Dan Anderson is the President and CEO of Kingdom Way Ministries, and a Strategic & Leadership Coach with Five Capitals. Kingdom Way's mission is to help marketplace leaders thrive in business, life, and ministry. They do this through peer advisory groups, coaching, and community events that, in his words, connect Sunday’s inspiration to Monday’s perspiration. His business offers a membership model quite similar to LoCo Think Tank, but with a decidedly faith-oriented curricula.
Dan shares his personal challenges in his journey to turn a hibernating ministry into a stable personal income. Along the way, he struggled through a low period during the pandemic when he contemplated suicide. He shares with listeners the process of recovering his faith and hope from there, and how God blessed his perseverance.
I hope you’ll tune in and be both challenged and inspired by my conversation with Dan Anderson.
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Dan Anderson is the president and CEO of Kingdom Way Ministries and a strategic and leadership coach with five capitals. helping marketplace leaders thrive in life, business, and ministry is the mission at Kingdom Way, and they provide an abundance of services and connection events intended to further God's kingdom within the business community of northern Colorado and beyond. Dan's professional career began in ministry where he was a vital part of a pair of successful church plantings, and he later served for many years as the head pastor of Monument Bible Church in Scotts Bluff, Nebraska. Dan has an entrepreneur's heart, and when an opportunity arose to move to Northern Colorado and reinvigorate Kingdom Way, which had been in near hibernation, Dan took a leap of faith and moved his family. It hasn't been easy turning a hibernating ministry into a stable personal income. And Dan goes deep into the challenges he's faced along the way, and even described a low period during the pandemic when he contemplated. Dan shares his story in the process of recovering his faith and hope from there, and how God blessed his perseverance. Kingdom Way offers chapters quite similar to those at Loco Think Tank, but with a decidedly faith oriented curricula and as a treat to get behind the curtain with Dan as to his opportunities and challenges, which parallel my own in so many ways. I hope you'll tune in and be both challenged and inspired by my conversation with Dan Anderson. Welcome back to The Local Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt, be, and I'm here today with Dan Anderson and Joy to be here today with you, Dan. Um, Dan is the founder, president and CEO of Kingdom Way Ministries, as well as a strategic and leadership coach for five capitals. And so let's start with Kingdom Way, because that's, uh, what I know more about and, and there's probably more to share in that space. Uh, yeah. What is Kingdom Way for those that have never heard of you? Well, first of all, Kurt man, thank you for having me on today. I've been looking forward to this, and I just so applaud what you're doing and love what you're doing. Respect you greatly. So I'm just honored to be with you. Uh, yeah. So Kingdom Way, we, our, our main mantra is that we help marketplace leaders to thrive in life and business and ministry. Hmm. And we have a lot of environments. I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that. But, uh, what I've noticed over the years is there's a lot of CEOs, business owners, um, that uh, might be want to be faith driven, but they don't know how to incorporate that into their daily life. And there's a lot of them that are looking for greater freedom. Purpose, joy, organizational, uh, perspective impact, uh, but the clutch is slipping somewhere between theory and what they really want in reality. Yeah. And so that's really what all of our environments through Kenway Ministries trying to provide is, is to, to help them just gain traction in each of those areas that they really wanna develop in their lives personally. Emotionally, spiritually, you know, all those aspects of a personal life. Yeah. But also their professional, uh, life and just blending the two. So one of the things we talk a lot about is life, life integration, I'm hearing. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And so one of the things we talk a lot about is, uh, cuz cuz most of the people that are connected with us, not all but our, our pretty strong persons of faith in some capacity. And, uh, they really want to take Sunday's or weekend service if they go to church, for example, the inspiration they received there. And they wanna bring that into their Monday workplace. And we, so we kind of talk about helping them to bring Sunday's inspiration into Monday's Perspiration, I like it. Yeah, I like it. And so, And don't take this as anything but a compliment, but you kind of sound like a pastor Were were, were you a pastor before this calling found you? Uh, yeah. So I guess if I was in a meeting, I'd introduce myself as a recovering pastor. Are you, are you still a pastor? I think, or you could probably claim that title too, right? You must, you know, so once a pastor, always a pastor. I think, you know, I just, I still have a pastor's heart as a pastor for over 20 years. I've been doing this for 10 years now, but, but I feel like I've been a pastor in a lot of ways to the people that we connect with. You know, I, I remember distinctly, do you remember where we were when we met in person? I, I do. I remember at the Marriott here in Fort Collins and we were both meeting with a coach, kind of helping us troubleshoot things and we were kind of in the same position, just kind of starting off. Yeah. Yeah. And we had, you know, similar but different offerings and a lot of resonance. And I thought you were a really strange bird there, that Kurt I am, I am. But, but I, and that's true, but I've grown to love you over the years. Uh, it was just an acquaintance then, but yeah. We're a little bit more in that. Yeah. I think I had three chapters at the time or maybe had just, I had just kind of gone pro not long before, you know, at the time that I kind of got the fourth and fifth chapters going and I think you and I both had the look and the headlights, like, what in the world are we doing? When am I gonna make some money? It's part of mine. Little, little anxiety ridden in the outside. Yeah, yeah. Well, we're providers, you know, and, uh, well, um, so I think, let's, let's go to the, like, before we unfold all the different, cuz you've got like five different programs or seven just within the kingdom weight tent. Uh, let's talk about the, the roots of it. Like where you came up with a name. You, you would, you, you, you left a pastoring role in some capacity and I'm imagining it was to, to pursue. Mission vision in some way or, yeah. No, I, I have no idea. I, no, I appreciate, uh, you asking the question and I love talking about it. It's been quite a bit journey and, and you know, as I share the story, I think it provides maybe inspiration for people that may be stuck in a vocation or just, you know, sensing a smoldering discontent in their heart. They know that they're not quite in the right place, but they don't know exactly why. Yeah. And that's kind of where I found myself. So as I shared with you it as a pastor for 20 years, and I didn't think I would find myself doing anything different than that. Yeah. I felt a calling even was in junior high. I had a camp experience where I just felt God calling me, this is what I want you to do, and I pursued that. Well, I'm sure he did. But he might not have wanted you to do it forever. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh, thankfully he doesn't give us insight into what all he has for us. Otherwise we'd probably bail Right. Yeah. But I, but I, uh, I pastored her for 20 years. The first 10 years of that I was bivocational. Cause I started two churches in Kansas City. One church, uh, on the west end of Kansas City. One in just about a mile west of KU campus actually. Is that right? Downtown? Yeah, it was right off of the main, for those that might be familiar with KU town, uh, castle, uh, just, just a mile west from the campus, straight west. And, um, so during those times, uh, as some people that might be listening have started church, uh, here and there, or an entrepreneur venture, it's the most entrepreneurial venture. Just about Absolutely. You. you can't make money doing it. You have to do a side gig. And so I was a, I was a paralegal in a, a law firm. I climbed the, the highest I could at a company that trains, you know, insurance licensing, training, and I oversaw a hundred instructors Wow. Across the country and just got incredible marketplace experience in leadership. Yeah. While I was starting building network, which probably helped build your church in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, was it a start a cold startup? You weren't sponsored by another church organization? Or where did you get your, your summit? Yeah. Uh, you know, let's just, I wanna jump back. Can we jump back already and go back to middle school's? Sure. Sure. Dude. Um, Because I'm where, where did you come from? And I want to answer some of those questions because, uh, yeah, it sounds like maybe you weren't really from a deeply faith invested family before that camp. No, not at all. I, I, uh, grew up in Wisconsin in kind of a rural area in West Western, west Central, near Claire. Oh yeah. Big college town, right. There it is. Yep. Um, and I grew up in a, in a really, uh, a tough, difficult environment, as I'm sure a lot of people are listening, have, you know, I grew up with a pretty severe alcoholic father and, uh, created a lot of pain, physical, emotional abuse, and really just, Constant challenges. And you and siblings too? Yeah, I was the oldest of, of two other brothers. And, uh, so it was a really tough situation. We were very, I would say religious going to mainline denominational church that my dad was a part of. And then we just stopped going all together when he started drinking heavily. And uh, so I was about 10 years old and a friend of mine invite me to a small country church near where I grew up. And, and I just, I heard, uh, a message that I was captivated by and it's totally changed my life. And it was through this wordless book it call, it was called, uh, that's Just Colors and, uh, the Vaca. It was a vacation Bible school program. And, uh, the, uh, the, the speaker was sharing this wordless book, and he started with this black page of how that, you know, the Bible. And God says that we all have defaults in our systems, And it's a, it's a thing called sin. You know, we, we are all imperfect people and there's a consequence for that. Then he shared. Uh, but Jesus loved us so much and God became flesh. We're celebrating that in this Christmas season, you know, uh, and he loved us so much. The paid the ransom for us sin by dying in our place, and the cross was buried and rose again from the dead. And that if we believed in that, and we invited Christ to be the forgiven leader of our lives, that the white page would cleanse us as wide as snow and just give us a clean slate, a new purpose, and a, and then, you know, talked about the Gold Page. That not only a new purpose here and now, but assurance of eternal life to come. And then the green page, just some, Hey, if you're, if you're interested in this, these are some ways you grow. Oh, wow. Very simple. Wow. But it captivated me. And, and, uh, quite honestly, you know, that night I was laying in bed and I remember thinking about it and I, I was scared. I didn't want to go to hell Right. You know, so, but you know, I, so I, I, as I kind of like prayed a prayer, my own words, and, and immediately I sense a difference in my life. I, I sensed that there was someone else living inside of me. And I know that might sound weird to some of your listeners, but it was transforming. Yeah. And I became, you know, what Bible calls as a, as a new creature in Christ. And I, I had someone then, and this is where I started learning. It wasn't just about the eternal future, but here and now where I remember kneeling beside my bed and just crying out to God. And I felt his comfort and his presence in my life, it's kinda like, This. Then what kind of a moment? Um, I wanted to go back a little bit like, was your mom around too? Yeah. Yeah, she was. And, and was there, was your dad like always a drinker and then he just slowly worked into alcoholism or was there a defining moment that really created a change in him? Yeah, we, uh, I think, uh, A couple things. One is he, um, he always had a dream of building his own house. He was an amazing, masterful carpenter, and so he built our old house pretty much from scratch. He outsourced just a few things, but, uh, and so the stress of that plus working, being laid off and just not knowing where to turn, then, you know, as, as you and I know, uh, we become the sum of the five people we hang around the most. Right. That quote, you know? Yeah. The other unemployed guys are hanging out at, down at the tavern. And so that's where I'm at. Yeah. And so he started hanging out with some of the guys at the tavern, hanging out, hung out with a guy, uh, who was a World War II vet, and come to find out later, I didn't know this till later, but my dad was, uh, uh, actually hid it from everybody, but ended up going into Vietnam. And that didn't come out until, wow. 17 years later in his marriage. Wow. And, uh, and no one knew about it. Some trauma there probably