393 --> 00:29:53.482
Right?

00:29:53.482 --> 00:29:54.682
And I can be a master teaching.

00:29:55.133 --> 00:29:57.413
And, and so it's this very odd system.

00:29:57.413 --> 00:29:59.603
And so within the think tank.

00:30:00.387 --> 00:30:02.397
The foundation startup that came out of it.

00:30:02.397 --> 00:30:05.728
We ended up looking a lot at Gooder school choice.

00:30:05.817 --> 00:30:06.208
Mm-hmm.

00:30:06.508 --> 00:30:13.167
As one mechanism to kind of disrupt and bring some innovation and experimentation in there.

00:30:13.167 --> 00:30:20.728
And so we got a big grant from the Pew Charitable Trust to study charter schools, and it was the largest study of public charter schools at the time.

00:30:20.758 --> 00:30:21.028
Oh wow.

00:30:21.238 --> 00:30:33.837
And so we went around and we surveyed thousands of students, teachers, parents of charter schools, and we went around and we did a hundred site visits around the country and we interviewed the principals and teachers and the founders of charter schools.

00:30:34.167 --> 00:30:36.657
And we did the largest study of charter schools at the time.

00:30:36.657 --> 00:30:41.968
And, and that was my first book that I co-authored is Charter Schools in Action Renewing Public Education.

00:30:42.028 --> 00:30:42.627
Oh, interesting.

00:30:42.748 --> 00:30:44.367
Uh, that came out in the year 2000.

00:30:44.367 --> 00:30:51.688
So that was probably a significant mover of that, um, industry, if not like a big one.

00:30:51.688 --> 00:30:55.827
You know, I sure it's this and that, but charter schools have what probably.

00:30:56.807 --> 00:31:00.048
Three times, four times as many students as they had 20 years ago.

00:31:00.173 --> 00:31:00.462
Yeah.

00:31:00.468 --> 00:31:00.617
Yeah.

00:31:00.678 --> 00:31:01.577
If not way more than that.

00:31:01.577 --> 00:31:02.057
They've grown.

00:31:02.057 --> 00:31:02.268
Yeah.

00:31:02.268 --> 00:31:03.258
Grown tremendously.

00:31:03.258 --> 00:31:05.778
And back then it was a little bit more of an unknown.

00:31:05.778 --> 00:31:05.867
Right.

00:31:05.867 --> 00:31:06.948
More of the wild west.

00:31:06.948 --> 00:31:08.688
And so there wasn't a lot of visibility.

00:31:08.688 --> 00:31:10.788
And so we did this big national study.

00:31:10.907 --> 00:31:11.028
Hmm.

00:31:11.178 --> 00:31:21.827
And we're able to look at, um, things like student outcomes and governance and teacher quality and, and finances and the buildings.

00:31:21.827 --> 00:31:22.157
Sure.

00:31:22.488 --> 00:31:27.798
And, you know, shed some early light on it, including some of the issues that, you know, they're still struggling with.

00:31:27.798 --> 00:31:29.478
How do you handle all that data?

00:31:30.288 --> 00:31:37.188
Like, how do you get your arms around it if you're, if you're serving a thousand charter schools and 10,000 people that work at charter schools?

00:31:37.218 --> 00:31:37.667
Yeah.

00:31:37.877 --> 00:31:43.307
Well, you know, we had a team, there were four of us initially on the study, and then three of us co-authored the book.

00:31:43.307 --> 00:31:51.827
We got some help from some researchers at another think tank to kind of, uh, comb through some of the early data Yeah.

00:31:51.917 --> 00:31:53.657
And using technology as well.

00:31:53.867 --> 00:31:53.958
Mm-hmm.

00:31:54.198 --> 00:31:58.998
But it was, it was a big, it was a massive, massive, mostly it was just a lot of work.

00:31:58.998 --> 00:32:03.917
It was a lot of work and, and it was basically a bunch of individual reports over years and then the book.

00:32:04.067 --> 00:32:07.698
So we kind of gradually, it wasn't kind of like a year and we gotta get the book out.

00:32:07.728 --> 00:32:08.147
Oh, interesting.

00:32:08.298 --> 00:32:08.538
Yeah.

00:32:08.538 --> 00:32:10.758
We were able to kind of follow this over multi-year, can see a trend there.

00:32:10.817 --> 00:32:11.028
Yeah.

00:32:11.028 --> 00:32:11.538
Project.

00:32:11.538 --> 00:32:11.778
Yeah.

00:32:11.778 --> 00:32:12.557
So it's fascinating.

00:32:12.557 --> 00:32:19.307
But out of the think tank, there's this opportunity that someone passed away in a small foundation in Dayton, Ohio.

00:32:19.397 --> 00:32:19.637
Okay.

00:32:19.637 --> 00:32:24.887
Which, which coincidentally, I went to junior high school near there.

00:32:25.008 --> 00:32:25.397
Okay.

00:32:25.458 --> 00:32:28.458
And so I, I was in DC but I had this kinda random connection.

00:32:28.972 --> 00:32:34.222
And, and so all of a sudden$40 million of assets transferred into this foundation.

00:32:34.583 --> 00:32:34.613
Oh.

00:32:34.732 --> 00:32:38.692
And they basically said, we want to do it towards K to 12 education.

00:32:39.232 --> 00:32:43.553
And other than that, and then my boss at the think tank Yeah.

00:32:43.613 --> 00:32:46.042
Um, you know, nominated you for that.

00:32:46.042 --> 00:32:50.242
Basically said, Hey Greg, do you want to help me build this foundation from scratch?

00:32:50.333 --> 00:32:50.813
Oh, wow.

00:32:50.873 --> 00:32:52.613
So it was a startup foundation.

00:32:52.762 --> 00:32:53.002
Yeah.

00:32:53.032 --> 00:32:54.863
So we had a couple million, well we had 40 million though.

00:32:55.133 --> 00:32:55.432
Yeah.

00:32:55.462 --> 00:32:56.032
So that was nice.

00:32:56.032 --> 00:32:56.242
Yeah.

00:32:56.242 --> 00:32:58.373
So an annual budget of a couple million dollars.

00:32:58.373 --> 00:32:58.973
Yep, yep, yep.

00:32:59.393 --> 00:33:02.363
And so we had to staff it up and what are we gonna do?

00:33:02.512 --> 00:33:02.873
Yeah.

00:33:03.353 --> 00:33:07.762
Write the budget, build a website, hire people, you know, and, and build it up.

00:33:07.762 --> 00:33:11.542
And, and so we said, let's do one half think tank, one half action tank.

00:33:11.542 --> 00:33:14.573
So we can actually take some of the stuff we've been researching.

00:33:14.663 --> 00:33:14.992
Yeah.

00:33:15.053 --> 00:33:16.643
And we could implement some of the stuff.

00:33:16.643 --> 00:33:16.644
Study.

00:33:16.644 --> 00:33:16.644
Yeah.

00:33:16.650 --> 00:33:17.998
That's a little bit like the, uh.

00:33:18.857 --> 00:33:25.998
Kind of commercialization of technology that universities are increasingly focused on when they come up with some cool stuff, like why not make some money on it?

00:33:26.028 --> 00:33:27.137
Yeah, exactly.

00:33:27.137 --> 00:33:28.038
Really interesting.

00:33:28.038 --> 00:33:28.097
Yeah.

00:33:28.218 --> 00:33:33.137
So, um, and then you do coaching as well.

00:33:33.167 --> 00:33:39.048
Your clients, are they the CEOs of organizations or director levels and things like that?

00:33:39.048 --> 00:33:39.528
Depends.

00:33:39.702 --> 00:33:45.282
Yeah, no, actually, so, so in my work, I, I cross personal development and leadership.

00:33:45.313 --> 00:33:51.252
And so for my, for my coaching, I like to focus on people in transitions in their life.

00:33:51.313 --> 00:33:51.702
Okay.

00:33:51.792 --> 00:33:54.883
And I, so I do, I do what's called integrated coaching.

00:33:55.002 --> 00:33:55.303
Okay.

00:33:55.387 --> 00:33:57.762
And, and so I like to connect.

00:33:57.972 --> 00:34:03.432
So a lot of people come, come to me and they'll say, Hey, I'm thinking about changing jobs and I need some help or whatnot.

00:34:03.432 --> 00:34:15.012
And I say, okay, well there's people out there who do that, but if you're gonna work with me, we're gonna back up and we're gonna get to know you as a human being and your values and your strengths and your passions and where you come from and whatnot.

00:34:15.193 --> 00:34:20.262
And we're gonna think about, you know, what you've done and what you liked, and what went well, and what didn't go well, and whatnot.

00:34:20.532 --> 00:34:21.402
And we're gonna put that.

00:34:21.768 --> 00:34:28.878
Deep dive perspective and then we're gonna kind of use some of the principles of design thinking and kinda lean startup innovation methods.

00:34:28.938 --> 00:34:29.027
Yeah.

00:34:29.027 --> 00:34:31.367
To play around with some possible futures.

00:34:31.847 --> 00:34:34.637
So connect the personal and the professional basically.

00:34:34.637 --> 00:34:37.697
That sounds a little bit like that life entrepreneur book that you were talking about.

00:34:37.728 --> 00:34:38.657
Yeah, very much.

00:34:38.717 --> 00:34:40.097
Um, kind of designing.

00:34:40.637 --> 00:34:43.398
The life that you want and, and doing it like a business plan.

00:34:43.728 --> 00:34:43.998
Yeah.

00:34:43.998 --> 00:34:45.947
You know, here's my personal business plan.

00:34:46.137 --> 00:34:46.307
Yeah.

00:34:46.307 --> 00:34:47.148
Or my personal plan.

00:34:47.268 --> 00:34:48.197
Yeah, exactly.

00:34:48.233 --> 00:34:56.447
And, and, and so that book very much followed kind of, almost like a, the flow of it was almost like a strategic plan of your life.

00:34:56.538 --> 00:34:56.628
Mm-hmm.

00:34:56.867 --> 00:35:10.487
Although in retrospect, I've come to, you know, I've, I've been involved in a scale up tech company and, you know, I've, I've learned a lot about business modeling and I taught business modeling, uh, in Sweden.

00:35:10.847 --> 00:35:17.358
And so I really come to think of it more of kind of like, I, I like the more like the business model canvas and the lean canvas.

00:35:17.358 --> 00:35:17.418
Yeah.

00:35:17.418 --> 00:35:22.277
Now, now that it's much more known as a metaphor as opposed to a business plan.

00:35:22.277 --> 00:35:22.367
Right.

00:35:22.367 --> 00:35:23.717
Because I agree with Steve Blank.

00:35:23.717 --> 00:35:29.867
He said that his business plans for when there's enough uncertainty and complexity, they can kinda lock you in.

00:35:29.898 --> 00:35:30.047
Yeah.

00:35:30.047 --> 00:35:30.797
Prematurely.

00:35:30.797 --> 00:35:30.978
Yeah.

00:35:30.978 --> 00:35:30.978
Yeah.

00:35:31.038 --> 00:35:33.708
So you want that flexibility of a tool, like a one page canvas.

00:35:33.713 --> 00:35:34.068
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:34.068 --> 00:35:34.967
A loose tool.

00:35:34.998 --> 00:35:35.327
Yeah.

00:35:35.418 --> 00:35:37.998
Update it every month or every three months if you want to as Yeah.

00:35:38.003 --> 00:35:38.092
Yeah.

00:35:38.097 --> 00:35:38.327
And it's.

00:35:38.472 --> 00:35:39.882
New doors might open.

00:35:39.913 --> 00:35:40.152
Yeah.

00:35:40.152 --> 00:35:42.253
And then you're in the build measure, learn feedback loop.

00:35:42.253 --> 00:35:45.342
You're experimenting and then you're learning what's working, what's not.

00:35:45.347 --> 00:35:45.557
Yeah.

00:35:45.563 --> 00:35:45.762
Yeah.

00:35:45.793 --> 00:35:46.543
And you revise.

00:35:46.572 --> 00:35:47.398
Yeah, I dig it.

00:35:47.427 --> 00:35:47.717
Yeah.

00:35:47.742 --> 00:35:50.293
Um, how about the civil society part?

00:35:50.713 --> 00:35:50.983
Yeah.

00:35:50.983 --> 00:36:10.932
Like we're an interesting, you know, you mentioned the center Right Think tank and we're in MAGA country now for the second time, which is, you know, it's kind of funny when you think back to like how much disdain Trump had from Republican party leadership when he came into the field in 2015 or whatever.

00:36:10.932 --> 00:36:10.992
Yeah.

00:36:11.592 --> 00:36:17.443
And, uh, I wrote one of my blogs that Bill Clinton kind of talked him into it'cause he thought he would be a bold in the China shop kind of deal.

00:36:18.043 --> 00:36:20.983
And uh, and then, you know, he kind of beat him.

00:36:20.983 --> 00:36:21.492
Mm-hmm.

00:36:21.498 --> 00:36:24.222
And then the Democratic Party kind of got so.

00:36:25.172 --> 00:36:31.052
Crazy, uh, trying to beat him, that they kind of torn themselves apart almost, it feels like.

00:36:31.143 --> 00:36:31.592
Yeah.

00:36:31.862 --> 00:36:34.322
Well there's disdain across.

00:36:34.353 --> 00:36:34.682
Yeah.

00:36:34.682 --> 00:36:35.072
Both.

00:36:35.103 --> 00:36:36.722
So much disdain, almost disgusted.

00:36:36.873 --> 00:36:37.893
Yeah, there is, yeah.

00:36:37.893 --> 00:36:47.552
And, and to me, you know, I gotta say, just as an American who's also lived abroad, I'm really concerned about that, that kind of the social fabric and the, the yeah.

00:36:47.552 --> 00:36:53.432
The breakdown in trust and, and I think for me, you know, personally, um, living.

00:36:53.793 --> 00:37:00.635
Abroad for 10 years, including the time when Trump, you know, came to power initially first and whatnot time.

00:37:00.635 --> 00:37:01.088
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:01.092 --> 00:37:05.313
And, and looking back at, at my country and seeing and, and actually, so, so we lived in Sweden.

00:37:05.313 --> 00:37:06.333
My wife is Swedish.

00:37:06.362 --> 00:37:06.663
Okay.

00:37:06.753 --> 00:37:08.733
And our daughters were born here in Colorado.

00:37:08.762 --> 00:37:10.833
And they were three in one when we moved over there.

00:37:10.862 --> 00:37:11.253
Okay.

00:37:11.282 --> 00:37:13.172
And then we were there for 10 years and then we came back.

00:37:13.177 --> 00:37:13.327
Yeah.

00:37:13.333 --> 00:37:13.532
Yeah.

00:37:13.532 --> 00:37:14.193
Five, six years ago.

00:37:14.193 --> 00:37:16.052
Oh, that's a neat time for them to be able to experience.

00:37:16.143 --> 00:37:16.443
Yeah.

00:37:16.443 --> 00:37:17.432
It was really wonderful.

00:37:17.523 --> 00:37:21.873
All sorts of experiences with the family there and a farm and the countryside and very, very healthy.

00:37:22.143 --> 00:37:26.583
But Sweden, I would say generally is a very high trust society.

00:37:26.612 --> 00:37:26.882
Yeah.

00:37:27.092 --> 00:37:29.882
Where now, of course it's much smaller and you got 10, 11 million people.

00:37:29.882 --> 00:37:29.943
Yeah.

00:37:29.943 --> 00:37:33.632
So it's much, you know, it's like one and a half states on average.

00:37:33.632 --> 00:37:33.753
Right.

00:37:33.753 --> 00:37:34.262
In the United States.

00:37:34.262 --> 00:37:36.152
Well, like Finland and Colorado are about the same.

00:37:36.648 --> 00:37:40.733
Yeah, almost the same size and about the same population, exactly 5 million or so in Sweden spice.

00:37:40.873 --> 00:37:45.677
So it's much more manageable in that sense versus what, 333 million here, this kind of thing.

00:37:45.978 --> 00:37:50.268
And, and also it, it's, well, he, hell, in Sweden, if you've got blonde hair, blue eyes raise your hand.

00:37:50.268 --> 00:37:53.958
And like 80% of people are like, it's more homogenous that way.

00:37:53.958 --> 00:37:57.047
But they've, they've had big wave of refugees True.

00:37:57.047 --> 00:37:57.947
That they've taken in.

00:37:57.947 --> 00:37:57.949
Yeah.

00:37:57.954 --> 00:38:10.458
So Sweden and Germany were the big, you know, uh, accepters of acceptors of refugees, Syrians, Syrias, especially Afghans and Syrians and a lot of Kurds, just a lot of people all over Lebanon, you know, Iraq, Iran.

00:38:10.458 --> 00:38:13.487
So, and, and so that's, that's changed the society.

00:38:13.577 --> 00:38:16.217
It's much more diverse and it's put strains on the social fabric.

00:38:16.217 --> 00:38:16.367
Sure.

00:38:16.367 --> 00:38:18.108
But still, it's, it's a high trust society.

00:38:18.137 --> 00:38:18.378
Yeah.

00:38:18.887 --> 00:38:25.847
And, and so here, you know, the division and the disdain, I think, you know, it's really, to me it's really poisoning the well.

00:38:26.217 --> 00:38:29.907
And, uh, it, it's really hard to get that back.

00:38:30.237 --> 00:38:35.547
And so, you know, I appreciate people who are open to different points of points of view.

00:38:35.668 --> 00:38:35.818
Yeah.

00:38:35.818 --> 00:38:38.338
And my views have changed a lot o over time.

