EXPERIENCE 159 | Be a Better Team by Friday with Justin Follin - CEO and Co-Founder of BLUECASE Strategic Partners in Austin, Texas

Justin Fallin came all the way from Austin, Texas to Fort Collins a few weeks ago, not to be on the show, but to visit his younger brother, Sean, my guest on episode 134, who introduced him to me as a potential guest. Both brothers are in the strategic planning industry, which I found fascinating. And Justin had a fresh book out in 2023 titled, as you might've guessed, Be a Better Team by Friday. The book brings together strategic planning and high performance coaching and psychology, and does it all in a 200 ish page format. While Sean has been in the strategy planning industry almost since he entered the workforce, Justin's route to the calling has had more twists and turns. He earned his B. A. in Philosophy from UNC Chapel Hill, and there witnessed high performance coaching in action for the first time, with Roy Williams quickly turning around the UNC men's basketball team in his first year on staff. Justin has pursued journeys in music and music production, Teaching children and directing theater for the Kibale School and high performance coaching, initially with musicians, poker players, and other misfits, as a way to pay the rent while also playing music. But as his reputation grew and referrals abounded, he found the complexities of business to be more intriguing and the budgets more robust, and he co founded Blue Case in 2016. I'm honored to have long form conversations with incredibly talented, interesting, and abundance minded individuals. And my conversation with Justin was no exception. So please join me in learning a spoonful of be a better team by Friday and much, much more with my guest and new friend, Justin Fallon. by the way, you got the Loco Journal, the uh, Super Spork, uh, complete with knife there. Nice. And, uh, and the hot sauce. So you're in good shape for your travels. Yeah. All right. Here we go. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guest today is Justin Fallon. And Justin is the brother of a recent guest, Sean Fallon. Uh, he's also the CEO and co founder of Blue Case Strategies, Strategic Partners, sorry. And then the author of a recent book, Be a better team by Friday. So let's start with the book and thanks for the copy. I'm glad Sean had an extra copy lying around. Yeah, absolutely. Glad, glad to be here. I appreciate the invite. Um, it's gotta be quite an interesting thing to, like, there can't be that many brothers that are both like high level strategic planners, right? Like unless your dad was, but your dad wasn't like a high level strategic planner. No, no. You know, uh, It is interesting. A lot of people get surprised to hear that we do very similar work. Our work is unique to ourselves. There's, there's a slight difference, but um, we actually started, uh, a consulting company together. Oh. Uh, when we were in our twenties. Right. The, the computer kind of, uh. Even before that. Oh, really? We were doing social media. Consulting and it was, uh, it was, uh, it was, uh, it was, uh, our first try I'll say that so we were working with some pretty, pretty, uh, you know, quirky clients and, uh, one of the clients I think sold breast oil. She was one of the, the early clients, uh, and we had, uh, Like to lube them up, make them softer? I think it was just, is it some sort of healthcare sort of thing? So, uh, you know, we were, we were just trying our chops out, but, uh, both of us have, have matured in our, uh, in our individual professions in a way that's been good. So, um, can we talk about the book first? Like, where's the, the seeds of that? Is it, you know, uh, the obligatory book so you can get more consulting gigs kind of thing? Or have you had this passion to write a book for a long time? And, and, what's it, what's it all about? Yeah, well, you know, we do a lot of work with, uh, companies that are scaling really fast, that are growing. And, um, starting to see the leadership challenges that come when you scale. And David, my business partner, and I had, uh, started the company. The company started in 2013. Our partnership's been about eight years ago. We started our partnership. So we've been working together for a long time doing this kind of work. And, uh, I have seen it directly change people's lives. It's not just making the companies better, but the people that we're coaching, the people that are learning these tools, they're Making their teams better. They're making their relationships with inside of work better. They're also going home and using some of the tools we teach with their families. Yeah, yeah. Family life gets better. So we can only work with so many companies where we're a boutique consultancy and our work is very powerful. So we wanted to figure out, well, how do we get. practices that have been most effective out into the world as widely as we can. This is a gift to the world as best you can. Basically. I mean, you still gotta buy the book, but it's 20 bucks or whatever. Right. And so. Not a, whatever price your, your firm charges for a long week. Exactly. Yeah. It's a much more accessible, uh, end point to, to get into. Maybe you should do a podcast someday too. Well, here, here we are. Um, so yeah, it was, you know, it's an attempt to really get that, You The, the how out there. How do we do it? Did you, um, like, did you have help, or was kind of the, the toolkit that you use for your strategic planning and, and, like, outlining the goals and things like that? Like, how do you distill all that, you know, eight, ten years of, you know? You know, the writing of the book itself was a, was a journey because a couple of years into working together, we started writing this book and we were working with ghost writers. And, you know, thinking, it's gonna be easy, we'll get our work out there and we'll, uh, you know, write a book, work, just tell people what we do and then they'll put it into a book. And what we found is the actual, you know, to really distill what we did was gonna take another five years. So, this process has been writing with ghostwriters, getting, rewriting, and then realizing, you know, we need to, to really approach it differently. And so, about three and a half years into the process, We scrapped the whole project. I went to Taos, New Mexico. I was taking, uh, a month. Mushrooms. Not mushrooms, but I was, I was sitting. Taking some time and sitting in silence. Sitting in silence and I was staring at Taos Mountain, which is this big mountain that overlooks the entire, uh, the entire city. And, um, I was meditating on really just trying to be open to what was next. And in my mind, as I was sitting there, I could see the outline for the book that we needed to write. And I went inside, I wrote the outline out. And then, for the next 30 days, I spent the time writing and I wrote the entire first draft in that 30 days. And that was how this version of the book came about. Now, I thought I was like the Ernest Hemingway of business book writers. I mean, I'm thinking it's perfect, I don't even need to rewrite it. Go back and I get some professional editors looking at it. And then I had to realize, like, this is a two or three more time rewriting process. It was a, it was a big one. I saw on your website there, the, the seven practices. And that's really that outline, probably, that you've defined. Absolutely. The original title was the seven practices of high performance teams. Do you know them all? Uh, let's see. I can, I can choose. You're going to quiz me. Get real with each other. Know the fundamental why. Give feedback like a coach. Adapt your work style, get focused and get her done. That's right. Yeah, I like it. I, I feel pretty okay about like our team's resonance with those principles. Yeah. General. What's been great is a lot of the clients that we've worked with have read it. And then, and people who I'm connected with who run businesses will read it and they'll say, I agree with everything that you're saying. Now, I wouldn't have thought of it that way, but it's, it's really spot on to what really makes a great team and you've distilled it so well, there's, it's so clear how you're talking about it. And that's my goal always is not to. I don't think we should ever have any of our work seem ethereal or theoretical, but that it is incredibly applicable, and it should seem like common sense when you're reading it, when you're applying it. My very first intern, uh, was Elie Naas, and Elie was a master's student in applied economics. And, like, it's kind of the same thing. Yep. Economics in theory, that's what I'm, I'm an economics theory guy. The actual application of it is a lot, Hmm. It's just where the rubber meets the road, right? And I think a lot of complaints about consultants, about outside help is, you know, they're really smart. Got all the ideas. Got a lot of ideas, but you know, roll your sleeves up and do some stuff. Exactly. So. That's all we do as a company, is just make really simple, easy applied tools to strategy, to leadership, to coaching. And we want to make sure that anything we bring in works, and it's not, you know, just an idea that we bring in the latest thinking. It's really based on a lot of research and practice. Tell me about Blue Case. Like, uh, where does the name come from to begin with? It's a, I don't know, some kind of a mysterious name, it seems like. Uh huh, uh huh. What's in the Blue Case? Well, uh Blue Case is called Blue Case because Jet Fuel comes in Blue Cases and we're like Jet Fuel for the companies that we work with. We work with companies that things just start moving faster, getting better, people get along better, and you get results beyond what your goals are. Why does Jet Fuel come in Blue Cases? So, okay, here's the deal. We Seems like it would come in big tanks. There is, when it comes out, what we've learned is, our story has It's not exactly, it's, there's a blue sticker that was being referred to. So when our marketing firm came up with this concept of blue case, there is a blue sticker on the case that we were looking at and it, they named a blue case since I've, I've talked to pilots who are saying, you know, it's not really a blue case, but we need the story to communicate. What we do. So it's stuck in that. It's been Blue Case ever since. Sorry I called you out right on that little fallacy in your marketing firm's thought process there. You got me on that one. So you're co founder of Blue Case. Is that with this David fellow that wrote the book with you then? Yep. David, David Greenspan is my co writer on the book and founder of the company. He has a PhD in the field of high performance psychology. And we work together to turn some of his consulting approaches with that High performance psychology into a firm called Blue Case. And we were scaling our approach and we developed the tools and intellectual property together and built a company. And what's the, the firm, is it the two of you plus other W2 or is it mostly kind of contractor bring in and bring out kind of thing is a boutique you mentioned, so I know it's not very big. It's both. So we have both a few employees as well as we work with W2 contractors who are 1099. Yeah. Been with us for a long time. Helps you deliver the goods as various, uh, and talk to me about like, what's a, what's a customer or client engagement look like? Is it, you know, go in and whip up the strategy and then see you later? Or is it a three year partnership kind of engagement and yeah, talk to me about that. Yeah. Well, first of all, the book is called Be a Better Team by Friday because it's really intended to communicate how fast this works. Yeah. Yeah. We typically, we'll start with a two day engagement with an executive team and in two days. You will have a different team and, and that's enough for a lot of people. I mean, you will have more trust, you'll have better alignment, you'll have some of those long standing conversations that nobody really wants to talk about. You'll have had those conversations. And by the end, people will say, this is probably the best meeting we've had in years. So we start out usually with that. Sometimes that'll look like we continue to work with the executive team. What started to happen was when we started the company, it was primarily strategic planning. And as these companies grew, They started to have next level leadership challenges because that core nucleus of the values and when you go from, you know, 50 to 200 to 2, 000 employees, they got all these first time leaders and stuff, and you don't want to hire too much from outside. You want to promote from within as much as you can, but they don't really know what they're doing. Yep. So we were taking the tools that we were using to help them grow in the executive team, and then we took them out into the company and started doing cross functional leadership development, which is unique in that we had every leader, every director, manager, leader in the company coming together in one room and working collaboratively to develop more of a cross functional creation. Right, to better understand what the other parts of the team are doing. Absolutely. Because it's, that was one of the things we stumbled on in my conversation with Sean, is that Like, there's kind of a dilemma in big, fast growing organizations, especially of where do you put your resources. And so all these different functional teams are kind of competing for the boss's attention and the, and the dollars that come with it and the investment and whatever. And so how do they understand, how do you really understand holistically who should get the gravy? Absolutely. And the attention. And where the, where the parts are broken. And it's all valid, you know, these competing commitments in each department, they wouldn't exist if the department wasn't necessary. So I think what we found that, that often surprises people or is interesting is if you think about an organization as a top down hierarchy, there's the CEO at the top and then the executive team that kind of branches out, you know, as you're, you're familiar with the organizational chart, but if you think about culture, And you think about leadership culture, a better way to think about it is the CEO sits at the nucleus of the culture, surrounded by the executive team on that next tier, moving out to the managers, directors, and out into the rest of the organization. And if you think about it like that, those cross functional challenges that see when you see teams that don't get along, departments that don't get along, I can almost assure you that when assessments that we do reveal marketing and engineering departments are not getting along, the executives. At the top, at the center of the organization are having conflict. And that's why we started the executive team. Because when you start with the nucleus, you start to dissolve the tensions that are, that are there. That starts to affect how they lead their teams and how they create cross functional collaboration. Do you see a lot of turnover with your engagements? I mean, sometimes you're like, uh, your director of marketing just needs to go. Period. Uh, well. You know, we're trying not to say that and lead them to that conclusion themselves. We just wrote an article for the Harvard Business Review that's, that's just in the works and um, talking about this exact subject because, you know, culture numbers, engagement numbers is such a big deal right now. Right. You know, we got hybrid work, people are saying it's because we're, we've gone hybrid, um, you know, people aren't in the office, so we're not getting the same productivity. Well, um, that is a popular thing to say. And according to Gallup, the engagement numbers of the United States have been consistently at about 30 percent engagement since they started this study in 2002. So, yeah, you get caught up in the media cycle of, Hey, it's quiet quitting. It's so bad. But actually, if you look