EXPERIENCE 15 | Darren Murphy of PUSH Industries - Riding a Lifelong Passion for BMX and Mountain Biking into an International Enterprise

Welcome to the LOCO Experience Podcast with LOCO Think Tank Founder Kurt Bear. Listen in as Kurt digs deep into the business and life stories of business owners and thought leaders at different stages of growth from all walks of life. Launching and growing anything can be a crazy experience, so expand your thinking and level up your understanding of what it takes to find success in the world of free enterprise. Welcome back to the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bear. I'm joined today by Darren Murphy and Darren is the founder and president of push industries based out of Loveland, Colorado. And Darren, why don't you just set the stage and tell our guests what you do? Yeah, so push industries where basically we make the world's most high performance mountain bike suspension. Yeah, so we're a manufacturer and it's kind of interesting who we are today is a little bit different than what we were when I started the company. But ultimately we're a technology company and we've adapted that technology to high performance mountain bike suspension and that's what we do. So what's the special technology in that rail, is it just slip your surfaces or better control on design? Yeah, I mean, it's a number of things, but I've always been a huge motor sports fan. So I grew up race cars, motorcycles, and a huge mountain bike or cyclists. And ultimately following other industries, I started while I actually worked in other industries and learned a lot of different technologies and started to adapt that to mountain bike suspension. And initially we were tuning brands, other brands of suspension using our own technologies. And today, you know, those technologies are developed into our own product. So we've got, yeah, I got my first patent actually two years ago, I think, my first issued patent two years ago. And yeah, we have three now, probably four more patent applications that we're going to be working on and outstanding. And yeah, all real tech geeky stuff for mountain bikes. Tell us about your team, like who's building the stuff and what's your team look like in Loveland? Yeah, so Loveland is headquarters for us. So that's sales, marketing, R&D, engineering, manufacturing. So everything's under one roof. So we're unique in our industry. You know, the bicycle industry is widely made up of teams here in the US that use Asian source, you know, manufacturing, engineering support, et cetera. But we're unique in the fact that in our industry, being a manufacturer, you know, having everything under one roof is really unusual. And so, yeah, so headquarters is in Loveland, that's where the whole group is. And then we have strong international distribution service centers as well, where we feed product out, which is huge. It's actually 50% of our business now is export, which is. And do you still do the custom tuning of other people's suspensions, or is it all your own stuff now? Yeah, we do not, you know, and it's kind of interesting because the company was built and established off of being that custom tuner. And once we started, once we came out with our first product, we realized really quickly that that was going to be the future. That was a self-sustaining, you know, option for us. And so the tuning business slowly went away, and it's been... Otherwise, you're just constantly trying to get new customers to do the tune. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a different dynamic because with the tuning business, it grew to a point where we relied on the manufacturer's support because we were buying so many parts and pieces. So we really relied on their support to grow our business or even sustain our business. And so any disruptions in their supply chain or any disruptions at their level, you know, we were a good customer, but they're still going to look after themselves first, you know. And so there's any disruptions that really impacted us a lot. And so this past year where I know bicycle manufacturers were overwhelmed with demand and things like that, had you been reliant upon their stuff? You probably wouldn't have got... Yeah. Wouldn't have had any fun. No, we would have been faced with the same challenges that many companies are in our industry where, yeah, they're relying on, you know, and that's the thing. When I started push, independent, what's called independent suspension tuning companies were not very common. In the US, there might have been one. And more of a service company than a tuning company globally, there was, you know, half a dozen maybe, whereas today, I mean, there's probably three or four just in Colorado alone and nationwide, you know, domestically, we have, you know, a hundred maybe. And so, yeah, all of those companies are, you know, heavily impacted by the supply chain issues that that came about because of COVID. Sure. Can we, I want to learn about Darren the person a little bit. So I want to jump in the way back and I know you came from California, but tell me about the third grade. Yeah. I mean, came, well, came from California, but originally came from Maine. Okay. Yeah. I was born on the East Coast, a northern Maine town called Milanoquit and it's way up there. That's a lot different than California. Very. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a very small town, Milanoquit, Maine. It was, when I was growing up, it was a paper mill town, you know, so a lot of those northern Maine towns were logging, you know, lots of logging, lots of paper. And so, yeah, I mean, my childhood was, was pretty good, you know, in reflection. It's like, wow, that was a pretty great opportunity, you know, 3,500 people, I think, was the size of the town. Everybody knew everybody and a lot of sense of self-reliance, I imagine, and things like that. Yeah. Real, you know, real safe environment, real family oriented, lots of outdoor activities, right? It was an outdoor act. Was that the mountain biking start for you? It was. Yeah. I mean, there was mountain biking didn't exist in that town. I was kind of the pioneer for that, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was a, it was a good experience. I grew up with lots of uncles, aunts, cousins, you know, lots of, lots of people, lots of friends, and yeah, a very unique place to grow up. Lots of heavy winter, which is. I'm from North Dakota. So, like, Maine and North Dakota have a pretty similar culture and, well, maybe not culture so much, but especially the weather. Yeah. And, you know, I get, it's interesting because I got, when I was kind of 11, 12 years old, I got involved in BMX racing or got introduced to BMX bikes and BMX racing. So I was kind of a stick and ball, you know, kid growing up, then got introduced to BMX racing and started reading BMX magazines and everything was based in California. So I can say that by the time I was 13 years old, you know, I was, my vision was, I'm going to go to California. And at the time, I didn't, you know, it's, it's like a dream, like daydream me about going to California. To ultimately have ended up there was, you know, kind of an interesting thing. So, talk to me about some of that journey, like, all the way through your high school years was in Maine, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So, I was living in a market and I struggled a bit. I was definitely a struggling teenager, you know, high school was, was a challenging time for me, barely scraped by graduating, actually, and thankfully I had, I had some teachers that were really supportive, like, really believe that I was more than what I was showing. You seem super smart. I've done okay, you know, and I think for me early on, so I was involved in Olympics of the Mind when I was quite young, I was really successful with that program, ended up going to the University of Michigan at a young age, you know, for Olympics of the Mind and was big into computer programming and mechanical stuff. My dad passed away when I was young, so when I was 12 years old, my dad passed away of cancer. And that was obviously difficult for a young child and that combined with, you know, I think for me, well I know now that I know kind of what my personality profile is, you know, it's like, I was really looking for high challenge and the, you know, school was, you know, it's almost like it kind of, it wasn't challenging enough for me. And at the same time, you know, just personally, you know, things were a little messed up. So, so yeah, high school for me was, was challenging. Kind of escaped school, escaped challenges into the BMX kind of dreaming world and racing world and stuff. And that was my escape. And like I said, fortunately, there's two teachers specifically that I, you want to shout out? Yeah. Well, yeah, Mr. Tinkam was one of them and Mrs. Martin was another. And they both, you know, they both saw what was going on and they, they knew that there was more there than, like I said, what I was showing. And so, yeah, they definitely went to the school and the guidance counselors and said, you know, if we don't graduate this kid, it's probably going to be a lot worse than if we do, you know. We really need to get him over that hurdle. So while he might not have, you know, the grades might not be in the position, you know, from the scorecard. Yeah. And we better, I think, I think he'll be okay if we can, I think it would be kind of devastating to him. You know, it's like he's on a path. He's at the fork in the road and you can go to different directions. So yeah, they really championed the cause along with some other people, but they were two teachers that, that really, you know, if I was having a bad day in class or something like that, we're very lenient, like you can just go do. Yeah. Well, you had been in these academic Olympics, or I want to figure out what you could. Yeah. Olympics of the mind. Yeah. I did academic Olympics. That was what was our region's equivalent thing. And so they knew you were sharp enough to learn and do stuff just that you got knocked off course a little bit by this passing. Yeah. And so, yeah. So I ultimately graduated high school from Stern's High School in Illinois at Maine and then was stuck wondering, you know, what's next? Like what? Now what are I going? I graduated at 17. So it was pretty young. So maturity wise, it was, you know, pretty young too. Like I was. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about what came next. Well, the next thing, you know, so yeah, I graduated high school and was kind of flailing a little bit. I had applied to university of Maine and kind of wanted to go as a mechanical engineering. Excuse me. Always, you know, I've always been a gadget, take stuff apart, put it together, thought that was kind of, I wanted to do something with cycling. I learned, you know, I wanted to be a bike racer throughout high school. Then I learned that that, you know, might not present itself as in the future. I didn't give you those gifts physically. Well, no, I did. It was really successful, but it was locally, right? So I was really successful as a local racer, but didn't have any contacts or networking. Like how do you, how do you get out of this small town and do this? And so even, even the idea of mechanical engineering was so that I could make bike stuff, you know? So everything was still hyper focused on, on bicycles. And for me, I didn't know what that was. And honestly, I was reading a mountain bike action magazine. And in the back of the magazine was an ad for a school called United Bicycle Institute, which is a mechanic school in Oregon. And I, at that time, there was no internet. So I, yeah, so I called them up, you know, there was a phone number. So I called and they mailed me a packet, you know, 10 days later, I get this MNL envelope, you know, handwritten. And inside was the packet describing the school. And I was, I was really excited about it and applied to that school and just said, I'm going to go become a bicycle mechanic and I'm going to open a bike shop, not understanding what that actually meant from a business perspective, but at least it was, it was feeding that bicycle need that I had and giving me a little bit of vision to the future of like, hey, this is, this is one point of view. Yeah. And it was really, it was, it was basically like a trade school, you know, it's really, it was a trade school for, um, being, becoming a professional bicycle. So they let you in, I guess. Yeah. So I, I applied and, um, it was what, February or March, uh, of that following year. So it would have graduated, you know, what may, um, 91 and so kind of 90 early 92, I flew to Oregon and spent three weeks there and, yeah, became a professional bike mechanic. Oh, it was a pretty quick course. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it was hyper focused on these are the things that you, you do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really, you know, I think it was really more, I don't know this, but it's almost like it was more of a place that shops sent employees, you know, kind of like, hey, you, you're already doing these things for us and we have X amount of training that we've been able to supply. But this is like a certificate, like a professional level training that you can go get. Whereas I was like, hey, no, this is, yeah, you've been wrenching on your own bikes and stuff like that. I imagine. Yeah. So you had them skills. Yeah. Mechanically, I, yeah, I was riding my bikes, working on my bikes. Um, there was a gentleman in a town, uh, John Raymond who, um, saw a need to give kids something to do. So he started up a small bike shop in town for BMX and he, uh, actually built a BMX track out at the old, uh, dump, you know, uh, so at the landfill, we had this cool BMX track that he set up. And so he would let me work night and day out of his, I loved, I hung out at the bike shop constantly and just, you know, would do anything I could, you know, anytime there's an opportunity to turn a ranch or work on something. And he afforded me that opportunity. He's a, you know, a very important person in my life, even to today. And yeah, it was awesome. He just, he just gave me, you know, again, it was another resource for me to just continue moving forward, I guess. So take us to the kind of next steps along that journey for you. This was back in Maine, I gather. Yeah. Yeah. So again, you know, kind of back in Maine, uh, went to Oregon and, uh, again through this, uh, gentlemen, John Raymond in town, uh, who worked at the paper mill. His, you know, real job was paper mill. The bike shop was just on the side, um, one of his childhood friends had, um, come up for Thanksgiving, uh, one year. And I got introduced to him, uh, skydug day. And so John introduced us because Doug was a big bicycle racer who's living in Connecticut and I think it was a civil engineer or something like that by day and amateur bike racer, you know, bike on the weekends. And he had a friend that was starting a bike shop in Connecticut and a guy that worked at Cannondale bicycles that was leaving Cannondale with kind of their support and starting a bike shop. So we got connected and, um, with me finishing a mechanic school, this guy ricks just said, hey, you know, when you're done, come work for me. And that's what ended up happening. And so I literally got back from Oregon and packed up the car. So I was, you know, I don't know exactly, but it seemed like a couple of weeks. Maybe I was home after coming back from UBI. And I packed up and moved to Connecticut and, uh, that was a, that was a big deal. I'm sure because you were 18 yet, right? Or something. Yeah. Yeah. I was 18 years old and this was going to be my first real job. I had a job at the grocery store in high school, um, but for a kid from Maine, it was pretty intimidating. Yeah. Well, that's, it seems like you share that kind of cultural component where, like, people from North Dakota really don't think they can compete in the real world. