EXPERIENCE 21 | Examining a Life of Purpose with Zach Mercurio

Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast with LOCO Think Tank Founder Kurt Bear. Listen in as Kurt digs deep into the business and life stories of business owners and thought leaders at different stages of growth from all walks of life. Launching and growing anything can be a crazy experience, so expand your thinking and level up your understanding of what it takes to find success in the world of free enterprise. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear, and I'm joined today by Zach Mercurio. Zach is the founder and owner of ZM Consulting and the author of The Invisible Leader, and I'm just really glad to have you here today, Zach. Why don't you set the stage by just sharing what is ZM Consulting, who is Zach, who you serve and what are you doing? I help people create environments for other people in which they feel like they matter, they feel like they experience meaningfulness, they feel positive, and it just so happens that's in the place where they spend 35% of their waking life at work. And so my main job right now is to help equip leaders with those skills to be able to cultivate those types of environments. You said, feel like, like, are you fooling them into thinking that they feel like. So actually helping them, helping them feel like they matter, you know, in that place where they spend a large portion of their lives. And only 35% feels like way more than that though. Well, there's a third of your life that you spent sleeping, a third of your life you spend at work, and the rest of the 30 of your life you spend enjoying your life and whatever way you want to. And the problem is is that unless you enjoy your life when you're at work, unless you enjoy your life or when you're at work, but there's an inextricable link between how we think about ourselves at work and not at work. And so how we make meaning in work inevitably affects how we make meaning outside of work. So you help employers, help their people see the purpose and the thing. And I also help employees too. I do a lot of work with like frontline employees, especially that was what my research was in and help people to experience more purpose in doing what they're doing on an everyday basis and help see that I call it, you know, upstream thinking, be able to see how what they're doing makes an impact on something else and contributes. Get up and see the bigger picture if you might. Yeah. Yeah. And feel a sense of self-worth and what you're doing in a part of that upstream part. Like if I'm a raindrop, I'm still part of the river. Yeah. But having them believe it in a real practical sense because in a lot of, I mean, in a lot of workplaces, there's a large segment of the workforce that indicates that they feel invisible, but they're not seen. They're not heard. People don't know their full names, don't know who their kids are. And we know that that sense of mattering has significant health and impacts on humans. Yeah. Somebody said to me once, I'm not a customer being cared for by my employer, like you do. Yeah. And I was like, well, that's sad, you know, but it's probably true too much. Oh, it's too much. A lot of people say to me, well, Zach, the stuff you do is kind of like common sense. Like care for people. Make them feel like they matter. Notice them. Affirm them. Make them feel like they're needed. And you know, it's the Stephen Covey quote that I always go back to is that common sense isn't common practice. And noticing others, making others feel like they matter from a data standpoint is not common practice. Like tell me more, like from a date, like how many people are disengaged or I'm not concerned with disengagement, I'm not as concerned with disengagement because engagement is we like to measure engagement. That's like a business thing. And that's a lagging indicator, right? If someone doesn't feel like they matter, it's extremely easy for nothing to matter. So what I mean by a leading indicator of engagement is first meaningfulness. I mean, we have to care about whatever it is that we're doing in order to do it. I mean, can you tell me the last time you were fired up about something someone told you you had to do? No, but that's how we manage people all the time. Yeah. You just have to do this. You gotta get the numbers up. Get the numbers up. You know, it's just, it's a disease, I think, actually. And so when we look at what, when we look at motives for people, like motivations, right? We know people are motivated by competency, by being good at something, people are motivated by meaningfulness, but they're also motivated by a feeling of that they're important. People want significance, want to see themselves that significant. So in light of that, like how can you actually, do you just unfold like the real story about how or why? What do I do? Yeah, how do you do it? Depends? So the first thing I do with leaders is I have them think about a moment in their life, the first moment in which they felt like they mattered. What would you say, Kurt? Gally, I don't know. I suppose for me, it might have been when I was moving from the bank in Windsor, Bank of Colorado, I was about a 24-year-old young lender, and I was moving to Bank of Colorado and Colorado Springs. And my boss at the time, Tom Pranger, was like, you know, we're going to miss you here. You're not that fast, you're not that good at work, but everybody sure seems so like you. And you know of that. It was a backhand accompaniment, but it made it feel like I was going to be missed when I was gone. Yeah, and that's so right there, like being needed. That's one component of mattering. For example, how many Zoom calls have you been on where if it's a regular meeting and it's a standing meeting every week, and someone's not there, but just the next week people get on and they just go on with their business, like as if the person was at the last meeting. I coach leaders to literally just stop and say, hey, we really missed you last time. And here's why. Here's what we wish you could have had input on, you know, you want to share anything. Because the existential cost of being forgotten, you know, research finds that one moment of being forgotten, when someone forgets your name, or when someone forgets that you were there correlates with lower feelings of meaning in life, one moment, I mean, you know those people that you interact, you know, when you send an email to somebody and you haven't talked to them in six months, and then they reply to the email and they ask you about a project you were working on when you last talked, right? You know how that like all of it's all it's instant, right? It's like, gosh, like someone they heard me. Yeah, those are hard skills. And I think that in business and in leadership, like we don't tend to think of those things as hard skills, but they are, like that's a habit. Like when someone is not at a meeting, the habit is, I will tell them, I miss them and tell them why. When I say thank you to someone, I will show them the difference that they made through acknowledging their strengths. When I meet someone new, I will learn their full names and learn who their kids are, right? And you may say, well, that's just being a good person. Like that's just normal, right? But what we find when we look at leaders who do it well, it's not just left up to intuition, it's a practice. And I think leadership is like being an athlete, it's going back to the fundamentals, you know, and I think mattering is one of those fundamentals that can get overlooked in the, in sort of the tyranny of the urgent, right, the rat race, everything else. I'm thinking about myself and I think I do sometimes give credit pretty well or whatever recognition. And then sometimes I just miss it and I, and I don't. And then I think, okay, so maybe as a better leader, should I have a checklist, you know, make sure I give a compliment once a week or, or whatever, like, how do you, is that, like, is it just as simple as that? I see a nodding over there. Yeah, I'm thinking of that because there's two sides of that. You don't want it to become so routine that it becomes inauthentic, right? You know, because I've met those people that are like, you know, I say thank you at the end of every shift. Why don't, why don't these people feel that, right? And then I talk to the people and they're like, yeah, just thank you every time the same empty way. Right. You know, and so there's a guy at a gas station that, that, uh, he calls me brother all the time. I'm like, I know, so, so the key is, is to do it in your authentic way. I mean, I never coach people to like take what I think they should do and just do it because a best practice without context is a terrible practice. Right. You know, so you can stuff like that. So figure out a way that you can do it. You know, one of the, I worked with a team and they were like, probably the team that has the most reverence for their leader that I've ever worked on, right? And they, and they would talk about like, oh, she just has our back. She's amazing. They just light up every time they talk about it. And I asked her, I was like, how do you do that? And she said to me, she pulls out this old mold. And why did she hire you? She must have figured out already. Well, no, they, they get some other issues going on, I'm not going to name who they are. But she pulled out a, uh, moleskin notebook and she said, you know, I'm a task master by nature. Like, I just, I just drive and I get things done. And I realized that I had to start writing down things I overheard about my team. Like, and she would write down on this notebook, like, so and so's father is sick. Um, they hurt, she heard them talking about a particular hobby or their kid, right? And so every time she would go into a one-on-one, she would take that notebook out just like you take a notebook out anyway, right? And just be like, how's your dad doing? Yeah. And it was those little things, right? So that's a deliberate practice. Mm-hmm. So that's self-awareness. Somebody realizes that they drive hard with tasks, which is nothing wrong with that. And they realize that that was undercutting their team's morale because they didn't get to come and get to know them. Yeah. And she took processes that they already have, one-on-ones, everybody has some sort of one-on-one that's listening, probably at some point, sure. And incorporated a practice of mattering into it. So these are not like, it's not rocket science, but when practiced, it really can transform people. I mean, the thing that I love most about my work, and I was on a podcast earlier today, actually, another podcast, and they ask me, what do you love most about your work? And what I love is when I get to see a human realize that they matter, like in front of me, someone who may not have been noticed or missed or seen for years, 12, 13, 14, 15 years on a job. And the