at Gallup, some say there's actually a little bit more engagement in the workforce. Just a slight, but it's still about median 30%. So this idea that, um, you know, you've got an employee that it's the reason everything is bad, or if we just got rid of these, you know, you can't fix stupid. So if you got rid of these few stupid people, then things would get better. That's usually trying to fix a problem, uh, with the wrong solution, trying to be too technical in the solution, a quick fix. And, um, the first thing you want to be doing is when we're doing work, we're not looking to say, who, who do you get rid of? It's how do you develop this team? And how do you develop the individuals on this team to work together? Because usually the problems you're seeing are work style problems, personality conflicts, communication conflicts, lack of understanding of commitment of the, how to align your commitments. Um, and that's where you start. And then, only then, are you looking at, you know, who is the brilliant jerk who is really smart, but Contaminating the culture. Is contaminating the culture. And That's a, you know, that's a fact too, that one person can affect the entire morale of an entire team. And so there are some times, you know, higher, slow fire, fast is still a good rule if you're really able, if you really want to maintain the integrity of your team. But I like to say, you know, look to the system first, before you're starting to say it's the director of the market. Yeah, exactly. I, uh, I just started writing my blog for February. Um, last night I believe actually. Uh, and it's, I always come up with the title first. And then I build the content around that. That's good. That's the hard part. It just gives me something to point to, kind of. And I ended up with, uh, I just, so I always kind of write it themed based on the month, the holiday of the month. So this month is Valentine's Day. And so I often write about Valentine's Day. Relationships, you know, I've written love in the workplace and different things like that. But this time it's, uh, right in line with what you're talking about. It's, uh, I just want to, I want to know you're trying, you know, and that with interpersonal relationships, as well as with, with our teams, like if you hire somebody and they're coming along slower than you wish, but it's obvious they're trying, then I'm patient, kind of, you know, if I feel like you're not trying, then we've got problems. Yeah, that's important. And, and, uh, you know, that's. Um, it's the only reason that we would say, you know, Hey, get rid of this person is if they're actively violating your company values. And that's the test. You know, your values should be so firm and so clear. That's a lot of time. So you start with that sometimes. We'll help them create their values. You want those values to be so clear that you would hire and fire based on the values. If you're finding violations to the values, that's what you would say is really a fireable more than. Performance right out the gate and you're working with like 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 million other companies, right? Yeah, and they don't have their values defined most do most do but you'd be surprised sometimes sometimes they're not clear Sometimes I go around the room and say everybody tell me what the values are and I get different answers Sometimes the values are they are there they're on the poster knows them. They don't ever talk about them but People aren't doing, they're not living them. They're not, they don't really think about them as here's what our culture is. Yeah. Um, so it's really about how do you strengthen, do you need to clarify? Do you need to change any of the values and then really run with those values? Then when you talk about that application, is that like, okay, here's the strategy for communicating to your leadership team and then your managers. And then here's the, some of the things we're going to do to reinforce the values and talk about this and, you know, give you an opportunity to raise your hand and opt out if you don't want to be part of that. Yeah. And, and you know, what I found, what I have found in, in working with many different people at different levels, whether it's the executive team or directors or managers or individual contributors, everyone I've ever coached wants to be contributing. They want to be a part of the company and there's something about it that, That they want to be there for. Yeah, people want to succeed in their job. They, they want to. Whether they're the CEO or, you know, just a production line worker. Absolutely. And, um, you know, that desire is there, whether it's working or not, it, that desire is there for someone. There's, there's an intrinsic motivation available or latent for a lot of people. And if you can really turn that on, you're going to get a lot more, um, motivation. Extra work more, more from that person. If they feel that their personal fundamental, why their personal purpose is aligned with the company values. And I think, you know, we only work with companies that really do prioritize people and people's wellbeing, because that's what values led companies do. They're really going to be thinking that they get that culture is about people. And if you have a strong culture, you have a strong company. So a lot of times. There is a sense that there's a sense of shared values on an executive team and we're honing on them in on them Even if they haven't clarified them, we're clarifying what their values really are. You know, they're there They may not have articulated them. And this is the minority of cases most companies do have them already articulated But they may not have their leadership principles articulated. There's more What else is it that you guys value as how you want to work together? It makes sense Yeah. Uh, is there certain industries and types of businesses that you focus on? Well, since the company was founded in Austin, we're very innovation heavy. So we're, we're, we're focused on different industries, but usually the companies that we work with are growing fast, often, uh, investment backed, but sometimes just pure organic growth, um, mergers and acquisitions. Uh, because they're, they're friction created by those situations. Absolutely. Yeah. So when you're growing like that, whether it's organic or M& A, there's going to be problems that happen pretty quickly because the growth is happening so fast. People just don't know how to work together. So we come in there and we're helping them, um, break down the silos, open up communication, get clear, get end aligned, and to be able to to integrate what's, what's happening as it, as they grow. So our industries are usually tech enabled of some kind, although it ranges from robotics to Yeah, I was going to say, tech manufacturing seems like an option. We've got some manufacturing. Um, we're working in FinTech, um, health data science, uh, you know, things that were, you, you got a lot of coordination going on and you can grow, grow pretty quickly. You got, I think, isn't Tesla there now in Austin? Tesla is there. So if you know anyone, if you know Elon, let him know. Uh, He doesn't even follow me on Twitter, jerk snob. That's Twitter, that's cause you're on the wrong platform, it's X now. That's uh, like not to drift, but, uh, he's started sharing a little bit about South Africa just lately on Twitter, um, like the guy that might be the next prime minister has talked about how, well, maybe we will, maybe we won't exterminate all the white people. Wow. Okay. Right. That's it. Mm. It's not in the headlines yet, but, uh, yeah, no, that's, uh, anyway, we can talk more politics section later. But it's pretty terrifying. Like the guy has done some, uh, very inflammatory language and appears to be heading toward victory in the upcoming elections. All right. Yeah. No, I'm not familiar with that. Yeah. We'll, digress. Yeah. Uh, but Elon of course is from South Africa, I think. Right? So that's relevant to his notion. Uhhuh Well, if I find anybody that knows, um, you know, probably you could advise him to sell Twitter. Quit being so distracted. Focus on SpaceX. EL is my advice. what would you say to Elon if you met him? Uh, thanks for buying Twitter. Okay. uh, thanks for being, uh, awesome in the space. world especially. Teslas are cool. You know, I don't think the full electrification of vehicles. Is as likely to go as good as, as be as transformative as he would've hoped, I suppose, even when he first started doing the Roadsters and whatnot. Mm-Hmm. Um, but I think he's pretty cool. He's a crazy person, obviously Uhhuh Um, he's got that reality distortion field. It seems to be, you know, that's the, people would say Steve Jobs had a reality distortion field, and that was kind of how he led. Meaning he saw things that other people didn't see and he lived as if it was real. And so kind of, yeah. That reality distortion field is what shaped the results that he was getting, visionary leadership. I've got no question we'll have shit on the moon and Mars because of his vision, you know? That's how it works. Right. Yeah. I like that, that, that phrasing reality distortion field. Um, so talk to me about like, How did you get smart enough to say, Hey, I'm a strategic planner. Uh, did you, you said you worked in consulting with Sean early. Should we bounce to the time machine and just pick up the story early? Or, or do you want to? Sure. Sure. And you know, I think what, um, what's important about. Blue Case, my work, our work is, we combine high performance psychology, high performance coaching, and strategic planning and consulting. So, it's that combination that really distinguishes why our work has such a, uh, fast impact. So, this book is a combination of coaching practices and strategic planning. You know, kind of, how do you think about creating a plan and getting things done? What's your special sauce? Because your, your partner and the guy in the smaller letters on the cover of the book there, uh, is a PhD and stuff. But you're the CEO now, and your letters are bigger on the book. You just wrote it more, I guess, because you were down in Taos. Uh, yeah. And yeah, it was really, Kind of, I was the author of the book and he was, um, you know, he and I were, uh, collaborating on in terms of substantiating data and making sure the psychology kind of how he thinks about things was integrated. Well, you know, I really came, I was really more focused on performance coaching and high performance coaching was something that has always been. Really interesting to me. So when I was in college, uh, I was studying philosophy, speaking of abstract. So, uh, my thesis was on morality and business. And as people would say, is it one of my facilitators actually wrote a book about kind of the intersection of Christianity and free enterprise. It's something people will say it's an oxymoron, you know, like there's not, that doesn't mix, but I, I think it does and should for sure. I, we, we use the phrase that local think tank, uh, we look for the win, win, win, win. But we'll settle for the win win win if necessary. Yeah, you know, you want it to be about people and people doing well. And what's the point of it if it's Yeah, me doing well doesn't have to come at the expense of somebody else. Absolutely. You do you, I'll do me. Absolutely. And, you know, I was just always interested in that question. Yeah. But that's not practical, right? So I got out of school, didn't know what I was going to do. And I was working as a banquet server in the alumni center at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is, uh, as you know, if you know anything about basketball, Chapel Hill is about as big as it gets in terms of just like religion and basketball in North Carolina. So, uh, I'm working at the, at the alumni center and. Uh, that was the year that the coach Roy Williams first came over from the University of Kansas. It was controversial in Kansas that he came back to North Carolina, but there he was, and he was going to take over the losing est basketball team in the history of the school. The five guys that were his starters had lost more games the year before than any other team in the history of the school. Oh gosh. And so that's his first year, and he comes in there, and that's the year that I'm, that's serving at the banquet hall, and I'm standing in the back of the banquet hall as his team is having their dinner before the very first game of the season. It's just me, another server, and the team. And so I'm listening to him coaching the team, talking to them, inspiring them, motivating them, and literally in the back of the room, I'm, you know, I stand up to all everything. You're so excited. I can win a national championship. That's what I was thinking. And I'm like five foot eight if I'm lucky, you know, there's no way I'm going to be on a national championship. But I felt excited about, you know, whatever he was talking. And he took that same group of guys and won a national championship. No shit. Since that point, I was always really fascinated. What was that? You know, how do you do that? So I, um, had always been kind of focused on, uh, human potential, what, what gets people to, to perform at higher levels. And our book is based on high performance psychology. And that's really the study of what has some teams. And individuals perform at higher levels, even it's sub optimal circumstances. And so I've just been kind of on a journey of, you know, learning what, what is it that really gets that the best out of people. And my focus of coaching has been on leadership. But early on in my career, um, you know, I was coaching, um, I was coaching public speakers. I was coaching poker players. I was coaching athletes. I was coaching, uh, musicians, people on stage. Oh, really? And I was just helping them to get into this higher performance state so that they could, you know, Achieve what they were setting out to do. I wanna, I'm, I wanna hear more about that because it feels, feels like I wanna unfold that story. So I wanna, I want to jump in the time machine and go back to like kindergarten and we'll come back to this plus. Yeah. Oh yeah. Really? How did I get into this? Well, we got to meet Sean A. Little bit, but I wanna know like, how many years older are you than him or younger maybe? I don't know. Uh, and, uh, oh, I wanted to mention, I was thinking about. Uh, an old Ford quote, uh, whether you think you can or think you cannot, you are correct. Yes. And that's ultimately a lot of what that high performance coaching is, right? It's getting people to believe that they indeed can. Yeah. Um, so. I'll tell you a story that really exemplifies what high performance coaching is. We didn't talk about me in kindergarten, but, um, I was coaching a poker player. He was in the World Series of Poker. And in the World Series, you know, there's the one that you see on ESPN, but there's a lot of tournaments that were going on. Right, yeah, there's a thousand feeder tournaments, and then a hundred from there, or whatever. So this guy's been coaching poker players. He's a poker player himself, he's in the World Series of Poker, and I, you know, I've been coaching him, and we've been working on kind of getting into that flow state, and making sure he can stay in the flow state, and, uh, he calls me one night, and he says, I need to talk, and so we get on to the, at the time we were using Skype, pre Zoom, as we get on to Skype, and he's in a hotel room in Las Vegas, and his Face is white, and he's staring at the screen, Justin, I'm down thousands of dollars. I've completely tilted. And in poker, tilt means you're thrown, you're distracted. You know, once you start thinking you're losing, you can't get back. And he says, you know, I can't get out of it. I need your help. So, I I've got about, you know, 15 minutes with him. The first thing that we did was we did a mindfulness exercise, meaning I brought, I had him