00:38:38.757 --> 00:38:56.007
And um, you know, I think I just, we need to come back because at the end of the day, we have so many shared values and so many common things, but it's like we're on opposite teams and we're just, you know, we're just, well, and trust is the lubricant of society besides Yeah, that's right.

00:38:56.007 --> 00:39:00.447
You know, everything is just easier if you trust the person that you're doing business with.

00:39:00.538 --> 00:39:00.777
Yeah.

00:39:00.777 --> 00:39:00.862
That's right.

00:39:00.862 --> 00:39:04.378
Or the doctor that's giving you a prescription or whatever.

00:39:04.438 --> 00:39:04.768
Yeah.

00:39:05.068 --> 00:39:06.807
Um, so yeah, that's right.

00:39:06.807 --> 00:39:08.847
Investing in that I think would be useful for sure.

00:39:08.967 --> 00:39:09.237
Yeah.

00:39:09.628 --> 00:39:14.128
Um, so let's talk to your experience in Sweden.

00:39:14.248 --> 00:39:14.338
Mm-hmm.

00:39:15.027 --> 00:39:18.659
Um, you were, what did you say, the inno innovative something something something.

00:39:18.688 --> 00:39:20.068
What was your kind of first role there?

00:39:20.447 --> 00:39:20.717
Yeah.

00:39:20.717 --> 00:39:22.847
So when we moved to Sweden, yeah.

00:39:22.907 --> 00:39:29.148
Uh, I ended up teaching entrepreneurship for, so I was based at the Royal Institute of Technology.

00:39:29.177 --> 00:39:29.628
Oh, there I heard it.

00:39:29.688 --> 00:39:29.777
Yeah.

00:39:29.807 --> 00:39:32.103
Which is like the MIT of Sweden, basically.

00:39:32.132 --> 00:39:32.422
Okay.

00:39:32.427 --> 00:39:32.867
Okay, cool.

00:39:32.927 --> 00:39:35.208
And, but it was the Royal Institute, Kurt.

00:39:35.208 --> 00:39:39.588
So my boss's boss's, boss's boss's boss was the king of Sweden, basically.

00:39:39.588 --> 00:39:40.248
Oh really?

00:39:40.338 --> 00:39:41.628
Uh, I say that joke.

00:39:41.688 --> 00:39:47.987
He was never on campus or anything like that, but you know, it is And is the king of Sweden, um, got power in Sweden.

00:39:48.302 --> 00:39:48.543
It.

00:39:48.543 --> 00:39:49.443
It's more ceremonial.

00:39:49.443 --> 00:39:50.012
More ceremonial.

00:39:50.012 --> 00:39:50.132
Yeah.

00:39:50.132 --> 00:39:50.822
Figure figurehead.

00:39:50.822 --> 00:39:54.273
There's a royal family there and it's more, I more similar, the tabloids UK, whatever.

00:39:54.277 --> 00:39:54.387
Yeah.

00:39:54.438 --> 00:39:54.788
Stuff.

00:39:54.793 --> 00:39:54.963
Yeah.

00:39:54.963 --> 00:39:57.092
I mean they're, they, they do a lot of charitable stuff.

00:39:57.092 --> 00:39:57.273
Sure.

00:39:57.273 --> 00:39:58.472
A lot of civil society stuff.

00:39:58.503 --> 00:39:58.592
Yep.

00:39:58.592 --> 00:40:00.003
Is basically mostly what they do.

00:40:00.663 --> 00:40:10.563
It's mostly a formality, but, so I was based there at the technical university, but within the Department of Economics and Management or Industrial Economics and Management.

00:40:10.563 --> 00:40:14.492
But I was working for a consortium of five different universities.

00:40:14.672 --> 00:40:14.733
Hmm.

00:40:14.793 --> 00:40:19.532
So I was teaching applied entrepreneurship to students from our technical school.

00:40:19.592 --> 00:40:19.833
Yep.

00:40:20.012 --> 00:40:22.983
The business school, the medical university.

00:40:23.012 --> 00:40:23.432
Oh, interesting.

00:40:23.463 --> 00:40:24.572
Which is very prestigious.

00:40:24.603 --> 00:40:27.693
The Stockholm University, the city university.

00:40:27.782 --> 00:40:27.932
Okay.

00:40:27.992 --> 00:40:29.342
And then the design school.

00:40:29.463 --> 00:40:29.913
Oh, interesting.

00:40:29.913 --> 00:40:31.563
And so it was really cool.

00:40:31.713 --> 00:40:34.833
And then I was teaching in English because my Swedish isn't goodness.

00:40:34.833 --> 00:40:36.902
So I'd have a lot of exchange students Oh wow.

00:40:36.902 --> 00:40:37.893
From all over the world.

00:40:37.898 --> 00:40:38.068
Yeah.

00:40:38.072 --> 00:40:38.222
Yeah.

00:40:38.228 --> 00:40:40.893
And so I had, I had large classes, so literally all over the world.

00:40:40.893 --> 00:40:47.972
Tons from Asia, Africa, you know, you name it, not as many from North and South America, but you know, all over Europe obviously.

00:40:48.677 --> 00:40:53.418
But so to bring people together, so we had lawyers and architects Sure.

00:40:53.418 --> 00:40:56.027
And designers and you know, people of fashion.

00:40:56.032 --> 00:40:56.322
Yeah.

00:40:56.327 --> 00:40:56.628
Yeah.

00:40:56.628 --> 00:40:57.557
And, but they're there.

00:40:57.557 --> 00:40:59.268
And I was teaching applied entrepreneurship.

00:40:59.268 --> 00:41:01.097
So one of the classes was ideation.

00:41:01.097 --> 00:41:03.467
So coming up with innovative new venture ideas.

00:41:03.708 --> 00:41:07.907
So of course they have to do a group project and they have to together come up with something Yeah.

00:41:07.907 --> 00:41:13.938
And then do an elevator pitch and write a, not a business plan, but a kind of, a kind of case, least a case about it.

00:41:13.938 --> 00:41:14.208
Yeah.

00:41:14.568 --> 00:41:22.967
And I was teaching business model innovation and, and then I was also teaching, uh, leadership over there to Swedish executive MBA students.

00:41:22.998 --> 00:41:23.117
Hmm.

00:41:23.628 --> 00:41:33.978
So most of what I was doing over there, you know, finishing the Triple Crown leadership book and, and then teaching, and then I did some side speaking in Europe and Asia and kind of some side projects.

00:41:34.007 --> 00:41:34.128
Yeah.

00:41:35.088 --> 00:41:46.007
One of the phrases I like, uh, and I don't even remember the, the Source, some old newsletter I used to read, but kind of the foundation of all economics is, comes down to two words, add value.

00:41:46.128 --> 00:41:46.547
Mm.

00:41:47.027 --> 00:41:47.507
And.

00:41:47.853 --> 00:41:48.873
I think that's true.

00:41:48.873 --> 00:41:58.112
But when you think about applied entrepreneurship, you know it's adding value, but it's adding value in a way that you've got some competitive advantage.

00:41:58.172 --> 00:41:58.443
Yeah.

00:41:58.532 --> 00:41:58.893
Right.

00:41:58.893 --> 00:42:00.182
Like, it, it's not just add value.

00:42:00.182 --> 00:42:02.822
'cause then you're a, you can dig ditches and add value, but Right.

00:42:03.483 --> 00:42:04.413
May or may not get hired.

00:42:04.713 --> 00:42:06.003
Yeah, that's right.

00:42:06.003 --> 00:42:06.213
Yeah.

00:42:06.213 --> 00:42:15.782
And so I would encourage my students, and this was hard'cause I mean, innovation is hard, but, uh, so we looked at what are the key aspects of entrepreneurship?

00:42:15.813 --> 00:42:21.963
Well, one of the things, I mean, the very word entrepreneur means one who undertakes like a project.

00:42:22.112 --> 00:42:22.443
Oh, interesting.

00:42:22.472 --> 00:42:23.552
One who takes action.

00:42:23.552 --> 00:42:24.603
That's what the French word means.

00:42:24.902 --> 00:42:25.172
Right.

00:42:25.177 --> 00:42:27.572
So it, it's like the acting person is a good way to think about it.

00:42:27.572 --> 00:42:27.782
Yeah.

00:42:27.782 --> 00:42:27.784
Yeah.

00:42:27.873 --> 00:42:30.932
So you can't be one of those people who's like, thinking around too much.

00:42:30.932 --> 00:42:30.992
Yeah.

00:42:30.992 --> 00:42:32.972
You're just a big ideas guy on and make stuff happen.

00:42:32.972 --> 00:42:35.463
You gotta put stuff out there, you gotta ship product, you know?

00:42:35.463 --> 00:42:35.672
Right.

00:42:35.677 --> 00:42:35.918
Mm-hmm.

00:42:36.182 --> 00:42:37.233
So that's one thing.

00:42:37.443 --> 00:42:43.438
Um, you've gotta generate value to your point, but you also have to find a way to capture value, right.

00:42:43.458 --> 00:42:45.213
So that it's sustainable business model.

00:42:45.918 --> 00:42:48.708
And ideally you want to innovate too.

00:42:48.737 --> 00:42:51.708
You want to do things differently that are adding value, right?

00:42:51.708 --> 00:43:05.327
And so that, that tends to be part of, you know, the entrepreneurship equation as opposed to just so, and that's, you know, difficult to do and it's, it's a high standard, one of the, and then you gotta be resourceful, you gotta marshal resources creatively, et cetera.

00:43:05.447 --> 00:43:15.498
One of the things that's been interesting is the number of, um, different businesses that have, I guess, sprung forth from the shared economy kind of element.

00:43:15.498 --> 00:43:18.768
You know, I guess it was Uber first, right?

00:43:18.858 --> 00:43:21.557
Or maybe it was VRBO even kind of first, right?

00:43:21.557 --> 00:43:25.728
And then Airbnb came along and Uber and ride share services.

00:43:25.728 --> 00:43:33.737
But there's also now, you know, heavy construction equipment leasing on a shared model and just all kinds of different things.

00:43:33.918 --> 00:43:34.128
Yeah.

00:43:34.307 --> 00:43:36.827
So like applying that.

00:43:37.983 --> 00:43:45.152
Innovation to a number of different industries has been a spark that created a, a, at least a somewhat sustainable company a few times now.

00:43:45.572 --> 00:43:45.813
Yeah.

00:43:46.112 --> 00:43:50.342
Is there other things, you know, AI put AI on it and turn it into a business.

00:43:50.432 --> 00:43:53.282
Is that, is that, is that part of the model these days?

00:43:54.333 --> 00:43:55.353
I think it is these days.

00:43:55.353 --> 00:43:56.282
I mean, it's incredible.

00:43:56.313 --> 00:44:00.782
It's like in the pace better than c, b, D, you know, five years ago, put CCB D on it.

00:44:01.262 --> 00:44:01.713
I love it.

00:44:01.713 --> 00:44:01.922
Yeah.

00:44:01.952 --> 00:44:02.702
Cure all your ills.

00:44:02.733 --> 00:44:03.813
It's completely changing.

00:44:03.813 --> 00:44:09.932
I think the, the game for entrepreneurs, but also for entrepreneurship education where you have chat GBT and questions.

00:44:09.932 --> 00:44:10.353
Sure.

00:44:10.382 --> 00:44:16.262
You're supposed to come up with ideas, but, and then, but, but really what you want do is come up with five good ideas for me.

00:44:16.353 --> 00:44:17.193
Exactly.

00:44:17.193 --> 00:44:17.253
Yeah.

00:44:18.632 --> 00:44:19.382
And then so.

00:44:19.833 --> 00:44:21.873
Part of my teaching was that applied entrepreneurship.

00:44:21.873 --> 00:44:28.802
Another part I, we'd also get students in an entrepreneurship and innovation maggea program, which is a one year master's.

00:44:29.043 --> 00:44:31.503
And a bunch of them were interested in corporate innovation.

00:44:31.742 --> 00:44:31.952
Hmm.

00:44:32.043 --> 00:44:37.983
And so they didn't want to go out and start their own companies entrepreneurship more, they wanted to be the intrapreneurs, the inside entrepreneurs.

00:44:38.043 --> 00:44:41.822
And so we tried to teach in ways that was relevant to both the kind of Sure.

00:44:41.822 --> 00:44:43.773
Early stage startup or the corporate.

00:44:43.773 --> 00:44:46.652
And, and, and a lot of the principles do apply.

00:44:46.742 --> 00:44:47.103
Yeah.

00:44:47.492 --> 00:44:54.842
Um, and, and you don't, and a bunch of them are gonna actually end up going to work for a management consulting or a bank, but maybe they can be part of a skunk works.

00:44:54.902 --> 00:44:54.992
Sure.

00:44:54.992 --> 00:44:55.503
Or Mavericks.

00:44:55.503 --> 00:44:55.893
Yeah.

00:44:55.893 --> 00:44:55.893
Yeah.

00:44:55.952 --> 00:44:59.672
And that's really hard too, to innovate within the bureaucracy and the complexity.

00:44:59.702 --> 00:45:00.992
Well, that's what I was just thinking about.

00:45:00.992 --> 00:45:04.742
If you look at like big trends over time, you know, startups happen.

00:45:04.742 --> 00:45:14.132
Some of them grow slow, some of them grow fast and become middle market, and then typically get acquired by some other bigger company and then.

00:45:14.807 --> 00:45:19.487
Then their pace of job crea, job creation kind of slows and eventually goes down.

00:45:19.577 --> 00:45:19.818
Yeah.

00:45:19.907 --> 00:45:21.407
You know, big companies aren't Yeah.

00:45:21.407 --> 00:45:23.268
Really big job creators.

00:45:23.268 --> 00:45:24.108
It's little companies.

00:45:24.168 --> 00:45:24.438
Right.

00:45:24.797 --> 00:45:28.398
Um, and so if you could bring that sense of entrepreneurship to.

00:45:28.818 --> 00:45:34.068
Uh, big companies, you know, maybe they can continue to create new jobs'cause they create new things to do.

00:45:34.157 --> 00:45:34.668
That's right.

00:45:34.697 --> 00:45:38.867
I mean, we would look at the work of Clayton Christensen on disruptive innovation.

00:45:38.867 --> 00:45:38.958
Mm-hmm.

00:45:38.958 --> 00:45:44.568
And how many companies that were the market leader ended up getting surprised and out competed.

00:45:44.688 --> 00:45:45.018
Yeah.

00:45:45.077 --> 00:45:50.838
By somebody, you know, Kodak invented the digital cameras, you know, and all sorts of blockbuster, you go down the list.

00:45:50.838 --> 00:45:54.137
Netflix was originally the disruptor and then got disrupted, right.

00:45:54.137 --> 00:45:55.367
And started to disrupt again.

00:45:55.878 --> 00:45:58.157
So you go through this disruptive innovation graveyard.

00:45:58.157 --> 00:46:01.847
So you gotta really keep innovating and keep looking, you know, at the horizon.

00:46:01.853 --> 00:46:01.983
Yeah.

00:46:01.987 --> 00:46:02.237
Yeah.

00:46:02.237 --> 00:46:03.318
So it's really, really difficult.

00:46:03.318 --> 00:46:07.998
But I was kind of on the front end, I mean, of this, you know, the Stockholm has a really great.

00:46:07.998 --> 00:46:09.547
Startup ecosystem.

00:46:09.577 --> 00:46:09.818
Okay.

00:46:09.818 --> 00:46:13.148
They've had some, you know, it's, it's a small country, but they punch way above their weight.

00:46:13.148 --> 00:46:15.367
They've got Spotify, they've got Klarna.

00:46:15.492 --> 00:46:15.733
Yeah.

00:46:15.733 --> 00:46:15.733
Yeah.

00:46:15.739 --> 00:46:18.128
They've got all sorts of, uh, interesting things.

00:46:18.128 --> 00:46:23.108
Skype was a Danish Swedish thing, you know, a, a bunch of really exciting ventures.

00:46:23.347 --> 00:46:31.748
And so I would get the students who would take the first entrepreneurship class and then like continue on to the late I and I would teach the early ones.

00:46:31.748 --> 00:46:37.327
And then many of them would go on to like the incubators or the accelerators or other classes.

00:46:37.327 --> 00:46:37.387
Yeah.

00:46:37.387 --> 00:46:38.347
Or they'd go on to start.

00:46:38.347 --> 00:46:40.027
So it was kind of fun to get them early.

00:46:40.117 --> 00:46:40.418
Yeah.

00:46:40.447 --> 00:46:42.668
People were kind of entrepreneurship, curious.

00:46:42.697 --> 00:46:42.938
Yeah.

00:46:42.998 --> 00:46:43.237
Right.

00:46:43.237 --> 00:46:43.297
Yeah.

00:46:43.297 --> 00:46:47.438
And kind of get them excited about it, but also with our life entrepreneurs model.

00:46:47.648 --> 00:46:55.027
'cause this is not just something that you can think about with your professional career, but it's a whole kind of a mindset or a way of life too.

00:46:55.027 --> 00:47:03.217
Well, and when you think about like, I mean, I'm sure you've met, you know, dozens of business people over the years and things, and a lot of the most successful people.

00:47:04.038 --> 00:47:06.288
A, they have a multi-tiered career.

00:47:06.588 --> 00:47:08.927
You know, do a little of this and different things and stuff.

00:47:08.927 --> 00:47:12.047
But also they have a multi-tiered asset foundation.

00:47:12.318 --> 00:47:12.527
Yeah.

00:47:12.797 --> 00:47:28.427
You know, it, it was like when I was growing up and I guess not that different in age from you, I'm probably a little older, but there was a lot of, you know, the stock market was kicking butt and so it was just kind of like, you know, get the 401k match, match it fully and then when you retire you'll be good.

00:47:28.577 --> 00:47:28.818
Yeah.