then. And so he found in this World War II vet a, a comrade. Right. And he was a heavy drinker. Right. And so that just kinda, and he became a heavy drinker pretty much overnight in my memory. Which is a shame because like, at least part of that reason is probably because he kept all that bottled up. If he could have just felt comfortable to, to share Yeah. What he was struggling with, with, with, with your mom, with an. Friend somebody from church, you know? Absolutely. It's much healthier. Well, as you and I know, I mean, what you do in your group, what I do in my group's, uh, uh, uh, a ceo, a business owner, manager or what have you, uh, you can't divorce your personal life from your professional life. Yeah. And uh, and in the environments we're trying to provide people to have that place where they can share anything and everything is so vital to their survival and working through. All of us have baggage Yeah, yeah. You know, and to be able to have a safe, confidential, collaborative council environment to process that would be at a game changer for my dad. I, uh, I joined the Rotary Club when I was still relatively young. Now I'm kind of like in the sweet spot for joining Rotary, but at the time I was still in my thirties and in banking and, and I remember going to a couple events and. Oh, well these community leader type responsible people, they like to party too. you know, and that's not a, anything other than an observation that, that people have lots of different pursuits and interests and challenges. And we got somebody knocking out the door. I'll get that. I got some new swag. Yeah, right. it's swag season at Loco. Think Tank. Uh, we've got a, as I was sharing with you, we've got a new brand coming out, but, uh, our listeners could not see anything yet. So Mom's a word man. Mom's a word. Um, so where did we leave off? We really left off with, you know, if this, then what, right? Like a kind of a shift in your person and, and really, uh, uh, a decrease of that probably loneliness that you felt as being the oldest and most responsible brother and, you know, starting to turn into a man. How old when you were 10. How old were your little brothers? So I had a brother that, well would've been eight or nine cuz he was about a year and a half younger than me. And, um, And then one that was, uh, just born. Oh, wow. 10 years younger. Oh, wow. Uh, we had a oops baby in my family too. Maybe that's not the case in yours. I shouldn't make assumptions. Um, so like, talk to me about what changed in your life, even right away. Yeah. Well, like I said, uh, there was a notable difference. I felt, I felt like a new person and I knew that the presence of God and hi his person was with me all the time. I just sensed that. And so I started going to church a lot just to learn more. And eventually my mom and my brother started coming and they, they, uh, had similar, uh, experiences and gave their lives to the Lord, which made a huge difference in our family over time. But then I, I, I, we didn't have a lot of money. Yeah. A lot. But I really wanted to go to camp and so if we found a camp through my church, then this, this kind of leads to the experience where I first got my sense of being a pastor as, um, I memorized had to memorize 250 Bible verses to go for free. Okay. So I did that one year and then, then the next year, uh, did another 250. Wow. And I got one of my first bibles, uh, for memorizing 500 versus scripture, you know, the little New Testament bibles and Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And then what was one of those ex at camp, you know, uh, someone was speaking and I just remember just a fire burning in my heart of, uh, a sense of the Lord speaking to my heart. Not audibly, but it's like just how I have helped you in all of these things in your life. I want you to help others. and what he's doing was kind of an example of, of what you could be doing. Exactly. And, and you know, at that time I really had a, a heart for, you know, I was kind of forced to go to some Al-Anon meetings and different therapy things and, and you start meeting, so it was public that your dad was struggling with his alcohol by a little later there? Oh, absolutely. As a matter of fact, he ended up in prison two different times. Oh wow. Uh, because of just related offenses. Like one time he had had way too much, he's, he's deceased now, so, uh, he's, look, he's looking down from heaven hearing these stories and glad that he's there. Yeah. But he had way too much to drink and he was just, you know, we lived out in the country and there he went out with a, with a shotgun and starts shooting down at the neighbors, even though it would've never reached them. And you know, you start just making a ruckus. Yeah. When you start mixing alcohol and firearms. never a good combination. You get in trouble really quick. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty serious. So what kind of a uhs. Student were you and were you into sports and Yeah. You know, how, what was that kind of, uh, middle school into high school kind of season like and, and how big was this? This was a town outside of Eau Claire, is that right? Yeah, it's called Elk Mound. And it was, you know, maybe the, the high school probably had 400 students total. Okay. 500. So not, not big at all. I, I was a, I was a pretty athletic person, but we had, we had amazing, Athletes in my particular grade. And so, uh, I played sports, but it wasn't real into that. I started working early, you know, like I said, we didn't have a lot. So I pro I started working on a farm, uh, when I was 13 and, uh, in, in rural Wisconsin. So like that, like mucking dairy cows or like shoveling, you know what and, uh, you know, dairy cows. They had, you know, 150 cows and milk twice a day, stuff like that. They're probably making hay and different things too. Yeah, yeah. And just, uh, doing, doing all that stuff, that was probably, you know, I'm a farm kid as you know, but I have to think that that was a pretty formative Oh yeah. Time and just seeing the world work in a different way than what you can experience in the city. I, I worked hard. Uh, I learned how to work hard and, and I had a, I was privileged to have a boss who I'm still connected with today, 40 years later almost. That's cool. That, uh, That was, uh, uh, number one, he was a Christian, wasn't perfect by any means. Uh, but he, he just took me under his wing. Yeah. And, uh, gave me an opportunity, taught me how to work hard. It was a person of character probably Sal Void in your life, in that AmpaCity. And, and, and so ironically now, you know, especially this time of year, you know, we do kind of, uh, year end giving campaigns for the nonprofit side. And, uh, and he still is a significant supporter because he just loves what we're doing. That's awesome. That's awesome. So, like, leave me off to school, I guess, or, yep. Did you go to college right away? Yeah, I went to college. Like I said, uh, knew the trajectory I was going. So I found a, a bible college. I had a pastor that kind of took me under his wing when I was a teenager that really had an influence in my life and he had gone there, so I went to it as Calvary Theological Seminary in Kansas City. That's how I ended up there. Yep. Uh, so that's where I went to school and that's where I stayed kind of my first 10 years, uh, starting those two churches I mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about those churches. Uh, were they co-branded? Uh, and like, like you said, it was kind of from scratch here. Yeah. So the first one was a denominational, uh, entity, and I joined another pastor who had. So I didn't start it cold from scratch, but they probably had 60 people or something and Okay. And it went to 500 people in just a couple years. Wow. Yeah. Just exploded. And did you share the denomination? Yeah, it was an Evangelical free denomination. Okay. So like Faith Church here? Yeah. Faithy free over there. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Same denomination. Okay. Uh, and then, You know, the, the, it grew so fast, so quick. It kind of really changed in terms of my fit. And about that time I had a couple other pastors that, uh, I'd known of from school a little bit that was starting a church and it was more of a hot start. It was a, a bigger church in the area and they took like 200 people from that church Oh wow. And planted one across the city. Right, right. And so I was a part of that. And that was a lot of fun too. Yeah. And grew that 200 into 500 or 800 again or whatever. Yeah. Got up, got up to almost 800. And then, uh, by the time I helped 'em, uh, kind of do their giving campaigns to buy 20 acres of land help help Oh, like a capital campaign? Yeah. To build a new building, all that kind of help lead the charge on some of that. And then, um, and what was that? A team of like three, four. Three. Three full-time pastors. And that was a great, great way to do it. Yeah. We had such, I mean, as I look back, all the team settings I've been involved in, that was probably the most fun, uh, team situation I've ever been in. Cuz everybody had different gifts. Everybody celebrated each other's gifts Yep. And leaned into it. And we just had fun. And what, can you share who those guys were and, and what their giftings were in yours? Yeah. So there was one, there was one, uh, so at the time I was pretty young. I mean, right. You were 22 or something, I suppose. Maybe I was, uh, I don't remember. Yeah. Mid twenties. Upper twenties. Yeah. Mid twenties. And, um, so one of, one of the, the pastors really good. He was the teaching pastor. Mm-hmm. I still spoke, but I wasn't the main communicator. Yep. And the other guy was really kind of, of. systems and structure behind the scenes, uh, running a lot of details. Operations. All operations. Yep. Yeah. And then, then I was really, I was kind of a face guy. I did worship, I did young adults ministry. Uh, I was a, I was a team builder. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so like you had people wanted to be around, you were kind of the, the Yeah. Attractant that kind of brought people around that sometimes were part of it. I, I didn't know what I was doing. A lot of times. same, same. But I, but I could attract people. I could find people and their gifts and find 'em a slot and people just loved being in team. We share that in common so much. I, uh, I was just telling the story today of when I left Bank of Colorado in Windsor. To go to Bank of Colorado in Colorado Springs, cuz they had acquired some banks down there. And my boss, uh, Tom Pranger, if you're listening, uh, Tom, uh, said something along the lines of, you know, you not that experienced yet. And you know, you're not the most productive banker, but everybody sure likes working with you around here, so we're gonna miss you to that. That's a valuable commodity for sure. If, if people couldn't have a more enjoyable workplace environment just because of that ingredient. And I'm not saying that we're all, that, you know, we're as annoying and full of sin as anybody else is, but it is the way we're wired, kind of. Yeah. Well, and why we've been able to do what we've done in some ways. Well, and, and even in thi this season of my life, and I, and you probably talk, talked to the people you coach too, a lot. That it, you know, when they're trying to think of finding the right hires mm-hmm. you know, competence is huge. Character is huge, but we often underestimate chemistry. Mm-hmm. and, and if you don't have chemistry, it can be a miserable experience. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I'm, I'm hard pressed sometimes decide, which is more, I think character obviously is most important, but if you get someone that, that's great chemistry, but maybe not the best incompetence, you still live with that. Mm-hmm. you get a high competent person and then someone doesn't have chemistry and causing a lot of, uh, emotional, emotional to toil in the culture. That's a big problem. Well, and that's clutch in, in these kind of small groups that you and I both build and things like that. Uh, we should probably zero in it on that at some point here. Well, yeah, for sure. Uh, just kind of contrasting and comparing because, uh, you know, for two people that do as much of similar things as we both do, we've had. An abundance stance toward each other's, uh, efforts, I think the whole time. Absolutely. I think it'd be fun to talk about because, uh, I respect you a lot, man, and I, and that's, that's part of what I've grown a lot in is like there is ample opportunity out there. Uh, I know if I could bless you, like you're blessing me by being a part of this program is a, uh, um, that everyone wins. Yeah. Yeah. I, I like to joke, uh, at local think tank, we look for the win, win, win win, but we'll settle for the win, win win if necessary. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess let's, uh, Let's come into the next phase of your journey. What mm-hmm. was that leading up to No, you must have had a chapter or two yet before you even Colorado. Yeah. So it's interesting how things have worked out. It's been kind of 10 year segments, like 10 years of the, you know, working in the marketplace, starting a couple churches, a 10 years lead pastor. And it's almost been 10 years now, uh, with Kingdom Way. Yeah. Are you getting ready to do something totally different? Yeah. Yeah. That mum's the word in that. No, no, no. Not totally different, but I think some new things coming that's gonna, you've got some growth changed Belo. Yeah. Awesome. That I'm really excited about that I can't talk a lot about yet, but stay tuned. All right. Sounds, sounds good. So, so lead pastor. Yeah. So I was in Western Nebraska, sorry. Um, in, uh, in a non-denominational church and western Nebraska, like alliance or something, or, uh, Scott's Bluff. Scott's bluff. You know, as far as towns in Nebraska go, that's a pretty darn nice town. That's a perfect way of saying it. Cause I never thought I'd end up in Nebraska, but if there was anywhere. that I'd like to live in Nebraska, Scott's Bluff was, was the place. Cause you know, it's cool. Probably a lot of people have, you know, outside of the Colorado front range, most people have been to Scott's Bluff. But if there's listeners around the country, most of them haven't. Yeah. Uh, cuz it's not really on the way to anywhere. Uh, describe Scott's bluff to somebody that's never heard of it before. Well, it, it, it's a, it's a destination place. It, it's interesting because on top of the bluff, so it's, it's actually part of, because you, a lot of your listeners, I know it's part of the value program too, providing history of cultural things around here. Right? Yeah. So that was right where the Oregon Trail went through. Oh right. And so there's, there's some historic, uh, uh, a little monument National Park there, and then you can go to the top of the bluff. You could actually drive and then walk around on top of it. And, and I, I, I, I did that a lot. And there was people from around the world Yeah. That you, you'd hear different. That's pretty cool. You'd hear different languages up there because they're, they want to go to see it. Right. Which makes it a different part of Nebraska because most of the rest of Nebraska. Is pretty much white bread every time. You know? I hope I didn't offend it. Anybody that, but There's some awesome places actually. I love like the Valentine Cherry County region up there. It's pretty, it's got its own beauty. Yeah, yeah. But, but it's kind of like a, you know, some, so I got my, my wife is from Bermuda and so Oh really? Okay. One, one of her uncles, uh, has come to the US to go to like dude ranches. Oh, right. Because he loves riding horse and it's like this epic experience. So if you want an epic experience, kind of a western, uh, dude, ranch type of field, go to Western Nebraska and Scott's Bluff and Scott's B Bluff is what, 10 or 20,000 people? 30. Uh, it's a little bigger than that, huh? It's been a while, man. But I think with Scott's BLI gearing, it's probably 35 40 together. Okay. Yeah. Which is a very respectable town size. Yeah. You know, that's what Longmont was when we moved here at least. Yeah. So, um, so non-denominational church. This one wasn't a plant. You already had a pretty large congregation and they did a big search or something, or you met somebody who knew somebody and they said, oh, so actually is one of the, one of the coolest parts of the story. So I've got, I've got this guy that I've affectionately labeled as Shep, which stands for Shepherd. He's, he's been my pastor, I would say for over 40 years. The same guy in Wisconsin. Uh, we kept in touch and I'd call him for counsel and, you know, I kind of hit a tight spot and I'd call him, we stay connected. And, and he was looking for someone to be the associate pastor and then transition to be the, become the lead pastor. Mm-hmm. and uh, and he was the lead pastor. He was already, yeah. Okay. And so he asked me and we went through that process and transitioned and became the lead pastor. He became my associate pastor. Oh wow. That's an interesting, yep. Um, talk to me about like, what that training kind of looks like. Like what I, I'm sure there's different things based on giftings in different churches, but what does a lead, is that like a CEO basically, or the president of an organization? Or is it more Yeah, so I mean, not that we can compare it to business, to business and church or whatever, but, well, I, I think, yeah, I would say it's like a, uh, in some ways a CEO that has very high compassion care for people. You know, uh, not all CEOs have that. You're right, right. Some do, some don't. Um, Here, here, here's one of the reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing now is because most pastors never get any training of what it takes to lead a sizable organization. Mm-hmm. I think there, it wasn't a huge church, but you know, we got up to maybe 500 or over and had 15 staff. Right. So I mean, you think about that. Oh yeah. I mean, running a company of 15 people, that's the challenge. You know, so think about running, running a church with 15 staff people, with everybody. You're being your boss. Well, and 25 volunteers. Exactly. right? That's a big part of the labor force and the church a lot of times. Oh, absolutely. So, so that's what kind of started me down the trajectory that I, that I'm really on now is, is, is I, I had a bent for leadership and a, and I think a gifting in it, but I'd never been taught. Yeah. So in 2006 I started going to some different sizable leadership conferences. I spent peop some time with coaches, uh, just trying to eat up whatever I could. And then I, some of my best mentors, I read a. And so I just started reading a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden I started be, I asked being asked to speak and train other pastors, and I'm doing conferences in Ghana and Liberia. Wow. And Trinidad and Tobago and, and you know, over the period of, you know, six, seven years and the things that I was learning and, and, and I didn't know this at the time, Kurt, but I, but I, um, probably, probably the last five years of pastoring there, I really came to realize, uh, on some new things about myself. I had this entrepreneur bent to me Yeah. That I never fully realized and owned. And, and that was one of the reasons why I started feeling a smoldering or discontent there, because I couldn't do new things. Right. Uh, you were there to be, you were hired to be the stable transition to the next stable transition to the next stable transition. Yeah. And moving from a situation where you're starting churches like, let's try this today. Well that didn't work. Let's try something else. right. You know, to a, to a place that had been established for 20 years. Right. Well, and people are baked into their patterns and, and their wheel tracks to use an Oregon trail reference. And you start coming and being like, uh, yeah, great, great word. Picture, man. Yeah. So, so that was hard. And uh, uh, but the other thing I started realizing, I know cuz you'll probably be asking this too, is, is, you know, how did I start thinking about something different? Well, for every year I would pray in my vacation and just, God, what do you have for me? Try to get clarity in the next year. And, and every year I felt, This, you know, that, that, uh, I call it kind of the, the prompting of the spirit and the spirit's whisper saying, Dan, do everything that I've, I've called you to do here with full hearted gusto, but just be prepared cause something else is coming. Hmm. And for three years I sense that every year. And uh, and then the other thing I started, I started doing a lot of thinking about, uh, uh, God, how can we have a deeper impact on my community? I started a, helped start a organization called Valley Evangelical Pastor Fellowship, which is comprised of 25 churches. And I think we the full, so soul the soul. Focus of that was to try to find the things we can, we couldn't do on our own, that we could do together. Hmm. Cool. And that's like all the Scotts Bluff, Garing regional churches, kind of, yep, yep. Anyone that had similar, you know, even close-minded. It didn't have to dot, you know, be, be a Right. If they were snake handling, you maybe weren't seeking about kind of thing. Exactly. But, but that was really cool and a great leadership leadership experience. When we started this thing, a nonprofit called Love and Action. When I started my, uh, food trucking business, I tried to start a food truckers association for the same kind of, reasoning that I wanted that group to be able to learn from each other. And you know, I was like, don't go someplace and cater for $13 a plate, get 1820 because that's what caterers charge. Come on, you're rooted my opportunity here. But anyway, we have that I desire to mobilize and yeah. And, and, and so, and so aggregate that was part of my discovery of these gifts that I had that was kind of laying dormant. Yeah. Of being able to collect people together. And, and, and I, and I've always been this kind of, I call it reluctant Moses, where where God gives me these things and, and I was like, ah, man, this has gotta be someone else better for that. Right? And I'm, I can't do that. But he just kept pushing me and I said, okay, well I'll do my best. And, and it was just cool to see what gotta happen, happen there. But as I was trying to pray through a period of nine months of doing some fasting and prayer on and off, I was like, God, there's gotta be more things we can do to impact this community and beyond. And I had really global vision. Um, and, and I'd been invited to speak for a conference in Liberia with 3000 pastors around that time. and, uh, some pretty cool stories there too, if we get into it. But anyway, I, I, I realized, did you stay humble through all that Cause I know my, my sometimes my head gets kind of big when people start heaping praise on me and think I'm extra smart. Well, uh, I think I've been doing okay so far, but you never know that, that's why you have to have good people in your life to challenge you. But fair, I, uh, I, um, so this is what happened is I, I, and the way I share it with people is I realized I was committing, committing pastoral malpractice. Mm-hmm. That sounds exciting. And, and what I mean by that is, even now, when I had the chance to talk to pastors, I ask them, what is your one job description that's unique to you that no other person of faith has? Hmm. And usually they can't answer the. but it comes from Ephesians four where it says that the pastor's job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Not to do it all themselves. Hmm. But to find the gifts and talents and, and train up other people to do the work. By the way, I just had a thought, I might as well share it. How many of those 500 verses that you memorized back in middle school, do you still have at hand? Uh, a lot of 'em. not, maybe not verbatim, but I got the concepts and, and, uh, close to the chapter verse, That's fair. That's fair. Uh, so, so, but through that season of praying and fasting and all these things, I was learning what, what the pastor role of my practice part is that I was, we were doing a lot of great things and community impact. I had a lot of freedom to be involved in the community, but I realized, uh, that I was missing the boat. if I was trying to get people to be more devoted followers, uh, I was missing the boat on 60% of their waking hours of their life. Hmm. By not doing hardly anything to equip them in their workplace. When? That Monday morning? The Monday morning? Yeah. Yeah. And, and uh, and I read some things like a book called The Monday Morning Atheist. Oh, okay. And, and the concept was how many people say they're believers, but really when it comes to Monday, they live live like atheists. Yeah. And, and I met the ceo, we're partners with him now. Oh wow. And, uh, he, he spent some time with me on the phone and some calls, and he really challenged me. And, uh, I, I started using some of his materials to, and I started a group. This group in Scott's Bluff turned into 15 business owners. Oh, wow. I wasn't even target business owners. Well, we had, uh, you might have seen in Cheyenne, if you're driven past there or Rapid City, it's, uh, it's, it's called um, Floyd's Trucks. Floyd's Trucks. Yep. I know Michael Gillum. I actually, yeah, so So his dad? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, mark was in this group. Awesome. And then we had the executive director of Chamber of Commerce there. Well, she wasn't in that group, but she was involved. A lot of things we did, uh, the hr, uh, director of the hospital, just all these amazing people and. Okay. Lord, I wasn't expecting this. We, we, we met every week for five years. Wow. That group's still going on today. Wow. And, and that was part of this like every week, every week for an hour. Yeah. We'd meet six 90 minutes, 30 to 7 38. Wow. But the transformation I experienced from those guys investing in me and me investing in them Right. Was unbelievable. And then we started doing a monthly, uh, thing we called Common Pursuit, which is, you're familiar with that name? Yep. Yep. And, uh, and then, uh, an annual leadership conference for pastors and leaders. Hmm. Uh, or pastors and business leaders. Yeah. And it just started exploding. Hmm. And so, I wasn't looking for this, but I looked online and I found this place in Fort Collins called, uh, uh, kingdom Way Companies. Oh. And, uh, it was, it was a guy. Uh, I'll let you, if you wanna get into the full story that we can, but anyway, I, he had It sounds pretty intriguing. Yeah, it is intriguing. Oh, wait, before we do that, let's come back to that. Okay. Because you mentioned a, a wife from Bermuda and she was already tagging along with you here. Where did you pick her up along this journey? Uh, we met Journey, we met Bible college, man, is that, oh, way back when. Okay. They called the Kel Bridal College Was, was she a student there as well? She was, yeah. Okay. Yeah, she was studying, uh, uh, education and wanted to become a teacher, so, well, we'll learn more about her, um, in the family segment, but yeah. Uh, can you share her name and, yeah. Iona. Iona. Yep. I remember. I always struggle with it, so thank you. Yeah. Hi Iona. I think you're great by the way. Yeah, she is awesome. Been married for 31 years and, um, so let's jump back to that Kingdom Way companies. Um, so you found out this company in, in Fort Collins, Kenway companies, and I don't, I think I've heard a bit of this story before, but you know, if you can take us through in Yeah. Three or four minutes, I think it's really Absolutely. So, so I, I called them because I said, man, I'm drowning here. There's credible opportunity and I don't know what to do with it. Mm-hmm. And so, so Jim's story, I'll try to be really brief on this. Jim Dismore is his name. Oh. A lot of people who have been at Fort Collins would recognize the name. Was he a banker or something? Uh, he ran Ultimate Support. Oh yeah, sure. Systems, which is now, uh, heritage Christian School. Is that right? Yep. He sold, uh, that building, so 2008, nine. He had a really rough end. I used to play basketball at Herd as Christian Pretty, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And uh, and so he had to kind of close up, uh, his end of the business and he sold the, but he, he's always, but he was, he was one of the, the business leaders and founders from around here that a lot of the talent that after Ultimate Support was gone, uh, filtered into other organizations and only made them strong. Absolutely. For what it's worth. So, Hey Jim we don't know each other, but I, I got a lot of, and there's a, there's a lot of leaders I could mention right now that know Jim, that, that, that Jim has an indelible impact on him. Yeah. Yeah. They have very successful businesses and careers and ministries. I would not be surprised at all. Yeah. And so, uh, so I, I called him up. I came, he was very gracious. Came down and he became a really good friend and a mentor of mine. And he'd come up to Scotts Bluff and spent some time with me and, and, uh, and then we, he, he did some workshops with me in Scotts Bluff. Then he, so his story real quick, cuz uh, he was one of the original Walmart executives Oh, wow. He had been hired by Sam Walton when there was only three Walmarts. Wow. And he started over a thousand Walmarts across the country. Okay. Into China even. So he was a believer, his story is a, he was a believer that whole time, but not really bridging that mon Sunday to Monday gap. Yeah. And so he's opening a three story store in China. With 250 some checkout lanes. Oh God. And, uh, and people. And, and God just got a hold of his heart and said, Jim, what are you doing this for? What eternal value does all this have? Right. And that ultimately led him to leaving and he wanted to find a business that he could make it a ministry first, but a viable products and services. And that's, that's what ultimate support was really. And I don't remember, but he, he grew up to almost 300 employees. If, if I'm getting that close. It seems pretty, pretty close. Similar, yeah. But he had created this culture that it was a ministry and a lot of people were impacted. He gave a lot of, I mean, matter of fact, he wouldn't like me saying this, but, uh, Jim, if you're listening, I'm doing it because you need to be honored. Uh, he, he gave 75 million away in his lifetime. Wow. And so much so he was one of these guys generous to a fault that, you know, when things went sour, kind of with the 2008 and nine crisis and other things that I won't share here but to happen, um, Uh, he, he did In some ways. He gave too much. He did? Yeah, he did Well, and you have to be a steward of yourself sometimes too. But, you know, I, I think, uh, he'll have, bless you, Jim, he'll have amazing eternal rewards, you know, so we still, we're still good friends and keep in contact. But anyways, the, the story, that's how it started. Uh, and he had been looking for and interviewed people across the country to kind of turn the mantle over to, because he had started this Kingdom Way company. Yeah, I'm sorry. So, so he developed a seminar called Five Principles Doing Business God's Way. Oh, okay. And he did it 50, 60% of his time around the world. Oh wow. And so he developed these tools in kind of a framework. And then when I met him, he had just started kind of dabbling a little bit into, so he had worked with an organization called F cci. Hmm. Fellowship Companies for Christ International and was on their national board. And that, that time, you know, 20 years, 15 years ago, they had groups up and down the front range here and he was really involved with that. But then when I met him, he wasn't doing much with that, but started dabbling with kind of half day coaching consulting groups. He did, he did a lot of consulting on the side through Kingdom Way companies. Um, uh, but then started the nonprofit side. And so when I, when you said I'm founder really, I was in the sense of Kingdom Way ministries. Yeah. Uh, because we, we changed and we add a lot of dynamics to it, but kept some of the similar concepts. Yeah. And, and it had been dormant, not doing anything for five years. Oh, I see. Or more so, and you guys got connected and it's like, I can, I can re. Breathes fresh life into this brand and that'll feed the entrepreneurial itch that I've got going and yeah. And, and be part of the legacy that Jim was trying to create too, right? Absolutely. I assume he was towards the later part of his career by that time and, and you know, when you're whatever age, you don't necessarily wanna work that hard anymore or have the juice to do it if you wanted to. Yeah. Well, and he had taught a lot of people and he, I mean, he made billions of dollars for people he consulted with. He consulted with companies across the country and, um, and. He, he just added a lot of value to people. Um, I forgot what we're talking about. Well, just how that opportunity unfolded and, and why, like, you, you were that transition step and how that came Yeah. Came to be, oh, that's what I was gonna say is, is, you know, so any. Consultant or coach worth his weight and gold is gonna try to help people think about succession strategies. Right. Right. And and how many people do we know that never get there. Yeah. And the fifth level leader, you know, finding, finding that, uh, person. And so he had never found that he had interviewed 20 people across the country over the years. Well, he'd been looking and just didn't really find anything. Yeah. And, you know, and I wasn't looking to do that. And he didn't think I was the guy either. But we became friends for four or five years and he finally said, in those three years I was, I sentenced. So he said, Dan, I think you're the guy. Do this. Hmm. And, and so by then, you know, he didn't have a dime to pay me Right. But at least, uh, uh, you can adopt my expensive baby if you want. Or Exactly. So it was a calling for sure. Cause we came down and, uh, like I said, 10 years ago, the summer, it'll be 10 years. Wow. We lived in a space. Was that a big leap of faith for, for you and your, and your wife and your family too? Right. I had twin boys that were in junior high at the time. Wow. Daughter, that was three or five, something like that. Oh, wow. Yeah. So we, uh, first three months we didn't know how we're gonna, I, I didn't even know, I didn't have a strategy. I just knew Guy was calling us. Right. And we lived in his basement as a whole family for three months and circle me this, uh, when was this? 2013. 2013. Okay. Summer of 2013. So real. I mean, when did we meet? 20 15, 20 16. Somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. A couple years later. Mm-hmm. So, okay. And so the, the economy was recovering from the whole recessionary things and stuff like that. And, uh, here we are. Yeah. What'd you think of Fort Collins when you got here? Oh, right. You've probably been here visiting him and stuff. I had, and, uh, you know, my wife and I come down here on occasion for a little getaway. It's only two and a half, three hour drive, you know? Mm-hmm. I just loved it here and never dreamed we'd live here. dream come true. Amen. Except for the whole no income, no prospects for immediate income thing. I gotta admit, it was hard. It was hard to enjoy some of the sceneries most days. you know what that's like for sure. Head down. Head down. And so, you know, we can maybe talk a little bit through some of the, the growth and change in Kingdom way and maybe even some of the, I tried this, it didn't really work and mm-hmm. uh, 1, 1, 1 of my recollections from that first meeting with you and I is you had these amazing materials and folders and they were really nice and all these different things and stuff, and I had like a one page Google or a Word document from my application, no structure, but I had three groups and you had one, and you were like, that's funny. Why do I have all these? I was like, I, I don't know. I'm just, I'm just doing my thing. So, so we, we, we both have a little envy of each other. You you environ my materials and I, now I'm admiring what you're doing, man. Well, for sure. I've been, you know, when, when I go to your events and various things and I see you've got, you know, 3, 4, 500 people in a room and stuff, and I've, I've tried to do some big events and that's not my, It's not my jam, but, you know, uh, so different talents and, and yes, I've actually envied your brand and, and all that stuff really? Well. It's not mine. It's not, I don't want it, but yeah, vice versa, probably too. Yeah. No, that's good, man. So, um, yeah, take me through that. Like what, like what were some of the first efforts to try to get. Um, you know, revenue ultimately cuz you got a non-profit and a for-profit. Is that true or? It was kind of, it was for Jim, it was a, a for-profit and a non-profit. His consultancy was a for-profit. Yep. And so I came on board as, as solely on the non-profit side. And I said, you know, I, I have some things and ideas I'd like to do with, with not just business owners but pastors. And so I, we rebranded it Kingdom Way Ministries and kind of some, you know, I kept a lot like some of the, the fancy materials. Those were gems, they were leftover rooms. Yeah, I guess so. I was just leveraging that He had a big print running. Yeah. Whatever. Exactly. And like I said, you know, he funded a lot of the, the ministry side of things out of his company proceeds. Right. And uh, so yeah, so when we started, I didn't like, like you man, you don't. I got a dream. I think this is what Yeah. What I need to do. There's a need to know how to do it. But we started, uh, I, I, I actually, the first three years, um, we found a few people. He introduced me to a lot of my new, one or two of them. Um, and we did a half day, uh, we called them Kingdom Leadership Councils then. Okay. And, uh, I created, uh, I just, that was kind of the mastermind kind of thing that's similar to what we do or no. Yeah, absolutely. But it was probably a little bit more, as I look back on it, a little bit, little bit more content driven. Right, right. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, so, but that's what I knew and I thought I could add value to, to really trying to bring the spiritual, personal development along the pa uh, professional development. Mm. And so I just try to stay a month ahead. I ask people to sign up for 10 months. Cause I needed a couple months breather for year end things. And I create, I, I created, uh, it turned out 30 modules of curriculum. Oh wow. With video suites, with tools, and they're all on our line online now. Wow. And is this, you just kind of distilling a lot of the different. books and seminars and curated a lot of my own stuff. Yeah. And, but one of the first part was a focus on, so we focus on a different Bible character mm-hmm. And one of the life and leadership lessons that we learned from that. And it was a very kind of in depth study as well as a, a scripture reading where they did five days a week where they'd read about that. Yeah. And then the, the leadership development, business development side would dovetail into some of those common themes. Right, right. And I got different people that would do a video. And, and, and also Richard Gerland, a lot of people would know him. He came and shared with us. He used the podcast recently. Yep. And, uh, so he came and talked about trust one time and then had the, uh, CEO of, uh, Uh, jbs, uh, chicken side, what's that called now? Tyson? Yeah. Well it wasn't Tyson. It was, anyway, he, he, he was a Pilgrim Pilgrims. Pilgrim's Pride. Pilgrim's Pride. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So the CEO I'd met, I was, uh, speaking at LifePoint Church, uh, for the pastor when he was on sabbatical. Yeah, yeah. And I met this guy named Bill. Love it. And uh, yeah, he, uh, he, I think I might have came to one, to that one because he's been a speaker for one of your big events. He was one of our speakers. Yeah. And so he did a couple videos with us and so this guy inherited, uh, pilgrims in, in a bankruptcy situation and turned into 8 billion in five years. Nice job. So, so, you know, these were the kind of things, kind of people, gals bringing me to contribute to these modules. Right. And you're just, Asks them, Hey, would you be willing to spend a couple hours like working on these modules and some scripting and stuff you see, or whatever, and they're like, sure, sounds good. And, and I got a guy, we had really quality video guy, that young guy that was in college, uh, trying to get it going. And, uh, so he gave us a great deal. And so we still have all that. And you know, what I learned from that experience was several things. At the end of that, I went back to everyone, everyone would re-up for another year, another year. And I, and I went back to, everyone had coffee 1 0 1. I said, you know, what was it kept, kept you coming back and. uh, you know, it's not what a, a curator or a creative wants to hear, but it wasn't the content Right. And, and so I learned a lot from that experience. One is I got burnt down on doing that. Right. And, uh, so I tried to be smarter and tap into other people's content and create the connection, which that's what I heard from those, those, those people who are part of that first group is, is number one. Every month I, I lose my way and I need to recalibrate my compass to true north every month. And, and I lose track of what matters most in terms of my faith too. And, and like you, I'm experienced this over and over again. I'm sure with the people who are in your groups is, uh, it's so easy for leaders to exist in isolation. Yeah. They feel the weight, the loneliness, and the loneliness. And it was just like, wow, I got a grip that understands my world. Yeah. And then I can vent on that I know will support me and then I get ideas and counsel from Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so that, those were the good things and we learned from that. And I, and I. Seeking to, you know, it's kind of one of these things that I, I didn't have a grandiose vision of what the end, you know, start with the end in mind. And if we circle back to that group that you met with weekly Yeah. That was kind of what that was providing in your, your life. It wasn't necessarily super content driven, it was relational driven. Yeah. Very much. And, and I didn't, you know, we don't know. We don't know. Right. And you get in a room with people, people that, that are better than you and different things. It's like, wow, I didn't know that. Right, right. Yeah. Well, we all live in our own little tunnels, you know? Yeah. And I cut you off there. I don't know. No, I was just gonna say, I didn't seat out, seek to be an event, uh, organization and I still wouldn't describe ourselves as that. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but, but you know, I think it was probably, Five years ago this fall, maybe six. Um, I, again, you know, I, I've never felt like I've had clear, big vision of the total end in mind. I've just, I've gotten this vision of the next year, two years, three years, and I just try to run to that. Yeah. And, and so we, I thought, you know, Man, there's, there, there isn't a need for an environment, you know, like an fca, which fellow Christian fellowship. Christian athletes were. Right. You get someone with a common affinity in athleticism or sports and then you get together in environments to figure out how to bring Christ into this. Yeah. And, and it's like, there's nothing like that here. And, and I just got, I just, again, I just felt the Lord saying, Dan, you need to do this. Well, there should be. I was just thinking there's a, there's a publication actually that's based here in Fort Collins and I've met the folks, uh, the Christian business directory. Yep. Like, it's a shame that they didn't have like a, at least a once quarterly conference they've got. Hundreds and hundreds of advertisers. I don't give many ideas now, Kurt they probably aren't listening but it's abundance anyway. Right? Absolutely. But, but I mean, you really did fill that void outside of, you know, businessmen might have known the business people that are in their church and had some affinity and stuff, but helping to understand there's a network of people that are trying to Yeah. Use those principles in their workplace and to frankly, to encourage them to do so. Yeah. So, you know, so they're not Monday morning atheist, it was a sim. Exactly. So it was a simple thing. You know, we wanted to try to create, so our first event, I think we had 30 people. Hmm. You know, and then the next one was 50, the next one's 70. And it just, like you've said, it just kind of mushroomed until Covid, you know, and now we're trying to work your way back. And we're getting back. Yeah. But, but, but we're you hundred 50 or 200 at that one this fall, I think, yeah. 1 75 this last time. And then we, we just branched out into Denver too. So we had about two 50 with. Both venues. Oh, good. We did two events the same day. And so, uh, but we were trying to find, trying to provide an environment where high inspiration mm-hmm. uh, high connection with, you know, so it's been cool, just like in the environments you're providing to hear the connections that are happening that we can't even plan or think about. Yeah. You know, people giving business to this person and that person. It's just so cool to hear that. I love hearing those stories, but then also to, to help them walk away with, hey, these are some leadership principles or paradigm shifts even that, that they can incorporate in their life and their business. Uh, even if it's just one thing. You know? Right. Yeah. And then hopefully to provide enough, uh, value there where for those that are interested in, in a next step experience, that, uh, they'll explore that. So I feel like it's a good time now to kind of explore the breadth of different Sure. Kind of things. You've got, you've got common pursuit. You've got these big events, which are called, what are those called? Yeah, so the big events we do three, four times a year is common pursuit. Oh, that's common pursuit. Yep. Okay. And so this might be a little confusing, but, but I just found, if nothing else, it helps me, but trying to create a different name with the different environments, you know, like you have a kitchen table, you have a living room, you have an enter room, you know? Yeah. It's, it's like that. Yeah. No, I think that's good. And that's a great name for that one, right. By the way. And so the, then the, the business groups that are kind of once a month kind of a thing, do you have a different name for them? Yeah. So if you kind of envision, uh, the funnel, you know, the, the bigger events are probably a little bit of our flagship. Come and see what we're about, a magnet, uh, connector. Yep. Yep. And then hopefully from there, kind of a next step is, uh, we have a monthly luncheon, which I'm gonna get you on the docket for 2023, man. Uh, for what we call work-life connect. Yeah. And that's just, a lunch and learn effectively. Right. Kinda. Absolutely. And you know, so last month we had 70 people at that. Nice. You know? Nice. Yeah. It was fantastic. And Jimmy Page, uh, some people might know Jimmy, that's listening, uh, came and spoke and become a really good friend and great communicator. Got some great books and, uh, and then so that, what I love about that, Kurt, is, is, you know, one of the things that struggled you, you asked if I'm still a pastor and Absolutely right. You know, so, so part of my heart is, you know, we have a target audience very similar to yours. Uh, but the thing I always wrestled with was like, well, what about the average Joe? You know, that's not necessarily, uh, a CEO or executive leader in the workplace. Mm-hmm. what can we provide them? Because the church is not providing it. Yeah. And so the work life Connect is, is a place for anyone and everybody. We have business owners, we have CEOs, uh, but we also have, we, it's interesting, you know, we, we have some people that are solo entrepreneurs. We have some people that are unemployed and they're trying to make connections. Right. So we just key leaders within organizations. Absolutely. So what, that's what I love about that environment. It's kind of a broad that I feel if nothing else would make me feel a little better. Right. You know? But I think we're providing value for those folks. Oh, for sure. But, but then the groups, you know, so we have a couple different groups options. Um, we have a businesses way we call it, which is very much like your, your type of groups and, and local think tank is, uh, uh, with business owners, key level executive leaders, uh, that get together for once a month. And, and we work on every aspect where ours might be a little bit different. You're, you're more content driven again than a little bit. Little bit. But I've changed a lot of that. Fair. Uh, so. So it's, it's a lot more open-ended, but it's, it's faith forward in everything. Right? And, and, and I think that's where I'm faith sneaky. You're faith forward, Exactly. And so, so, uh, you know, I I just think we're, we're hitting the market and need, uh, for certain leaders, uh, that's, that's unique that they really want. And then, but beyond that, one of the things I've, I've learned, Kurt, is uh, I'd love to share this cause I know you're not doing this piece in particular, but, um, you know, as you've seen this too, especially through Covid, you know, there was, people closed down their business and it was heart-wrenching for, for a lot of people and people that I knew in our groups that had to file bankruptcy and all that kind of thing. Um, but, but what I've seen, and I I, I think you've probably seen this too, is that you can help a person. Develop strategies, steps, and all that to become successful. Uh, and, and we, I was seeing that not just in people in my groups in the community, but their, their emotional inner world and their character were not matching the assignment that they'd been given. Hmm. And so they couldn't keep up with that level. Mm-hmm. And so a couple years ago, and this is something that's always been a part of, you know, even when I was pastoring, I started these immersive one year experiences for men. Mm. Yeah. Men in the marketplace. We call 'em Kingdom Way men. And, uh, it's, it's a very, uh, uh, it's kinda more a discipleship almost. It is, it's a monthly experience. But then we do a retreat, uh, overnight retreat. So we deal with a lot of the baggage things. We talked about spiritual practices, uh, we kind of call 'em experiential exercises to kind of bridge the head to heart gap. Yeah. And then the other thing I found that's really powerful that brings transformation to these men is, uh, uh, We have a, a, a couple's retreat. So we invest in their marriages too and in their life and in their business. Yeah. So that's a powerful combination. Uh, so that's been really fun and effective. And we we're starting one of those, another one of those, hopefully in January. We've got, uh, two of those going now, and hope to start a third. Uh, send me a link if you've got like a info page or something like that, I'll put it in the podcast notes. Okay, cool. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And then, um, uh, and then, you know, like, uh, the last two years I, I found myself doing a lot of coaching and almo and sometimes kind of counseling Yeah. And so that was what I was gonna ask, is that, uh, five capitals? Yeah. Is that the things that don't fit into the non-profit? Tent kind of in some ways Yes. Go over there and strategic stuff and whatever. So, so this is one of the partners we developed, we've developed a lot of partners through for the last 10 years, and five capitals become one of those. And I, I, I went through the training certification process with them and they got a lot of amazing tools that, that, uh, you know, the, the founders and organizers. So those are faith forward people, but all the tools that they've created is very neutral. And, but it's based on a lot of my own convictions that I love. Uh, but very practical, you know, you like, for example, um, most, most of your listeners probably heard of the EOS system and Sure. Maybe use elements of that. Yep. And, uh, TR Traction. Traction. You were mentioning traction earlier. I was like, do you know Traction? Yeah, exactly. And, and so they developed a, a process called the Seven Essentials of Business. That's, that has a lot of those types of principles in there. Mm-hmm. for full organizational management and goals and you know, big rocks and all that kind of thing. Right, right. So there's a lot of tools and so, so my my point is that we're like, I'm coaching 10 individuals right now. Wow. Personally. Oh wow. And then I've got another person that's we're built. I wish I had your battery man. That's one thing I don't have. I probably drink too much alcohol. That could be far. Kurt Uh, but so that's kind of our vision is we're, we're building these team of coaches and other facilitators. Well, you've got a couple of other facilitators now managing groups and helping do a lot of this stuff too. Yeah. Greg, Greg Berger's been an unbelievable, or one, one locker colleague and uh, and we've got some others stepping on board in January that's gonna go through the training and. And, uh, so, so, you know, that's one of the things you've done really, really well. So we're, I hope to be like you someday, coach many hands make light work, man. I don't like to work so hard. you just like to sit here and sip, sip drinks and, uh, talk, have podcast conversations. Yeah. Uh, so what else should people know about, uh, kingdom Way or how would they, maybe you wanna do a quick commercial look me up here? Yeah, sure. Come check out this event. Anything like that? Yeah. So we, uh, if you go to Kingdom way ministries.net.com.net. Okay. Uh, you can see, uh, like right now we have all of our work-life Connects events that we, for the next, uh, three