put his attention to his feet, his legs. Yeah. Start to slow down his breathing. Doing a body scan, exactly. So we first get into a relaxed. Parasympathetic nervous system state. So he gets into that relaxed state. And in that state, then we start visualizing, Okay, describe to me what it's like to win. Describe the experience of winning. What does it feel like? What starts to happen? Just imagine that you've already won. Get into that state. And you can kind of see his, you know, his body starts to come up, it comes up and he just opens his eyes and he says, I got it. And then he goes downstairs and he calls me the next day and he's like, Justin, I won 50, 000 and he's out. I did it. And, you know, so, uh, that's high performance psychology in a nutshell is that kind of, um, you know, good of him to be perceptive enough to recognize when he was, Well, that's what, that's why you have a coach. That's why people work with coaches, is to, is to, when you get, everybody gets thrown. Michael Jordan has to work with Phil Jackson to be the best basketball player in the world. Right. You have to have a coach to be able to get you back in there even when you're world class. Yeah, yeah, that's really aligned with Michael Jordan. Like in our, our think tank chapters, uh, one of the things that, that our facilitator drew, the same guy that wrote that book I mentioned, one of his last presentations said basically, it's hard to, to be a leader, especially unless you can kind of grow yourself. Uh, or change yourself, uh, and it's hard to change yourself by yourself. Absolutely. You know, that's whether it's a coach or, you know, we do the peer advisory where you've got a facilitator and a group that are all encouraging you and scolding you when you're being a dumbass. Absolutely. Uh. And I think the best leaders for that reason are very humble people because they recognize that. In order to succeed, you have to take feedback from others who, who see you better than you see yourself. Well, and if you can see yourself, like most of those good coaches have also seen themselves being a dumbass. Yeah, absolutely. Right? That's where some of that humility comes from there. Yeah, yeah. And it, and it, what I find the journey of leadership is an ongoing journey. And just continuing to have your ego checked at the door, at least for me, it's been, you know, continuing that. Before we jump to the time machine, why don't you kind of contrast your practice with, with Sean's in terms of, like, it sounds like you're more especially, he's in the kind of service industry focused kind of engineering firms and architects and stuff, and you're more in tech enabled environments. Is that the biggest distinguisher? But it's also about service. The practices and he seems very much more focused on the conflict and the dilemma and yeah, that I would put Sean in the category of Strategic, I don't know, he's great. To be honest, Sean is Sean is fantastic. I think he's, he's, I learned from him. I'm eight years older than him. Oh, you are? Wow. Okay. Eight years older. And I call him all the time for coaching and consulting for me. I mean, I really see him as often very, very wise for his years for myself. Same. I, I wouldn't be probably near as good as what I do, especially as a CEO or as a leader without his input. So, um, and, and absolutely, and I mean it, um, but I think what he, a lot of what he's focuses on is high stakes conflict negotiation strategy. And often he's worked in the, um, public sector, right? A lot of, a lot of that public sector work. And also he does. international work and, and is working with people who are more tied in the business and government. So our work is, yeah. And he's kind of all over, whereas you're maybe a little more focused on your Austin or Dallah regional. We have Nash, we're a national business, so we have clients in different places, but I think we are focusing on more on the clients that are, uh, industry disruptors and that they're focusing on fast growth. And, um, and I think also, We are focused on scaling leadership throughout the organization, so not just working at the executive level, but how do you take those same tools, make them very clear, simple, and then create a leadership operating system and scale leadership development across. The organization, so that you're kind of turning on the capability and the unused creativity and intelligence and innovation, turning that online throughout the entire company. Now is that you kind of plugging in your templated leadership development thing, or is it almost a custom crafted based on the needs of that firm element? Because they're going to be self administering it. In the future, most absolutely. And, uh, so what, what we really do is what's unique. Also, I think about our approaches, we've got our tool set. So one for working with the executive team, we're getting them aligned around their goals, their three year, one year, 90 day goals. We're, uh, we're teaching them the, the kind of fundamental communication, team building, relational skills that we, we, uh, we bring from coaching. We're coaching as those executives that themselves lead the departments. And then, um, when we start to bring our tools into the organization, we have, You know, we have created programs that are teaching the tools, coaching other leaders inside the organization to not only apply it in their teams, but to teach it to the people who they work with. So how to teach is a part of our program because we're trying to self propagate that those tools throughout the company, or else it doesn't work. So how do you get people to understand kind of embedded in themselves as a manager, And then create a team that's utilizing those tools and the team understands how to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, my staff person Alma is our operations manager now, and she's been training Lacey, our marketing coordinator. And, you know, it's really her first time really leading, but, and she's instinctually very good, but she's also humble and she's like, you know, I haven't really, like, how should I handle this? And how, what do I do here? Well good for her, for record, for asking. Oh, she's a peach. Like, yeah, she. wants to learn how to do the right things consistently. So if I had five different flavor Almas, that'd be easy. Life would be good. That's a good employee. Well, that's, uh, anyway, appreciate her. Um, I'm going to call a very short break. We'll jump in the time machine, go back to kindergarten, talk about those early years of coaching musicians and poker players and things like that. And, uh, zoom around and Find some fun topics after that. Great. Um, so into the time machine with us, you're eight years older than Sean, but also is it fall church, what's it called? Falls Church, Virginia. Falls Church, Virginia. Falls Church city or something though. Right. Or Falls Church County. It's the city of Falls Church. Okay. City of Falls Church. Yes. Too mild. radius city inside of the expanse of Northern Virginia, which is the county of Falls Church, probably even maybe, or no Fairfax County. And there's a false church outside of the city of Falls Church in Fairfax County. Oh, really? So it's, it's kind of like, uh, you know, Falls Church city is its own, municipality inside of this. Surrounded by Metropolis. Surrounded by the suburbs of DC. Yeah. I see. Yeah. Very, uh, interesting place. Uh huh. Um, so let's see, he's only like 35 or something. So you're still younger than me, but. I am 43. 43. So that puts you, what? That's like 1980. 1980. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, uh, we, we heard about like your folks and stuff like that a little bit from Sean, but. Probably many of our listeners won't have heard that, but maybe you just want to sum up the environment there. Was it just the two of you, two brothers? Yep. As kids is the two of us. And, and so for eight years, I was an only child. Right. And then. Little brother comes along. Stupid, annoying, uh, attention stealer. Yeah, I was glad, you know. Were ya? Goes from being an only child to having somebody around to play with. Yeah, yeah. He was younger, but we always hung out. We've basically been friends since he was born, I'd say. That's cool. Was he an old soul? Kind of even as a five year old, he was asking questions that five year olds shouldn't ask. Yeah, I mean, he was, you know, he was a very, he was a very charming five year old, and he's a charming person now. And I think that, that quality of his ability to engage with people was there. You know, I remember, uh, I remember people, adults having long conversations with him. You know, just because he's so engaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a, that's a real skill of his. That's, that's served him through his life. That's fair. But for me, uh, you know, he was always my little brother, definitely a little kid. You're, well, you're 18 and he's still only 10. So it wasn't until he was like graduating from college. And I remember him calling me up and, you know, we would talk regularly, but he was telling me about Gary Vaynerchuk and how it came to his college and, uh, you know, just inspired him so much. He needed to be an entrepreneur. And I got so inspired. Hearing him talk about Gary Vaynerchuk, that I knew I wanted coach thing from, from your back in the day days, right? Yeah, exactly. So, and, and this was before I'd really gotten into professional coaching. Uh, my first job was a teacher, so I'd been teaching. Okay. When he was, In college. So he kind of inspired me to think, you know, I, I want to actually teaching skills. Maybe I should do that instead. So let's go back to like characterize your like elementary high school environment. Were you strong student? Were you, you were a philosophy major when you went to college. So that's an interesting. dynamic? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I've always been real inquisitive. Okay. That's, you know, I just always, curiosity is one of my top three, uh, kind of values. Very important. I think, I think it's, you know, you just want to learn and ask big questions. Right. What is this all about? What, what does it mean? What are we, what are we doing here? These are things that I. And, uh, you know, I, I remember when I was probably eight years old around that time, I made a sign at a construction paper and put it up in my room and said, Justin Follin and Associates. We solve problems. Oh, no doubt. My dad was my only client. He'd come and sit down and we'd talk through problems. So there was something, I guess, about, you know, You know, that desire to think about problems and help people solve problems that's been there since I was a kid and I think that's informed me through my whole career. Clearly, yeah. Um, was it a decision then when you're like getting out of high school ready to wonder what next chapter is? Well, I went to high school at a, it's called Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Virginia. Oh, like a STEM program? High school before they really talked about that much. Yeah, it was, it was in, I graduated in 1998 from high school. So it was kind of early on and that was, uh, Um, it was touted as the top public high school in the country. Oh, wow. Okay. So it was this, you know, very elite public school. Now, people are taking tests when they're, are studying for the test starting in sixth grade to get into that school. But I, I kind of squeaked in. I mean, I wasn't like the, you know, I was on the wait list. It was a, it was a, um, Something that I've always been drawn to is to kind of challenge myself and academically and intellectually. Um, but I had to work at it a little bit more than other people. Right. But I just really was interested in things and I wanted to learn. Isn't that a funny thing? Like, like some people just have tremendous raw intelligence. Yes. And others have to work harder at it, but there isn't really a difference in the destination you can get to. Right, right. The raw intelligence can pick it up faster, but often times doesn't have it as Uh, Yeah. Yeah. I just went to my 25th high school reunion uh, in, in October and it was fascinating, I hadn't seen any of them and most of them in 25 years. I hadn't been going to their regular reunions and a lot of them are very, very, you know, successful. And at the same time, it was just interesting to realize, you know, we'd all been in this kind of social experiment of this high performing, High performing kids. Yeah. Like, how do you make them successful? And there's a way that I both appreciate it. I think that I was really well prepared for college. It's college was a lot easier for me, I think because of high school, but also there was this intense pressure in the environment to, to excel and to succeed. And I think I needed to, to kind of get away from that when I went into college and was really, um, Wanted to kind of explore different ways of thinking about things. And, and I think when I was studying philosophy, it was really the beginning of an inquiry of how do you, what are some really different ways of thinking about life and how do you start to like, you know, kind of questioning the things that I'd learned growing up as, as a lot of young people do, but sure, that was a real serious focus for me. You know, what are other ways of thinking? How do other people think? people think? How do other cultures think? Right, right. You know, what are, what are other values? I got really into Eastern philosophy. I got into Western philosophy. I'm like studying how different cultures have thought about things. Yeah. My, uh, my college roommate was a religious studies major, uh, kind of an escaped Catholic, uh, in that space. And then I took, uh, several, um, philosophy courses, uh, three or four Greek philosophy ethics. Uh, we had, uh, A former Olympian, uh, Canadian fellow, uh, was our philosophy teacher. He also taught at the seminary, but quite a, it was quite a, you know, I only took maybe three, four classes, but what's a philosophy major? That must be then you get like 30 classes, different things. I mean, it seems like quite a, gotta be quite a haul, right? I don't remember. I don't remember how many classes we took. I, I, a lot of it was, you know, you focus on. focus. So in, in, when I was doing my honors thesis, I was doing a number of business, business ethics classes. Right, right. I remember that. Oh, so that's part of it, especially because for you, you were kind of trying to work at that juncture of philosophy and business. That's where I got to, you know, I'd been taking all these different classes and learning about consciousness and thinking about ethics and, and then there was just something I think about the practicality of. You know, we live in this world and there's all these different ideas about what's right, what's wrong, what's best for society. And when you really think about what business is, it's, It's just an attempt to have a working society where people can That allocates resources. That allocates resources. And what's, how do you do that the best? And the, the dilemmas of that come, you know, bring up. Obviously the capitalist, socialist one is a very popular one. But there's all kinds of things. I was studying Adam Smith and Aristotle. And Aristotle had very different ideas about business than Adam Smith. Sure. But a lot of our ideas now are based on Adam Smith. So there's different ideas. You know, there's other kind of soulful things that Aristotle was thinking about that Adam Smith kind of threw out the window listening about that. Yeah, like the ghost and machine was kind of departed from Adam. Yeah. So, and I, for me personally, and I value soulfulness and I value caring about people and I value something deeper than just making money. And so I was, you know, I wanted to study that and I wanted to learn about it. And, uh, so is that where you finished then was with a philosophy? degree from UNC? From school. Yeah, I finished from. And then did you go teach? I did. Yeah, I taught. You taught philosophy like in high school somewhere or something? Or just, uh, teach, got a teacher's certificate and taught somewhere? Or what were you doing? Well, um, I actually, uh, went to Washington, D. C. after North Carolina, and for the first year out of school, I met, I was writing, and I met, uh, I was interning at a place called Americans for the Arts. Okay. And I, I was really interested in the arts in general, and I thought there would be, it would be a place that a bunch of artists worked. That wasn't the case. It's an art administration organization. And I kind of learned a little bit of art administration, not a career I wanted to get into, but I did meet somebody at the Americans for the arts named Sharnice Fox, and, uh, she was talking to somebody in the break room. And I was listening to her talk and I said, are you a writer? And she, you know, do you, do you do poetry? And, and she was telling me about her slam poetry. And I was just really interested in it. It's a very big slam poetry, spoken word scene in Washington, D. C. And so I was just curious, you know, just listening to it. And then I left the kitchen and she came running back out and said, are you a writer? And I said, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, aspiring, I mean, you know, I guess, exactly. Yeah, I guess. So she said, well, come out, we're going to do a 48 hour film festival. Help us write it, which is the 48 hour film festival is you have 48 hours. They give you an assignment and you have 48 hours to make a whole movie and then submit it to the competition. So, um, I went down to, to U street in Washington, DC. I met up with this group that was going to be making this film. We made the short film. We entered into competition. We said. Hey, we should do more of this. How, what else can we do? So we, we found another contest that BET, Black Entertainment Television was putting on. We wrote a script, more of a full length script for their competition. We submitted the script and we won the competition. So we ended up making a film on BET that first year out of school. Wow. And then I thought, I'm going to make films, you know, so I went down. This is easy. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. And so I, I got in my car and I went, I was going to drive to California and I kind of. I wanted to go around, but I, I stopped in Austin, Texas, the South by Southwest was there and a friend of mine was living there at the time. So stopped in Austin, um, left Austin after, after a week and everywhere I went afterwards, I just kept thinking about Austin and Austin had film and music and it had kind of just this creative environment. And at the time it was very much cheaper to live in, cheap place to live. So I got really excited about Austin and I, and I went back there. And, and then that's when I started to find myself in, in. In teaching. Okay. And so, uh, when I got, when I got to Austin, I was, uh, uh, talking with a friend who had just gotten a job at this school called the Cabelli School in Austin. And she was telling me about the, the leader of the school. Like kind of an exploratory leadership school kind of thing. Yes, exactly. It was a, it was a school that was based on leadership development principles. And she was telling me about the leader of the school and just talking about his vision of education and transforming this, transforming education. And I didn't know I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to meet him because of how she talked about his vision. And so I went to meet with him and he really was one of the most inspiring human beings I've ever met. And so I did admin there for a semester and then I got a job as a teacher for a couple of years, just really just to be in the environment that he had created. Yeah. Well, and it kind of brings me back to that. That coach you guys stole from Kansas, right? Like that was one of your first moments. This guy was another one. And those are forks in your road and a lot of respect. Yes. Yeah. Coats. Oh, his name is Kota Kibale. Uh, he was one of my first real mentors and really helped me to. So I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to, to kind of discover who I was as a leader and as a teacher. Right. Right. So, And then like Sean coaxed you out of that through this consulting kind of conversation. And he's talking about Gary Vaynerchuk and he's so inspired by being an entrepreneur. And I'm thinking, I want to do that. And you know, he'd been this little kid in my life and then he's graduated college. He sounds like an adult, you know, I'm like, I think I'm onto something to do this. So, so we did some collaboration early on and I. Uh, yeah, I actually set up shop simultaneously as a, as a performance coach getting out of the school. And, um, And the Austin scene is like the art scene and the, I guess, poker and everything else, right? Like, and you just put up a, did you take a course or something on how to be a coach? Were you qualified basically from your background and just curiosities and the teaching time? Yeah. Well, you know, as part of being at that school, we were doing leadership development and so I was doing leadership development workshops. Thanks. Um, David, I met David who is my co author in the book. He became another mentor of mine. So very early on, he was actually kind of coaching me how to coach. And, uh, I had been teaching a public speaking class at the school. And I thought, you know, I can figure out how to Uh, do what I'm doing with these teenagers and do it with, uh, professionals. Yeah. And, um, you know, so I was, I started with working with public speakers who were working on stage and they'd overcome stage fright and they had to be in the moment and in that flow state. So I was studying high performance coaching, I was studying the flow state psychology and then naturally started to meet other people and, and, you know, take them on as clients and that eventually led to me, you know, Working with CEOs, I was doing that. So that kind of, one thing led to another. And the first clients were just, like, everywhere from small businesses, or like, how did you find them? Like, what did that look like? Were you Sean Follin and Associates at that point? Justin Follin. Or Justin Follin, sorry, my bad. Yeah, I apologize. We, um, so here's how I did it. I made a website by myself and, uh, on a piece of software that no longer exists. It's so basic in terms of how I made a website. And, uh, you know, talked about the pain points and I talked about the service. And as soon as I finished the website, it was right after I resigned from the school and was going to go off on my own. I made the website and I was walking down the street the same day. And One of the parents from the school says, Hey, Justin, from the restaurant patio. And I said, Hey, Al, how are you doing? And I tell him, you know, not coming back to the school. I'm, I'm doing this public speaking coaching. And he says, I need a public speaking coach. So day one, I got my God, makes it that obvious. Exactly. He's got a plan for you. And that's how I think it has always worked for me. You know, just kind of, you know, trust us, like put it in there and trust that the next thing is going to reveal itself. So I could tell the whole story of my life that way. It's a, it's how it's worked. And I think most people can. Right. If you're open to it, if you're open to it, right. Uh, if you're blaming the world for all the terrible things that you've done to yourself, then that's different. Yeah. Um, what's. Part of my last month's blog was how most of the terrible things that happened to us, thank God, are self imposed. Absolutely. Yeah. That's, uh, you know, the negativity bias and, uh, I've got plenty I could talk about in terms of how that relates to the work that we do and the sort of self fulfilling prophecy phenomenons. Right. Right. It's so big. Oh. We passed 420. I was going to offer you that joint that hangs out of my dinosaur too. I figured you probably might not take me up on it. High performance coaches and marijuana don't exactly always go together. I'm good. But you're in Colorado. So, you know, I try to be prepared for all my desires. I appreciate that. Um, so, so obviously you're building a reputation and that really, that just kind of organically grew from there to the point where you're getting referred to more and more. High qualified and high paying, you know, cause CEOs will pay more than Joe from the school. Yeah. And, and, uh, well, you know, I'm always, I'm really a big believer in the 80, 20 principle and really figuring out, you know, what's one or two things that. If you focus on, we'll produce the most results. So the principle is that 80 percent of our results come from 20 percent of the inputs. And 80 percent of those results come from 20 percent of those inputs. So, you know, in our work, we're talking about how do you get down to the big three? Like, what are the big three things you could do in this week, this month, this year? Uh, that would, if you focused on those, would produce the most results. And that's, that's behind a lot of our strategic planning. I wonder where I fit the podcast into that in my own world. Well, it sounds like it's one of your top three. It's one of my passions for sure, but I'm not certain that it creates the results I'm looking for necessarily. You know, I don't monetize it much. I've got one small sponsor, one coming along, I think soon, but it's more of a passion project still. But local think tank started that way. So. My real business started as a passion project, I mean I charged revenues, but it was very much a side hustle hobby for several years before trying to systematize it and make it grow. And this doesn't integrate, the podcast doesn't really integrate. Yeah, I meet lots of new people. Um, you know, it grows my network, but almost nobody, like one person applied, uh, and then they ghosted me and then like, Hey, I heard about you on the, on a podcast and I wanted to check out local think tanks, Uhhuh. So it hasn't happened that way. Um, but like two of my guests have become facilitators. One of my guests now works for me in a business development function. So, like I said, it expands my network and those facilitators are each little revenue engines of their own. So. You know, it's not, the podcast doesn't owe me anything, but is it the most important time I spend each week? I don't know, but I like it more than a lot of the time I spend. So that's, you know, for me, it's like, this is closer to a walk on the beach than it is to two hours working on my email. So what do you think that the outcome of the podcast is? Besides just the intrinsic experience. Yeah. What do you see it as? Well, we're trying to grow a local think tank, right? Like we'd like to, I'd like to get a big enough center of mass here where Northern Colorado can be kind of the OG franchisee, and then we can develop a headquarters office that can be a licensor of the brand and things like that. And do a lot of services that are annoying to other brands. Business veterans in other regions that would like to build chapters in a community like we have here. And then we can do, you know, for 25 percent or something, we'll do all your billing, all your this and that and whatever else. So in my imagination, I could take, I've got a 1989 Ford ambulance, uh, that's a mobile podcast studio, uh, that I just picked up and it's, it's being wrapped and finished out inside. And so in my imagination, if we get somebody in Colorado Springs or Austin, that we want to build a branch around. Or they want to buy in or whatever, you know, we haven't figured out all the rules yet, but then we can go, I can go down there, record a dozen interviews with locally famous ish business people. Especially people that are resonant with the cause and do a bunch of marketing and, you know, try to do some kind of event or maybe there's a contest to be on. I don't know yet. I love it. It'd be better if I get really famous and then it would probably, a lot of problems would take care of themselves. So if you're listening out there, share this podcast episode with your friends if you think they might be interested in strategic planning with some philosopher, Strategic planner, dude from Texas. But yeah, so that's it for me, like in my imagination and that, I guess I'm trying to distort reality. Like the reality right now is that we've got a, you know, a thousand downloads per month or something, and I'm definitely not going to change the world or make a lot of money at that pace. And. Like, it feels like the mechanism that we could take the loco think tank and loco experience to more places. Yeah, this is great. I mean, that's the point of a vision. That's how, you know, vision creates reality. Right. It's a vision that we can communicate. You can see it, you can feel it, and then you can communicate it. That's how the vision becomes real. That's, that's how it works. So, here we are, we're talking about the vision, and that vision is going to happen now probably because we talked about it, and then the more you talk about it, the more things start to happen. Yeah, well, and that's one of the beauties of being, have you, do you guys use any platforms like, uh, DISC or Myers Briggs or things like that in your work? Yeah, we do. And we actually have a chapter in the book on the specific one called Tilt 365, which is one that Facebook's used. Uh, Red Hat is another company that's used it. It's a very specific one that we use because it's very adaptable and I found it very useful, but I'm very familiar with disk. I'm familiar with Myers Briggs. You should look up, uh, Halos Relational Intelligence and specifically their triads assessment. Um, it's a Brazilian firm and it's really popular in Europe and all across South America, but we're like their one beachhead in America. Look what Think Tank is. Okay. Um, and the founder is Where just like me and I've been through a 24 hour certification delivered probably about 15 workshops now to different small companies into our chapters And it's not really a passion of mine necessarily, but as I learned more and more and more about it I was like, oh, this is all the stuff I've already learned. They just put language behind it Like it all intuitively makes sense to me. What is it about it that really stands out to you? Um, it's simple It's relatively easy for a small company to self administer Like, DISC is a little bit designed to have somebody charge you 15, 000 a year to help you with it if you're a small company. This, for a few thousand dollar investment and some training, could be self administered within instead of, like, paying somebody to always help you with it kind of thing. Um, for me it's more intuitive. Um, and so, like, for example, I'll just give you the quick outline of it. It's a five color model. Um, And each person has two essential colors. Uh, I'm a white green. The white has like lots of ideas. They're called the thinker. A ton of ideas, ton of unread emails, a messy desk, a lack of follow through. Um, sometimes, sometimes eccentric. Um, and the green is the social relational. People, people first. Right, right. So like even within my company name, local, local community think tank, I've got the white and green basically. Uh, then there's the blue is the organizer planner. Brown is the integrator, which is kind of a mix of all the things and understands the complexity better than most everybody else. And then Orange, no, yeah, then Orange is the achiever entrepreneur. And each of those things kind of works like yin and yang stereo. So like my white and my green challenge and contend with one another, uh, for primacy and giving me more than just one perspective. And then the HALOS has a third trait that's developed based on how you've applied your time. For me, that's the orange. That's the, the, the Achiever