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it was, there was definitely a big part of that because there's just so much that I hadn't been exposed to, right? Because of location, you know, we didn't have, uh, big malls or stores or restaurants. Or, you know, like the city life, so to speak, right? Sure. So to move to Monroe, Connecticut, uh, was, was a pretty big deal. So was this bike store like brand new? Did you get to really be involved with seeing that come to life? Yeah. I mean, when I moved to Connecticut, I started by, um, sleeping on Rick's couch. He and his wife let me sleep on the couch while I kind of sorted out a place to live. And, um, yeah, we went into an empty building. So he had secured a retail spot, but, um, I mean, as far as like building counters and putting, you know, furniture together and all that stuff, it was from the ground up. So it was a intoxicating experience for me at the time because this thing is all new. And there's, there's a little bit of a road map, but not really. So it's like, wow, what an exciting time. Yeah. And it was, I had no friends or anything outside of Rick and his wife. And so to have that much work in front of me was actually great. So working 18 hours a day, you know, whatever. This is, I mean, what else do I have to do? Well, my blessings at them, you were, you were like easy, but like go take care of it there. Yeah. So that was, uh, that was awesome. And it was, it was a cool experience, um, Ricky had a partner at a time and they had a store in Massachusetts. That was a few hours away and just seeing the interactions and inventory and kind of how that, how you initially kind of put together a retail environment, um, and having a bit of understanding of what that looked like was pretty cool. That was my, where I want to go next is, uh, you had a love for bikes before this, but did you know about business? Had you been exposed to business kind of, or was that really where the seeds of love for passion for business started? Um, I wouldn't even say, well, first off, I definitely didn't have any exposure to business. I was, I was a mechanical guy, right? That was, that was my thing. Um, and I found the business interesting at the time, but not interesting to the point where I had any kind of entrepreneurial spirit, you know, it was, it was, it was interesting because it was new, but not interesting in a way that, that made me go, oh, yeah, I, I want to, that's what I want to do someday. And so I, so those early years, um, being an entrepreneur was not on my radar. You know, I, I was like building things and, you know, creating things and working on things. That's, that's my wheelhouse. I'm really comfortable there. Yeah. Yeah. The bicycle business was what allowed you to build things and work on things and take them apart and put them back together. Yeah. And so after the store was built and operating, you know, I kind of was the head mechanic. And the day to day of the business operations, I, I wasn't aware of it at all, you know, like I was selling things because I've always been a people person. And so whether it was selling service or selling components or helping sell helmets or whatever, bikes even, I was involved in that, but I wasn't paying attention to, you know, like dollars revenue. I wasn't, wasn't even, like I said, on my radar at all. Okay. So how long does this role continue for then? So I was there. Um, I was there a total of, uh, four years, I guess three, three and a half, four years. Okay. You know, about halfway into that, so about two years in mountain bike suspension was getting really big and, uh, there was a company called Marzochi suspension out of, based out of Italy, they had an office in California. And I'd met a couple of the guys, um, because Marzochi had a, um, a team van and kind of tech support that went all around the country. And I was doing amateur racing while working at the shop. That was a nice thing about working at the shop too is, uh, I got to train a lot, get to ride a lot and the local mountain bike racing was really big. So it was great to have this camaraderie of friends that I developed in racing bikes. And so for the big nationals, this was back when, um, mountain bike racing in the US was really, you know, it was a big dollar. Can you circle us a little bit? What year? So this, yeah. So this would have been, um, early, early to mid 90s. So this is 92, 93, 94. And mountain bike racing paid well, you know, like you could, you could get paid mountain bike racing, there was big sponsors involved. And, um, so Marzochi would come out to the big races with their team truck and a lot of stuff. And I got to befriend some of those guys and, um, was selling their product was really, uh, to be honest, I don't even know how it even started like the, the relationship with them or with, with me selling their product, but through our store, it was a product that I used. And so I sold it like a lot of, like a lot of people, right? Yeah. You sell it because you use it. The guy that you sold it to wins race, yeah, you sell it a couple more, right, right? And so, uh, so I was involved in Marzochi and I struck a deal with them to, uh, do, to be a service center at the same time. And so because if you were on these coast, you had to send it to California to have it serviced or repaired and the shipping time and logistics, it wasn't as easy as it was today, right? Today, you can just FedEx kinkos or whatever and get something wherever you want. Back there was back then, it was a little bit different and servicing looks like put new o-rings in or things like that, bit, something bent or this or that. Yeah, you get a leaky fork seal, you know, you get some dirt mud in there and it makes it start leaking oil. And so I struck a deal with them to, uh, become a service center on these coast. And that was, that worked out really well. And after about a year and a half of doing that, we were quite successful and the general manager of the company said, hey, there's this big trade show called Innerbike, which happens every year. It's the biggest show in the U.S. We'd like to have you come out. So you can share your experience with other retailers. It's a retailer show. And so I was like, yeah, that, that sounds great. So they paid, you know, they're like, hey, come on out, spend a few days inside it. You got to sell a bunch of shocks for us and tell the story, right? Right. And at the time, I didn't realize that. I'm just like, cool. I get to go to California. Yeah. Of course. And they're like, yeah, it's a great angle. So, so I did. So they flew me out in the show that year was in Anaheim. And yeah, it was awesome. I was in Southern California in Anaheim and go into the show and just talking to their retailer, networking, explaining what was successful for us and how we were doing it and just getting people stoked on the product. And after that, that's that weekend or kind of week, I should say, is when Jim Mayhan, the general manager at the time, kind of floated the idea of, you ever thought about, you know, moving to California and coming to work for us. And that started that discussion and honestly, it was within a few months. Right. You're like, there might be a door opening here and I like the climate down there in the bikes. Yeah, it was cool. And so I went back to Connecticut and we kind of started those conversations and they got serious real quick. And again, for me, that was pretty intimidating, right? Because the move from Maine to Connecticut was a big one and kind of getting exposed to life in Connecticut and even New York and then traveling around to races and stuff. Well, you're like 22 or something right now, right? Or is still really young. And yeah, I was in the next step of like packing everything you have because my family was still in these coasts. So even for, you know, whether it was Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, I was driving home and still visiting friends. You know, my friends were coming home from college and we were all kind of meeting up back in Mill and Ocket and sharing our life stories. The idea of going to California, well, now I have to start over again. I don't know anyone. Maybe come home for Christmas, maybe every other year. Yeah, it come. The challenge is much greater. And so yeah, it was another pretty big, you know, pretty big step for me. But ultimately that's what I did is I left the shop and took a full time position at Marzochi in Valencia, California, which is Northern North of LA. Doing what? Like teaching people how to do what you've been doing for them or different than that? It was a technical position. So again, it was working in their service department in-house. So it was in-house service and then they needed someone kind of an ambassador and technical person to go to all their races. So someone to work out of the tech van. So then you're kind of communicating and being an ambassador, kind of salesperson to the public and also supporting their professional racers because again, they were paying riders, you know, that was, they were paying good money to European teams that were flying over here to do races. And so they needed to have, if any support was necessary, you know, you had to support. Make it work. Yeah. And so yeah, I became a technician in-house during the off season and during the on season, I was the fly away guy. So I was going to all the Northern Nationals and even some World Cups in Europe and helping support the product and kind of be a brand ambassador. How cool. And you were racing too, I trust, but not at a elite level, necessarily? No, never, never turned elite amateur racing and it was fun. You know, I did it. I'm a competitive person, right? Yeah. Sure, you could still beat me on any race. I don't know. Okay. Yes, you could. I could clarify that. Yeah, but it was, yeah, so it was great, right? Because I'm mechanically inclined and had a job working with my hands full time, working with professional, you know, at the top level, athletes, which was really- Right. Which was- You're heroes, right? Yeah. So it was, you know, all the things I had read about, all of the stuff I had seen in the magazines for all those years, now that was my life, you know, like I was, that was what I was doing. I was even in magazines at the time, which was, yeah, I mean, within, I don't know, maybe six months of working at Marzochi, mountain bike action, oddly enough, needed a cover shot. They wanted kind of to show like a technical cover shot, and so I was on the cover of mountain bike action within a few months of working at Marzochi, so that just exploded. Yeah. How honored are you to be working there, right? I was just like, wow, this is the cool- like I'm on the cover. And back then, you know, again, magazines were huge, and so when you went into a grocery store and you're on the cover of magazines, like, whoa, that's, that's amazing, you know, like, yeah. Right. I've got a motorcycle guy, actually, and I was in my basement the other day, and I saw that, you know, I've got like 16 years of cycle world magazine in a box, you know, I got to throw those away, they're priceless. Yeah. Well, today, you know, like, today's day and age with all the screen time, it's actually nice to pick up. Right. I really enjoy picking up a really good quality magazine. There's still some companies that do great magazines. Yeah. Yeah. Working at Marzochi for a while, and living the California dream in, I see you're wearing a ring, are you falling in love in these days, or anything yet? No. Not yet. No. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm falling in love. Yeah. Falling in love on a weekly basis. California was, yeah, I always tell people, you know, Southern California for me was really great when I was single and had a good job. A change when I got married, and then once I had kids, it was like, yeah, we need to do something different. I don't want my kids to be raised in this environment like I was. Yeah. But, you know, I worked at Marzochi, and I'm also a big motorcycle guy. So there was a company called Ibok Springs in Irvine, California. So that's Southern California in Orange County. And they were looking for someone, they, they were the leading company for cars. So when it comes to automotive suspension, Springs, sway bars, Ibok dominated globally, huge global company. And they were looking, they had been approached by a lot of mountain bike guys and motorcycle guys. And they were doing some motorcycle and mountain bike work, but they didn't have a specialist in house that knew the like, like really knew the vehicles, the business, you know, new one thing. They got designers and engineers, but what do they really want to design? Yeah. Those people didn't, they didn't have someone in house that knew what a Honda CR was versus a Kawasaki KX motorcycle, you know, and so they really needed someone who knew the languages. And somehow my name had gotten floated and they met me at a race. They just came up to me randomly at a race and just asked if I would be willing to talk when I was back in California at some time. And this was I was over in Europe at the time, oddly enough. And I grew up to you from afar. Yeah. And so they said, here's, you know, here's a card and some people in California that you can reach out to, we'd like to talk to you. And at the time, I didn't know what to expect, but I made the phone call and set up an appointment and drove down to Ibok when I was back in California at the time and met with the staff there. And, you know, I walk into this building, state of the art, hyper secure, massive conference to, I mean, just, you know, the typical like big global corporation style, beautiful engineering departments, pristine, you know, eat off the floors type of thing and I was like, whoa, this is a, this is a whole, yeah, this is a whole different level and interviewed with them. And yeah, I got real excited real quick. It was something where we just kind of jelled from that first appointment. And yeah, I mean, again, within weeks, I had accepted a position and moved down from, from Valencia down to Orange County. Yeah. Well, we all want good jobs, right? But