00:47:29.088 --> 00:47:34.818
Um, but really a lot more people are invested in real estate or different kind of alternative investments, even equity.

00:47:34.998 --> 00:47:35.088
Mm-hmm.

00:47:35.358 --> 00:47:37.338
And startups and small companies.

00:47:38.538 --> 00:47:39.708
And I think that seems more fun.

00:47:40.007 --> 00:47:40.248
Yeah.

00:47:40.648 --> 00:47:45.257
You know, than just relying on BlackRock to manage my, or Vanguard to manage my 401k Good.

00:47:45.378 --> 00:47:46.487
Yeah, exactly.

00:47:46.577 --> 00:47:48.947
And the stock market to continue to go up forever.

00:47:49.097 --> 00:47:49.427
Yeah.

00:47:49.818 --> 00:47:51.077
Yeah, exactly.

00:47:51.527 --> 00:47:53.268
The fun side, the adventure side.

00:47:53.268 --> 00:47:54.438
And you know, for me.

00:47:55.128 --> 00:48:00.918
Teaching, uh, entrepreneurship was also cool because I had this background doing a scale up Yeah.

00:48:01.338 --> 00:48:14.748
Where I was brought in by an entrepreneur, um, who, um, was connected with a large education, col conglomerate private equity that was investing in education ventures from pre-K all the way to adult education.

00:48:15.527 --> 00:48:24.648
And I had this background in K to 12 education and ed reform and think, think tank and startup foundation and charter schools, which are a form of entrepreneurial innovation within public education.

00:48:24.677 --> 00:48:24.947
Yep.

00:48:25.367 --> 00:48:28.998
So I got hired out of my second master's degree, I did an MBA as well.

00:48:29.057 --> 00:48:30.827
And right out of that I got hired.

00:48:31.353 --> 00:48:36.487
Beginning stage, like, you know, we were like, buy tables and you know, there were like five of us, right?

00:48:36.492 --> 00:48:36.572
Right.

00:48:36.572 --> 00:48:37.443
But there was a founder.

00:48:37.443 --> 00:48:37.472
Okay.

00:48:37.472 --> 00:48:39.152
And I was part of the senior management team.

00:48:39.213 --> 00:48:39.572
All right.

00:48:40.023 --> 00:48:47.432
And he said, let's disrupt online education, because back then it was a bunch of mom and pops doing online schools.

00:48:47.762 --> 00:48:47.853
Mm.

00:48:48.092 --> 00:48:50.253
And he said, let's go raise a boatload of money.

00:48:50.313 --> 00:48:50.643
Mm.

00:48:50.672 --> 00:48:57.393
He's had these connections with this, uh, private equity and Goldman and McKinsey and all these big, big money people.

00:48:57.753 --> 00:49:04.773
And we're gonna scale up a world class online education venture and do it at scale in the United States.

00:49:04.773 --> 00:49:04.833
Hmm.

00:49:04.983 --> 00:49:05.552
Through.

00:49:06.123 --> 00:49:09.422
Different business lines, but one of which was virtual charter schools.

00:49:09.483 --> 00:49:09.938
Oh, interesting.

00:49:09.943 --> 00:49:15.362
So instead of doing a brick and mortar charter school where the kid, instead of going to their neighborhood, public or private school Sure.

00:49:15.378 --> 00:49:17.822
They go to a neighborhood physical charter school.

00:49:18.092 --> 00:49:20.018
We say, let's do a virtual Yeah.

00:49:20.103 --> 00:49:20.733
Charter school.

00:49:20.733 --> 00:49:22.922
And you're, you're more deregulated Sure.

00:49:22.922 --> 00:49:24.213
To be innovative school of choice.

00:49:24.302 --> 00:49:24.543
Yeah.

00:49:24.753 --> 00:49:30.092
And so instead of it being locally based, we'd get a statewide charter to do.

00:49:30.092 --> 00:49:35.972
Our first one was the Pennsylvania Virtual Charter School, and then we, our second one was the Colorado Virtual Academy.

00:49:35.972 --> 00:49:36.483
Oh, is that right?

00:49:36.663 --> 00:49:36.753
Yeah.

00:49:36.753 --> 00:49:41.342
And then we went, you know, trying to get 50 states and that was my business line that I led for the company.

00:49:41.373 --> 00:49:41.523
Okay.

00:49:41.523 --> 00:49:42.483
That brought me in to run.

00:49:42.483 --> 00:49:45.693
And then we had a homeschooling line and a supplemental education line.

00:49:45.697 --> 00:49:45.938
Oh wow.

00:49:46.353 --> 00:49:47.193
And is that still.

00:49:47.927 --> 00:49:48.407
There?

00:49:48.407 --> 00:49:49.188
Or did they Yeah.

00:49:49.248 --> 00:49:50.568
So did they have an exit or something?

00:49:50.568 --> 00:49:54.347
So the company, uh, is still going, uh, it's rebranded now.

00:49:54.347 --> 00:49:57.918
It used to be, well, when I first started we were called Premier School.

00:49:57.918 --> 00:50:00.588
Then very quickly we changed to K12 Incorporated.

00:50:00.617 --> 00:50:01.038
Okay.

00:50:01.038 --> 00:50:01.398
K12 Inc.

00:50:01.487 --> 00:50:01.637
Yep.

00:50:02.148 --> 00:50:04.818
And that was a great URL we were k12.com.

00:50:04.847 --> 00:50:05.088
Right.

00:50:05.088 --> 00:50:05.748
So it was perfect.

00:50:05.807 --> 00:50:05.958
Yeah.

00:50:05.958 --> 00:50:07.097
In the education space.

00:50:07.097 --> 00:50:07.277
Yeah.

00:50:07.728 --> 00:50:13.547
But now, uh, they've changed their name and, uh, they, so I was with them for the first four years.

00:50:13.577 --> 00:50:13.847
Okay.

00:50:14.117 --> 00:50:14.958
Uh, pre IPO.

00:50:14.958 --> 00:50:18.527
And that was kind of where you got your chops to get this job in Stockholm, kind of, yeah.

00:50:18.588 --> 00:50:18.858
A little bit.

00:50:18.858 --> 00:50:19.157
Exactly.

00:50:19.157 --> 00:50:19.487
Yeah.

00:50:19.608 --> 00:50:19.757
Yeah.

00:50:19.757 --> 00:50:22.967
And so, uh, and then, uh, subsequently they.

00:50:23.032 --> 00:50:23.873
iPod.

00:50:24.143 --> 00:50:24.322
Yep.

00:50:24.413 --> 00:50:29.032
And then they're a billion dollar plus, uh, publicly traded company now.

00:50:29.032 --> 00:50:29.182
Okay.

00:50:29.242 --> 00:50:34.103
And then they're serving families, I think in more than 80 countries, I believe.

00:50:34.822 --> 00:50:38.003
Um, and now they're called Stride is their new name.

00:50:38.003 --> 00:50:38.032
Oh.

00:50:38.032 --> 00:50:38.722
And I've Oh, I've heard of that.

00:50:38.782 --> 00:50:38.992
Okay.

00:50:38.992 --> 00:50:40.103
Yeah, and I, it's long.

00:50:40.132 --> 00:50:41.063
It's been a long time, so, yeah.

00:50:41.137 --> 00:50:42.172
No affiliations.

00:50:42.172 --> 00:50:43.793
But it was, it was, it was fun.

00:50:43.793 --> 00:50:47.753
It was I'm sure incredible coming outta business school for me to go.

00:50:47.753 --> 00:50:49.612
And we became the market leader very quickly.

00:50:49.643 --> 00:50:49.943
Yeah.

00:50:50.003 --> 00:50:51.637
We went from zero to like.

00:50:51.737 --> 00:50:55.188
$65 million in sales in like four years, I think.

00:50:55.217 --> 00:50:55.338
Awesome.

00:50:55.338 --> 00:50:58.608
We had hun hundreds of employees in four years.

00:50:58.668 --> 00:50:58.998
Wow.

00:50:59.057 --> 00:51:01.623
And we almost ran outta cash, you know, like three times.

00:51:01.972 --> 00:51:02.503
Yeah, exactly.

00:51:02.612 --> 00:51:04.728
This is like drinking out of a fire hose.

00:51:04.757 --> 00:51:04.847
Yeah.

00:51:04.862 --> 00:51:05.023
Bet.

00:51:05.023 --> 00:51:06.467
It was like, crisis opportunity.

00:51:06.467 --> 00:51:07.818
Fly here, do a deal.

00:51:07.998 --> 00:51:08.657
What are we doing?

00:51:08.657 --> 00:51:09.318
How are we working?

00:51:09.318 --> 00:51:10.188
Hire more people.

00:51:10.188 --> 00:51:11.717
Can't hire them fast enough.

00:51:11.958 --> 00:51:13.217
Where was the founder from?

00:51:13.277 --> 00:51:14.387
Like what was his background?

00:51:14.898 --> 00:51:20.237
Yeah, so he was, uh, this, uh, previous, uh, management consultant.

00:51:20.327 --> 00:51:20.358
Okay.

00:51:20.358 --> 00:51:21.588
In investment banking.

00:51:21.978 --> 00:51:24.018
And he was wired in with some big money.

00:51:24.108 --> 00:51:24.378
Yeah.

00:51:24.438 --> 00:51:26.507
Uh, like billionaire money.

00:51:26.512 --> 00:51:26.623
Yeah.

00:51:26.628 --> 00:51:26.987
Yeah.

00:51:26.987 --> 00:51:28.757
So, and real brilliant.

00:51:28.757 --> 00:51:30.137
He was just looking for that home run ball.

00:51:30.137 --> 00:51:30.742
Visionary kinda, yeah.

00:51:30.742 --> 00:51:30.983
Visionary.

00:51:30.987 --> 00:51:32.657
Looking for like a big, bold bet.

00:51:32.663 --> 00:51:32.902
Yeah.

00:51:32.907 --> 00:51:33.137
Yeah.

00:51:33.197 --> 00:51:36.018
And it was helpful'cause we had big money behind us initially.

00:51:36.018 --> 00:51:40.547
And then of course, you know, as we, as we grew, we had to bring in other funders and this kind of thing.

00:51:40.637 --> 00:51:40.728
Sure.

00:51:40.728 --> 00:51:40.847
Yeah.

00:51:40.878 --> 00:51:46.697
I wasn't, I wasn't on the, I mean, I contributed to our decks and stuff, but I was like.

00:51:47.012 --> 00:51:50.193
Go out and scale the virtual charter thing as quickly as possible.

00:51:50.193 --> 00:51:50.253
Okay.

00:51:50.253 --> 00:51:54.063
So I was like, and did that include like building the program and stuff too then?

00:51:54.663 --> 00:51:57.842
So like the content that you were training these kids, or where did that come from?

00:51:57.842 --> 00:51:57.963
No.

00:51:57.963 --> 00:51:58.172
No.

00:51:58.172 --> 00:52:04.833
So we, we hired, uh, they did a great job of, uh, hiring, you know, really good people.

00:52:04.833 --> 00:52:07.262
So we had World, world-class curriculum.

00:52:07.608 --> 00:52:08.057
Folks.

00:52:08.057 --> 00:52:08.807
Developers.

00:52:08.838 --> 00:52:09.077
Yeah.

00:52:09.257 --> 00:52:13.938
Teachers, instructional designers, assessment experts, interesting.

00:52:13.998 --> 00:52:18.918
User experience people, and then of course the business people, you know Sure.

00:52:18.918 --> 00:52:19.458
And whatnot.

00:52:19.458 --> 00:52:25.873
And then I was this charter school guy, think tank guy who knew about that whole thing, which seemed like it might be a good opportunity for us.

00:52:25.878 --> 00:52:26.237
Yeah.

00:52:26.237 --> 00:52:26.239
Yeah.

00:52:26.838 --> 00:52:34.608
So, uh, I wasn't involved in the development of the lessons or the assessments, but, but they brought in really primo it people's all work.

00:52:34.637 --> 00:52:34.907
Yeah.

00:52:35.092 --> 00:52:38.688
And it, the, the quality of it was, was awesome.

00:52:38.688 --> 00:52:39.498
It was, it was great.

00:52:39.527 --> 00:52:42.588
Have you seen, uh, are you familiar with Jordan Peterson?

00:52:42.588 --> 00:52:43.818
I'm sure you've at least heard of him.

00:52:43.847 --> 00:52:43.998
Mm-hmm.

00:52:44.268 --> 00:52:45.648
He's got that Peterson University.

00:52:45.648 --> 00:52:47.268
Have you learned about that at all?

00:52:47.268 --> 00:52:47.992
No, I don't.

00:52:48.137 --> 00:52:59.762
So he's got, it's all videos, you know, but courses from, you know, Harvard professors and different things that he's assembled, but it's, I think they just dropped the price to 3 99 a year.

00:52:59.762 --> 00:53:00.112
Mm-hmm.

00:53:00.932 --> 00:53:01.833
To have all of it.

00:53:02.043 --> 00:53:02.373
Yeah.

00:53:02.882 --> 00:53:05.012
And, uh, they've got like 50,000 people signed up.

00:53:05.072 --> 00:53:05.373
Yeah.

00:53:05.373 --> 00:53:05.762
It's incredible.

00:53:05.762 --> 00:53:05.947
And it's like incredible.

00:53:05.947 --> 00:53:11.913
A classic liberal arts education with it's incredible premier professors and stuff and talk about disruption, higher education.

00:53:11.913 --> 00:53:12.063
I'm sure.

00:53:12.063 --> 00:53:14.762
Like Harvard's like, like stop that shit, dude.

00:53:15.182 --> 00:53:15.668
Yeah, exactly.

00:53:16.052 --> 00:53:21.152
And that's been happening for a while with Coursera and all these free courses where you can take MIT Harvard.

00:53:21.152 --> 00:53:21.422
Totally.

00:53:21.422 --> 00:53:23.373
You know, Oxford, you know, you go around the world.

00:53:23.378 --> 00:53:23.788
Yeah, yeah.

00:53:23.788 --> 00:53:24.242
So yeah.

00:53:24.273 --> 00:53:32.342
So it's an interesting, uh, yeah, they just, I think they just said they dropped the price from 5 9 9 to 3 9 9'cause they got so much volume that they don't need to charge that much anymore.

00:53:32.347 --> 00:53:32.643
Yeah, yeah.

00:53:33.362 --> 00:53:37.023
But but this venture, so this was back in 2000 when we started this.

00:53:37.023 --> 00:53:37.293
Yeah.

00:53:37.472 --> 00:53:46.833
And um, so the idea, our founder said he had kids and one of his kids was struggling with math and back then you go online and you say math help, whatever.

00:53:47.043 --> 00:53:47.163
Yeah.

00:53:47.163 --> 00:53:50.193
And you'd get a bunch of stuff, but it was just wild west.

00:53:50.222 --> 00:53:50.492
Sure.

00:53:50.492 --> 00:53:52.652
Some of it was good, some of it was just terrible.

00:53:52.682 --> 00:53:53.012
Right.

00:53:53.523 --> 00:53:56.163
And he's like, well, how do you curate this?

00:53:56.163 --> 00:53:57.152
How do you know what's good?

00:53:57.152 --> 00:53:58.862
And he said, well, huh.

00:53:59.733 --> 00:54:09.842
What if we could do world class education and basically, um, take away the problem in this country of your quality of education depends on your zip code.

00:54:09.932 --> 00:54:10.443
Right?

00:54:10.563 --> 00:54:12.867
If you live in a nice school district Yep.

00:54:13.353 --> 00:54:14.402
Good education, good teachers.

00:54:14.402 --> 00:54:14.612
Yep.

00:54:14.762 --> 00:54:27.452
But in a lot of, if you're in Baltimore, smaller towns, not so much inner city, you know, lack of access to, you know, a job pool of quality educators to teach calculus or to teach foreign languages or whatnot.

00:54:27.452 --> 00:54:30.632
And so we could bring world class regardless of where you are.

00:54:31.143 --> 00:54:33.902
So that was, it was kind of a social mission.

00:54:33.907 --> 00:54:33.998
Yeah, yeah.

00:54:34.003 --> 00:54:34.202
Yeah.

00:54:34.202 --> 00:54:36.483
But also a big bet scale and you know.

00:54:36.512 --> 00:54:37.112
Yeah.

00:54:37.112 --> 00:54:37.114
Yeah.

00:54:37.413 --> 00:54:38.612
Sounds like it was a lot of fun.

00:54:38.612 --> 00:54:39.302
And it was, yeah.

00:54:39.483 --> 00:54:40.742
You know, opened the door to Sweden.

00:54:41.012 --> 00:54:41.222
Yeah.

00:54:41.282 --> 00:54:46.652
Was that like a dream of yours with your wife before to, to go live in Sweden for a season?

00:54:46.652 --> 00:54:47.672
You said she was from there.

00:54:47.672 --> 00:54:48.572
And how did you find her?

00:54:48.777 --> 00:54:49.108
Yeah.

00:54:49.137 --> 00:54:53.097
My wife and I, uh, so Christina and I met in upstate New York.

00:54:53.157 --> 00:54:53.458
Okay.

00:54:53.697 --> 00:54:59.097
We were both working, uh, as camp counselors at A-Y-M-C-A conference center.

00:54:59.097 --> 00:54:59.458
I like it.

00:54:59.458 --> 00:55:02.637
And so here in Colorado we have the YMCA of the Adirondacks.

00:55:02.668 --> 00:55:02.728
Yeah.

00:55:02.878 --> 00:55:03.268
Or sorry.

00:55:03.297 --> 00:55:03.532
Oh, the Rockies.

00:55:03.532 --> 00:55:04.197
The Rockies, yeah.