Entrepreneur cause I've been around business people all my life. I own a business, et cetera. Cool. So, and for my team, Like, my little skinny wedges of organized and systemic thinking, uh, are covered well by Alma. Nice. She's like blue and brown. So she's opposite me, largely. And what's cool is that she can't execute all my ideas, but she's excited to execute some of them. And even Lacey, our marketing gal, doesn't have a whole lot of white type, but I got all, I got enough ideas, just come and talk to me, and then you can execute them. And that gives those non white people, they're like, oh good, you know, I don't have to rack my brain or search online or whatever to I can just go to the idea fountain and fill up my little cup. That's awesome. That's great. You know, I, I think that's, that's the sort of, the promise of the team is to have that kind of balance, you know, the point of the team is to have greater. Especially when you're really small. Oh, I mean, really every single group I've ever worked with is dealing with the same problems, whether they're small cup business or much larger. But yeah, a thousand person company is really, 612 person teams. Yes. All these teams are dealing with the same problems. Right. You know, you want it to be greater than the sum of its parts. You know, that's the point of a team, but usually because of, um, different work styles, which is why chapter five is adapt to work style because of different work styles, it creates a lot of communication problems and a lot of tensions that just shouldn't exist there because people haven't really learned how to distinguish each of their different styles and adapt to work with each other, like the way you just described. Right. Right. Well, and I just had a conversation with, with Alma just today, um, about texting. A lot of times I'll, if, Oh shit, I forgot. I'll text her real quick, you know, voice to text usually. And that way I know it's kind of caught by the machine. And she was like, well. Know that sometimes I'm doing something else, and I don't really want to think, divert from that to think of a response and stuff, but know that I've seen it, and I don't, not like that communication style, and so I said, well, if you just give me the little thumbs up, then I know you've seen it. Uh, and so, like, even talking through that specific thing, cause she doesn't want to, like, take her attention really away from what she's working on, cause she's working on it. Yeah. You know, and she doesn't also want to say, Save that for later, cause then I'll just lose it. Yeah. So it's great. And that's what I love about these assessments when they're simple, which I think is really important. They're simple because. You know, people will say, well, can we get everybody in the organization assessed with this, with the tilt? And sometimes they'll do that. But I like to think, you know, you don't really need, once you get the basics of how different styles are, you don't necessarily have to assess somebody to start to learn, you know what, this person's more of a connection oriented person. They're just going to be more like that. They're going to be thinking more about communicating with people, they're going to be connecting with people, they're going to connect ideas, they're going to, they're going to want to be in that space, whereas a structure oriented person and thinking about the, how are we going to get there, and execution, and you need both, you know, and they can't be at odds with each other, you got to be working together. From those little short descriptions, and like, I suspect strongly that you're a brown type, and an orange type, as two of your three, did that, did those resonate? Yeah. More or less with you. Well, you have to remind me, because I don't know that Uh, Brown was the systemic thinker. Yeah. Um, Orange was the achiever entrepreneur. Kind of the get her done person. Yeah. Well, you know, definitely the Brown type. Right. That seems like you're dripping with Brown to me. Definitely the Brown type. The, um, the thing about, you know, what I've, I've learned from using these assessments is I think also when we're in different roles, it can demand different qualities. We're human beings, we're, we're adaptable people. And so I think in the roles that I'm in, I've really had to, you know, What we call tilt, then this other direction, orange or Mm-Hmm. towards impact, uh, in, in the one we use. Yeah. Get some execution out there. So you gotta go, you gotta make it, you gotta part, you get it done. That's the, you gotta get it done. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, um, you know, I think, I definitely think in terms of, you know, complexity and I like systems thinking and stuff like that. So yeah, the brown brown's probably right in my wheelhouse. Naturally. Yeah. Sean's probably green in part. Uh. Which one? The people person. Definitely. I wouldn't say in part. He's oozing with charisma, kind of. Put it in green, yeah. Like I said, since he was five years old, you know. Right. Um, what, is there other significant chapters of your journey? Uh, toward Blue Case and, and like any other sidebars or rails? Sean mentioned in his introduction that you were a musician. Yep. Turned strategic planning guy. Yeah, yeah. Like talk to me about that. Was that a side hustle while you were a kid? Teaching and coaching and stuff? Yes. And are you a bass player, drummer, singer? Singer songwriter. Nice. I like it. I've led three bands in Austin. And, and had, uh, you know, recorded some albums. Okay. And that was, uh Is there, like, a most famous of those three bands? Or can people get your music on Apple or anything like that? You can get it on Spotify. Spotify? It's Justin Fallon, except it's spelled F A L L E N. So, Justin Fallon, sort of a stage name, uh, and I got an album there and um, I had a band called Justin Fallon and the Angels, but I always recorded as Justin Fallon, and uh, and so yeah, you know, I was playing, I was, I was real passionate about, like, you're passionate about the podcast, I was passionate about this thing. the craft of specifically Texas songwriting. And so I went down to Texas and got just surrounded by a bunch of great songwriters and was learning the craft and because I was in Austin, I set the, I really set a bar, I wanted to play with the best possible musicians I could play with and just kept, you know, I really pursued that just for the sake of music. Yeah, yeah. And eventually, uh, had to To kind of say, you know, I did that band for you. Semi professional? Yeah. Semi professional. Make 20 grand, 30 grand a year, 50 grand a year. Hardly. Covered 80 percent of your expenses. Yeah. Yeah. There's a reason why eventually I had to kind of focus on, uh, something else because semi professional doesn't mean you can do much with that. Right. Right. Pay half the rent. Pay for my next album is basically what I was going for. Right. Right. Um, but, yeah, that was a big, big focus in my life, and, um, you know, just always have had this artistic side, and Do you still play regularly? Um, I play, I play much more as a hobby. Right, right. Than I did, you know That was my own journey. I was a banker that was a really damn good cook, so I decided I should be a restaurateur. Oh, cool! And I had a lot of smart people be like You know, cook for fun, dude. Like, you'll like it a lot more for a lot longer if you make it your hobby instead of your, your job. Yeah, you know, that's really, that's really wise. That's really wise. I found myself getting, getting kind of burned out of trying to get attention. Right. I'm trying to just get it out there and do that and, and uh, I did lose some, some of the joy that I had when I first started. Yeah, yeah. I've been getting it back. Cool. I've been finding ways to get it back. But it's a hobby at this point. Very cool. Um. Feels like we could make the turn to our, uh, Faith, Family, Politics standard segments. Uh, do you know where you want to start with that sequence? Are you, I didn't see a wedding ring, are you a single guy? I, I have a girlfriend. You have a girlfriend. Do you want to talk about her? Yeah. Is it serious? Uh, it's, uh, yeah, it's serious. You know, it's, it's, it's, we've been together for about three years. Okay, that's pretty serious. Yeah, we get, we get along really well, and, uh, Does she have a name? Her name is Chantel. Hi, Chantel. She'd be really happy to hear that we're talking about her, probably. What, uh, no, we, we're going to talk more about her, because that's the closest thing you've got to family. We can ask you more about Sean and your folks and stuff, too, but, you know, you don't have any children, no prior relationships, or? No, I don't have any kids. She has a son. Okay. So, spends time with him, and that's kind of it. How old is he? He's, uh, nine years old. Um, and, uh, If you're willing, we generally do one word descriptions of children, and even though it's not your child, uh, would you like to take a, take a whack at that? Uh Very challenging. Wow. Topic. Um, uh. One word. One word. I mean, I hyphenate my word. You can hyphenate your word. I'll hyphenate my word. It'll be fine. Strong spirit. I like it. I like it. Um, so tell me about Chantel. Like, uh, why did she say yes the second time you asked her out? The second time. Actually, you know, uh, she and I, met 10 years before we got together. Or, you know, about 10 years. And actually she was at a. Concert I was playing. Okay. She was a, she was a fangirl. Well, you know, I didn't It was more just a friend, a friend group. Yeah, yeah, whatever. I don't even know that she knew. She wasn't a groupie or nothing. She wasn't a groupie. Did you have groupies? Um, yeah, I probably had a groupie. Like three? Yeah, I probably had one groupie. Maybe two groupies. And I don't know that they would have said that they were groupies. There was a few girls that came to quite a few shows. She was there, uh, you know, with, with friends of friends and, uh, and, and so we, we'd interact very, very, um, loosely. Like we didn't really know each other that well back then, but I'd follow, follow her on social media and she writes a lot of interesting, philosophical kind of things. Beautiful things. Yeah. She thinks differently about the world than other people. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Even if I didn't agree with her. Right. And I kind of kept her on my feed because I always like to read what she wrote. And then she had her son and I, you know, I did know his dad. And so I, I enjoyed kind of, I felt somewhat of some, I knew her. There was a kinship there. Some kinship, yeah. And, um, and I had been, I had been dating another woman and we broke up and then saw her posting some stuff on, um, on, on her feed that, that she was in a life transition herself and I didn't know what was going on with her. And there was just something in me that just thought, Um, I should reach out to her. And I, I had, I knew exactly what I wanted to say, and I sent her And what is that? Like, what is that thing? I mean, we, we threatened to transition to, to faith, uh, almost. But, like, when that, something comes upon you, and, and it's just like I should reach out to her, and I should say this. Like, is that from external? Is that from, you know, the universe, or is it God, whatever your definition of that higher power thing, is that like a, or is it your body, your subconscious, boiling something up that's been cooking for a while, and it goes, boop? Um, I'm just curious for myself, I don't know the answer, honestly. Yeah, yeah, that's a great, I mean You seem very sure about it. I'm very sure of it. Right. I remember when I graduated from college, and I was in that phase where I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I had just graduated from college, and I saw my uncle, who was kind of, you know, distant from the family, a lot of people hadn't seen him, and I got together with my uncle, and I was telling him, you know, I don't, I don't really know, you know, I've got to find a job, I've got to do this, and he just said, What do you, what do you really want to do? And, follow your heart. And I remember that so clearly because I'd never really had anyone say that. And, and I've done that ever since. Of, of really getting clear on whatever it is that that sense or that knowing. That comes from something beyond myself is saying, it's like, go for that. You have to go in that direction. And I don't know much else. I think a lot of people seem to know a lot of things. I feel more comfortable in the unknown or the uncertain and just to discover. Um, and I think it's because I, you believe there'll be a light that shines your way out of that, I think there is ultimately, I think that it's there in everyone. I really do. I think that if we're willing to pay attention and get quiet and note it, it's not fear. Yeah, it's never fear. It's like the fear is keeping it from being clear. Yeah, yeah, but it's deeper than that and I'm happy to say God or spirit or universe or whatever we get to the faith section next I was just going to share with you, we, you know, our four step process that's much like Vistage's or Socrates before that or whatever. So we, we, we set the stage, we give it some background, put the question out there. You know, should I open this new location? Should I fire my marketing manager? Should I, whatever your question is. And then the fellow members, the 10 other people in the room get to ask clarifying questions for 15 minutes before they're allowed to make any suggestions. And then they get to make suggestions and, and the, the presenter will get 15, 20 suggestions on a whiteboard, right? And that's not that useful. But what I tell candidates, especially that are thinking about signing up is of those 15 or 20 suggestions, there's going to be. One or two or three or four of them that really hit you in the gut, or hit you in the heart, or hit you in the, between the eyes, and you know you should probably do that. Yeah. And then say yes to those things. So that's our fourth step is commit to action. Yeah. So you got twenty suggestions, which two or three or four things really resonated with you. Yeah. For reals, cause the universe will kinda tell you what the right answers are. Yeah. And if you make a mistake, then change your decision and do something different. Like, the biggest thing is to take action. Absolutely. Mistakes will happen. Yeah. You can always change your mind. Yeah, you know, I've coached a lot of CEOs and I've coached a lot of leaders. And I think what made me good at this, naturally, is not because of training or education. I think it's that I've been so true to this fundamental principle of myself that I have a laser pointed radar for what the truth for someone else is. Because I'm not You can ask them questions until you get to their truth and they're like, point to that. And they'll know it. Yeah. In a conversation with me, they'll realize themselves. And that's, to me, what's really important is it's about what's in our self, like big S self. Totally. I can't make you want to be the best CEO. Yes. This company has ever seen. Yes. You can make you want to be the best CEO. This company's ever seen. Let's see why, how. And it's there, it's there. Right. And it's, it's just about being that mirror for them. And, and then there's learning all the strategic stuff and how to execute and, and the tools to get to manage and all that stuff. But really it starts with this phenomenon. Yeah, yeah. We drifted quite a ways off of Chantel, but why did you ask her out for that second date? Like, or was it just, was it on like when she reached out to her? I reached out. I said, and I said, I knew I saw in my mind the actual message to say, say, uh, hi, Chantelle, it's been a while since we saw each other. I'd like to take you out on a date. Would you like that? And she said, It was like, when you sent that message, I just had no resistance immediately. It