events are up there and more to come. And, um, the first quarterly big event we have, we call com Pursuit, as you know. Yeah. We, we don't have up yet. And that's because, uh, it's a secret speaker that we're trying to lock in. Almost there. almost there. Yeah. But it's gonna be a good one. It's gonna be a good one. So, but they can track with us there. And, uh, Um, you could see some of the other things like, you know, the, about our, you know, under what we do, the groups and, uh, coaching and whatnot there. Uh, and then, you know, I just encourage people, if if you, you know, even if you're connected to Kurt in a group, you might find value to one of these events and you don't have to be involved in anything else. But, you know, if we can pull into you Yeah. Or frankly, if you're listening, you know, and you want a little more faith forward experience and local think tank's getting a little stale. I won't be mad if you want to check out. Yeah. So you, you got one of the guys that was in my group from Oh, is that right? Oh, I didn't know I picked somebody up. Yeah, no But, but he's loving it and uh, you know, he was in my group with me for I think four years. Right. Well, and sometimes just a change of territory is a nice thing. And he's in a different position now and, uh, what you're doing is, is scratching his itch a lot better. So I'm That's cool. And he still supports us and we're still friends and so It's awesome. Yeah. Um, I had a good question and then you threw off with, sorry, dude, snag one years. That's been long. I didn't know Idea did. Um, so I guess that's probably a pretty solid, um, oh, what I was gonna say now, I remember it was that, um, I, I really came pretty close to joining one of your groups. I had been out of membership with local Think Tank for a couple years, and I instead made the decision to join a Next Level group, which is like way outta my league. But, uh, that's been really good. But I guess just for listeners, I, I have a lot of respect for what Dan's put together and the people that have become part of his organization and part of his group, they're, yeah, they're great. So thank you brother and thank you. And, and I say the same with you, so we're gonna turn into the closing segment here. Do you need a potty break or anything? I'm good buddy. Whiskey brick. Oh, So faith, family or politics, which, where would you like to start? And it's kind of an open season from there, as you know. Yeah. I, I'll talk about anything, man. So, so wherever you want to go. I, I, I hold, uh, one of the things I'd really try to do is, is I really think the most powerful magnetic leadership is a transparent leadership. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, you can ask me anything about any of those, and I'll give you my opinions. Well, let's, let's do faith and, uh, what, what kind of habitual sin area is the biggest struggle point for you? Is it, is it gluttony? Is it looking at ladies? Is it greed? Is it sloth? Oh, man. I, you know, sorry, you said I could ask you anything. No, that's fine. My toughest one right away. You know, the, if you would've asked me, uh, early college years about ladies, that would've been an issue. But thankfully, God, God's helped me, uh, through that one. You know, I, I would say the biggest thing is, um, just existing in isolation and in some ways being a hypocrite, And I'll say, the reason I say that is because, uh, you know, all my life up until starting Kingdom Wade 10 years ago, I, uh, I, I, I think I did a pretty good job of making sure I had a few close-knit relationships that, that I could be real with and cha, you know, share anything and everything and say, Hey man, I'm struggling with this. Could you ask me about this and that? Mm-hmm. but, you know, when you're moving into brand new community, I was still touting that I'm still coaching people that, uh, and, and then I probably three years ago, maybe this is a good thing to say that, that, that I hope will be meaningful to people and, and I'll be really transparent about this, is I, um, I don't think I, I ever have been a person of huge pride in ego. Like I said, uh, I, if anything, I struggle with, uh, feeling. Um, less than, less than insecure. Maybe not insecure. I, I feel very secure. Imposter syndrome, I feel sometimes. Yeah. Inadequate. Yeah. And, and it's like, wow, what do I have? What am I doing this, you know, how can I be doing this? And I, so those are, but those are things that I've really worked out in my mind and, and a lot better at. But I, but I was not functioning in the communities I was developing. I hadn't, I didn't have that. You were distant from them. I was, you know, I was, had friends and things like that, but I, I didn't make myself accountable and transparent to a trusted group like we lead. Yeah. Well, and that's why, you know, I've been almost coming up on two years back in a chapter again, and I like my own medicine. Yeah. you know? Yep, yep. And so here, here's what happened. Kurt and I wanna share this because there might be some of your listeners that are feeling this right now, and if they're not, they might be in a season or they coming on a season. This has happened in their lives. Uh, I had a culmination. So just the last couple years, things have really exploded and we're in a lot better place in terms of, you know, finances, excitement, momentum. But, uh, right before Covid even was a, was a real thing. I had, I had started moving into this dark night of the solo experience that I, that I've never experienced in my life. And it wasn't because that I could de detect, uh, these areas of hidden sin in my life, you know? And believe me, I was asking those questions like, what am I missing here, Lord? And yeah. Uh, and, but, but I did not have true authentic community with people. Mm-hmm. And then I had all kinds of these crises, you know, financial crisis, you know, the engine blows up in the vehicle. And one of my sons was driving and ran through the garage door two different times and Yeah. Right. The hoa m my butt, because I had the, I dropped my phone and smashed the screen twice in a six month period when I could not afford irritating. Right. A phone to be broken. Exactly. And I did it to myself, and then our furnace and air conditioner go out. Yeah. So all these challenges, and plus I remember that time you kind of had a, you had a brave face and a, and a smile, but, I could, there was a sense of kind of desperation Oh, man, in, in your world for a little bit. It, it for almost a year. And I had some things with, with, uh, some of my sons that happened. That, that was, uh, very, very, uh, it just put me in a tailspin. And, and so that ha, that lasted for almost a year. And, and I tell you, you never shook your faith, I don't think, but No, but I, but for the first time in my life, since that 10 year old experience, I felt that God was not there at all. Mm-hmm. And I've never experienced that in my life. Right. And, and it got so bad. So it'd been, sorry, two years ago, this past June, um, I, I was up on, well, maybe, yeah, two years ago, this past June, I took a hike up on Kylie Ridge and, and I was so dark that I got to the edge and I, and I almost threw myself off. Wow. And, and I, and that, that's, Scared me big time and, and my wife didn't know what to do and, and I was, I started, you know, were you seeing a counselor or anybody, or you still isolating at that time? That was a, So, so, you know, then, then Covid would start hitting, you know, so it was October I started sensing this, and then the fullness of Covid came in February, March. And so that exacerbated everything. And I was, I was, uh, thinking, well, you know, it's gonna change, it's gonna change. And I, I, you know, I've had dark times before I've been criticized, I've been, you know, I've come out of it and I just kept thinking that, you know, something would snap and I'd come out of it and I, but I wasn't. Yeah. And so finally, it was probably six, seven months into it, I, I, I sought out a pastor, started sharing a little bit what was going on, and he, he, uh, was very, very helpful. And then I got involved, uh, I found out, uh, through those connections, some people was trying to help me, said, man, you really need to talk to this guy named Jeff Spora. Uh, Jeff used to be the director of, uh, halftime Institute Coaching Worldwide and wrote this book called, uh, the Joy Model, which is a fantastic book, and I use it in my men's groups now. Yeah, I actually, I think I was at one of your lunches. Yeah, he, yeah. Had a little page of that or a little bit of that. Yeah. So thanks for the, the plug again, Yeah. Yeah. It always comes back, you know, God gives us these relationships and a lot of these people become speakers and, uh, so I was talking with him, uh, o online and, and he was telling me, Dan, I, I'm just, I'm really excited for you. He was likes something you expected coach to say. Because I just think God's got you right where he wants you, and things are gonna be changing around. And I said, what are you smoking, man? You sound like Isaiah, his friends talking to him. So yeah. Whatever Jeff. But you know, or not Isaiah's, who's the dude that one throw the struggle? Uh, Jeremiah? No, the historic Old Testament, like God takes away all his cows and his kids and Oh yeah. Job. Yeah. Job, job. Yeah. How can we forget that? Right? When job's friends are like, Hey, it's gonna be fine. And you're like, I've got boils all over my body. You know, how, how does that spell out? Fine. All of my kids just died, you know? Exactly. I'm glad none of those things happen. But, but, but anyway, he, he's doing these, uh, groups called The Way with, uh, some executive leaders in Denver, and, and it was an expense and it was a, it's costly to drive down there once a month, but, but he did what sort of funerals. Yeah. And good way to say that man. You know? Yeah. So that, that was life changing. And, uh, how was that relationship with, uh, your wife through that time, like, It was, it was hard. I mean, uh, uh, my wife, she's terrified by this point. She was, Alonna has always been an incredible, incredible helpmate, and we've always had amazing marriage and. And, but that, that I think she was scared and she, she didn't know what to do. She was incredibly encouraging. I mean, I still got bookmarks of the verses that she was writing me and the prayers that she was praying for me. And, uh, and, but you know, one of the things that if I think about long enough, I'll start bawling here, but, um, her tissues written But, but, you know, and I've shared this even publicly in some of the speaking opportunities. So, so that's the other thing I get to do is I get to speak in different conferences and training sessions, which I love, but, but I try to bring purpose to the pain I've experienced by being, bringing in some of that stuff. Yeah. And, and I've, I've talked about how that, you know, there's things that I lost there in that year that I'll never get back. And, and it's not, you know, a loss of marriage, a loss of trust or anything, but, um, deep things that I feel. That I never thought I'd, uh, be in a place where I couldn't provide anything for my wife. Hmm. You know, emotional support, encouragement, you know, I felt I wasn't providing finances. Yeah. Uh, and you know, she weathered a really, really difficult year, and I wouldn't be here without her for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, God bless. Um, and I hope that, yeah, you know, you don't have a season like that Me too soon. But you know, like, is your face stronger after it Oh, in way, or is it actually dinged now? So, so I'd love to share just a couple thoughts along that that might bless some people that are listening because I, I can only imagine, uh, the people who follow you that, that there's some people listening that, that they're, like I said, in that season, going into it, and one is just isolation's a choice. Hmm. You know, that you don't have to make Yeah. And, and you can and it's not good for anybody. No, no. And so, you know, we, we need to find people that, that those trusted, collaborative, confidential, safe environments, you know, like what we're trying to provide in our groups, uh, or even just our counselor, the counselor therapist. Yeah. Our neighbor. And, and here's the other thing. So, so several things I think that really brought me out of that was just consistency. I still was doing my spiritual practices and things, and they, they didn't mean anything, but I didn't drop him. Yeah. And I, I was pressing through. And then, uh, I, I met with, uh, a pastor and, uh, I just, I'll just say his name because Yeah. A lot of people know shout, shout outs are welcome here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, so in addition to Jake Roberts, my pastor for life, who I'm called Shep Yeah. Yeah. Pastor Carl. I met, I met with Carl, and I just, I need to talk to Carl. Um, and, uh, and Carl's our foundation. Yeah. And, and a lot of people, I'm sure listening know Carl and experienced his heart for people. And he sat across the table with me and, and hopefully he'll listen to this because, and I've told them too, but, um, a lot of people in that situation would just say, come on, just suck it up. You know? Or like the coach, I told you about it, it's like he meant well and he, he has got the same kind of heart, but, uh, you know, I love where you're at. Things are gonna change, you know? Uh, but, you know, he, he really took in the gravity of it and then in tears in his eyes across the table. He just, Spoke life into me. Hmm. And blessing. And he just won after. Now this is what I see in you, Dan. You, you know, amazing marriage father, and you are the one of the most intense, disciplined people I know. One of the most just went on and on and on about what he saw in me. And I just felt something ignite and change. Hmm. And, and, and this is something now that, uh, that has made me a more powerful, impactful person is is, is just speaking life into people. Hmm. And, you know, there's times for high challenge. Yeah. Uh, for sure. But, um, speaking, blessing. So I went to this men's retreat and, and one of the exercises pretty intense, uh, Spiritu, immersive exercises. And, and you, you're with a group of three other guys. for like 15, 20 minutes and you're speaking blessing into each other. Uh, you speak it physically and you, you actually kneel before the other men and you receive it. Hmm. Powerful. Yeah. But then you stand up and you're locked arms and you speak blessing without any words for like 15 minutes. Wow. you know, I've heard some weirder stuff. Yeah. I know that sounds really weird, but I could still see the eyes of those guys and I could, I could sense what they're communicating Well and I feel like the, the laying of hands that a lot of churches do for prayer or to send off a new church plant or things, it's Yeah. Like, you know, we're, we're called not to devil in, you know, dance in the dark arts and, and things. Yeah. But there are definitely powers and sensations that, you know, I think that's why a lot of, uh, the way I imagine God is almost like the rest of the universe that you can't measure Yeah. Yeah. In some ways and is just all there, threading it all together and uh, sure. Well his ways are mysterious to us and we can't just cuz science can't prove it, doesn't mean he ain't real. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And just so anyone, we don't do that in our groups. fair. 15 minutes of staring at each other is, that's weird, but Yeah. Yeah. No, it was powerful. Uh, but you know, so, so those practices, just getting it in a community, having that, you know, that pastor speak life into you. And then, you know, here, here's one of the other things, the, just a combination of things, and I'll mention one other cuz this might be helpful, is, is I, I took a full day away, I went up to Des Park, I love to hike. I brought my journal your wife's like, don't go out any high point places. She didn't know that until just recently. Oh wow. She never knew that story, the fullness of it. Right. Um, and uh, so I went up and, and so Jeff, uh, I told you, he said, I, I, I got some questions I want you to journal on. And one of them was, what is it that you really, really want? Hmm. And, and here, so, here, here is the powerful thing is, is that I wanna share is I, uh, you know, just begging for God to give me some breakthroughs. And, uh, so I gave myself permission to just journal a journal about 10 pages. This is what I want. And I took kind of different quadrants. My spiritual life, my financial life, my discipleship, my speaking, you know, just every kind of component, uh, dimension of my life, and this is what I want. And I gave myself full permission just to, just to express that to God. Yeah. You might not get it all. Yeah. And, but, but here's what blocked me and my, my faith is like, well, I, I should not want what I want, but what God wants, right? Yeah. And, and, but, you know, three times in the gospels, uh, Jesus. what do you want? Yeah. And most times it was obvious a guy blind. Right. want us to receive my sight. Right. But it was that place that he put him in is to, to voice it, to acknowledge it. That that brought the change. Yeah. Yeah. And there's something like you said, mysterious about that. Well, and, and really I think, okay, what, what do I want? And not for me, God, but, but for you, what do you want me to be? Yeah. I, I was reminded when you were talking about your conversation with Carl and really kind of feeling reinvigorated for life. And there's a, I think it's still on my Facebook page as a favorite quote, uh, from Henry Ford. Uh, whether you think you can or think you cannot, you are correct. Mm-hmm. and like he really helped you to believe in you again. And that's what was kind of the most broken a little bit. Hmm. Yeah. No, no, that's good. That's good. Um, and I don't know, I don't even know if Henry Ford was a Christian or a thinker in that capacity, but it's, that's what I was hearing there. And that's probably, Carl recognized that within you and, and that you needed just a little encouragement Yeah. At that moment. Yeah, a absolutely. And we, and that's good. That's a good point. You know, was you gotta know when to speak life into someone and speak challenges. We need both. Mm-hmm. but, you know, he discerned that season. Yeah, that's great. Uh, but, but anyway, so this, this experience. Yeah, no, that I, I, I just wanna encourage those listening is, is to just dream about what you want. And if you're a person of faith or not, it, there's something powerful about just voicing it. So what came out of that time for me, and here's the other thing that kind of helped me, was, you know, I think about, well, it should be what you want, God. And I still believe that a hundred percent. I wanna fall in line with that. Um, but here, here's the thing. In Psalm 37, verse, uh, four, I believe it is, it's delight yourself and the Lord. And he'll give you the desires of your heart. Yeah. And, and sometimes he doesn't give it to us until we recognize it and vo voice it and own it. And then sometime we don't allow us to see that. A lot of times, if we're endeavoring, we're not perfect. But if we're endeavoring to follow what God wants, his desires are our desires. Right. He implants 'em I Did you read my blog last month? No. Oh. It was a fateful, grateful and plateful Oh, nice. About all the things we got going around, around here with the rebrand and new chapters and whatever. But the fateful part was where I spent most of my time. And um, the, where I kind of boiled down to is, well, I was talking about the, the intersection of God and free will. Right. And with something fateful, it's either faded to be and it's. You or God or anybody's control, or, you know, God bends the world a little bit. Right. For, for his purposes. And, and where I boiled it down was, you know, the goal is really to be partnered with God. Mm-hmm. you know, he's got the power, but you got the hands and the feet and the mind that are here on this earth right now. Yeah. And so if you're, if you're swimming in the same direction, you know you're gonna notice it if you're, if you're bumping your head against Absolutely. It's not his plan. Right. And so that, that kind of goal of just like seeing how, you know, whether you're in the flow or you're, you know, in God's path or whatever, they're all kind of different phrases for the same experience, which is being for sure doing what you're supposed to be doing For sure. But, but I think there's something liberating about that as, and this is what I've found in my, a lot of my coaching is, is oftentimes people don't really know what they want. Yeah, totally. And, and that, that is a powerful gift I can help 'em with. Yeah. You know, and so I, I labeled all this out and I came down to, to like, uh, three buckets. One was speaking more, training, more, uh, uh, coaching and then discipleship or transformation through groups 1 0 1 and so on. And I came up with just kind of, uh, what I thought to be at that time, you know, the, the big Harry Gold concepts. And it's been amazing. I, you know, I just spent some time this last weekend journaling on this and, and I've blown by every single one of them That's awesome. In, in each category. That's really great. Um, Let's move on to your family. Okay. Uh, yeah, you've had a lot, lot of nice things to say about, uh, El El Iona. Yeah. Iona. Gosh, it's such a hard name for me to remember for some reason. Yeah. Tell me about, was that, uh, love at first sight? What was it about, uh, she and you that attracted the two of you together? Well, I, I noticed her. I mean, she's very, very, uh, a appealing and, uh, she's a very attractive person. Uh, a little exotic, uh, yeah. You think Bermuda, like Bermuda, Bahama right. It's kind of, kind of cool. Well, plus you're a Wisconsin kid, right? Exactly. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So that was the first attraction. But, you know, her kindness, her care for people, her ability to just light up a room with her presence, you know, those things. And then her faith, her deep faith, uh, really attracted me to her. And I, I know looking back, uh, she was a lot more mature than I was. And, uh, she had a huge, huge impact more than I realized, uh, on my own spiritual journey. Yeah. Because I, I wanted to be the man that God wanted me to be for her as we became more, you know, serious about dating and thinking about marriage and things. But at first she thought that I was just a Don Juan and you know? Right. One of many Swae You were, what was your fa you were just a, a student at that time, so you hadn't done anything yet? No, necessarily. No. Yeah. Uh, so, so actually, you know, she, she kind of fell for me. Quicker than I did for, cause I was a Don Juan Right. And then she was like, wait a second, why so Sure. Yeah. So, but she, she won me over around, uh, for sure over time. And, uh, so we dated, uh, for a couple years and then, you know, we got engaged and she had lived in Bermuda. So she went, she got, she had graduated already. So she went back and worked for a year in Bermuda. Oh wow. and maybe we had to, you had to leave even because of visas and things like that. Probably. Yeah. So, so we were working on the fiance petition and then, you know, we got married and jumped into full-time ministry. I was still senior my, my senior year, and she, you know, we jumped into a church I had on staff even while I was finishing up school and been together ever since. Wow. So she's been there every step of the way, just about any professional journey. Yeah. And what's kind of fun now is, you know, earlier on with, before we had kids, we did everything together, you know, it was like pastoring and, uh, now it's been kind of fun because she's got some incredible gifts and things to offer women and anyone. Uh, but you know, she, it's been fun to, we've done these coupled retreats together. Mm. Sweet. And she, she, Portions of 'em with me. Nice. Nice. Well, and she's probably got some free space opened up. Your, your youngest is a little more self-sufficient. Now. Your boys are almost, how old are your boys? My boys are 21 and they're in the Navy. Okay. Both of them? Yep. Are they best buddies and No, not, not really. They, they're kind of, they're both in California now at least, instead of on separate coasts, which they were for a while, but, um, they, they connect, but not, not as much, you know, they, they got their own lives, but they, they stay connected, but not as tight as they were. I, uh, if you've listened, you know that I ask for a one word description of your kids. So, uh, would you be willing to name both of your sons and then, uh, follow up with your daughter and all with a one word description? That's a challenge, buddy. Yeah, no, that's, you're putting me on the spot here, so, no, Seth, Seth and Joel are the by twins. Um, Seth is a sub submariner in San Diego, and I would say, That, uh, he is a jovial person and he really connects with people who kind of loves life and just fun, whimsy and, and humor and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's a nice word. Yeah. And how about, uh, Joel? And Joel is, uh, in, in linguistics intelligence in, uh, Monterey. He's just, just brilliant and I would say that, that he is a, uh, creative free. I, uh, person, you know, historically when I heard the term linguistics, I didn't really know what that means, but, uh, Alison Sebe, uh, you must know Alison, by now, I'm mm-hmm. I know of her. Yep. She's, uh, that was her college education, is that right? Linguistics. And she educated me a little bit, and it's a complicated thing for really smart people. Yeah. So kudos on that. Yeah. Yeah. So he's studying Persian Oh, wow. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, we might need it, uh, depending on how things going around here. No kidding. Months and years ahead. No kidding. Um, so last, uh, uh, but not least, she's your daughter. Yeah. So, Isabella, she's 15. Yeah. I met her. And, uh, someone, one of the unique things about our kids and our story and our journey is speaking family, you know, talking about that all of 'em are adopted. So special, special, amazing stories with each one of them. So she's from Guatemala and I, I, I, so Isabella means consecrated to God or beautiful. And one of the things that, that I, I'm speaking in to her is that, that she is a rescuer. Hmm. And I, and so I tell her, I said, you are concentrated, consecrated to God and you've been designed to rescue and help people. And, uh, she, she just loves people and she kind of gravitates towards the outcast and Yeah. Yeah. Goes after 'em, tries to make 'em feel comfortable. And you know, there's a downside to that too. That is a challenge sometime if, if, you know, especially teens trying to figure out who they they are and all that. Yeah. Some of 'em are dangerous. They can get sucked in. And so, you know, we've had some challenges there, but she's doing great. Uh, and, and with that, but she has a huge heart for people. That's sweet. That's sweet. Um, any other things you'd like to say about family in general or even about your folks or your siblings? Um, you know, I, I. You know, I, this is one thing that I think it's very easy for people that maybe, maybe listen to your podcast and follow you. It's so easy, isn't it? When, when we have all these career vocational goals and aspirations and, you know, these drives, it's, it's so easy to forget the importance of family. Hmm. Uh, until you don't have it anymore. Hmm. and, and so, you know, the work-life balance is an oxymoron that I just don't agree with, but, but there is, there is a prioritized life and leadership and, and if, if we don't prioritize, uh, being healthy givers and leaders to our families, we really have nothing. And, and, uh, so that would be my, my, my thought. The pastor's heart coming outta me. And the reason I say that is because, you know, I'm, I'm coaching some folks now where they're, they're having a rough time and you know, they've lost their spouse because of choices they've made or what have you. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be that way, but, you know, even in terms, I think one of the things we're all, regardless of where you're on the spectrum of, you know, faith, religion, politics, or whatever, we're all looking for and longing for a greater sense of meaning and satisfaction and mission. Meaning and mission. Right. And, and so I've thought about this often as like, probably I would say one of the most difficult locations in the world is being a pastor. I mean, you got the expectations of every single person. And I've never been so criticized. I've never so been so brutally treated, right. As a pastor, uh, and what I've done outside of that. Um, but I always. Had a refuge in my home, you know, and I'd come home and, and it's like, God, thank you for this. Mm. You know, so, so that is worth fighting for doing whatever that we possibly need to or can do, not just to preserve or maintain, but to make incredibly healthy and full of meaning and joy. Yeah. Yeah. I dig it. Um, time to move on to politics, but, uh, I don't know if I'm the best guest for politics, man. uh, is it just not something you follow or you, you, I, you know, I do a little bit and, uh, you know, I think probably my, my, uh, what I enjoy doing the most is people of faith, you know, like a Rob Woodward, Don over cash. And I really, really, Uh, supporting those individuals and praying for 'em hard, uh, because, uh, they're needed. And it's a brutal, brutal, I guess maybe politics and pastors, uh, might be some location up uh, but you know, they just get land blasted on so many fronts and, uh, uh, so I try to support, encourage those people a lot. I had, uh, Tom Lucero on here some six or eight weeks ago. I don't know if you know him, but, uh, he's been a re conservative strategist of sorts and served in some office here and there. And, and, uh, He and Leah Johnson together have a leadership development program. Leah's, Leah's kind of role. Yeah. She's great too. So anyway, uh, he was pitching me on kind of checking this program out a little bit and I've got some notions of political office. But during our podcast, he said, you know, there, there's three things. You got, you know, your, your business and your family and your, your political office, and almost everybody can only keep two of them working good. Mm. Uh, and so if you get into political office, you know, expect some, some struggling to, which my response was, is it okay if I just focus on my business and my family and half on the political side, because I don't want my family or my business to struggle Yeah. For that service. And that's I think, part of the challenge of politics. And today, and you referenced it even in, in mentioning Don and, and, uh, Rob, that there's a, there's a toll a lot of times. Times there's a cost, a mental emotional, at least. if not financial or even character. You know, it's like, uh, you get, you get land blasted and, and, and, and whether a lot of that stuff is totally malicious and false. Uh, but it sticks with people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I, I gotta tell you a story. So, so for example, Um, I get a call one PA pastor. I get a call one day from another pastor, said, Dan, I I just had to hear it from, from you cause I just can't believe it. Cause I, you're, you're a person of integrity, but I heard you are embezzling money from the church and that you're getting fired. Oh shoot. Oh snap. I mean, So like, wow, where did that come from? And, you know, all these accusations that float around that just stick with you and Right. You know, and I really believe, and this is one of the things I try to encourage, you know, and those that are in political realms, man, I just so thank you for what you do because it's detail and stuff that, you know, I just gloss over. I see the importance of it, but, but I, I just can't imagine being in that, that world. So I'm so grateful for those people. You don't have a future life in politics. No. period of the story. probably not. Who, uh, who do you think, um, if you, do you have somebody like. National stage wise that you think is doing a really good job? Like, are, are you a Trump guy? Are you a a DeSantis guy? Are you, you know, are they all just a bunch of goofs, You know, I just, I just wish Trump would have some filters, you know, and then some, sometimes. So, yeah, no, I was joking with my friend Aaron Everett on the most recent podcast and, uh, we basically described the Republican party as the Washington Generals. Yeah. Which is the team that plays the Harlem Globe prodders and gets beat up all the time. And it is just the perennially losers, no real leadership or anything like that, you know, I, I, it's just so, so he. Here's something, you know, year, years ago, they used to talk a lot about, uh, privatization, you know, the concept of you can be one thing personally and one thing in public. Mm-hmm. And now we've seen, you know, 20 years later, the, for the, the, the full, we have a personal brand now. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, I guess I, I love it when people, so, so here for anybody aspiring to political offices, here's one thing I wanna encourage you with is, is some of the people, like, and, and I'm not saying this about Heidi, but I saw some of your posts about Heidi. Yeah, yeah. And I really liked a lot of things that she stood for and, and I was really kind of rooting for her, you know, personally. Yeah. She came on my podcast. I know, I know, man. So, so thanks lady. So, so I loved that. And uh, and I'm not saying this about her at all, but, but what I've noticed is, is some people that do get a platform and, um, Have strong convictions and we need strong leadership and I believe we need strong characters. So we're people that what they're doing in public is the same who they are in private. I, I would go for anybody, even if I disagreed on certain positions with them. Yeah. For that reason. Cuz we need that Right. In our country, in our communities. That's right. That's like, when you were talking about Trump, I was like, well the one thing that, the one, the one thing maybe that I really appreciated about him is like, you know, he means shit when he says it. Yeah. Like there's somebody whispering in his ears what to say cuz he just says shit. And that's one of the things that made him so popular and or attractive to people, you know, it's just like, oh man, if you could just learn a little filters on Twitter, Twitter attack. Yeah. You know, it's like, stuff like that. But, but, but here, here, here's what I'm, I I want to encourage is, is I think we need a wise political leaders where. Um, so one, one of the enlightening things I experienced, I, I took, I, I took part of this leadership program very similar to other communities like Fort Collins and Loveland Sure has this leadership development, and I went to the Capitol and I saw all the ins and outs of what transpired mm-hmm. In Nebraska. And I just, I walked away from there thinking even greater appreciation for political leaders, but also is like, if I ever did get called in that arena, is that it's okay to not always voice the strength of your conviction. Hmm. Yeah. To, to gain support. Uh, and, and this is kind of the wise, uh, how's that saying Go innocent as doves wise serpents. Mm-hmm. you know? Yeah. And I think some political people shoot themselves in the foot by being too dogmatic and too forthright in some certain issues when they compare back a little bit and just not really gonna chase off quite as many. Yeah. I did this as a pastor in some ways, and I know that's gonna sound heretical for people of faith, but, but there were certain issues that I knew that could blow up and divide a church. Mm. and I'd be very soft in those issues. Not public, hardly ever. And if someone asked me directly, I would answer them, but very, very carefully. Hmm. What are those issues? Yeah, we could get you talked about free will. There's some context there. Right, right. Like the free, free will and pre destination. There's some joke that the, A Presbyterian falls down the stairs. He is like, oh, I'm sure glad that's over. Or something like that. That's good. Anyway, um, well, I think that's a good recap here. Um, our final segment and which is good because I'm, I gotta have a potty break here soon, so don't go run too long on this one. Sure. Your local experience. Yeah. The craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to describe. For sure. My, my most crazy experience. Yeah. Um, Well, I mean, the Cav Ridge seemed pretty crazy, but uh, that was, yeah, so, so preaching to 3000 pastors in Liberia is pretty crazy. Uh, most recently I went skydiving, so I got to my bucket list. This, this year I went skydiving. And then, uh, the other bucket list thing I did, I did long long's Peak. Nice. Uh, from two in the morning till five in the afternoon. Nice. It was, uh, one of the most physically demanding things I've ever done, but, uh, that was pretty crazy. You recommend it? I do. I haven't done it yet, but I've been thinking about it. It was, uh, before I get too old. Yeah. Well that's one of the reasons I did, I'm 53, man, so I was like, I, I better, better do this pretty soon, Right, right. No, it was awesome. It was awesome, but, but the most crazy thing, leaving everything and coming here. Right. I mean that was probably the most, most biggest leap of faith for sure. Crazy thing I've ever done in my life. Yeah. You know? Are you glad, like you could just be like a lead pastor at some other big church somewhere, right? Yeah, no, I'm super glad cuz uh, I mean, so, so here, here's what, just in the last two years, I think for the first five years I knew I'd go through identity crisis is like, I didn't really feel like a fitful in the church anymore. I didn't feel like a fit yet in the business world. And, and now I, I know I fit and I bring the bo best of both those worlds. I think you kni them together. Yeah. And, and uh, and I just love what I'm doing and someone, if they were to recruit me for a lead pastorate position and give me boku dollars, I, I would never do it. Yeah. And, and I believe that there are some that even look at what I'm doing is like, I wish I could do that. Do you dream about. Having Kingdom Way grow beyond like Northern Colorado and Denver. Is Denver a first step toward expansion? Yeah, so part of our vision is like we want to take, we've been been blessed to get some pretty fabulous speakers, uh, connected to us. And so our vision is like, man, I'd love to, for our events anyway, is Yeah. Is to take that same person while they're in town do to event here Northern Colorado. Cause I just think face-to-face and local is so powerful and I never wanna lose that. Yep. And then, uh, transplant that into Denver, which we started doing and I'd love you even do Cheyenne, you know, you just got three different places. Yeah. And you know, so one of the scriptural principles is, uh, You know, be my witnesses Acts one, eight and Jerusalem, Judea and Samari, and then they uttermost parts of the world. Yeah. So we're really focusing on our region. Yeah. And then, uh, you know, I'm already doing some, I do, we do, I don't know if you know this, but, uh, I, I, I got, uh, we, we got a Liberia ministry. Oh, you do? We have a weekly radio program that reaches four countries there. Oh, wow. I didn't know the idea. Yeah. And then, uh, we, we, uh, I, I was Trinidad Tobago. I did a conference with a CEO there this past spring. And so we're trying to do really hard for third world kind of stuff, trying to do some groups there. And so, but, but as far as nationally, I, I'm. I can't share a lot, but I think it's coming. Yeah. Well I think you got some big things coming still, so, uh, uh, re remind everybody I guess one more time where to snoop out Kingdom. Yeah. If you, if you, if you are interested in anything you like, uh, what you've heard today, uh, check us out on Kingdom way ministries.net and you can go to all the things there. We have most, uh, everything we do that I've talked about today on there. And, and if you want to connect with me, just uh, hit the contact button, send me an email, love to connect with you, with call coffee, zoom or whatever. Put yourself on the mailing list there even. Uh, yep. Yeah, it's great organization, so thanks for spending the time, brother. Man. It's been a enjoy. It's been fun, God sake. Thanks for hosting me. You too. I love it.