00:55:04.197 --> 00:55:06.117
Up there they have the YMC of the Adirondacks.

00:55:06.117 --> 00:55:06.119
Sure.

00:55:06.538 --> 00:55:07.978
Up in the Finger Lakes of York.

00:55:07.978 --> 00:55:07.978
Oh.

00:55:07.983 --> 00:55:08.253
Upstate New York.

00:55:08.398 --> 00:55:08.998
I've, that's amazing.

00:55:08.998 --> 00:55:10.257
I've never been, but it's beautiful.

00:55:10.257 --> 00:55:11.697
It's really incredible.

00:55:11.697 --> 00:55:12.057
Yeah.

00:55:12.057 --> 00:55:19.827
And so, you know, I was working with the, uh, the monster teenagers, you know, going camping on the weekends and, you know, playing kickball and doing all this stuff.

00:55:19.827 --> 00:55:20.728
Capture the flag.

00:55:20.998 --> 00:55:21.172
I like it.

00:55:21.177 --> 00:55:24.057
And she had the little babies, uh, and that was, it was her job.

00:55:24.657 --> 00:55:31.978
And, uh, so we met, uh, we dated over the summer and uh, and then she went back to Sweden and we're dating long distance.

00:55:32.007 --> 00:55:32.248
Oh, wow.

00:55:32.248 --> 00:55:33.268
And some back and forth.

00:55:33.597 --> 00:55:34.733
Broke up and you were, and got back together.

00:55:34.733 --> 00:55:36.237
And 19 years old or something like this?

00:55:36.838 --> 00:55:37.347
Early twenties.

00:55:37.347 --> 00:55:38.938
At that point I was early twenties.

00:55:39.148 --> 00:55:39.297
Yeah.

00:55:39.297 --> 00:55:43.378
And I had, uh, let's see, finished the London Master's degree.

00:55:43.827 --> 00:55:47.757
And then, uh, yeah, I came back and was just doing a summer job with my best friends.

00:55:47.788 --> 00:55:47.878
Yeah.

00:55:47.922 --> 00:55:48.083
Yeah.

00:55:48.088 --> 00:55:49.677
Uh, and, uh, yeah.

00:55:49.677 --> 00:56:03.027
And then so my Swedish wife and I eventually we got engaged and started a family and we said, well, you know, I'm American and she's Swedish, and if we're gonna and raise a family, we wanna honor both our Swedish and our American Sure.

00:56:03.088 --> 00:56:06.208
And raise them bilingually and give them experiences of both.

00:56:06.327 --> 00:56:07.318
And are you, uh.

00:56:07.623 --> 00:56:08.313
Good in Swedish.

00:56:08.313 --> 00:56:10.202
Now, I can't say I'm good.

00:56:10.202 --> 00:56:11.958
I can say that I better than I was.

00:56:12.318 --> 00:56:22.503
I can understand, uh, most of it and follow most things and read newspapers and, you know, whatever, but, but I, uh, I was teaching in English over there Yeah.

00:56:22.563 --> 00:56:24.452
And writing the book and busy raising.

00:56:24.452 --> 00:56:28.233
And so I, you know, and then my wife is just good with languages.

00:56:28.233 --> 00:56:30.182
Christina, she's just got the ear for it.

00:56:30.273 --> 00:56:33.063
She lived in Germany and she can do Spanish and German.

00:56:33.092 --> 00:56:33.152
Wow.

00:56:33.273 --> 00:56:34.773
A lot of Europeans are, yep.

00:56:34.952 --> 00:56:37.023
We, Americans don't prioritize that as much.

00:56:37.023 --> 00:56:37.682
We don't need to.

00:56:37.682 --> 00:56:37.773
Right.

00:56:37.773 --> 00:56:43.472
We've got this huge country and I just, I don't, I'm not particularly gifted in that, so I'm, I'm, I'm okay.

00:56:43.472 --> 00:56:49.023
I can, I can awkwardly, you know, you know, I'm conversational, but certainly not fluent.

00:56:49.052 --> 00:56:49.112
Yeah.

00:56:49.143 --> 00:56:49.322
Yeah.

00:56:49.322 --> 00:56:49.773
Fair enough.

00:56:49.862 --> 00:57:00.572
Yeah, I was thinking about the, the, I'm sorry to scroll chase on you a little bit, but the, the ethics part of that, you know, excellent, ethical and enduring.

00:57:03.137 --> 00:57:08.327
I don't know if you come from a, like a faith background, but what, what is ethical is such an interesting question.

00:57:08.327 --> 00:57:10.518
I'm in the Rotary Club and we have the four-way test.

00:57:10.518 --> 00:57:16.038
I don't know if you're familiar with that, but the, so the other, the things, so tell me the four of the things we think, say and do.

00:57:16.043 --> 00:57:16.273
Mm-hmm.

00:57:16.572 --> 00:57:17.568
Is it the truth?

00:57:18.108 --> 00:57:19.518
Is it fair to all concerned?

00:57:19.788 --> 00:57:23.418
Will it build goodwill and better friendships and will it be beneficial to all concerned?

00:57:23.538 --> 00:57:24.047
Mm.

00:57:24.288 --> 00:57:29.807
And that's kind of like, because it's a non-political, non-religious organization by charter.

00:57:29.958 --> 00:57:30.228
Yeah.

00:57:30.438 --> 00:57:33.047
But they want it to be an ethical organization.

00:57:33.077 --> 00:57:33.197
Yeah.

00:57:33.228 --> 00:57:35.088
Like that's kind of the test that they adopted.

00:57:35.208 --> 00:57:35.447
Yeah.

00:57:35.777 --> 00:57:36.257
Um.

00:57:37.128 --> 00:57:47.807
But how did, like, depending on your view, even of, of God and the 10 Commandments or of like, I'm kind of a libertarian, so just'cause the government tells me to do something doesn't mean I should.

00:57:48.108 --> 00:57:48.257
Yeah.

00:57:48.288 --> 00:57:51.617
Uh, but for some people they're like, well, but that's the law.

00:57:51.918 --> 00:57:52.188
Yeah.

00:57:52.248 --> 00:57:56.268
I'm like, well, but it's not even an ethical law because the speed limit is too low for that road.

00:57:56.268 --> 00:57:57.918
Like they shouldn't be harvesting tickets there.

00:57:58.007 --> 00:57:58.907
That's unethical.

00:57:59.148 --> 00:57:59.447
Yeah.

00:57:59.838 --> 00:58:01.217
Um, what would you say to that?

00:58:01.487 --> 00:58:04.847
Yeah, so I would say that I'm a person of faith too.

00:58:04.847 --> 00:58:07.757
I'm a Christian as well as is my father.

00:58:08.177 --> 00:58:11.777
Although my growing up was very, um, secular.

00:58:11.807 --> 00:58:16.577
My, my, uh, parents are refugees from the Catholic church and Okay.

00:58:16.728 --> 00:58:17.418
Came back to it.

00:58:17.418 --> 00:58:18.887
And so it wasn't part of my growing up.

00:58:19.398 --> 00:58:21.827
Um, I can't say that the.

00:58:24.137 --> 00:58:29.597
Our, my Christian faith and our Christian faith specifically informed the ethical piece of the book.

00:58:30.047 --> 00:58:30.288
Yeah.

00:58:30.288 --> 00:58:36.797
You know, and back then we're at a different stage in our journey and it, but it was much more so we define ethical as, as very simply.

00:58:36.797 --> 00:58:40.307
We like to kind of break things down very simply for practitioners, you know?

00:58:40.307 --> 00:58:40.309
Yeah.

00:58:40.313 --> 00:58:40.443
Yeah.

00:58:40.818 --> 00:58:45.617
And so in the book we, we said doing the right thing, even when it's costly or hard.

00:58:45.677 --> 00:58:45.858
Hmm.

00:58:45.947 --> 00:58:48.018
And then of course, then there's debates about what's the right thing.

00:58:48.047 --> 00:58:48.407
Yeah.

00:58:48.407 --> 00:58:48.409
Yeah.

00:58:48.467 --> 00:58:55.967
And then, you know, I do a lot of teaching of leadership, so we get into different ethical theories and frameworks and we get into, well, it's almost a proof of God, right?

00:58:56.297 --> 00:58:56.387
Yeah.

00:58:56.387 --> 00:58:58.668
Like the fact that most people have a pretty strong Yeah.

00:58:58.847 --> 00:59:01.038
Understanding of what the right thing is.

00:59:01.038 --> 00:59:01.398
Right.

00:59:01.458 --> 00:59:03.108
Regardless of their, yeah.

00:59:03.547 --> 00:59:06.998
Ethnic background or cultural background or whatever.

00:59:07.057 --> 00:59:07.327
Yeah.

00:59:07.748 --> 00:59:10.027
Mostly the right thing is pretty well agreed to.

00:59:10.057 --> 00:59:10.478
That's right.

00:59:10.568 --> 00:59:10.927
That's right.

00:59:11.018 --> 00:59:11.168
Yeah.

00:59:11.168 --> 00:59:21.907
And so just to, just to get more specific, you know, so the kinds of things we're talking about in that chapter or in that section are things like being honest, telling the truth.

00:59:21.967 --> 00:59:22.177
Yeah.

00:59:22.327 --> 00:59:40.237
You know, demonstrating character through behaviors of extending trust and being trustworthy, doing what you said you would do, you know, uh, so, uh, you know, following up on things, you know, and so you're earning credibility, which is a function of character and competence.

00:59:40.237 --> 00:59:45.157
And so, and you know, I've subsequently seen Jacuzzis and Posner have the leadership challenge.

00:59:45.188 --> 00:59:45.393
Yeah, yeah.

00:59:45.398 --> 00:59:48.998
They do the survey of people around the world for decades, you know?

00:59:49.003 --> 00:59:49.237
Yeah, yeah.

00:59:49.237 --> 00:59:52.898
You've got a huge data set and they say, what do you want in a manager?

00:59:52.898 --> 00:59:53.827
What do you look for?

00:59:53.947 --> 00:59:54.217
Yeah.

00:59:54.217 --> 00:59:56.407
In terms of who you would willingly follow.

00:59:56.557 --> 00:59:56.677
Yeah.

00:59:56.677 --> 00:59:57.873
The number one finding.

00:59:58.983 --> 01:00:03.992
Uh, uh, you know, over time, decades is honesty is the most important thing by far.

01:00:03.992 --> 01:00:07.682
It's like 80% and then it drops down to the sixties, and then it goes down from there.

01:00:07.682 --> 01:00:07.922
Wow.

01:00:08.043 --> 01:00:16.052
So people most want, and, and if you're not honest with people, then you're gonna very quickly destroy trust and credibility, and it's gonna.

01:00:17.233 --> 01:00:19.242
And, and things changed dramatically.

01:00:19.242 --> 01:00:21.342
So that, I think that's a powerful finding.

01:00:21.347 --> 01:00:21.608
Yeah.

01:00:21.608 --> 01:00:21.728
Yeah.

01:00:21.733 --> 01:00:22.123
Yeah.

01:00:22.123 --> 01:00:22.992
So, makes sense.

01:00:23.202 --> 01:00:23.413
Yeah.

01:00:23.472 --> 01:00:25.632
Um, where did we leave off?

01:00:26.233 --> 01:00:27.253
We were in Sweden.

01:00:27.282 --> 01:00:28.032
We were in Sweden.

01:00:28.032 --> 01:00:31.842
And, uh, yeah, so, and so, I, I don't think I really answered your question.

01:00:31.842 --> 01:00:43.003
Was kind of like the, tell me about the Swedish chapter of your life, I think is essentially nutshell, well, you kind of answered it like you wanted to have that opportunity for your kids to have a, a shared experience culturally wise.

01:00:43.123 --> 01:00:43.362
Yeah.

01:00:43.483 --> 01:00:51.193
And were they or your, or Christina resistant to come back to the States when it was time, or, or were you Yeah.

01:00:51.193 --> 01:00:54.492
It was hard, I think, uh, in many ways.

01:00:54.523 --> 01:00:58.603
So taking a 13-year-old girl and an 11-year-old girl Yeah.

01:00:58.603 --> 01:01:01.873
And saying, okay, you've grown up here in Sweden.

01:01:02.143 --> 01:01:03.432
You've gone to Swedish schools.

01:01:03.432 --> 01:01:03.492
Yeah.

01:01:03.492 --> 01:01:05.833
You must leave all your friends Swedish with your Swedish friends.

01:01:05.833 --> 01:01:09.523
And now that you're a teenager or a pre, you know, you know, uh.

01:01:09.693 --> 01:01:15.452
You know, we're gonna move across an ocean to a place that you've only visited, you know, once a year for Christmas.

01:01:15.483 --> 01:01:15.572
Yeah.

01:01:15.572 --> 01:01:20.822
Or summers or whatnot where, you know, grandma and grandpa and you know, the, you know, aunts and uncles.

01:01:20.822 --> 01:01:27.693
But it was brutally hard, um, I think for, for all of us, uh, but especially, you know, for the girls.

01:01:27.722 --> 01:01:27.813
Yeah.

01:01:27.842 --> 01:01:32.552
Um, yeah, I remember when I was 13 it was not easy being, you know that.

01:01:32.853 --> 01:01:33.003
Right.

01:01:33.663 --> 01:01:46.143
And, uh, so I subsequently learned that our, our oldest daughter, um, she didn't say this to me and I'm not sure when she said it to, to Christina, but she just couldn't imagine.

01:01:46.563 --> 01:01:47.793
Surviving the move.

01:01:47.822 --> 01:01:48.538
Gosh, my, my gosh.

01:01:48.538 --> 01:01:51.632
She was just like, just, uh, like, how is this possibly I'm gonna die.

01:01:51.842 --> 01:01:52.083
Yeah.

01:01:52.083 --> 01:01:53.583
Like, I just, yeah.

01:01:53.583 --> 01:01:57.452
Like panic, fear, just no clarity or whatnot.

01:01:57.512 --> 01:01:57.603
Mm-hmm.

01:01:58.023 --> 01:01:58.713
Super hard.

01:01:58.713 --> 01:01:58.983
Yeah.

01:01:59.012 --> 01:01:59.282
Wow.

01:01:59.313 --> 01:02:01.532
And, and then, and it, it is really hard.

01:02:01.592 --> 01:02:09.932
I mean, I moved around a ton and I think I underestimated how hard it would be to move to another country and also that phase of life.

01:02:09.932 --> 01:02:12.753
It's one thing to study in London for grad school for a year.

01:02:12.753 --> 01:02:12.842
Right.

01:02:12.842 --> 01:02:19.773
It's another thing to go live for 10 years and build a new life for a family and have to make all new friends and work connections.

01:02:19.773 --> 01:02:21.992
So really, really hard.

01:02:22.052 --> 01:02:26.822
But the fact that they survived it and ended up doing well in school.

01:02:27.333 --> 01:02:27.543
Yeah.

01:02:27.603 --> 01:02:32.072
Um, huge character development thing.

01:02:32.072 --> 01:02:33.632
Huge confidence booster.

01:02:33.663 --> 01:02:33.932
Yeah.

01:02:34.322 --> 01:02:36.992
Uh, even though it's still hard in many ways, I think.

01:02:36.992 --> 01:02:38.217
And, and then of course, did you guys do back at all?

01:02:38.822 --> 01:02:39.873
Yeah, we pretty regularly.

01:02:39.873 --> 01:02:39.932
Yeah.

01:02:39.992 --> 01:02:41.163
So I still teach.

01:02:41.222 --> 01:02:43.382
I go over there, they fly me out to teach for a week.

01:02:43.443 --> 01:02:43.742
Okay.

01:02:43.742 --> 01:02:44.702
At the business school.

01:02:44.762 --> 01:02:44.943
Yeah.

01:02:45.213 --> 01:02:48.333
And then we go back every summer as well for the social stuff.

01:02:48.362 --> 01:02:48.452
Cool.

01:02:48.483 --> 01:02:49.083
Um, and, uh.

01:02:50.103 --> 01:02:56.523
Um, so, and, but we also moved back and then the pandemic hit, and so it's like, go make friends as a 13.

01:02:56.523 --> 01:03:02.913
You know, it's hard enough in the world for everybody, but if you just moved somewhere from a foreign country and it's like, okay, now we're gonna do school.

01:03:02.913 --> 01:03:07.023
Well, in Sweden was terrible because they didn't like shut down like they were supposed to Enough.

01:03:07.052 --> 01:03:07.802
Very different.

01:03:07.833 --> 01:03:08.762
Yeah, very different.

01:03:08.762 --> 01:03:09.603
Yeah, exactly.

01:03:09.603 --> 01:03:12.182
So yeah, the girls weren't paying attention to that.

01:03:12.188 --> 01:03:12.367
Right.

01:03:12.367 --> 01:03:14.193
But that was, it was really hard move for everybody.

01:03:14.193 --> 01:03:19.563
But, uh, but it, I think it's really good, you know, you, you know, you have this exchange student Yeah.

01:03:19.563 --> 01:03:23.193
And, you know, you're, you're bringing people into your, your family and your life.

01:03:23.193 --> 01:03:25.322
And that's, it's wonderful, but it's not easy.

01:03:25.322 --> 01:03:40.592
Like there's cultural disconnections and just having, you know, and just like bumping up against different worldviews and different languages, like, and people, sometimes you can't translate something, there's no, there's no way to think about it or say it in that context of a culture.

01:03:40.592 --> 01:03:41.583
So it's really interesting.

01:03:41.583 --> 01:03:47.402
That's, uh, one of the things that Lenny told me a few weeks back, which was pretty interesting, is like, in Finland, he's like.