was exactly what I wanted to hear. People had been so wishy washy at not being direct. It was so refreshing. It was to court me. Yeah, so it was just very clear to her, and so we kind of naturally, um, connected pretty quick. And, uh, it was, it was a very easy conversation. And, and, um, you know, it was clear both of us were just curious about each other. I want to drift to faith because I want to remember to grab this because, um, so I don't know. Most people think of prophets as people that can see the future, kind of familiar with that whole notion or whatever I imagine through your studies and stuff, but more accurate is really Prophets are people that can see clearly and God gave them the ability to drop some future bombs once in a while so that people would believe them when they were speaking the truth about the present. Like, if you look, most of their content is really about the way we are right now. Um, and I don't think God has stopped creating prophets. I think you're probably a prophet. Like you see things, you get these visions, these snapshots of things that are ready to occur. And I suspect that even in your work, In your strategic planning realm, your superpower is really seeing things more clearly than other people do. I, I think Helping CEOs see it clearly for themselves, etc. Yeah, it's, I mean, people don't really You don't have to call yourself a prophet. No, yeah, I don't know. I own that for myself. Like, I'm definitely that. Like, I'm that person. There's all different kinds of people in the world and, you know, Paul writes about the different parts of the body and, you know, all these different blessings and spiritual gifts and stuff and I have the gift of prophecy. I see things more clearly than most people do. I think you do too. I will, one, I agree. I, I tend to agree about how you're describing what this divine, you know, the prophets are, what that channel is. It has more to do with the present moment and the connection with that higher self. I think that that is how I interpret those stories to more than like the visions of like, you know, brimstone from the future. It really is more of a channel of, of, of clear. Articulated vision and, um, and, and I think that that really also, I learned a lot from being musician because when you are creating or writing a book, like, you know, sitting in them and looking at the mountain and then the, the outline comes up when the song comes. It's not like I wrote a song. It's like, I, a song came on me, came through me. Oh yeah. No, I mean, I, not to like me too ism, but I've like blurted out so many song verses in the shower in the morning that just went down the drain with it. You got to write those down. Right. And sometimes I sing two or three verses and it's all rhyming and it sounds great. And then it's gone. It goes down the drain. They won't stay. That is one thing you do have to actually do something with it, but. Um, you know, and you get in a moment where if you're performing and it's like all time drops away and you're just fully in that present moment, it's like something else is moving through you. Writing the book was like that. Well, when I'm coaching, that's what it's like. It's like, it's like there isn't a past, present or future. There's just the present moment. And somehow sometimes I'll just say like someone will be dealing with something really difficult. They'll be telling me about the most complex problem that they've, they've got, and I'm thinking, I have no idea what they need to do, so I'll just close my eyes and I'll just ask to hear like, what, what, what do they need to hear right now? And then I'll, I'll know. And always know, I'll always know. And that's how it works. You know? And that's why it's so powerful. Right. Because it's not about me. It's hard to put that part in the book, though. That's not, that, that, maybe that's book two. My more esoteric, uh, book about this. Well, and it is, I think that's a big part, you know, so many CEOs and business leaders second guess themselves recurringly and repeatedly, and, you know, that stops you from really putting your, Your momentum forward toward it. Right. And so having that certainty almost that you're talking about, and even, even if you have it and they don't yet, that can be very powerful. Absolutely. Because So two things, one is as a coach, if I'm coaching a CEO, I am listening. So there's a term in coaching, having the thought bubble over the coachee. So we're talking like there's a thought bubble of you and you're thinking my job is to be in your thought bubble and apply my ability to hear in your thought bubble. And so that's what makes coaching great. It's not about me being smart. It's about me being able to understand you and listen for what's true in you. Right. And. Yeah, you're not putting words in my mouth, you're identifying my words in my own mouth. And then, kind of, shaping it, and then when I ask what this person needs to hear, it's just, it's, it's somehow helping to, to simplify, to create clear action, to, to get clear about what exactly would move that truth forward. Right. And, um, You know, I was a public speaking coach before I was a public speaker. I was a CEO coach before I was a CEO and no doubt it's a different skill to coach a CEO than to be a CEO. And I think what CEOs struggle with is there will always be some level of doubt. There will always be a noise or chatter in the head. Sure. There will always be Uncertainty about what the future holds because they're dealing with so much change and probably more so now than there's ever been organizations are changing so fast. So it's not that they, um, can always hear this themselves, right? And, uh, nor should they be able to all the time, but how do you establish the practices that allow you to come back to it more and more and more? Because it's not, I don't think it's just like an intuitive gut instinct. I think it's actually whatever got them to the place that they're the CEO. Right. Is this, and it's there for them to hear right now. Yes, and it's perhaps being crowded out. It's being crowded out. By all this other stuff. Like their life is so much more complex. And that's where the challenge of going, you know, from a, a one million dollar company to a ten. Or a ten million dollar company to a hundred. Exactly. Uh, it's kind of that, there's too much friction. Yeah. You've got too much stuff to get between you and whatever that call was. Yeah, exactly. Um, let's keep it in the face for a moment. My, my sense is, is that, you know, if you've got a, a company. Christian, I think even Catholic background, didn't Sean go to Catholic grade school and stuff? Yeah, we both went to a Catholic school. But that you've got at least a lot of, uh, Zen Buddhism kind of Eastern practices dissolved in, and I would probably characterize myself as somewhat the same, but where is your faith exploration really dumped you now? Are you actively engaged in any kind of a faith community? Um, yes, spot on as far as my background was, I was practicing, Zen Buddhism, when I got out of college, I was very serious about Zen meditation. Um, that's influenced me. I got into yoga and practiced some very, you know, daily practice of yoga. Um, and then, and then as far as faith goes, there's a principle, one of the Um, you know, limbs of yoga is these principles, basically ethical principles of how to live. And one of them is called Ishvara, Ishvara Pranidhana, Ishvara Pranidhana, Pranidhana. And that means complete surrender to the divine. And, um, to me, that's the universal of all of the mystical traditions of all of the. Uh, philosophies that really come direct from the prophets. Like where all those wisdom books come together and agree. Where all the wisdom come together, yes. Where it all comes together is ultimately your surrendering to life itself. To that which is greater than yourself. Well the prime mover. Whatever it is. Whatever it is that you call it. I think that we give different names to the, to the mover within, you know, like, uh, um, Rumi calls it, he's just the flute, and there's the, the, God is the wind playing through the flute. You know, that, that's what we are, is we're this expression, we're every human being. A tool by which God's intentioners are expressed. If we are available to be, to be expressed that way. Yeah, well, and I, we have some resonance. I, I, I'm a Christian, I, I think that the clearest lens that's been afforded to us in that space is Christ and his life and sacrifice, and like last year, my word of the year was surrender, because obedience is harder for me than surrender is. Yeah. Obedience is like, especially coming out of mandates and, you know. Et cetera, et cetera, like obedience was like a dirty word, whereas surrender is like, no, to a higher power, to the divine, whatever your conception of the divine is. And what is it about Christ that is important for, as far as that for you? Um, I think the biggest single thing is it's not earned. You know, most of the historic, whether they're monotheistic or, or Hindu or whatever, there's like, do these things and then God will be right with you, kind of. Whereas Christianity is not performative, you know, it's believe this and, you know, um, be, you know, love God above yourself and love your neighbor as your, you know, love God beyond everything else. Love this, love this force that tells you the right thing to say and the right thing to do if you're open to its leading. Yeah. It's the same thing. And love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah, that's pretty good shit right there, you know, because it includes that love yourself, right? So many of us don't even love yourself. So, so, you know, it's like C. S. Lewis said, Christ was either crazy person that thought he was the son of God, or he was the son of God. Well, he sure doesn't talk like a crazy person. And so that's kind of ultimately where it comes down for me, as well as You know, ultimately that prodding force that I got when I was exploring that, because I was a 27 year old agnostic still having explored Eastern things and Greek things, and, you know, kind of rejected Christianity because the Christians were bombing each other and being increasingly hypocritic. You know, and they still are, right? Like, there's a lot to dislike. You know, there's a lot of people that won't, you know, Except Christ because of the way Christians are. You know, and like, one of my friends said, you know, that one thing I know is that if somebody says, you can trust me, I'm a Christian, I cannot trust that person. You know, so I'm aware of the cynicism and the hypocrisy. And, you know, I think that messenger is, got the clearest lens to the, the divine. Nice. The divine. And I, and I don't, this is a controversial statement, I suppose, but like Christians will say, you know, Christ is the only way and, and Christ said that too, right? But I'm not one to really second guess God, like he can do what he wants. And even if he sent Jesus on a special mission, like it doesn't mean that he's going to like nail everybody else to the wall. It just doesn't feel right to me to be that. I don't think that force does that. Yeah, I can, I can, I can relate. I think that did get me kind of searching at it from the Catholicism track was, was just that, um, you know, there are so many human beings and so many different ways to see it. And I, I was so curious about it all. And, and I think, Um, I guess if I, like, one is the philosophical faith, but for me what's most important is unconditional love. And, so, am I Well, and who's the greatest Absolutely, so that's You know, advocate of that in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I can really connect with that. That proponent of really love without conditions, meaning Love your enemies even. Meaning people don't need to be any other way than they are Yeah. In order for love to be present. Yeah. So for me, um, uh, This is a, it's a, I think that the most important thing that the world needs is the ability or the willingness to see another, any human being of any faith, any background, As the same light that's shining from behind my eyes is shining in behind your eyes. 100 percent agree. That's what we need. Yeah. More than any other thing. And I think that is a Christian message. And I think, and that's one I can relate to personally. And I do aspire to that and every interaction. And man, it's tough when you're like running a business and you're dealing with stress and you're dealing with, you know, conflicts. And it's, it really is a great. of being alive, I think. I love the, like at Loco Think Tank we have a number of things that we've done to, to just address the ethical challenges that are real. Uh, one of them is how we add new members. So we, you, you typically, you'll interview with me first because I met you somewhere. I've been hunting smart business people around the region, right? And if you pass my smell test and you want to be in a group, we figure out which group is the best fit. And then you go meet with that facilitator. And once you've met with that facilitator, you're And if you think they're cool, and they think you're cool, then they can invite you to visit the group. But both me and the facilitator will make more money if we have another member in this group. So we've got an inherent conflict of interest, but the goal is to make the group stronger and more Useful. So every existing member gets a veto on every new member trying to come in, because that's just kind of the right way to do it. Yeah. Like, otherwise there's a conflict like, and so I want the group to own the group. And that's, that's one of the phrases we use is that the chapter owns the chapter. You know, if we replaced the facilitator, somebody retires and we have to find a new one, well, you can introduce us to a candidate, but the group gets to decide if this person is up to the muster. Yeah, that's great. You know, and those questions. About how to make ethical decisions inside of a company. Like for instance, letting somebody go of a company is even more Totally, you know, because you are relating to the human being as a human being, right? And also relating to the business as itself. Right? You're a steward of the business. You, you are. That's part of how we're valuable. As you know, we charge 400 bucks a month for our mid-size business chapter. You know, it's pretty affordable, but it's still five grand a year, right? But. Like, we'll help you send that employee home two months before you might have otherwise because you're just too emotionally invested to make the right decision, even though we can see clearly that this is never going to work. As you described the situation, it's never going to work. You know, and so, oh, boom, I, I removed this clip. challenging situation months earlier than I otherwise would have. Oh, well, that covers my local think tank dues for the year. Yes, exactly. That's, and that's smart, you know, that's smart leadership. That's very important to be able to recognize that and act swiftly. And, um, And it's not easy because we get emotionally invested with these people, even in your big corporate environments, those teams, those people, there's relationships there. Oh, yeah. I want to go to politics, but I'm squirming because I gotta go pee. Okay. So we'll take a short break. All right. Fort Collins? Yeah. Yeah. It's pushing 200 maybe now or whatever, but. That's nice. There's still, you know, when I go out to dinner with Jill, she's like, who is that? Who is that? You know, sometimes it's like probably an average of 2. 