first time they realize that people rely on them, people need them, I mean, that is there's nothing like that. And they probably realize that not only do they rely on them, but they have relied on me for years. And I know. And appreciated me, but I maybe just didn't hear it right, or it didn't feel it right, or they didn't express it right. So I have a confession as in our last, we've been acquainted for a couple of years. And I kind of thought you were a college professor with a little side hustle of this consulting thing and stuff, and you're correct, and you're like, no, I've got a little side hustle of some agic professoring, but ZM consulting is my business. And that's my main kind of thing I apologize, I didn't know. I thought you were like a, you're a PhD in all these academic, you know, those thinking heads. But I want to hear about like that start, like you were a presumably a college professor researcher kind of guy, and you're like, okay, I'm think I'm going to give up most of my income sources and be a consultant and be a, that's pretty much it. So I'll tell you, I mean, I'll tell you how I got here. Yeah, you're not a little bit, do you want me to get to that? Yeah, let's get into that. And then we'll jump in the way back of who's that is. But yeah, let's just get into that. I used to work in advertising in Washington DC. And I write about this and I talk about this a lot because it was a really important lesson for me. I was a salesperson. And I think everybody should get into sales at some point, because you get to interact with a lot of human beings. Sure. And these were human beings that needed what I had, right? I worked for a big agency. Which I could sell that kind of thing. People just maybe want what I, they don't want my head. They did like need it. I mean, you know, at that point, it was 2006, digital advertising. Sure. It was a big deal. Like people were buying banner ads. That was the thing, you know, whoa. And it was pretty inexpensive and people, so I was out there talking to these human beings, like they had these businesses as their dreams. And they would be opening restaurants and things in the DC area and buying digital advertising from us. But then I would go back to the office and all we would do every friggin week is talk about sales goals, targets, and these people as if they were just like little like sales on an Excel sheet. Yeah. And every time I'd go on Monday, everybody was talking about, you know, what did you do last weekend? What are you doing this weekend? Living for the weekend. Crazy. But it really is. I mean, think about it. You may think like it's, no, it's culturally. People live for two-sevenths of their lives, like earlier, we were joking a little bit about like the one-third piece. But literally, the system has been set up for us to think it's okay to trudge through one-third of our life. Right. So we can enjoy one-third of our life that we're not sleeping with. Well, except for the other one-third, like half of that time, at least you have to do the dishes and fix the art of the fence and, you know, help to get the homeworks. Yeah, exactly. But really, I mean, that's the, like, I'm not trying to be polyanna about work. I'm just saying, like, that's the fact. Yeah, work is still work, but finding purpose and fulfillment in that work. Yeah. When you're there. So, like, if you could have talked to those customers that used your digital ads and it's helped them really grow their business and keep involved in those stories and things like that. I mean, if I knew what I knew now about work and how to craft work is meaningful, I think I could probably have been really good in advertising and I probably would have really found a lot of joy in it and probably would have been better than everybody else. Probably. Why not? Yeah, you could have managed others, perhaps. But what happened is I was under pressure to, like, make a lot of unethical decisions about getting a lot of money out of people to make money. And you could see that toll on the team. And like, I often say that when you live by a result, you die by a result. So when we didn't meet a financial goal, dead, right? So like, you're just going these ups and downs and in business, you know, that is not a sustainable way to live. No. If you live by the quarterly earnings report, which a lot of teams do, I mean, you're just going through the cycle of ups and downs, ups and downs, ups and downs. And I was like, there's got to be something else more. And I sort of went through a mini existential crisis and I just, I would just observe people around DC, like people who were just joyful. I met one of my biggest influences as a cab driver and I write about it in the book. And the influence of it though is that he was just so happy about talking about his work, yeah, proud of his work. And I was like, how do we learn that? How do we teach that? I think the people that I'm most drawn to, you know, in the community and around, are they're passionate about something? Yeah. And whether they're passionate about, you know, giving cat rescues or this or that, like, if they're driven in their work, and that's why I know so many nonprofit leaders and things like that, because you're just like a magnet to me if you're like drawn to the things that you're doing. They're just there when they're there, you know, like when they're doing their work, they're there and you can just feel it. And I, I'm just like, why, why can this, as this cab driver, crafting this perspective and live in this joyous life, but up in the office building and rock film. You're making four times as much money as he is, right? And that's where you go back to, I mean, we know money does not equal long term fulfillment in any sense of the word. So, I mean, that's just, that's just clear, like, we know it's good to exercise at this point. Right. So, it doesn't. And so, I actually went into higher ed after that. I went back to work on higher ed and I did like advising for students figuring out their majors, because I wanted to make sure nobody ended up like me. Didn't get in the wrong spot, yeah. Right. And there was this real hunger for this, I mean, to think about before, I mean, as you think about your, you developing or listeners, as you were developing. And when we think about, just think about basic art, right? We tend to do this wrong as human beings. We try to put function, we try to put form before function. So, we try to figure out what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, what career we're going to do, before we know why we are, what our strengths are, how we want to make a difference. Totally. So, I think like, architecture, right? Yeah. I was pretty good at math and did function bring up like a, well, I was, like, young age, I was, and then calculus was way harder and stuff. And then, like, I found out, like, what a job an engineering would be like, and that would be, like, largely cubicle and head down and working on stuff and I was like, I don't think so. I have it the wrong major. Did not build that way. No. Exactly. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I ended up being a banker and doing stuff, but that was way better because I could go and learn about people and things and I wouldn't have to just like, and I was lucky for discovering that because if all I was doing was kind of listening to the people that had a plan for my life. Exactly. Kurt. Yeah. Well, thank you. Because you learned how you were built. Started before you started just, well, you did it before I invested in all of it. The only two other ways of two years before I, but I mean, there are so many people that latch on to someone else's plan for their life and eventually that tension of your gifts and the impacts that you want to make will become at odds with the context and what you're doing it in. Fair. Fair. So that was my goal, right? And then what happened is people started, people who worked at the university were like, we need this. We need to understand why we are, why what we're doing matters, like what are our strengths are, how those strengths make a difference. I started doing a lot of training on campus. So I got into training and development work with teams. And then what happened was, is that all of my students and anybody who left the university that was in my trainings, they went out and worked in organizations and businesses like trying to do with your purpose techniques and stuff. Well, yeah. And then they were like, Zach, we need you to come here. Trust me, there is always a market for meaning, right? For sure. I will tell you that. There is. And I would go and do these sessions on crafting, work is purposeful. And then I was like, hey, like I could study this. This would be cool. I want to know as much as I can about meaningfulness. Yeah. Then I, that's why I got the PhD. So it wasn't like you like planned this kind of thing and okay, once I write the book, then I'll. No, Kurt. Kurt, listen to this advertising eight years in higher education, moon lighting, the last three years doing consulting work. So at night, I would like five to nine or whatever. Yeah, you do take a Thursday. Finding websites, doing consulting work. Yeah, I remember that. I remember one time I was meeting with a student that I had to fly to Detroit to work with a big robotics company on selling with purpose. And I was advising someone on their career plan the day before. Right. So like, I mean, that's how a lot of these things start. All right. Do anything for anybody to pay you a little bit if you think you could pull it off. Well, and then, but Anne, I loved that. Anne researching and getting yourself smarter and smarter. So and then I got, I was like, I could get a PhD and the university will pay for it while I'm working there. Yeah. So that's a good thing. And people have to call you a doctor. I'm sorry, I didn't introduce you as Dr. Zach Maccurio. Please don't call me doctor. I'm not going to resuscitate you or something happens. But well, I'll be try. I would try. I can recite some theory to you, maybe, maybe you'd come to life for a meaningful work. The test pumps is more important. They say now than the kissy face. I know. So, yeah, so I did that and that was so rewarding for me. Like, I didn't get a PhD to get a PhD. When I was getting a PhD, people were asking me, why are you getting a PhD? And I said, or what are you going to do when you get your PhD? And I was like, I don't know, the same thing I'm doing now. I just like was obsessed with learning as much as I could about something. Yeah. And then I just, I was like, I can do this full time. Yeah. There's enough demand for my services and then I crashed into the wall of entrepreneurship. Right. Well, it's hard to do all the things a little bit. And I learned a lot, though. Do you want to take us through that journey and like, like, what 2012, because I know you did a lot of in person speaking and