01:03:48.123 --> 01:03:51.632
Very charismatic and he is always got the right, clever thing to say.

01:03:51.782 --> 01:03:51.963
Yeah.

01:03:52.172 --> 01:03:56.342
And you know, has a more friends than he knows what to do with.

01:03:56.552 --> 01:03:56.733
Yeah.

01:03:56.762 --> 01:04:01.802
Here, like even though he's got pretty good English, it isn't deep English.

01:04:01.893 --> 01:04:02.132
Yeah.

01:04:02.282 --> 01:04:06.568
You know, it's superficial and so he just doesn't have that same confidence of being like Yeah.

01:04:06.967 --> 01:04:10.172
A charismatic, you know, draw a bunch of friends kind of guy.

01:04:10.202 --> 01:04:10.922
Exactly.

01:04:10.983 --> 01:04:13.563
And like what that can do.

01:04:13.652 --> 01:04:14.103
You know?

01:04:14.103 --> 01:04:22.112
I think it's probably better for him because he's kind of had life too easy for too long and so having a little bit of test of resilience is probably good.

01:04:22.233 --> 01:04:22.443
Yeah.

01:04:22.773 --> 01:04:29.492
But I never really thought about how, how, I guess maybe almost, not quite emasculating, but kind of, you know, I've been always a.

01:04:29.972 --> 01:04:31.922
Awesome at this, and now I'm not.

01:04:32.012 --> 01:04:32.072
Yeah.

01:04:32.373 --> 01:04:33.512
Really challenging, you know?

01:04:33.572 --> 01:04:33.632
Yeah.

01:04:33.632 --> 01:04:40.623
Really, it, it gave me a new appreciation for people who are multilingual or people who are operating in a new culture country.

01:04:40.623 --> 01:04:40.952
Sure.

01:04:41.342 --> 01:04:44.762
Um, so for example, you know, our daughters came over here.

01:04:44.793 --> 01:04:50.793
Now we have a bilingual home and always have, so I've generally spoken English to the girls and my wife generally speaks swish.

01:04:50.797 --> 01:04:51.128
That's right.

01:04:51.242 --> 01:04:54.932
That's the way we just kind of, we understand and we go, we bounce back and forth.

01:04:54.932 --> 01:04:57.693
It's ska or glish as they call it, you know?

01:04:57.693 --> 01:04:58.353
Yeah, yeah.

01:04:58.623 --> 01:05:00.543
But, uh, when they came here.

01:05:01.083 --> 01:05:02.523
Their heads were in Swedish.

01:05:02.523 --> 01:05:05.018
I mean, they had grown up, they hadn't had an English dream in forever.

01:05:05.023 --> 01:05:05.282
Forever.

01:05:05.282 --> 01:05:07.172
I mean, they were three in one when we left.

01:05:07.592 --> 01:05:08.103
They were for 10 years.

01:05:08.193 --> 01:05:08.523
Oh, dang.

01:05:08.523 --> 01:05:14.853
So, so they would hear the teacher speak in English, they would translate it to Swedish in their head.

01:05:15.362 --> 01:05:16.112
In Swedish.

01:05:16.112 --> 01:05:17.882
They would think about their response.

01:05:17.913 --> 01:05:18.092
Right.

01:05:18.092 --> 01:05:22.472
And then in their head they would translate that back to, and by that time it's like the conversation's moved on.

01:05:22.472 --> 01:05:22.777
Right, right.

01:05:22.777 --> 01:05:25.262
It's like, it's just kind of that 2% delay or whatever.

01:05:25.262 --> 01:05:27.543
It happens very quickly, but it's like layers of.

01:05:28.123 --> 01:05:31.362
You know, it makes it much more difficult to just spontaneously jump in.

01:05:31.362 --> 01:05:31.813
Yeah.

01:05:31.813 --> 01:05:34.963
Or to make friends, or to be your personality Yeah.

01:05:34.963 --> 01:05:35.802
And these kinds of things.

01:05:35.802 --> 01:05:36.072
Yeah.

01:05:36.072 --> 01:05:36.074
Yeah.

01:05:36.342 --> 01:05:37.693
And boy, I can relate to that.

01:05:37.693 --> 01:05:43.182
Just trying to communicate, you know, because I love to communicate and write and yeah.

01:05:43.452 --> 01:05:43.753
Brilliant.

01:05:44.382 --> 01:05:45.492
Trust me, it's really important in English.

01:05:45.492 --> 01:05:46.543
I'm amazing.

01:05:46.782 --> 01:06:02.027
I mean, as a writer, I, it's important to me to say something the way I wanna say it, like clearly and concisely so that we're not misunderstanding, you know, but to try to fumble through that in Swedish, you know, if it's not a gift for you, it's, that's interesting.

01:06:02.027 --> 01:06:02.713
It's frustrating.

01:06:02.833 --> 01:06:03.012
Yeah.

01:06:03.253 --> 01:06:05.413
Would you like to play the, uh, book giveaway game?

01:06:05.802 --> 01:06:06.612
Absolutely.

01:06:06.643 --> 01:06:07.123
Okay.

01:06:07.128 --> 01:06:07.387
Let's do it.

01:06:07.393 --> 01:06:07.722
Let's do it.

01:06:07.722 --> 01:06:07.963
Yeah.

01:06:08.443 --> 01:06:16.152
So this is, uh, the gift for today is the Triple Crown leadership book from Bob and Greg Van Vanek Vanek.

01:06:16.152 --> 01:06:16.693
Yes.

01:06:16.753 --> 01:06:21.822
And, uh, so we have this amazing bowl full of p pong balls.

01:06:22.092 --> 01:06:22.242
Alright.

01:06:22.302 --> 01:06:23.833
And so you're gonna grab three of those out of there.

01:06:23.938 --> 01:06:24.228
Okay.

01:06:26.148 --> 01:06:27.677
And you can grab all three if you want.

01:06:27.677 --> 01:06:28.487
And we'll go through one.

01:06:28.487 --> 01:06:31.248
We go, alright, we got 12.

01:06:31.847 --> 01:06:33.438
This is my lucky number.

01:06:33.438 --> 01:06:35.088
That was my soccer number growing up.

01:06:35.088 --> 01:06:35.327
Right?

01:06:35.327 --> 01:06:35.748
I like it.

01:06:35.748 --> 01:06:38.057
1229 and 26.

01:06:38.063 --> 01:06:39.887
Oh, oh, let's see what those are, Kurt.

01:06:39.887 --> 01:06:40.367
All right.

01:06:40.458 --> 01:06:41.628
12 right here.

01:06:41.657 --> 01:06:42.407
That's a fun one.

01:06:43.038 --> 01:06:45.827
And we'll choose our, my, our favorite answer of these.

01:06:45.827 --> 01:06:47.538
And then when somebody writes'em, we'll give'em the book.

01:06:47.628 --> 01:06:48.137
Alright.

01:06:48.137 --> 01:06:48.318
Great.

01:06:48.318 --> 01:06:48.978
So 12.

01:06:49.038 --> 01:06:52.097
Uh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

01:06:52.097 --> 01:06:52.998
About business?

01:06:53.148 --> 01:06:53.447
Hmm.

01:06:53.597 --> 01:06:54.438
About business?

01:06:54.438 --> 01:06:54.708
Yeah.

01:06:55.818 --> 01:06:59.704
I'd have to say that it comes from my father, not surprisingly, perhaps not surprised.

01:07:00.257 --> 01:07:03.498
I had this front row seat to watching my dad's business career Yeah.

01:07:03.498 --> 01:07:04.697
And leadership and all this.

01:07:04.697 --> 01:07:08.807
And going to the office, meeting colleagues, going to the company picnic.

01:07:09.467 --> 01:07:22.668
And, you know, I was initially, um, skeptical about business, uh, and, uh, thought I, I thought I wanted to be in public policy and government and po I had a whole mm-hmm.

01:07:23.402 --> 01:07:24.663
Uh, part of my career in that.

01:07:25.233 --> 01:07:30.722
Um, but, but he, he told me, he said, Greg business is a set of relationships.

01:07:31.083 --> 01:07:36.213
Like what, what matters most is people that you work with.

01:07:36.273 --> 01:07:39.813
And so what he meant by that was be a good colleague.

01:07:40.083 --> 01:07:41.972
Support people, get to know them.

01:07:41.972 --> 01:07:48.242
And he really made an effort to get to know people even though he was a hard driven Type A Yeah.

01:07:48.242 --> 01:07:50.822
High achiever, Harvard Business School competitive dude.

01:07:50.822 --> 01:07:50.913
Right.

01:07:50.913 --> 01:07:51.003
Sure.

01:07:51.003 --> 01:08:05.867
He had really had to mellow out and, you know, I really have to say that it was cool over the years,'cause I'd made a bunch of his colleagues at the picnic or at the office or the cafeteria, we'd have lunch and then over the years people would stay in touch with him.

01:08:05.927 --> 01:08:06.347
Mm-hmm.

01:08:06.427 --> 01:08:09.242
And I would talk to some of them and they would say.

01:08:09.858 --> 01:08:15.197
It was incredible to be part of a team where we cared about each other.

01:08:15.197 --> 01:08:16.578
We worked so hard.

01:08:16.578 --> 01:08:20.118
We, we, we, you know, it was like a family.

01:08:20.122 --> 01:08:20.262
Yeah.

01:08:20.297 --> 01:08:20.358
Yeah.

01:08:20.358 --> 01:08:23.148
And it was like a highlight of their career and it was a highlight of their life.

01:08:23.207 --> 01:08:23.448
Yeah.

01:08:23.507 --> 01:08:27.828
And they were just so grateful to have a leader like that and, and a team like that.

01:08:27.828 --> 01:08:31.217
And so business is a set of relationships, and so I think, wow.

01:08:31.307 --> 01:08:37.368
It's just, well, I think what's interesting is that it's kind of a contrast to the way academia works sometimes too.

01:08:37.368 --> 01:08:37.457
Mm-hmm.

01:08:38.268 --> 01:08:46.512
Like because they're like, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like they're a bunch of back stabbers a lot of times and they're trying to get their own credibility and their own research paper and Yes.

01:08:46.667 --> 01:08:54.707
You know, if they burn up this grad student grading papers and suffering through for my benefit, well it's'cause I'm awesome and you should do that.

01:08:54.847 --> 01:08:55.837
Yes, that's right.

01:08:55.837 --> 01:08:55.988
Yeah.

01:08:55.988 --> 01:08:57.307
The politics there.

01:08:57.637 --> 01:08:59.797
Also the arrogance sometimes, right?

01:08:59.797 --> 01:09:08.137
Because you're so brilliant in one thing that you just assume you know, whatever, and, uh, and that sometimes you're a little too cerebral for your own good.

01:09:08.143 --> 01:09:08.222
Yeah.

01:09:08.228 --> 01:09:08.318
Yeah.

01:09:08.318 --> 01:09:10.717
And I'm a big, I worked at a think tank and here we are at Loca.

01:09:10.717 --> 01:09:13.057
I'm a big believer in like the power of head and heart.

01:09:13.417 --> 01:09:18.783
But it's like, but you also have to have that relationship and don't forget about connecting with students to Yeah, yeah.

01:09:18.787 --> 01:09:23.677
To invite them into the subject so that they care about it, they, they see the relevance of it.

01:09:23.828 --> 01:09:23.948
Yeah.

01:09:23.948 --> 01:09:27.068
Don't just be lost in the academic paper and what, in the publishing.

01:09:27.068 --> 01:09:30.608
And that you're losing the connection with industry in the real world and the students.

01:09:30.698 --> 01:09:31.118
I like that.

01:09:31.177 --> 01:09:31.358
Yeah.

01:09:31.717 --> 01:09:34.387
Um, 26 and 29, is that right?

01:09:34.387 --> 01:09:36.422
Should we go in order of number or you tell me.

01:09:36.573 --> 01:09:36.903
Tell me.

01:09:36.903 --> 01:09:38.618
You take us, you take us where you want to go.

01:09:38.828 --> 01:09:39.518
Um.

01:09:43.127 --> 01:09:45.137
Describe your first kiss.

01:09:47.148 --> 01:09:48.648
Okay, so let's see.

01:09:48.648 --> 01:09:51.467
Oakwood, Ohio, the lumberjacks.

01:09:51.497 --> 01:09:53.328
I was in junior high school.

01:09:53.448 --> 01:09:53.957
Okay.

01:09:53.957 --> 01:09:55.247
And was the new kid in town.

01:09:55.247 --> 01:09:57.497
Had moved from ca from Southern California.

01:09:57.797 --> 01:09:58.307
I grew up.

01:09:58.307 --> 01:09:58.337
Okay.

01:09:58.938 --> 01:10:04.728
And, uh, you know, I talked, we talked earlier about the awkwardness of being a teenager and whatnot.

01:10:04.728 --> 01:10:04.818
Sure.

01:10:04.818 --> 01:10:08.988
My hair was just moppy and the braces and everything.

01:10:08.988 --> 01:10:13.217
I, I mean, I did get a little bit of cache about being the new kid from California.

01:10:13.217 --> 01:10:14.028
So that was positive.

01:10:14.028 --> 01:10:14.597
You were kind of.

01:10:14.703 --> 01:10:17.462
And some little bit cool is positive and negative.

01:10:17.523 --> 01:10:21.932
There was some brutal stuff going on with people, you know, not being nice to Sure.

01:10:21.993 --> 01:10:23.882
But I, I ended up meeting some good friends.

01:10:23.882 --> 01:10:27.332
But anyway, there was a cheerleader, uh, and I, I was a soccer player.

01:10:27.332 --> 01:10:29.222
I got in a band, I played the guitar.

01:10:29.523 --> 01:10:29.672
Alright.

01:10:29.733 --> 01:10:33.302
And, and so I had my first kiss with the cheerleader.

01:10:33.453 --> 01:10:33.722
Okay.

01:10:33.813 --> 01:10:36.662
And, you know, she was cute and it was all exciting.

01:10:36.662 --> 01:10:40.233
I was all nervous and, uh, I was terrible at it.

01:10:40.233 --> 01:10:45.483
And it was just, you know, it was like so awkward and it was like, we, we shall never talk of this again kind of thing.

01:10:45.483 --> 01:10:46.387
Didn't date or anything like that.

01:10:46.448 --> 01:10:48.243
We didn't date or anything like, huh.

01:10:48.243 --> 01:10:49.592
I'm not sure I did that so well.

01:10:49.592 --> 01:10:51.243
I've got some stuff to learn here.

01:10:51.243 --> 01:10:51.662
So.

01:10:51.962 --> 01:10:59.372
Well, luckily Christina came along not too much later to teach the proper Christina came and it's probably, I'm probably not the only one who had that experience, so I don't know.

01:10:59.432 --> 01:11:05.193
So, um, and then what's your go-to way to unwind after a stressful day?

01:11:05.613 --> 01:11:05.823
Yeah.

01:11:06.542 --> 01:11:06.603
Yeah.

01:11:07.143 --> 01:11:11.912
So yeah, I'm a big believer that we need to unwind more and better.

01:11:11.972 --> 01:11:13.893
And so I like to read a lot.

01:11:13.893 --> 01:11:13.922
Okay.

01:11:14.552 --> 01:11:17.853
I like to, I'll go out on the deck and just be outside.

01:11:18.363 --> 01:11:20.313
Um, go for a walk.

01:11:20.313 --> 01:11:27.212
We have a couple dogs and three cats, so sometimes my wife and I will go for a walk and just talk about our day and talk about stuff.

01:11:27.212 --> 01:11:33.813
Maybe we need to vent a little bit, um, uh, reading and, uh, just kind of chilling.

01:11:33.813 --> 01:11:35.882
I like to do a little snuggle on the couch.

01:11:36.363 --> 01:11:41.912
Our younger daughter's more snuggle prone now than our older daughter, but just getting some good family time.

01:11:41.912 --> 01:11:43.472
Yeah, some good connectivity time.

01:11:44.012 --> 01:11:52.233
And then I, I like when I go to bed for a while now, I've been doing the kind of three things that I'm grateful for about the day, just as I'm lying in bed before I go to sleep.

01:11:52.262 --> 01:11:52.472
Nice.

01:11:52.802 --> 01:11:54.393
And it's just, it's been really nice.

01:11:54.393 --> 01:11:54.394
Yeah.

01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:55.533
And, and often like.

01:11:55.643 --> 01:11:57.203
Many more things come to me.

01:11:57.712 --> 01:11:57.832
Right.

01:11:57.832 --> 01:11:59.693
But at least three, it's gotta be three.

01:11:59.813 --> 01:11:59.962
Yeah.

01:11:59.962 --> 01:12:02.662
Even if you had a tough day, there's, there's still three in there.

01:12:02.662 --> 01:12:03.622
You got, you gotta do it.

01:12:03.953 --> 01:12:04.283
I think so.

01:12:04.283 --> 01:12:05.542
You know, but it's, it's cool.

01:12:05.542 --> 01:12:07.762
It's just puts you in a good spirit before you.

01:12:07.762 --> 01:12:22.552
One of my favorite, uh, quotes from my dad and when you mentioned sitting out on the deck or whatever, uh, I kind of imagine a guy in a rocking chair at an old farmhouse or whatever, but, uh, sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits.

01:12:25.042 --> 01:12:28.342
And I don't know why that lie just really makes me smile.

01:12:28.342 --> 01:12:30.353
But, you know, just sitting Yeah.

01:12:30.353 --> 01:12:30.922
Sometimes.

01:12:30.922 --> 01:12:31.643
Exactly.

01:12:31.733 --> 01:12:34.103
And like taking a hike is kind of a way of just sitting.

01:12:34.193 --> 01:12:34.462
Yeah.