you could see probably an opportunity to make a real big difference for their organization too. Yeah. You know, now I can see how you can view it like that, but at the time, it was money, right? I was a young kid. Right. If I'm being totally honest. That's what we like around here. Yeah. If I'm being totally honest at the time, it was, it was, I was intrigued by their facility. It was so impressive, so professional. So, and again, being a kid that grew up watching factory Honda and watching McLaren Formula One on TV and a lot of stuff, the idea of this is, this is that type of, this is that level. That was really interesting and they offered me a big chunk of money. I think they knew that was how they could secure me really easily, right? Because for me at the time, it seemed like a lot of money and looking back, I know for them. It was really nothing other than, let's just cut to the chase and let's just make them on part of the team. Yeah. Yeah. If we like them, then we'll just get them in here. And so, yeah, so that's what I did and that was, that was a reasoning behind it to be honest. Fair enough. Fair enough. You don't have to have sweaty hands about that. It's okay. Especially time of life, right? Yeah. That's the next stage. Yeah. And that's a part of it is, as I was a scrappy, scrappy young guy, right? Because all of these experiences were so new to me and I was just trying to take advantage of anything I could, you know, and I had interest in, you know, I've always had an interest at top level, you know, like technology or performance or racing, you know, it's always been an interest. So any time I could take a step closer to being in that environment, oh yeah, sign me up. Yeah, yeah. I like it. So work at iBock for a season, I imagine I want to not take the whole life story down, but also get to the entrepreneurial journey and the spark of that. So the entrepreneurial starts there. Okay. It was real quick actually because I had been introduced to somebody we needed to create a product catalog for the motorcycle division. And someone in iBock had introduced me to a marketing firm that kind of specialized in that motor sport, that motorcycle space. And so I met with these, the creative team and kind of talked to him about what we wanted to do and we started creating this motorcycle magazine. And one of the owners of the agency approached me about this side project that they were looking to do, this company, they were looking to buy. So there was a bicycle company that they wanted to buy and kind of revamp because the company was just kind of kind of flat and the owner was, it's almost like the owner was looking to get out or something. Yeah. And so they were looking to buy it. They wanted to buy it and kind of take it to the next level. And so we started talking about that because they were marketing sales and marketing guys that didn't have any technical background. Right. They don't know a lot of the jargon and what not. So it's like, hey, how can we design the next generation of bike and I was going to be that guy. And so I started talking about it and that's where my entrepreneurial start was because I decided, yeah, I'm going to leave this great job I have and I'm going to go start, you know, I'm going to go with these guys to start up with these marketing dudes. Yeah. And which it turned out that they weren't able to secure that company. And so we pivoted and started a new company from scratch, which was even crazier. Right. And harder probably. Yeah, much. And so that's, that's what happened. And so what was that? That was a company called Chuck Bikes. Okay. So Chuck Bikes was an interesting and bumpy ride. Were you a partner in this venture? Yeah. Okay. So there's three of us. So two guys from the marketing agency and myself. And I actually, my wife and I moved to Lake Arrowhead, California, which was some people might be more familiar with Big Bear, just down from Big Bear. So we moved into the mountains. Well, so you fell in love and got married in the meantime somewhere. Oh, yeah. So I should say, yeah, I mean, at the time, yeah, when I was at Ibok, I met my current wife. So yeah, we were dating at the time and I, we were not married yet. Hopefully, I got that right. Yeah. So still forgive you anyway. Right. Right. Right. So yeah. So my wife or girlfriend at the time, anyway, we moved to Lake Arrowhead, you were committed enough. Yeah. Yeah. This this adventure with Chuck Bikes started looking like a really bad idea at some point. Right. So yeah, we were, so we moved to Lake Arrowhead and we were, we started this bike company and fortunately had really, we had decent success right out of the gate. On the market, you know, the marketing, it just shows you how strong marketing is, right? These guys were really good at marketing. And so from a branding and trade show and magazines, they made us look much bigger than we, you know, we're three people and it made it look like there was a powerhouse behind us. And so yeah, that that went on. We had, we had a couple years of real strong success. Well, like outsourced manufacturing that you were designing bikes and then telling us Chuck Bikes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was making the bike. So it was about an hour and a half drive away. So yeah, we're outsourcing the bikes and then bringing them in, boxing them and the, even the first year we started, we got a distributor in the UK. And so yeah, we had kind of global presence right out of the gate as well, which was, which was really good. And yeah, it was, it was going really well. We were really excited. And ultimately, one of the partners did something shady and things, that's the rocky part. Things came apart. Yeah. Things came apart really quickly. And so that was, you know, that was a huge life lesson as well because I did, I did, I learned a little bit about the legal system in respects to, hey, I didn't do anything wrong. So. Yeah. It was reliable for this thing. Well, it wasn't even that. I was, I was, uh, well, we don't have to get into that 30 detail, but anyway, I came out the other side learning a lot about our legal system. And while I won, ultimately, it cost me far more money than had I just sat in my hands. The company was worth very little comparatively about the end of that. Yeah. Any picture of learning lessons from that time as far as like choosing partners or financial controls or anything like that, that they're appropriate to share? Um, no, I mean, again, you know, it's pretty, still young, pretty naive. And the only thing I learned out of that, I mean, the, the lesson I took away definitely was on the legal side. I learned that you can actually win and still lose a lot, you know, which was a weird concept. I thought, hey, I'm, I'm in the right. So I'm going to take this thing all the way to the end and win. But in doing so, the cost and expense and time and energy and strain it puts on your relationship and your household and everything else, it's not worth it, right? If had I settled, you know, I would have, it would have taken less time, energy. And you could have still known you were right. Yeah, exactly. You know, but again, it was that, it was that being young and bullheaded, you know, I'm going to win. No, I, I did nothing wrong. And so yeah, fair enough. Okay. So now this chapter is coming to an end, I imagine. Yeah. So that, that kind of closes that, that business up and myself and the other part. So it was three of us. One partner, you know, is the one that caused the chaos, myself and my other partner started another company. Okay. You know, because we, we had a good relationship and had a good go and, and had it not been for that other partner. We would have, you know, you're on your way. Yeah. Going to shout out to this partner. Yeah. His name is Dale Davis. Hey, Dale. And, uh, yeah, Dale and I, uh, had similar interest vision and we started another company called RCR. And it was a suspension related company that was making, uh, suspension upgrades. Okay. And circling me a little bit is, it feels like about the time when front suspension started becoming a real thing on mountain bikes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure, like, the Marzochi days, I joined Marzochi rate when mountain bike suspension really got hot. And so now for fast forward to RCR were four years ahead. And so now it's, it's mainstream, right? Every bike, you know, you, you can't have a performance mountain bike without it. Right. And so the idea of making upgrades for something that's already considered mainstream performance, you know, was a good. It kind of creates a market for that. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was a good business and we had, uh, at the time we had, um, the right product at the right time. Mm hmm. And, yeah, it, it, it was, it was good. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was pretty good, um, but again, you know, we, there was additional bumps because, uh, I can't really go into that one, but again, yeah, had, had some more, hard some more parts. What was that business model? That was a suspension. Suspension, suspension upgrades and eventually we did make a shock absorber. Okay. Uh, and we even had, we had some aftermarket, uh, sales and even a lot of OEM sales at the time. So a lot of bike companies were speccing it. Mm hmm. And so, yeah, we enjoyed, again, pretty decent success and again, outsource manufacture. Yeah. So that was out, technically outsource manufacturing, um, yeah, it was going, it was going really well. Dale was similar to myself. We're very driven individual, you know, so let's, we're going to grow this thing. Uh, but again, you know, we kind of had, uh, some, some problems because we had to bring the manufacturer in as a partner, you know, to scale it. And so the manufacturer was brought in and the manufacturer, uh, we did, there goes weren't always the same as yours. Yeah. And so things really changed and, and yeah, it was, we were having good success, but not at the level that I knew we could achieve, if that makes sense. So, you know, I was looking and saying, yeah, we're, we're, we're meeting these numbers and we're doing well and we're, there's growth, but man, we're leaving so much on the table. Like we need to take this up a notch. And that wasn't happening and it was, it was causing a lot of problems and which ultimately led to my wife and I having a conversation and, uh, God bless her because she's been a supporter of mine my entire life, uh, in so many ways. And that's when, you know, she could sense the frustration and she was, you know, we were having this conversation. She's like, listen, I believe in you and I believe in your vision and I believe in that you can do this, but you just keep, you keep doing things with other people and it's, it's holding you back. You need to do something, but you need to, you need to do it on your own. Yeah, it was awesome because, you know, having a partner in life, you know, my best friend and my wife, yeah, I mean, you know, she wears so many hats as so many wives do. And yeah, she, to, to say like, let's, let's figure out how you can do something on your own and that was where I am today. That's push. Okay. Yeah, after having, you know, like good career start and having some entrepreneurial experience and getting a taste for that and having some success and having some, you know, uh, turmoil, challenges, yeah, to be able to just be in a position where it's like, hey, I've got someone, you know, the person who sits right beside me every day is the one that's telling me, go do something and it'll be awesome. Yeah, I love that. And so, uh, that's what I did. I, I, I bowed out of the partnership that I was working with and started push industries. So I try to spot special talent sometimes when I have these kind of conversations and one of the things I'm seeing so far is, uh, a really a vision for product market fit. Yeah. Is that, would you acknowledge that? Is that one of your big, uh, smart points? Yeah, I mean, for me, I always looked at it, you know, I always recognize that in my area of interest, which is mountain biking, that there's, yeah, in my area of interest, which is mountain biking, uh, there's, there's constraints that manufacturers have due to price, you know, OEM price points, etc. And there's, uh, mountain bikers in general, I think cyclists in general, actually, whether you're a road cyclist, gravel mountain motor, yeah, they have, they have upgrade, right? We have a term called upgrade, I just, yeah, they love shiny, new things. Yeah, right? And it's like the, people like to wrench on their own stuff, they like to upgrade their own stuff, you know, it's, having a motorcycle or a mountain bike or a road bike or street bike, it's, it's part utility, part stress relief, part get to tinker, you know, there's just a, it's kind of all of those things in one. And so I've always been the guy that looks at the market and says, where can you insert like a really high performance, a really shiny object, right? And what would I want? You know, like, what is it that I price was no object because to some of my customers, it barely is. Right. What would I want? And, uh, so yeah, that's, that's, I think that's probably a strength of mine as being I, being able to identify a product placement, you know, like, hey, this, this is a really good selling product and there's that customer base is kind of fanatical. And if we gave them a really good performing product that had great build quality and all of these things, then they would buy it. They would pay, they were willing to pay for good things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're going to take a short break. Sure. Oh, it's still going. Dun, dun, dun. Back. And we are, um, we were getting encouraged by your beautiful wife, which you might as well name her too, if you would. Her name is Christina. Christina. Christina Murphy. She's giving you some encouragement and you guys are starting to plan for this, uh, what the next chapter is. And before we get there, um, tell me about the love story briefly. Like, how did you meet, uh, what was it about you that, that, uh, said I can get behind this guy? It's, uh, our story is pretty, pretty funny, actually, pretty unusual. Um, she won't mind me telling this. I'm sure we, uh, yeah, we met through a coworker. So at iBach, I was on the design side and, uh, so each, we had designers and engineers. And so I was on the design side and I worked along with an engineer. And that engineer kind of had a thing for my wife. And, um, at the time, uh, again, living in Southern California, uh, we had three other girlfriends already. Yeah. Everything, uh, times were really good back then. And so, uh, yeah, long story short, um, one night, um, work, I used to commute with this engineer who I'm not going to name. So we used to commute together one night, uh, just before Christmas, a break, we were driving home and he says, Hey, would you mind if I stopped by, uh, this girl's house, it's, it's her birthday. She's getting ready to head out of the town. I want to wish her