stuff. Like, you want to talk about what 2020 was like for you or like, or is it easier now because everything's virtual, so much the lubrication in that system or what's that for the business of ZM consulting? Yeah. I mean, I lost about half my business, half my revenue. I would honestly say in my inbox on a Friday afternoon when everything shut down, I got probably half my revenue canceled. Like in a couple of weeks, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah. And I have two kids, I had two kids take care of it. I was gonna say, how did your wife respond to that? Well, I did the anti-purposeful stuff thing. I freaked out. Right. And what I mean by that is that slowly, what I crept into my psyche is that I had tied my worth to what I did, the purpose guy, right? To what I did and what I got for what I did. And I had to really step back and say, like, who am I apart from what I do and what I get for what I do? And I remember I was actually, I was in my kid's daycare parking lot, and I told this story before, but I was on my email trying to get these gigs back. Like, oh, do anything. You know, like, hey, and I forgot to pick up my kids. I was in the parking lot on my phone, and I went in as like 530s about to like shut down. This is when you start getting charged over time. Right. You would sit at the parking lot for an hour. I know. Seeker. You thought it was some responsible person. And then I go in, and then I go in, and my two-year-old, like, comes running up to me and he, two at the time and he gives me a big hug, right? And it's like, doesn't, I mean, he doesn't care about my lost revenue. He cares that I'm there, and I had a huge realization after reflecting on that, that I got to figure out, like, I got to do some work on who am I, what are my values, who am I being before I let myself get so attached to what I'm doing. And so my, my big, I was working with clients at the time who were calling me up being like, we don't have time for this purpose stuff, we're trying to survive. And I, you know, at first I was like, oh, okay, whatever. But then I started asking them and myself some questions, like, survive for what? Right. Like, what are you surviving for? And that, that was fun to do with clients. And some clients started coming back when I started asking that, or like, instead of how are we going to get through this, I started asking who needs me to get through this. And I started to just use my skills to help people. And I did a lot of, like, free stuff. And it, it almost goes back to my first year of entrepreneurship when I did 40 free speaking engagements, right, to just talk about what I did. And I, I just started doing free things. I mean, I was doing free things for companies, free webinars for people just to talk about purpose in a pandemic and all of that. And that led to some really exciting things. So instead of just doing speaking, a lot of speaking, which was a large share of my revenue, to be honest with you, I'm doing a lot more coaching, one-on-one coaching. Really? Yeah. And it's really rewarding. And I'm doing a lot of group coaching. So with managers, peer coaching on some of this work, virtually works really well, virtually, actually a group of five or six people. And so there's some awesome opportunities that have come out of it that have revealed themselves through, I would say, this is cliche, but I would say pivoting on purpose, you know, like, being able to say, I'm pivoting for what or who needs me to get through this was the impetus for innovation. And I would imagine for any entrepreneur, like, the human problem that you exist to solve and how you solve those human problems should be your boss. The human problem. You exist to solve should be your boss. Oh, the problem that you're trying to figure out, I agree. Like it should, that's why you should not fix to a method either. For me, like business owners feel alone and unequipped to understand the complexities of growing their organizations. And so local think tank. Yeah. So that, when I realized that, when I realized I was putting that, like, how can I help more, which was the opposite reaction you normally have is like, what am I doing? I'm freaking out, right? I was just surprised that, like, I learned some new things about myself, like coaching skill or group coaching, peer coaching is a big part of my offering now because of the pandemic. Awesome. So there's some silver linings. There always is. Yeah. Yeah. Has the overall purpose for ZAC or ZM consulting changed? What's your, you know, if five years from now, I've had the impact that I'd really like to have with my work, dream and big, like, what are you trying to create? Like a machine that magnifies purpose for people all over the world? I would say that I, I think that's a, there's a machine is the business aspect. And I would actually, I know we're talking about my business, but I would say that I run a practice. Yeah. Not necessarily a business. Okay. And there's a lot of doctors out there. Yeah. Like a business is, you know, business is something you can scale and possibly sell on its value on its own. And a lot of people business coaches will come to me and be like, Zack, you gotta stop trading your time for money. You've got to scale. But my time is my, is my thing. I mean, that's my product. And so I've actually transitioned into being okay with running a practice. Yeah. Totally okay. There's no judgment here. And I mean, to be honest with you, for listeners out there, like I consider, I recommend that you consider, especially if you're solo-pronore, what it looks like to run a practice versus running a business because it's really helpful distinction. You might cause you to try to do some less things to a certain extent. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So let's learn about little Zack, third grade Zack. Like where did you come from to be this high-falutin advertising exec in Washington, G.C. and all that? I wasn't high-falutin. Well, at tree level, whatever. So what do you want to know? Yeah. Do you want to know? Third grade. Like, did you grow up rural urban? Did you have a bunch of brothers and sisters? Like did you? So half an hour north of Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. Middle-class Italian family. Both parents worked. Mom worked the night shift six o'clock to 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. as a psychiatric nurse and a public psychiatric hospital. Dad, my dad has had the same job since I was born, I think. He works with kids with developmental disabilities at a hospital, works with group homes. And so I guess there is some psychological psychiatric background, right? And I was youngest of three brothers, okay. And I will tell you this, the reason why I got into that advertising job was because I was the youngest. And when you're the youngest, you get really good at either comparing yourself or entertaining yourself. Right. And I was really curious because I had to, you know, my mom would find me outside with tin foil wrapped onto my bike, my huffy bike riding up the road in a thunderstorm pretending I was a storm chaser. Right. I would, and then I would tie brooms to my bike and pretend I was a street sweeper. I was always like, I loved, I was really curious about these, like, work. Yeah. To be honest, different people's occupations. I was always out, like, watching the garbage people. I mean, I loved it. I loved that. Yeah. But, um, but that whole, like, trying to find significance because my brothers put a lot of pressure on me, not they didn't do anything. But I mean, just by virtue of existing and being older and tougher, probably, yeah. And I, um, so I searched a lot of places for significance, sports, friends, um, and then when I was in college, I knew that I wanted, I knew deep down that I wanted to do something like what I'm doing now, but it wasn't in a course catalog. Right. And so I saw all my friends getting these starting salaries, you know, you know, when, when I was in college, sophomore year, they would start tracking you into the entry level like associate positions, you know, like you'd go through a track to go work at Deloitte or KVG or something. Yeah. And I was so jealous of people on that track and I remember I became so obsessed with the idea of being successful, then I became with the idea of being myself. And I faked my way into that advertising job. I joined the pre-advertising club. I didn't even want to do it. I really want to think back on it. I just wanted the nice watch and to be meeting my future life partner at a happy hour and say, hey, I'm an advertising, how cool with that sound. What was your major? Uh, I was a journalism major with advertising, concentration, okay. And that was my third major and I had to choose it. I first was a psychology major. Didn't work out well. Right. I'm interestingly enough. Isn't this funny? Didn't work out well. No, not surprisingly. Uh, and then I switched to philosophy because I like thinking about a bunch of stuff. And I went to a pre-law club meeting and I was like, how cool to look if I was a lawyer. Right. I could, are you pretty good? I could wear a suit. Like I'd be sad. Like my family would love me. That's how people pick their majors by the way now. I think it's what they're going to look like. And anyway, and I think that's the problem with higher education. But I also, so I, so I ended up being an advertising major and I never asked that why question. But I think it goes back to, and I think what I do now, honestly, goes back to my five-year-old self. Right. Like I, I think that I really help people realize their own significance in work. And I think that that's what I needed. It's an interesting, uh, resident point. You're having a therapeutic session with me now. No, that's good. Yeah. Just lean back a little bit. Put your feet up. What's in this? So I was, I was thinking to myself that just like there's all the different jobs in the world, there's all the different ways of creating a business, creating an enterprise, you know? Yeah. There's just like, you just don't even know all these different ways of all, you know, there's pizza companies and there's this and that. You know, radon mitigation companies that just all that they do is that. And, you know, all these different ways that people add value to each other's life. Tons of human needs that need to be filled. Right. Never ending supply. Never ending supply. Until the robots come. Yeah. Then what are we going to do to find purpose? Well, I think somebody's going to have to feed the robots. That the title for this episode. It might be somebody's going to have to feed the robots. So anyway. So, you know, what I've learned so far is, you know, kind of high achieving very perceptions focused young Zach, but always trying to figure people out, always trying to figure himself out probably, always trying to figure out. I was not high achieving, by the way. Oh, you limped into the app title. Yeah, like if you were to tell my school friends now that I have a PhD, they would laugh. I mean, if they're listening, I'll send this to them. And they were like, well, it was a commission thing. Yeah. It was. The advertising was commission. Right. Everything was commission then and digital advertising. Sure. Because nobody knew what if it would work. Right. But I was good at it. Right. Well, you're likable. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, I'm going to say at least one nice thing about every guest that comes out. Thank you. You know, hold on. I got this is what I got everybody. Well, you're likable. So that's great. That's good. Well, it's just like my whole boss. He's like, you don't have that good skills. Right. But people seem to like you. Yeah. So yeah, I'm going to miss you. Yeah. So it wasn't a, and I've bounced around. So I've had three careers pretty much. So take me. We'll talk more about the family part toward the end when we close with our faith family politics. But tell me about the love story. Like did you, you were talking about meeting my future life partner being like, I'm advertising. Did you meet what your wife's name? Aaron. And did you meet her back in those days? No, I met her at Lucky Joe's. Oh, sweet. Yeah. Yeah. We were both in grad school. And if you want to know those, if you want to know the story, yes. That's what people are signing up from this. All right. Well, she, she came up to me at the bar of Lucky Joe's and it was like, hey, do you want to see a shoe time trick? And I was like, what? I mean, I think there were some beverages involved. Of sure. And I mean, she could, she tied my shoe in like a half a second. Wow. And then I asked her. So this was my question. This goes back to everything, Kurt. I asked her, you know, so what are you all about? And she said, like, she goes exploring the unknown. She was a, she did caving outdoor stuff. Hey, what a bit cooler. She said, Ty, she was as fast as I was. Yeah, right. Yeah, so the caving thing is pretty cool too. She, you know, she's just really adventurous and interesting and different, obviously, then everybody I'd ever met. Yeah. Then I was friends with her for nine months and she wasn't just into the cave thing because everybody thought it was cool. No. No, she like lead caving trips in her undergrad. It's cool. She's to give you some perspective, she's like the happiest accountant you'll ever meet. She's an accountant. And she loves working. She loves her work. Especially when things balance out. She loves it. She's so good at it. She doesn't even know what she's doing when she's doing it. Yeah. She gets promoted and things like that. Yeah. She doesn't know. She's just really happy and she really loves numbers and that helps me a lot. I've never heard that pick up line before. You have to learn the shoot time first. I don't need to pick anything up. I'm going to show her this segment. So what brought you to CSU in Fort Collins then? I had to get out of DC. Well, and then what? I researched a bunch of things. CSU had really great grad programs, adult education and got a master's here. And it was in Fort Collins. And to be honest with you, I had to get out of these coasts. Yeah. I've met actually DC is an increasingly popular place for people to come from to here. Yeah. It used to be nobody from the New York City, especially whatever come here. And it's still pretty rare. But upstate New Yorkers, Jerseyites, now DC people, they're like. It's quite the lonely place. What is? DC. Really? I found it so. Yeah. Everything's about what you do. I mean, so you're on this status hunt all the time. It's like you meet someone and it's like, what do you do? And then if it leads to a networking opportunity, you have worth. Right. If there work is only a seven, but they're a nine in high. Right. Because your work is an eight and you're eight, too. Oh, definitely. Right. And then I work on Capitol Hill. I'm an eight. You know, it's just like you get. Right. Yeah. That automatically a two point bump. Yeah. If you're in the hot top tax bracket. Right. Six turns to an eight. Forgotten. That got exhausting. I mean, like that happy hour culture. But it's not like that. It's not like authentic networking. It was like high pressures. Or how can I use you to help me in the future? Yeah. Yeah. When I moved to Fort Collins, I moved here in 99. And like almost from the start, I was like, I'm home. And instead the culture here is like, oh, it's nice to meet you. Welcome to Fort Collins. How can I help you achieve your dreams? I know. I know. I know. It took a little bit of adjustment, though, because what I do appreciate on the East Coast is the directness of everything. Right. It's much quicker. And even now, like I honestly, and I think you and I've talked about this before, I do a lot of business like nationally. Right. And just in the last few years, have I come back more locally? Which is great. But I find it sometimes much easier to do business on the coasts. Yeah. Things are faster. People are more direct. The know is a know. The yes is a yes. Right. Oh, God. The slow maybe is the main of my existence. That's it. That's the Colorado slow maybe. There's nothing wrong with it, though, because everybody listening is like going to be offended. Well, no, but really get over it. Like, give me a quick now. I know. Or just say, like, not right now. Yeah. We call me back in six months. Maybe we'll be in a different place. Yeah. Or I don't like your talk. I mean, cool. Whatever. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. But getting, like, you know, you just hard to get feedback here. Yeah. For sure. I love you. Nobody wants to say anything. I have one member that gives every speaker a five out of five review. No matter how shitty they are. Yeah. Like, they just want to help them feel better about themselves, I guess, or whatever. I won't call her out. But you know who you are. But yeah, I know there is that actually that same boss, Tom Pringer. He's that was one of the first banking principles I learned was a quick no was better than a slow maybe. Yeah. Is there the wrong with it? I mean, no, then I can move on. You know, and it's just natural. Like, if you're going to say no, tell me you're going to say no, could you imagine if you're a family member was like, hey, do you want hot dogs for dinner? And you're like, well, let me, I'll get back to you. I'll get back to you in five minutes. It's actually a pet peeve of mine with I do most of the cooking at our home and I'll ask Jill, you know, do you want salmon or chicken? I don't know. Sounds the same. Yeah, whatever. Just whatever. What's what is one percent more? Because I don't care really. I don't. I just want to make whatever you would like. But it's so funny. Yeah. Because that's what it is. You know, it's okay. I love you still there. Yeah. So, um, like, what have you learned, especially like, especially like since you turned it into a business, you've gotten your head under the hood of all these companies now and these firms and like, is there some industries that are doing it way better than others? It's there's like character types that are really making it easier for their employers, to find this meaning, like, like, talk to me about some of the big trends or the meta stuff that you, that you've seen. Yeah. That's fun. Because it's all I think about. I mean, we live in a stimulation economy when it comes to management coaching and leadership coaching work. Right. So, leadership development. Everybody loves a good stimulating workshop. Like, everybody loves a TED talk. We're living this TED talk culture, right? It's the stimulation economy. Sure. And the people who don't do it well are the ones who love stimulation after stimulation after stimulation. They almost feel like they're doing something by thinking about doing it. Those are the, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Those are the business leaders who go from one bestselling book to the next bestselling book. Right. Or the next one. Yeah. This is going to be a new great thing. I know there's great operating systems, but the next operating system, the next management fad to the next management fad, right? That usually doesn't work well because employees are confused. Totally. Who are we? What are we doing? Who, what book did Bob read this month, you know, and that doesn't work. When people latch on to actually working on habits and practices and changing the very small behaviors and build in some peer accountability and management teams and leadership teams start having these conversations with one another and start holding each other accountable for something other than meeting the numbers for being a good human being. That's where the magic happens. Yeah. So you move from stimulation to transformation when you create new beliefs, those new beliefs become new values, those new new values become new behaviors and those behaviors become habits. And so I, I see myself as the business in the business of moving people to that transformation part by helping to solidify habits and that's where that peer coaching work has become really rewarding. I'm thinking about my team in that, you know, we're much more remote than we would have been a year ago and largely they, you know, Devin Roy worked her tails off doing their things and we do a Monday check in and we always have a kudos board and we can all put kudos on the board and stuff. It's like we're all in our silos a lot of times and so you got to really try to find those kudos because it's like otherwise you're self reporting your kudos and it's like, well, I made the sales call or I did this and that. Get any solutions for us there and siloing how often do you all work on yourselves together? On some months we have kind of a team time that we don't work hard enough at keeping it consistent. The best team builder to break out of silos is when you work on bettering yourself with each other. So I advocate for the head above most trainings is like if a, if you can talk about how you want to become better and then regularly talk about what you've been doing to become better, what shortfalls you've had and share them and get help from people who are doing it. Well, that's like the ultimately leadership team or management team or smaller company. That's the ultimate team builder, right? Because oftentimes we deploy things and then it's, okay, we're going to all go work on that. We're going to soar with our strengths together, whatever it fad it is. And not that that's a fad there's some research behind strengths, but it becomes a fad when you don't do anything with it. And instead of that, just being like, you know, what's a, what's a strength that I'm not using everybody that I could use more and over the next month, I'm going to try to use it more. And then when I come back in the next month, we're going to talk about