01:12:34.643 --> 01:12:43.552
You know, you're not thinking about this person's work performance or that email you got forgot to respond to for a week in a row now.

01:12:43.552 --> 01:12:44.002
Yeah.

01:12:44.733 --> 01:12:48.033
Yeah, so I'm a big fan of The Eagles and Don Henley.

01:12:48.512 --> 01:13:01.743
There's a song Learn to Be Still that just really hits me and I think, you know, if you and I operate in the world of entrepreneurs and leaders and ambitious people, and you've done a lot of exciting things and there's value in hard work, I love hard work and whatnot.

01:13:01.743 --> 01:13:01.802
Yeah.

01:13:01.832 --> 01:13:04.143
But we also need to learn to be still Yeah.

01:13:04.143 --> 01:13:07.412
Be able to get still and just be peaceful, serene.

01:13:07.622 --> 01:13:07.712
Yeah.

01:13:07.712 --> 01:13:11.613
In Swedish, you say Lu, just be calm and just calm and collective.

01:13:12.573 --> 01:13:15.363
Say just, you know, just be still.

01:13:15.393 --> 01:13:18.722
What's the, uh, the Swedish word for like adventure?

01:13:18.783 --> 01:13:20.372
You mentioned that a lot in your life.

01:13:20.372 --> 01:13:21.092
Entrepreneur thing.

01:13:21.092 --> 01:13:23.552
I think it's Avenir if I'm not mistaken.

01:13:23.552 --> 01:13:24.119
So it's pretty similar.

01:13:24.125 --> 01:13:25.233
Almost sounds the same.

01:13:25.323 --> 01:13:26.076
Yeah, I think so.

01:13:26.076 --> 01:13:26.077
Yeah.

01:13:26.462 --> 01:13:26.853
I dig it.

01:13:27.153 --> 01:13:34.023
Well, the winner of the question, I think even though they're all fun, I think the, uh, business is a set of relationships.

01:13:34.023 --> 01:13:34.082
Yeah.

01:13:34.113 --> 01:13:36.752
From the, the, the vaunted.

01:13:36.752 --> 01:13:40.893
Bob VanEck, uh, is the right, uh, quote there.

01:13:40.953 --> 01:13:44.912
So, uh, text us DMS we'll get you a copy of this book.

01:13:45.243 --> 01:13:45.872
Excellent.

01:13:45.872 --> 01:13:47.882
And I'm gonna call it Break Potty Break.

01:13:47.943 --> 01:13:48.243
Yeah.

01:13:48.332 --> 01:13:50.162
And then we'll come back in for the rest of it.

01:13:50.582 --> 01:13:51.182
Let's do it.

01:14:48.222 --> 01:14:48.912
And we're back.

01:14:49.182 --> 01:14:51.823
So I wanted to zoom in on, uh.

01:14:52.512 --> 01:14:53.502
Your family a little bit more.

01:14:53.563 --> 01:14:53.653
Mm-hmm.

01:14:53.983 --> 01:14:56.773
You mentioned, uh, Christina, you know, met pretty early.

01:14:56.773 --> 01:15:01.153
Has she had her own career as well or has she been focused on raising the girls mostly?

01:15:01.273 --> 01:15:01.453
Yeah.

01:15:01.453 --> 01:15:02.382
She's had a career.

01:15:02.412 --> 01:15:02.563
Okay.

01:15:02.563 --> 01:15:07.153
So, um, and she's gone through some career changes too, like me.

01:15:07.273 --> 01:15:07.603
Sure.

01:15:07.662 --> 01:15:15.342
So she was, early on, she was doing, uh, graphics assisting for McKinsey and Company mm-hmm.

01:15:15.582 --> 01:15:17.353
Helping consultants with their decks.

01:15:17.353 --> 01:15:19.363
And she did some executive assistant work.

01:15:19.603 --> 01:15:22.783
She studied public relations here in the us.

01:15:22.842 --> 01:15:23.143
Okay.

01:15:23.323 --> 01:15:25.932
Uh, but then she, she grew up on a farm.

01:15:26.052 --> 01:15:29.443
She competed, uh, in equestrian growing up.

01:15:29.502 --> 01:15:29.743
Okay.

01:15:29.743 --> 01:15:32.502
Uh, competitively with a dressage and show jumping.

01:15:32.533 --> 01:15:32.893
Okay.

01:15:33.222 --> 01:15:38.563
And she loves horses and animals and she just has a knack for it.

01:15:38.953 --> 01:15:44.412
And so at one point she said, I'm thinking about going back to school to become a veterinary technician.

01:15:44.412 --> 01:15:44.653
Hmm.

01:15:45.837 --> 01:15:52.222
And, uh, and you're like, vet techs don't make nearly as much as you, they don't, they don't make nearly as much.

01:15:52.917 --> 01:15:56.637
Are you sure that, and she, you know, she was just all into it.

01:15:56.698 --> 01:15:56.757
Yeah.

01:15:56.757 --> 01:15:58.257
So she went back to school.

01:15:58.347 --> 01:15:58.438
Yeah.

01:15:58.438 --> 01:16:07.948
Here in Colorado with Be Ray became a certified tech and, you know, really intense schooling, big transition to kind of take that time off.

01:16:07.978 --> 01:16:08.127
Yeah.

01:16:08.188 --> 01:16:09.658
Early career and do that.

01:16:10.228 --> 01:16:13.228
Um, and, you know, all the learning, all the science and all that.

01:16:13.228 --> 01:16:13.618
Sure.

01:16:13.917 --> 01:16:16.828
And boy, his, she, she just thrives.

01:16:16.828 --> 01:16:18.807
She's great at what she does.

01:16:18.988 --> 01:16:19.078
Yeah.

01:16:19.108 --> 01:16:19.738
She's so good.

01:16:19.738 --> 01:16:24.172
Both with the animals, like reading the nervous dogs or the aggressive dogs Sure.

01:16:24.177 --> 01:16:26.368
Or the cats, but also the humans.

01:16:26.368 --> 01:16:26.427
Yeah.

01:16:26.427 --> 01:16:29.578
And going through all the stuff they do with surgeries and dentals and Yeah.

01:16:29.757 --> 01:16:29.938
Yeah.

01:16:30.028 --> 01:16:33.658
When putting the animals down and guiding the families through that.

01:16:33.662 --> 01:16:33.813
Yeah.

01:16:33.818 --> 01:16:34.018
Yeah.

01:16:34.047 --> 01:16:36.507
She's just amazing at it.

01:16:36.512 --> 01:16:36.773
Neat.

01:16:36.898 --> 01:16:40.917
And we also have dogs and she trains them and competes with them.

01:16:40.948 --> 01:16:41.337
Oh, wow.

01:16:41.518 --> 01:16:44.698
And so it's been in incred and then, you know, I didn't grow up with any pets.

01:16:44.703 --> 01:16:44.893
Yeah.

01:16:44.893 --> 01:16:44.894
Yeah.

01:16:44.899 --> 01:16:47.997
And I was, you know, allergic to dogs and cats, but, oh, is that right?

01:16:48.057 --> 01:16:49.108
I've overcome that.

01:16:49.167 --> 01:16:49.198
Oh.

01:16:49.347 --> 01:16:50.967
And, and love in just love.

01:16:50.967 --> 01:16:52.438
It's added so much to our family.

01:16:52.438 --> 01:16:53.097
Our girls love it.

01:16:53.097 --> 01:16:54.478
How do you overcome that?

01:16:54.927 --> 01:16:56.368
I just outgrew that.

01:16:56.432 --> 01:16:57.207
Oh, okay.

01:16:57.297 --> 01:17:00.568
And, uh, I was gonna say, you just rub yourself with dogs until you get over it.

01:17:00.573 --> 01:17:03.773
And, and then partly I think my diet has helped too, like, uh mm-hmm.

01:17:03.872 --> 01:17:09.238
And I didn't do this purposefully for that reason, but it's just, I think for whatever reasons, uh, that's manageable.

01:17:09.358 --> 01:17:10.707
But yeah, you just, you.

01:17:11.063 --> 01:17:12.082
Acclimate yourself.

01:17:12.082 --> 01:17:14.783
Sometimes I was able to, you know, my, my body was able to do that somehow.

01:17:14.783 --> 01:17:14.993
Yeah.

01:17:15.323 --> 01:17:15.443
Yeah.

01:17:15.738 --> 01:17:17.332
I mean, it was a test when we first got pets.

01:17:17.332 --> 01:17:18.653
Like, I don't know if this is gonna work.

01:17:18.682 --> 01:17:20.783
You know, our first pet is like, I need to breathe.

01:17:20.783 --> 01:17:21.502
So let's see.

01:17:21.802 --> 01:17:24.233
Really is very, is more important to me than this dog.

01:17:24.233 --> 01:17:24.443
Yeah.

01:17:24.502 --> 01:17:25.342
But it's been so fun.

01:17:25.432 --> 01:17:25.823
Oh, cool.

01:17:25.912 --> 01:17:26.034
So we love it.

01:17:26.122 --> 01:17:29.632
And we foster, we've fostered, I don't know, more than 60 or 70 cats.

01:17:29.632 --> 01:17:30.143
Oh my gosh.

01:17:30.143 --> 01:17:31.012
Some kittens over the years.

01:17:31.042 --> 01:17:31.432
Oh, wow.

01:17:31.432 --> 01:17:32.813
Just for like a month at a time.

01:17:32.962 --> 01:17:33.233
Oh, cool.

01:17:33.233 --> 01:17:33.922
You know, for, for a group.

01:17:33.922 --> 01:17:34.042
Yeah.

01:17:34.042 --> 01:17:34.582
That's pretty neat.

01:17:34.582 --> 01:17:35.122
It's super fun.

01:17:35.122 --> 01:17:35.273
Yeah.

01:17:35.363 --> 01:17:35.932
Yeah.

01:17:35.932 --> 01:17:35.934
Yeah.

01:17:36.113 --> 01:17:37.103
And what kind of dogs?

01:17:37.432 --> 01:17:39.443
We have two hunting Labradors.

01:17:39.472 --> 01:17:39.502
Okay.

01:17:39.502 --> 01:17:42.592
So we've got Morrison and or Moog as we call'em.

01:17:42.592 --> 01:17:44.573
And we've got messy named after the soccer player.

01:17:44.603 --> 01:17:44.932
Nice.

01:17:44.932 --> 01:17:44.934
Nice.

01:17:44.993 --> 01:17:47.842
And so we've got a black hunting lab and then a white hunting lab.

01:17:48.143 --> 01:17:52.222
And they're, Christina has done an amazing job and so does she hunt with them then?

01:17:52.372 --> 01:17:54.233
So, yeah, she goes out on hunts.

01:17:54.262 --> 01:17:54.323
Yeah.

01:17:54.323 --> 01:17:57.978
And so she's not the one shooting, she's the one when the shot, it's, it's, mm-hmm.

01:17:58.057 --> 01:18:00.443
Often they do it with a dummy, but sometimes it's with live fo.

01:18:00.472 --> 01:18:00.893
Yeah.

01:18:00.893 --> 01:18:00.953
Yeah.

01:18:01.167 --> 01:18:04.528
They'll go out and, and she does this mostly in Sweden, but sometimes here too.

01:18:04.557 --> 01:18:06.328
'cause you know, we bring'em over in the, in the summer.

01:18:06.328 --> 01:18:06.537
Yeah.

01:18:06.537 --> 01:18:07.078
Summertime.

01:18:07.198 --> 01:18:07.377
Yep.

01:18:07.467 --> 01:18:12.747
But, you know, through the water, you know, very long distances directing, calling him back, different signals.

01:18:12.747 --> 01:18:13.978
It's, it's, uh, very impressive.

01:18:13.978 --> 01:18:17.158
So I guess guns are a little more allowed in Sweden.

01:18:17.247 --> 01:18:20.037
I, I meant, actually, I took Lenny shooting yesterday.

01:18:20.037 --> 01:18:23.188
He shot his first gun, so he shot a, a, oops.

01:18:23.698 --> 01:18:26.608
Greenheart Exchange says you're not supposed to do that, but hopefully they won't listen to this.

01:18:27.478 --> 01:18:32.997
But we shot a 22 and, uh, like a 2 23 rifle and then a shotgun.

01:18:32.997 --> 01:18:33.028
Okay.

01:18:33.087 --> 01:18:34.887
Which was the one that surprised him the most.

01:18:34.887 --> 01:18:35.818
But it's punch.

01:18:36.057 --> 01:18:36.148
Yeah.

01:18:36.177 --> 01:18:40.978
But it, but in Finland, like even though there's a one year mandatory military service Yeah.

01:18:41.158 --> 01:18:44.068
After high school, then they take your gun back and nobody's got guns.

01:18:44.268 --> 01:18:44.658
Okay.

01:18:44.927 --> 01:18:46.997
Uh, Sweden's a little bit more open, I guess, or, yeah.

01:18:46.997 --> 01:18:48.412
So I don't know about England's the kings.

01:18:48.412 --> 01:18:49.847
The king's people can shoot.

01:18:49.938 --> 01:18:49.939
Yeah.

01:18:49.997 --> 01:18:50.537
I wanna talk to the king.

01:18:50.837 --> 01:18:51.648
Everybody's my boss'.

01:18:51.648 --> 01:18:52.488
Boss boss, yeah.

01:18:52.728 --> 01:18:53.387
So, yeah.

01:18:53.387 --> 01:19:06.707
So, um, with hunting, um, it is allowed and it's just very, they, they do have very strict regulations about it, about getting access to it and how you store it and all these kinds of things, but Sure, yeah.

01:19:06.707 --> 01:19:07.488
They do have, you know.

01:19:07.488 --> 01:19:07.787
Okay.

01:19:07.877 --> 01:19:08.028
Yeah.

01:19:08.238 --> 01:19:13.037
I was curious because most of Europe is largely un gunned Yeah.

01:19:13.188 --> 01:19:13.787
At this point in time.

01:19:13.787 --> 01:19:17.507
And not that a double barrel shotgun's gonna do much to fend off your invasion or whatever.

01:19:17.688 --> 01:19:17.927
Right.

01:19:18.707 --> 01:19:24.917
So tell me about that young love, like why, even though she was across the pond mm-hmm.

01:19:25.158 --> 01:19:29.087
Uh, right after you got to know each other, kind of, why did you continue to pursue that long distance?

01:19:29.087 --> 01:19:32.417
Was it just that obvious that she was the girl for you or vice versa?

01:19:32.658 --> 01:19:35.172
Yeah, I would say that, um, I.

01:19:35.443 --> 01:19:37.722
You know, we had a, a great summer together.

01:19:37.722 --> 01:19:41.382
We were both, you know, counseling the kiddos and we had fun.

01:19:41.382 --> 01:19:42.523
We played music together.

01:19:42.523 --> 01:19:46.033
I played the guitar and she sang and we performed live a little bit.

01:19:46.122 --> 01:19:46.722
Mm, that's fun.

01:19:46.872 --> 01:19:50.502
Just had fun, you know, with our friends and going out and being part of that.

01:19:50.502 --> 01:19:50.533
I.

01:19:50.983 --> 01:19:58.722
Summer, but we would also go up hiking in the, the Adirondacks are incredible and the, the lakes, there's something almost spiritual about them.

01:19:58.722 --> 01:20:04.302
It's just this kind of incredible, and we'd just go up on the hikes and look over the beautiful scenery.

01:20:04.302 --> 01:20:09.972
We'd have these long talks and we just, we just really connected on a deeper level and just very quickly just.

01:20:10.472 --> 01:20:12.903
Got a sensely, we shared values and whatnot.

01:20:13.158 --> 01:20:13.622
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:14.042 --> 01:20:16.412
And so, and then we were just very open.

01:20:16.412 --> 01:20:20.462
It wasn't kind of, okay, we're definitely gonna, you know, but we were just, let's keep dating.

01:20:20.462 --> 01:20:20.523
Yeah.

01:20:20.523 --> 01:20:21.632
But this is really hard.

01:20:21.632 --> 01:20:23.222
And back then it was much harder.

01:20:23.643 --> 01:20:24.092
Right.

01:20:24.097 --> 01:20:26.762
Skype, we were literally writing letters and mailing them.

01:20:26.762 --> 01:20:26.943
Right.

01:20:27.063 --> 01:20:30.393
'cause phone calls were still, fricking phone calls were still$20 to have a short one.

01:20:30.393 --> 01:20:30.512
Skype.

01:20:30.518 --> 01:20:32.103
Skype wasn't, you know, blasting yet.

01:20:32.177 --> 01:20:32.853
Yep, yep.

01:20:32.978 --> 01:20:36.002
And, and, uh, and then we just kept fighting for it.

01:20:36.002 --> 01:20:42.092
And we'd have three months on a temporary visa and, you know, six months on in a school program and blah, blah, blah.

01:20:42.092 --> 01:20:44.582
And just back in visits and whatnot.

01:20:44.613 --> 01:20:48.363
And just kept, and, and we dated a little bit in, in interim, you know, period.

01:20:48.422 --> 01:20:49.592
Other people you mean, or whatever.

01:20:49.597 --> 01:20:49.637
Yeah.

01:20:49.637 --> 01:20:49.878
People, yeah.

01:20:49.878 --> 01:20:51.453
It wasn't totally exclusive the whole time.

01:20:51.453 --> 01:20:54.453
You're cool, but you're not nearly as Yeah, we just kind of cool as Christina.

01:20:55.292 --> 01:20:55.563
Yeah.

01:20:55.563 --> 01:20:57.783
And then it was like, no, no, this is definitely something.

01:20:57.783 --> 01:20:58.023
Yeah.