4 people per restaurant. Uh huh. I know already. Yeah. She doesn't live the same life. Uh huh. Um, let's move to politics. Okay. Tell me about politics. Uh, well, Texas. Like, when I think about politics in Texas right now, I think about borders. Is there, like, a bunch of illegal immigrants in Austin and stuff, or is it too high of a rent district for that, or? You know, I don't, I don't notice anything. You don't notice it? Yeah. Um, I think, I think that one thing that has happened in, in Austin in the last few years is that it's been. I think much more relevant as far as really the immediate living is just the issue of homelessness. Right. In Austin. Um, there was a few years ago a lift on a ban on camping in the streets. So a lot of people came. Right, they were just camping in Austin. Yeah. And then, Another law that's passed that made that illegal, but there's just, I think, been a continued influx and, and that's, that's something that is so paradoxical and really near to my heart and I don't know what the solution is. I think it's a, it's an incredibly complex challenge and, um, I think that there are many, many factors that go into why this is happening, but I'm not sure there's a solution, you know, the solutions are being found. Um, So that's something that's been very relevant as far as the politics in Austin. That's one of the interesting things is that these, especially cities that Have really invested in supporting the homelessness thing. Well now they're just Millions of dollars in the hole and they have more homeless. Yes. Yeah, so you're like making the problem worse by investing in it Kind of it's been a really strange Situation because I think it's also turned people off to some of the ideas of how to how to help. Sure Causes and you look at cities on the west coast especially that have been really really inundated, and I think a lot of people in Austin are Like, shit are we going away of San Francisco? We don't want to do that, so. Right. You know, I think that. And that starts with kind of Henry Ford, right? Like, whether you think you can or think you can't, you're correct. And most homeless people just don't. It seems like they think they can or choose not to try to break out of this lifestyle because it's more better than some of our treadmill races that Americans are running on. Anyway, like I go camping, it's not that bad. My observation is that it, uh, Is it hopelessness? It's um, Mental illness. And I think that's a very big deal. I was, I was riding in a cab and not a cab, an uber in San Diego, and there was a woman who was, and this was one of the coolest ideas I've, I've heard of, of an attempt to address some of this. And, and I, you know, I, I don't know what you think about it, but she has two schizophrenic sons. And I had just been staying in Ocean Beach in San Diego and Ocean Beach is a, is a really cool place. But it is, it was one of the most overrun, concentrated homeless situation. Yeah, it was. And really, people were really whacked out, I think, on, on some new versions of crystal meth that was coming out. And she was telling me about that after I'd been there and she told me all about that. She has two schizophrenic sons and one has been on his medication and has been able to get resources inside the institution. The other said, I don't want to be on this, those medications. I'd rather. Beyond crystal meth, basically. And, um, be homeless. And I think that, uh, because for him, it's better than dealing with the voices in his head. And that's what I think is going on for a lot of people in these places is they're, they're, they're not able to function and they have mental illness. Right. They're not really homeless. They're just Broken. They're broken in some way. And they don't, they don't have the resources or access or don't want to participate in that particular system. So her idea, which I thought was cool, at least like just thinking differently was what if in the same way that we have jury duty, we had a civic engagement where as part of being a taxpayer, you're spending A week, two weeks in mental health institution where you're actually supporting and addressing the fact that these people are mentally ill. Interesting. What would that do to how we thought about who these homeless people are instead of thinking of them as separate. We are sort of having a civic responsibility not to address homelessness, but to address the mental illness and the support around the mental illness. And to me, it's those kinds of solutions. If we're going to go into politics, I only want to hear those kinds of solutions. What is it that might actually shift the system of how we think, not just blame the government or blame, you know, blame people. I'm from Jamestown, North Dakota, which is where the state hospital of North Dakota is. And actually my mom's brother was basically institutionalized from his early twenties. through death a couple years ago. Um, and my mom has had a paranoid schizophrenic break as well. And maybe I'll get one someday too. Um, but, and, um, and so I'm, frankly, I'm kind of Glad for that element of my family because it gives me a perspective and awareness of the challenge Yeah of mental illness because it's it's wacky when you see it happen, right? It's really strange And don't we have a whole bunch of people that aren't qualified to engage in that conversation not to challenge your idea but what if What if we thought differently about it, you know, like it's not about, I'm not, I don't, this is not my idea. It was more like, yeah, but what if that was built into how we just related to it as we were, we were all just being the same way that we're all participating in the jury system, which is basically us saying who we think should go to jail, you know, like that's a particular, that's, that could be seen as strange in another world that you might live in. Like you just have everybody go in and decide who should go to jail. Are they qualified to decide about that person's future? I don't know. You know, I mean, anyone can be on that jury and their biases and their lack of qualifications, they're not lawyers, they're not judges. So, you know, when you, yeah. Peer support ultimately, like in the same way that, that. There are, you know, I'm, I'm pretty intentional to like only bring people into local think tank that can bring something to the sauce, but ultimately they're all flawed little critters running around with their own blind spots and fears and insecurities and super talents that they might even not even recognize. Yeah. And it's in some, it's in collective, you know, we're collective beings and it's, it's living. In a way where we care about each other and connect with each other, I think is a solution to, to political issues that are far, far greater than, um, you know, these ideas we have about it's gonna be, which president it is. I, I think it has to do with, with really, really challenging Yeah. How do connect with another, how to connect. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. So, um, I wanna drift to a, another current event, um, that's been in my mind just lately is, uh, Tucker Carlson. Have you seen what's going on this week with Tucker? Not this week. No. Uh, he's has interviewed Vladimir Putin, uh, and his interview with Vladimir will be coming out tomorrow evening, uh, primetime on Twitter. And like basically people, Europe is basically calling to sanction or ban him from traveling to Europe because he's apparently an asset of Russia by doing an interview. And, uh, and there's a lot of, so my question to you is like, is that a good thing, uh, for someone like Tucker, independent journalist to be willing to engage in the, with the bad guys in this situation? Um, I think it's always a good thing when people are interacting and engaging and actually asking questions. I always think that's a good thing. I don't know about Tucker Carlson and Vladimir Putin specifically. I don't know if If that makes sense that he would be, I was hoping it was going to be Lex Freedman. Yeah, right. He actually has a better, he's got an amazing ability to do that. That would be a great example of somebody who absolutely should be doing. Well, he's a Russian Ukrainian, right? And he, and he has, oh, he's from Austin too. If you can get me on Lex's show, I would love to be on his show, by the way. I'll go five hours with that motherfucker. I, I, I. I have not met Lex. Well, if you do, give him my card. I'm gonna send you with a couple extra sporks, too, if you give Lex a couple sporks for me. Cool. I'll give Lex the sporks. Tell him Kurt Baer sporks. Cause I, cause he does some five, six hour interviews sometimes with fascinating people and I'm not that interested, but, like, that's a big, like, that's a two, and I'd be excited about it. Well, you know, he's got that value of curiosity. Right. Fair. And I think, and he has done examples of going and, and, uh, uh, interviewing. Uh, controversial figures, government leaders in the Middle East. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we got in that. The idea that he would be, that that would be challenged does seem strange to me. Like, it seems important that people are going out and listening. Yeah. Tucker's a little more controversial than Lex is. Frankly, Lex would probably get away with it easier. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that might just also be part of, um, you know, some of the media hype around Tucker Carlson. Right. Well, and Lex is kind of a robot fence rider kind of guy, like. Well, I mean, he's a fence rider. He's a, he's curious. Yeah. He's curious. Yeah. Well, and that's one thing about. Actually, he's probably a brown type too. One thing about brown types is they don't really They don't have, like, those fiery opinions about things. They're curious, and I might not have enough information yet to know how I feel about this. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I, this is, this is such an interesting, kind of, not interesting, but it's such a, like, dilemma, or paradox of, of Of just this kind of dialectic, you know, being able to talk about these with considering multiple points of view, um, my experience is working with companies who are dealing with very adaptive, complex challenges and the way that you address those complex challenges as a leader inside of those companies is your ability to hold an executive point of view. So a CEO who can't Who get up on the balcony to address it. Don't let your lizard brain get involved. So don't get your lizard brain. And, and that's what works. And the, and, um, you know, there's other much more authoritarian ways of dealing, of being. Right, right. But what I've seen and what, Yeah. And so what seems to show is those leaders who are able to consider, consider, expand what they're willing to take into account and expand the points of view or the ones who are able to lead those and have thriving cultures. Yeah. You know, where people aren't burned out stress and dying because of the overwork, but they're actually thriving. Those are the ones leaders who work. So to me, my opinion is adaptive leadership is a more strong and powerful form of leadership in this future that we're living in. Right. it. We are not living in the same history. Right. You know, things are changing. Yeah, you can't have this kind of a fixed hierarchical leadership thing with limited inputs from the front lines. Yeah. That ain't gonna work. It's not, it's not happening. And, and so, my strong conviction is that polarization is It is an evolutionary limit, and if you, that if you are identifying with a polarized point of view, you yourself have yet to actually expand to include something that you can't see yet. Yeah, yeah. And that to me is, we want to evolve, not Yeah, yeah. It's not about being right, it's about evolving as a species and evolving as a society, and I am very convicted of that. And I, I feel very strongly about it. It's just that there isn't an argument about that. It's really about no, because if you say that you don't believe that polarization is not going to lead us into a new direction. I do have very strong convictions and opinions about that. And I think it just because there's those of us who are like more, more have more proclivity towards that kind of thinking. Well, those of us who think like that have to be leaders ourselves, have to represent it. And we have to emulate those leaders who've gone in the past, whose primary value was unconditional love. And to me, Jesus would not be telling other people, I agree with you. I disagree with you. He would be looking in your eyes and he would be saying, I see you as God. I am love. And that to me is what we need in our world. And the kind of getting lost in this, us versus them is. It's a byproduct of the old way. And so, I have strong opinions, it's just Who, uh, who's your guy for president for 2024? Well, yeah. Okay. Alright. I'm not I don't know that I have a lot of confidence in Um, what we're seeing presented to us right now, I'll say that you don't think Biden Trump are the most qualified people. I think that's what I'll say. I think I'm, I'm struggling with just vote for RFK then like, like give a message to the, to the two major, to the unit party. frankly, the, the, the, the dictatorship with two parties that we have right now. Absolutely. And here's what I think. I think that the, the thing that was really has been undervalued is that RFK and Marianne Williamson has been so shut out. And it doesn't matter what you think about either of them. They were representing independent thought and they're representing things. Both of them, I listened to, and I think, I don't have to agree with certain aspects of what they're saying, but they are saying things that are really important to hear that they need a platform because the system isn't really representing some of the things they're saying that are really important. And so, yeah, I mean, I would, I've always been maybe more of an independent minded person. I voted for independent candidates in the past. I voted for Bureau with my first vote, and pretty much, I voted for Kanye with my last presidential ballot. Kanye! One out of 451 people in Leverett County. You really did that. I thought it was the best protest vote, like, I was like, I don't want this. Fuck off. I don't want either of these boneheads to be my president, and now it's four years later and it's obvious they're both boneheads still. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of in that and it's, it's confusing. Like what, what's supposed to happen with that? And, and Well, it's obvious the corruption is deep in the machine. Mm. Like if those are the, out, like there's, I forget who it is. Some podcast I listen to is like, uh, a system is designed to, to create the outcomes that happen. Mm. Well, if, if these are the outcomes that happen, well then it's obvious that our system has blight. Yeah. You know, to use an old farm term. Yeah. It's not creating good crop. Well, it's creating a, a, a rotten. Crap. Absolutely. I, I, I think, I, I also, you know, I think we're in a funny, you know, we're in a funny time and it's, I, I can't predict the future and I don't think anyone can predict the future, but I do think that there, there is something else happening and, um. The swamp is real? Well, no, I think, no, I don't mean, I don't mean that something else like, there's a nefarious, a nefarious, I'm not saying nefarious, um. Just mythologically there's all there's been a lot and this is you know, we're getting off politics, but just mythologically there's there's a lot of ideas and Various mythologies that there is a time of social change that we just kind of go through paradigm shifts Yeah, and that's happened historically we go through social paradigm shifts and the paradigm shift Will always look from the inside of the shift and from the old way. It'll look like things are falling apart It's catastrophic. It's literally catastrophe It is the old way is dissolving and you're optimistic that the new way has more of this Jesus like love and appreciation for one another and seeing each other as one race human. I am optimistic I am optimistic and I maybe it's just because Um, I want to confirm my bias and I want to live that way and I want to be the kind of person who can understand why someone would vote for Donald Trump. I want to be the kind of person that I can understand why someone would vote for Joe Biden, why they would vote for Robert Kennedy, why they would vote for Marianne Williamson, why they would vote for Kanye. You know, and really, and really, And that it's not my job to make it happen. Yeah. But that there's enough people like me who are listening to their higher calling and who are willing to put aside their negativity biases, their past projections, and to live in a spirit of optimism and say, I represent that and I'm called to do what my part is. And if everybody who's called to do their part. If I just listen. If I listen. If everybody listens. And we all do it. It can emerge. And that's what I stand for, and like, who wins this presidency? Yeah, it's going to be difficult, it's going to be a lot of, a lot of stuff. A lot of shit no matter what. It's going to be a lot of shit. But that doesn't mean that it's, it's going to be dastardly and doomsday. Then you don't need to eat that poop. We don't, we don't need to like, get caught in caught up in it. Yes. This is my, uh, uh, I wanted to mention, this is my Support Ukraine shirt. It's got the blue and yellow check. It's the least I could do, which is basically how much I want to do. As an American taxpayer. Glad you wore the shirt. That's good. That's good that you wore the shirt. Sorry, Vladimir, but I'm kind of over it. Um, and I'm excited to hear what people don't know is that, like, America kind of pushed this war on Putin. Like, he might have been the one that invaded, but we're the ones that moved NATO right up to his doorstep over the last 25 years, uh, and we're the ones that blew up Nord Stream. Duh. Yeah. And that's, like, Germany should be fucking pissed. Like, we're screwing their manufacturing sector. Their energy costs are literally almost triple what they were. Because we couldn't have them sucking on Russia's natural gas dick while we're trying to get Europe aligned to fight this war. Well, I, I At least that's what my prophet instincts say on that topic. I mean, very, very possible, I think. I, um, I, I worked in the oil and gas field when, when I was, I worked at a consultancy. Oh. Kind of. Along the way. Along, after the story goes, I, I worked at a consultancy, we worked primarily in oil and gas and, and it was really revealing just how influential that natural resource really is. Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And, um. Well, it's energy. It's labor. It's, it's, it's what makes, it's like, it's in this. Right. You know, it's in this cup. Not the water. It's in your shirt. It's in your microphone. Um. In this curtain right here. And, um, so. And, probably, we're, we're, we're. Changing the climate, but my my thing is is that like if we're gonna feed all these people We're gonna need more carbon dioxide to power the plants. They're gonna be necessary to feed the people. It's a so this is you know We used to call them the dilemma Wicked the wicked wicked problems. Yeah wicked problems Uh, because they have no clear, it's, it's, you know, one thing affects another thing. I mean, you know. You should watch Elon Musk's video from the other day if you haven't yet. He did like a 15 minute talk about the carbon problem, um, and he's advocating basically for a carbon tax, which I could get behind as long as there's no bureaucracy of substance. Like if there's 350 million people in the U. S., then everybody that pays taxes gets a fraction of that at the same rate or something like that. Like, that could be the foundation of their universal basic income, maybe. Mm hmm. Yeah, and there's a lot of interesting things about universal basic income that actually could It could create a more imaginary economy than we have even now with the fiat money. And it is imaginary. Well, I'm trying to not get too theoretical because I think that's where I want to go with this. When we start talking about complex systems, because, um, basically that's the idea of a system is when you pull one lever, the system. Well, and Rogan talks about this. I don't know if you listen to Rogan's podcast, but he's like, you know, I was actually a pretty big fan of universal basic income, and then I saw. Like what happened when they sent people checks for COVID money and like everybody quit their jobs and they're just playing video games and stuff. And I'm like, well, fuck, we're going to wreck our whole culture of work ethic if we do that. And you might, you might, but you might not, right. You know, like our work ethic is also built on. A bunch of causes and conditions of how leaders decided to do that. Yeah, exactly. So the idea that we wouldn't fundamentally alter our economic system also is strange to me because this is the product of, you know, this is an evolved economic system. But the idea that these other forces that not for, I don't want to say forces, this, these other, uh, adaptations, these other things, you know, Bitcoin, uh, uh, cryptocurrencies are going to be coming back. This isn't a fad. These aren't things that are just, you know, kind of popular for a little while. It's just that it's got a kind of like, uh, we have to socially understand how they're going to interact with each other. And I don't think that we can understand. The implications of what these technological revolutions really are doing any of us, you know, so, um, Sure. Well, even like, I mean, frankly, Facebook, bring the world together or create much more separate silos. Or being so divided. Right, right. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, it's very famous, very famous concept of the negativity bias. I think that we're all programmed to see uncertainty. There's a, a really cool experiment that's done where it's really simple. There was a, um, uh, it was like, You know, I brought some people into a room and they presented them with a neutral image and a graphic violent image. Right, right. And they see the neutral image, no response. They see the graphic image and there's all these, you know, the amygdala is firing. Right, right. Basically, you know, so that's natural, right? That's very natural. Right. But then, what's interesting is, then the second round of the experiment, they would show a circle before they show a circle. Uh, the neutral image and then they would show an X before they show the grotesque image. And then they'd show a question mark and the MRIs were showing that when people would see 75 percent of people, uh, inaccurately predicted that there was going to be more likely to be the negative, the grotesque card. When the question mark was shown, their MRIs were showing that their body was reacting as if they're looking at the grotesque image. Wow. That's what's going on right now. Right. Because we are living in uncertainty. What's next? And so our biological wiring has it that we are experiencing the uncertainty as this means bad. This is bad. So I really shouldn't think that Trump versus Biden is bad, I should just think that it's good. There's a, to go back to the Asian, to the, to the Eastern philosophy, philosophy, philosophy story, there's a farmer who was tilling the fields with his horse and, uh, the army came and took his son, uh, and, uh, said that they, uh, needed to take his son. And, uh, uh, the son broke his leg. Uh, so the story is the son broke his leg, chilling the field and everyone said, Oh, that's so bad. We're so sorry to hear that. And the farmer said, well, we'll see. And then the army came and they were going to take his son, but his leg was broken and they said, Oh, that's so great. They, they, he didn't take him. That's so great. Well, we'll see. And then there's another thing instance that happens that ends up being kind of like Oh, it's so bad for, for you. Yeah. Well, we'll see. And you know, it keeps going and there's just a way that that's also how life works. And so I believe that like we were talking about. I think the writer of the monkey's paw must've read that before. Is that it? The monkey's paw? Is that, that's like a story? Yeah, where like they grant a wish, uh, but then the wish comes true in like a terrible way that doesn't actually fix things. Uh huh. Like, oh, I wish we had a thousand, I wish we had a thousand pounds. Oh, sorry. Your son was killed in a factory accident. Here's your thousand pounds. Right, right. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, it's all like, it's all this perspective that we have and I think, I think that we're at neutral. So let's say we're at neutral in, in reality and what we're looking at and the systems that are unfolding and. Um, you know, when you are stuck inside of a negativity bias, as we've talked about, what you think creates that situation. And we're kind of collectively being reconditioned, conditioned, conditioned into this polarizing negativity bias that's going to have us create that, that we're looking at. So if So these, this uniparty that's creating this sense of this. Opposition this polarity Yes. Is actually probably destroying itself inadvertently in some ways it's, it's feeding or feeding into this negativity notion or whatever it's feeding. Yeah. And so I do believe, I mean, you know, since you've given me the soapbox here to in the podcast, I mean, I really believe that as individuals it is really important that we're really seeing that this is just a function of our biology. And as studies have shown, when you are also having an optimism bias. Hmm. Um, there's a famous study in 1968 that was conducted, totally unethical now, but basically they told a teacher that, uh, there were certain students in the class were high gifted and certain students in the class were low performing. And by the end of the year, guess who tested highest? It's the, it's the ones that the teacher was told were the highest performing students were testing higher than the low performing students because the teacher believed that they were high performing students and there was no reason for that. Oh, so she was just giving them higher grades than she was low ones? No, no. It was actually that she believed them to be higher performing. So they performed at higher levels than the others because the teacher expectation was acting in a way just like your UNC Chapel Hill absolutely and so like they were a bunch of losers when he got There and he saw them as high potential I mean you're a coach all you can see is someone's potential and if you can't see someone's potential and you're in a negativity bias You're getting you're caught in their negativity bias. You're gonna help create that person To be that way, you know, they're going to believe it. They're going to, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's called a Pygmalion effect. It's, it's, it is what you believe you act in the way that you believe and it creates that reality. And so in this wide open global circumstance, absolutely. There's terrible things happening, but we're sort of collectively being inundated in this, like, look at what's wrong. Look at all these other people. And as opposed to really getting that, it's a, you know, we're getting caught in this. And shifting to what do we want to create? What is, what am I creating? What am I creating in my communities? What am I creating in my city? What am I creating in my state? And like whatever influence we have. Well, and you're operating, it seems from a foundation of kind of extreme acceptance, even though you're working with CEOs, leadership teams and stuff. You're like. I'm here for you and you know, you're awesome. Yeah. Like I'm here to help you believe that you're awesome. Kind of, even though you've probably got all different kinds of clients as well. Yeah. You know, you've got blues and oranges and greens and whatever. Oh. And, and if I was having to work with them on a daily basis, I'd be feeling all the exact same challenges that other people have. It's just, it's a unique role that I get to sit in and I'm really getting to see them on the balcony, on the cat bird seat in a way, try to be objective and tool oriented from the start. And I think You know, I think what, you know, like a baseline, you know, a person is the way they are, and they are the way they're not. The world is the way it is. That was my blog last month was, uh, we are what we do. And it's. It's, it's not like it begins with, you know, it's not like acceptance means, Oh, well, there's bad things. Oh, well, I accept that it's really, really embracing that that's the way the reality is right now. And when I'm willing to look at it and open to it as it is right now. And not get believing that it has to be that way forever, then I can create something different. And that's what I, that's what this is all about. Being rational about the current state of affairs. The current state, about the facts of the current state of affairs. Getting caught in your interpretations and your biases. And your hope. And your, even your hope, yeah. To really welcome it as it is and as it is not. gives you power to rise above it and see something new. Yeah, I dig that. Let's jump on to the loco experience. Okay. Your crazy experience. Did you come up with one? I was trying to come up with one. You know, there was the, there's the crazy experiences. And I mean, you were a semi professional musician with like two groupies for a while. So you must've had some of that. Anyway, maybe groupies. I don't know. Anyway, I don't want to interrupt you. Well, I was thinking, I mean, you, the crazy, I think the craziest thing, um, I've done, I've done crazy things that I'm not going to share, but I think like when I really think about the craziest thing you can do, the craziest, like truly crazy thing, it sounds funny, but I think sitting in seven day long retreats in silence, actually, I experienced it. It's kind of anti crazy, but it's crazy. It's like the cr it's actually crazy. It's like when you, my experience of it is when I'm sitting. In silence for seven days. There is a point where your mind gets so loud that I have felt like I was literally just going crazy because you're really allowing that chatter, that negative self talk, that kind of worry, all that fear is not wanting to let go. And so for the, usually about day two, day three of these long meditation retreats. I've never done. There's nothing I could recommend. I would highly recommend it. But there is a point where it feels like you're confronting that you yourself are crazy because we were talking about mental illness earlier, I think it's by the grace of God that those of us who are not mentally ill are not mentally ill because when you pay attention to your mind, there's just a couple little buttons that need to get pushed to go from one to the next. Yeah, absolutely. And so to me, In order to have basic sanity, it has been important to sit and look at all the craziness. But it's crazy when you're, when you're sitting there for days at a time and your mind is getting louder and louder and louder and you're, you can't get, you know, you can't get out of your mind. Um, you know, I think that that, that is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think that's cool. You may, you're the first time somebody described one of those experiences to me and I've said to myself, I should go do that sometime. Highly recommend. I recommend it. And there's. There's great retreats for, uh, Christian meditation as well, which is worth doing. Well, uh, I do, I do yoga too. I'm a pretty, uh, yeah, whatever works. Um, well. The book, Be a Better Team by Friday, Justin Fallon. Thanks for being here at the Loco Experience. Have you enjoyed your time today? I've had a great time. Good. This was a lot of fun, and I appreciate the long form and the chance to explore a lot of different topics. Well, thanks for calling on your visit from Austin to Fort Collins here. Definitely. Thanks to Sean. Maybe we'll see you both together sometime in a future visit. Cool. Yeah, that'd be great. Alright, Godspeed. Alright, Kurt.