me and whether I did that. Yeah. Yeah. From growth standpoint. I like that. I like to reflect that, you know, with local, it's perspective, accountability and encouragement is the kind of the pillars of it. And accountability is one of the big things for me because I'm, and this is not like excuse making, but I don't really care that much about myself sometimes. I don't really care to be accountable to myself, but if I make promises to other people that I'm going to do it, then I do it because I don't want to, you know, just like you and that advertising thing, you know, I can sort about perceptions more than I'm concerned about myself sometimes. Yeah. I mean, so that's, I think that that's one of the big trends of successful companies that do that together. I would say the other thing is they don't, they don't leave things like culture up to intuition. And they robustly plan it as robustly as they plan their financial strategy. And what I mean by that is that we're very good in business about understanding what to do together, we're not so good at understanding how to be with one another, and those little norms and guidelines of who are we with one another are I find anecdotally are so important to be able to do the things we want to do without leaving a mess because if you focus on ways of doing, right without ways of being, you leave a mess in any relationship. So I think that when teams can create space for learning ways of being with one another and balance that out with ways of doing and have some real like, we're agreeing to this. Like you and I like, we'll go into an employment contract with all of these legal ease, but can we go into a way of being contract, culture contract with each other? I was just with somebody who's virtually a polar opposite of their business partner, like on paper, but as he said, but we share the same heart kind of. And so we really compliment each other really well, but it only works really well because they're their ways of being with each other aren't like forced. You know, if I tell you, if I make you do things the way I think they should be done, that's different than allowing you to do things the way that you can best succeed at doing them or whatever, right? And I mean, like, it's simple things like, hey, this is how we're going to make decisions here. We're going to involve one another. Or, you know, this is what autonomy looks like here, like as long as we stay within our values, you know, you have freedom to make decisions, those types of things. And you'd be surprised to just, if I go, if I'm working with a leadership team, one of my favorite exercises is I just have them draw how they make a decision, draw how do you make a decision? And you will be shocked is if you're working on that board of seven people, you'll get, it worked, they've worked with each other for a long time. You'll get seven different ones every time. I don't even know how to draw making it. Like, yeah, like just write out like how you go about making the decision. You know, one of my favorite questions is, what do you do when you do what you do? Like, what do you do when you do what you do well? What do you do when you do what you do not well? Like when you're, if you had a great meeting, what did you do when you had a great meeting? Yeah. If you made a great decision as a business, what exactly did you do to make a good decision? The clues to your optimal culture are usually there when you ask those types of questions. But we oftentimes don't create the space to uncover and codify those things. I was just reflecting that like the outcomes, the results part is what we saw. Often we measure, you know, and I, like for me, well, what do I do when I had a great meeting? Well, I got to say, oh, baby, you know, they were this other person was receptive to my engagement. But I'm not barely ever focused on what did I do when I had that good meeting. Everybody has so much to teach. Even if it makes that question, though, like everybody has so much to teach. Because if you just ask that question, like, what did I do when I did what I did well? That's your, you have something to teach. And if you're a leader of a business and you're looking for like ways of how to teach your people, like, right, how to do business. Well, that's a good question to ask. Like, because I think some founders and things they chalk it up to, well, it just happened. Just do it like I do it or it just happened, right? Or yeah, it's like based on intuition. But things like culture, I think, I think are too important to be left up to intuition. I get a lot of small businesses who say, like, we just don't have time for culture. We don't like to build it. And, you know, my perspective is is that eventually you'll learn that you need done. So who does, who builds culture well? Like, what does that look like? Is that values exercises? Is that kumbaya songs? Like, what is the, like, because there's a million ways it's going to cat, right? But only three really effective ways. Yeah, no, those things are not culture. Those are symbols of culture, right? Culture is, there's three levels of culture really. It's the things you can see. Those are the things around us. Like, things you can see on the wall, like I see your logo, the things you talk about, the words you say, the values on the wall. But then there's your enacted values, so the values that you put into action. But then on the, on the bottom is the most powerful, which is beliefs. What do we, what do you assume to be true? And you're assumed truths are your culture. So like, for example, you, you, one of your assumed truths is that, like, peer accountability is a good way to manage businesses, right? Sure. Like my, let me, I'll give you another example of a belief that doesn't have to do with business. But I came down into this room. I saw these chairs and I sat down into the chair. I didn't, I didn't think to myself, are chairs for sitting in? I believed that this structure was for sitting in. Yeah. I have beliefs in your organization, as embedded as that, as automatic. I believe that this is how we communicate with one another. I believe that this is what success is. I believe that this is what productivity is. Those beliefs manifest in rituals and behaviors. And that becomes your culture. The best way to change a culture is to change beliefs. I mean, to change beliefs by first, you have to name them, yeah, cover them. What do, like, if people aren't, for example, I had a sales person come to me and be like, Zach, my people aren't collaborating, right? And so I said, show me your reward structure. Okay. They show me the reward structure. And what do you think happened? Well, all I saw was self-serving rewards. Right. So they get rewards on individual commission. Right. So this is a sales team. Zach, they're not collaborating. They're rewarded for individual commissions. And I said, well, why would they ever collaborate, right? What you reward is what you become, right? So the belief was that even if my supervisor tells me that I should collaborate, we bring in a trainer to do collaboration. We do a collaboration self-assessment and get our score. Even if we do that, if I believe that my worth is going to be measured by my self-achievement, that's a belief. Your culture will never change until you change that belief. Yeah. And you change that blue through what? Changing the reward. Sure. Can't change it with that reward system. Right. Right. Do I lost my 20th thought? I feel like we were talking about culture. We were talking about how to do it right. What it is, how to do it right. Yeah. Just finding some time, like, what do we, what is, what do we believe about productivity? How should communication be here? How do we make decisions here? So you got to do that inquiry first, unpack things, make a mess of things, and then put it back together in a system. And then filter out the things you don't want to be. When you uncover beliefs, you're going to uncover some unfortunate beliefs, probably. And you also had a creative vision for who you want to be, I mean, and who you should be, based on what you found about yourself and the beliefs that it, in the organization. And then if you can build a culture that builds rituals and behaviors around those beliefs, how you want to communicate, how you want to make decisions, how you want to treat each other. Yeah. It sounds like exercise. It's going to take months and months and sometimes years. Yeah. This is what I tell people all the time. Can't you just fix that? No boot camp. No purpose boot camp. No. No. Not even for yourself. And the reason why I start with purpose is people are like, why are you so obsessed with purpose? Well, I'm obsessed with purpose because nothing will matter in the long term if it doesn't matter to somebody. Yeah. Somebody's going to get it. You cannot push somebody. You can only push somebody so long with a paycheck. Yeah. True. Tom Brady isn't the goat because he's got paid the most money. No. You know. I know. He's the goat because he works on fundamentals. Yeah. That's true. Every day he's working on footwork. So do you have anything, any like fresh research in the work or another book or anything like that that we can talk about? Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on a research study on how people come to matter in work and feel like they matter. So it's more about how they come to feel it, not how others can help them. Well, yeah. I mean, that it's the, and what's going on in the environment? Yeah. What's going on in their environment when people feel like they're noticed and affirmed and needed. And I'm working on a book about how to create matter as a leader, how to create moments of matter for other people. And to be honest, like for me, based on, you know, and I know we're going to get into politics later. But based on the last few years, I think most of our issues are attentional issues. It's people not being paid attention to. And I really do. And I think it, I think there's groups of people, everybody's fighting for significance. Yeah. Well, I just was reading about Mark Cuban and the first thing about that thing, right? Right. Right. And, and whatever your opinion on that is, at least you did it in some extent to recognize that not everybody sees that, that is a positive emblem for whatever. Sure. Right. I mean, but it's that, but I think it's really, you got a, you got a nation of individuals fighting for significance. Right. Totally. Well, in part of that, you know, a post-God world, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Trying to find your certificates and a thing. Yeah. Or in whatever. Right. Right. You know, the, the used to be like, how to be the best human? Be as much like Christ as you can be. Right. And love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. And do those things really well. And that's Gold Star. Yeah. But, you know, way more than half of people