01:20:58.023 --> 01:21:01.382
And then we said, okay, we're gonna get really serious about it.

01:21:01.382 --> 01:21:05.582
And then she was able to get a transfer back then she was still with McKenzie.

01:21:05.672 --> 01:21:06.063
Mm-hmm.

01:21:06.422 --> 01:21:08.462
Not as a consultant, but she was the first.

01:21:09.597 --> 01:21:14.097
Uh, I think was it non consultant to get an international transfer like that.

01:21:14.097 --> 01:21:14.578
Oh, interesting.

01:21:14.578 --> 01:21:17.247
So she was able to be transferred over Yeah.

01:21:17.307 --> 01:21:21.597
While I was in grad school and we were still, you know, like 40 minutes away from each other.

01:21:21.603 --> 01:21:21.927
Yeah, yeah.

01:21:21.957 --> 01:21:23.818
But at least we're in the same country.

01:21:23.818 --> 01:21:24.132
Yeah, yeah.

01:21:24.132 --> 01:21:27.118
And live in the same state, so we're able to date properly.

01:21:27.122 --> 01:21:27.252
Yeah.

01:21:27.257 --> 01:21:27.507
Yeah.

01:21:27.512 --> 01:21:29.037
And so, um, yeah.

01:21:29.037 --> 01:21:30.172
And then neat, here we are.

01:21:30.323 --> 01:21:30.613
Nice.

01:21:30.613 --> 01:21:31.738
I appreciate that tenacity.

01:21:32.097 --> 01:21:32.158
Yeah.

01:21:32.188 --> 01:21:32.847
In that pursuit.

01:21:32.847 --> 01:21:32.908
Yeah.

01:21:33.207 --> 01:21:34.677
Um, by both of you, it seems.

01:21:34.797 --> 01:21:35.068
Yeah.

01:21:35.247 --> 01:21:40.497
One of the, one of the fun things we do on this show is have a one word description for the children.

01:21:40.587 --> 01:21:40.917
Mm-hmm.

01:21:41.127 --> 01:21:43.648
In your case, one word for each of your two girls.

01:21:43.648 --> 01:21:43.738
Mm-hmm.

01:21:43.768 --> 01:21:44.667
And how old are they now?

01:21:45.207 --> 01:21:46.917
So we've got 18 and 16.

01:21:47.007 --> 01:21:47.427
Okay.

01:21:47.578 --> 01:21:48.028
Yeah.

01:21:48.207 --> 01:21:52.228
And, uh, are you willing to attempt that, uh, challenge?

01:21:52.287 --> 01:21:52.917
Yeah.

01:21:52.978 --> 01:21:56.698
So, uh, that's a really interesting one word.

01:21:56.728 --> 01:21:58.137
Well, you can expand beyond that after.

01:21:58.137 --> 01:21:58.408
Okay.

01:21:58.497 --> 01:21:58.738
Yeah.

01:21:58.738 --> 01:21:58.948
Alright, good.

01:21:58.953 --> 01:21:59.332
Some color on it.

01:21:59.332 --> 01:21:59.932
Good, good, good.

01:21:59.938 --> 01:21:59.948
Yeah.

01:21:59.948 --> 01:22:00.387
Yeah.

01:22:00.807 --> 01:22:05.818
So I would say, um, with Alex.

01:22:06.207 --> 01:22:07.528
The older one, Alexandra.

01:22:07.618 --> 01:22:13.858
Thoughtful in a way, like just a really good heart and really kind of considerate.

01:22:14.278 --> 01:22:18.207
Wants to be nice and kind and think about things Yeah.

01:22:18.417 --> 01:22:20.847
From your perspective and do the right thing.

01:22:21.658 --> 01:22:26.188
Um, and then with Anya, fun loving.

01:22:26.188 --> 01:22:27.653
I'm gonna put, do like a word.

01:22:27.653 --> 01:22:27.853
Yeah.

01:22:27.868 --> 01:22:28.887
You have a dash there.

01:22:28.887 --> 01:22:29.097
Yeah.

01:22:29.097 --> 01:22:32.757
Just like, you know, larger than life energy sometimes.

01:22:32.757 --> 01:22:34.972
Growing up she wanted to perform that adventure Inc.

01:22:34.972 --> 01:22:38.037
Excitement, do, you know, paint and do all this kind of stuff.

01:22:38.037 --> 01:22:42.898
And just, here I am world and let's, let's be present in the world.

01:22:42.898 --> 01:22:43.108
Yeah.

01:22:43.167 --> 01:22:43.528
Yeah.

01:22:43.557 --> 01:22:43.858
So.

01:22:44.262 --> 01:22:52.512
And, and of course they, they, they change as they get older and, you know, um, go through different phases, but they still have that.

01:22:52.722 --> 01:22:54.703
So your 18-year-old, is she graduating then?

01:22:55.033 --> 01:22:55.698
Yeah, right now.

01:22:55.698 --> 01:23:02.533
So she's about to graduate from high school here, and so she's gonna be going to CU Boulder and was really excited.

01:23:02.537 --> 01:23:02.547
Yeah.

01:23:02.622 --> 01:23:05.353
She's gonna study, uh, integrative physiology.

01:23:05.353 --> 01:23:07.903
She's already been taking some sports medicine classes.

01:23:08.023 --> 01:23:08.113
Mm-hmm.

01:23:08.353 --> 01:23:10.752
She's already already certified in working as a pt.

01:23:11.113 --> 01:23:13.273
She's been working at the local rec center gym.

01:23:13.363 --> 01:23:13.603
Nice.

01:23:13.693 --> 01:23:15.432
And she's just really thrilled about on that track.

01:23:15.462 --> 01:23:15.792
Yeah.

01:23:15.792 --> 01:23:24.194
It's, it's exciting to see her have something already, like I had at this point in my life when, when I was, that was 30 before I really, I wanted to do.

01:23:24.198 --> 01:23:24.417
Yeah.

01:23:24.493 --> 01:23:27.552
And she's just really excited and there's all sorts of different options, so.

01:23:27.552 --> 01:23:27.853
Cool.

01:23:27.943 --> 01:23:28.153
Yeah.

01:23:28.363 --> 01:23:37.273
Um, so I think what I wanna do is, um, shift it from there into the advice for that kind of age person.

01:23:37.273 --> 01:23:37.363
Mm-hmm.

01:23:37.662 --> 01:23:42.462
Maybe not your daughter, your 18-year-old daughter, but people in that age of new chapters.

01:23:42.672 --> 01:23:42.943
Mm.

01:23:43.243 --> 01:23:55.872
Um, with the world changing so fast and AI and entrepreneurship, and I saw a thing the other day that 60% of Gen Z want to have a business someday.

01:23:56.323 --> 01:23:56.922
Wow.

01:23:57.012 --> 01:23:58.662
Like, that's how high the level of.

01:23:59.018 --> 01:24:06.672
I, I would say it's probably the, the level of distrust for corporations and government has grown to is I just wanna work for me.

01:24:06.703 --> 01:24:08.052
'cause those can't trust those fighters.

01:24:09.762 --> 01:24:11.743
Um, but like, talk to me about that.

01:24:11.743 --> 01:24:13.422
Like, it's also hard, right?

01:24:13.422 --> 01:24:15.313
To get something, some kind of enterprise off the ground.

01:24:15.313 --> 01:24:21.342
Usually gotta fill your basket with a lot of different skills and experiences for five or 10 years before you even have a shot.

01:24:21.523 --> 01:24:21.762
Yeah.

01:24:22.092 --> 01:24:33.943
Um, but yeah, if you were, you know, the, the, I don't wanna say Alex because she's got her path already kind of sorted, but if you're wondering what your path is, how, how do you figure it out?

01:24:34.302 --> 01:24:34.453
Yeah.

01:24:34.453 --> 01:24:39.283
You've kind of been working on that kind of project a bit of setting your strategic plan.

01:24:39.403 --> 01:24:39.733
Yeah.

01:24:40.842 --> 01:24:40.993
Yeah.

01:24:40.993 --> 01:24:46.332
Still working on mine and it's a, it's that quest or that journey continues, but, but I would say.

01:24:46.797 --> 01:24:48.417
Uh, trust yourself.

01:24:49.108 --> 01:24:52.948
And part of that is also know yourself.

01:24:52.978 --> 01:24:53.368
Yeah.

01:24:53.398 --> 01:24:54.688
Learn about yourself.

01:24:54.688 --> 01:24:58.287
So I've been deeply influenced by the writings of, uh, Parker Palmer.

01:24:58.438 --> 01:24:58.738
Okay.

01:24:58.768 --> 01:25:01.497
Who's a Quaker author and educator.

01:25:01.738 --> 01:25:02.097
Okay.

01:25:02.368 --> 01:25:04.318
One of his books, it's a beautiful little book.

01:25:04.318 --> 01:25:07.018
It's called Let Your Life Speak.

01:25:07.542 --> 01:25:07.622
Hmm.

01:25:08.323 --> 01:25:14.457
And, uh, he makes the point that sometimes we're so busy and we're so noisy out there.

01:25:14.953 --> 01:25:19.302
Uh, achieving or striving or just doing, Hmm.

01:25:19.363 --> 01:25:24.042
That we don't get quiet like we talked about earlier and let our life speak.

01:25:24.042 --> 01:25:27.853
And so part of that, to me, it means like pay attention to the clues mm-hmm.

01:25:28.693 --> 01:25:29.037
Of who you are.

01:25:29.037 --> 01:25:29.358
Mm-hmm.

01:25:29.438 --> 01:25:34.632
And that's why in the coaching work that I do in my online course, we kind of go back and we really mind, first of all.

01:25:34.877 --> 01:25:36.137
Who are you?

01:25:36.497 --> 01:25:36.738
Yeah.

01:25:36.738 --> 01:25:39.693
Before we go to what, what's next, right?

01:25:39.698 --> 01:25:40.007
Yeah.

01:25:40.012 --> 01:25:40.092
Yeah.

01:25:40.307 --> 01:25:43.172
And I think a lot of people, they're not patient enough or they're kind of Yeah.

01:25:43.247 --> 01:25:43.368
Yeah.

01:25:43.368 --> 01:25:46.653
They're flippant about it and they're like, oh, you know, doesn't matter who I am, I just wanna know what's next.

01:25:46.658 --> 01:25:46.698
Yeah.

01:25:46.698 --> 01:25:55.307
Or I'm good and, you know, but, but there's real, you know, signs from your, your childhood and the, the childhood sparks of what do you read?

01:25:55.307 --> 01:25:57.557
What do you, what are you interested when Sure.

01:25:57.557 --> 01:26:00.497
Nobody's around, you know, what's a mystery for you?

01:26:00.497 --> 01:26:01.877
What do you get lost in?

01:26:02.057 --> 01:26:03.377
What are you good at?

01:26:03.648 --> 01:26:03.797
Yeah.

01:26:03.802 --> 01:26:04.938
What do you, what do you love?

01:26:05.177 --> 01:26:06.948
You know, all of those are clues.

01:26:07.007 --> 01:26:09.318
If you listen to pay attention a little bit.

01:26:09.377 --> 01:26:09.467
Yeah.

01:26:09.467 --> 01:26:12.587
Pay attention and then take action and start experimenting.

01:26:12.768 --> 01:26:17.387
And I don't think it's that you end up finding, I don't think we have one passion, typically.

01:26:17.387 --> 01:26:17.717
Sure.

01:26:18.018 --> 01:26:18.677
But I think.

01:26:19.332 --> 01:26:26.743
Angela Duckworth has said that we develop our passions more than we discover them, but there is some initial discovery work.

01:26:26.863 --> 01:26:27.372
Mm-hmm.

01:26:27.613 --> 01:26:27.613
Mm-hmm.

01:26:27.643 --> 01:26:29.533
Then you gotta just start playing with things.

01:26:29.537 --> 01:26:29.778
Yeah.

01:26:29.783 --> 01:26:30.012
Yeah.

01:26:30.012 --> 01:26:34.993
And trying it, and then you, then you deepen it and you kinda live into it, I think.

01:26:34.993 --> 01:26:35.233
Yeah.

01:26:35.233 --> 01:26:35.502
Yeah.

01:26:35.682 --> 01:26:41.023
And so, but a lot of people, they go with what their parents or what, what's cool.

01:26:41.113 --> 01:26:41.292
Yeah.

01:26:41.292 --> 01:26:46.903
Or with their friends or society, and they don't, they don't trust themselves enough.

01:26:46.962 --> 01:26:47.233
Yeah.

01:26:47.443 --> 01:26:50.233
Well, and listening I think is part of that too.

01:26:50.233 --> 01:26:50.292
Yeah.

01:26:50.323 --> 01:27:02.802
I was just reflecting on, probably when I was in my mid thirties, uh, one of my mentors at the bank, I was working in banking for a long time, and you'd write kind of a story about why this customer is gonna be able to pay back your loan, right?

01:27:02.802 --> 01:27:02.893
Mm-hmm.

01:27:03.313 --> 01:27:07.573
Like, here's, here's all the numbers, here's this and that, but here's some explanation.

01:27:07.603 --> 01:27:07.693
Mm-hmm.

01:27:07.932 --> 01:27:09.342
And here's some things I've learned.

01:27:09.448 --> 01:27:09.507
Yeah.

01:27:09.957 --> 01:27:13.738
And, and one of my mentors said, Kurt, you're such a gifted writer.

01:27:14.097 --> 01:27:18.778
Like the way that you write the story of this person, and it's just so convincing.

01:27:18.778 --> 01:27:23.337
And I can, I believe that you've done the work that you need to, to make sure that they're gonna pay this loan back.

01:27:23.368 --> 01:27:23.518
Yeah.

01:27:23.967 --> 01:27:27.537
And I was like, oh, like I'm 35.

01:27:27.537 --> 01:27:27.747
Right.

01:27:27.747 --> 01:27:30.297
I never really thought of myself as a writer at all.

01:27:30.358 --> 01:27:30.747
Yeah.

01:27:30.898 --> 01:27:38.997
Um, you know,'cause I, I'd written a lot, I'd journaled a lot over the years and things like that and, you know, done the essays when they were required and all, but not really.

01:27:40.033 --> 01:27:41.262
Thought about it more than that.

01:27:41.443 --> 01:27:41.712
Yeah.

01:27:41.953 --> 01:27:48.252
So like for me that was like just a, a little moment, but then when I started my business, I was like, well, I'm, I'm writing a blog now, you know?

01:27:48.387 --> 01:27:51.313
And, and'cause I, it helped me get myself outta my own head.

01:27:51.372 --> 01:27:51.823
Yes.

01:27:51.943 --> 01:27:59.592
And here you are doing the podcast and with communication of thoughts, of clarity, of thoughts and what am I gonna ask and correct how or where am I gonna go with this?

01:27:59.592 --> 01:28:01.122
That's related obviously.

01:28:01.243 --> 01:28:01.632
Totally.

01:28:01.637 --> 01:28:07.243
And, and, and I think your point at your story is interesting because a lot of times we might not see it.

01:28:07.603 --> 01:28:08.023
Yes.

01:28:08.023 --> 01:28:10.393
Our lived experience, it's so obvious.

01:28:10.422 --> 01:28:10.693
Yeah.

01:28:10.813 --> 01:28:11.592
You you're just doing it.

01:28:11.592 --> 01:28:12.222
You're just doing it.

01:28:12.222 --> 01:28:12.403
Yeah.

01:28:12.403 --> 01:28:12.404
Yeah.

01:28:12.408 --> 01:28:15.733
Just in a moment and somebody says, Kurt, you're really good at that.

01:28:15.972 --> 01:28:17.108
Like, oh, I am right.

01:28:17.113 --> 01:28:17.653
I didn't know it.

01:28:17.653 --> 01:28:18.613
I was just doing it.

01:28:18.672 --> 01:28:18.943
Yep.

01:28:19.002 --> 01:28:19.332
Right.

01:28:19.332 --> 01:28:23.382
And so you, and often that's that self-doubt or you just have no idea.

01:28:23.658 --> 01:28:26.298
What other people, what value other people could.

01:28:26.304 --> 01:28:26.422
Right.

01:28:26.427 --> 01:28:27.887
And it's hard to compare yourself.

01:28:27.887 --> 01:28:31.427
It's like even like if you read a bunch of other people's writing or whatever, you know?

01:28:31.427 --> 01:28:31.728
Right.

01:28:31.728 --> 01:28:43.307
In that case, uh, one of the things I've said about local think tank, this peer advisory that we do is over time you can kind of understand yourself better because of the eyes of others that are informing you.

01:28:43.337 --> 01:28:43.818
Yes.

01:28:44.028 --> 01:28:46.337
Um, because they get to really know you and see you.

01:28:46.518 --> 01:28:46.818
Yeah.

01:28:47.297 --> 01:28:47.568
Yeah.

01:28:47.688 --> 01:28:52.398
So I, I'm a huge fan of the peer advisory group model and all the different flavors.

01:28:52.398 --> 01:29:00.677
I think that both in business or whatever kind of work people do and in their life generally, having something like that for the.

01:29:01.302 --> 01:29:03.523
In part for the reason we're talking about now.

01:29:03.613 --> 01:29:04.005
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:29:04.243 --> 01:29:18.853
But also because, you know, there's a loneliness epidemic and a lot of people are so busy and, you know, one of the principles I think of life design that I've learned from some of the thinkers in this, in this space is they call it radical collaboration.

01:29:19.002 --> 01:29:19.122
Hmm.

01:29:19.212 --> 01:29:21.103
Stop doing so many things alone.

01:29:21.132 --> 01:29:21.403
Yeah.

01:29:21.403 --> 01:29:23.323
Stop being just in your head so much.