a happy birthday before she takes off or something. And I said, uh, I was like, no, this is, this is pretty, yeah, let's do that. Whatever. And I said, Hey, stop, stop over here at this, this seven 11. He's like, okay. So we stopped at the seven 11 and I run in and I grab a birthday card. Hmm. And so, uh, we go to our house and we, we walk in and, and I see her and I'm like, Oh, okay. This is good. So I ask her for a pen. So I'm like, Hey, can I borrow a pen from you? And she says, yeah, that's strange, but she gives me a pen. I run into her bathroom. So now she's very confused. And so I write a card to her and I come out and I give her a birthday card. So she's looking at this guy, who, who is this guy? Oh, my goodness. And, uh, I guess the way I was dressed at the time and I was wearing a hat or something that she thought I was an attorney initially, which was kind of funny because I was far from being an attorney's wear a lot of hats, yeah, I guess. So that was how I met her the first time and, uh, she was part of a group of, of people that were just, you know, playing volleyball at the beach and, and going to the bars and they, they had this kind of whole thing going on. And so yeah, I ran into her a couple of times and your friend wasn't really dating her per se. He wasn't. No, he, you know, just hoping to. He was hoping to. And so one day we were out at lunch and I said something about, um, that girl, this girl Christina, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to hit her up and he says, oh, you know, no, that's, that's not a, that's, you know, we kind of have a thing going on. I said, oh, I, oh, no, I had no idea. No problem. He's, no, you got it. And, uh, when are separate ways. And then, so then we were, uh, I met her at, uh, another event, you know, kind of talking and hanging out and it was, it was kind of strange and, and she actually texted me after that and, uh, was wondering what was going on. And I said, you know, listen, I know about you and Stan and I'm, I'm just not into that one there. I said his name. I, you know, I just want to stand up there. So I said, no, you know, I know that what you've got going on with him. And she, she was, she said, what, what do you mean? Mm hmm. So then again, I went back to work and I said something to Stan, like, hey, I've, Christina hit me up and I, I talked to her and, and she said there's, there's, there's, there's nothing going on. And that's when he said, well, yeah, I, I didn't want to tell you the truth. You know, she's, she's actually, you know, had a run in with, with drugs and, you know, we're trying to help her through it and, you know, she's kind of a mess. And so I just didn't want you getting messed up with her and I said, oh, wow, that, yeah, I did. Well, thanks. I definitely, you know, I don't need any baggage, you know, young guy and there's plenty of girls around. Like crazy ones. Yeah, I mean, she's cute, but man, I don't know about that. So that led into her finally reaching out to me, like, why, you know, why are you not talking to me? Because you're a crazy truckhead. That's why. Yeah. And I said, because you're nuts, you know, you're a whack job. So then she called me and said, what are you talking about? And at the time, she was a federal agent. So couldn't be the furthest from the truth. Right. He was just basically trying to keep me from, from connecting with her. And the truth was that she was a very law abiding citizen and was working for the federal government at the time. And so that made it okay. And we, we started dating and just like pees and carrots from there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's pretty sappy. But for me, it was definitely, I knew real quick, you know, there was something special about this girl. It was just, well, not like she did, too. I don't think she did. Actually, I think for her, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was good, but I don't think it was, I think I was kind of head over heels and she was thinking this was pretty good. But ultimately, yeah, we've, I mean, this year will be celebrating 23rd. Well, you're still not over heels, obviously. Yeah, she's awesome. She still thinks you're pretty good. Yeah, yeah. We've, you know, like any, any relationship, you have your ups and downs, but we've done a real good job of, of navigating that stuff and, you know, she's a, she's a girl. Well, I don't know if I warned you before, but we finish every podcast with a faith family politics round. Very much. And so we could talk a little bit more about the extended family. But let's get back into the business journey a little bit and pull some lessons out. So we, we're planning, I guess, I imagine you doing some planning and stuff, or you're just like, check out, I'm going to go start push. Well, I had had these ideas already. So the, the, I had base idea for push, I'd been bouncing around for a year and a half. You know, and Christina had heard me venting about, oh, man, if this would be such a great product, this would be such a great product about this one, this one, and I think that's what ultimately led to her saying, you know, you should do something because it sounds like you've already got things, you've already got kind of the base worked out. And so you should go, you know, pull that off. So yeah, so she said that to me and that really was a big trigger. And so we started thinking of a name, kind of thinking about how to navigate this. But the first thing, one of the first things I did is I had made a lot of, I had done a lot of networking over the years at this point. So traveling to all the races, one thing about traveling to all the events and races, you meet lots of media, you meet lots of company owners, you meet lots of, you know, it's good for networking, right? Sure. As any, as any business owner knows, there's so much strength in networking, right? You, you, you finding people like-minded people or people who have specialty skills or know someone who has something, networking is a really big part of business. Don't have to tell me. Yeah, right. I mean, it is your business. And so I, I built a pretty strong network. I've always been an extremely honest person. So from a legitimacy standpoint, you know, I've always like or hate what I say. It's the truth, you know, and so that, that goes along ways. So I started reaching out to this network of kind of key individuals in the industry and said, hey, this is what I'm thinking about doing. Or this is what I'm thinking of doing. I'm going to need some support, you know, there's, I'm going to need some support, support from the manufacturer or from this or from that. And a key one at the time was a gentleman, Richard Cunningham, who I had idolized as a kid. Richard Cunningham was the editor of Mountain Bike Action. So yeah, so cool that later in life, I'd be friend of this person that I had idolized. But Richard was, you know, a guy that was the editor of Mountain Bike Action, very influential magazine at the time. And so I called him and just said, hey, I'm going to, I want to run by an idea that I have for this business that I want to start. But if I do it, I need someone to get the word out. Because again, this is pre-social media, pre-internet. And I promise I'll pay it for some ads down the road. Right. You know, what can we work out? And again, just that strength in networking, you know, I had known Richard. He knew I had integrity and he said, you know, when you're ready, you just tell me and I'll come down and we'll do a story. And so that was a big component, knowing that, how am I going to make the phone ring? How are people even going to find out about me? That's a huge, I mean, that's a, that's a big one. And so that's what happened is we started putting together the plan. We found a place to rent industrial complex to rent and lined up the manufacturing. I was doing all the design work at the time. So I spent the whole summer of spring and summer of 2003, doing all the design work, lining up the manufacturing because all the manufacturing of the performance parts was going to be outsourced. We secured our space. We took $100,000 in equity out of our home in California. We had bought our first home and that was when the market was exploding in California. So we fortunately had equity that we could take out. Sure. And so we used that equity to start the company because there's no way a bank was going to fund me. Right. Zero point zero. Yeah. So we started getting all that together and yeah, we built the shop and made it look professional and I was really excited about it and I did. I called Richard Cunningham and I said, would you be willing to come down? I'm ready to go. And he said, absolutely. And within a week, he came down for lunch and spent the afternoon at push and took pictures and we talked about it. And he was a big supporter from from day one. So it was really awesome to have that experience of someone like I said, I idolized growing up that now was sitting across from me at Wolfgang Pucks at the Irvine Spectrum and saying, this is going to be great. I can't wait to write this. This is going to be a good story. What would he say? It was about you that that caused him to have that confidence in you and want to support you. You know, Richard and I got along from the first day we met because he is a, he is an evil mad scientist or an evil genius, right? He's a, but not evil. No, not evil. He's a, you know, mechanical engineer by background. You know, if I graduated as a mechanical engineer, very technically minded, love to write, love to explore the world was just a positive energy type of person. And so when he and I got together and met, he loved technical products. So even when I was working at Marzochi, when I first met him, not just showing him her product, but taking him into the tech trailer, for instance, and taking it apart and show him the guts and talking about how it works and the ins it out. So from a, from a media perspective, he loved that. And so I was known to him as the guy that would not, you know, bullshit him about marketing. Right. Would show him the details and talk about this is why this has been. Yeah, then that's in the world. So yeah. And so I think for him, having that engineering mind, he really appreciated that. I wasn't going to use buzzwords. I wasn't going to use acronyms, you know, I was just going to show him what this thing did. So what does your, what does your team look like and what's the business organization look like during those early weeks? Me. Okay, outsourced supplier, some marketing support here and this and that and just pulling it all together. Yeah. So at the time, I had a, I had a computer, I had a desk, I had a computer, I had a workbench, full of tools and I had a bunch of small parts. And I had a portable phone that I clipped on my belt with a headset that I wore. And so when the phone rang, I was out in the shop, you know, working on customer products. So that first year, when you called and talked to me, you know, I was, I was the only person who could pick up the phone, the only person who could do any kind of email, which was early for me at the time. If you were a walk in, you know, it's, I was a one-man show for that, that first year and just doing all of it, but happy to, right, because it was, it was also completely under my control, which is something I hadn't had until that point. And so the idea of being able to build this thing and do, do it the way that I wanted to or the way I thought was best, was really, really critical. So for the first year, it was me, and you're talking about the shop, what's the shop? So the shop is, it was a small space, 800 square feet. So it had like a, maybe a 80 square foot office, a little front office area, and then just a standard warehouse, right, just concrete floor, white walls. And that was it. And so I just had a Craftsman workbench, like what you'd buy at Home Depot, right? So Home Depot Craftsman workbench. And you don't got a bunch of bikes in there necessarily, or do you, mostly it's just parts of goods. Yeah, just a few bikes, you know, customers initially would drop off with, you know, will call, would drop their bike off for service, and then I'd service it and they'd take it back. But no, just a, just a couple of bikes, but it really was kind of an empty space with a tool bench, you know, like a work bench, with a vice, and I think I might have had a drill press, you know, like that was my, my big tool at the time, maybe a drill press. But pretty scarce. So when you, when I look at the pictures of back then, it's like, wow, that was a, that was a really small operation. And I remember our first year, you know, we did $78,000 in revenue. And that was, you know, like 78 grand. That's way more than I did. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because so this is, this is the, you asked me this earlier, this is the first time that I pivot to the business. This is the first time I have any interest in it. Have any glance at what that looks like, you know, like, so even when you were partners with these with the other bikes, I think you weren't as in the business. No, I was, I was still doing, I was selling stuff, I was building stuff, but somebody else was handling, you know, the day to day and the financials and the balance sheet. I didn't even know those things existed, right? Right. Right. I didn't know how we made money. I didn't know how much we were making it. That wasn't my thing. Well, in 78,000 was your salary before, not your top one. Right. And so, yeah, so to have, to be in a position where I was the only person. So I had to look and see how much, you know, I had to write a rent check and do I have, can I afford to write a rent check? And we had this limited amount. I knew that the money we took from the house was the only thing we were going to have. And so I had to make that work. And so in order to do that, I've always been good at math and, and so the analytical side just kind of made it work. Yeah. And so that was the first climber into, okay, there's another side to business. It's the side of you have to have money, you have to pay bills, you have to order things. You, you know, did you find some things out that, like, oh, I was going to charge this much for this service, but now that I study my time, I need to charge this much to make it work or anything like that. And I was interesting because I just had this conversation earlier with someone, no, for the first five or six years, there was no awareness of cost of goods. There was no awareness of profit margin, right? Because fortunately, we were direct to consumer business to start and we had good margin. It was a big labor component, it was a big part of the revenue. And at the time, we just were making money and buying things. And so I didn't have to worry about, I didn't know what those things were and didn't have to worry about. In fact, another funny story is, when I, after I did hire my first employee, I wasn't paying payroll tax because I didn't know, yeah, I didn't know what that was a thing. And oddly enough, my, my wife, again, she