in our country probably don't really accept that perspective. And so now what? Yeah. But if you look at what, like despair is, you know, you hear a lot about deaths of despair in our country. I mean, despair is suffering minus meaning. Right. Right. Right. So, yeah. I mean, you look at every, after every major economic disruption, existential crises on a large scale has followed. Second industrial revolution, people lost their ability to work. Suicides went way up. MLA Durkheim's sociologist found that one of the biggest reasons was a lack of the ability to contribute to feel worth. Great depression. You see sense of identity beyond just the paycheck. People's identity of being, of and in something bigger than themselves. Right. Great recession, same thing. And now you have what just happened, what's just what's happening. Right. And you add on job, health, insecurity. Right. I mean, so like for people this, I think mattering and meaningfulness, especially in work where people, a lot of people have to go to work to live. Right. And sometimes because they have to be there, that's the place where they can experience dignity. Sometimes the only place in their life where they can experience dignity in the society. And so I think work is going to play much bigger role in filling that attention deficit that I think we're seeing. So is that, it seems to me that that's kind of the cultural drag and that we need to slay, right, is this kind of the very, you know, for corporations and business, you know, the start of the problem to an extent is you have no need to have a conscience. Your role is to maximize profits and that message to corporate America and that cultural kind of element kind of wrecked what had been a really pretty good machine that treated workers well because it was the right thing to do and stuff like that. That same kind of culture brought people to be like, you know, okay, well job security isn't what it used to be, pensions aren't what it used to be. I'm freelance in this, I'm doing that. Nobody really cares about me, my, all my work, you know, yes. And also, but so what I care about is is, you know, sand volleyball that I play in the weekends. Or what I care about is golf. We start caring about things that don't last. Right. That isn't really what I care about anyway, right? Like who wouldn't rather have. Wow. Yeah. So what are we, isn't that the dragon that we really need to attack? Yeah, but so, so I think about it from a more simplistic perspective. And I will say I'm not an economist and I don't pretend to be, so I'm not going to speak on that. But what I will speak on is that where are the places where human beings develop? They develop in school. They hopefully develop at home and they develop at work. Sure. And so one of those three areas, we have to, if you're not in any of those three places, then you're not really going to develop like you should somewhat. I mean, you're being like, yeah, like we have to figure out, we have to figure that out. Yeah. Where are those touch points for people that can fill that? Wow. Mattering. Well, and I'm just thinking about so many people that are at risk of being left behind in the economy ahead. The Ozzat Lawn Center is right here next door. And I try to walk around when days are nice and make phone calls and stuff. And there's kids that play basketball over there all the time that are 12-ish. And I see, you know, there's one kid in particular, like I don't know if he's really been back to school much since April. I know. You know, and he's like, once it went virtual, I just really didn't. Yeah. We have one computer at my house. I got four siblings and, you know, this and that. And so we talked about school. We talked about work. We talked about at home. Well, he's, if he's at home, he's not developing a lot there right now because both of his parents are almost certainly working because they have to to stay in the household at their pay scale and stuff. He's not at school. And he's not going to get a job if you don't get some school in him. And so we got like all these slips through the crack opportunities. Anyway, not to make you all sad and stuff. Well, it is sad. But then you get down to it. So, so how do we change that? Well, I think you do have to start an individual level. Yeah. Like, to be honest, I mean, I know I have to sell my idealistic, but I think of you and I, if I think if everybody committed to noticing people, yeah, to showing people attention. I mean, to like learning about them, to affirming them, to showing them they're needed. Every individual did that. Systems would evolve. Do you know Suzanne Miller? No. Oh, you should. She's got a, I don't know what a thing. Do a Liz thing. And her daughter sadly passed from cancer at a pre 30, 28 years older or 26 or something. Yeah. But after that, Suzanne got like a thousand letters from people who Liz had a nice thing for and impacted in a possible way. Yeah. So she's got this organization, this cause, like just dude, nice things for people. Damn it. But what is, what's happened, Kurt? I mean, what's happened is it was so self-obsessed. Right. Yeah, the glory of the self has, you know, kind of taken. And I don't want to talk about politics, but I don't think that this, this whole movement of individual freedom has helped. No, no, I don't think so. Like that, that we value. I am an island of independence. We value our individual freedom over the good of each other. Right. Very problematic ideology. Well, and then you've got, like we could jump into, you want to jump into politics? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm not, because there's so many interesting plays in that too, because you've got the, the freedom of ourselves and, you know, we can talk masks, we can talk shut downs, sure, all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, I mean, each individual, I think, each individual, I think, can make, make their own decisions about their life, right? I mean, I think that's basic autonomy, right? I agree with that. Where I think when we make those decisions based on just preserving our self and our life without regard for the whole, I think we start leaving a bit of a mess. Right. And the line is very blurred there. So when you get into things like, you know, to be honest with you, if you want to talk about masks and COVID and all that stuff, whatever. I mean, I'm sort of, I'm a sucker for the expert, I'll be honest with you. Right. You know, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not an economist, I'm not going to talk about either of those things, right? Right. But I will look at the research and I'll say, okay, it's probably better for myself and my family to wear a mask, I'll ask all sacrifice to my own comfort and looks. For sure. Actually, we look better with a mask. Thanks. That's my standpoint, but I know other people have different philosophies, but mine is more of a utilitarianistic philosophy of, you know, I'll do if something, if I could prevent one person's relative from potentially getting sick, then I'll do it. Sure. Sure. But if someone has a value of not wearing a mask and having the freedom to not wear a mask is more important than that, I'm not going to, well, I'm not going to like yell at them or scream at them. I would probably just want, want to know more about how they develop that perspective. So let's talk, let's shift, because I was thinking about the freedom thing now, like start to shut down. Yeah. This is tough. Right. Like, because you can prevent transmission, right, maybe from shutting these restaurants down and stuff, but isn't it? I know. And for me, when I talk about individual, like, that our own obsession with individual freedom, I think it becomes dangerous when it overrides our concern for the whole. Yeah. You know, so when I think about, when I think about the shutdowns and stuff, like, I got to be honest, I mean, how do you want me to proceed here? I just like to let real people share their real thoughts and flesh it out because I was just reflecting for myself that, frankly, what you were criticizing that, that, uh, liberty of the, of the individual over the sanctity, I probably drift that way a little bit. Like, I don't know how many people I'd rather have die than have so many businesses go out of business, not from their own fault, but it's, there's a number there. Right. Right. You know, I don't want businesses to go. No, you know what? Like, you know what I mean? We, so we have some universal truth. Sure. Um, but are, so can we get into faith a little bit because it ties? Of course. Yeah. Are you a Christian? I am. So I think it's mutually incompatible to be libertarian and be Christian. That's why I'm a weirdo. Yeah. Like, because it's a, it's an individual liberty is at odds with the gospel. Oh, so, I mean, if you were on to really get into the, well, you know, you, well, you want to, like individual, the concern for the self, right, is at odds with fair, Christ. Fair. I mean, I mean, not even at odds. It's oil and water. Well, you, it's at odds with the gospel, you know, you should try to fold yourself into what the will of Christ would be, perhaps, but also individual liberty overcame slavery and from a perspective of Christian leaders, sure, yeah, like global will you're forced to ask? Yeah, absolutely. Right. But it was William Wilberforce concerned for others freedom, not his own, that abolished slavery. Sure. Sure. So it was actually a total, actually, the abolishment of slavery was a total disregard for the self in favor of helping a subjugated group of people. Tell me more. Like, it was not a good political move for Abraham Lincoln to do that. Should sign the proclamation, right, that, I mean, well, if you get into the kind of his platform and stuff. Right. I mean, but he was, if you want a great book to read is Nancy Cohen's Forged in Crisis, if you read it, it's covers like Frederick Delgless, Abraham Lincoln, how they made decisions under pressure. Yeah, I'd like to read that. And again, I'm not a historian. But when you look at some of these Christian leaders who did these amazing things, whether it's Dietrich Bonhoeffer, sure, read that book that was really concerned about individual liberty. He actually went and re-imprisoned himself in a concentration camp and was killed by a firing squad because he believed that Jesus would lay down his life for other people. And he was following Jesus. But that's he was for a group for Jewish liberty to do that though, but for, for a Jewish population that was at odds with this whole belief system in which he was doing it for. So I've started. I mean, that's Christ. Agreed. Agreed. So put on a mask, you know? Fair. Right. I dig it. Yeah. Um, the, uh, the question I was going to ask you is about Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. Uh, often recognizes our greatest president. I've started wondering, like, should he have, like, done the, the