01:29:23.682 --> 01:29:28.962
Put it out there, be vulnerable, get some input, ask people about there, and go back and forth.

01:29:28.962 --> 01:29:37.932
And, you know, when you're a working parent, it's hard because juggling, you know, but, but there's so much, it's relationships back to what we talked about earlier.

01:29:38.323 --> 01:29:39.912
And so there's real value in that.

01:29:39.912 --> 01:29:43.453
Also learning about yourself by being in community with others.

01:29:43.457 --> 01:29:43.932
Yeah, yeah.

01:29:43.993 --> 01:29:48.283
While you're helping others and being helped and being, you know, you let people help you.

01:29:48.287 --> 01:29:48.578
Yeah.

01:29:48.578 --> 01:29:48.698
Yeah.

01:29:48.698 --> 01:29:49.453
And you ask for help.

01:29:49.453 --> 01:29:49.813
Totally.

01:29:49.932 --> 01:29:51.497
There's so much that comes up in that, huh?

01:29:51.568 --> 01:29:53.922
Yeah, I've, I've wondered so.

01:29:54.837 --> 01:29:58.108
One of our members said years ago, I think everybody should be in this.

01:29:58.648 --> 01:30:04.287
And, and she meant like every business owner kind of, but like part of me thinks everybody should be in it, you know?

01:30:04.287 --> 01:30:07.677
And, and I said, well, but only business owners will really pay for it.

01:30:07.858 --> 01:30:08.127
Yeah.

01:30:08.368 --> 01:30:10.108
Because, you know, we still gotta make money.

01:30:10.108 --> 01:30:12.507
And, but I, but I kind of think that.

01:30:13.842 --> 01:30:21.943
And maybe it's not us that provides that, but you're, you're probably right, like everybody could almost benefit by having a peer advisory kind of a group in their life.

01:30:22.212 --> 01:30:22.273
Yeah.

01:30:22.393 --> 01:30:30.342
And the abundance of people that would like to run one and help other 10 other people live a better life than they might otherwise.

01:30:30.432 --> 01:30:30.703
Yeah.

01:30:30.733 --> 01:30:31.932
Is intriguing as well.

01:30:31.932 --> 01:30:32.292
So, yeah.

01:30:32.382 --> 01:30:32.773
I don't know.

01:30:33.103 --> 01:30:37.182
Yeah, I, I think that would be wildly valuable to have.

01:30:37.403 --> 01:30:39.292
Everybody doing something like that.

01:30:39.502 --> 01:30:39.682
Right.

01:30:39.682 --> 01:30:40.462
Would be wonderful.

01:30:40.523 --> 01:30:47.422
Once a month, I get together for two hours with, you know, eight of my friends and neighbor, you know, they weren't my friends when I started, but I signed up for this group and here they are.

01:30:47.483 --> 01:30:47.752
Right.

01:30:47.813 --> 01:30:48.023
Yeah.

01:30:48.233 --> 01:30:53.903
And it doesn't have to be hard and complicated, you know, there's way you gotta get started, you know, maybe you can rotate facilitation.

01:30:53.903 --> 01:30:54.832
You guys have great markets.

01:30:54.832 --> 01:30:55.073
Right?

01:30:55.073 --> 01:30:55.073
Right.

01:30:55.462 --> 01:31:03.863
But you know, one of the things that I do with people in transition is sometimes I work with them alone, but I've done these weekend workshops Oh sure.

01:31:03.863 --> 01:31:05.243
And these group experiences.

01:31:05.273 --> 01:31:05.332
Yeah.

01:31:05.332 --> 01:31:09.863
Around crafting your life intentionally and your life and work.

01:31:10.162 --> 01:31:17.063
And it is so powerful when you sit down together with tools or just topics, you know, like what are your life traps?

01:31:17.063 --> 01:31:17.122
Yeah.

01:31:17.153 --> 01:31:19.762
Like we talked about earlier, what are your strengths?

01:31:19.853 --> 01:31:20.632
What are your passions?

01:31:20.632 --> 01:31:21.382
What are your values?

01:31:21.382 --> 01:31:22.372
Tell me your story.

01:31:22.672 --> 01:31:24.832
When did that value show up in your life?

01:31:24.832 --> 01:31:25.792
When did you honor it?

01:31:25.792 --> 01:31:27.592
When did you not honor that value?

01:31:27.622 --> 01:31:27.712
Mm-hmm.

01:31:27.953 --> 01:31:29.693
And just connecting around that.

01:31:30.233 --> 01:31:33.262
So one of the aspects, you know, in life.

01:31:33.912 --> 01:31:37.903
We all, I think, have a hunger for purpose and meaning at some level.

01:31:38.382 --> 01:31:38.472
Sure.

01:31:38.472 --> 01:31:45.132
One of the key ingredients of meaning it turns out according to the researchers is storytelling and coherence.

01:31:45.132 --> 01:31:45.193
Hmm.

01:31:45.853 --> 01:31:46.122
Right.

01:31:46.122 --> 01:31:54.792
So my life isn't coherent enough, or it's not clear that it's coherent enough unless I tell the story mm-hmm.

01:31:55.033 --> 01:31:57.368
To somebody and I hear myself telling it and they mm-hmm.

01:31:57.707 --> 01:32:02.323
And then it's like, oh, the red thread starts to appear before me and I see the patterns.

01:32:02.353 --> 01:32:02.622
Yeah.

01:32:02.622 --> 01:32:02.623
Yeah.

01:32:02.653 --> 01:32:05.623
But if I don't take the time to do that in community, yeah, yeah.

01:32:05.653 --> 01:32:10.092
It's lost and I don't have as much of a sense of coherence, which is one key aspect of me.

01:32:10.422 --> 01:32:19.063
So I was just thinking about your, your, I guess, predisposition to work with people in transition and in career change and stuff.

01:32:20.113 --> 01:32:27.073
I'm guessing that they don't pay as much as CEOs might for coaching in the leadership space or things like that.

01:32:27.432 --> 01:32:30.012
So this seems like more of a passion project that.

01:32:30.507 --> 01:32:36.148
It probably compensates you enough for your time, but isn't is motivated, but it's more about the purpose of it.

01:32:36.268 --> 01:32:37.167
It is, yeah.

01:32:37.167 --> 01:32:39.597
So to me there's different types of compensation.

01:32:39.597 --> 01:32:44.757
I talk about my monetary income and my psychic income as some people use that term.

01:32:45.448 --> 01:32:45.507
Yeah.

01:32:45.507 --> 01:32:51.268
You know, I'm, you know, for me it's really important to have a sense of purpose and passion with what I do.

01:32:51.358 --> 01:32:51.688
Yeah.

01:32:51.898 --> 01:32:53.037
I work really hard.

01:32:53.097 --> 01:33:00.118
I'm a big, you know, we're gonna, they say on average we work about 90,000 hours in a career and in advanced economies.

01:33:00.177 --> 01:33:00.478
Yeah.

01:33:00.658 --> 01:33:10.318
If I'm gonna put in 90,000 hours towards something, I want it to be something that engages me, that challenges me, that I feel I can have an impact.

01:33:10.318 --> 01:33:11.247
You know, that's hard.

01:33:11.247 --> 01:33:12.087
That's worth doing.

01:33:12.613 --> 01:33:17.278
And, and so, you know, that, that purpose aspect and then, you know, I think often I.

01:33:17.847 --> 01:33:23.608
A lot of us purpose is related to pain or our own life story.

01:33:23.698 --> 01:33:23.787
Mm-hmm.

01:33:24.087 --> 01:33:31.167
And so I've been through a lot of transitions in my life and it's been really good for me, but it's been hard at the same time.

01:33:31.167 --> 01:33:31.438
Right.

01:33:31.497 --> 01:33:39.537
So if I can help people have the courage to go to a transition and less worry, less fear and less worry, but also not chicken out.

01:33:39.542 --> 01:33:39.733
Mm-hmm.

01:33:39.813 --> 01:33:44.787
And avoid it because it's unclear or you're afraid, and then end up settling.

01:33:45.118 --> 01:33:45.328
Right.

01:33:45.328 --> 01:33:46.257
And, you know Yeah.

01:33:46.528 --> 01:33:51.087
Drifting and then regretting, you know, later like, oh, I had that dream that I wanted to do.

01:33:51.087 --> 01:33:51.597
Right, right.

01:33:51.597 --> 01:33:53.007
That venture that I wanted to try.

01:33:53.068 --> 01:33:53.278
Yep.

01:33:53.278 --> 01:33:53.457
Yep.

01:33:53.457 --> 01:33:56.818
I don't know if it's gonna work, but it might be nice to try it at some point in your life.

01:33:56.882 --> 01:33:57.172
Yeah.

01:33:57.177 --> 01:33:57.328
Yeah.

01:33:57.387 --> 01:33:57.807
I dig it.

01:33:58.018 --> 01:33:58.257
Yeah.

01:33:58.497 --> 01:34:02.015
Um, let's talk about your loco experience.

01:34:45.372 --> 01:34:45.972
Mm.

01:34:46.092 --> 01:34:46.722
You have a good one.

01:34:47.143 --> 01:34:47.682
More than one.

01:34:49.002 --> 01:34:51.042
Well, I've got a fun one that comes to mind.

01:34:51.042 --> 01:34:51.073
Okay.

01:34:51.103 --> 01:34:58.153
So, uh, when I was in graduate school in London, it was really cool to, uh, live abroad for the first time.

01:34:58.153 --> 01:35:00.493
I had traveled a little bit, but living abroad, right.

01:35:00.493 --> 01:35:10.813
Had kind of early twenties and developed a great friends group of, uh, half Spanish, half Brit, close friend, Dutch friend, couple of Americans.

01:35:10.813 --> 01:35:16.063
And then we had a very global, um, hall where we were living out in, in London.

01:35:16.092 --> 01:35:16.453
There was this.

01:35:17.037 --> 01:35:19.467
Prior to you meeting Christina, or you'd already met her?

01:35:19.467 --> 01:35:20.158
This was, this was prior.

01:35:20.278 --> 01:35:20.518
Okay.

01:35:20.523 --> 01:35:21.297
This was just prior.

01:35:21.328 --> 01:35:28.497
I was gonna say, you probably might not have been cool enough, uh, to snag that Swedish girl, if not for that international experience.

01:35:28.497 --> 01:35:28.648
Boom.

01:35:29.247 --> 01:35:29.488
Exactly.

01:35:29.488 --> 01:35:30.238
Anyway, keep going.

01:35:30.328 --> 01:35:30.658
Yeah.

01:35:31.198 --> 01:35:34.858
So, Miguel, the Spanish, Brit, he's got a car.

01:35:34.858 --> 01:35:36.028
He, he lives there.

01:35:36.057 --> 01:35:39.957
And we're gonna go visit our, our, our Dutch friend's, uh, family.

01:35:39.957 --> 01:35:44.908
So we're gonna take the car down to the ferry, catch the ferry, and go to the Netherlands.

01:35:44.938 --> 01:35:45.028
Yep.

01:35:45.028 --> 01:35:46.797
And you spend a weekend or whatever we're gonna do.

01:35:46.797 --> 01:35:50.307
And so there's, uh, a group of us in his red Ford escort.

01:35:50.307 --> 01:35:55.557
And so, and I've got my guitar there because we're jamming in Covent Garden and everything.

01:35:55.557 --> 01:35:59.847
We're kind of playing music and stuff and we're loading up and it's all blah, blah.

01:35:59.847 --> 01:36:05.217
And I'm studying the European Union economic community or European community at that point it was called and everything.

01:36:05.247 --> 01:36:06.807
'cause I was studying comparative government.

01:36:06.807 --> 01:36:06.868
Yeah.

01:36:06.988 --> 01:36:08.158
I didn't think that was gonna come together, honestly.

01:36:08.368 --> 01:36:08.698
Yeah.

01:36:08.757 --> 01:36:08.908
Yeah.

01:36:09.688 --> 01:36:15.297
And so we're on the way to the ferry in the car and we're like, okay, it's getting a little close and.

01:36:15.837 --> 01:36:16.618
And it's okay.

01:36:16.618 --> 01:36:17.278
Got everything.

01:36:17.278 --> 01:36:20.278
You got your toothbrush, you gotta change your clothes, you got your bathing suit.

01:36:20.307 --> 01:36:21.118
'cause we're gonna go to the beach.

01:36:21.118 --> 01:36:21.387
Yep.

01:36:21.568 --> 01:36:22.318
Passport.

01:36:23.787 --> 01:36:27.087
And I go, oh, I'm not sure if I have my passport.

01:36:27.087 --> 01:36:30.387
I'm like, oh, I just, you, I was in Europe and I'm studying Europe.

01:36:30.417 --> 01:36:30.807
Europe.

01:36:30.807 --> 01:36:32.037
It's like, no borders.

01:36:32.037 --> 01:36:34.858
It's supposed to, I just forgot to bring my passport.

01:36:34.858 --> 01:36:46.648
And we're like on the way there and we're like, um, we could try to go back and if we go a hundred miles an hour, you know, we might make the ferry, but we'll probably get, you know, we could die.

01:36:46.648 --> 01:36:46.707
Or.

01:36:48.193 --> 01:36:50.292
Ah, we'll just, we'll just go and see.

01:36:50.412 --> 01:36:51.042
See if it works.

01:36:51.042 --> 01:36:51.703
See if it works.

01:36:51.703 --> 01:36:56.443
So, okay, now we're plotting our strategy for when we get to the border control.

01:36:57.042 --> 01:36:58.332
Now we get to the border control, right?

01:36:58.813 --> 01:36:59.983
There's five of us packed.

01:36:59.983 --> 01:37:02.983
We'll put Greg in the trunk, packed in this Ford Escort with the guitar.

01:37:03.222 --> 01:37:09.582
It's a big acoustic guitar case on top of us, and we're like, okay, we have four passports for five people.

01:37:09.703 --> 01:37:10.993
Which one are we gonna put on top?

01:37:10.993 --> 01:37:13.993
We're gonna put the British one, we're gonna put the Americans, we're gonna put the Dutch one.

01:37:14.203 --> 01:37:17.408
We're like literally trying to strategize the order to just, yeah.

01:37:17.408 --> 01:37:17.408
Yeah.

01:37:17.412 --> 01:37:24.222
And so the border agent looks very closely, the first passport, looks in, looks very closely at the second passport.

01:37:24.222 --> 01:37:28.302
Looks in looks and went all the passports that we gave, but never counted.

01:37:28.363 --> 01:37:28.813
Yeah.

01:37:28.813 --> 01:37:28.872
Yeah.

01:37:29.268 --> 01:37:30.318
We just made it through.

01:37:31.007 --> 01:37:34.217
And so that was my first experience was smuggling myself abroad.

01:37:34.217 --> 01:37:34.307
Nice.

01:37:34.337 --> 01:37:35.927
Illegally across borders.

01:37:36.382 --> 01:37:37.203
Get, and then we got there.

01:37:37.203 --> 01:37:37.922
Did you get, okay.

01:37:37.967 --> 01:37:41.537
And then we got there and then we're like, oh no, I didn't have an idea.

01:37:41.537 --> 01:37:41.842
Gonna get back.

01:37:43.127 --> 01:37:47.268
So then we're calling and we had my passport shipped to Oh IDEA International FedEx.

01:37:47.268 --> 01:37:47.627
There you go.

01:37:47.658 --> 01:37:52.967
And it arrived literally like minutes before we had to leave to go back, which is another part of the story.

01:37:52.967 --> 01:37:53.328
I like it.

01:37:53.537 --> 01:37:54.018
I like it.

01:37:54.557 --> 01:37:55.398
I like that trust.

01:37:55.667 --> 01:37:55.938
Yeah.

01:37:56.057 --> 01:37:58.938
Uh, of just being like, well, yeah, you know, it doesn't work.

01:37:58.938 --> 01:37:59.177
Go for it.

01:37:59.238 --> 01:38:01.667
If it doesn't work, you know, then we can take me away.

01:38:01.698 --> 01:38:02.028
Yeah.

01:38:02.028 --> 01:38:02.478
Whatever.

01:38:02.478 --> 01:38:05.898
We can go back and get my passport and take the next barrier or whatever.

01:38:06.137 --> 01:38:06.438
Yeah.

01:38:06.707 --> 01:38:09.002
It was part of the spirit of our group at the time, so Yeah.

01:38:09.042 --> 01:38:09.403
I dig it.

01:38:09.528 --> 01:38:09.707
Yeah.

01:38:09.768 --> 01:38:13.728
Um, by the way, any, uh, do you have music still going on in your world?

01:38:14.127 --> 01:38:16.318
Um, not as much as I'd like.

01:38:16.318 --> 01:38:18.328
We, uh, more just campfire stuff.

01:38:18.328 --> 01:38:24.988
Occasionally in the summertime we jam a little bit and uh, and go to some live shows, but we need to bring that back.

01:38:24.988 --> 01:38:26.307
I kinda miss that aspect.

01:38:26.307 --> 01:38:30.148
And my wife is a beautiful singer and it's really nice to make music together.

01:38:30.238 --> 01:38:32.787
Well, I hope you keep making music together for a long time.

01:38:32.847 --> 01:38:33.387
Thank you.

01:38:33.387 --> 01:38:34.768
I'm thankful for the time today.

01:38:34.768 --> 01:38:34.887
Me too.

01:38:35.037 --> 01:38:38.877
And, uh, yeah, look forward to reconnecting again soon.

01:38:39.238 --> 01:38:39.747
Likewise.

01:38:39.747 --> 01:38:40.347
Thank you Kurt.

01:38:40.347 --> 01:38:40.917
Guys, be Greg.

01:38:41.217 --> 01:38:41.578
You too.