was a federal agent for, for the Treasury Department. Okay. Yeah. So she had to make sure you pay her. Yeah. So she worked in the internal affairs for revenue and it was, anyway, so she, I don't, I can't remember how it came about, but she started getting these certified letters of the house. I think that's what it was. I think we got a letter and she said, do you, have you been taking care of this? I said, I don't even know what that is. And she, you know, shrugged her head and was like, oh, boys. And so she came in and, and helped get that stuff sorted, yeah. She quickly recognized that, you know, I needed some help. And so she started sorting out some of those things for me, which was, yeah, and obviously we made good on it and everything worked out, but it was, it was pretty embarrassing at the time. Like, no, I just write them a paycheck. I don't know. Right. What do you mean? I just read it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's, there's money that has to go somewhere else. So, well, you just don't know what you don't know. Yeah. And so those early years, it was, it was, it was just business and, and we were profitable enough. And I think a lot of small businesses start that way. If you've got the right product at the right time, people aren't, they're passionate about what they do. Yeah. And they don't understand. One foot in front of the other. Profit margins or P&Ls or balance sheets or how any of that stuff relates to the actual business side of it. It's like, I'm making money. What do you mean? I mean, I'm, my bills are paid. Yeah. I've got money in the bank and I'm buying all the supplies I need. So I'm, what do you mean, what are, what are all these other things? Yeah, that really speaks to, uh, not to do a local thing, tank commercial, but, you know, if you'd have been a, a local chapter for smaller businesses at that time, you'd learn from each other and stuff at a lot faster pace. There is absolutely no question. I look at the level of success we could have had so much earlier, had we had people in that network that knew those things or could provide you that guidance. And I think you and I have had this conversation, you know, previously on the phone, you know, for me, that is, you know, part of my future is just, you know, kind of helping guide people because I've, I've hit a lot of potholes getting here. A lot of potholes. It's nice learning from other people's mistakes once well, we're sharing your mistakes, so others can learn. Yeah. If I was an entrepreneur for sure, like, joining a group or having some kind of mentor network or some kind of ability to, um, have the experiences of other business owners, you know, and have a variety, you know, this person's really good at e-commerce. This person's really good at manufacturing or whatever it is. Yeah. It makes, it would not just slip that commercial in there. Yeah, no, it's fine. I was thinking about, I believe in it. So, yeah, you might not know our, our, one of our taglines is it's local communities think tank, but it's, uh, make you crazy if you don't talk to somebody about your small business, but make your spouse crazy if you only ask them what they should do. Right. So, I'm imagining your wife doing those earlier, yeah. So, uh, so things are going okay, though. We're hiring people eventually to do more of this service and strictly the, the suspension tuning element and maintenance, I imagine, and service and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, so real quick. For lots of different kinds of shocks and stuff. Yeah. Well, no, it was, it was kind of limited and focused, uh, a focused product line initially because we just, it was just me and then I had one employee. So, we had to, the product line was, we had opportunities with all kinds of stuff but didn't have the capacity for it. And it was actually, so I started the company in 2003, 2005 is when we made the decision to move to Fort Collins. So, uh, you know, the business needed to expand. We needed to hire another person, uh, rent was going up. We needed a bigger space. We needed to hire a person. We day dreamed about quality of life, you know, we had two young children at home. Right. We sell our house here. We could have amazing house there. Right. Exactly. We had to change up our lifestyle and done a bunch of research and long story short settled on Fort Collins. So in 2005, we packed up the business, um, in our house and our one employee packed up his house and we all moved out here. That's cool. That's cool. You want to shout out that employee? Uh, yeah. His name is Jimmy Donahue. Okay. Um, he works for rock shocks now. Okay. Um, big suspension company down in, uh, base out of Colorado Springs. Jimmy, thanks for trusting, um, Darren and, and Christina to move all the way out here. Uh, he's still a good, good buddy of mine, fortunately. So, um, yeah, so we moved here in 05 and, yeah, so those, the first few years of being in Colorado, we, we moved into what I thought was a ginormous, you know, we moved from this 800 square feet and we moved up, uh, next to the UPS depot in between Loveland, Fort Collins. Oh, sure. Yep. Greenfield. Yeah. And it was, um, man, I can't remember what, what it was at the time, but maybe 1400 square feet, but it had high ceilings, you know, like 27 foot ceilings. Right. And this is the, we will never need more, this is amazing. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, 05, we move in in the first few years here in Colorado are booming. Just booming. And again, I'm not paying attention to really anything. I'm embarrassed to say that now, but we were just, we were, we were, we were living the dream kind of thing, um, 0809 had to figure some stuff out about cost of goods sold in margins and stuff. I still didn't. But it was, and again, had I known we would have, whether that storm better than we did, but fortunately, we kind of were able to pull it together through 0809. It was bumpy like it was for everybody. And then it was after that experience is when I started reaching out and, and trying to understand a little bit more because we had grown to a point where the, the dollars mattered a lot more and the amount of revenue that you're doing and the scale of growth, you now can't just, you can't fund it with just cash flow, right? You now you need a line of credit or you need something else, you know, the, for us, the margins were so good, good early and the cash flow was so good that you could just fund the growth. But now we're achieving, uh, an area where it's like, ooh, no, we need to, there needs to be more to it. Right. And so you start looking at what is it actually cost and you start building some spreadsheets and that's when I first started to understand a little bit more about, okay, this is, and it was still in its infancy, you know, I mean, the spreadsheets I was putting together were very basic, but at least it was something to give us an idea of what the business was. Well, I think this gives a little bit of encouragement to many business people wish they had a better handle on what makes their business tick financially and things like that. And as a banker, a lot of times that that's where I start with. And then the other stuff kind of fills in later, right? Although I think you can get to hung up on it, but like you were, you were seven years in or something like that by this time, you know, and had a, what's apparently a successful business, you were making money and profitability and things. And so, you know, don't beat yourself up, but go get some skills. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I looked back at it and we, yeah, it was seven years in. I mean, at the time we had seven or eight employees, you know, we achieved seven figures for the, you know, and so for us, it was like, wow, this is, it's, at that point, it's kind of exceeding what I thought it was going to be. You know, I thought it was going to be a small, like three or four person operation would make me some money, like kind of, I wasn't looking to really make, yeah, I wasn't really looking to make big money, but I was looking to offset having a career, you know, like being able to have a more flexible schedule and get to do some of the things I wanted to do. I wasn't, I wasn't entirely focused on the money side of it per se. Yeah. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. So, I guess, get through the recession and start to really, oh, one of the things I wanted to ask before I forget is you've obviously grown a talent for design and even almost engineering except for, have you ever gotten any particular training in that? No. Just school of hard knocks. Yeah, I never went to university, college, UBI was the most schooling I've got. Three weeks of bicycle mechanic. Yeah, I mean, I will say that, you know, I believe putting good out there, you know, you receive good. And so for me, I've always really tried to be a good person and I've been very fortunate in my career over the years to be surrounded by some incredible engineering talents and some really smart people that have been willing to give me the time and willing to answer my questions over and over and over again. And so, yeah, I learned by one doing and two, I'm not a great listener, but maybe at home but when it comes to like the technical, it was about bikes, that's really good. And so, yeah, for me, I've been really fortunate to be surrounded by a lot of good people over the years that have been willing to take the time to give me the information. And so, yeah, that's really a true school of hard knocks. Yeah, yeah. We have, I had a model years before, loco started, but it was ask of your needs and share of your abundance. Yeah. And, you know, that asking of your needs is sometimes harder, even than the sharing. Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. So we're through the recession, we're learning and I guess soon comes some new real estate or tell me about that. You started talking about another transition point there. Yeah, I mean, for us, so after that point, we were starting to struggle because the company was growing to a point where we relied on the manufacturers for parts and supplies. And so, at the time, Fox was a big supply, Fox is a big suspension company. Still is. Yeah, still, they're massive. And so, Fox at the time was supplying a lot of our parts and pieces. We were a decent sized customer. And I think the messaging of our customers was not to Fox's liking or rock shocks liking because our customers were very happy with the work that we were doing. And basically saying, you know, the stock stuff is good, but if you really want it to be great, you got to send it to push. And I know that that caused some, that caused some bumps between us and the manufacturer. And so, the relationship was strained a little bit, you know, between us and the manufacturer. That wasn't your messaging. Yeah, and that was the, that was the bummer because now the, now the internet, now the message boards, forums, all that stuff are really growing and the message boards are saying all this. So it's not, we're not advertising. The first time you see it, you're like, yeah, yeah, 200 time, you're like, yeah, yeah. So it was one of those where, yeah, the relationship changed with the manufacturers. And we were kind of plateauing and a friend of mine, I was out, out at the inner bike trade show again, and a friend of mine that I was out to breakfast with said, this guy, Andy Ording, successful business guy in the bicycle industry started a company called Zip. They made high end carbon wheels and we were at breakfast and he said to me, he knew about the challenges. He'd been kind of my, my bounce off board for a while. You're at the breakfast, he said, well, why, you know, if you considered like making your own, why don't you make your own suspension? And I just said, be far too expensive, you know, it'd be great, but it's just too expensive. We had to charge three times as much as Fox does. Yeah, well, he just, well, he said, well, what's expensive? How much would it cost? And I was like, well, I don't know, but we can't afford it. We can't afford to invest, we couldn't scale to that level. And we kind of went back and forth and he challenged me at breakfast. He said, go, when you go back, put something together, like take a look, he said, I bet it won't be as difficult as you think it is, what you've made up in your mind. So that's what I did. So I went back and I kind of opened up Excel and started putting some numbers together. And ultimately came up with a small plan of what it would be like to make a mountain bike shock absorber instead of servicing and tuning someone else's mountain bike shock absorber. And he was right. Because when I looked at that small plan, it wasn't as scary as I had made up in my mind. It was still a really big number and something we couldn't, we couldn't do ourselves. But it wasn't as scary as I thought. That's interesting. I think there's a contrast sometimes because I've reviewed a bunch of business plans as a banker, right? And some people definitely have that, you know, it's not going to be that hard. And in two years, I'm going to have a $2 million business and everybody's customers are going to come flying. And then others and yourself in this circumstance, they before they even put a pencil to it. And it's both because they don't put a pencil to it. Yeah. Right. It's just unachievable. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, wait, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Once you start looking at it, it just, I think as humans, right, it's so easy for us to make up in our head, you know, all of these. What if scenarios that explode? You think they're scary. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I was experienced, you know, I mean, I didn't have, we didn't have the strong business financials in place, but obviously I was experienced as an entrepreneur. You know, I knew the, you know, the ups and downs of being a business owner. So that's what I did. And I put that together and showed it to Andy and he said, what do you think? And I said, well, I said, to be honest, it's not as scary as I thought it was going to be. And he said, that's what I thought it was going to be. He said, I didn't think from talking about breakfast, it seemed like what you had made up in your head was bigger than what it was going to be. And he said, what are you going to do with it? I said, I don't know. Damn it. He said, well, I want me to help you take it to the bank. And I said, yeah, we should, we should look into that. And so that's what we did. The first step was talking to the bank, which did not work out in the least bit, bankers are horrible. I was a banker for a long time. Yeah. So that, you know, it was because of the, the plan, you know, from my perspective, being the person who's involved in the company each day knows the customer, knows the distribution channels, knows the manufacturers know, you know, I have a 360 degree view of the marketplace. The risk is medium to a bank, the risk is extreme because they have a very small window into that same thing that I'm looking at. And so from right out of the gate, the bank was just like, there's just no way. Do you want to give credit to that bank? No. Well, you know what? It was JP Morgan. They're, they're actually, they're no longer around. I will say that used to be a small community bank in Northern Colorado and they're, they're no longer here. But, um, and I am. So there you go. Yeah, right. Well, that was for what it's worth. One of the things that I did best in banking was bet on horses, rather than bet on what the numbers always said. And I, I could tell that story. But sometimes it took several banks, you know, sometimes I was bank number five for somebody. Like, I had this guy's going to just turn me down again too. Yeah. If you're a banker and you're out there listening, I'm looking. So reach out to me. A quick no is better than a slow maybe. But um, yeah. So the bank, the bank said, no, pretty much immediately. And we knew, I pretty much assumed that trying to shop this thing around wasn't going to work because trying to explain that story to someone, I think was going to be difficult, you know, because, and the bank flat out said it there, because in their mind, your chain, your ship, you're creating a whole new business, right? So this is what your business has been for, you know, 10 years. Yeah. You're going to pitch that off and start something else. And it's like, no, that's not, we're not, that's not what it looks like. And so, but to them, that's, that's what they saw, right? They said, hey, you used to, you used to make wooden chairs. And now you're going to collapse that business and you're going to go make beer glasses. Right. And it's like, no, it's, that's not what it is. So I knew from that conversation that that was probably going to be the challenge I was going to face with a lot of the banks. And ultimately, you know, we had, again, through networking, had some opportunities to get private money. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was the next big shift in push, right? So we had this 10 year span of building the company, building the brand, kind of learning a lot of things. And now it was time to shift gears and really take it to the next level. And that included, you know, partly investment, it included, you know, everything ratcheted up. Attorneys ratcheted up, accounting ratchets up. You're my understanding of the business. My need to now work with attorneys and accountants and hundreds of hours of YouTube videos. I was going to say, taking on capital and investment, you know, 10 year old established company is no, it was, it just winged that. And the process for us was really, I think it was really pretty straightforward. Like the process for us was really straightforward and it took over a year. You know, I mean, it's, from the time that we had an agreement to when we actually signed the paperwork, was over a year. So we had an agreement at the table. And it was still a year later because of buy sell agreements and, you know, the dollars and the attorneys and everything has to be accounted for. And a big part of that was, again, a huge wind up of me now had to learn business. Now had to be introduced to a profit and loss statement. The balance sheet cash flow had to understand what gross profit was. That's a term I'd never used or heard of. But when you start talking about private equity, venture capital, whatever it is, okay, now you've got to really know your business. You have to know the numbers and that's what I had to do. So that was the biggest shift in history for me, for sure it was, was, and I was even asked by, you know, by the investor, by the investors, which was, are you willing to have, would you have the discipline, are you willing to shift because your role is going to have to change? Like, you no longer going to be a mad scientist down on the shop floor, you now have to run and build a company. You're an executive now. Yeah. And you have to change. And if it's not you, that's okay. Right. We can find somebody else to run this. You can keep your percent. Right. But we need to determine what your role is going to be and if you're willing to accept that. And fortunately, the people I was involved with, we had a very open and honest conversation about that. I think that some small businesses who may be transitioning into that, that period or that phase of their business, if you don't have that conversation and you get put into a role that you're not necessarily comfortable with, you know, that's the success unwinds quite quickly. Yeah. There's a reason they call them vulture capitals. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And for me, you know, that was, that was the, so if you were to ask me the single handly, what was the, what was the biggest challenge you've ever faced in business? That was it. The biggest challenge I ever faced was going from being a very creative product driven customer obsessed person to, you've got to learn the numbers. You've got to learn how business works. You've got to learn how to use the language with the accountants. You have to learn these things. You have to know these things every day of every week at all times, you know, and I did. And it was, it was, it was, it was Marley. Yeah. No, I, it was one of the things I was struck by when we got acquainted on the phone was, it's kind of your command of what's going on in your operation and where you're trying to take that. Yeah. And it's, it's what led to the next phase of success, right? It was really now, I really understood, well, it took me years. Let's not say right then, you know, the first year I put together a plan. We didn't achieve that plan even by a little bit. The second plan I put together, because I was required, obviously, to put together the, the next year's forecast and kind of strategy and sales plan, you have to put everything together. And the first year's plan, I mean, we didn't even get to 50% of plan. The second year we might have maybe kissed up on 50% of plan, third year, get a little bit better, get a little bit better. To where we are today, where now when you look at our financial projections and our sales plan and our strategy, it's pretty darn close. I went to a session at Startup Week last year where they did a gigantic study of companies that went from a million up to 20 million. Yeah. That was their criteria over a 10-year span and it was their sample period. And the single most statistically significant element was, can the company forecast and hit their forecast? Right. Like, if they don't know what to forecast and they don't know how to hit their forecast, then they're not there yet. They're not, they're not really ready to scale. Yeah. And for us, you know, we didn't have a CFO. We didn't have control or we didn't have these people in place, you know, those first years after investment. And so it was relying on me. And so that's, you know, again, that's why we didn't hit it because I didn't have enough experience. Yeah. But fortunately, you know, our group is really invested in the people and the company. And they knew we would get there, you know, and they trusted that I would put everything into it. They knew we weren't hitting it because I wasn't trying. It's because I lacked that experience and they knew it would just take some time because same thing my wife who works at the company full-time as the COO, you know, there's no question she's going to put in a thousand percent effort all the time. And so we just keep achieving more and more. And yeah, so now, you know, you're five years, six years into it and the planning, the forecasting, the ability to strategize, the ability to pivot, the ability to understand where you are today, where you need to go. How do you get there? Right. Well, I have to think that you were still the primary rainmaker on the business development and sales element too because you had all those relationships that most people didn't have and whatever. Yeah. And even to this day, that's my role. I still, in the one who's traveling across the globe, other than this past year, you know, normally, I live on a plane because of all of our international customers. But yeah, we have a great sales team back at home. I'm anybody who knows me will tell you I'm the least organized person you'll ever meet. That's not my skill set, but working with customers, understanding the need and coming up with what the solution is going to be is really great from that's a part of my job I love. I love going to Germany and being on the ground with the media, with the customers, with our distribution and our service center and just strategizing on how we're going to make all this work. And then my wife who is highly organized, she stays on top of things. The guy who handles our international accounts, Dylan, same thing, highly organized. And so they're the people that they take what I just did and say, okay, we'll make sure it's happening. You can take some notes after you're meeting please so we know what's supposed to happen. We'll make sure this happens. And all of our key accounts now know this that I go in and I agree and we kind of put together something and they all know to reach out to Christina or Dylan and say, hey, Darren agreed to all of these things. Right. Right. And then they simply say, hey, so yeah, Chris at MRC said that we could do all this stuff and I said, yeah, I did tell him that. Right. Okay, perfect. I will make sure that happens. So talk to me about your wife joining the business because she was a treasury, something that last time talked about her. Yeah, she was a federal agent up until we moved here. Okay. So when we moved to Colorado, two very young kids, our oldest son was just getting ready to start kindergarten, which was part of the move. We wanted to kind of start our kids in school system here. And so yeah, she decided to leave a great career to kind of follow this. Make sure you didn't get in too much trouble. This wacky dream. Yeah. Yeah, it's been, it's been overall good, but yeah, working, working together and living together and raising kids together, it's a lot of time together. So we've had to, we've had to really work at it, obviously, you know, and budding heads at work and as we, as I've matured, you know, understanding just communication and, you know, it's, it's been extremely difficult, but we're committed to each other. So we figure out how to make it. So she's been at the company since 2005. Okay. Any special tricks or tips for a husband and wife working together? You know, honestly, I think it's, I think it's the same. Speaking from my own experience, it's, it's the same as a relationship, your relationship at home. It's no different, right? So for me, it's, it's always been, it's communication, trying to understand the other person's point of view, and I've certainly not been perfect over the years. But you just kind of continuously improve and continuously try to work together. And when you have the arguments, you know, it's like, man, I've got to kind of go back and try to, it's, it literally is no different than your relationship at home. I think as a marriage, if you don't own a business together, you still have, you know, it's paying the bills, it's raising the kids, you know, my wife and I, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's, you have all of these challenges that life throws at you. And so it's, it's like having two marriages, two kids or something like that. You know, where you've got this work life and you've got this home life. And certainly we bring tons of work home and have for many years, obviously. And so we've had to be really conscious of its effects on our kids and making sure that we're plugged into the kids. And again, that's an area my, my wife is an amazing mom and has made me a much better dad than I could have ever been. And I thank her for that tremendously. And so she's been so good at understanding work, bleeding over to the home too much and shutting it down and really saying, no, this is, we've got to focus on the kids. They have an event or school or whatever, get back to that. Yeah. And so because for me, yeah, I'd be running 100 miles an hour all the time with a business. And so it's been really great to have someone who's like, until you run out of gas. Yeah. I'm going to stop because it's the kids are doing this or we've got something that we need to do as a couple, you know, the business has to like get checked at the door because tonight is our night or the kids night or whatever it is. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So it's been good. And she's been really good about even with our vacations kind of, you know, planning stuff around business trips. So I can get what I need done and then we can have get right out the tickets besides. Yeah. Yeah. Not with the kids on horseback. Yeah, because that's the only thing about bringing investors, right? You can't do that. Right. Yeah. But yeah, but it's one of those things where, you know, just having the kids share in that experience, you know, being able to travel to Europe and kind of explore around there. And it's been a great experience and she's been really good at balancing and bringing that stuff in. So from a business perspective, I think if you have good communication and have a solid relationship at home, it really helps create that solid relationship at work. That being said, it is, it's high level of difficulty. You have to be not for the faint of heart. No, you don't have to be committed to like making it work because it does. And fortunately, over the years, it's kind of our offices have grown apart and, you know, it's, we have, we're dividing conquer with our duties. So we always tell people, you know, a lot of people like, wow, how can you see each other that much each day? And it's like, wow, and this sometimes it, we, a week goes by and I don't even see you at the office, you know, so we've developed this new plan and suspension and did that come in concert with the move to your current facility then, or did you actually, no, we were already there. Okay. Yeah. So the new, the facility weren't currently. We moved into in 2008 or 2007 just before the economy got out. Yeah. Yeah. We kind of rate after the economy crashes when we moved in there. So yeah, we moved into, we moved down to Loveland, got introduced to a builder down there who was kind of building to suit lease buildings and did that. So we got into this building and that was at the time 30, 500 square feet, I think it was. Yeah. So that was again, another like, wow, yeah, the same thing. Wow, we will never grow to, yeah, yeah, right. And yeah, so we, we moved there and then it had taken on, it was a three condo unit. And so then we had taken on a second unit. So we, we now are up to 7,000 square feet. So we're at 7,000 square feet and had purchased a CNC machine when we decided to make the shock. Gotcha. Yeah. Or actually, at that point, we had three CNC machines. So over the years, we were, we were splitting between outsourcing and making some parts in the house. Okay. And so we had three CNC machines at the time that we decided to build the shock. So a big part of that plan was a capital expense, you know, with buying equipment. So that cap X is really what throws the banks off, right? Because you want to go from, from really not having much in way of cap X, yeah, a million and a half in debt. Yeah. And we were looking at, you know, the CNC machines we had were good for making parts, but they don't make you a manufacturer. Yeah. We were looking at, you know, a machine that was more manufacturing oriented, a couple of them. And yeah, the price, higher output, higher precision, all the way higher price. You know, the first, the first machine we bought from manufacturing, the 11, 6 rear shock, cost more than the three machines that we had sitting on the floor already, you know, just that one machine. So that's where the banks were like, no, we can't, you can't 1.2 million in cap X. Yeah. No. For a product that doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Before you killed your new revenues, are we old revenue stream? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it is what it is. Yeah. I knew it was going to work. Right. Right. Yeah. So let's talk to key elements of like development along that process like before you can, was there some new things or was it really just a, we shut off this stream and turn on this new stream. And it's almost seamless over a two year period or something like, yeah, I mean, it started with, you know, I come up with this technology called the dual overhead, which is now known as the dual overhead valve for a mountain bike suspension and that I have a patent on it. And it was an idea that I had and I didn't want to, I didn't want to put it on someone else's product. It was significant enough that I wanted to create a product around it. Yeah. The first product was the 116 rear shock and it featured this dual overhead valve system. I want to guess at it. Is it like an easy part and then a harder part so that it has two stages? Yeah. It's basically two different ride characteristics because on mountain bikes, we live here in Colorado, you do tons of climbing and then tons of descending and it optimizes suspension for climbing makes it so it's, you know, not so great for descending in vice versa. And so I had this concept of, well, what if we built a shock that had two completely different characteristics that you could toggle between on the fly? So I have one setting that I can fine tune so it's perfect for climbing in another setting that's perfect for descending. And then so when I climb, I flip the lever into the climb position and if I'm climbing fast fire roads versus chunky trail, I can even fine tune it for the type of terrain. And so that was the idea and we built a prototype and it worked, this never happens but the prototype worked the first time and it was like, okay, this is cool. Yeah. You know, now we can have a mountain bike that can be excellent at both. What a really smart idea because the fine tuning is too hard but by the separate valves, it's just big, big. Yeah, exactly. And the fine tuning is, you just, no one's going to do it. You might do it a couple of times but then ultimately, I just want to go ride my bike and have fun. So yeah, the idea of just being able to go flip like this lever just has, it's like a light switch. There's two positions. It's either on this way or on that way. And so yeah, that was the key technology and that's really the, that was, okay, now we've got this product that we know is going to be, we know it's going to be a big deal. And the second part is it's going to be a USA made product made here in Colorado. We're going to make it. And at the time, everyone's making everything in Asia and still, they still do. So we'll be the only, you know, manufacturer and we're going to use the best materials, the best of everything. And it's, you know, if we're going to do this, we're not going to make something that's a little better. Right. It's going to be the best by a mile. And so that's what we did. We created the world's most expensive mountain bike shock. When it launched, the Fox and Rockshock shocks were around $500 and there was a company called King Creek that was making a shock for $600 and people were even complaining about how expensive that was and we launched with a shock that cost $1,200. And people just said, that is not going to work. Where could I get mine? And that's what ended up happening. So yeah, we proved him wrong that there is a market for that. People build quality and I think the, another big thing with the product is, you know, we build products that aren't disposable and in today's day and age, where of so many disposable products, we build a product that you can service. You know, it's like your old DVD player used to be able to get it fixed. And now it's $30 at Walmart for a new one. So you don't even think about fixing it. And so with all of our products starting with the 11.6, we've always built around the mindset of it's part performance, it's part environment, it's part just DNA. You know, we want to create a product that is kind of respectful of manufacturing and waste and something that you can, you can keep, you know, it's a dying, it's a dying breed. And we're really proud of the fact that that's what we do. So what's next for push or I guess before we go there, what's your product array look like right now of that manufactured products and you don't do servicing anymore or you do service your own service. Just your own. Yeah. Yeah, we have. So we have three kind of main products. We have our 11.6 rear shock, which is, you know, the number one. So the rear shock is kind of our key product. And then we have a coil, a coil spring upgrade for Fox and RockShock front forks. That's kind of, we can do it or it's a do it yourself kit at home. And then we have another product called the Hypercharger, which is a damper kit for RockShock forks. They're strong products, but nothing in compared to like revenue and profitability of the 11.6. And honestly, we've struggled to keep up, you know, our whole thing is capacity. And so while we have new products in the pipeline, getting them to market is going to be our biggest challenge. In fact, right now, we're going through a massive expansion. So we're going through our first phase of the next level of manufacturing. So we're just in the process of working with the city of leveling on doing a huge power upgrade to our building. We're going to be out of space again this year by another expensive machine or two. We just bought five. Yeah. We just invested in five new fully automated machining cells. And so scaling manufacturing and growing, you know, I will give another thing from a business perspective, one, another thing that I really had to focus and required a lot of discipline, I love, I love coming up with ideas. And I realized that you have to focus on finishing something. Because I think for many years, I was the king of having six projects almost done, almost, but not one that was actually done. And so kind of during that 2011, 2012 phase, I really got to understand the prioritizing finishing something. And then focusing on that. So like when you look at 11, 6, you know, there's many other products. Because of the success of that, our key accounts want all of these other things. And I look at and say, yeah, we could do all of those things. But ultimately, the 11, 6, we're not meeting our, the kind of consumption rate, yeah, we can't fill demand. Yeah. Can't fill demand at this point. And so let's keep focused on being really great at doing that before we move on to something else. And so that's, you know, that's kind of where we're at is as we're continuing to kind of grow and stay focused on that one, protecting your ideas with some intellectual property protections as well. Yeah. And so I'd love to, I'd love to, we have these other products that some of them are in prototype phase and some of them can't talk about them here. No. Come on. They're really big deals. One of them is kind of obvious and is a lot of rumors about it, but I will, the switch front shock. Yeah. That would be a great product, I think. So yeah, I mean, for us, we were focused on just continuing to improve the business side of it and finish things. Yeah. I think whether you're climbing a hill or in a race, yeah, it's a trap. I think a lot of small business owners get into because it's like, you see something, I could do that better. I could do it, you know, whatever it is. And they, and I was guilty. I was always seeing something and saying, we could do that. We could do something that's so much better and you'd end up with nothing. Whereas now, if you just focus and then finish something, and that, then you have to say no. Yeah. For me, that's been a huge, huge discipline. So for the future for push right now is, you know, oddly enough, you know, we're on track to double our company size this year. Oh. So 2021 looks like we're going to double and in step. And 2020 was growth too, yeah. No, 2020. Don't COVID. Yeah. 20, you know, 2020 for us was a good year. Was a breaky. Well, it was an even year to 2019, 2019 was a very strong year. 2020, we, we equaled it, which beat, we were closed for seven weeks, you know, because we were not an essential business. So we shut down manufacturing and so we were closed for seven weeks. Well, January and February, we weren't selling product because we launched a new product on March 12th. Our new product line launched on March 12th. And then we were two weeks later, we were told to shut down. And so having the first quarter of the year, all these orders are coming in. Oh, yeah. Having the first quarter of the year be shut down. And then all this disruption through Q2 and then Q3 and Q4 to be able to come back and catch back up to where we were. I was very happy and everyone hustled and absolutely proud of the people that we have. And so that was good. And so now we're just, we're going to build on that. We've got the momentum. We've got the, you know, kind of distribution in place. And pipelines ready. Yeah. Cool. So now we just need to expand the manufacturing to be able to supply that demand. We feel super fortunate, you know, and I don't want to, I don't want to come off of the way. You can knock on the ping pong table. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's, and we, we do feel fortunate because we've had to, you know, we had to pivot and we had to do all kinds of things and for sure, back in March, April, like a lot of small businesses, you know, we, we weren't sure how we were going to come out the other end. Because we, you know, we didn't have a year's worth of capital to supply, you know, it's like we have months worth, for sure. Like, you know, we can continue to pay people's health benefits and make sure everyone's sorted. But if this thing goes on after six months, right, well, I mean, what do we do at that point? Yeah. Well, who could? Yeah. What else would you like listeners to hear about the business story before we jump into the trifecta of, no, third rail topics, yeah, that's, yeah, that's pretty much it. You want to, it looks, I'll say, you know, and we do have this, yeah, I mean, people from the outside looking in now, it's like, wow, it looks like you just, everything was in place all along the way. Right. You can say now. Oh, yeah. No, there's probably a, we, we, we avoided talking too much about a few topics already. And so there's train wrecks on the path every 100 percent. So which do you prefer faith family politics to start with? Faith family politics. Yeah, we're going to touch on each of those. I get to choose. I get to choose the cat. Anyhow, or we just talk about all of them real well, how much time do you have? We only got. I have time. You're okay. Yeah. Fire away. Well, we started talking about your, your family affair, but already want to start with that. You've got a couple boys. Did we hear that? Yeah. Yeah. So I've got two, two raging boys. Okay. And yeah, they've, they've turned out amazing. We've been, we've had a really, you know, we grew up, we grew the kids up here in Colorado without any local family, you know, and so we kind of did it by ourselves. And so we've got a really close knit groups. And the four of us are quite a little, quite a little squad. And I'm really. Yeah. Team Murphy. Super proud of the kids. How old are the boys? So my oldest son, Jared, is 20. Okay. And my youngest son, my, my other son, Evan is, well, he's 17 now. Okay. And I like to ask our guests. Oh, he's 16. Oops. Sorry, Evan. You're very mature for your age. Yeah, he's 16. I like to get a one word description of kids a lot of times. And these guys are a junk man at this point. But can you find a one word description for Jared and Evan? Uh, yeah, I mean, Evan is, Evans are, are cool cucumber. Okay. Yeah. So Evan is, uh, he's just, he's an easy kid. He's just easy going cool cucumber for sure. Um, Jared intense. Oh. Yeah. So a lot of difference in their personality. Yeah. Yeah, completely. Are they bicycle fanatics too or things like that? Uh, no. Not really. They've always had the opportunity. Um, but. I keep up with that anyway. Yeah. Too competitive. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? And I don't know. Um, they've always had the opportunity. And we've done a little bit here and there with motorcycles and mountain bikes and stuff. But my wife and I, we've always, we've always wanted the kids to do what they wanted. Yeah. So while the kids are doing, you know, like Jared was a big swimmer. Yeah. Swimming was a big thing. He was really, really good at it. Um, you know, the kids played basketball and, and Evan's been kind of a thrash around the neighborhood. So he's just kind of, whatever the kids are doing, I'm doing, you know, and so he's been that guy and then Jamie and Jared was the typical, uh, gamer, you know, like a lot of kids. He grew up in the gaming, um, thing and, uh, gaming was a big thing and he actually makes money on the side doing that. Really? Yeah. Which is baffling me. Money, like commenting and making videos of them, like playing video games. Oh, yeah. My oldest son, Jared, and that's the thing growing up, uh, my family was very anti bikes. And so I grew up, uh, my, the most important thing in my life was bicycles and my family wasn't super supportive of that. And so one of the things I knew with my kids was I was going to let, whatever it was and even the gaming, I'll be honest, I looked at it and said, this is kind of ridiculous. Right. Um, but if that's what he wants to do, then I'm going to encourage that and I'm going to be supportive of it. And ultimately much like me with, you know, bikes obviously turned into, you know, big business turns out and, uh, with Jared, um, he's a young kid and, and he, uh, he gets, he gets a little bit of money here and there for doing coaching and different things. Well, if you're probably going to said, uh, Darren, you're getting rid of that BMX bicycle and I don't want you hanging out with that bike shop anymore. Yeah. It wouldn't, uh, it would be impossible. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so he does it on that. So he's still as a gamer and he does it on the side. And like I said, he makes a little bit of money and has fun. And like, cool. That's, that's great. And we talked, um, you know, you lost your dad. Yeah. Young is your mom still. Yeah, my mom's still, yeah, my mom's still alive. And siblings as well. Yeah. I have a brother who still lives back in, in Maine. Okay. Yeah. We're, we're very different people. But yeah, my mom, my mom lives in Texas and, uh, while we had a, a period there that wasn't real great, you know, we've, we've, uh, reconnected. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Glad to hear. Yeah. So, uh, faith politics, which one of those do you want to take? Faith is fine. Okay. Let's hit it. What's that journey been like for you? I'm guessing like up east, Maine, that's, is that Catholic country? Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, I grew up in an incredibly religious household. Oh. And it was, it was interesting. Uh, I, I will say that as an adult, um, not a very religious person. Yeah. Uh, for me, uh, I'm a big believer, like I said earlier, you know, you know, you know, I'm what you put out there, you know, so I'd say, I think I'm in the, in the category of a lot of people, right? You're kind of a spiritual person. Right. But not a religious person. And that's why I use faith. Like, because religious is such a dirty word. And I, I do go to church every, well, not a couple of times a month usually, but, but I don't ever use religious as something to describe myself. Yeah. Because I'm not that. Yeah. And I did a lot of, a lot of church growing up as in my wife, we both came from very religious backgrounds. Yeah. And, um, our family still are and, and, um, I'm not, and that's produced some challenges with my family. Sure. And some people are, are accepting of it. And some people aren't. And, uh, you know, I just, I'm a good person. Yeah. So at the end of the day, that's, that's what I want to be. I like to get people's perspectives on how they landed there. Yeah. And we've had, uh, interesting political season and, uh, all the stuff. Uh, you comment as much or as, I voted for Kanye. I'll, uh, tip my, tip my hand right off the bat. Well, I'm going to have to, had I known that I wouldn't have done this. You don't have to say anything. But we can't even just comment on the system or the challenge or the, whatever. Whatever you care to say, because, yeah, I mean, uh, you know, politics is something, uh, I, I keep, well, both my wife and I, we keep a close tab on politics, but I think for a different reason. Unfortunately, you know, here in the US, it's so polarizing and it's so divided and so angry. And it's just turned into kind of an ugly mess, right? But at the same time, uh, politics, so heavily influence our business. Um, we have, we have large scale operations in the UK. So Brexit for us. Oh, wow. Yeah. Is a big, you know, so Brexit was big on our big deal. Yeah. We have, we do, we do business, you know, a lot of business. Uh, we do big business in Germany, big business in the UK, big business, big business in Singapore. Uh, Australia, you know, and so the relationship between the US and these other countries is important to us. Um, what's going on in those countries such as Brexit, you know, so the political thing for me is something that, uh, I don't like to get caught up in all of the showcasing and the, you know, who's right? Who's wrong? All that stuff. For me, it's the substance. It's how does it impact our business? So I follow politics. I would say fairly closely, just from the perspective of like right now, what are the consequences? Yeah, because Myanmar is a big supplier of, of product to the bicycle industry. And so right now with the coup that's going on over there, while, you know, I don't really have an opinion either way, I'm going to tell you that I haven't researched it to be able to, uh, take an opinion on it or give you an opinion on it. Other than I'm watching it to see how it affects business. Watching disruption. Right. Exactly. Just like I watch Brexit and with Brexit, you know, we have a hand there. So we have people on the ground that we're communicating with and trying to figure out and navigate. Um, that one ended up working out in our favor because the currency shifted the right direction. And the US is exempt from all of the Brexit complications. Uh, so as a US manufacturer, uh, doing business in UK, it's actually improved our abilities to do business over there. That's something that doesn't destroy their economy. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, so for politics, um, yeah, I would say that I really wish that people could focus more on the substance unless on the who's right, who's wrong, fighting and all the misinformation that's out there. Right. And also, um, stop focusing on things that don't actually affect you. You know, unless you know, unless you're involved, you really shouldn't form such a strong opinion. Hmm. You know, whether it's, um, you know, on, on energy issues or, you know, corporate taxes, you know, unless you're actually involved and have an intimate working knowledge of those things, we probably shouldn't be commenting on them. And I think too often the case here, that's what people do. I'm, I'm an economist by education, actually, North Dakota State University. Yeah. Um, and I've always had a bit of a fascination of unintended consequences of policy decisions. Huh. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, because it's, there's usually lots of them. Yeah. And sometimes if you looked at them close enough, you could figure out what it might be. You know, the Brexit thing. What's really going to shake down from that? Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, I'm, I'm feeling on that like it's really more about the substance. What's this going to change this year? Yeah. Five years from now, 10 years from now. And remove the emotional component, right? So if you could, and I know that's very difficult. And I get caught up in it too. Trust me, I've, I've thrown plenty of a rant in my wife and I, you know, drinking beers and complaining up and down about this. That's the thing. We've all done it. I get tied into it as well. But at the end of the day, I always try to look at, um, I guess everything in my life, but specifically politics. Remove the emotional component and look at the substance and say, how is that going to affect my family, my household, my local community? All right. The things that where I actually live and breathe and play, and how is it going to affect where I do business around the globe? And that's actually what I should focus on. There's a podcast I've been listening to lately that's, uh, think local and live local. Yeah. You know, and just kind of really focusing on the things that you touch. Yeah. I haven't heard that, but I would, it's probably one that I'd be interested in because I'm a big believer in that for sure. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. No, one of these days. And, and that's one of the reasons I touch on these is, like, if you just read the media, you would be imagining that there's people in blue shirts and people in red shirts, like lined up with bricks and torches that are, like, ready to stab each other. But most of us, and especially the business community that sells stuff to both colors and the purples. Yeah. And whatever that really, we just want to be concerned about helping each other, networking with, like, minded people, doing things that help our business grow, prosper our communities grow and prosper and have safe places for our kids to raise their families. Yeah. And then things people say and do they wouldn't do in person or say in person. You know, it's like the social media and, and, um, the internet has provided people platforms where they can say things that they wouldn't say to your face necessarily. And some people would, but, yeah, but you know, at the end of the day, it's like, it's nicer about it. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, you're driving down the road and you see, you know, a car crash and, you know, most people's response is going to be stop and let, what can we do to help this person? Oh, my gosh. Is everyone okay? Let's call 911. And no one's, no one's considering their race, their religion, their this, their that. It's, you know, like, what political side are you? Oh, shit. This guy's got a Trump stick run his car. Yeah. You know, it's, it's one of those things where at the end of the day, there just could be, um, it just could be a lot more civilized. I think we all, we can all agree to that one. Cool. Um, any, uh, local experiences that you would like to share on that whole journey, a quick story that was just like out of the blue or changed your, I'm sure the whole taking on capital thing was a pretty local experience. But that's a longer one, maybe. Yeah, that was a, that was a big one. That, that went down a lot differently than I had expected. Um, boys. That's a tough one to ask me because I have eight million stories and trying to pick one is always so challenging. Yeah, yeah. I'm good at answering questions. I'm not good at like, hey, come up with a great story. What would you say to an aspiring entrepreneur that has a head full of ideas, maybe not even the foggiest knack about what having a business looks like? Well, yeah, that's a good question. Uh, to, to that, I would say it applies to both someone who has an idea and wants to become an entrepreneur and wants to start off. And also people who currently have maybe a small business that's doing, doing well, doing poorly or doing well, like they're already engaged in kind of the first couple of years or you're just looking to start from scratch. The number one thing I would say and the thing I learned that had the biggest impact on the company was the planning side is I can't stress for me. Again, this is my experience, my opinion. I can't stress enough how important planning of everything is planning, you know, how, where your startup money comes from. How are you going to use it? What is your sales plan? What is your product plan? What's your, what's your plan for your product? So you have this idea, what is your plan for that idea? You have this money that you're able to get your hands on, whether it's friends, family, bank, what are you going to do specifically with that money? How long can it last? So for me, I look at how disciplined I am in regards to planning with the company and that is why we continue to have successes because there aren't any surprises. Well, there are some surprises, but they're very small and they no longer really send the business in a different trajectory. It's not a shockwave. Right. It's just a little bump. And so for me, if you have an idea before you jump in, start really thinking about what is my sales plan? What is the marketing plan? What is the manufacturing plan? What is the supply chain plan? What are those things look like? And if you're already engaged in a business and you've got a little bit of success or you're struggling? If you put a plan together, you get to see, this is why I'm having success. These are the areas that are really working, so I need to focus on continuing on that path. Or things aren't working and I'm feeling I'm pretty scared right now. I've got a lot of sleepless nights and putting together that plan, it will also show you why you're in that position. And that's not a bad thing because at the end of the day, even if you're not doing well and you can quantify why. Okay, now I know at least why I'm going to, if I keep going that same way, I'm going to keep going the same direction. How do I shift? And even if you don't know what the idea is, you can talk to people and figure, you can explain to them how you got to where you are and how they can maybe help you get out of it. And if you're successful, you can also talk to other people who can look at, you can explain to them easily, this is how I got to where I'm at and they may be able to guide you to a next step or at least allow you to continue down that, that same path. So planning, I know my wife hates how many times I use that term. If it was a drinking game, we'd be wasted. But planning, planning, planning and the more a mentor of mine used that term and to the point of exhaustion with me and I would get so frustrated with how much he would talk about planning. And now I'm that same person because I finally realized now that I've put it together and I've done it myself. I realized that's how you sleep at night because I'm going to sleep tonight because I know how I'm going to make payroll next week. I know how I'm going to make payroll two weeks from now. I know how we're going to buy that equipment. I know we're going to go grow this product 15% this quarter, whatever. And I know when things don't work out, because again, even in our position today, we don't, not everything is success. And I think that's another thing people need to understand. Businesses that are doing well, it doesn't mean everything they're doing as well. They're doing great. They have a product that's a tank. You still have spent all this money on maybe a marketing effort that just did not pan out at all. So it's not all wins. And so being able to understand what happened and we use the term all the time, intimate working knowledge. Like having that intimate working knowledge of why it did, whether it's good or bad, I know why it did that. And I now have a little insight to maybe either prevent it or reduce doing that again in the future, or in the case of success, equalling or exceeding that, that's a huge, huge component that I can't stress enough. And I think I know for me would have accelerated, I'd be retired by now. If you wanted to be anyway, had I done this, you know, 17 years ago, but that's for me, I think the takeaway for me, that would be from a business perspective. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the LOCO Experience Podcast. This is Kurt Baer, founder of the LOCO Think Tank, and host of the LOCO Experience. And I'm here with Mori Shar, LOCO Business Developer, and host of the LOCO Shorts episodes. We hope you heard some new ideas and business perspectives in this episode. Our mission in all that we do, including this podcast, is to share collaborative business ideas and solutions that uplift the business community. Subscribe and follow us for you listening to podcasts to get new episodes as they are released. If you're curious about LOCO, you can learn more about us at LOCOthinktakes.com, where you'll find more information about our chapters, business resources, and events for business owners and teenagers. If you're looking for perspective, accountability, and encouragement along your business journey, why not apply for a chapter near you today? Why not? Why not? Why not? We'll catch you next time on the in-depth LOCO Experience Podcast with me, Kurt. And with me, Mori, for Bite Size Business Lessons in the LOCO Shorts. Bye!