battle, the war, you know, should, was it the right thing to do philosophically, uh, Christ, as a Christian thing or not Christian thing? Was he right to, to crush the South, basically, to make them come a crown to that, that way of thinking? I don't know. Have you ever, I, I struggle with this because I struggle with pacifism, right? And, oh, and they raped and pillaged, like, uh, stuff like that, like, like, pacifism and, and then, and I don't think, um, I don't think I'm well versed theologically enough to get into, like, pacifism and Christianity, to be honest with you, I got to explore that myself. Fair. So you should have someone on who can, right? It would be good. Yeah. And I'll be there. I'll be here. Nobody that's smart. I mean, I have to, I had to say it because, I mean, it doesn't, it goes back to, and, and if you're listening to what the heck is this guy talking about, it, it does go back to something basic, a basic truth. I think we can all recognize is that we have to be better for one another, not just to one another, but for, we have to be, you're for one another. And whatever it takes to get out of our self-absorption, yeah, um, I'm all for it. I said a while back, I guess, probably back during the race riots and stuff that a philosophical of kind of like everybody kind of has to be responsible to and for themselves first, and then to and for each other. You know what it is, Curtin, this is helping me. Yeah. You have the individual liberty to choose how you live your life. Yeah. I agree with that. I'm advocating for you to choose it, so live your life in a way that serves other people. That's my philosophical. You don't think I do? No, not you. Like when we think of like individual liberty stuff. Yeah, two and four others. That's more of my philosophy, like I, just like I think, again, just like I think exercise is good for you. You can not choose not to do it, but I'm still going to tell you every day that it's good for you. It remains good for you. Yes. And I actually, and I do want you to change your behavior, even though you have the liberty not to, to, so I'm not going to, so I think some people like, because I'm like, you know, do it's good for most people. They think that I'm politically opposite of them if they're like a libertarian, right? But it's not the case. What I'm saying is that I have a strong opinion that you should use your personal liberty in this way. Right. Yeah. Do that help me clarify? No, I enjoy that. Because I kind of, in the middle of a line, I mean, I flow back and forth between issues all the time. Right. I couldn't, like articulate a particular party or not. Well, I may, I'm a low C on the disk profile. I don't know what I am. Which basically means, can I do it on my phone? You should. Yeah. In five minutes. Basically means, like, you know, I'll do the reasonable thing unless you tell me I must do it, then screw up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's not excuse. I, I am a diligent mask wearer, whenever appropriate or, you know, whatever. So I just, for the record, do you want to share more about politics before we move on to faith? No, I think that was good. I mean, I think that's good. A little resolution there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about your faith journey. Did you, like, grow up a Christian? Yeah. I was a Methodist. Okay. I grew up Methodist. I kind of just going to church. Yeah. I fell out of it and undergrad. Yeah. Most people, right? It's hard to chase girls properly if you're also trying to be a good Methodist boy. And then, in grad school here, I met my wife and she had gone to a Presbyterian church here. Okay. And I really got along with the pastor really well. Yeah. And I really resonated again with the gospel-centered messaging, not the commentary. Yeah. You know, and, I mean, Presbyterians are notoriously boring. But I actually like that because you don't get into, right? So much of the extraneous stuff. True. You know, and you just focus on like how to be. Right. That's human. You know what I'm saying? I actually have a friend who's a Presbyterian and she's married to a Seventh-day Adventist. Okay. And they're like, you know, they struggle sometimes with that perspective change. So do you feel like you got saved in grad school? Like you came to an agreement. Well, I feel like I'm in that process. Still. Oh. Yeah. I am, you know, because I actually, like, I actually find a lot of, a lot of really value about how to be in this world from a lot of Eastern religions too. Like, you'd be surprised to know that I've taught classes up at the Shambhala Mountain Center. I would be surprised to know. As a Christian. Yeah. And I've, I really, one of my favorite courses in, one of my favorite courses in undergrad was World Religions. I still have the book. Yeah. Me too. And I really, and I loved, I loved seeing these like in terms of like morality and acting moral in the world. I loved seeing those. The residents point. Yeah. Those like, almost like there's like divine truths. Sure. The golden rule is pretty much everybody's book. Well, like that just like that comes through everything, right? And, and so meeting people in that way has been like fascinating for me. And so, I mean, that's a big part of my life too is being with people who believe have a different described religious belief. Right. Right. Organized religion. I was, I'm actually listening to a book called Sapiens right now. Oh, yeah. You all are are you? Yes. Yes. I use it to fall asleep with sometimes because he drones on and then I come back to wherever. But, but he's a brilliant dude though. Oh, totally. But his voice is pretty monotonous. Yeah. At any rate, he's talking about all of, he was kind of big bucketing all the various religion and stuff. And he's talking about Buddhism and some of the naturalistic religions. And he's like, you know, they kind of say, well, no matter if a person's poor or wealthy or got a lot of wives or no wives, you know, they always have this like craving for something different than where they are right now. Like they're never quite settled or they're never whatever satisfied. And that's kind of what the Buddhist try to work on is just being in the moment and satisfied in the moment, whether you're suffering or not or whatever. Or just observant of the moment. Yeah. I've recognized the moment. Like people try to separate like mindfulness practices from Christianity. And I'm like, Christians would be better Christians if they were mindful. Right. Totally. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, because in the old days, they just, you know, I don't, I don't rise in meditation. I will say this. I am definitely more of a progressive Christian. I don't really align with some of the legalistic stuff like no mindfulness or any trace of Buddhism or anything that's like that. No, I mean, I think if it helps you be better, better Christians than, I mean. Well, I think about Martin Luther. You know, I've, I've got so much to do. I, I must start praying for six hours a day instead of just four. Right. Right. I've told us to accomplish. I need to, you know, meditate for six hours a day instead. Right. That, you know, like everything's, everything's put on these poles now. Right. Like it's either this or that or you believe this or that. Right. And I think we miss out on sort of the richness of being human. When we just, when we discount everything else, besides what we believe in. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thought. And that's one of the, like as a, as a libertarian leading kind of a Christian guy, which you say is a misnomer, but I can, we'll, we'll play that out some other time. But, but it's like, I do some plans from these other, you can be whatever you want to be. For me, based on my limited understanding of the gospel of Christ, it would take a big argument, a good argument for me to, hmm, to be convinced that individual liberty and a concern for individual liberties compatible. Well, but that's maybe a big L libertarian versus a small LL. Possibly. Possibly. I think humans would be happier with a smaller government mechanism because nobody can really be trusted, not to be corrupted. Sure. I agree. And so therefore, yeah. So that's kind of that. But so maybe it is. Yeah. Maybe my, um, maybe my perceptions of libertarians have only come from social media. Oh, probably. Yeah. I know Republicans have never crossed both hate libertarians more than they hate the opposite of that. I think libertarians are like the, the kings of memes right now. I voted for Kanye West, though. Well, four and 51 people in Larger County did. Okay. You're one of them. Yeah. You were four 51. The libertarian candidate just didn't expire me this year. Yeah. So, you know, they decided to throw my vote away. That's a good point. I mean, that's a good check. I'm not saying, I mean, I don't, I don't know enough about libertarianism. So, talk about it. So still being saved. And it's a journey, not a switch from your perspective and just trying to be a better human. I mean, sometimes I wake up and I'm like, oh my god. Like, what am I doing? Right. Like, I, I, I believe these things, but I think about the thing that I'm not supposed to think about. Right. Like, well, there's this guy named Paul that wrote a whole bunch of books. I know. And he's like, the things I want to do, I do not do. And the things I don't want to do, I do. And like, I'm a mess. That's why to like, so I think one of the things all religions have in common. All is relinquishment of self. Interesting. Like relinquish of what we have, what we can control of earthly things. Yeah. Relinquishment is something that I find in comments, one of those threats. Yeah, for sure. And it's really hard to relinquish. And I think that as a Christian, until you relinquish, you are still in the process of being saved. It's hard to be saved by something you don't trust. Yeah. Can you imagine if someone threw a, you're in the water drowning and someone threw something on them. I believe in that little life raft thing, but I'm not climbing on it. Well, you won't get me on that thing. Are you sure that rope is strong enough? I think I'm still in the water. Yeah. Pontificating about the life raft, even though I believe in the life raft. Huh. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. I think it's a, it's a scary place to be. It is a scary, well, kind of. Well, because you're never quite far enough, you're like that Buddhist. You need to be satisfied that the love that you have and the belief that you do have in Christ is enough. You don't have to swim to the life raft. Relinquish, right? Doesn't say that, just says believe. Well, when you believe something, you're relinquishing other things. Fair. Yeah. You like, I can't believe that this is a chair and the floor at the same time. Right. Fair enough. You'd be fun to have a longer, just straight, faith politics. Yeah. I know. No, I'm good. Oh, yeah, you got to get out of here in like 10 minutes, don't you? Yeah. So let's talk about your family then. So Aaron, right? Yeah. Yeah. How many, how many years married now? Ten. Nice. Yeah. And you got a two-year-old and a six. Three-year-old and a six-year-old. Three-year-old and a six-year-old. Uh-huh. I like to have our guests give one word descriptions of their littles. Oh my gosh. One word. One word? Just one. Taping my six-year-old, I would. Sweet. He's just a sweet kid. Yeah. That's great. Jackson. Bowser. Bowser. For the Mario Bros. Oh boy. He is crazy. I mean, he's just like, I mean, that's why they're two opposite. It's like I got the sweet like sensitive kid six. And my three-year-old is like. Test media devil. Yeah. And it's awesome. That's awesome. Everybody loves the boss, right? Right. Right. What would Aaron say was the reason she came over to help you tie your shoes? Um. She'd been drinking too much. My hair definitely. Oh right. Hmm. I don't know. We'd have to ask her. I think, uh, what's funny is, I did, I had relinquished dating people. At that point, I was like, I was gonna, the results just be single. Forever and ever. And not like that. It was funny. I think that relinquishment made me open to the right thing. Oh yeah. It was really fascinating. So I think that that just openness to, you know, I didn't, we didn't get into a relationship right away. We were friends. Yeah. Just because I wasn't looking for that, created that. I like to say, you know, whether you're a Christian or a Buddhist or whatever, that, you know, when you're, when you're grasping and trying to make things happen, a lot of times, it just doesn't really happen. Yeah. Yeah. And when you get into the flow of where God wants you or where the universe is. Relinquishment. I'm telling you. This is, yeah. I think that's a. This is interesting. We got to talk more about that sometime. Yeah. Well, we got a couple more minutes. Do you want to, like, I mean, I just think that's a big. It is a common, common time. I even think like even in, in business and things like that, like that relinquishment idea of. To do more things, you do have to stop doing something. Right. And also, when you do everything that you can do, at some point, you have to try to relinquish your tight control. Right. Right. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. That's all I have to say. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit more about family stuff. Got two older siblings. Your mom, dad, are they still all with, with us? They are. Yeah. They do well. They do. I have a good relationship with my parents. I'm lucky. I talk to them regularly. My mom regularly. I have a 98-year-old grandfather. Awesome. You want to give him a shout out? Pop. Hey, Pop. Hey, Pop. He's awesome. I think he's one of the things, so he always sent me a card every year. And he always sends me a card every year in the mail for my birthday. And since I was like five or six, he's been sending me a little $10 bill wrapped in tissue paper. Okay. And one I got two years ago has had a big impact on me. And he wrote in it. All he wrote was Zach. How do you improve the moment? And that's a cutting question. Right. Right. And so I'm really thinking about that. But he's like one of those really wise guys like that. Sounds like a beer commercial. I know. Right. Right at the moment. That's a good slogan. Someone's going to steal that now. But yeah, he was really big influence on me. We would go camping with him. And he actually just, he had a stroke a couple of months ago and lost all short-term memory. So my mom has to go down there every day and stay with five days a week and then switch with her sister. But so it's not kind of he's seeing him on that decline is really difficult. But what is, but a lot of the things that I did with him, I do with my kids now. Yeah. So camping, fishing, hiking, you know, all of that. You can tie to other people. Yeah. Which is amazing how many experiences you create for other people based on the experiences that were created for you. Yeah, totally. It's the threads, right? Yeah. And unfortunately, including when there's bad family members and bad experience. Yeah, of course, right? Like it's hard to break those patterns. Yeah. But sounds like yours was very positive. Yeah. How about you, bros? Good. My oldest brother's a banker. Oh. My middle brother's a veterinarian. What do you tell people? It's so hard. Hi. Hi, Zach. You did a really good job. Like I'm founder of ZM Consulting and I wrote this book. I mean, I think that's what I'm going to start using now. Yeah. It's hard. I tell people that I help people make work better for people. And the ways that I do that as I research leadership and work and apply those things. Yeah. Help people apply those things. Sometimes I use consulting, but you know, sometimes consulting gets a better app. Right. Because I like consulting is like I come in and I like talk to you. And I guess that's what I do. But I like that the practice oriented like application of the things is what I really care about. Right. So. Well, and you're like a curious guy and a researcher first and foremost. Yeah. So a lot of it is digging into the problem and then how do we fix it? It gets a lot easier after you've dug in a little bit. Yeah. So. That's me. Yeah. I like it. What do you do? Like for fun. I love road biking. Oh, really? Yeah. I do a lot of like a long distance cycling. Like Hunter Miler's and stuff like that. Yeah. A lot of it. Have you done the ride the Rockies before? No, I haven't. I do the Copper Triangle every year. Okay. So it goes from Copper Mountain over Vale and back. It was not going on last year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love cycling. And I mountain biking, you know, all of those stereotypical Colorado things. Sure. And to be honest, I just spent a ton of time with my kids. Sure. I mean, that's like the protected time. It's a good stuff. Yeah. That's the good stuff. And there's no set schedule with that. I mean, it's you can be painting one minute outside chasing some bug in the next minute. So you just got to leave yourself open to that. So we can put some links into the show notes. Why don't you just share people if they're like, oh my God, I got to hire this super consultant to bring meaning to my team. Yeah. You can go to Zachmercurio.com. Okay. Very original there. Yeah. And then, you know, I'm also into LinkedIn. I like LinkedIn. You are a LinkedIn pro, for sure. I love LinkedIn. I've met a lot of cool people on LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn and we'll connect. Zach, Mercurio. Mercurio. And I also have a, I send the newsletter out like a couple of, once every couple months. It's called the Spark. You can sign up for that. Anything that you have as far as like for somebody that wants to not have an enterprise but wants to have a practice, like we talked briefly on that shift, but let's have that piece of business advice for somebody building a practice. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a different mindset because you're not thinking about creating an entity that has value independent of you. So the, the mind shift is that you are the practice. And so you're earning money because you're you and being able to put you as the forefront of it. Like if you notice, I don't lead with the ZM consulting. Sure. It's me. Yeah. It's my practice. Just like you go to the doctors office. It's their practice. The name's on the wall. The name's on the website. And so if you're a solo printer and you're thinking about creating a practice, I mean, I think that's a big mindset shift and being okay with that. And if you're trading time for service, there's a lot of business people that will shame you for that. And so you got to look for, you have to look for people who know people who are running practices that trade a service that you have expertise with time. Right. The other thing I would say is I, you know, one of the things that I'm doing is I'm starting to license out my content. So like I'm training someone right now to deliver my content in Australia. Oh, cool. As a licensing agreement. So that's one way to, if you're thinking about scaling a practice. Yeah. So you don't always have to turn the rest to get the paychecks. Yeah. Right. So, but it's still my stuff. It's being practiced out there. You know, so I mean, that's just a couple things. No, I think that was super helpful because I was thinking to myself, you know, with local think tank, you know, for a long time, it was just Kurt's local think tank and now I've got a small team. But nobody's ever paid me to, yeah, you have a, right, yeah, I have a business. It was a business. You have a business. Yes. I have a business. It's just a different. I don't have a practice at all because there's a difference. It's like a, you know, doctor has a specialized set of skills and especially if you're ultra-specialized like I focus on culture and meaningfulness and mattering, right? It's pretty specialized actually in the consulting realm. So if you're specialized and you have a particular skill set that only you have to do it, it might be worth considering a practice model. Yeah, yeah. My skill set is put together people that will like, but you're someone who builds a business though. That's your skill set. That is not my skill set. Well, not yet. Not yet. You might still have another chapter. Not yet. Who knows? Do you have a title for the next book yet? No, not yet. All right. Well, Zach, you've been a great speaker and presenter for local think tank chapters and events. You've been an advocate and really a community-minded guy that's just, you know, pouring his heart and his work into making people matter more. Thanks, Kurt. To that, I did too. Took my hat to you. Yeah. Thanks for being... Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Locoh Experience Podcast. This is Kurt Baer, founder of The Locoh Think Tank and host of The Locoh Experience. I'm here with Rory Shar, local business developer and host of The Locoh Shorts episodes. We hope you heard some new ideas and business perspectives in this episode. Our mission and all that we do, including this podcast, is to share collaborative business ideas and solutions that uplift the business community. Subscribe and follow us for you listening to podcasts to get new episodes as they are released. Curious about Locoh? You can learn more about us at localthinktakes.com, where you'll find more information about our chapters, business resources, and events for business owners and teachers. If you're looking for perspective, accountability, and encouragement along your business journey, why not apply for a chapter near you today? Why not? Why not? Why not? We'll catch you next time on The In-depth Locoh Experience Podcast with me, Kurt. And with me, Rory, for Bite Size Business Lessons in The Locoh Shorts. Bye! Bye!